Joe Rogan Experience #2440 - Matt Damon & Ben Affleck — Full Transcript

0:40

Stan comes out with his mask on. No, the

0:42

first thing I hear is PIG

0:44

PIG [laughter] AND

0:46

I'm like, what is happening in there?

0:47

It's in the other room. And Stan comes

0:49

in with his mask on. He goes, he goes,

0:51

sorry. He goes, I'll be with you soon.

0:52

He goes, I got Hunter in the chair. And

0:54

he goes [laughter] back and I hear

0:55

listen to to Hunter Thompson swear for

0:58

like 15 minutes. I'm like, "This is

0:59

amazing." And then Stan goes, "Okay,

1:01

come on back." And Hunter's kind of

1:02

getting out and he goes, "Oh, you're

1:04

sitting down with this guy. He's a

1:06

assassin." [laughter]

1:09

And then he goes and he's got this jug

1:12

of clear uh of clear fluid and he's

1:16

like, "You're going to need a sip of

1:17

this." And I'm like, "Oh my god, this is

1:19

Hunter S. Thompson's moonshot."

1:21

[laughter] I'm like, "This is ethyl

1:22

alcohol." Like this is amazing.

1:25

I'm talking to this dude for 30 seconds

1:27

and I'm getting a sip and like

1:29

[laughter] and it was like 10:00 in the

1:30

morning on a Sunday.

1:31

>> Yeah.

1:32

>> He was halfway through the drug

1:35

like where was this

1:36

>> in Beverly Hills? [laughter] Yeah. Yeah.

1:40

>> Yeah. Brentwood. Yeah. Brentwood was

1:41

stand office. Yeah.

1:42

>> Oh my god. That's amazing. It was it

1:44

really was amaz It was it was and I so I

1:46

had probably a total of seven minutes,

1:48

you know, with him and it was like I I I

1:50

it could I could not have been a better

1:52

seven minutes.

1:52

>> That's incredible. I went to the Woody

1:55

Creek Tavern just to go there cuz I know

1:56

he used to go there and like you could

1:58

like feel him in the building. You know,

2:00

there's all the pictures in the walls.

2:02

It's cool little place.

2:03

>> I mean those books Hell's Angels

2:05

and and you know, Fear and Loathing is

2:07

some of the best writing. I I just

2:09

like he really had his own

2:11

voice. Rum Diary was spectacular, you

2:14

know? It was like really descriptive and

2:15

punchy and interesting and

2:17

up. And he also just lived that

2:19

life. It was like

2:19

>> Fear and Loathing changed my life. Like

2:21

reading that book was like, "What the

2:23

fuck?" Like, "What is this guy doing?

2:26

[laughter]

2:26

Grown men out there balding grown men

2:29

with spectacles running around.

2:31

>> I think there's lizards in the

2:33

[laughter] lounge. Like, you guys are

2:34

loosening." And he's got a day trip bag

2:38

filled with acid. Like, what the

2:40

are you doing, man? That was [snorts]

2:42

and it's great It's like you're

2:43

you feel like you're on the

2:45

adventure with him, you know?

2:46

>> Yeah. No, it's a it's it's interesting

2:49

to watch the the evolution of his

2:50

writing too, you know? Like I read

2:52

Hell's Angels and it's like very

2:54

different, you know, but it's

2:55

>> and that's early when he's kind of

2:56

restrained and it was quite like for

2:58

that I think it was edgy sort of for the

3:00

time, you know, like oh you're going to

3:01

get beat and chain whipped and stomped

3:03

by the angels and that was really edgy

3:05

and by the time they got to what was

3:06

fairly 72 or something like that,

3:09

>> you know, he was just

3:10

>> Yeah, he was there. He found his voice.

3:12

>> He did find [laughter] he was supposed

3:14

to be covering a race for like Sports

3:17

Illustrated. [laughter]

3:18

>> That's where Fear and Loathing came

3:20

from. But I lost my mind.

3:23

[laughter]

3:24

>> Great. It's great, Hunter.

3:26

>> We'll take it.

3:27

>> Well, hey, it's very nice to meet you

3:28

guys. I've met you before, but very nice

3:30

to meet, man. Thank you very much. I

3:32

love the movie. The rip is

3:34

great. It's really good. It's so

3:36

original and it's so it's so different

3:38

and it's, you know, it's like I love

3:40

those kind of movies, but it's not like

3:42

any one that I've ever seen before.

3:45

Really solid movie.

3:45

>> Thanks, dude. Thank you.

3:46

>> It was awesome. so [clears throat] much

3:48

better than you hating it and having

3:49

[laughter]

3:50

the interviews where they're like, "So,

3:51

I saw the movie anyway. How you guys

3:52

been?"

3:53

>> We've had we've had a lot of those the

3:54

junk the press junkets where they come

3:56

in and the first thing that you know the

3:58

movie sucks if if they don't ask you

4:00

anything about the movie, they come in,

4:01

they go, "So, how you been?"

4:02

>> You know, and you're like, "Oh

4:03

this is going to be bad."

4:04

>> Is it weird like the the transformation

4:08

of the film industry seems to like a lot

4:10

of it is moving towards these big

4:12

streaming movies now?

4:14

>> Absolutely. I mean, look, it's because

4:16

where most people have gone to watch

4:18

them, right? Like,

4:19

>> used to be the only place you go see

4:21

movies in the 40s. Like, every American

4:23

went to the movie every week basically.

4:24

But it was because it was that or watch

4:26

the cows walk by. You know, that was the

4:28

only and then TV comes around. It's

4:30

little and you see these little cals.

4:33

But you know what happened was now this

4:34

is why this totally changed the whole

4:37

thing because you got 300 million people

4:39

330 whatever it is watching you know

4:41

Netflix and it's a lot harder to get

4:44

people to go into the movies. There's

4:45

also YouTube. There's also Tik Tok.

4:46

There's also my kids like it's hard to

4:48

get them excited about a movie. Yeah.

4:50

That's what we had. I mean

4:52

>> Yeah. That was our I mean our teen years

4:55

were just every weekend we're at the

4:56

movies.

4:57

>> Yeah.

4:57

>> Um there's just no question about it.

4:59

that you were going to go and usually

5:00

not get into one cuz there were too many

5:01

people and then you just see what else

5:02

is playing and go to that.

5:04

>> Well, it seems like it was kind of

5:05

slipping away because so many people

5:06

were watching streaming already and then

5:08

CO came around and everyone was locked

5:10

down and no one was going to the movie

5:12

theater and then it just set it.

5:14

>> I had this like drama that was coming

5:15

out like right when CO hit. I really

5:18

like the movie performance movie. It's

5:19

an alcoholic guy whose kid guys kid dies

5:22

and becomes an alcoholic. It's dark

5:24

movie but I I loved it and I could tell

5:26

like we're No one's going to go

5:27

to see the theater, see this movie. And

5:29

it wasn't even that streaming streaming

5:30

really blew up, you know, of course

5:32

during co. So, you know, look, they

5:34

rushed it onto streaming. People

5:35

actually saw it. I was like, look, all

5:37

things being equal, I'd like people to

5:38

see it, you know, and it's not like my

5:40

dad had an 11in black and white TV and

5:42

that's what was TV viewing now. It's

5:44

like $200, you got a 65 in flat

5:46

screen like and good sound. So, of

5:48

course, people are willing to and then

5:50

streamers also started making great

5:52

shows. You have adolescence. I don't

5:54

know if you saw. I think that's one of

5:55

the best things ever done.

5:57

>> I haven't seen out of unbelievable.

5:58

>> What is it?

5:59

>> Oh my god. It's a It's a It's I I don't

6:02

want to spoil too much of it. It's only

6:03

four episodes.

6:04

>> They're all one shot.

6:05

>> They're all one shot. Each episode is

6:07

one entire shot.

6:08

>> Whoa.

6:08

>> So, the cast they took, I think, I

6:10

talked to the director about it. The

6:11

cast took I think a week to rehearse

6:13

each one and then a week to shoot it.

6:16

And so, so they they do it twice a day.

6:18

It's the full hour. They would

6:20

choreograph the entire thing. Yeah.

6:22

That's really

6:23

>> And then the acting is great.

6:24

>> But that's that I mean just dismiss that

6:27

even you could even call it a gimmick.

6:29

It's not in this case. But um the

6:32

performances and the writing and what

6:34

it's about it's it's as good as anything

6:37

you'll see. It's it's phenomenal.

6:39

>> What is it on?

6:39

>> Netflix.

6:40

>> Netflix. Yeah.

6:41

>> You know, you have like it's not this is

6:43

not even an anomaly. There's Baby

6:44

Rangers. There's Succession.

6:45

There's Game of Thrones, Ozarks. You

6:48

know, it's just like, okay, well,

6:50

they're doing great out there. It's

6:52

not like the sort of implied thing

6:54

before was like, yeah, well, TV's not as

6:56

good. We're not as interesting. It's a

6:58

serious

6:58

>> When we started, it was a there was a

7:00

different I I mean, like George Clooney,

7:01

for instance, like there was a big

7:03

thing, you know, he very famously, you

7:05

know, became this superstar on ER. That

7:08

show, 40 million people a week were

7:09

watching that show. It was the biggest

7:11

thing, right? Because [snorts] there

7:12

were only a few channels to tune into,

7:14

and that show was the biggest one. and

7:15

and George never renegotiated his

7:18

contract. He wanted to work in movies

7:19

and it was like you can't go from TV to

7:21

movie. It's very hard. Very few people

7:23

can do it

7:24

>> and he really strategically and kind of

7:27

patiently like he joked that on the last

7:30

episode he was on Anthony Edwards, you

7:32

know, his co-star was making a million

7:34

bucks for the episode and he was making,

7:36

you know, 20 grand or whatever his deal

7:38

was. Like he could have renegotiated but

7:40

he would have had to give more years.

7:41

>> That's how bad he wanted to get off TV

7:44

and do movies. That's how bad he wanted

7:45

to get off of the biggest TV show in the

7:47

world. Um because the there was such a

7:50

big kind of level change between

7:51

features and and TV.

7:53

>> Well, it was a giant difference in

7:54

quality. It was also this the breaking

7:56

it up for commercials, right?

7:58

>> It was just a different experience.

7:59

>> It couldn't be, you know, there was all

8:00

these rules like you can't say this, you

8:02

can't do that, you can't swear of

8:04

violence and n all the things people

8:05

want to see in movies, you know, and

8:06

then

8:07

>> and also it wasn't it wasn't as

8:09

interesting. And then now that's like

8:11

tethered to these schedules and all this

8:12

stuff or you get this like you

8:14

don't have a schedule and and you can

8:16

take a bunch of risks. So and that

8:18

started happening and then it was kind

8:20

of like well this all is just as good if

8:22

not better than what's in the movies and

8:24

>> well then movies started to move towards

8:25

more IP and

8:27

>> because it was hard to get people come

8:28

to the movies. everyone got scared and

8:29

thought, well, you have it there has to

8:30

be a sequel or a superhero movie.

8:32

>> And so an interesting little movie kind

8:35

of in the '9s when we kind of came onto

8:37

the scene, you know, there were a lot of

8:39

really good independent movies that were

8:40

being made. There was there was, you

8:42

know, it was a really great time to be

8:44

making movie. People were they were

8:46

making daring movies and and and then

8:48

everyone just got way more conservative

8:51

because it's huge. Like the business is

8:53

so different theatrically and streaming

8:55

because to put out a movie theatrically,

8:58

you have to put so much more money

8:59

behind it to publicize. Like you're

9:02

trying to get everybody

9:03

>> spending about what the budget was to

9:04

make it to advertise it because you got

9:06

50% of the theatrical.

9:07

>> Yeah. Because you split it with the the

9:08

the movie house, right? The exhibit.

9:10

>> So $25 million movie to break in. You

9:11

got to make $100 million. And so and and

9:14

you got to get everybody to not only

9:16

know about the movie but to show up like

9:18

that Friday night like that specific

9:20

time, you know, for that specific movie.

9:22

And so did and to cut through all the

9:23

noise that you people are contending

9:26

with. And you know,

9:26

>> so it just becomes about risk and nobody

9:28

wants to take the risk. So they don't

9:29

want to make something new because it's

9:30

such an investment. We're going to lose

9:31

all our money. And the streamers

9:34

stepped into that and like no, you know,

9:36

you didn't have to necessarily have a

9:37

star. You could try something more

9:38

interesting or didn't have to be a

9:40

superhero movie, whatever it was. And

9:42

also, I think it's like, you know,

9:44

frankly, like people my age, like it's

9:47

first of all, it's expensive, right? You

9:48

take your whole family, it's $100.

9:50

You're on a streaming service, $20 a

9:51

month. You can watch all you want. So,

9:52

you can't be cavalier about like you're

9:55

just going to price it however the

9:56

you want and expect everyone to like be

9:58

indifferent to that. And then, you know,

10:00

also,

10:02

you know, the idea of like for me, you

10:04

know, there's a lot of stuff I make that

10:05

decision like, do I want to see the

10:07

Odyssey on on a big screen? def.

10:09

I went to a theater to just watch the

10:10

trailer for that movie and you know did

10:12

I at one battle after another I wanted

10:13

to go see in the theater but there's

10:15

movies with people that I really like

10:16

and respect where yeah and I got a good

10:18

system and but I'm like look I'll

10:20

watch and I might get tired or I won't

10:22

pause it and take a piss or the kids you

10:23

know whatever it is

10:25

>> that's conducive to my lifestyle you

10:27

know and so and most I see few I think

10:29

most people are yeah

10:30

>> but there is the experience of seeing it

10:32

with a bunch of other people see an

10:33

awesome movie with a bunch of other

10:34

people it's like a shared experience

10:36

>> 100% I I always like

10:39

way more attent like like when I went to

10:41

see one battle on IMAX like you know

10:43

that feeling there's nothing like that

10:45

feeling I took you know two of my kids

10:46

and two of my nephews and my wife and we

10:49

all went and it was just it was like and

10:51

you're in with you know a bunch of

10:53

strangers but people in your community

10:55

and you're having this experience

10:56

together. I always say it's more like

10:58

going to going to church like you show

11:00

up at an appointed time you you know

11:02

what I mean? doesn't,

11:04

you know, the the experience of watching

11:08

at home. I think,

11:09

>> you know, you're watching in a room, the

11:10

lights are on, other shit's going on,

11:12

the kids are running around, the dogs

11:13

are running around, whatever it is. You

11:15

know what I mean? It's just a very

11:16

different level of attention that you're

11:18

willing to or that you're able to give

11:20

to it. And that has a big effect. And it

11:22

also ends up having an effect or is

11:24

starting to have an effect on how you

11:27

make movies. Like for instance, Netflix

11:30

um you know standard way to make an

11:32

action movie that we learned was you

11:34

know you usually have like three set

11:36

pieces. One in the first act, one in the

11:38

second, one in the third and you know

11:39

you kind they kind of ramp up and the

11:41

big one with all the explosions and you

11:42

spend most of your money on that one in

11:44

the third act. That's your kind of

11:45

finale. Um and now they're, you know,

11:48

they're like can we get a big one in the

11:50

first five minutes to get somebody, you

11:51

know, we want people to stay

11:53

>> Yeah. tuned in and and can and you know

11:56

it wouldn't be terrible if you

11:58

reiterated the plot three or four times

12:00

in the dialogue because people are on

12:02

their phones while they're watching.

12:03

[laughter]

12:03

You know what I mean?

12:04

>> And so then it's going to really start

12:06

to infringe on how we're telling

12:09

>> but then you look at adolescence who

12:10

didn't do any of that. It

12:11

>> didn't do any of that great. You

12:13

know what I mean? So I think it's and

12:14

it's dark too. It's tragic and intense.

12:17

this like guy who's finds out these kids

12:20

accused of murder and it's like you know

12:23

and and there's long shots in the back

12:25

of their head. They get in the car,

12:26

nobody says anything. I think there are

12:28

those look the these were feels more

12:31

like the exception. It's so masterfully

12:34

[snorts] made that it feels a little

12:36

more like the except I hope it's not. My

12:37

feeling is just that it demonstrates

12:39

that you don't need to do any of that

12:40

to get people, you know what I

12:42

mean? Like,

12:42

>> and I think, you know, yes, you know,

12:44

like, look, hey, the town had the action

12:46

thing in the beginning, the first five

12:47

minutes cuz, you know what I mean? Like,

12:49

it's a it's a common trick that you

12:50

would go like, let me grab them and get

12:52

him invested in the it's like the movies

12:54

that start with the hero hanging from

12:55

the cliff and now we're going to flash

12:57

back to the beginning and tell you how

12:58

they got there. Um it's it you know I

13:02

always feel like uh you know complaining

13:04

about it makes me feel like one of these

13:05

guys was like when I was a boy like you

13:06

always want to freeze the culture at the

13:08

time when you I don't know felt more

13:10

like you know we used to have these

13:12

phones the are all these phone and

13:13

everybody's looking at their I get it

13:15

yes it's true also it's like supply and

13:18

demand people want to look at their

13:19

phone they can look at TikTok they want

13:20

you know they're going to do that I

13:22

think what you can do is make the

13:24

best you can make it really good and you

13:27

know people can still go to the movies

13:29

it's not I think we have this idea of

13:30

that's like an existential threat.

13:32

Everything that comes along is going to

13:33

destroy everything instead of like

13:36

>> what history suggests is that there's

13:37

like marginal encroachments. Things

13:39

shift. Yep. As television came along,

13:41

there was less theater going and that's

13:43

still going to happen. And people are

13:44

still going to go to the movies because

13:45

of what you said. Like it feels like a

13:46

cool thing to do. I'm going to go see

13:48

The Odyssey. I guarantee you in a

13:50

theater, you know, no matter what fewer

13:52

of them, you could argue that's because

13:54

I have more choice or whatever it is.

13:56

It's hard to fight supply and demand.

13:58

That's the trick, right? If people want

14:00

to watch a bunch of stuff at home

14:01

because they invested in TVs and cost us

14:04

money, they will. So, okay. But the

14:06

upside of that is like I can try to do

14:10

something hopefully that's like that

14:11

actually doesn't need to, you know, have

14:14

the most urgency to get you to come to

14:16

the theater with your family. That's a

14:18

little more experimental or risk-taking

14:19

or whatever in that way.

14:20

>> Well, you got to adapt. I mean, there's

14:22

no way you're going to change people's

14:23

viewing habits now. Yeah. I mean, what

14:25

percentage of Netflix is actually

14:27

watched on phones has got to be pretty

14:29

high, which is insane.

14:31

>> Yeah.

14:32

>> Even watching on a laptop for me is kind

14:34

of like kind of sucks. You know,

14:36

>> it sucks.

14:36

>> That's a joke that I [clears throat]

14:38

like to make with every director I work

14:39

with. Like when they're really puzzling

14:41

over a shot or really grinding out

14:43

something, I go, you know, it's not

14:44

going to look as good on the phone when

14:46

[laughter]

14:46

they just everyone gets angry.

14:49

>> Takes the weight out of their

14:51

sales, you [laughter] know? No, that's

14:52

going to look great this bigs.

14:54

But keep around and lighting

14:55

that wall.

14:56

>> It is weird though the the concern for

14:58

the algorithm like making sure that

14:59

people watch like look we've got data

15:01

that shows within the first five minutes

15:03

when this happens they tune out. So

15:04

let's like my buddy Tony Hinchcliffe you

15:06

know he's got Kill Tony and now it's on

15:08

Netflix and so they're giving him notes

15:10

now and they can give him like but

15:12

they're not telling him what to do but

15:13

they're saying like this is when people

15:14

are tuning out and so let's you know

15:17

just so you have that data now decide

15:19

how you want to edit things. It's like,

15:21

>> yeah, it is because because the

15:26

>> it's like the the bar for for

15:30

walking out of a movie theater is a lot

15:32

higher than from just changing the

15:34

channel. Right.

15:35

>> Right. And often times, you know, you

15:38

directors will want to make a movie that

15:39

is challenging and upsetting. And I

15:42

remember Terry Kenny, my my friend,

15:44

great actor, and he he told me about the

15:46

experience of seeing Taxi Driver in New

15:48

York for the first time, right, in 76 or

15:51

whenever it came out. And he said, "What

15:54

I remember is not only the movie, but I

15:56

remember standing at the back because I

15:58

had got up. I got up out of my seat and

16:00

I went, but I couldn't bring myself to

16:02

leave because I was so invested, but I

16:04

was so he was standing at the back by

16:06

the door watching the movie." And he

16:07

goes, "And there were two other people

16:09

standing next to me who were doing the

16:10

same thing

16:11

>> just cuz they were disturbed

16:12

>> because the movie was disturbing them so

16:14

much." Wow.

16:15

>> Which is not a bad thing, right? So had

16:17

that been on on Netflix or Amazon, you

16:19

know, if somebody say, "Oh, I'm

16:20

disturbed." And they turn and they

16:22

change the channel.

16:22

>> Yeah.

16:23

>> Like that doesn't mean you shouldn't

16:24

make Taxi Driver,

16:25

>> right? That's true. Like the investment

16:27

of going to a place is much greater.

16:30

>> Yeah. And one of the values of that is

16:31

that you could you look at movies from

16:32

the 70s, the first act was 25, 30

16:35

minutes, right? You know, the verdict

16:36

for a great movie takes a long time to

16:38

get

16:39

>> the deer hunter. Yeah. I mean, that's

16:41

>> and and you're right, like what you're

16:42

saying, the threshold for walk out is

16:44

really like any scene like, ah, I want

16:46

to watch Naked Alone, like whatever, you

16:48

know, you flip the So, you're

16:50

you are battling that. And you know,

16:52

>> I watched Lemon's the other night, Steve

16:55

McQueen, and there's no one talks for

16:57

like five minutes. There's no talking.

16:59

It's just a bunch of stuff getting done,

17:00

just a bunch of people doing things. And

17:02

it's like, wow, you could make a diff.

17:04

You could let it air out back then.

17:06

Yeah.

17:06

>> It was they had a different respect for

17:09

what it was. Like you were telling a

17:11

story and you're going to let it air

17:13

out.

17:13

>> Well, they also knew where their

17:14

audience was. They were in a theater

17:16

that they

17:17

>> part of it was they wanted to come

17:18

there. I mean, this great story I like

17:19

is the first time they they

17:20

[clears throat] debuted a movie guys

17:23

with a with a projector in a room full

17:25

of people. It was a it was a movie of a

17:27

train pulling into the station. So they

17:30

put the reel up and they did the

17:30

demonstration and they showed the people

17:32

and everybody missed it because they

17:34

were turned around staring at the

17:35

projector. They never [laughter]

17:36

seen anything like that, you know? So

17:38

it's like the techn is upstaging but

17:40

like you come for an event, come for a

17:42

thing, we're all going to be here.

17:43

That's part of it.

17:45

>> It's um I don't know. There's competing

17:47

arguments. So you can think, well, what

17:49

do you get to do? And some people just

17:50

go ahead and it. Like Jim Cameron's

17:52

Avatar, I'm going to make my three-hour

17:54

movie and people are going to come and

17:56

great. You know what I And people say,

17:57

"Oh, well, you can't have a three-hour

17:58

movie." And he's like, "Well, I'm Jim

18:00

Cameron and I've actually got the number

18:01

one and two and, you know, movies. I I

18:03

think I got this." He goes ahead and

18:05

does it. You know, this history is full

18:07

of people who got told a bunch of

18:08

conventional wisdom and we're like,

18:09

"Yeah, but we're going to do something

18:11

different." And it, as it turns out,

18:13

>> like that's actually what people want,

18:15

too, is not for you to just repeat the

18:16

other that's been done before and

18:18

that worked before.

18:19

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features and network management details.

19:10

One of the things I read that I thought

19:11

was really cool is you guys set

19:13

it up so that if this film performs

19:16

well, the entire crew gets bonuses.

19:20

Yeah,

19:20

>> that's awesome.

19:22

>> Yeah, hopefully it's successful.

