Joe Rogan Experience #1315 - Bob Lazar & Jeremy Corbell — Full Transcript

0:40

to dinner i've seen pretty much every

0:43

interview you've ever given i've

0:44

followed the story incredibly closely

0:46

but for people who don't know the story

0:48

let's give them the bullet points you

0:53

used to work

0:54

at area 51 in area 51 you got you you

0:58

went like

0:59

well you know we want to be accurate

1:01

okay area s4 s4 okay it's about 15 miles

1:04

south of area 51. okay

1:07

um

1:08

you

1:08

worked

1:10

in

1:11

what would you how would you describe it

1:13

i i guess

1:14

within the area 51 compound you can call

1:17

that a subset of area 51.

1:19

and you got that job before that you

1:22

were working

1:23

before that i had worked at los alamos

1:25

right national labs in new mexico and

1:28

you were involved in what kind of work

1:30

nuclear weapon development physics i

1:32

mean that's they do everything there so

1:35

how do they approach you

1:37

to say hey bob once you come on out to

1:39

the nevada desert

1:42

well the way this went down was

1:45

um

1:47

at that time it was 1982

1:49

i

1:51

had put

1:52

a jet engine in my my honda

1:56

and los alamos put it on the front page

1:59

of the paper

2:01

said you know uh

2:02

los alamos man physicist at the lab you

2:05

know

2:06

built this 200 mile an hour you know on

2:08

the jet car that i drove to work every

2:11

day

2:11

so uh so i was known in los alamos the

2:15

guy with the weird car and you know you

2:16

could hear it from you know a mile away

2:19

anyway

2:21

the day that came out on the front page

2:23

of the paper

2:24

was the day edward teller the father of

2:26

the hydrogen bomb was giving

2:28

a lecture

2:30

down there at the lab

2:32

and we didn't have much going on that

2:34

day in our group and i asked if i could

2:36

go down there

2:38

and

2:39

i went down there early and ed teller

2:42

was outside

2:44

leaning on a brick wall there and

2:46

reading the front page of the paper now

2:48

there's a guy out of history so i

2:50

introduced myself hey i'm the guy you're

2:52

reading about there and we talked for a

2:53

little while and it was cool

2:55

uh you know fast forward to years later

2:57

i had moved out to las vegas

2:59

and had you know left los alamos and

3:02

you know went on to other things and i

3:04

wanted to get back into the scientific

3:05

community yeah i left start other

3:08

businesses and

3:09

and that sort of thing so i sent resumes

3:12

out and one of them went out to ed

3:13

teller and referenced our meeting

3:17

you know back back in that the day

3:19

and uh anyway he remembered me

3:22

and

3:23

gave me a reference somebody to contact

3:25

at egng

3:26

and that's pretty much how it started

3:29

so

3:30

you get a phone call or a letter like

3:33

what do you get

3:36

well i got a

3:38

what did i get i got a letter initially

3:41

and um went down for an interview

3:43

probably a couple times and it was down

3:45

at eg g special projects which was um

3:48

at mccarran airport at that time out in

3:50

las vegas and did they give you any sort

3:53

of job description of what you were

3:54

applying for um they said it was for ed

3:59

i can't remember exactly what they did

4:00

this was a long time ago but i i think

4:03

it was um

4:04

advanced propulsion or something like

4:06

that something relatively generic and

4:08

they said it's in a remote area

4:11

um

4:12

you know it's gonna be some days on some

4:14

days off and um

4:16

you know it was kind of a

4:18

it was kind of uh not exactly a

4:21

full-time job but you might have to be

4:22

out there for two weeks at a time and

4:25

take two weeks off so it was kind of uh

4:27

the work schedule would be kind of

4:29

broken up

4:30

and did this seem attractive to you or

4:32

did it seem weird

4:34

no it really wasn't weird because people

4:36

that work at the test site anybody

4:37

that's familiar with the area up there

4:39

um you know working at the nuclear test

4:41

site uh or at the tonopod test range

4:44

north of there uh that's typically how

4:47

things go so you had known about it from

4:49

the scientific community because the

4:51

area 51 at that time was no they didn't

4:53

say anything about area 51. okay so they

4:55

just said it was in a you know in a

4:57

remote location and you just know it was

5:00

up at the test site right so but there

5:02

was no mention of area 51 at that time

5:04

so they've done

5:05

hundreds of nuclear tests in nevada and

5:08

nevada that whole area was there's been

5:10

there's giant chunks of nevada the

5:12

people yeah there's a big piece of

5:14

nevada and it's split up into different

5:16

areas there's a nuclear test site

5:17

there's area 51 there's the tonopod test

5:20

range north of that there's little

5:22

sub-areas there's areas where they test

5:23

chemical weapons and things like that so

5:25

it's all broken up as a you know

5:27

gigantic test area so take me back to

5:29

first day on the job

5:31

you accept a job

5:33

they take you out there

5:34

yeah

5:36

it's um

5:39

the first day really i didn't really get

5:41

to see a whole lot the first day was

5:42

essentially just paperwork that's when i

5:44

flew into area 51 proper

5:47

and i left mccarran airport

5:50

and flew what they call the janet

5:51

flights

5:52

just um

5:54

you know a passenger plane from las

5:56

vegas to area 51

5:59

and it was really just going through

6:02

a mountain of paperwork that day

6:05

from security clearances to um

6:08

god there was

6:09

it was like two or three hours of just

6:11

solid paperwork and that was that was

6:13

really an uneventful first day

6:16

when did things get weird

6:21

when did you realize that at what point

6:23

in time did you say hey

6:25

this is not

6:27

normal work like this doesn't even seem

6:30

like it's from this planet

6:32

that i can't tell you what day that

6:34

occurred on because so much time has

6:36

gone by

6:37

the days have kind of fused into one and

6:39

i can't separate the days was it a slow

6:42

burn or was there a moment of

6:44

recognition

6:45

well the

6:47

the first inkling i had was when i i

6:50

came in normal there's this facility

6:52

that is at s4

6:54

it's in the side of a mountain

6:56

and

6:57

normally we had pulled in with the bus

7:00

and gone around the front through a

7:02

normal double door

7:04

this time that i went in there were

7:06

hangar doors open

7:08

i went into the hangar door and in the

7:10

hangar door was the disc the flying

7:12

saucer that i worked on

7:14

i saw it sitting there and we walked by

7:16

it had a little american flag stuck on

7:18

the side and i thought oh my god this

7:21

finally explains all the flying saucer

7:23

stories this is just an advanced fighter

7:25

and it this is [ __ ] hilarious right

7:28

so i went by i slid my hand alongside it

7:31

i got reprimanded immediately for

7:32

touching the thing

7:34

and uh there was a guy an armed guard

7:35

that followed us in and just said keep

7:37

your eyes at forward and your hands at

7:39

your side and just walk in the door so

7:41

that was the first time i had seen

7:44

anything that was weird

7:47

it was some time later that i was

7:49

introduced to my um

7:51

my lab partner barry

7:53

and we had some of the subcomponents of

7:55

the craft

7:57

in the lab

7:58

and barry was very anxious to get a new

8:01

lab partner so he was very talkative and

8:03

couldn't wait to show me different

8:04

things and it was in the demonstration

8:07

of the reactor working where it caught

8:10

my attention to where

8:13

this is technology that doesn't even

8:15

exist

8:17

so i mean that was the first time i knew

8:19

that this is

8:20

really something different what was it

8:23

what was it what was a

8:25

what was it about this reactor that made

8:28

you think that it didn't exist

8:32

technologically well it was the i

8:34

actually have to back up because there

8:35

were some briefings that i read it

8:37

before that

8:38

that

8:40

you know certainly gave me the

8:42

impression that this was going to be a

8:44

weird job but this was the first

8:45

hands-on thing

8:47

this was a small reactor about the size

8:49

of a hemisphere about the size of a

8:51

basketball

8:52

on a metal plate and when it was running

8:55

it produced a gravitational field a

8:57

gravitational field of its own now this

8:59

is something that we can't do we can't

9:01

produce any gravity the only way we get

9:04

gravity is from large quantities of mass

9:07

but there's no machine we can have that

9:09

turns on that makes gravity like

9:11

you know you can turn on an

9:12

electromagnet and it makes a magnetic

9:14

field we can't make a gravitational

9:16

field anyway this device was producing

9:19

that and barry said

9:21

almost like he was bragging go ahead try

9:23

and try and touch the sphere and i i

9:26

couldn't it would it pushed my hands

9:27

away just like two like poles of a

9:29

magnet so that was uh so like when you

9:31

take two magnets and try to press them

9:32

together yeah you have this each other

9:34

yeah kind of cushion feeling but you

9:36

can't you can't get them together the

9:38

closer you put them the more they push

9:39

but then you felt that physically with

9:41

my hand yeah now there's nothing there's

9:43

nothing that does that

9:44

and that immediately caught my attention

9:46

going wow this is something else what

9:49

was your thought like when you felt that

9:51

and you knew that there was nothing that

9:53

you were aware of that could produce

9:55