19:24

[laughter]

19:25

>> I think you're going to get a house

19:26

if it doesn't great movie, man. It's a

19:28

fun movie,

19:29

>> but it's it's it's good, but it's not

19:31

like, you know, we're saints or

19:33

philanthropists. Like, it's completely

19:34

self- serving in my opinion because in

19:37

order to do the job well, everybody

19:39

who's working on it has to be really

19:40

invested and give a about the

19:42

result, not their paycheck only. And

19:44

sometimes you worry the crew that just

19:46

happen to be great anyway even though

19:48

they don't really have to care about it

19:49

and they do. And what we saw was like

19:52

that makes your movie better. And then

19:54

there's just the thing of like the

19:55

business is changing. You see these

19:57

strikes and work stop all these

19:59

questions in order for this I think to

20:01

to survive and to be you know a good

20:04

middle class art artist you know

20:07

artisal craftsman job. We got 1,200

20:10

people that, you know, need to have

20:12

reliable jobs. And part of the

20:14

negotiations is always like, yeah, yeah,

20:16

yeah, but we're all going to get

20:18

Like, we have no participation. Like,

20:20

used to working on movies, and it

20:21

happens to actors, too, where you go,

20:23

oh, we all invested. It was really hard

20:25

and we put in the extra effort.

20:26

Somebody else walked away with all the

20:29

success

20:30

>> and you, you know, my theory was was

20:32

with Matt was we were like, how about

20:34

where let's say, okay, it's just

20:35

fairness, right? this thing actually

20:37

blows up and does really well, you

20:39

should benefit from that. People have

20:41

been, you know, kind of given sort of

20:43

promises of of participation back and

20:45

that haven't come true. This is like the

20:47

crew. Everyone got their rates, everyone

20:48

got their hourly, no one cut anything.

20:50

This is just an exercise and actually

20:52

proving that it's not that if

20:54

there's success, you'll get some extra

20:57

little success, a little extra, a little

20:58

more, a little more.

20:59

>> But also, like you said, because it's

21:00

fair, you know, and and [clears throat]

21:02

and in success, the people who made the

21:05

movie should you know, should

21:07

participate in that. And and also with

21:09

this one, which was important to us,

21:10

there's, you know, they they delineate

21:12

above the line and below the line,

21:13

right? Like above the line being like

21:15

us, the director and the producers,

21:18

>> um, and below the line being kind of the

21:20

more bluecollar side of our industry and

21:22

and

21:23

>> like painters, grainsmen, camera,

21:25

everybody else, drivers,

21:26

>> and so we just wanted we we and believe

21:29

like when we started this company, we

21:31

were like, look, you know, we know who

21:33

makes our movie better, right? It's not

21:35

it's it's like they've this has kind of

21:37

been mispriced the whole time. Like the

21:39

economics have been wrong. Like when

21:40

there's a when there's a big success,

21:42

everybody who had a hand on it

21:44

>> because you see a great director that

21:45

people rely on or an actor that's

21:47

considered bankable, they're all going,

21:48

"Okay, I need all my people with."

21:50

>> Yeah. Every great director I've worked

21:51

with, and I've worked with a lot of

21:52

them, they have their regular crew

21:54

members that they that are ride or die

21:57

with these people because I mean, and

21:58

you said it to me when we were starting

22:00

the company, you were like,

22:01

>> you know, those department heads, you

22:03

know, who are each handling like, you

22:05

know, cinemat, you know, your camera

22:06

department, you know, your grip

22:07

department, your electric, like all

22:09

these this those people are

22:12

ultimately the people who make the movie

22:14

good. Like they make a demonstrable

22:16

difference in how good your movie is.

22:17

And imagine once [clears throat] you get

22:18

a good flow with a great crew, like you

22:21

got the band. Yeah. Like there's no need

22:22

to bring in new band members. Let's

22:24

let's do this again.

22:24

>> Yeah. And because then and then like you

22:27

have the situation where they all are

22:29

filmmakers too. Everybody knows what

22:30

we're trying to do. So like then what

22:32

makes it, you know, you're trying to get

22:34

something special, something

22:35

interesting, something magical

22:37

in some moment. You have to like if

22:39

people are tight or they've been out of

22:40

shape or, you know, up the

22:42

environment, people aren't relaxed,

22:43

actors can't do their best work. And

22:45

that does make a difference between

22:47

something that's good, average, great,

22:49

whatever. And I think that if you say

22:52

like, you know, it makes cognitive sense

22:54

to people, but if you look around like

22:56

what's Colin Anderson, camera operator,

22:58

right? Not the cinematographer,

22:59

>> but I would tell you he's the I think

23:01

he's the greatest camera operator there

23:02

is in Hollywood. If you want evidence

23:04

that he shot Marty Supreme, he was a

23:06

camera opera in one battle after

23:07

another. You know, he's you look at his

23:09

resume and you're like, "Oh, that's

23:11

interesting. These are all great

23:13

movies." Now, is he personally

23:14

responsible for all of it? No, because

23:16

it's a collaborative medium. There is no

23:18

like you can be a painter and paint by

23:19

yourself. You can be a novelist and do

23:20

that, sing, write music. You can't do

23:23

this job alone. Like there are a lot of

23:25

people that go into it. You know, even

23:28

my real like Matt was the lead in the

23:29

last movie I did air that I directed.

23:32

Having somebody so good in your

23:35

movie who also shows up, does his job,

23:38

is friendly, isn't around or

23:40

playing games or being weird like that

23:42

sets this tone. Everybody else kind of

23:45

goes, "Okay, what's Damon like?" Oh, I

23:48

see this. We're taking it seriously, but

23:49

nobody's going to be a dick. We're all

23:51

going to do our job. We're not going to

23:52

take ourselves too seriously, but we're

23:54

gonna take the job really seriously.

23:56

Immediately, everybody kind of snaps

23:58

into that. That trickle down effect goes

24:00

across the whole thing. And the I think

24:02

the the best thing that I know how to do

24:04

as a director is just create an

24:06

environment where people feel like they

24:08

show up, people like me, they're rooting

24:10

for me. I can embarrass myself

24:12

and be bad and it's not going to be in

24:14

the movie and no one's going to make me

24:15

feel self-conscious and

24:16

>> I'm listened to my ideas.

24:18

>> Yeah. And if I have something to offer,

24:19

they're going to go, "Oh, that's a good

24:20

idea." You know what I mean? And that

24:22

that's kind of the trick to in my view.

24:25

And then you're depending on the gifts

24:26

of all these people. Every single one of

24:28

them, you know, guys was, you know, some

24:30

woman's assistant uh propm is coming up

24:33

with like the stuff that, you know, Phil

24:34

Knight found, you know, his waffle and

24:36

the shoe, they found it on eBay, like

24:38

that's an extra mile. You know what I

24:40

mean? And if you make people feel like

24:41

it matters and you give a and that

24:43

they're contributing and oh cool, let's

24:45

do a close-up of that. That's really

24:46

cool.

24:47

>> They'll die for you. They'll go all the

24:49

way and it changes the whole

24:51

>> if you bonus them.

24:53

>> Yeah. [laughter] doesn't hurt either.

24:54

>> You know, it's not just all, you know,

24:56

it's it's not just there's an actual

24:58

like codified bonus structure to say

25:01

like we

25:03

>> this is a way of recognizing that

25:04

right? It's like in your paycheck, too.

25:05

It's not just real and you guys develop

25:07

this. Is this so something that you

25:09

like? Kudos to you guys for addressing

25:10

this first of all and recognizing it and

25:13

having that attitude because it's so

25:14

important and it's so easy for big movie

25:17

stars to just think about themselves and

25:18

their own.

25:19

>> We're communists, Joe. [laughter]

25:20

>> We're from Cambridge.

25:24

keep the car running. [laughter]

25:26

>> No, no, but uh but but each each deal

25:29

has had this kind of each deal that

25:31

we've done so far has been different

25:33

because we've made deals with, you know,

25:34

different studios and platforms and

25:37

stuff like that. And

25:37

>> it just involved us basically

25:39

retroactively going, "Hey, we came in

25:41

under we did a great job. There's extra

25:43

money. Here you go." Mhm.

25:45

>> This is the first time that we were able

25:46

to to actually create like a schedule

25:49

where it's like because and by the way,

25:51

we wouldn't have been able to do that

25:52

without Netflix going, "Okay, cool. You

25:53

think you can make this work? Is this

25:55

we'll give you a shot. Otherwise, we

25:56

wouldn't have been able to do it." So,

25:58

we had to say, "Look, we're not asking

25:59

you to take a cut, but you know, if if

26:01

we we can and we can tell you if the

26:02

movie is watched as many hours in the

26:05

first 90 days as like this movie a that

26:07

you all know what it is, then that's you

26:10

know 20% of your let's say, right? You

26:12

should take a hit." So it's like, yeah,

26:14

you make more money, your bonus is more.

26:15

It's all just pegged to where you're at

26:17

just because that was the most fair idea

26:19

we'd come up with.

26:20

>> So they gave us like five different

26:21

levels, right? Like the first couple we

26:24

hopefully we can hit and maybe the third

26:26

maybe we get and then it got to like the

26:27

fifth one

26:28

>> kind of like single double triple home

26:29

run

26:29

>> home run grand slam. The fifth

26:31

one was was 110% of all Netflix viewers

26:35

or something like that. So it's

26:36

everybody who has a Netflix account

26:37

watches it and then like 10% of them

26:39

watch it again. And we were like K-pop

26:41

demon this is the biggest but that's

26:42

what happened. We were laughing and then

26:44

K-pop Demon Hunters came along and

26:46

actually did that. That's the first

26:47

movie that's ever

26:48

>> Jesus.

26:49

>> Yeah.

26:49

>> Well, I think a lot of autistic kids

26:51

watch that over and over and over.

26:52

>> I haven't seen I haven't seen [laughter]

26:54

it, but I I mean somebody's watching it

26:55

over and over.

26:56

>> Yeah. So, dude, people love it.

26:59

>> I mean, it's you know the the the value

27:02

of it is that because before this one of

27:03

the big things and everybody's fighting

27:04

over in the strike is like well share

27:06

your ch there used to be residuals,

27:08

right? and residuals and it was only for

27:09

SAG and a few other things but it was

27:11

like and you knew if you had a line in

27:13

the movie and the movie a certain number

27:14

like at the box office well you're going

27:16

to get another 2,000 bucks and that was

27:19

a big deal you get that check in the

27:20

mail and like okay I can pay the rent

27:22

for another month and I can do that

27:23

but then it then there was this like

27:25

sort of illde what constitutes success

27:27

because streamer doesn't actually sell

27:29

another ticket if you watch that movie

27:31

right it's hard to tell well why did you

27:33

sign up for this service right so for a

27:35

while everyone's looking at the first

27:37

thing that you looked that when you

27:38

subscribe to somebody, okay, you going

27:40

to go buy Hulu? What did you watch

27:42

first? The bear. Well, the bear must be

27:44

creating value for us. But it's you

27:46

can't assign a a strict numerical value

27:48

to it because it's unlike a box office

27:50

where you can go, well, you know,

27:52

Oenheimer is a billion dollars or

27:54

whatever and you know that's another

27:55

billion dollars on our balance sheet

27:57

because streamers are doing a

27:59

subscription model, you know,

28:01

>> it's, you know, whether it's like a gym

28:02

membership where in the you

28:04

know, first of the year you're like, I'm

28:05

going to work out again. I'm going to

28:06

buy that annual membership. And you go

28:08

twice or you go to the gym every single

28:10

day, you're paying the same amount.

28:11

>> Also, the weird thing is with streaming,

28:13

when you're opening up Netflix, it's not

28:15

like you're going to the movie theater

28:16

and there's seven movies playing. You're

28:18

opening up Netflix and you have an

28:20

unlimited option list. It's insane how

28:24

much content you could waste the rest of

28:26

your life sitting in front of Netflix

28:28

and then die and have, you know,

28:30

millions of hours more to listen to or

28:32

watch. And you're right, like when we

28:34

started researching that and built our

28:36

own data to poll people and examine all

28:39

this stuff, it's it's actually all the

28:41

library stuff that people are watching

28:43

all the time. if you said like the new

28:45

stuff is theoretically what what keeps

28:47

people with the subscription or whatever

28:48

but in terms of like volume of time I

28:51

think and doesn't come from them but it

28:53

looks a lot like you know going to watch

28:56

like orange and new black and the

28:57

episode of suits and the old Seinfeld

28:59

and Friends and what you know um Cupcake

29:02

Wars or you know that that's what's cuz

29:04

Americans watch six hours of TV a day

29:07

right

29:07

>> that's crazy

29:09

>> and then the other six hours they're on

29:10

their phone how [laughter] does anything

29:12

get done how does anything get done

29:14

>> when you started to make this film like

29:16

what what is the process like how did

29:17

you guys agree on it like what did you

29:20

guys have it written first

29:22

>> was Joe so

29:24

>> before you knew you were going to

29:25

Netflix with it

29:26

>> yeah yeah he came to us with the script

29:28

and we've known Joe for a really he did

29:29

a movie his first movie is called Narc I

29:31

don't know if you ever saw terrific

29:33

great movie

29:33

>> so we met him way back this 25 years ago

29:36

or something like that and so we met him

29:38

met him back then and Ben did a movie of

29:41

his4 four, I think. And so we've known

29:44

Joe for a really long time and kind of

29:46

been in touch with him over the years

29:47

and and he just sent this to us and said

29:49

and we read it and we thought it was

29:50

great and and and and bought it for the

29:53

company and then we started talking to

29:56

Joe about, you know, how he saw, you

29:58

know, how he wanted to do it and and he

29:59

suggested that we actually do the movie.

30:02

Um, and we and we were like, "Yeah, why

30:04

don't we do it? It seems

30:06

>> basically because we liked and part of

30:07

it's like we're not trying to just do

30:09

our movies. We want to be, you know,

30:12

doing movies with all these the people

30:13

that we like and respect and and and

30:15

then, you know, the way we sort of set

30:16

it up is such that to try to get like

30:19

the historically the way it's worked is

30:22

like the, you know, a studio will own a

30:24

an IB or a script or whatever and then

30:26

you cut and they'll say, "Okay, we want

30:27

you to do it." Okay, well, how much?

30:29

Well, how much did you get for the last

30:30

one, right? And you go then what's the

30:31

budget? And then that's how they assign

30:33

a value to it, right? But like my belief

30:36

was well especially when these streamers

30:38

are like coming into the market and and

30:40

chasing stuff is like this movie may may

30:42

be worth more it may be worth less and

30:44

that like we're all just subject to that

30:46

so we'll try to get the best price for

30:48

it and we'll all share it you know prata

30:51

and essentially that that was the same

30:52

process we've done eight I guess movies

30:54

or so now and and uh we took it out and

30:57

you know people wanted it and then one

30:59

of the things that was really appealing

31:00

about Netflix was that they were open to

31:02

this this idea that we've been trying to

31:04

institutionalize and was like, "Okay,

31:06

great. That's that's really meaningful

31:08

because ideally it becomes a template

31:10

that other people go, hey, we want to do

31:11

that thing, you know, and then go, oh,

31:13

here's the paperwork."

31:14

>> Yeah, that's the thing. Like a lot of

31:15

people say that they would want to do

31:17

it, but it now now that template exists.

31:20

So, it's like plugandplay. So, if you if

31:22

you're not full of and you really

31:24

do mean that, then guess what? Just take

31:25

this and

31:26

>> and it also is going to let you, you

31:28

know, I hope like manage the risk. In

31:31

other words, the argument you always

31:32

have is like, well, we got to

31:33

invest all this money in the movie. So,

31:35

you can't have your protagonist be too

31:37

objectionable. That's too edgy or can't

31:39

be R-rated because it costs this. I get

31:42

it right. You're going to put all your

31:43

money into it. You want you don't want

31:44

money to disappear. You want to

31:46

make money. Okay. So, if like when we

31:48

wrote the first movie that Goodwill

31:50

Hunting, it was like we knew that had to

31:51

be a cheap movie. People talking in

31:53

rooms to each other because no one's

31:54

going to put a bunch of money into a

31:55

movie with us.

31:56

>> Two that no one heard of. So,

31:58

it was like, okay, what can we do?

32:00

That's interesting that and try to keep

32:01

it as inexpensive as possible so that we

32:04

can make the argument that someone

32:05

should make the movie. That same logic

32:07

like carries through every time you're

32:09

asking somebody to invest in something.

32:10

So what I'd like to have happen is to

32:13

say, okay, now that we know there's a

32:15

reliable system where we understand that

32:18

like in success will actually benefit,

32:20

we can lower, you know, the price

32:22

upfront for you so that you can have a

32:24

low barrier to entry so that you

32:26

can take the risk so that we can do

32:27

something really interesting. That's

32:28

that's an original idea. That's a you

32:31

know that's an ABM or sinners or

32:33

Marty Supreme or whatever it is and and

32:36

then if it's successful we're not all

32:37

sitting here like where you

32:39

know you guys walk off with all the

32:40

money but and you can have that happen

32:42

in an ongoing way so that you can make

32:44

more interesting stuff. A lot of the

32:46

stuff that was going on with the strikes

32:49

was centered around AI and what AI is

32:52

going to do to the business. like what

32:54

where do you feel is going to be like

32:56

the biggest problem with AI? Is it going

32:58

to be with people's likenesses? Because

33:00

there's a lot of that where they want

33:02

they want to use extras and own their

33:04

digital rights forever essentially be

33:05

able to recreate them in any kind of

33:07

film. But then there's also you're going

33:09

to have films that are written by

33:12

artificial intelligence. You're going to

33:14

have scenes that don't involve people.

33:17

And it gets weird, right?

33:19

>> It gets really weird. But there's

33:21

actually an area for him.

33:22

>> Yeah, we've been spending time looking

33:24

at this. Like my belief is it's sort of

33:25

like what's going to happen with

33:26

electricity.

33:28

>> Well, a lot of shit's going to happen

33:29

with electricity. Some of it's going to

33:30

be good. Some of it's going to change

33:31

stuff. Some of it's going to be like,

33:33

you know, this is going to be, you know,

33:35

that kills a bunch of people. Like,

33:36

it's it's it's opening a door that you

33:38

can't um you know, say, well, talk about

33:41

in a kind of a blanket way. But I think

33:43

with what I see is like for example, if

33:45

you try to get Chat GBT or Claude or

33:48

Gemini to write you something, it's

33:50

really shitty. And it's shitty because

33:53

by its nature, it goes to the mean to

33:55

the average. And it's and it's not

33:58

reliable. And it's I mean, I just can't

34:00

even stand to see what writes. Now, it's

34:02

a useful tool if you're a writer and

34:04

you're going, "Uh, what's the thing? I'm

34:06

trying to set something up or somebody

34:08

sends someone a letter, but it's delayed

34:09

two days and gets and it can give you

34:11

some examples of that. I actually don't

34:13

think it's very likely that it can it's

34:16

going to be able to write anything

34:17

meaningful or and in particular that

34:20

it's going to be making movies like from

34:22

whole cloth like Tilly Nor like that's

34:23

I don't think that's going to

34:24

happen. I think it's not I think it

34:26

actually it turns out the technology is

34:28

not progressing in exactly the same way

34:30

they sort of presented it. Um and really

34:32

what it is is going to be a tool just

34:34

like sort of visual effects and yeah it

34:36

needs to have language around it. You

34:38

need to protect your name and likeness.

34:39

You can do that. You can watermark it.

34:41

You're those laws already exist. You

34:43

can't I can't sell your picture

34:44

for money. I can't. You can sue me.

34:46

Period. I might have the ability to draw

34:49

you to make you in a very realistic way,

34:51

but that's already against the law. And

34:54

the unions are going to I think the

34:55

guilds are going to manage this where

34:57

it's like, okay, look, if this is a tool

35:00

that actually helps us, for example, we

35:01

don't have to go to the North Pole,

35:02

right? We can shoot the scene here in

35:04

our parkas and you know whatever it is

35:07

and but then make it appear very

35:09

realistically as if we're in the North

35:10

Pole. It'll save us a lot of money, a

35:12

lot of time. We're going to focus on the

35:14

performances and not be freezing our ass

35:15

off out there and running back inside.

35:18

That's useful just like Spencer Tracy

35:20

and Katherryn Heburn used to be like

35:22

driving their car and there's a wind

35:23

blowing a painting behind them. and look

35:25

goofy and you [laughter] know now you

35:27

know in computer gener people use a lot

35:28

of computerenerated stuff and some of it

35:30

is going to replace just that like

35:32

instead of uh 500 guys in Singapore you

35:34

know making $2 an hour to to render all

35:37

the graphics for a superhero movie

35:40

there's going to be able to do that a

35:41

lot easier there's already laws around

35:43

and guild guidelines around like how

35:45

many union extras you have to use but

35:47

also we've been tiling extras like there

35:49

weren't a million orcs in Middle Earth

35:52

you know what I mean there aren't

35:53

Invictus there weren't all those people

35:54

in the stadium like that's something

35:56

we've been doing. It kind of feels to me

35:58

like the thing we were talking about

35:59

earlier where there's a lot more fear

36:02

because we have the sense this

36:03

existential dread. It's going to wipe

36:04

everything out.

36:06

>> But that actually runs counter in my

36:07

view to what history seems to show which

36:10

is a adoption is slow. It's incremental.

36:14

>> Um I think a lot of that rhetoric comes

36:16

from people who are trying to justify

36:18

valuations around companies where they

36:21

go we're going to change everything in

36:22

two years. There's going to be no more

36:23

work. Well, the reason they're saying

36:25

that is because they need to ascribe a

36:27

valuation for investment that can

36:29

warrant the capex spend they're going to

36:31

make on these data centers with the

36:32

argument that like oh you know as soon

36:35

as we do the next model it's going to

36:36

scale up can be three times as good

36:38

except that actually chatp5 about 25

36:42

time% better than chatbt4 and costs

36:45

about four times as much in the way of

36:47

electricity and data so when they say

36:49

that's like plateauing the early AI the

36:53

line went up very steeply and it's now

36:55

sort of leveling off. I think it's

36:57

because and yes it'll get better but

36:59

it's going to be really expensive to get

37:01

better and a lot of people are like

37:02

this we want chatb4 because it turned

37:04

out like the vast majority of people who

37:07

use AI are using it to like as like

37:10

companion bots to chat with at night and

37:12

stuff. There's no work, there's no

37:14

productivity, there's no value to it. I

37:16

would argue there's also not a lot of

37:18

social value to getting people to like

37:21

focus on an AI friend who's, you know,

37:23

telling you that you're great and

37:25

listening to everything you say and

37:26

being sick ofantic. But that's sort of a

37:29

side issue. I think for this particular

37:31

purpose, like the way I see the

37:33

technology and what it's good at and

37:34

what it's not, it's going to be good at

37:36

filling in all the places that are

37:37

expensive and burdensome and they make

37:39

it harder to do it and it's always going

37:41

to rely fundamentally on the human

37:43

artistic aspects of it. Well, I think

37:46

the more it becomes ubiquitous, the more

37:49

people are going to appreciate real

37:50

things that are made by real people, you

37:53

know, like you're you still appreciate a

37:54

handmade table, you know? You're you're

37:56

going to appreciate like Did you see um

37:59

uh The Beast in Me, Claire Danes?

38:01

>> Yeah.

38:01

>> No, I didn't. great.

38:02

>> Yeah, I heard it was great.

38:03

>> That lady

38:05

terrific.

38:06

>> When she's in a scene, you're just like

38:08

Jesus Christ. Like great.

38:10

>> Like you like her lips are

38:11

quivering like you believe everything

38:13

that she's saying. But you're right,

38:14

people want that. My kids want

38:16

cassette.

38:18

>> I'll say like I I did this interview

38:20

[clears throat] with uh with Dwayne

38:21

Johnson because they, you know, they

38:23

when people are in these awards things,

38:25

they sometimes have other actors

38:26

interview them, you know. And I did this

38:28

interview with Dwayne and and and I

38:30

asked him, there's this scene in the

38:31

Smashing Machine where where he's

38:34

overdosed on drugs and his buddy comes

38:35

to see him in the hospital.

38:37

>> Yeah.

38:37

>> And and it really walloped me this

38:40

scene. I thought it was so great. And

38:42

and I asked him and I was just like,

38:44

"Can you just tell me about this scene?

38:45

Like, did Benny Benny Safy directed it?

38:47

Did Benny write this write that? Did you

38:49

work on that scene with them? Did you?"