that connected me to the briefings that

9:57

i read

9:59

on the the first day at s4 was that uh

10:02

you know everything that i had read was

10:04

apparently accurate

10:06

what were you reading

10:08

i read it was kind of an overview

10:11

this project

10:12

was to back engineer

10:15

the alien craft and

10:17

specifically it was to try and back

10:20

engineer and see if we can duplicate the

10:22

technology with available materials

10:26

now to do this they split the project

10:28

into

10:29

you know many different pieces for

10:31

several reasons they do this on all

10:33

classified projects so uh nobody has the

10:36

complete story but uh they

10:38

compartmentalize everything now we had

10:40

the power and propulsion system so what

10:43

the briefings they gave me were like a

10:44

one or two page overview of some of the

10:46

other projects that were going on you

10:49

know on the craft the only reason they

10:51

do that is just in case what you're

10:53

working on is connected intimately in

10:55

some way that we don't know of to one of

10:57

the other projects you have to know

10:58

there excuse me their existence so

11:02

um

11:03

you know i but

11:05

again everything from metallurgy to

11:08

um you know weapon potential the craft

11:11

and these were all you know essentially

11:13

very short briefings but mine was just

11:16

power and propulsion and

11:19

it made it very clear that what i read

11:21

was accurate

11:23

so when you're reading that before you

11:25

actually saw the reactor

11:28

what were your thoughts on what they

11:29

were describing

11:32

if you knew that something like that

11:33

didn't exist

11:35

and they're describing it in the

11:36

briefings

11:38

what did you think you were going to see

11:40

i really i i didn't know at the time i

11:42

mean i was reading i thought is this

11:44

just some kind of test

11:45

um

11:46

see if you're crazy well not to see if

11:48

i'm crazy to

11:50

you know a lot of times they'll take in

11:51

real high security

11:53

uh

11:54

jobs i mean they'll intentionally insert

11:57

nonsense into them um whether it's to

12:00

confuse the fact or if for someone was

12:02

to leak it out

12:03

they would carry that information along

12:05

and know where it came from so

12:07

i

12:08

read through the documents but you know

12:10

i didn't know if this was you know part

12:12

of some kind of test or um

12:16

you know or what or was it potentially

12:18

realistic i mean i really didn't

12:20

consider it being

12:22

all that possible as far as being uh

12:25

the actual thing that i was going to

12:27

work on at the time how did they turn it

12:29

on

12:30

the the reactor yeah the reactor can be

12:32

turned on or turned off in a lot of

12:34

different ways um the way barry showed

12:37

me at the hemisphere is removed

12:40

there's a small tower in the middle when

12:42

you put the hemisphere on the reactor

12:44

activates

12:45

the reactor shuts down it's it's load

12:48

sensing so if there's if there's no load

12:51

on the reactor at all it shuts down when

12:53

there's a load present on it it starts

12:56

up again load meaning

12:58

you can consider it an electrical load

13:01

so

13:02

although it doesn't necessarily operate

13:06

electrically there's no wiring that

13:08

connects any of the sub components

13:10

together whatsoever they just have to be

13:11

in the immediate vicinity it's uh

13:14

it is but the stuff is borderline magic

13:18

and that's essentially where we left it

13:20

you know when i left the project

13:23

so there was no progress made

13:25

there was some progress i mean we did

13:27

identify at least we think some

13:29

processes and

13:30

and had a rough idea we think of what

13:33

was going on but

13:35

i think this is a problem

13:37

that they've had for a long time

13:39

and um

13:40

you know i was replacing somebody

13:43

that barry worked with prior to me and i

13:45

think there was some horrific accident

13:47

that i didn't have a whole lot of

13:49

information on but you know barry

13:51

alluded to that

13:53

horrific accident like where someone

13:54

died or yeah where somebody died because

13:57

they were trying to tamper with things

13:59

or figure out how something worked yeah

14:01

the reactor in particular

14:03

but yeti let you touch it

14:05

yeah i think what they were trying to do

14:07

was cut into one now they had they had

14:10

more than one there and they that was

14:12

supposedly there was an unannounced

14:14

nuclear test

14:15

and

14:16

that's what it was at the time remember

14:18

they would still do an underground

14:19

nuclear test at the test site um but

14:22

from what i understand according to

14:24

barry there was an attempt made now this

14:26

must have been a pretty desperate intent

14:28

because it's not a very scientific

14:30

process to cut you know analyze

14:32

something that way but it looked like

14:34

they used a plasma cutter or something

14:36

like that to cut into an

14:38

operating reactor how many of these

14:40

things did they have they had nine nine

14:42

craft altogether i only got hands on

14:45

with one of them so i can't really

14:47

say what the how the others operated did

14:50

you see the other ones yeah at one time

14:52

and only one time the bay doors that

14:54

between the hangers were all open and i

14:57

could see all the way through

14:59

and

15:00

were they all exactly the same no they

15:02

were all different different shapes yeah

15:05

but they were all from somewhere else

15:07

yeah absolutely

15:09

now

15:10

did anyone make any attempt to explain

15:13

or to

15:14

to tell you where they came from no no

15:17

no one is the least bit interested in

15:19

letting everybody know

15:21

all the facts they want to give you the

15:23

minimum information that's necessary to

15:25

complete your task so

15:27

you're not getting the story of where

15:28

they came from you're not getting the

15:30

story of what how much progress other

15:32

people are making you just focus on

15:35

the small component but they gave you

15:37

some indication that they've been

15:38

working on these for a while yeah

15:41

when do you think they

15:43

acquired these

15:45

i really couldn't say

15:47

i think they've been around for a while

15:50

so

15:51

they bring you into this room you

15:54

see this reactor working you you realize

15:57

this is nothing that as far as like the

15:59

scientific community at current time

16:02

has the ability to create

16:05

we still don't

16:06

what is your life like from that moment

16:08

on is that where everything changes

16:09

because you do you i mean i would

16:11

imagine the moment you actually make

16:13

contact with something that's

16:15

extraterrestrial whether it's an object

16:17

or a being something where you can

16:19

actually absolutely be certain it's not

16:22

from here

16:23

your whole paradigm the whole world you

16:26

live in is now a different place well

16:28

this is the only time it became exciting

16:31

you know the rest of the time the it was

16:33

really

16:34

an ominous feeling being at work but it

16:37

at that time

16:38

it was exciting i mean this was now i

16:41

knew we were on the absolute be actually

16:43

beyond the cutting edge of science and i

16:45

was

16:46

i was so absolutely excited to be there

16:49

every single time i was um

16:52

you know it would this was a fantastic

16:54

opportunity and

16:58

however

17:00

in short order it began to concern me we

17:04

really have no idea what we're talking

17:06

about

17:07

and

17:09

the excitement kind of turned to dread

17:12

at some point

17:14

because the amount of power we're

17:16

dealing with is astronomical i mean to

17:19

affect gravity to produce the effects

17:22

like this equipment does takes huge

17:25

amounts of power and i've given the

17:29

example before of

17:30

you know taking a small portable nuclear

17:32

reactor and you know putting it back

17:34

into victorian times you know with the

17:36

scientists of the time and just dropping

17:39

it in a room and they come and look at

17:41

it and see that it's producing power

17:43

and wonder how it works so they start

17:45

taking it apart

17:47

and

17:48

as soon as they get some of the

17:49

shielding off the people are going to

17:50

drop dead because of the radiation

17:52

inside

17:53

now the people have no idea that

17:56

radiation even exists back then

17:58

but anybody that comes in to check on

18:00

him will also drop dead and

18:03

you know

18:04

there's no reason that that exact

18:06

scenario couldn't happen with what we're

18:08

dealing with we have no idea how the

18:11

physics operate within this thing the

18:14

power levels are are like i said

18:16

astronomic like it's incredibly

18:18

dangerous to tinker with something like

18:20

that

18:21

and you know in some respects we were

18:23

guinea pigs just try to find out how to

18:25

make this thing so they had a series

18:28

as far as you're

18:29

surmised that a series of different

18:31

scientists try to back engineer this

18:33

thing try to figure out what this thing

18:35

was and they would bring in new people

18:36

and like let's throw bob at it yeah yeah

18:39

and they i know i don't know how many

18:41

but i knew there was certainly one

18:42

before me and i knew he died

18:45

during the analysis of the or the

18:47

reactor itself and

18:51

you don't know how many have worked on

18:53

it and no one

18:54

gave this could have been there for

18:56

50 years it could have been there for

18:58

five years when they're giving you