38:50

He goes, "No, we we actually worked on

38:52

it together." And I go, "But how did

38:53

that scene come to be?" And Dwayne goes,

38:56

"Well, my father was an alcoholic." And

38:58

I don't remember if he said substance

38:59

abuse or alcoholic, but I didn't know

39:01

the man. I don't want to impug him, but

39:02

but he had he had a substance issue,

39:04

whatever it was. He goes, "And and when

39:06

he would talk to me, uh, you know,

39:09

that's how he

39:11

would defend himself." It was almost a

39:13

bargaining thing because there's this

39:14

thing when this guy comes to him, he's

39:16

overdosed and Dwayne's amazing in this

39:18

scene. He's he's going like he's going

39:20

like, "Yeah, isn't it crazy?" And then I

39:21

woke up and I mean, I could hear him,

39:22

but I couldn't really hear him. And you

39:23

see him and he's kind of tap dancing and

39:25

his friend finally kind of holds his

39:27

feet to the fire. And at that moment,

39:30

Dwayne literally

39:33

starts to burst into tears and just

39:34

pulls the hospital sheet up over his

39:37

head. And it's like and it's and it's I

39:40

mean it just it was I'm I'm not doing it

39:43

justice if you haven't I mean I know you

39:44

I know you've seen

39:46

>> but um he said yeah. So he explains that

39:50

about his father and then he goes and

39:52

and uh when my mom was diagnosed with

39:54

stage three lung cancer. I was with her

39:56

when the oncologist came in and she was

39:58

lying in the hospital bed and when he

40:00

gave her the news, she pulled the sheet

40:02

up over her head and [snorts] I looked

40:05

at her and she just looked like a little

40:06

like a little kid, you know, and I was

40:09

like, "All right." [snorts] Like, so

40:12

that right is two traumatic events from

40:15

this guy's life, right, from his life

40:18

experience.

40:19

And the actor in him, right, sees this

40:22

scene,

40:24

goes into his

40:26

memory pulls these two things out,

40:28

understands that they're appropriate for

40:30

this scene, and he can marry them

40:31

together in the scene, and then he goes

40:34

and performs it that way. And

40:35

[clears throat]

40:36

a dude walking in off the road, goes to

40:39

the movies, sees this, understands

40:43

somehow that it's real. I I

40:46

didn't know why. I That's why I wanted

40:48

to ask him, how did that scene come to

40:49

be? genuinely didn't know and made me

40:54

tear up and you know like that is

40:58

>> there's no AI that can do that.

41:00

>> No, it's the whole lot more than

41:02

photorealistic images.

41:04

>> Yeah, you you could you could you could

41:06

have an AI understand Dwayne's face and

41:08

move his face into different No

41:11

thing could ever do that.

41:12

>> The complications of real life

41:13

experiences relayed.

41:15

>> That is a completely human That is an

41:17

that is an artist. That's a piece of

41:18

art, right? that comes out of a lived

41:20

human experience.

41:21

>> That movie gave me so much anxiety.

41:23

There's moments where Emily Blunt is

41:25

arguing in that movie. I said I really

41:28

said I I I was like that I think I think

41:29

that's the best she's ever been. I love

41:31

you know we live in the same building in

41:32

New York. She's like very dear friend of

41:33

mine and I and I I I I was like I I

41:36

really think that's the best she's ever

41:37

been. And then I said and then I blurted

41:39

that out to Chris Nolan and and he kind

41:41

of stopped and looked at me like he

41:43

didn't say it but he was kind of like

41:44

she's pretty good in my movie

41:46

too. [laughter]

41:47

>> Well, she's great period.

41:48

[clears throat] She's great period.

41:49

>> She's great period. But there's

41:50

something about that. Well, I knew Mark.

41:52

I I knew Mark from I met Mark in 97 when

41:56

he was fighting in the UFC. So, [cough]

41:57

I knew the whole journey of him. And I

42:00

was so happy for Dwayne because it was a

42:02

film where instead of being this

42:05

superhero blockbuster Hulk of a man, he

42:08

gets to be that, but be an a great

42:11

actor. And you know, you can't really

42:14

get a person

42:16

>> to look like that

42:18

>> to express emotions and and and he was

42:23

Mark Kerr. If you know Mark, I mean, it

42:26

was great actor.

42:27

>> I completely forgot it was him and

42:29

somebody who had seen it before told me

42:31

that was going to happen and I was like,

42:32

"All right, we'll see." Yeah. [laughter]

42:35

And it was like from the second it

42:36

started

42:36

>> it didn't get the credit it deserved in

42:38

terms of like the amount of people that

42:39

went to see it. But I think overall in

42:41

time people appreciated.

42:42

>> Yeah. That's one people go back to and

42:45

talk about

42:45

>> because it's a movie about MMA. So a lot

42:48

of people are like I don't want to see a

42:49

movie about a bunch of

42:50

meatheads. But it's not. It's just a

42:52

movie that happens to be around MMA but

42:55

MMA. But it's a great movie. The the the

42:59

scenes are fantastic. The acting

43:02

is so good and the right and even the

43:04

the fight scenes. They're so realistic,

43:07

man. It's really like they I've saw all

43:09

those fights. They recreated those

43:12

fights about as good as you can get

43:14

>> and just his crazy struggle. And you

43:17

know the story behind the documentary,

43:19

The Smashing Machine.

43:20

>> No.

43:20

>> So, The Smashing Machine was made when

43:22

Mark was at the height of his powers and

43:24

pride. And he was the most terrifying

43:26

guy in the world. He was 265 lb of solid

43:30

muscle just blowing through people.

43:32

Didn't even look like a human being.

43:33

Everyone was terrified of him. No one

43:35

knew he was a drug addict. No one knew.

43:37

And he spiraled out as they were

43:40

filming. And he let them film him. Let

43:43

them film him shooting up. let them film

43:45

him like bringing this giant bag of

43:47

pills with him and all this

43:49

everywhere and just completely falling

43:51

apart. While they were supposed to be

43:53

capturing this hero movie of the

43:56

greatest fighter in the world, he's

43:58

falling apart like live in front of the

44:00

documentary. It was amazing

44:02

documentary.

44:03

>> I got to see it.

44:04

>> It's really good. But the I was so happy

44:07

that they put it in a film and I was so

44:09

happy that it gave Dwayne a vehicle to

44:12

show what he's really capable of because

44:13

he's so limited by a lot of just the

44:16

parameters of the roles that he was in.

44:18

>> Yeah. And by and by like galactic

44:21

success, too, right? I mean, it's it's

44:23

it's he he has he had to

44:26

>> and will continue to have to

44:28

>> push

44:30

>> for that, right? Because it's

44:31

[clears throat] what he wants, right?

44:33

and not because what because what what

44:35

they are going to continue to want him

44:37

to do is you know the thing that that

44:39

that mints them money. Um

44:41

>> yeah but I suspect that his experience

44:44

and feeling about this movie

44:46

>> from the conversations I've had with

44:47

him. Yeah. This this is this is

44:49

>> this has changed him.

44:51

>> Yeah.

44:51

>> Well, I mean it's like this thing that

44:54

these superhero guys have to do where

44:56

it's like something has to change

44:58

because otherwise you're going to be

45:00

boxed. Yeah. And with a guy that looks

45:02

like that, it's so easy to put him in

45:04

that box.

45:06

>> And so you see him now, he's thinner.

45:07

He's lost a lot of weight. Dave Bautista

45:09

went through a very similar thing, too,

45:10

right? He wanted to be he wanted to have

45:12

more range, wanted to have, you know,

45:14

more opportunities to do exciting and

45:16

different challenging things.

45:17

>> Well, I think also coming from where he

45:19

came from, right? It's like you talk

45:21

about going from TV to movies in the old

45:23

days, try coming from wrestling to to

45:26

like the biggest movie star in the

45:28

world, right? It's very it's like it's

45:29

incredible that he did that and now he's

45:33

in this place where he's got this

45:35

leverage as because he's so beloved and

45:37

you know that that he can kind of tailor

45:39

the tailor what he wants from from here

45:41

on out.

45:42

>> It's hard to bring the audience with you

45:43

and like no no I know you like this

45:45

thing but let me let me show you

45:47

something else. You know it's sort of

45:48

like you go to the concert the band

45:50

wants to play the new songs and play the

45:52

hits. [laughter] You know

45:55

it's always a little gilded gaze. All

45:57

right. it. satisfaction.

45:58

>> Yeah. [laughter]

46:00

>> No, I love the song, too.

46:02

>> You know, my my acoustic thing that I

46:04

did, you know.

46:05

>> Yeah. I went to see the Stones and when

46:07

they were here in town and there was a

46:09

few songs they played that were like new

46:10

songs.

46:10

>> Oh, really? See the audience is like,

46:12

"Okay, okay. Go get a beer. Get the

46:14

other one." [laughter]

46:15

>> Yeah. That's But I mean, but you know,

46:18

every artist, I guess, has to make that

46:20

choice. And he's made it. and and it was

46:23

amazing vehicle too cuz he still kept

46:25

that superhuman hulkish frame and then

46:29

but also showed like god there's like

46:31

amazing depth there.

46:32

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

46:33

>> And that's the thing that's I think

46:35

especially because it's a it's

46:37

collaborative it happens with other

46:38

people. That's what movies do that other

46:41

doesn't do which is just create

46:43

like you feel for people. It's empathy.

46:45

It's all made up right that's not him.

46:47

That's all it's all an illusion all

46:49

But if you do it really well

46:50

with like, you know, somebody that seems

46:53

to really be feeling something like all

46:54

of a sudden, I think what it does, it

46:56

touches like these things in ourselves,

46:58

you know, it has that same effect that

47:00

Dwayne went through of articulate to you

47:02

about like these moments that were kind

47:05

of burned into his memory. Then really

47:08

the best movies are kind of almost blank

47:10

screens that we project our own

47:12

like, oh yeah, I my father died or I

47:15

went through this with my kid or I'm

47:17

I feel alone and and and

47:20

and miserable and and here's this like

47:22

hopeful moment that someone has to go

47:24

maybe I can maybe I can do something,

47:26

you know, they inspire you, they touch

47:27

you, they move you and the thing to go

47:29

for. The other thing is, you know, it's

47:32

a is to to tell a lighter story, to go

47:34

through the more typical sort of tropes

47:36

of it all. And it's a

47:37

>> either way, you're in somebody else's

47:39

perspective for a few hours and

47:41

hopefully it breeds compassion.

47:42

>> Well, when it's done right, there's a

47:44

magic to it where you forget that it's

47:46

happening and you're there when the most

47:48

amazing trick is when it's done by

47:50

famous people. You know, I was talking

47:51

to Ethan Hawk about this. There's a

47:53

scene with him and Kevin Bacon when in

47:56

uh that movie with Julia Roberts about

47:57

the end of the world. I forget the name

47:58

of it.

47:59

>> Right. Yeah, tomorrow

48:02

something people will find it. But it's

48:04

great, great movie. But there's

48:05

this scene where he's trying to get he's

48:08

talking to Kevin Bacon. Kevin Bacon's

48:10

got a gun to him. And it's so I

48:13

know that's Kevin Bacon. I know that's

48:15

Ethan Hawk. It doesn't matter. Like

48:17

you're locked in. You're locked

48:19

in. You're like, "Oh shit." Like that's

48:21

the magic. And And he was like, "But I'm

48:25

locked in too." Like that's it's like a

48:27

hypnosis. It's like everybody is in the

48:30

scene in a very bizarre way. Like you

48:35

you have the lines, but you're living

48:37

it. And so, and that's either done or

48:39

it's not done. And when it's not done,

48:41

>> you could tell someone's kind of just

48:43

performative.

48:44

>> You feel it when you're watching it.

48:45

>> Yes.

48:45

>> If if it does that thing and it pulls

48:47

you in, then it's happening.

48:49

>> That's the magic of film.

48:50

>> And sometimes you trick people, I guess,

48:52

but for the most part,

48:52

>> for the most part, you don't. you're

48:54

feeling it and you it's really

48:56

happening. It's much more like

48:58

>> other human beings recognize human

49:00

beings experiencing real Yes. They

49:03

they mirror like I know what

49:06

>> sorrow looks like without having to

49:08

I can't break it down for you or

49:10

I even you know you we all know kind of

49:12

what like oh he's a little anxious right

49:14

now or did I maybe offend him or you

49:16

know all these little things and when

49:18

some like in the rare moments when these

49:21

big feelings or the things happen you

49:24

feel it too you know and you usually

49:27

like an example is there's an old saying

49:29

about like you know actors try to cry

49:31

people try not to cry Like because when

49:33

you're really experiencing that

49:34

you don't want people to see it. You

49:35

want to hide it. You want to No, I'm

49:37

okay. I'm fine. You know, it's like

49:38

>> you want to pull the sheet up over

49:39

Exactly. Exactly.

49:41

>> But the other thing that's really

49:42

interesting from from our side of doing

49:44

it, because he and I have talked about

49:45

this a lot, is and I've always said

49:48

publicly, like great actors are good

49:50

enough for both of you. Like when you're

49:52

in a scene with a great actor,

49:54

>> that thing that Ethan's talking about,

49:56

that hypnosis or whatever you want to

49:58

call it, that energy, that that place

49:59

where you go, right?

50:01

>> They're bringing you right where they

50:02

tractor beam. They will suck you

50:04

right in with them. And like as quickly

50:06

as you look into their eyes and you're

50:08

like, you're like just there. And it's

50:10

like, and it's not like it's like riding

50:12

the easiest wave you've ever ridden in

50:14

your life,

50:16

>> you know? It can be the hardest thing in

50:17

the world and it can be the easiest

50:19

thing in the world. When you're with a

50:20

great actor, it just it's just if the

50:22

scenes

50:23

>> Yeah, that's the real paradox is like

50:25

all the stuff that I'm the most proud

50:26

of, the weird thing about us has felt

50:28

very easy at the time. And the

50:30

where you're banging your head against

50:31

the wall trying to get blood from a

50:32

stone and killing yourself and the whole

50:33

thing and it just

50:34

>> it ends up feeling empty. And

50:36

the thing about the stuff that I'm proud

50:38

of is I'm my insecurity is like should

50:40

be harder than this, right? Are we are

50:42

like we work hard enough? Are we get you

50:44

know

50:44

>> and learn to kind of just trust that? Go

50:46

feels good. Let's just keep going, you

50:48

know? Well, there's some scenes in this

50:49

movie without giving too much away where

50:51

there's conflict between you two guys

50:52

that seem so real and that's even harder

50:55

to recreate because you guys are good

50:56

friends and you're making the movie

50:59

together and you've got this scene where

51:01

you're acting in this and with the

51:03

conflict with the two of you guys the

51:04

movie, but it's very real.

51:06

>> The reason that it was real is that I

51:08

like that scene. The reason it's it it

51:09

it works, I think, is because

51:12

he's coming at me and he's he really

51:16

needs to know something and I'm

51:18

completely blanking him.

51:20

>> Like I'm just he's going, "You got to

51:22

tell me what's going on, man." He's

51:23

like, "It's awesome." Like, "What what

51:24

is going what is the thing?" And I'm and

51:26

I'm just like literally kind of blanking

51:29

him in this bizarre way which which like

51:32

was really frustrating him in real life

51:35

because he he was that feeling of like

51:38

it's tell me dude it's you and

51:40

me like when he finally goes he screams

51:42

out I don't trust you right now that's a

51:44

problem right which is like what

51:46

you would say to an old friend like what

51:48

are you doing man like what

51:51

>> what what are you do like

51:53

tell me the the betrayal me or

51:55

tell me the truth. Lie, lie to me or

51:57

tell me talk to me and like step outside

51:58

our whole relationship and all of a

52:00

sudden

52:01

>> just act like

52:02

>> give me this weird look of just like I

52:04

don't know, you know, like [laughter]

52:07

and so when we were doing the scene,

52:10

it was really pissing [laughter]

52:11

him off. I could see him like getting

52:13

>> There's the one line that wasn't written

52:14

that I saw I didn't remember doing was,

52:15

"I would have never you like

52:16

this."

52:17

>> I I would have never you like

52:18

this. Yeah.

52:18

>> Which I didn't even remember saying is

52:20

George, I like that. Keep that thing. I

52:21

wouldn't have you. And I was I

52:23

thought I was like what is he what did I

52:25

just you and I so watched the playback.

52:27

It wasn't those rare moments again. It

52:29

was like where it was that thing of you

52:31

doing all the work by by not doing

52:33

anything which I didn't expect that to

52:36

be the choice that you made and it just

52:38

was confusing and felt like just you

52:40

know leaving you out in the

52:41

cold. I the only thing I could rely on

52:44

is like I you know I I would I wouldn't

52:46

do this to you [laughter] you know. So

52:47

do you have in those moments where

52:49

you're you're ad living a line where a

52:51

line come is it just just that feels

52:53

like that's what you say?

52:55

>> Yeah.

52:55

>> It's just kind of like he couldn't stop

52:57

from saying it, right? You know,

52:58

>> but you have to be working with somebody

53:00

that makes that okay. You know what I

53:02

mean? Cuz the part of your brain that

53:04

will like govern you or tell you

53:06

something's not okay, whatever, will

53:08

step in if it's sort of like, you know,

53:10

listen, I expect you to do this

53:12

boxes. And there's there's uh directors

53:13

and writers who who really do really

53:15

care about every word precisely and that

53:18

you know and that's that's how they do

53:19

it and that's fine. That could be great

53:20

too. For me like it it I find it's it

53:24

becomes more interesting and sometimes

53:25

better stuff happens if you actually

53:27

feel like you don't have to say any of

53:28

the lines. I don't have to say any of

53:30

the lines in the scene. Then I'll tend

53:32

to say the ones that feel right. But it

53:35

but like it's that it's that fake thing

53:37

that never happens in life which is I'm

53:39

never sitting here talking to you and

53:40

think what's my next line? What am I

53:42

supposed to say and how should I say

53:44

that?

53:44

>> And it's not about the lines ever. It's

53:46

not about the word. It's about what's h

53:47

what's the scene about? What's happening

53:48

in the scene?

53:49

>> It's one of the reasons why curb curb

53:51

your enthusiasm is so great

53:52

>> cuz Larry David just gives you a place

53:55

to get to.

53:56

>> Yeah. Like

53:56

>> it gives them an ag kind of a loose

53:58

agenda of what's going to happen

53:59

>> and then films a bunch of stuff and

54:01

everybody figures it out.

54:02

>> Yeah. And a lot of times that show's

54:04

about the awkward in between when

54:06

people are missing each other or not not

54:08

sure of themselves and a little

54:10

embarrassed.

54:10

genius show.

54:11

>> It really is.

54:12

>> And and and people talk like we're

54:14

talking like you occasionally talk over

54:16

each other. There's a stumble. There's

54:18

no one know like what what what the

54:20

are you talk? There's weirdness [snorts]

54:21

to

54:22

>> because what's also happening is that

54:24

forces you to really listen, right? And

54:26

that is that is the hardest thing to

54:29

kind of learn for young actors I think

54:31

is is it's really all about listening.

54:33

And like I did a bunch of movies with

54:35

Paul Greengrass and that's how he works

54:37

where he where you just know the agenda

54:40

going in. You know some basic things

54:42

that you you know what your guy needs

54:44

going in. Like I was playing a chief

54:46

warrant officer and I had to go through

54:48

a door and there was a guy and I needed

54:50

to interrogate him and I this is what I

54:52

needed to know from him. I needed to

54:54

secure the house with my guys and I

54:56

needed to get to this guy. We needed to

54:58

make sure everybody here was secure. So,

54:59

and it just and they and he put me with

55:01

a bunch of real

55:03

combat veterans and we went in

55:06

and you know they're the

55:07

>> another thing that does your job for

55:08

you.

55:09

>> It's just being around the real people.

55:11

>> Joe putting the the cops from Miami, you

55:13

know, on these parts and it just like by

55:16

osmosis you feel more legitimate. The

55:18

thing feels more authentic to the

55:20

audience. You don't know why because you

55:22

don't know what the how what the

55:23

culture is of the nar tactical narcotics

55:25

team in Miami. But when you see the real

55:27

guys, you kind of oh you're like, "Yeah,

55:29

that seems right."

55:30

>> Miami was a perfect place to have it,

55:32

too.

55:32

>> Miami.

55:33

>> Well, it's also specific to this because

55:34

it's based on this real tactical

55:37

narcotics [snorts] team in in in Miami.

55:39

And and uh and the guy who ran that,

55:42

this guy Chris Casiano is Joe's friend

55:44

and he's the guy that my character is

55:46

based on. Um, so Chris was Chris we

55:49

went, you know, we rode along with Chris

55:51

down there. We went with that team and

55:52

watched them operate and then hung out

55:54

with them and then they came up and they

55:55

were, you know, all in the movie and

55:57

Chris was around as a technical adviser

55:59

the whole time. So any question like

56:02

little details, all right, how do I go

56:03

through this door? What do I do? What do

56:05

you do here? What's the what's the

56:06

protocol here? What you know, all of

56:08

that stuff was kind of overseen by him

56:10

so that it so that it was how they

56:12

really do it.

56:13

>> That whole town is so Did you

56:15

ever see Cocaine Cowboys? Yes.

56:18

>> Oh

56:19

>> The entire graduating class of

56:21

the police academy one year either wound

56:23

up murdered or in jail. [laughter]

56:26

>> But that's what happens. All of a sudden

56:27

you push so much money into

56:30

something, right? And it's like and

56:32

before they even kind of figured out

56:34

like

56:35

>> you know and it was there wasn't even a

56:36

lot of stigma. I was like, "Ah, cocaine,

56:38

whatever. It's kind of rich guys fun

56:40

drug." But, you know, is there some

56:42

statistic about like, you know, the

56:44

amount of money in the banks in Miami

56:46

was like the same as the rest of the

56:48

country?

56:48

>> More [laughter] banks per capita in

56:50

Miami than anywhere else in the country

56:53

>> because they were just laundering money

56:55

and they got away with it. They

56:56

literally got away with it.

56:57

>> Have you ever flown over biminy? You

56:59

know, the island. So, so if you fly

57:02

over, ever fly over Biminy, there are

57:03

all these like Cessnas underwater, all

57:07

these planes like around the island cuz

57:09

what they used to do, Bimin is like the

57:11

closest it's 50 miles off the coast of

57:13

Florida. Um they would they would come

57:15

in with a plane full of drugs and just

57:18

crash the plane into the water. They

57:20

would land it on purpose.

57:21

>> On purpose because there's no runway on

57:23

Biminy. No, it's like it. We're

57:25

going to dump the plane in the

57:26

>> They would have 10 cigarette boats, like

57:28

a flotilla of boats waiting. They would

57:31

crash the plane. They'd offload the

57:33

drugs as the plane was sinking, right?

57:36

And and then they put it they put

57:37

[laughter]

57:39

the Coast Guard like figures. They're

57:40

always coming for them. That's why they

57:42

have 10 boats. They throw the drugs into

57:44

one of the boats

57:46

>> and they got a one out of 10 chance of

57:47

making it. They just scatter

57:50

>> and the Coast Guard goes after one of

57:52

them and hopes they get the right one

57:53

and not. It's just like, "No, it's just

57:55

taking a cruise tonight. What's the

57:57

problem, officer?"

57:58

>> But the planes are still all submerged.

58:01

Like you could The water's so clear. You

58:03

can see

58:03

>> how many Oh, wow.

58:04

>> There you go.

58:05

>> Wow.

58:06

>> That's crazy. How many planes

58:08

are out there?

58:09

>> I flew over it probably 20 years ago.

58:11

But I mean there's

58:14

>> Yeah,

58:14

>> that wasn't a

58:16

>> I don't know how long I mean but if you

58:17

think of probably the cost of one of

58:18

those little Cessnas probably wasn't I

58:20

mean with the amount of drugs they were

58:22

moving on on Yeah. There you go.

58:24

wild.

58:26

>> That's great. They're kind of landing

58:27

where it's sort of shallow. [laughter]

58:29

>> Yeah. They land and it's like

58:30

it. We can swim

58:30

>> 5 to 10 feet of water and what do they

58:32

they land at whatever 55 knots. So you

58:35

just try to

58:36

>> looks nice too like sure you can

58:39

be comfortable but I mean Sully landed a

58:41

737 or whatever it was in water.

58:44

>> Yeah. wild. What a crazy part of

58:48

our culture that that happened.

58:50

>> Yeah.