18:59

instructions what are they saying like

19:02

when they're giving you direction

19:03

they're showing you all the stuff like

19:04

what what are they saying what

19:05

specifically what are they asking of you

19:08

well essentially what they ask is is

19:10

what i said all we are just to gather as

19:12

much information as possible find out

19:14

how it operates and see if we can

19:16

duplicate it so but they always realize

19:18

you where it was from they never let you

19:20

ask questions about where it's from well

19:24

if

19:25

the information i read in the briefings

19:26

was accurate now what i do have to say

19:29

is

19:29

the information that pertained directly

19:32

to the reactor

19:33

was accurate what i read

19:36

did

19:38

i mean did jive with reality um in terms

19:41

of how

19:42

in terms of how it was made how what we

19:45

saw how it operated the materials how it

19:48

you know turned on and what was

19:50

discovered uh

19:52

discovered about it

19:54

i'm sorry the migraine is really making

19:56

it hard for me to thank you sorry no

19:58

we talked that before the podcast you

20:00

tell her buddy bob is getting a migraine

20:01

i know you're very stressed out by this

20:02

which is one of the reasons why i

20:03

appreciate you doing this

20:05

um

20:07

where was i already we were talking oh

20:08

right yeah explained it

20:10

and uh

20:11

so there was some paperwork that

20:15

indicated that this was from the zeta

20:17

reticuli star system now

20:20

yeah now how they obtain that i haven't

20:24

i haven't the slightest idea but it

20:26

wasn't just from the zeta reticuli star

20:28

system it was

20:29

what they called zr3 so it was a third

20:32

planet in that star system so

20:35

there was no other information about it

20:37

other than that supposedly where the

20:39

craft came from now is that true i don't

20:41

know i have no way of verifying that but

20:43

that was printed in the same materials

20:45

that referenced the reactor now i looked

20:47

that stuff up when i went home

20:50

and

20:51

zeta reticular is a binary star

20:54

two stars that orbit orbit one another

20:56

and it's only visible in the southern

20:58

hemisphere and it's about thirty some

21:00

odd light years away so that's literally

21:02

all the information i have about that i

21:04

don't know how they found out it came

21:06

from there and you also probably have

21:08

some suspicions that they give you some

21:10

disinformation like you were talking

21:12

about before they would yeah yeah to

21:15

i mean if you ever decided to talk about

21:17

this they added a bunch of nonsense to

21:19

make whatever is factual look ridiculous

21:21

right or be able to trace it down like

21:24

hey this facts came out and you know

21:26

this lazar guy said it you know came

21:28

from zeta reticulate so they knew it was

21:30

when we read zeta reticulate we're like

21:32

what in the [ __ ] is this well reading

21:36

all of this stuff it was what in the

21:37

[ __ ] is this you're like why did i sign

21:39

up for this

21:40

no no

21:41

to me this was cool this is interesting

21:43

i said i was just excited to be out in a

21:45

secure area you know in the middle of

21:47

the desert i said this is awesome how

21:49

old are you

21:50

i get as in my 20s

21:53

yeah so you're probably

21:54

totally geeked out oh yeah

21:56

this was this was great i mean i i was

21:59

excited so i didn't care

22:01

reading through everything and so you

22:02

read through all the zeta reticuli thing

22:04

but then when you see the actual

22:05

starship with the little american flag

22:07

sticker on it well that was

22:10

was that later or before

22:12

that

22:14

that was before so before so you see the

22:17

thing before and you say oh this is

22:18

where what's that before

22:20

hard so many years yeah i can't

22:22

either way it doesn't matter the days

22:24

have fused together it's so hard to

22:26

separate what happened in each visit do

22:28

you remember the thought process when

22:30

you read that it's from zeta reticuli

22:32

yeah it it it it didn't hit me like a

22:34

ton of bricks or anything it's just like

22:37

yeah okay

22:38

you think it was [ __ ] i don't know

22:40

this is where i don't know now i don't i

22:42

mean because when i read it i hadn't

22:44

verified anything and this was just a

22:45

bunch of stuff i was reading and i

22:47

thought maybe after this they're just

22:49

going to give me a test and see what i

22:50

can remember in right crazy information

22:53

and it would but

22:55

like i said when i finally

22:57

went in with barry

22:59

um

23:01

and had hands-on

23:02

experience with what they were talking

23:04

about

23:05

it taught on a completely different

23:07

meaning so there's a plate there's this

23:09