58:51

>> That the the the whole cocaine run

58:53

during the 80s in particular like Miami

58:55

Vice all that like it's like it

58:57

shaped the entire country

58:59

>> for sure.

58:59

>> Oh yeah. I just remember that one guy in

59:02

that documentary who was like I think he

59:03

was from Boston and he was like the

59:05

pilot and he had figured out the route

59:06

and he was like man

59:08

>> like we could have gotten away with this

59:09

forever. [laughter]

59:11

>> It was somebody talked and he knew

59:13

that's the only way we would have been

59:14

caught. He was like I I had it all. He

59:16

was clearly really smart.

59:17

>> One of the guys did too. You know what I

59:19

mean? There's a whole lot of people out

59:21

there that were like yeah we had a nice

59:22

run back. [laughter]

59:24

>> It's why I got eight houses. You know

59:25

it's like

59:26

>> Oh yeah. That's one of the real crimes

59:29

that people got away with was bringing

59:30

cocaine into this country. There's a lot

59:32

of people that got very wealthy,

59:33

including banks, which is just really

59:35

crazy.

59:36

>> Banks or the jewelry companies,

59:38

Jag. There was like more Jaguar

59:40

dealerships in Miami than everywhere

59:42

else in the country. And it was like

59:43

doesn't pay to ask questions. So, yep. I

59:45

guess a lot of people like our cars

59:46

here.

59:47

>> You don't say all cash. Sure. [laughter]

59:50

>> Yeah, we can make you a deal. Sure.

59:51

Well, how many backyards in Miami still

59:53

to this day have bags just buried

59:55

somewhere that nobody knows about?

59:57

>> It's probably worth just checking.

59:58

>> When you buy a house in Miami, just dig

1:00:00

the yard up.

1:00:01

>> Well, at least find out who owned it

1:00:02

before you. Oh, he's a pilot.

1:00:04

>> Get a truck. [laughter]

1:00:06

>> Get a tractor. It's time to dig up the

1:00:08

backyard. I mean, one of those guys in

1:00:10

the films had millions of dollars just

1:00:12

buried in his backyard. They had nowhere

1:00:13

to put it.

1:00:14

>> They were making so much money, they

1:00:15

just had to bury it places.

1:00:17

>> That's crazy. Well, it's why

1:00:19

it's a perfect backdrop for the film,

1:00:21

you know, because you know that the

1:00:24

situation that the cops without giving

1:00:26

away too much of the plot, but the

1:00:27

situation that the cops are dealing with

1:00:28

is a very real situation. I mean, so

1:00:30

many DEA agents turn dirty. So many cops

1:00:33

turn dirty. It's because it just get

1:00:36

temptation. It's like you take this

1:00:37

these people, you know, you got like

1:00:39

six, seven people, they work for

1:00:41

a living. They have the same

1:00:42

they have to deal with. And there's $20

1:00:44

million, you know, and it's I mean it

1:00:47

makes for a great like drama too. Even

1:00:49

like the you know in the performances

1:00:51

because all of a sudden somebody's

1:00:52

thinking like okay how are they going to

1:00:54

react you know who be the first person

1:00:56

to say you I'm going to have to turn

1:00:58

this all in you know and and like

1:01:00

getting to play that And for me

1:01:02

also I like you know without being you

1:01:04

know sanctimonious or preachy because I

1:01:06

really think movies we're talking about

1:01:08

like what they do well what they do very

1:01:10

poorly is deliver messages or lecture.

1:01:12

as soon as you get into that thing.

1:01:13

>> Yeah.

1:01:14

>> The audience is like, I you know, I'm

1:01:16

going to go to church for that or

1:01:17

school for I don't need that

1:01:19

here. Um, but I like that what was

1:01:22

underneath it is like this is a

1:01:24

hard job and and that there's a lot like

1:01:27

there's a lot of value like the these

1:01:29

characters, the ones that are trying to

1:01:30

do their job are trying to get through

1:01:32

the day and just at the end of the day

1:01:34

have done their job like they said they

1:01:36

were going to do, you know, adhere to

1:01:38

the ethics that they're supposed

1:01:39

to and at the end of the day be able to

1:01:41

sleep at night and believe there's some

1:01:42

value in not stealing the money

1:01:45

or flipping somebody over, you know what

1:01:46

I mean? And doing all that And

1:01:48

that's the win. The wind doesn't have to

1:01:50

be get away with the bag of money or

1:01:52

you know save the world from uh

1:01:54

you know the evil scientist laser beam

1:01:56

or whatever. It's like the end of the

1:01:58

day if you can live with

1:01:59

yourself and say look you know I quitted

1:02:01

myself according to what the

1:02:02

expectations were and what my true to my

1:02:04

word and I I think there's so like

1:02:07

that's a I don't know that that affected

1:02:09

me. I I found that kind of moving and

1:02:10

and you can't do it if you create like

1:02:13

if you to credit to Joe Script like just

1:02:15

two dimensional characters. I'm the

1:02:16

hero, I'm the villain or this person

1:02:17

would never do that. They all have to be

1:02:19

real people like you would be subject to

1:02:21

like

1:02:22

>> temptation. Money just represents

1:02:24

whatever that thing is you think you

1:02:25

want or that's going to make your life

1:02:27

better. You're you know it's something

1:02:29

different to everybody. But, you know,

1:02:31

and especially when you're like you're

1:02:33

facing like real, you know, the custody

1:02:35

thing or the, you know, the sick

1:02:36

relative or or whatever it is, that's

1:02:39

it's a real thing. Nobody's immune to to

1:02:41

to that kind of temptation. You know,

1:02:43

sometimes I think it's cavalier to be

1:02:45

like, "Oh, well, you're dirty." You're

1:02:46

not putting people in a very tough

1:02:48

situation a lot of times, particularly

1:02:50

if they're feeling like undervalued. I

1:02:52

like the woman scene where Catalina is

1:02:54

like, "I get pissed. I get

1:02:56

yelled at. I get on." You know what

1:02:58

I mean? like I'm out here grinding every

1:03:00

day.

1:03:01

>> You know, it's uh it's a lot to a lot to

1:03:04

ask and I think it's it's worth kind of

1:03:06

making that, you know, heroic without

1:03:09

sort of indicating too much.

1:03:11

>> No, it's really well written because

1:03:13

there's no suspension of disbelief

1:03:15

moments. It's a it's a and that's hard

1:03:16

to do in a big blockbuster action movie.

1:03:19

There's always one movie moment in a

1:03:21

movie where you're like, "What? Come on.

1:03:23

How do you do that? That's

1:03:24

>> convenient." You guys don't have any of

1:03:25

those. There's none of that. And I loved

1:03:27

it. I loved it. I loved that that aspect

1:03:30

of it too where it felt like all of it

1:03:32

was like I believed it.

1:03:33

>> I believed it.

1:03:34

>> And that that's really a credit to Joe

1:03:36

and his like taste [clears throat] and

1:03:37

that's why we really thought like this

1:03:39

guy knew how to make narc. He kind of

1:03:41

obviously understood this world and

1:03:43

understood that it has to

1:03:45

>> above all it has to feel real and that's

1:03:47

why he was open to like okay whatever

1:03:49

happens you throw in a line maybe it's

1:03:51

good. can't get your feeling hurt if

1:03:52

it's not, you know, but like you got to

1:03:54

be able to take that shot and we're all

1:03:56

down, you know, trying to spend time

1:03:58

with people. I mean, I kind of feel for

1:03:59

these cops, a bunch of actors descend on

1:04:01

you and they're like, "What what kind of

1:04:02

sweatshirt is that?" You know,

1:04:03

[laughter]

1:04:04

>> it was like that Michael J. Fox, James

1:04:05

Woods [snorts] movie. Remember that

1:04:07

movie when he I forget what it was

1:04:09

called, but he's Michael J. Fox is an

1:04:11

actor following around James Woods. He's

1:04:12

he's studying him for a character and

1:04:14

James Woods is a real like detective and

1:04:16

he's just like,

1:04:17

>> "Get this guy away from me." I kept

1:04:18

thinking of that

1:04:19

>> kind of hair gel you use.

1:04:20

>> Yeah. Yeah. like all these questions,

1:04:22

[laughter] you know, but they were very

1:04:24

tolerant of us, which was which was nice

1:04:26

and and uh and uh and really really

1:04:29

helpful, you know, because it's all it's

1:04:31

always details. It's always details.

1:04:34

It's like how fastidiously do you do you

1:04:36

kind of mind for those details? Cuz I'm

1:04:39

I've always been convinced that like an

1:04:40

audience,

1:04:42

>> it's like you were saying, they don't

1:04:43

analyze why they don't believe

1:04:45

something. They feel it. They just don't

1:04:47

believe it.

1:04:48

>> And it's usually because those details

1:04:51

are you you don't get those

1:04:52

>> and that's the only thing like I'm not

1:04:54

great at imagining something let's

1:04:56

invent this everything that I've done

1:04:58

like that I that I like is been a result

1:05:01

of something I found to research like

1:05:02

for the town I went down and just went

1:05:04

through the you know all the prisons you

1:05:07

know out there in Massachusetts federal

1:05:08

prisons state prisons and sat down and

1:05:10

talked to guys who robbed trucks and

1:05:12

banks and you know kind of sometimes you

1:05:15

know you want to know and then sat down

1:05:16

with the FBI guys and was like what are

1:05:18

they like and the great you know,

1:05:20

for me is that, you know, and I'm in

1:05:22

like uh I'm in like wet wallpap or I'm

1:05:25

in the prison denim or whatever and I'm

1:05:27

to some guy I said like after talking

1:05:29

for two hours, you know, I was like,

1:05:31

"Does anything just weird ever

1:05:33

happened or up? Anything you

1:05:34

remember?" The guy was like, "Yeah, one

1:05:36

time uh you know, we were coming out of

1:05:39

this thing, we robbed his truck and you

1:05:41

know, we we had the mask, we got the

1:05:42

switch car, we drove around the corner

1:05:43

and whatever. We pull up and we get out

1:05:45

guns and the mass hold things

1:05:47

and we look over and it's this cop

1:05:49

sitting there doing construction duty

1:05:51

and I was like right then didn't even

1:05:53

tell me the story. I was like oh I

1:05:55

was like what happened? He goes, you

1:05:57

know, he looked at us, we looked at him,

1:06:01

he looked the other way.

1:06:02

>> Whoa.

1:06:03

>> And I was like, really? He goes, yeah,

1:06:04

he didn't want to end up on the wall at

1:06:05

the VFW.

1:06:07

>> It was like

1:06:08

>> these guys with full automatic weapons,

1:06:09

masks on switching cars. I was like,

1:06:12

"All right, I'm putting that in the

1:06:13

movie."

1:06:13

>> And it's it's in the it's a great moment

1:06:15

in the town, like in the movie cuz you

1:06:18

know, Rener, they all jump out of the

1:06:19

things and then and he Oh, yeah. Here it

1:06:21

is.

1:06:22

>> Exactly.

1:06:23

>> It was like

1:06:24

>> It's great. And it's this awkward.

1:06:26

>> They just stop and dude.

1:06:29

>> He sees him. They see him.

1:06:33

>> He's [clears throat] like a We

1:06:34

have to kill this guy.

1:06:38

>> Nope. He turns away.

1:06:40

>> Okay. Wow.

1:06:44

[laughter]

1:06:44

>> It's such a great But that's straight

1:06:45

from research. I always love that story.

1:06:48

Um and then he and then the line is here

1:06:51

that he put it here

1:06:52

>> and one on the wall of BFW. Yeah. It was

1:06:54

a great, you know, it's a great line.

1:06:56

>> It was such a simple explanation for

1:06:58

what why do you think what do you think

1:06:59

he did, you know, and why? Like

1:07:01

>> and that's exactly what it would have

1:07:03

been like that guy next day's picture

1:07:05

would have been up in the wall at the

1:07:06

VFW.

1:07:07

>> Yeah. [snorts]

1:07:07

>> You know, and he knew it and everybody

1:07:09

knew it. He said he didn't want to do it

1:07:11

like that. You know, that was and that

1:07:13

that kind of stuff is uh I don't know.

1:07:15

It's very human human calculations and

1:07:18

interact. I a very extreme version of

1:07:20

it, but it also doesn't have sometimes.

1:07:22

It's not dramatic at all, you know? It's

1:07:24

like that was an easy decision and the

1:07:26

guy never says anything. I didn't say

1:07:27

anything, you know, and kind of can't

1:07:29

really blame him, you know? It's uh

1:07:32

>> The Town was a great movie, too,

1:07:34

man. And I I knew a lot of people like

1:07:36

that, you know, from boxing gyms and

1:07:38

stuff. I I knew a guy who was a hitman

1:07:40

for Whitey Bulier.

1:07:42

>> I knew a guy who was a a friend of a

1:07:44

brother of mine who went to jail for

1:07:46

that for murder for killing people.

1:07:48

>> Yeah.

1:07:49

>> What town did you grow up in?

1:07:50

>> I lived in Newton. I Yeah. I grew up in

1:07:53

I lived in Jamaica playing for a little

1:07:54

while and I lived in Newton, but I I

1:07:56

spent a lot of time in Boston because I

1:07:58

was fighting. I was mostly training. And

1:08:00

so I was around a lot of these like very

1:08:02

shady characters

1:08:03

>> who were in the fighting world and a lot

1:08:06

of them had backgrounds in crime.

1:08:08

one of the guys that I went to that I

1:08:10

trained with, he went to jail for a

1:08:11

little while and then he got uh arrested

1:08:14

because a guy got killed and they broke

1:08:18

every bone in his body with a hammer and

1:08:20

kept injecting him with cocaine to keep

1:08:22

him keep him awake while they were doing

1:08:24

it and then they cut his hands off and

1:08:26

cut his head off. Jesus.

1:08:28

>> And this guy that I used to train with

1:08:29

got arrested for that.

1:08:31

>> Jesus.

1:08:31

>> Yeah. He didn't wind up going to jail

1:08:33

for that. He's dead now, but he was it

1:08:37

somehow or another at least

1:08:39

peripherilally involved.

1:08:40

>> Yeah. Well, I didn't do any fighting,

1:08:42

but I I went around and found a lot of

1:08:44

the one of the things about be, you

1:08:46

know, being an actor, people will talk

1:08:48

to you, you know, which is a

1:08:49

amazing gift. Even if somebody's like,

1:08:51

"Oh yeah, I killed guys." You know,

1:08:53

they'll just come out and like it's kind

1:08:55

of the rules all of a sudden don't

1:08:56

apply. Like these guys in the prison,

1:08:57

what the are they going to talk?

1:08:58

You know what I mean? But they're like

1:08:59

interested in it for whatever. And you

1:09:02

know, so so you avail yourself of that

1:09:04

and and then I had like, you know, we

1:09:05

had people around that movie who

1:09:08

everybody knew, yeah, he did that job.

1:09:09

He he never got arrested. And so like,

1:09:12

yeah, people, you know, meet PE, you

1:09:13

know, and and uh and talk to him. And

1:09:16

it's interesting because the such a good

1:09:18

lesson for for doing this job which is

1:09:20

that they're never how you think they're

1:09:22

supposed to be like the murderer person,

1:09:25

you know, there's always something a

1:09:26

little I remember one guy was supposed

1:09:28

to be like this really violent kind of

1:09:29

loose cannon

1:09:31

>> guy who supposedly had done all this

1:09:33

stabbed and killed two people

1:09:35

Faniel Hall and shot these guys in a in

1:09:38

a robbery and he like shows up with his

1:09:40

polo shirt kind of tucked in, you know,

1:09:42

how's it going? you know, just like I

1:09:44

never would have put this guy on

1:09:46

killing [laughter] four people,

1:09:47

you know what I mean? And they got to

1:09:48

have a good time. So, I love that one

1:09:50

movie and you're just thinking,

1:09:51

man. Like, this is what And it's a

1:09:54

really good lesson for like, you know,

1:09:56

we tend to read a script and okay, this

1:09:58

guy's the tough guy and he's going to be

1:10:00

the it's like you work with like I have

1:10:02

the like the opportunity to

1:10:03

train with these Delta guys like you

1:10:05

know, it's the most elite special forces

1:10:08

combat operators in the world. I

1:10:11

mean, I suppose the seals will take

1:10:12

exception to that, but what just

1:10:13

numerically, right? I think there's been

1:10:15

less than 900 guys ever in the history

1:10:16

of Delta. You meet them and it's they're

1:10:20

not the biggest guys. They're not the

1:10:21

toughest guys. They're not trying to

1:10:22

be hard and, you know, they're

1:10:24

the most relaxed at ease and it, you

1:10:28

know, I found myself just being like

1:10:29

finally I was like, what can I just ask

1:10:31

what do you think makes somebody like

1:10:33

qualify for the the Delta Force? Like

1:10:35

what's a good Delta operator? He's like,

1:10:38

"Uh, you know, problem solving."

1:10:41

Problem solving? The guy goes, "Yeah,

1:10:43

it's probably like your job." I was

1:10:44

like, "No, let me take notice.

1:10:45

[laughter]

1:10:46

It's really not like my job." I

1:10:47

appreciate it. A very big

1:10:50

difference. He's like, "Yeah, you solve

1:10:51

problems like trying to kill me." See,

1:10:53

that's the thing. [laughter]

1:10:54

But that that [snorts] was the closest

1:10:55

insight I got to it, which was I've

1:10:58

always kind of thought this about like a

1:11:00

guys like like Brady or something.

1:11:01

There's guys that just don't get tight

1:11:05

and that they they are kind of able to

1:11:07

problem solve when the problem is like,

1:11:09

well, that helicopter's crashed and

1:11:10

we're 200 miles inside Afghanistan and

1:11:12

we're outnumbered six to one.

1:11:14

How do you think we should get home?

1:11:15

like just having your wits about you to

1:11:18

make that calculation while by the way

1:11:20

you're in a gunfight and things

1:11:22

you know I'm sure that does make cuz

1:11:24

those are the people where it was I'd be

1:11:25

in a panic and I have no idea

1:11:27

what to do and you get like attracted to

1:11:30

the person who who's like seems to have

1:11:32

it like hey I'm it's good we're going to

1:11:34

be okay everybody get your we're

1:11:36

going over here you'll just follow that

1:11:38

guy you know what I mean

1:11:39

>> and uh but it's a good it's not always

1:11:41

the most

1:11:43

>> maybe it's just because they're so

1:11:44

confident they're not like I Like I

1:11:46

don't need to prove that I can kick

1:11:47

anybody's ass. I don't even get it in

1:11:48

fights like have a weapon, you know what

1:11:50

I mean? [laughter] It's kind of like

1:11:52

it's it's just a it surprises me what it

1:11:56

how those kinds of like extraordinary

1:11:58

experiences in people or extraordinary

1:12:00

people don't always manifest themselves

1:12:02

in how they show up,

1:12:04

>> right? We have caricatures in our head

1:12:06

of what like these tough people are

1:12:08

like. Well, you you see that about MMA

1:12:10

fighters. Like there's a lot of MMA

1:12:11

fighters. you meet them, they're like

1:12:13

the sweetest, nicest, friendliest people

1:12:15

in the world.

1:12:15

>> I remember going to one of the events at

1:12:17

in LA. I think it was a Staples and and

1:12:21

I was backstage and and was talking to

1:12:24

uh one of like the lawyers for the UFC

1:12:26

about we were talking about Conor

1:12:28

McGregor and he was telling me a great

1:12:29

story about him and [snorts] this guy

1:12:32

walks up and he's in a like chinos like

1:12:35

khaki pants and like a blue button-up

1:12:38

like you know kind of business shirt

1:12:40

with spectacles and he's very small and

1:12:44

I kind of don't really regard him and

1:12:46

I'm still hearing this story. And then

1:12:48

Patrick goes, "Matt, do you know Henry?"

1:12:50

And I turn and it's Henry Cejudo. And

1:12:52

I'm like, "This guy could wreck

1:12:55

me, right? [laughter]

1:12:57

Absolutely destroy me." And he

1:13:01

and he is the guy that some dummy would

1:13:03

try to pick on.

1:13:04

>> Yeah. [clears throat] You know what I

1:13:05

mean? Like he does not he's not carrying

1:13:07

himself like he's he just is the thing,

1:13:10

you know?

1:13:10

>> And they find out a little bit too late.

1:13:13

>> Yeah. Don't find that one out late.

1:13:14

Yeah.

1:13:15

>> Yeah. A lot of guys do,

1:13:17

>> unfortunately. Yeah, that's uh it's uh

1:13:20

well, they don't have to prove

1:13:21

themselves, right? They do it all the

1:13:22

time. The same with Delta Force guys.

1:13:24

Like this idea like this like outwardly

1:13:27

brash tough guy. Usually that kind of

1:13:29

machismo and

1:13:31

>> that's That's you're you're

1:13:32

using that cuz you're insecure. The

1:13:34

secure people are very calm and and

1:13:37

genuinely very friendly.

1:13:38

>> Really nice. Yeah, that's been my

1:13:40

experience.

1:13:41

>> Yeah, it's crazy, right? Beautiful, too.

1:13:43

You know, I've kind of like

1:13:44

>> what a great guy. And you feel like

1:13:45

that's nice of you to be so so sweet to

1:13:47

me cuz you obviously you don't have to

1:13:49

be. [laughter]

1:13:50

>> I'll just give you my watch if you

1:13:51

wanted that.

1:13:53

>> Yeah. No, it's it is a fascinating

1:13:56

thing. It's like we have these ideas in

1:13:58

our head, these caricatures, you know,

1:14:00

of what what a a tough man is, what a

1:14:02

good woman is, what this is, what that

1:14:04

is. M

1:14:04

>> as I think one of the beautiful things

1:14:06

about film when a film is really good is

1:14:09

you see these complex characters and it

1:14:11

sort of like reformulates in your mind

1:14:13

like what a person actually is.

1:14:15

>> Yeah. It's seeing all kinds of different

1:14:16

people. Yeah.

1:14:17

>> You know and and Yeah. Yeah. I

1:14:20

completely agree.

1:14:20

>> I mean look the fundamental like

1:14:22

challenge I think in life and is like

1:14:25

it's like to find some humility which

1:14:29

means actually thinking you might be

1:14:30

wrong about the that you're pretty

1:14:32

sure about. And it means that like you

1:14:34

kind of have to assume somebody else

1:14:36

might have a point, you know? It's not

1:14:38

like just writing everybody else off who

1:14:40

disagrees with you because him,

1:14:41

he's an He's, you know, like

1:14:44

those are things that actually take work

1:14:46

to get to because the the first instinct

1:14:49

because you just defend your idea or

1:14:51

whatever. It's easier is to just

1:14:52

>> that it's a zero sum game. Yeah. That

1:14:54

that two competing ideas can't exist.

1:14:57

that somebody can't be a good person

1:14:58

like

1:15:01

if you decide it's you disagree we don't

1:15:03

believe so I don't know what about this

1:15:04

or what about that

1:15:06

>> but once you find yourself relying on

1:15:07

like well I need to like zero out this

1:15:09

person's humanity in order to defend my

1:15:11

idea

1:15:12

>> I think that's a pretty good indicator

1:15:14

that like there's something wrong with

1:15:15

the way you're thinking like because it

1:15:17

can't be that you're right about

1:15:18

everything and everyone else is bad who

1:15:20

disagrees with you

1:15:21

>> I think that was one of the most

1:15:22

interesting things about the Sopranos is

1:15:25

that the main character The guy that you

1:15:28

loved was a murderer.

1:15:30

>> Yeah.

1:15:30

>> He was like who would murder his

1:15:32

friends.

1:15:33

>> He was a a complete mobster and a thug.

1:15:36

But you really loved him.

1:15:38

>> Loved the out of cared about. It

1:15:39

was so complicated.

1:15:42

My daughter doing the part that you

1:15:44

found yourself being like, I don't I

1:15:46

think you probably has to kill him now.

1:15:48

I gota kill.

1:15:49

>> That's also that's also great a great

1:15:51

actor. Like there's a very famous story

1:15:53

about Marlon Brando when he did street

1:15:55

car Named Desire and Tennessee Williams

1:15:58

who wrote it like freaked out because he

1:16:02

was making Stanley Kowalsski he was

1:16:04

making people empathize with Stanley

1:16:06

Kowalsski and Tennessee Williams was

1:16:08

like but I wrote him as a brute. He's

1:16:10

this he was like a two-dimensional brute

1:16:12

who just came and beat up his wife and

1:16:14

you know and and was just and was

1:16:16

supposed to be this kind of dark looming

1:16:17

force over the play. But Brando was

1:16:19

like, "No, he's a human being and I'm

1:16:21

gonna play him like a human

1:16:22

being and and it changed the the play."

1:16:26

But but Williams reflects life in the

1:16:29

real world. Everybody's the hero of

1:16:31

their story. Everyone has the reasons

1:16:32

for why they're doing and people don't

1:16:34

set out to be like, I'm just going to or

1:16:36

hurt someone or dominate the world. Like

1:16:38

you think, well, I got to protect what I

1:16:39

have. It's like even, you know, not

1:16:41

bringing back to this movie, but it's

1:16:42

like what I liked about RIP was it was

1:16:44

kind of the slippery slope. you know

1:16:45

that first time you take a little money

1:16:47

and then well you know I gota cover that

1:16:49

I don't want to go to jail and my reason

1:16:51

why I did that but now I've told a lie

1:16:53

now I got to cover that thing and now

1:16:55

you have guys who both live by this code

1:16:57

that's very hey you protect the people

1:16:59

who are with you and you got to have

1:17:00

this and so now it's two people

1:17:02

are very similar like by that kind of

1:17:04

slippery slope ultimately find

1:17:06

themselves you know willing to kill one

1:17:09

another uh because and it's really not I

1:17:11

don't I don't believe in that one choice

1:17:13

turn it's like more how do you find

1:17:15

yourself, you dig yourself in a

1:17:17

hole cuz you're just covering up the la

1:17:19

trying to fix the last problem that's

1:17:21

arisen, you know, and everybody thinks a

1:17:23

b is of course the roots for themsel is

1:17:25

like empathize with themselves. That's

1:17:27

what we have to be concerned with

1:17:28

ourselves, our needs, our families, our

1:17:30

basic It's a hard to expect people

1:17:33

to go like, "All right, and and and what

1:17:35

about, you know, like what they think?"

1:17:38

And I and I think that's I think it's a

1:17:41

it's a much more honest evaluation of

1:17:43

people. And it allows for like

1:17:44

complexity and forgiveness and

1:17:46

all the that's sort of beautiful

1:17:49

about people like rather than this

1:17:51

notion of like, well, we're going to be

1:17:53

binary, good or bad, perfect or not,

1:17:55

whatever, and any infraction then it's

1:17:57

like permanently stains you. Right.

1:18:00

Like we were talking about earlier about

1:18:02

people that have been cancelled, you

1:18:03

know, that that this idea that one thing

1:18:07

you said or one thing you did and now

1:18:09

we're going to exaggerate that to the

1:18:11

fullest extent and cast you out of

1:18:12

civilization for life

1:18:13

>> in perpetuity. Yeah.

1:18:14

>> It's crazy. And it's

1:18:16

>> Yeah. I was because because I bet some

1:18:19

of those people would have preferred to

1:18:21

go to jail for 18 months or whatever to

1:18:25

and and and then come out and say, "No,

1:18:26

but I that that we can't I I paid my

1:18:29

debt. Like, we're done. Like, can we be

1:18:31

done?" Like, the the the thing about

1:18:33

about that, you know, getting kind of

1:18:36

excoriated

1:18:38

publicly like that, it's it just never

1:18:40

ends. And it's and it's the first thing

1:18:42

that you know it's just it just will

1:18:45

follow you to the grave. I think

1:18:46

>> it's also this problem that people have

1:18:48

with people that are in the public eye.

1:18:49

They have this like desire to chop them

1:18:51

down always, you know, and anybody that

1:18:54

stumbles in the public eye. They want to

1:18:55

destroy their life and they want to just

1:18:57

pile on and you're not there with them.

1:18:59

You don't feel the empathy. You're not

1:19:01

talking to they're not a human being.

1:19:03

It's just text on a screen.

1:19:04

>> Right.

1:19:05

>> Yeah. It's just like kind of like I was

1:19:06

saying like that kind of sixth grade

1:19:08

instinct to be like, "Oh, he's in

1:19:10

trouble." You know, there's this we, you

1:19:12

know, human like we have dark up

1:19:15

instincts too sometimes to like isolate

1:19:17

people or get joy out of someone else's

1:19:20

they're in trouble because maybe because

1:19:21

part of it saying, "Hey, it's not me,

1:19:23

you know." So if you can point the

1:19:24

finger, everyone's looking over there.

1:19:26

We feel safer, you know?

1:19:27

>> Right.

1:19:28

>> But it's it's like Yeah. And to to to

1:19:30

take any forgiveness out of it, you

1:19:32

know, is a really up thing

1:19:34

because then it makes it impossible a to

1:19:36

actually go, "All right, yeah, I did

1:19:38

that. That was wrong. I get

1:19:40

it." You know, because it doesn't matter

1:19:42

once you've said you've done it. You you

1:19:44

become like an outcast. And I don't

1:19:46

think anybody wants to think, you know,

1:19:48

like you're the sum total of who you are

1:19:49

is your worst moment, right?

1:19:51

>> You know, it's sort of like

1:19:52

>> the you know, you know, I think you want

1:19:54

to be judged just as well. Are you

1:19:56

capable of doing something good or

1:19:57

something beautiful? It's not to say to

1:19:58

forget, you know, there's people that

1:19:59

just over and over and over again doing

1:20:01

horrible don't care. I get it. No

1:20:03

one's trying to like absolve that, but

1:20:05

you remove the ability to sort of

1:20:07

forgive people or look at them in a

1:20:09

complicated way. Or else it's kind of

1:20:10

one become of those things. It's like a

1:20:12

>> get one of ours or one of them, the

1:20:14

instinct to get like a team tribal

1:20:17

oriented and it just becomes a sport,

1:20:19

you know?

1:20:19

>> Yeah. Yeah. It's also like who wants to

1:20:22

live in a world with no forgiveness and

1:20:23

redemption? That's crazy. Like that's

1:20:26

just denying the very nature of human

1:20:28

beings

1:20:29

>> and that people do things that they

1:20:31

regret and they do and then they become

1:20:32

better people because of it and to

1:20:35

>> yeah some of the people I would rely on

1:20:37

the most like trust my kids with the

1:20:38

most have done that they that they

1:20:41

really regret and you know was yeah

1:20:43

objectively wrong and then the people

1:20:45

who've been like a I did that I

1:20:46

whether it's like addiction I

1:20:48

got myself down this route I did

1:20:49

this I did this they're able to go I did

1:20:51

it I'm sorry it's real I shouldn't have

1:20:54

done it it was wrong that actually that

1:20:56

those people can become someone that's

1:20:58

very trustworthy because you're like

1:21:00

this will say if they've

1:21:02

done something they'll actually look at

1:21:03

their own behavior they'll acknowledge

1:21:05

it and then you feel you feel good and

1:21:07

you feel much versus someone who tells

1:21:09

you like I'm I'm no I got all I always

1:21:11

get right everything's

1:21:12

>> well it's like it's all it's about

1:21:13

evolution right and and and in our own

1:21:16

personal evolution and we're all in our

1:21:18

on our own path towards that like the

1:21:21

the the idea of attacking someone it's

1:21:23

like Oh, so you you ace the test like

1:21:26

put your pencil down like you nailed

1:21:28

being human

1:21:30

>> you're done that if you nail being human

1:21:33

that's not possible because you forgot

1:21:35

about the part about forgiveness which

1:21:37

is a giant

1:21:37

>> part you haven't nailed it by definition

1:21:39

if you're out there throwing stones

1:21:41

>> it's most of the people that I find

1:21:42

especially when there's someone that's

1:21:43

publicly in trouble for something most

1:21:45

of the people that I know that have

1:21:47

attacked people have a lot of

1:21:48

questionable in their past and it's

1:21:50

almost like they're trying to hide that

1:21:52

by going on the attack. That's that

1:21:53

thing like if I can point my finger,

1:21:54

it's like no one's going to be

1:21:56

>> Yeah. Oh, he's a good guy. Ben's a good

1:21:58

guy. He's calling them out.

1:21:59

>> Yeah, exactly.

1:22:00

>> Meanwhile, you know,

1:22:02

>> if you like like

1:22:03

>> Yeah. I It's like you you were telling

1:22:05

me to see uh wake up dead man, the

1:22:07

knives out the third knives. It's great.

1:22:09

And I watched I really liked it. I

1:22:10

thought it was a really interesting like

1:22:12

>> you know I'm not a religious guy. I

1:22:14

don't like that's you know and yeah I'm

1:22:16

aware of all the like okay you know

1:22:18

there's the religion then there's people

1:22:20

who supposed to be rational. I thought

1:22:21

it was a really beautiful movie about

1:22:24

like what's the role of grace in life

1:22:26

you know and and a really honest

1:22:28

examination of that like sitting doesn't

1:22:31

side by side with yeah okay you don't

1:22:33

believe that but like you and you know

1:22:36

and it's not about like whether you're

1:22:37

going to argue over evolution.

1:22:39

It's about like how graceful are you in

1:22:42

your life, you know? How much

1:22:44

dignity can you afford other people? And

1:22:45

are you willing to recognize and see

1:22:47

that there's maybe something bigger than

1:22:49

yourself and that there's a reason to to

1:22:51

like uh to try to sort of be

1:22:53

>> to find that grace to get better, you

1:22:55

know? I thought it was really beautiful

1:22:56

and kind of rare and

1:22:58

>> uh really surprised.

1:22:59

>> I was really surprised, too. I I kind of

1:23:01

put it on and not, you know, not not

1:23:03

thinking murder myster I I loved it.

1:23:06

Yeah.

1:23:07

>> Yeah. I loved it, too. I think it's one

1:23:08

of the best of the three.

1:23:10

>> It's uh my favorite. It was my favorite

1:23:12

of the three.

1:23:12

>> Those are great. Daniel Craig is great

1:23:14

in that role.

1:23:15

>> He's fantastic.

1:23:16

>> I mean, guy goes from James Bond to that

1:23:18

and so many other things as well. Joshua

1:23:21

Joshua Connor that who played the

1:23:22

priest. I because I first saw him on uh

1:23:25

on the crown.

1:23:26

>> Crown. Yeah, I liked him a lot.

1:23:28

>> I Man, what an actor he is.

1:23:30

>> Really, really good.

1:23:31

>> How much film do you guys consume? Do

1:23:33

you do you spend a lot of time watching

1:23:35

films? I mean, the company depends.

1:23:38

There's a lot like if we're working as

1:23:39

we're watching cuts after cuts and going

1:23:41

to the editing room, like there's a lot

1:23:42

of kind of work around

1:23:45

all the stuff that we have going that

1:23:46

that that eats into a lot of time.

1:23:48

>> I'm mostly trying to keep up with what

1:23:51

people are doing. My issue is really

1:23:53

that like we've kind of developed this

1:23:55

pattern where all these sort of movies

1:23:56

that come out and are more interesting

1:23:58

and very like they're all jammed out at

1:24:00

the last month of the year. And

1:24:01

so all of a sudden you're trying to race

1:24:03

these movies. Yeah. I got really lucky

1:24:05

like uh recently my son you know who's

1:24:08

13 decided he wants to like watch movies

1:24:12

you know and I like give him like

1:24:13

what are you we always looking

1:24:14

at Tik Tok and like let's watch a

1:24:16

movie and you know he's kind of blowing

1:24:18

me off and roll his eyes and like you

1:24:20

know I mean if you're a dad you're kind

1:24:21

of an fundamentally like come on

1:24:23

dad you don't know what's going on you

1:24:24

know what I mean like he told me one

1:24:26

time he was like dad I said let's watch

1:24:28

this movie and I played in the trailer

1:24:30

it was it was I can't remember what the

1:24:32

movie was it was a good movie and the

1:24:34

trailer was good. He just looks at it

1:24:36

and goes, "You know what you guys ought

1:24:37

to do? You guys ought to work with some

1:24:39

of the TikTok editors." I was just

1:24:41

[laughter] like, "Wow."

1:24:44

I went and told the editors, I told

1:24:45

Billy and Chris, I like, "Guys, I got

1:24:47

news for you [laughter] guys." But but

1:24:50

now he's like, "All right, let's watch

1:24:51

like what are some movies I should

1:24:52

watch?" He got Ladder Box. He got into

1:24:54

that thing, you know? It's like, so I

1:24:55

was like, so I said, "Okay, what are the

1:24:57

great movies? I'll give you a list." I

1:24:58

started giving him a list. They started

1:25:00

watching them. And so, I mean, this is

1:25:02

like heaven for me. So I was like,

1:25:03

"Okay, what are you watching?" King of

1:25:04

Comedy. Like last week I watched Baxi

1:25:06

Driver, King K, all these Scorsese

1:25:08

movies

1:25:09

>> and it really was like, "Oh man, I I cuz

1:25:11

in my mind I'm like, "Sure, I've seen

1:25:13

that movie. I know it." I watched them

1:25:14

again. It was I like seeing I realized

1:25:17

how much better they were than I even

1:25:19

could appreciate when I watched it when

1:25:20

I was younger.

1:25:21

>> And it really and it was just the most

1:25:24

beautiful experience for me to

1:25:26

watch with my son. Like he's taking an

1:25:27

interest. And this is the, you know, the

1:25:29

older two have always been a little bit

1:25:30

like, "Yeah, dad, no. Great." But hey,

1:25:32

you guys want to come to the premiere?

1:25:33

No, not really. Uh, [laughter] you know

1:25:34

what I mean? You guys want to come to

1:25:36

the set? No, I'm good. You know,

1:25:37

>> well, it's just too much familiarity.

1:25:39

You know, you grew up with a dad who's a

1:25:41

movie star. You're just like,

1:25:42

>> the kids got in and I get it. You got to

1:25:44

be your own person, do your thing. They

1:25:45

have all their own and I get, you

1:25:47

know, I never even So, I never expected

1:25:49

it from my son and I don't know that

1:25:50

he's going to, you know, and I wouldn't

1:25:52

want to lean on him like, hey, get into

1:25:54

the family business.

1:25:55

>> Um, most of the time it's just like, you

1:25:57

know, we go to like basketball games,

1:25:59

baseball, all that type of stuff.

1:26:00

Um, but it but this was a really that

1:26:03

was like I was like so joyful, you know

1:26:06

what I mean? To sit there and watch the

1:26:08

movies with my my kid. I like I was like

1:26:11

this doesn't get better. This is the

1:26:12

happiest I may ever be in my whole life,

1:26:15

you know, right here. Watch this movie

1:26:17

and he's like, well, he's telling me

1:26:18

what he thinks, you know, just like like

1:26:21

honestly the rest of it you can

1:26:22

keep it, you know?

1:26:23

>> That's awesome.

1:26:24

>> That's the best. Well, it's great that

1:26:26

you guys still love film, you know, that

1:26:28

it's it hasn't become just a job. It

1:26:31

hasn't become a thing that you do that

1:26:32

you really enjoy it and love it.

1:26:34

>> Yeah. It was never a job. I mean, it

1:26:36

really like it was it was like the an

1:26:38

absolute dream from the time we were

1:26:40

kids. We did high school theater

1:26:43

together, you know? Like

1:26:44

>> that's crazy.

1:26:45

>> Yeah. Um,

1:26:46

>> it was like we're lucky to get it and

1:26:48

lucky to

1:26:49

>> the whole idea that you could even the

1:26:50

goal was like to make a living

1:26:52

>> to not have to be like, well, I'm an

1:26:53

actor, you know, slash a waiter,

1:26:55

contractor, dental assistant, whatever

1:26:57

[laughter] the it is, you know,

1:26:58

like actually I can earn money. I can

1:27:00

and we always figured like I don't need

1:27:02

that much, especially if we have kids.

1:27:03

Yeah. You know, okay, we can make a

1:27:05

living or it's, you know, maybe it's

1:27:06

going to be dinner theater or

1:27:08

maybe it's going to be rent. Maybe it's

1:27:09

going to be

1:27:09

>> there'll be a job somewhere that we can

1:27:11

find where we can do this and keep doing

1:27:13

it. Yeah. Well, there's something that I

1:27:15

mean, I love when people love things. I

1:27:17

I I spend time on YouTube watching

1:27:19

people like u fix watches, you know,

1:27:22

like I I don't know why, but I I love

1:27:24

when people make furniture. I love I

1:27:26

love watching people do things that they

1:27:28

really love that they're invested in. I

1:27:30

think we all have that thing in us where

1:27:33

we see someone who's got a passion for

1:27:35

something, someone who really loves it.

1:27:36

And that's what everybody really wants

1:27:38

in life, to be lost in the thing you

1:27:40

love, to have a purpose.

1:27:42

>> And it's beautiful.

1:27:43

Watching someone else with true purpose

1:27:45

is

1:27:46

>> very it's hypnotic. It reminds me of Joe

1:27:48

versus the volcano where he goes in to

1:27:49

buy luggage.

1:27:50

>> You like luggage, sir? He's like, uh, he

1:27:52

was luggage is the central preoccupation

1:27:55

of my life.

1:27:56

>> Guy's a luggage salesman and he

1:27:58

loves

1:27:59

>> nothing more than luggage.

1:28:01

And it's the greatest scene. I

1:28:03

[laughter] asked Tom Hanks about that

1:28:04

when I did Saving Private Ryan. I was

1:28:06

like, "Can you tell me about that

1:28:07

scene?" Cuz we love this scene so much.

1:28:08

And he go and he named the actor. He was

1:28:10

a Broadway actor, I guess. the guy he

1:28:11

came in he worked for like one day in

1:28:13

this scene and he's so good in that

1:28:15

movie and then at the very end he's

1:28:17

showing him all the luggage and Tom

1:28:19

Hanks has unlimited money to spend he

1:28:20

thinks he's dying and so he basically

1:28:22

goes like well what's the best luggage

1:28:24

and he goes well if you know and he

1:28:25

opens if I had the means sir and he

1:28:28

opens up this thing and there's this

1:28:29

trunk and it's like this music plays and

1:28:31

he opens it and Tom Hanks is like

1:28:33

>> I'll take two of them [clears throat] he

1:28:35

goes [laughter] may you live to be a

1:28:36

thousand years old

1:28:39

the greatest day of his

1:28:41

>> [laughter]

1:28:42

>> Oh god,

1:28:44

>> that's amazing. You guys have been in

1:28:45

some bangers, man.

1:28:48

>> Saving Private Ryan. That opening film,

1:28:50

The Storming of the Beach.

1:28:51

>> Unbelievable.

1:28:52

>> That might be the the most realistic

1:28:54

depiction of war that's ever been made.

1:28:56

>> So, I remember reading the script and

1:28:58

there was all this dialogue, all this

1:29:00

stuff that was written. I came late

1:29:01

because I'm only in the he shot it

1:29:03

chronologically and I'm only in the

1:29:04

last, you know, the last act of the

1:29:06

movie basically. and and uh and he told

1:29:10

me on set I was saying how I go how did

1:29:12

it go the beginning go you know there's

1:29:14

that all that dialogue with them on the

1:29:16

boat coming in and and Stephen goes he

1:29:19

just goes I cut I cut all of that out he

1:29:22

goes he goes no talking for the first 27

1:29:25

minutes of this movie

1:29:27

>> and that was when I was like oh my god

1:29:29

this movie is going to be

1:29:30

>> un

1:29:31

>> I think Tom says like I'll see you on

1:29:33

the beach or something he scre you know

1:29:34

guys are puking

1:29:35

>> look at the man next to Yeah, remember

1:29:37

he's not going to live to that. That was

1:29:38

the script, right? Remember that? It was

1:29:40

it was it was look at the man next to

1:29:42

you, he won't live. You know, you're

1:29:43

like, "Two out of three of you are going

1:29:44

to die. So, look at to your left, look

1:29:46

to your right, and feel bad for those

1:29:48

two sons of cuz they're not

1:29:50

going to make it." You know, it was

1:29:51

stuff like that. And Stephen's just

1:29:53

like, "Nope.

1:29:54

>> No, no. These guys are puking. They're

1:29:57

It's like the things up. You could just

1:29:58

hear,

1:30:00

you know, and it's just like and then

1:30:01

just boom, and you're into it." And also

1:30:04

they did this incredible like cinema

1:30:07

changing open the shutter all the way

1:30:10

motion blur skip the the bleach process

1:30:13

in developing the film.

1:30:14

>> I don't and I don't know if they're

1:30:17

going to 22 or 23 frames anywhere in

1:30:19

there maybe. But I I I just remember

1:30:21

maybe it's just the open shutters just

1:30:24

yeah it just means that instead of like

1:30:25

the motion blur is what makes something

1:30:26

that like moves across the frame

1:30:28

quickly. If you look at each frame, it's

1:30:30

like a blurred thing. And when you roll

1:30:32

those 24 frames, it gives you this the

1:30:34

illusion that it moves across fluidly.

1:30:36

And if you basically open the shutter up

1:30:38

so you get much more light. Each frame

1:30:40

takes a super sharp picture. And when

1:30:42

you run those together, like the piece

1:30:43

of dust goes,

1:30:45

>> and so the mortar explosions are going

1:30:47

and it and you get that feeling that

1:30:49

you're adrenalized and you're seeing,

1:30:50

you know what I mean? And it's just and

1:30:52

nobody had ever done it. just the master

1:30:55

of the thing, understood how to use the

1:30:57

tools and combined with a great idea and

1:30:59

it's

1:30:59

>> that's just masterful. Like that's just

1:31:01

how you do it. There's nobody who

1:31:02

directs movies who doesn't go ah it's

1:31:04

Spielberg, you know, it's that's how you

1:31:06

do it.

1:31:07

>> It's just like you say, one of those

1:31:09

things a guy that's passionate and also,

1:31:11

>> you know, caring about something, you

1:31:14

know, it's that that to with that much

1:31:16

passion is kind of connected to

1:31:18

greatness. Yeah. And it's I think why we

1:31:21

love to see that whe you know sports

1:31:23

you know fighting or whatever it

1:31:26

is there's something that makes you kind

1:31:28

of love being alive and also love that

1:31:31

that person when you go like when

1:31:33

you see Michael Jordan like that was

1:31:34

that whole movie that we did airs really

1:31:36

all about like what does it mean to be

1:31:38

great and how does it like touch

1:31:40

everybody and change everybody and make

1:31:42

people want to improve their own

1:31:44

lives because somebody's just better at

1:31:47

at that thing than anybody else in the

1:31:50

world.

1:31:50

>> Yeah.

1:31:51

>> It's it's trans it's fixing you know I

1:31:53

mean I find that

1:31:55

>> really fascinating like I you know

1:31:57

people who are great at something and

1:31:59

the mystery of like well what is that

1:32:00

like and what does that do to your life

1:32:02

and how did you get that way and what

1:32:03

does it take you know

1:32:04

>> and [snorts] what's the cost

1:32:06

>> because to truly be great at something

1:32:08

you have to kind of almost abandon

1:32:09

everything. I I've seen that in various

1:32:12

ways like in that kind of just empirical

1:32:16

personal study. I haven't seen anybody

1:32:18

who I think like qualifies for that who

1:32:20

who didn't also seem to be really

1:32:22

suffering 100%

1:32:23

>> you know and you're like damn you should

1:32:24

be so happy you're the greatest you and

1:32:26

you know interviewers always how do you

1:32:28

feel right now and there's that sense

1:32:29

that like either it's never finished or

1:32:31

it's never enough or they can't enjoy it

1:32:33

or they're car it's that line we put in

1:32:36

air where it's like and you have to be

1:32:37

that thing to be that thing

1:32:38

>> you know like it's a kind of a burden

1:32:40

too in a way

1:32:41

>> 100%

1:32:42

>> and I just see that and that's why we we

1:32:44

want these heroes and people who are

1:32:46

great to I don't know, you know,

1:32:49

flourish and have their life and have it

1:32:50

all in hand. Like there's all this

1:32:51

tragedy and all this stuff that happens

1:32:53

too. And I I it's yeah that's like you

1:32:57

say there seems to be a real cost.

1:32:58

>> Well, there's always a massive cost in

1:33:00

personal relationships because there's

1:33:02

no way you have the time for other

1:33:03

things. And the obsession that you have

1:33:05

to be the best at something, you have to

1:33:07

abandon almost all your concern for

1:33:10

everything else. You have to have this

1:33:11

single-minded focus and that comes with

1:33:14

a cost for the rest of your life because

1:33:16

you damage relationships. You feel like

1:33:18

a piece of

1:33:19

>> and you see that up close and like

1:33:20

that's not admirable, right?

1:33:22

>> You don't give a about anybody

1:33:23

else. No, I do. I just care about this

1:33:26

more.

1:33:26

>> You know, it's like so imagine that

1:33:28

you're making the sacrifices and it's

1:33:30

causing injury to people and you know it

1:33:32

and you don't want to hurt them but you

1:33:33

can't help it

1:33:34

>> and you're getting rewarded for it. You

1:33:35

know, it's

1:33:36

>> it's complicated. Yeah. That's

1:33:38

>> it's crazy because you inspire all these

1:33:40

people that don't know you and you ruin

1:33:41

all your relationship. [laughter]

1:33:43

>> Right. That's right.

1:33:44

>> Maybe that's why I say don't meet your

1:33:45

heroes.

1:33:46

>> Yeah. Exactly.

1:33:47

>> There's something to it, man. There

1:33:49

really is.

1:33:50

>> But it's just we all grow from it.

1:33:53

There's a fuel to watching greatness.

1:33:56

>> There's a thing that that hits you and

1:33:58

lights you up where you want to do more.

1:34:00

You want to be better. you want to

1:34:02

whatever it is that you can do, whatever

1:34:04

it is you do do, you become more whether

1:34:06

it's a great game, a winning touchdown,

1:34:08

whether it's a great film, a great song.

1:34:11

Yeah. It lights you up and it it's the

1:34:13

fuel that we all live off of that

1:34:15

consumes that like we consume to make

1:34:18

our culture move forward.

1:34:19

>> Yeah.

1:34:20

>> There's like a sacrificial element to

1:34:22

it, the people that do it and we all

1:34:24

feed off of it, you know, and it feels

1:34:25

like, well, that's the person that

1:34:27

doesn't get enough out of it, you know?

1:34:28

>> Right. Right. But in great film, I mean,

1:34:31

how many lives have been changed by

1:34:33

decisions made after great films? Like

1:34:35

when I was a kid, I think I was like

1:34:37

seven or eight or something when Rocky

1:34:39

came out and I

1:34:41

>> I saw it and immediately ran around the

1:34:42

block. I've never won in my life.

1:34:44

[laughter]

1:34:44

Like I was eating raw eggs. I was like

1:34:47

I'm like this is going to change my

1:34:49

life. Like it it there's things that

1:34:51

happen when you see something truly

1:34:53

great that it makes you want to be

1:34:55

better as a human being.

1:34:56

I remember where I was when I saw Denzel

1:34:59

Washington play Malcolm X. Went to the

1:35:01

movie, watched that movie and I remember

1:35:03

leaving I was 19 or thinking I want to

1:35:05

be a better man.

1:35:06

>> I thought that in my mind, you know,

1:35:09

because of what I had seen

1:35:11

>> this actor do and this per and the way,

1:35:13

you know, that was the only real

1:35:14

conscious thought I had. But I remember

1:35:16

having it and and kind of being

1:35:18

surprised by it, you know, and it does

1:35:20

it it it that can, you know, it's

1:35:23

really touched me, you know, a lot of

1:35:24

people's work and and that's why

1:35:27

you get that like,

1:35:29

>> you know, you you you see people you

1:35:31

want to let them know, you know what I

1:35:32

mean? And tell them and um I I always

1:35:35

think people come to go, "Hey, I love

1:35:36

that movie." I always feel like, "Ah,

1:35:37

you don't have to say that." You know

1:35:38

what I mean? Right. uh it makes me kind

1:35:40

of uncomfortable and I I don't ever like

1:35:43

put myself in with those figures who I

1:35:45

think are like no but there's these

1:35:47

these towering giants who have done this

1:35:50

you know I don't know it's uh it's not

1:35:54

it's it's it's I finally kind of arrived

1:35:56

to a place where I was like it's always

1:35:57

uncomfortable oh I saw hunting it made

1:35:59

me want to go out to Hollywood write a

1:36:01

script and I think oh I [laughter]

1:36:03

go you know what I mean like man

1:36:07

a certain point I fig Okay, you know

1:36:09

what? Whatever it is, like great. That's

1:36:11

that's

1:36:12

>> the cost of your fame, you know, that

1:36:14

you have to there's going to be a bunch

1:36:15

of people that are going to come up to

1:36:16

you and then want to say those things to

1:36:17

you and like the wanting them to say

1:36:20

those things to you is the opposite of

1:36:23

the mindset that you need to make those

1:36:26

things.

1:36:26

>> Exactly. Exactly. [laughter]

1:36:27

>> Which is is so counterintuitive. You

1:36:29

think like once you become really

1:36:30

successful and you make a bunch of great

1:36:32

things, it's going to be awesome having

1:36:33

all these people come up to you like,

1:36:34

"No, no, no. I'm doing something else

1:36:36

right now. And I can't be all wrapped up

1:36:38

in the fact that I'm changing your

1:36:39

[laughter] life.

1:36:40

>> And also, I can't be satisfied or take

1:36:42

any joy in that cuz I I don't

1:36:44

think I'm good enough. I need to

1:36:46

You know what I mean?

1:36:47

>> Right. Never satisfied. Yeah. You can't.

1:36:49

And that's the the darkness of trying to

1:36:51

do something great. You'll never be

1:36:53

satisfied.

1:36:53

>> You see it in a lot of the fighters, the

1:36:55

same kind of thing. The great great

1:36:56

fighter.

1:36:57

>> Well, also fighters have a very small

1:36:59

window of greatness. There's there's

1:37:01

only like a certain amount of years we

1:37:03

can burn the RPMs at at the red line and

1:37:05

then eventually the knees go, the back

1:37:07

goes, you start.

1:37:08

>> Is it earlier than other sports? It must

1:37:09

be. Yeah.

1:37:10

>> Yes, I think so because like Tom Brady

1:37:13

is still elite. I bet he could probably

1:37:14

play football right now. I bet he You

1:37:16

know what? How old is Tom now? 49.

1:37:18

>> Probably 47 or eight now probably.

1:37:20

>> I bet he could still play, you know.

1:37:22

>> Yeah. I mean, but that's a Yeah, I mean

1:37:23

that's a very specific skill position

1:37:25

and the way he played it he you know.

1:37:27

>> Right. But running back No. Right. But

1:37:30

at cornerback,

1:37:31

>> the elite levels of MMA, especially with

1:37:33

USADA testing and, you know, and now uh

1:37:36

drug-free sport testing when they are

1:37:39

making sure that people aren't on

1:37:41

testosterone and growth hormone, all

1:37:43

these different things like you have

1:37:44

nine years. You have nine years at peak

1:37:46

performance. That's legitimate. Like,

1:37:48

>> how long's Jon Jones been going?

1:37:50

>> Jon Jones is a freak of all freaks cuz

1:37:52

Jon Jones beat Daniel Cormier when he

1:37:54

was on Coke. That was one of the funny

1:37:56

things he said in the uh in the press

1:37:58

conference for the rematch. Daniel was

1:38:00

talking He goes, "I beat you when

1:38:01

I was on Coke." [laughter]

1:38:07

>> I mean, he was getting arrested. He was

1:38:10

partying for when he fought uh

1:38:12

Gustiffson. He beat Gustoson and he

1:38:15

didn't train at all. I talked to his

1:38:18

trainer. He's like, "He didn't even show

1:38:19

up at the gym. He was never

1:38:21

there. He was never training. He could

1:38:22

just show up and beat everybody's ass."

1:38:24

I saw a thing uh on my Instagram feed of

1:38:26

a fighter and I I don't know who it was,

1:38:28

but he was a heavyweight and he goes, "I

1:38:31

had the chance to spar with Jon Jones to

1:38:33

to work with Jon Jones." And he goes, "I

1:38:36

you know, I I knew about it months ahead

1:38:38

of time." He goes, "I got every my

1:38:40

nutrition, everything was absolutely

1:38:42

flawless. I got, you know, my sleep,

1:38:44

everything was on." He goes, "I show up

1:38:46

at the gym that morning." He goes,

1:38:47

>> it's me and five other guys. He goes, he

1:38:50

comes in, I think he went to sleep at 4

1:38:52

in the morning or something. out and he

1:38:54

goes he ran through all six.

1:38:56

>> That's my buddy Brennan Shaw.

1:38:57

>> Is that who it was? Okay. Yeah.

1:38:58

[laughter] It was the funniest story.

1:39:00

And he goes and then I just knew, you

1:39:02

know, like that's that's a level like

1:39:05

but imagine being that elite

1:39:07

>> and and realizing there's another level.

1:39:10

>> Yeah. Oh yeah. Brendan was a top 10

1:39:12

heavyweight and John wasn't even a

1:39:13

heavyweight. John was a light

1:39:15

heavyweight.

1:39:16

>> It was a lower weight class and he just

1:39:18

beat everybody's ass. And he said this

1:39:20

is his warm-up.

1:39:22

>> [laughter]

1:39:23

>> He's just kidding. They just

1:39:25

everybody up. I mean, he has a unique

1:39:27

aptitude for MMA, but also he had two

1:39:30

brothers that were super athletes. Yeah.

1:39:32

Played for the Patriots and Arthur.

1:39:33

>> And so, these guys are super athletes.

1:39:35

And so, they're beating the out of

1:39:37

each other all the time. So, they're

1:39:38

like constantly in competition with

1:39:41

elite athletes from the time he was a

1:39:43

child. Yeah.

1:39:44

>> So, he was just so tuned into

1:39:46

competition and he he so intelligent

1:39:49

like his fight IQ was above and beyond

1:39:52

everyone's and he would study tape

1:39:54

meticulously.

1:39:54

>> Well, that that that spinning kick that

1:39:57

he did to that

1:39:59

where he where he said he

1:40:01

>> and I think he thanked his taekwond do

1:40:03

coach and he said he had been working on

1:40:05

this one specific kick from both sides.

1:40:08

>> Yeah. because of something he saw in the

1:40:10

tape. And he and he got it off and hit

1:40:13

this guy so hard, not even on not even

1:40:17

on his liver side. He hit him on the

1:40:18

other side and you see it shutter

1:40:20

through his entire like organ structure.

1:40:22

>> Yeah. He his heel was deep into his body

1:40:25

cavity like all the way up to his

1:40:27

gnarly like and but he had but

1:40:30

he he he just practice this one specific

1:40:34

>> and he was like and he even said he goes

1:40:36

it is a devastating shot like there's

1:40:38

not a human being who could take that.

1:40:40

>> No, it's like getting hit by a car.

1:40:42

>> Yeah,

1:40:42

>> because when you

1:40:43

>> But getting hit by a car in one spot

1:40:46

the size of a foot, the size of a 13

1:40:48

foot.

1:40:48

>> Oh yeah, here it is. Watch this.

1:40:50

>> He sets him up. Boom.

1:40:52

It's just

1:40:53

>> it's like, yeah, no, it's over. It's

1:40:55

over. It's over.

1:40:56

>> And this is John moving up to

1:40:57

heavyweight because light heavyweight

1:40:59

wasn't a challenge anymore. He decided

1:41:01

to become a two division champion. I

1:41:02

mean, John was a freak.

1:41:04

>> You see it rumbling through.

1:41:05

>> And by the way, that was almost a little

1:41:07

bit glancing cuz he caught him with a

1:41:09

bent leg like he wasn't even fully

1:41:11

extended, which you know

1:41:13

>> was even more devast. But John realized

1:41:16

that as a heavyweight, he didn't have

1:41:17

the power that he had at light

1:41:19

heavyweight. And so he said, "The most

1:41:20

powerful kick is a spinning back kick.

1:41:22

So I'm just going to work on that kick

1:41:23

over and over again because that's the

1:41:25

one tool that I have that can knock a

1:41:27

heavyweight out with one shot."

1:41:28

>> Wow. Okay.

1:41:29

>> That's just

1:41:30

>> It's not just the physicals of He's also

1:41:31

like a genius.

1:41:32

>> He's a genius.

1:41:33

>> Well, he's also like he's the most

1:41:36

meticulous when it comes to game

1:41:37

planning and study. He will not take a

1:41:39

short notice fight. Even a guy that he

1:41:41

could beat any day of the week.

1:41:43

You can wake him up at 3:00 in the

1:41:44

morning. He could that guy up. we

1:41:45

will not take that fight unless he gets

1:41:47

a full training camp to prepare for that

1:41:49

fight.

1:41:51

>> Well, it's just, you know, greatness.

1:41:52

But John's troubled. You know, John's

1:41:54

been arrested a bunch of times and DUIs

1:41:57

and all kinds of crazy and he's,

1:41:59

you know, he's a wild fella. And, you

1:42:02

know, and that pursuit of greatness, I'm

1:42:04

sure, has cost him a lot of in his

1:42:06

personal life. Yeah, [snorts]

1:42:08

>> but you know when he knocks Deepay out

1:42:10

and then did the Trump dance in front of

1:42:11

the whole world like [laughter]

1:42:13

>> for that moment he's on top of the world

1:42:16

you know but then again it's like the

1:42:18

same thing you're as soon as you get

1:42:20

back like what's next

1:42:22

>> you know there's there's another

1:42:23

challenge doesn't matter how many how

1:42:25

many people love you now like it's not

1:42:26

good enough there's someone else looming

1:42:28

you got to beat this guy

1:42:30

>> that seems like a kind of an agonizing

1:42:32

thing to both have the like complete

1:42:34

compulsion to have to get to the next

1:42:36

level and the next level keeps

1:42:39

moving the goalpost. You

1:42:41

>> I'll never forget um I interviewed Matt

1:42:43

Hughes after he lost to BJ Penn. He lost

1:42:45

the welterweight title to BJ Penn and

1:42:48

I'm interviewing him inside the octagon.

1:42:49

He said I'm going to be honest with you

1:42:51

is actually a relief. And he goes, "The

1:42:53

pressure of being the champion and

1:42:55

having someone chasing you for so in the

1:42:58

whole world chasing you." He goes, "I'm

1:43:00

going to be I thought it was an

1:43:01

incredibly

1:43:03

>> brave moment for a guy to say that who

1:43:05

is, you know, just this amazing

1:43:08

human being, this warrior to say, I just

1:43:10

got to be honest. It's a relief. Losing

1:43:12

my title feels like a relief."

1:43:15

>> And [snorts] I was like, "Wow." Like

1:43:16

that that is so so brave to be that

1:43:20

honest in front of the because

1:43:21

everybody's like you just got your ass

1:43:22

kicked. It's like I'm this is a relief.

1:43:25

>> You know, it took a burden off my back.

1:43:27

I'll be back. I'm going to regroup. But

1:43:28

I I needed that. I needed to just

1:43:31

>> step off the top of the hill for

1:43:33

a little while. Jesus Christ.

1:43:34

>> You got to be like a great actually

1:43:36

relief to be able to say something like

1:43:38

that. It's kind of a gift instead of

1:43:39

feeling like you got to hide or pretend

1:43:41

it and go, "Yeah, I'm hiding from my

1:43:43

leaves. It was a lot to carry and

1:43:44

now I you know." Well, the thing about

1:43:46

fighting is everything you try to hide

1:43:47

gets exposed. You're exposed completely

1:43:49

during camp because they're doing these

1:43:52

these round what they take like

1:43:54

>> try if I was here.

1:43:55

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Smoke up. They're

1:43:57

taking like, you know, five guys and

1:44:00

they're rotating them in with you. So,

1:44:03

you're doing five rounds with fresh

1:44:05

guys. So you got one guy who's

1:44:08

warmed up, getting, you know, getting

1:44:10

ready for you and then you're

1:44:11

out of breath and they give you a 30

1:44:13

second break instead of a minute and

1:44:14

then they're throwing in these monsters

1:44:16

and, you know, you're exposed. You're

1:44:18

you're getting beat in training. You're

1:44:20

getting smothered in training. You're

1:44:21

you're exhausted. You know, you're

1:44:23

always reaching your limits cuz the only

1:44:26

way to surpass those limits is to hit

1:44:27

them. You got to hit them and then they

1:44:29

got to figure out where that limit is

1:44:30

and okay, next week we're going to do

1:44:32

one extra round. We're going to do this.

1:44:33

We're going to do that. we got to do

1:44:34

more strength and conditioning. We're

1:44:36

going to push you past wherever your

1:44:37

capacity is right now. So, you're always

1:44:39

breaking. You're always you're always at

1:44:42

the point where you can do no more

1:44:44

because it's the only way to and you can

1:44:45

only maintain that like the condition

1:44:47

that they get in when they step into the

1:44:49

octagon. It's not possible to maintain

1:44:51

that. No, right. You can only get

1:44:53

>> you have to aim at that one moment and

1:44:56

yeah, you have to peak and then if you

1:44:58

up and overtrain, which a lot of

1:44:59

those guys do just because they're such

1:45:01

savages, they never want to leave the

1:45:02

gym. Then they don't peak right and then

1:45:04

they come in and they're exhausted and

1:45:06

they didn't recover properly and then in

1:45:07

between rounds they're too tired and

1:45:09

they can't go out for the next round.

1:45:10

They're too beat up. That happens too.

1:45:13

>> I imagine that level of exhaustion has

1:45:15

to be just insane when you overtrain.

1:45:17

>> Oh god. you're in an actual championship

1:45:19

>> and you realized you're there's no you

1:45:22

can't bounce back and this guy is

1:45:24

blasting your legs with kicks

1:45:26

and hitting you with punches and you

1:45:28

can't get out of the way anymore.

1:45:29

>> Do you think who who was it? Was it

1:45:31

Khabib who said that they they should

1:45:33

just do 25 minute just

1:45:35

>> Oh, a lot of people said that I mean

1:45:37

that's a what

1:45:41

songs are playing. What's going on

1:45:43

technology?

1:45:44

>> The Tesy brothers playing in my pocket.

1:45:46

That's hilarious.

1:45:47

>> Um, sorry about that. Uh,

1:45:48

>> well, Hoist Gracie always said that.

1:45:50

Like that was how he fought in the early

1:45:52

days.

1:45:53

>> They just straight 25 minutes

1:45:54

>> because he was like, "Look," he goes,

1:45:56

"Uh, if we're on the ground," he goes,

1:45:57

"I don't want them to stand back up

1:45:58

again and go in between rounds." And he

1:46:01

goes, "I need time to cook them." That's

1:46:02

what he would say. Yeah. Yeah. It was I

1:46:05

mean, that's what jiu-jitsu is all

1:46:06

about. Jiu-Jitsu is all about staying

1:46:08

one step ahead of you until you become

1:46:10

exhausted and you know and then they

1:46:13

eventually finish you

1:46:14

>> like a like a just

1:46:15

>> throw a constrict.

1:46:16

>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's the real that's

1:46:20

but you know there's this balance of

1:46:21

like making it interesting for this for

1:46:24

people to watch. I I've been a proponent

1:46:27

of no standups. Don't ever stand anybody

1:46:29

up when a guy takes you down. Like you

1:46:31

get an advantage at the beginning of the

1:46:32

round anyway because a striker gets to

1:46:34

be standing up when you didn't earn it.

1:46:36

So you should never get stood up in a

1:46:38

fight. I don't care if the guy's doing

1:46:39

nothing. If he's holding you down and

1:46:40

you can't get up, that's how it should

1:46:42

be. So it's more realistic. But it's the

1:46:44

balance of it being a sport. People want

1:46:46

to watch.

1:46:46

>> Yeah. Making it because people get when

1:46:48

people grab someone to take him to the

1:46:49

ground, nothing happen. People go, you

1:46:51

hear the audience and then the referee

1:46:53

gets a little motivated and he stands

1:46:55

people up and I'm always like, "Ah,

1:46:57

don't stand them up." It's

1:46:58

>> I never thought of it that way that the

1:47:00

beginning of the round starts it to the

1:47:01

advantage of the

1:47:02

>> always always you're you're in a

1:47:04

position you didn't earn you never got

1:47:06

back up. You know I think they should

1:47:08

put them right back to where they were

1:47:09

at the end of the round because it's one

1:47:10

fight. It's not five fights. So if you

1:47:13

start it standing up and at the

1:47:14

beginning of each round that's a new

1:47:15

fight.

1:47:16

>> Yeah. Right.

1:47:17

>> In a way when you're pitching like how

1:47:20

quickly would the UFC go out of business

1:47:21

if

1:47:22

>> real quick 30 seconds they're on the

1:47:24

ground and then it's 24 and a half

1:47:26

minutes. Dude, I'm a terrible

1:47:27

businessman. [laughter] I I would give

1:47:30

the fighters more money. Like they would

1:47:32

I would up the whole business

1:47:33

model. I would uh I would get rid of the

1:47:35

cage. I would have them all fight in a

1:47:37

basketball court. Just put mats on the

1:47:39

ground in the basketball court. I don't

1:47:41

think you should have a cage. I think

1:47:42

the cage gets in the way. It becomes a

1:47:44

way to get back up because you press

1:47:46

your back up against the cage. You can

1:47:48

use it to stand back up again and you're

1:47:50

in the middle of the center of a mat.

1:47:52

It's very difficult to get back up. And

1:47:53

that's realistic,

1:47:55

>> right? you know, you're using a foreign

1:47:56

object to help you perform. Yeah. Right.

1:47:59

Yeah. But,

1:47:59

>> you know, there's the whole macho thing

1:48:01

about people fighting in a cage and it's

1:48:03

like they lock you in there [laughter]

1:48:06

match.

1:48:06

>> Yeah. It's just uh but I mean in terms

1:48:10

of like inspirational performances and

1:48:13

things that you when you see like the

1:48:15

human spirit elevated to the the the

1:48:17

highest possible place when two very

1:48:20

skilled men or women are fighting in a

1:48:23

cage where they prepared for this for

1:48:25

three months and then you know

1:48:27

the referee's like are you ready? Are

1:48:29

you ready? Let's go. And it's like that

1:48:31

moment like is it's not not like

1:48:35

anything else in all sports. I think

1:48:36

that's the moment that like people show

1:48:38

up for cuz they build the intensity.

1:48:40

It's the same with like the old Tyson

1:48:41

fights or whatever like now it's going

1:48:43

to happen and there there you can't help

1:48:46

but have that feeling once it you know

1:48:48

and yeah some fights end up being

1:48:49

disappointing whatever but there that

1:48:51

moment is always there.

1:48:52

>> Well, Tyson was a crazy example of what

1:48:55

we were talking about with greatness

1:48:56

because like you could dedicate your

1:48:58

whole life. You could get up in

1:49:00

the morning at the right time. You could

1:49:01

eat all the right foods. you could do

1:49:03

all the right training, but then you see

1:49:05

that guy like smoke [laughter]

1:49:07

13 seconds.

1:49:08

>> There's nothing I can do. I have no

1:49:11

chance. You know, by looking at he had

1:49:13

the just a look in his eye and you it

1:49:14

was one of the only fighters where you

1:49:15

just see the other guy was scared.

1:49:17

>> Usually they at least hold himself

1:49:19

together where they come off like, "Oh,

1:49:21

I don't know. This guy looks pretty

1:49:22

tough." Guys would fight Tyson and just

1:49:24

would start and they'd feel that moment

1:49:26

too. Oh they're letting this tiger

1:49:28

out and here he comes. And it was like,

1:49:30

>> well, we're old enough to remember when

1:49:31

he was in his prime and those fights

1:49:33

were like executions. You didn't want to

1:49:35

pay for the pay-per-view because they

1:49:36

were so I I swear I mean I mean Jamie

1:49:40

might be able to prove me wrong, but I'm

1:49:41

pretty sure that they cut to Alex

1:49:43

Stewart and they cut to his wife and she

1:49:45

was crying [laughter]

1:49:47

>> and this is when they're coming to the

1:49:48

center of the ring and she But by the

1:49:50

way, for good reason. Like this man

1:49:52

might kill my husband, right?

1:49:54

>> You know what I mean? like

1:49:54

>> he's certainly going to beat the

1:49:56

out of him and she knows it and the

1:49:58

world knows it and

1:49:59

>> guys were ready to quit. Remember that

1:50:00

dude Hurricane or whatever white kid who

1:50:02

fought him when

1:50:04

>> his guy couldn't wait to throw the towel

1:50:05

in. He had it ready like you know he was

1:50:07

ready to go. All right, that's it.

1:50:08

That's good.

1:50:08

>> The bell rings he picks up the towel.

1:50:10

>> Yeah, [laughter] you got save your guy's

1:50:11

life. You know what I mean?

1:50:13

>> McNeel is up now, too. When you

1:50:14

hear him talk, it's rough. It's rough to

1:50:16

hear. Really? Yeah. I saw him get

1:50:18

interviewed recently. That's the dark

1:50:19

side of the sport of of MMA and of

1:50:22

fighting. You know, you you talk like I

1:50:24

had Johnny Knoxville on here yesterday

1:50:26

and Johnny Knoxville was knocked

1:50:27

unconscious 16 times.

1:50:29

>> Jesus Christ.

1:50:30

>> Yeah, that's what I said. And I'm like,

1:50:31

"Holy man." And he seems normal.

1:50:34

Like, he doesn't seem like he's got

1:50:36

brain damage. Now, when you're talking

1:50:37

to guys and you know they have brain

1:50:39

damage, they're slurring their words and

1:50:41

they're still fighting.

1:50:43

>> Their words all mumble together. Like,

1:50:45

you have no idea how much they're

1:50:47

struggling.

1:50:48

>> Like, and they'll they're going to be

1:50:49

struggling in a downhill slope for the

1:50:51

rest of their life. It's not going to

1:50:52

get better. It's going to get way worse

1:50:54

cuz the real brain damage occurs like 10

1:50:56

years after the the injuries. That's

1:50:58

when it really sets up.

1:50:59

>> Really starts like just keeps

1:51:01

>> keep getting worse. I mean, there's some

1:51:02

therapies that they can do now. There's

1:51:05

uh like they they do and Knoxville did

1:51:08

some of it like this magnetic therapy

1:51:10

that they do that reimulates neuron

1:51:12

growth and and oddly enough mushrooms

1:51:16

like psilocybin has been shown to all of

1:51:18

a sudden cure a whole bunch of

1:51:20

>> I know. Well, probably always has, you

1:51:22

know,

1:51:23

>> all of a sudden they acknowledging it.

1:51:25

Yeah.

1:51:25

>> Well, one of the things that's opening

1:51:27

the doors for them to acknowledge it is

1:51:28

soldiers

1:51:29

>> because it's always been kind of like a

1:51:31

leftwing wing thing to be into

1:51:33

psychedelics, but all these soldiers are

1:51:36

coming back with PTSD and drug addiction

1:51:38

and a lot of CTE from, you know, bombs

1:51:41

blowing up and IEDs and concussions and

1:51:44

the only thing that's helping them is

1:51:45

psychedelics. So, it's kind of like in

1:51:47

Texas, uh, former Governor Rick Perry

1:51:50

has started the Ibeane initiative. So,

1:51:52

they're using Ibeane to help all these

1:51:54

different soldiers, which is ironically

1:51:56

the drug that Hunter S. Thompson claimed

1:51:58

Ed Musky was on when he was running for

1:52:00

president. Oh, really? Yeah. [laughter]

1:52:02

Remember when he sank Ed Musky's? It's

1:52:04

if

1:52:04

>> What is I gain? I

1:52:05

>> It's from the Aboga tree. And it is a

1:52:07

psychedelic that is in no way

1:52:09

recreational. It is a very difficult

1:52:12

experience. It's not fun for anybody.

1:52:13

It's like a 24-hour trip. I haven't done

1:52:16

it, but my friends that have done it say

1:52:18

that it's basically like you see your

1:52:20

entire life play out before you. You see

1:52:23

where all your problems come from. You

1:52:26

see where all of your emotional hitches

1:52:28

are. Yeah. And with addictions, it has

1:52:31

an 80% 80 I think it's 84% with one

1:52:35

treatment, they quit whatever they're

1:52:37

hooked on. Not only that, it rewires the

1:52:39

brain. So the physical pathways to

1:52:42

addiction, like someone addict to

1:52:44

opiates, gone, completely severed. So

1:52:46

you literally don't have a physical

1:52:48

addiction to opiates anymore. So with

1:52:50

one treatment, 80 plus% of people

1:52:52

>> That's incredible.

1:52:53

>> With two treatments, it's in the '9s.

1:52:56

>> That's amazing.

1:52:56

>> It's amazing. And it's been illegal, you

1:52:58

know, since like 1970 in this country.

1:53:00

The sweeping psychedelics has like a

1:53:02

clinic or whatever. Well, Rick Perry um

1:53:04

because he's worked with soldiers and

1:53:06

because he's worked with a lot of

1:53:07

veterans that you know and he's a very

1:53:10

compassionate and intelligent man, he

1:53:11

realized like, okay, maybe I'm wrong

1:53:13

about all this psychedelic stuff. And so

1:53:16

he started getting behind this ibeane

1:53:18

initiative. They passed it in Texas and

1:53:20

now they're doing it with soldiers and

1:53:21

they're going to do it with police

1:53:22

officers. And I mean police officers

1:53:24

experience more PTSD. Like I I have a

1:53:26

good friend who was a cop in Austin and

1:53:28

he said and he was also in the military

1:53:30

and he said what I saw in the military

1:53:32

was nothing compared to what I saw as a

1:53:34

police officer. Really? He goes, "I was

1:53:36

seeing death and violence on a on a

1:53:38

daily basis." He goes, "When you're

1:53:40

deployed," he goes, "Yeah, you're you're

1:53:42

going to see some horrible but

1:53:43

you're going to see some horrible

1:53:44

mixed in, you know, over a course of

1:53:46

time where, you know, you go out and

1:53:49

things go live." goes like every day.

1:53:52

>> Every day you're going directly to

1:53:53

somebody who's having the worst moment

1:53:54

of their life.

1:53:55

>> And every day you're pulling someone

1:53:56

over and they might shoot you. Like you

1:53:58

have no idea. You're you're pulling up

1:53:59

to uh tinted windows. You don't know

1:54:02

what the is going on. You're

1:54:03

running the plate. The the license is

1:54:05

expired. You have no idea who's who's in

1:54:07

the car. You don't you don't know

1:54:09

anything. And you've seen all the

1:54:11

videos. We've all seen videos of cops

1:54:12

getting shot down like when they're

1:54:14

pulling over a car. We've all seen it.

1:54:15

And so these guys are living with this

1:54:17

PTSD all the time. And then they

1:54:20

have to live in real life. They they're

1:54:21

supposed to go home and they're supposed

1:54:23

to just be a normal dad and a normal

1:54:25

neighbor. And their head is just

1:54:28

a hurricane of chaos.

1:54:30

>> And I gain has been very beneficial for

1:54:32

those people to just just sort of come

1:54:35

down and and try to find the root of all

1:54:38

this stuff and and get them off pills

1:54:40

and and get them on the straight.

1:54:42

>> That's great.

1:54:42

>> Wow.

1:54:43

>> Oh, it's amazing. I don't know why we

1:54:44

got on the mushrooms. Oh, I because uh

1:54:48

during the Trump during the presidential

1:54:51

elections, he he started spreading these

1:54:53

rumors and it's in the the documentary

1:54:56

uh I what is it that documentary? Is it

1:54:58

Fear and Loathing?

1:55:00

>> Gonzo. Gonzo. That's right. In that

1:55:02

documentary, Gonzo, he talks about it.

1:55:04

So, he's getting interviewed by Dick

1:55:05

Cavitt and he goes [laughter] he goes,

1:55:06

"Yeah." He goes, "There was a a rumor

1:55:08

running around that uh Ed Musky was on

1:55:10

Ibagain and I I knew about it because uh

1:55:13

I started that rumor. [laughter]

1:55:17

But he made I sold it to him.

1:55:19

>> So the guy completely cracked. So like

1:55:21

this guy was like a frontr runner for

1:55:23

the president and he completely

1:55:25

cracked because everybody thought that

1:55:27

he was on drugs cuz H Conter Thompson

1:55:29

was just running around like saying

1:55:30

there's these Brazilian witch doctors

1:55:32

who are coming in to treat this guy.

1:55:34

It's crazy

1:55:35

>> That's [laughter] great.

1:55:37

>> They were like and Hunter would know.

1:55:39

>> Yeah. Yeah. But it's crazy that he chose

1:55:41

Ibgainane, too, because Ibgainane is

1:55:43

like it's not a recreational drug and

1:55:46

it's not a drug of addiction. It's a

1:55:47

literally a drug that stops addiction.

1:55:49

>> But that he was the guy that would have

1:55:50

the full c the whole book's full of

1:55:52

these esoteric drugs you never

1:55:54

heard of that you mentioned really

1:55:55

casual way like four of us stopped to

1:55:57

get ibeine at the one gas station that

1:55:59

sold between [laughter] needles and

1:56:01

nothing.

1:56:02

>> Yeah, sure. No, of course you did.

1:56:04

>> But it it does help people that have uh

1:56:06

brain damage as well. It's it's supposed

1:56:08

to like cause some sort of neuro

1:56:10

>> regeneration. Yeah. Yeah.

1:56:13

>> There's stuff out there that can help

1:56:14

people, but uh a large percentage of

1:56:17

these fighters are silently suffering

1:56:19

and we don't ever hear about it.

1:56:21

>> They say like it's supposed to be that

1:56:22

it's that like the argument is is

1:56:24

because it's you know they're not using

1:56:26

a glove like that football supposed to

1:56:27

be wor I mean wasn't that the sort of

1:56:29

rationale that like you were going to

1:56:31

have less impact in boxing because the

1:56:33

the boxing gloves? No, but it's remember

1:56:35

it's all it's like the subconcussive

1:56:37

blows. It's like the it's not

1:56:39

necessarily the the the one shot

1:56:40

knocking you out as much as the repeated

1:56:43

>> kind of like small like little bit of

1:56:46

brain bleed.

1:56:46

>> I'm sure it's like they're all bad for

1:56:48

you. You know what I mean? Like a

1:56:50

version of

1:56:50

>> knocks to the head are not a thing to be

1:56:52

avoided. Yeah.

1:56:54

>> Well, it's also what you take in

1:56:55

training, too. We're only considering

1:56:56

what happens during a fight. If a guy

1:56:58

has 40 50 MMA fights, that's 40.

1:57:01

>> How many rounds does he have right in

1:57:02

the gym? Yeah. Oh, training camp is

1:57:04

brutal. And depending upon how

1:57:07

intelligent your camp is. Like some

1:57:09

people are really smart and they'll spar

1:57:11

where they're not hitting each other

1:57:13

hard and then maybe one day of the week

1:57:14

they go live, but you do it with

1:57:16

trusted, you know, they're they're very

1:57:18

close to you. These are people that you

1:57:19

care about and love, so they're not

1:57:21

going to try to hurt you on purpose.

1:57:22

>> But sometimes not. Like sometimes you're

1:57:24

in a hostile gym and you know, you got

1:57:26

to spar with people you don't even know.

1:57:28

They're from other countries. You have a

1:57:29

big name. They're trying to take you

1:57:30

out. you know, it's um but the the

1:57:34

amount of damage these guys take. I

1:57:35

mean, I don't know if football's better

1:57:37

or worse. They're all But the thing

1:57:39

about football is the big impacts are

1:57:42

way worse because when you've got a 300B

1:57:46

super athlete that's full tilt

1:57:49

all the way from across

1:57:51

>> boom

1:57:52

running start.

1:57:53

>> Yeah. you're getting hit by a truck

1:57:55

>> and that but that doesn't it's it's not

1:57:59

targeted necessarily at your head. So

1:58:02

it's like what what is better and what

1:58:03

is worse. You know, boxing's bad. You

1:58:05

know, it's like

1:58:06

>> you have less options. MMA is slightly

1:58:08

better because if especially if you're a

1:58:10

grappler, you can take guys down and you

1:58:12

can beat them up on the ground, but it's

1:58:15

ultimately

1:58:17

>> you're paying a price make a

1:58:18

living for sure. But for that glory, for

1:58:21

that one moment when they win and the

1:58:23

16,000 people are on their feet

1:58:25

screaming, there's probably no drug like

1:58:28

that that could ever reproduce it. And

1:58:29

those guys chase that high for their

1:58:31

entire life and then after it's over,

1:58:33

they, you know, they feel oddly

1:58:35

detached,

1:58:36

>> right?

1:58:36

>> And nothing ever rises to that level

1:58:38

again,

1:58:38

>> right? You can make films until you're a

1:58:40

hundred years old. You know, you can

1:58:42

make great films forever. You can do the

1:58:44

thing that you love forever. They have a

1:58:46

little window, a little window of

1:58:48

greatness. really tough thing about

1:58:49

being an athlete like I

1:58:50

>> we were talking to Pete Sampress that

1:58:51

time we met Sam years ago and he was

1:58:54

like we were probably I don't know how

1:58:55

we were 30 he was 32 or something like

1:58:57

that

1:58:58

>> and he was kind of we were like oh my

1:58:59

god you know he had all these

1:59:01

you know wins and grand slams and he he

1:59:03

had a kind of vaguely like yeah he was

1:59:05

like hey you guys look I I'm about to

1:59:06

retire it's I'm finished and we're you

1:59:09

know young guys were you know

1:59:11

>> just getting started you know what I

1:59:13

mean like we're also the thing is you

1:59:15

get better

1:59:16

>> at your job the more you do it Yeah. You

1:59:18

know, so it's that thing with the

1:59:19

athlete. I was having this conversation

1:59:21

the other day. It's like you have all

1:59:23

the physical skills at the beginning,

1:59:25

but you become a better, you know,

1:59:27

better at your sport.

1:59:28

>> Yeah.

1:59:28

>> You know, as your skills are declining

1:59:31

and

1:59:31

>> the body just doesn't want to do it

1:59:33

anymore.

1:59:33

>> And you've got to just comp become Greg

1:59:36

Maddox, you know, and compensate with

1:59:38

all the tricks and location and but like

1:59:40

and that's why that drama of like the

1:59:42

aging athlete is so powerful. still have

1:59:45

it. It's like all do we still have it in

1:59:47

me? Can I still do it? How long, you

1:59:50

know, is what I've learned enough to

1:59:53

compensate for what I've lost? You know,

1:59:55

>> well, there's an interesting story about

1:59:56

Vtor Belelffort. So, Vtor Belelffort was

2:00:00

he won the UFC heavyweight tournament

2:00:01

when he was 19 years old. That was like

2:00:03

the first event I ever worked at, 1997.

2:00:06

I mean, he was like one of the all-time

2:00:08

greats for sure. But as he was getting

2:00:10

into his 30s, he was starting to

2:00:12

decline. Then the UFC allowed fighters

2:00:15

to use testosterone replacement therapy

2:00:18

and boy did he use it. Okay,

2:00:20

[laughter] I don't know what his levels

2:00:22

were, but they were like superhuman

2:00:24

levels. And there was a moment in time

2:00:27

for a few years where they allowed him

2:00:29

to use testosterone therapy and people

2:00:30

refer to it as the TRT Vtor years

2:00:33

because he was terrifying

2:00:35

because he has the mind of a veteran.

2:00:38

Incredible amount of experience. But now

2:00:40

his body is moving like a 25-year-old.

2:00:43

And so he was just annihilating people

2:00:46

just lighting people on fire.

2:00:48

>> So they're not allowed to use

2:00:49

testosterone or

2:00:50

>> No, they can't use anything.

2:00:51

>> Um,

2:00:52

>> no.

2:00:52

>> No. How about peptides? Can they use

2:00:54

peptides? Nope. Nope. Not even peptides.

2:00:55

They're trying to take that and and

2:00:58

reform that. But there's a lot of

2:01:00

ignorance about peptides, what they

2:01:02

actually do. I mean, all it's allowing

2:01:03

you to do soft tissue injuries, heal

2:01:05

quicker, and optimize your body's

2:01:07

ability to produce hormones. So, instead

2:01:08

of adding exogenous hormones, you're

2:01:11

allowing your body to produce them more

2:01:13

naturally, and it'll it just makes you

2:01:15

more healthy. for a very unhealthy job

2:01:18

and where you're, you know, you're

2:01:19

getting hurt all the time. It's it's

2:01:21

going to be better for the sport, better

2:01:23

for the athletes to allow them to all

2:01:24

use it. And it's also there's no

2:01:26

long-term damage that's going to do like

2:01:28

steroids where it shuts down your

2:01:29

endocrine system.

2:01:31

>> So, I hope they reform it. But the idea

2:01:33

was that there's so many

2:01:35

loopholes and so many people cheat. Big

2:01:37

camps used to hire scientists. So they

2:01:40

had a scientist on staff that was not

2:01:44

only

2:01:45

>> he do.

2:01:46

>> Yeah. Exactly. Not only procuring stuff

2:01:48

that that would slip by the test because

2:01:50

there's like you know the Balco stuff

2:01:52

with Barry Bond clear

2:01:54

>> there. There's there's stuff probably

2:01:55

right now that people are using that's

2:01:57

slipping through and there's a lot of

2:01:59

experts that have like one of the things

2:02:01

is animal derived testosterone. So

2:02:04

testosterone one of the they do they use

2:02:06

a carbon isotope test. I think I believe

2:02:08

that's how they use to figure out where

2:02:10

the testosterone came from. So if your

2:02:13

testosterone is like at a very high

2:02:15

level, they test all your other ratios.

2:02:17

They go, "Well, no, it all seems likely.

2:02:19

He's just he's an outlier. He just has

2:02:21

naturally high testosterone." But

2:02:23

testosterone that you get from like

2:02:26

synthetic testosterone is derived from a

2:02:28

wild yam,

2:02:30

>> believe it or not. Yes. Yeah. It's not

2:02:32

It's not animal derived testosterone. So

2:02:34

the composite of it varies when they run

2:02:36

the tests on it and they can determine

2:02:38

>> they can determine that it's a yam based

2:02:39

testosterone

2:02:40

>> it's exogenous not indogenous

2:02:41

>> yam they're fighting it's not heavy

2:02:43

[laughter]

2:02:43

>> but if they could figure out a way to ex

2:02:45

and there's a lot of proof of concept of

2:02:47

this can they figure out a way to

2:02:48

extract testosterone from animal sources

2:02:50

>> bold testosterone

2:02:51

>> something like that well toine that's

2:02:53

they used to inject Hitler with torine

2:02:56

>> you know Hitler was like a

2:02:57

guinea pig for this one doctor who tried

2:02:59

a bunch of on him and one of the

2:03:01

things they did was like inject him with

2:03:03

bull testicles and stuff. They try to

2:03:04

keep him viral.

2:03:06

Yeah. But but there probably are

2:03:09

athletes right now that are using some

2:03:11

that they haven't figured out yet.

2:03:13

So to give them any loopholes at all,

2:03:15

they're like, "No, no, no

2:03:16

loopholes. No IVs, no nothing. I

2:03:20

vitamins and

2:03:21

>> Right." But the problem with IVs is you

2:03:22

can mask testosterone and and and mask

2:03:26

steroids by overflooding the body with

2:03:28

liquids. So if you overflow so then when

2:03:32

you

2:03:32

>> So the ratio is high because like you

2:03:33

add more water it's you would just fill

2:03:36

them up with saline and then when they

2:03:39

go to piss like nope clean look at the

2:03:41

ratio it's

2:03:43

>> cuz it's like so much water is being

2:03:44

processed through the body that it

2:03:46

doesn't have time to show the

2:03:47

testosterone. So there's a way to mask

2:03:48

it especially with like things that you

2:03:50

would add to the IV. Um, so there's no

2:03:53

you can't do it's only food and approved

2:03:56

supplements through like really high

2:03:58

level labs like Thor, like Thorn

2:04:00

supplements where it's third party

2:04:02

tested.

2:04:03

>> So they don't they can't do anything.

2:04:04

But for a while they let him do it and

2:04:07

uh those TRT VOR days are my favorite

2:04:09

fights to watch. [laughter]

2:04:11

>> Did they stop doing fighting because

2:04:13

they thought it was like advantaging

2:04:14

certain people or they happened

2:04:16

that they're like this is up or

2:04:17

was

2:04:17

>> Well, they look look at the difference.

2:04:19

That's TRT Vtor on the left and that's

2:04:20

him on the right when they made him get

2:04:22

off of it.

2:04:23

>> Look at the difference.

2:04:24

>> Jesus.

2:04:24

>> I mean, that's stunning. On the

2:04:26

left though, dude, that was

2:04:28

terrifying. When Luke Rockol fought him,

2:04:31

he told me, he goes, "Dude, when I stood

2:04:33

next to him at the weigh-ins, he

2:04:34

had muscles on his teeth."

2:04:36

>> He goes, "This dude was so

2:04:37

jacked. He was so scared." I was like,

2:04:39

"What the is he on?"

2:04:41

>> He goes, "He knew he was on something."

2:04:43

It's just It's cheating. It really is

2:04:46

because you can jack your levels way

2:04:48

above a normal human beings because

2:04:51

that's what a lot of guys there was a

2:04:52

few fighters that were pulled from cards

2:04:55

because like say if a really high levels

2:04:57

like 1100 they were testing like 18900

2:05:00

they were like people that have never

2:05:02

lived before

2:05:03

>> they were like a science project.

2:05:05

>> They had different species

2:05:06

>> and they were most insane confidence cuz

2:05:10

they were essentially like a raging

2:05:11

gorilla. They were just insanely

2:05:13

confident and just it's just so fired up

2:05:16

like they couldn't wait to smash

2:05:17

somebody because they were just

2:05:19

maniacal. They're a berserker, you know?

2:05:21

So you it's not a person anymore. Now

2:05:24

now you're a science project. It's not,

2:05:26

you know, there are rare outliers who

2:05:28

like Tyson when he was in his prime.

2:05:30

It's rare physical specimens and like

2:05:31

that's part of the game, but that's God,

2:05:34

you know, that's nature. This is not,

2:05:36

you know, Balco Labs. And so they won't

2:05:38

allow him to do anything anymore. And

2:05:40

that's why it's cuz too many and VTOR

2:05:42

was one of the guys that tested like way

2:05:43

over the line and then they just decided

2:05:46

>> like but that's what they're going to

2:05:48

do. If you say

2:05:49

>> if you say it's legal, they're just

2:05:50

going to take as much as good more is

2:05:52

better. And you know

2:05:53

>> Yeah. If you say you did one cc a week,

2:05:55

they're like I heard five. I heard five

2:05:56

cc's. And these guys are just training

2:05:58

five times a day and they never get

2:06:00

tired and they recover like that. So and

2:06:03

they they never have to worry about soft

2:06:04

tissue injuries cuz they they heal like

2:06:06

you're a six-year-old, you know?

2:06:08

And you just your body just like

2:06:09

[laughter]

2:06:10

Wolverine.

2:06:12

>> Oh yeah, man. Well, that's the thing

2:06:13

about peptides, too. The Wolverine

2:06:15

stack. BP157 and TB500. I don't know if

2:06:18

you ever get injured. If you ever get

2:06:19

injured, get immediately on BP157 and

2:06:22

TB500.

2:06:23

>> I didn't hear about TB500, which what's

2:06:25

that one?

2:06:25

>> Thyin Beta 500. It's in conjunction with

2:06:28

BPC 157. It is a phenomenal

2:06:31

stack and just really helps injuries.

2:06:33

>> I didn't know they called it the

2:06:34

Wolverine stack.

2:06:35

>> That's what they call it, the Wolverine

2:06:36

stack. Yeah, cuz you heal

2:06:37

incredibly well. Like you like it

2:06:39

quickly. I was talking to a pro football

2:06:40

player pulled his hamstring. He's like,

2:06:42

"Dude, I I shot that right into my

2:06:43

hamstring for two weeks and I was right

2:06:45

back on the field." I was like, "That's

2:06:47

nuts."

2:06:48

>> I go, "What is a normal rehab?" He goes,

2:06:49

"Three months."

2:06:50

>> He goes, "In two weeks I was back on the

2:06:52

field." I go, "What the f?" He goes, "I

2:06:53

don't know how bad the injury was." He

2:06:55

goes, "But to me it's like I

2:06:57

pulled my hamstring. I'm now for

2:06:59

x amount of days." He goes, "In two

2:07:01

weeks later, I was playing full tilt."

2:07:02

>> Wow.

2:07:03

>> I'm like, that's nuts. and going right

2:07:04

into the area of the injury.

2:07:06

>> Right into it. Some people think you

2:07:08

don't have to do that. They think it's,

2:07:09

you know, systemic. So, you just like

2:07:10

stick it in your fat on your on your

2:07:12

side. But he's like, "No." And most

2:07:14

athletes will tell you the best benefit

2:07:16

is local. Shoot it locally into the area

2:07:19

and it just has

2:07:20

>> like uh cortisone or whatever. Where is

2:07:22

it? What is the

2:07:23

>> cortisone? But cortisone just mass

2:07:25

>> numbs it or whatever. Yeah.

2:07:26

>> Not only that, it it has a tendency if

2:07:29

you do it too many times to weaken

2:07:30

tendons.

2:07:31

>> Yeah.

2:07:32

>> Yeah. And so it could actually

2:07:33

exacerbate the problem because it takes

2:07:35

away the pain.

2:07:35

>> Measure, right?

2:07:36

>> Yeah. It takes away the pain. But

2:07:38

>> I mean, you know, then there's the

2:07:40

enhanced games that are coming out in

2:07:42

Vegas this year where they're like,

2:07:43

>> I know my my friend had that idea a long

2:07:44

time ago. He was like, you should just

2:07:46

do the the the the drug Olympics for

2:07:48

cash. He goes, "Do it in Vegas for

2:07:50

cash." And then then the enhanced games

2:07:52

came. I sent him a tell. I was like,

2:07:54

"They're doing it." [snorts]

2:07:55

>> The game

2:07:56

>> and it's just like

2:07:57

>> I'm down. I love Let's see what a human

2:07:59

being can do.

2:08:00

>> I That's what I think. I mean, look,

2:08:02

when Barry Bonds and, you know, Sammy

2:08:04

Sosa and those guys were cracking out

2:08:05

home runs, it was one of the most

2:08:07

exciting times in baseball.

2:08:10

They didn't do anything. They knew it

2:08:11

wasn't a mystery to anybody. But

2:08:13

Avery's tuning in. The Bash Brothers

2:08:16

baseball on a strike, you know? They

2:08:17

almost destroyed that league and

2:08:19

then people started watching home runs

2:08:22

and everyone and then Bonds is like,

2:08:23

"Well,

2:08:24

>> these two guys are hitting this

2:08:26

many home runs. I'm the best player in

2:08:27

baseball." Which he was. And when he did

2:08:30

it, it was lights out. Yeah. You know, I

2:08:31

mean, he had a year where he only swung

2:08:33

and missed 26 times. 162 games, three

2:08:37

[laughter] and a half bats a game. Only

2:08:39

swung and missed 20. I mean, that's

2:08:41

just,

2:08:42

>> you know, and yeah, Magguire get like

2:08:44

just like move his wrist to get the ball

2:08:47

out of the park and it was like, yeah,

2:08:48

it was fun to watch. And when people say

2:08:49

like steroids don't make you a better

2:08:51

athlete, well, they don't maybe don't

2:08:52

make you a better athlete, [laughter]

2:08:54

>> but if you're a Barry, if

2:08:56

>> you're already an elite athlete, yeah,

2:08:58

it makes Let Jon Jones do all the juice

2:09:01

he wants. He'd be fighting until he's 50

2:09:03

and people up. And you say,

2:09:05

"John, we we've we really come to our

2:09:07

senses. Like, this sport's all about

2:09:08

excitement. Want to give the people what

2:09:09

they want. Give people let people make

2:09:11

informed choices based on their own

2:09:13

discretion."

2:09:14

>> Oh, it's like,

2:09:15

>> "Welcome back. Welcome [laughter] back."

2:09:17

Then all a sudden, John looks like Vtor

2:09:19

in that picture.

2:09:19

>> He'd be undefeated.

2:09:21

>> By the way, John beat Vtor when Vtor was

2:09:22

in his prime. And Vtor caught Jon in a

2:09:25

full arm bar, totally locked his arm

2:09:27

out, hyperextended, popped it, went

2:09:30

backwards. You can see the video of it.

2:09:32

His elbow is going that way. He wouldn't

2:09:34

tap and then beat him in the next round

2:09:36

>> with one arm.

2:09:37

>> Yep. One arm. His arm was

2:09:39

for like a year after that.

2:09:42

>> Yeah.

2:09:43

>> Yeah.

2:09:44

>> Give that man some steroids. Let's

2:09:45

[laughter] see what he can do.

2:09:46

>> Steroids. Let him be the king of the

2:09:48

world.

2:09:49

>> Yeah. The dream team. It's like remember

2:09:51

the first time the the the pros went to

2:09:52

the Olympics, whatever the years, won

2:09:55

every game by 70 points. You know, it

2:09:57

wasn't close, but it was a hell of a lot

2:09:58

of fun.

2:09:59

>> Well, the argument for that made sense

2:10:00

though because like these other people

2:10:01

are being compensated in their

2:10:03

countries.

2:10:03

>> Oh yeah, I had no problem. And then by

2:10:05

the way, now it's got more that last

2:10:06

Olympic championship was that was a

2:10:08

great game against France. That was

2:10:10

fabulous. You know, I mean, yeah, they

2:10:11

they're they're going to wreck some

2:10:13

smaller countries and stuff, but

2:10:15

>> okay, that you're playing pros, they're

2:10:16

playing pros. the whole definition of

2:10:18

amateurism has gotten a little bit like

2:10:20

you know

2:10:20

>> yes it's it's it's people find like a

2:10:23

convenient definition of it according to

2:10:25

what's there like you see in college

2:10:26

sports is changing and stuff like look I

2:10:28

got no problem if you're going to apply

2:10:29

the rules evenly but sometimes when it

2:10:31

feels like it's just an excuse to like

2:10:32

for the NCAA to make a billion dollars

2:10:34

off the TV deal like no no you guys

2:10:36

you're getting you're getting education

2:10:38

>> it's like a little bit like yeah

2:10:39

education you guys making a lot of money

2:10:41

because people want to see Nebraska play

2:10:44

>> it's exploitation

2:10:46

>> yeah and I'm glad they've changed that

2:10:47

with college sports because these guys

2:10:48

are the reason why you're filling up the

2:10:50

seats and they they deserve that money

2:10:52

>> and not every one of them is going to be

2:10:53

in the NFL, right?

2:10:54

>> You know what I mean? Some of them

2:10:55

that's their window to make that

2:10:56

money. You know what I mean? Like it's

2:10:58

hard in the NFL.

2:11:00

>> And the risk of catastrophic injury is

2:11:02

always there

2:11:02

>> is constant constant. Yeah.

2:11:04

>> And and and the the the metrics for it's

2:11:07

like what is it a two two and a half

2:11:08

year career or something

2:11:11

>> depending on your position. But I mean

2:11:13

it's it's such a

2:11:14

>> that seems just fair and obvious. So you

2:11:16

pay a kid to flip a cheeseburger out of

2:11:17

college, but not to like, you know, come

2:11:19

on.

2:11:20

>> Well, that's the great thing about doing

2:11:21

something where you're not relying on

2:11:23

your body like acting.

2:11:25

>> You can you can kind of do it forever,

2:11:27

you know?

2:11:27

>> Yeah. Keep going till you lose it, you

2:11:29

know what I mean? It's really Yeah, it's

2:11:30

great. And it's got its own competitive

2:11:32

aspect and it's a lot, you know, but

2:11:35

>> like, okay, great. If it's if you will

2:11:37

bet on yourself and then the expectation

2:11:38

is, well, I got to do something that's

2:11:41

interesting enough that people want to

2:11:42

watch it. Well, that's the proposition

2:11:43

anyway. How do you guys decide like on

2:11:45

projects that you you choose? Like I'm

2:11:48

sure you have so many options now. Like

2:11:50

what what makes you say this is what I'm

2:11:53

going to spend the next six months

2:11:54

doing?

2:11:54

>> It's really I mean there are a bunch of

2:11:56

different factors like like the director

2:11:58

is being the most important one. But but

2:12:01

if you read a script and and like we've

2:12:03

read so many thousands and thousands of

2:12:05

scripts and written so many scripts and

2:12:08

worked on so many movies that that if if

2:12:11

we read something and it and it it's

2:12:13

that thing we were talking about

2:12:14

earlier, you know, you get that get that

2:12:17

kind of emotional something happens when

2:12:19

you read it. you go, "Okay, well," then

2:12:21

you then you pay attention to it, maybe

2:12:23

read it again, go, "Wait a minute." You

2:12:25

know, if it if it if it moves you in

2:12:26

that in that way, then, you know,

2:12:28

ultimately the big decision is saying

2:12:30

yes because

2:12:31

>> because you're going to spend

2:12:33

>> Yeah. the last point over which you have

2:12:35

>> total control, right?

2:12:36

>> You know, and then you're in.

2:12:37

>> Then you're in and and you're and you're

2:12:40

in whether it's good or bad. I mean,

2:12:42

I've been on those movies where I knew a

2:12:44

month into a six-month shoot that like

2:12:47

this is not going to work. [laughter]

2:12:49

And that that is that is the

2:12:52

>> it's just the worst.

2:12:53

>> It is I I I came to think of that. It

2:12:56

happened to me.

2:12:56

>> They're going to shoot us all when it

2:12:57

comes out.

2:12:58

>> Yeah. Okay. [laughter]

2:12:58

>> It's like it's all bad.

2:12:59

>> Go to work. You know,

2:13:00

>> it's like it's it's going to be it's

2:13:02

going to be 80 16 hour days in a row and

2:13:05

then uh a a post-production period

2:13:08

that's going to be pretty fraught and

2:13:09

then it's going to come out and we're

2:13:10

going to get crushed

2:13:11

>> and then you're going to have to sell

2:13:12

it. You're going to have to walk the

2:13:14

plank and sit down with access.

2:13:17

>> You know what I mean? like so saw the

2:13:20

movie. How important is that stuff still

2:13:23

today? Like the press stuff, is that

2:13:25

still important?

2:13:26

>> It is. I don't know to what degree each

2:13:29

specific thing is. I mean,

2:13:30

>> it's kind of ironic because we were

2:13:31

talking about coming on this show today

2:13:33

and we were saying I was like doing this

2:13:35

show more meaningful in than the rest of

2:13:37

the we do in aggregate to promote

2:13:39

this movie. Like we spent this whole

2:13:41

week in New York doing, you know, I

2:13:43

don't know how many interviews, you

2:13:44

know, the the quick ones with all the

2:13:45

outlet,

2:13:45

>> five minute interviews, all the the the

2:13:48

evening shows, the day shows,

2:13:50

>> all that stuff and and this just given

2:13:53

how many people listen to the show will

2:13:56

be more meaningful. We think I mean

2:13:58

that's our we were speculating but

2:14:00

>> his historically right if you look at it

2:14:02

that's it because they've changed to

2:14:03

like all of it feels kind of produced

2:14:06

and forced and advertised and and people

2:14:08

have become resistant to anything that

2:14:10

feels kind of like a gimmick and a

2:14:11

shtick and you go on and you do your

2:14:12

song and dance and they say the thing it

2:14:13

looks great and you and nobody cares

2:14:15

like they're looking to go either

2:14:17

because somebody they know says it's

2:14:18

interesting or somebody that they is

2:14:20

trusted and a trusted person is in like

2:14:22

your like you say your feed right and

2:14:24

it's your friend or your your cousin or

2:14:26

or they affix that to somebody which has

2:14:29

become a more rare thing like who's a

2:14:32

like a legitimate neutral arbiter,

2:14:34

right? Who I can't predict what they're

2:14:36

going to say before I go there. There

2:14:38

are few of those fewer and fewer of

2:14:40

those people in the world even those are

2:14:42

proliferation of more and more voices

2:14:45

and I it's kind of paradoxical like the

2:14:48

form of entertainment is getting shorter

2:14:50

and shorter and shorter. So you're like

2:14:51

a 7-second, you know, we had an

2:14:53

advertising company. We we do most of

2:14:55

the spots that we release like 15-second

2:14:56

spots, six-second spots for social, the

2:14:59

ones most people see. And then there's

2:15:01

this one form, which is like long form

2:15:04

discussions that are whatever two hours

2:15:07

long. And the amazing to me is, you

2:15:10

know, in a world where it seems like you

2:15:11

can't get people to pay attention for

2:15:12

more than, you know, a few seconds,

2:15:15

there's a kind of a hunger for that. So

2:15:16

there's like this form and that's why

2:15:18

you see these are getting more popular.

2:15:19

obviously have this massive audience and

2:15:22

it's and it it's kind of flying in the

2:15:23

face of the whole other trend and I

2:15:26

think and I don't know that it probably

2:15:29

has something to do with like who do I

2:15:31

think is authentic and am I actually

2:15:33

going to willing to extend my two hours

2:15:36

of my time to sit there and listen

2:15:38

through and and that an argument that

2:15:40

people probably do appreciate and

2:15:42

understand conversations that have

2:15:44

context and nuance and where there's

2:15:46

like a back and forth. They're just much

2:15:48

more selective about who they're willing

2:15:50

to kind of

2:15:52

give that sort of voice to in their

2:15:55

life.

2:15:55

>> It's also the voice of the public, too,

2:15:57

because when people start talking about

2:15:58

things online and things go viral online

2:16:01

and people just start like saying how

2:16:03

great they love the film or how great

2:16:05

this album is or something like that, it

2:16:07

just takes off organically now.

2:16:09

>> Yeah. And that has more more weight than

2:16:10

anything. If you feel like somebody else

2:16:12

who obviously has no dog in the fight is

2:16:15

going, "Hey, this is great. You should

2:16:16

see I'm the same thing. If I hear

2:16:18

somebody tell me like, you know, who I

2:16:20

respect, hey, you got to see that thing,

2:16:21

that means more to me than anything,

2:16:23

right? Because I believe that. And so if

2:16:25

the closer you can get to that, which is

2:16:27

why that I think the act of a like

2:16:29

telling the same, you know, like telling

2:16:32

the same like story about you should go

2:16:34

see the movie to a bunch of people with

2:16:36

a certain like limited reach, it's just

2:16:38

it's just not that efficient. But you

2:16:40

have to because it's like well we sat

2:16:42

down with our own Trisha Zanaka and

2:16:44

talked about the mo you know and you

2:16:46

kind of do that ostensibly because it

2:16:48

means a little bit more in that in that

2:16:50

market. But I think ultimately it's it's

2:16:53

like more and more people see realize

2:16:55

they're being sold to see through the

2:16:57

act and the sort of of

2:16:59

it. They recognize that you know you go

2:17:01

out and sell every movie. You know what

2:17:03

I mean? The good and the bad. And then

2:17:04

we got to decide well which one and and

2:17:06

who can you count on? Well, it's mostly

2:17:07

going to be that like the word of mouth,

2:17:09

your friend, and and now you can see

2:17:11

that person in your media experience,

2:17:13

you know.

2:17:13

>> Yeah. And I think it's also we know that

2:17:17

when you're sitting down with extra or

2:17:19

these like that's just their job to sit

2:17:21

down with people, they're not doing it

2:17:22

because they want to, right?

2:17:23

>> You know, it's like they got told go

2:17:26

talk to that person.

2:17:27

>> And we got told go talk to them. So, we

2:17:30

go do the ritual and they say the thing

2:17:32

they say and we say the thing we say

2:17:34

>> and everyone goes home and says we did

2:17:36

our job.

2:17:36

>> That's the benefit of an independent

2:17:38

podcast is that like like with me I

2:17:40

don't talk to anybody I don't want to

2:17:42

talk to. It's just like I

2:17:42

[clears throat] I I literally do the

2:17:44

whole thing on my phone. I go oh yeah

2:17:46

that sounds cool and that's it.

2:17:48

>> But like that I think means a lot at

2:17:50

least this person is making this choice

2:17:51

and I've listened to it a bunch and I I

2:17:53

actually find myself agreeing with it a

2:17:55

lot of the time. I'm so hard right I'll

2:17:56

give it a shot that you know it's

2:17:58

exactly

2:17:58

>> I think also like this format like at

2:18:01

least I know why it why I started

2:18:03

listening to podcasts was because uh in

2:18:06

in the world like the the divisive kind

2:18:09

the way everybody was talking these

2:18:10

sound bites and all this and and

2:18:12

and it was just like the ability to just

2:18:15

listen to human beings talk often who

2:18:19

who had different points of view but

2:18:21

like had a civil conversation

2:18:23

>> Yeah. was like was such a welcome thing,

2:18:26

you know, given the given the kind of

2:18:28

the hysterical

2:18:29

kind of, you know, uh, frenzy of of of

2:18:33

of divisiveness that's kind of it just

2:18:35

feels it's just like,

2:18:37

>> you know, the it's like I if I open my

2:18:40

phone and look at the news, I like

2:18:42

>> It's like, put it down. It's just it's

2:18:44

it's like uh I feel my cortisol level go

2:18:46

up. and to actually hear people be

2:18:49

listen to people I know I don't agree

2:18:50

with but listen to them and just and

2:18:52

just think about it. You know what I

2:18:55

mean? I mean approach life with a little

2:18:56

bit of humility.

2:18:58

>> Not hold on to what you believe

2:18:59

obviously but but but keep listening.

2:19:03

>> It's also there's not a lot of

2:19:04

opportunities in the real world to have

2:19:06

long conversations with people. So

2:19:08

people are kind of starving for that.

2:19:10

>> I know. Isn't it funny that this has

2:19:11

become the shared cultural like we

2:19:13

listen to that podcast and then actually

2:19:16

experience that because and also people

2:19:18

why don't people trust the media? Well,

2:19:19

because the media doesn't do that

2:19:21

because they compress it and because the

2:19:22

truth it's money because actually doing

2:19:25

that is not with money. it's just

2:19:26

ratings and the perceived idea that like

2:19:29

well if you simplify it or you you

2:19:31

position it one way or that you engender

2:19:32

outrage um that's simple or just you

2:19:36

know pure one-sided ideas that are that

2:19:38

are simple um you know but the news used

2:19:41

to be the idea was look here's the FCC

2:19:44

we're going to let these networks

2:19:45

broadcast their shows and make money on

2:19:47

it but here's the deal you got to give

2:19:48

an hour of that and lose money on that

2:19:51

hour to tell the news and try to tell it

2:19:52

objectively then it started to be no you

2:19:54

got to make money for for that hour too.

2:19:56

And if you're going to make money,

2:19:57

that's a different incentive than tell

2:20:00

the truth or reports or any of those

2:20:02

things. And people try to hybridize

2:20:04

them, but at the end of the day, you're

2:20:06

a more successful reporter if more

2:20:08

people watch you because advertisers pay

2:20:10

more and then they're doing the same

2:20:12

thing, looking at their data, you know,

2:20:14

grand what are people watching, what

2:20:15

kinds of stories and and I I think this

2:20:18

is simple answers because you're just

2:20:19

you're making it into a profit game.

2:20:21

those incentives are not aligned with

2:20:23

>> just trying to get down to like even

2:20:25

reporting basic facts.

2:20:28

>> Yeah. It's a weird time. It's like we

2:20:30

have more access to information than

2:20:31

ever before, but so much of it is just

2:20:33

horseshit.

2:20:33

>> Yeah.

2:20:34

>> You know, it's it's hard to stay

2:20:37

balanced. Yeah.

2:20:38

>> And I think that's why it's good to like

2:20:40

listen to people just talk

2:20:42

>> and and then you recognize like the

2:20:43

flaws in their thinking. You feel ego.

2:20:46

You feel deception. You know,

2:20:50

>> it's true. people will reveal

2:20:51

themselves. Like you actually we

2:20:52

actually don't need that many

2:20:53

editorialists to be constantly telling

2:20:55

us what to think and how to think.

2:20:57

People actually have pretty good

2:20:58

instincts. You know, if someone's

2:21:00

bullshitting you eventually, they'll

2:21:01

kind of hang themselves. Like you said,

2:21:03

you'll get that vibe. Uh after a while,

2:21:05

he kind of started repeating his

2:21:06

sticktick and I kind of he didn't really

2:21:08

talk about what I was wondering about.

2:21:10

And you form your own that's like

2:21:12

forming your own judgment.

2:21:13

>> Pete Buddhajed actually talked about

2:21:15

that being dangerous on podcasts. He's

2:21:17

like, "Because you you go on there and

2:21:20

you have your points, but you'll get

2:21:22

revealed over the course of a few

2:21:24

hours." Like, you can only stick to

2:21:26

these lines.

2:21:27

>> Yeah. You get talking points and

2:21:28

for and then

2:21:30

>> and then what happens is people just

2:21:31

like there was an art to like look at

2:21:33

how great the communicator they stick to

2:21:34

the message and they do their points. We

2:21:37

Okay, 30 seconds, 60 seconds. But any

2:21:39

longer than that, it just starts to look

2:21:41

like a robot on, you know, and

2:21:43

like I said, what we need to follow

2:21:45

through with, you know, I saw you do the

2:21:47

same hand gesture and the same bit with

2:21:49

that, but you know,

2:21:50

>> sometimes you find out they're full of

2:21:51

just by having them talk about

2:21:52

other things.

2:21:54

>> You know, like tell me, do you like

2:21:55

cooking? You know, like just like and

2:21:57

then you just see like some concocted

2:22:00

>> they're thinking what makes me look good

2:22:01

if about cooking that I should

2:22:04

>> Well, I tell you what, because Americans

2:22:06

[laughter]

2:22:07

exactly it like

2:22:08

>> do I cook or do I not? What what would I

2:22:10

>> Does that make me feminine or does it

2:22:12

make me open to cultural? You It's just

2:22:14

like,

2:22:14

>> yeah,

2:22:15

>> what do you like to cook, man? I don't

2:22:17

cook. You know,

2:22:18

>> well, that's the other thing about

2:22:19

people that are online too much is

2:22:21

they're so concerned with other people's

2:22:23

opinions that they don't have enough

2:22:25

time to formulate their own.

2:22:28

>> They're just so concerned with how

2:22:29

people are going to perceive everything

2:22:31

you say that you're like handcuffed.

2:22:32

You're like terrified to misspeak.

2:22:35

>> Right. Right.

2:22:36

>> I think that in general is a real

2:22:38

danger. I mean, you we were

2:22:39

talking the other day, we were saying

2:22:40

about like one of the ver benefits of

2:22:43

getting older and and doing this for a

2:22:45

long time is

2:22:46

>> you realize like nobody really gives a

2:22:48

as much about you as you thought.

2:22:50

You know, you just kind of nobody gives

2:22:51

a Nobody remembers. You

2:22:52

>> spend your 20s and 30s thinking like

2:22:54

this is really important and then you

2:22:56

realize no one come [laughter]

2:22:57

off and what's going to be no one

2:22:58

actually cares. It's not that big a

2:23:00

deal. Nobody

2:23:01

>> most people are mostly worrying about

2:23:02

themselves in their life and they Yeah.

2:23:04

There's this illusion that they pay a

2:23:06

passing moment of attention or it's in

2:23:08

some story or it's like you're

2:23:10

staring at it because it's about you,

2:23:12

right? You know, you know that you said

2:23:13

that about me. Nobody else really

2:23:15

>> Nobody cares.

2:23:16

>> And if they do, they're usually

2:23:18

up. Like something's wrong. Why

2:23:20

concentrate on this other person's life?

2:23:22

>> You're probably trying to ignore your

2:23:23

own right?

2:23:24

>> Yeah.

2:23:25

>> Well, listen, man. Your movie is

2:23:27

awesome. Uh I've loved so much of your

2:23:29

your films over the years, so it's been

2:23:31

really cool to be able to have you guys

2:23:32

in here and talk about this. It's been

2:23:34

great.

2:23:34

>> Thanks for having us.

2:23:35

>> Two very normal, nice movie stars.

2:23:38

[laughter]

2:23:39

>> You guys are cool as

2:23:40

>> Give us a couple more hours.

2:23:41

>> Yeah, exactly.

2:23:43

>> I enjoyed it. And I really enjoyed the

2:23:44

rip. It's great. And uh

2:23:46

everybody go see it. It's great. I loved

2:23:48

it. Thank you. Thanks for being here.

2:23:50

All right. Pleasure.

2:23:51

>> Bye, everybody.

2:23:59

[music]

Joe Rogan Experience #2440 - Matt Damon & Ben Affleck

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