thing that looks like a half a

23:10

basketball and when it's on you can't

23:12

come anywhere near it you can't touch it

23:14

right how is

23:16

what is

23:17

gravity about that like the the concept

23:20

of gravity to most people gravity is

23:21

bringing something towards it right well

23:22

i guess you would say it's anti-gravity

23:25

it's gravity shifted 180 degrees it's uh

23:28

you know

23:29

anti-gravity

23:31

and did they have any understanding

23:34

about what could possibly create this

23:36

effect

23:38

did they have any

23:39

areas where they'd like you to look into

23:42

no they

23:46

well

23:47

they knew there was a fuel source in it

23:50

and they were proficient

23:52

at making it work

23:53

and again my analogy to something like

23:55

this is you can drop a motorcycle off in

23:58

the wagon train days and just leave it

23:59

with the keys parked outside you know

24:01

somebody's place everybody will come

24:04

around it and they'll poke and prod and

24:05

eventually they'll turn the key get it

24:07

to start and become proficient at

24:09

writing it

24:10

yeah but they won't be able to

24:13

understand what the hell's going on they

24:15

won't be able to make the plastic fender

24:17

much less anything else and i think

24:19

that's exactly the state we were at we

24:21

played around with the parts long enough

24:23

before i got there where they could make

24:25

the reactor operate

24:27

take the fuel out and know that it makes

24:30

it work

24:32

how exactly what was going on

24:35

in the reactor

24:36

remained a mystery at the time

24:39

i think we made some progress on

24:42

what was going on inside but i don't

24:45

think anybody really knew anything they

24:47

could just watch what was going on and

24:49

make note of it how long were you there

24:52

i'd say about six months or so and what

24:54

what progress was made while you were

24:56

there

24:57

well we came up with a bunch of

25:01

reasonably good ideas about how the

25:03

reactor worked

25:05

and one of them was the base the square

25:08

base of it was essentially like a

25:10

cyclotron which is a small particle

25:11

accelerator a circular one particle

25:14

accelerators linear particle

25:16

accelerators are just a you know

25:18

long tube essentially and they

25:20

accelerate particles with high voltage

25:21

and you know radio frequencies till they

25:23

reach high speeds but a cyclotron does

25:26

that in a smaller circular area and

25:29

there is this

25:31

very heavy element fuel element 115

25:34

something that wasn't on our periodic

25:35

charts

25:36

at the time but it is now it is now yeah

25:39

when did it become on the periodic table

25:42

now the way the charts now you know i

25:44

don't remember do you remember when they

25:46

2004

25:47

durhamstat germany i think is where they

25:49

first fabricated four atoms they lasted

25:51

220 milliseconds with the atoms it's

25:54

nothing right and then it later was

25:56

discovered a couple more times they

25:57

could fabricate it then they gave it

25:59

they gave it a place then on the

26:01

periodic chart after that called it

26:03

muscovium so they told you about this

26:06

stuff in

26:08

1982 yeah well we can 82 what what year

26:12

was this it was 88 and 89 when i was

26:16

there 82 is one 82 was when you're in

26:18

los alamos i'm sorry yeah so 88.89 they

26:21

told you about this stuff so this was

26:22

not like no they didn't they didn't tell

26:24

me about it that's one of the things

26:26

that this group came up with

26:28

the um

26:30

um

26:31

i keep losing my train of thought with

26:33

this thing

26:34

so this one area this

26:37

this element 115 was the fuel yeah it

26:41

was the fuel um

26:50

the the world will forgive you for

26:52

having a migraine i can i just it's

26:54

really hard to think throughout this

26:55

case

26:57

i just want to say one yeah definitely

26:58

as i said one thing you know but for the

27:00

last 30 years

27:02

people have just been on the attack on

27:04

bob you know getting to know him the

27:05

personal effects on his life it's really

27:08

hard to understand unless you meet his

27:10

family and his wife

27:11

i mean this is the last thing he wanted

27:13

to [ __ ] do was have to talk yeah we

27:16

should explain that jeremy you and i had

27:17

this conversation i watched your

27:19

documentary

27:20

we had this conversation and i said i

27:23

have to talk to him yeah the document

27:25

there's there's been detractors there's

27:27

been a bunch of people that called

27:29

[ __ ] on many of the things that

27:30

you've said but over time

27:33

many of the things that you talked about

27:35

even in the 80s have proven to be true

27:38

things that people said were not true

27:40

were proven to be true element 115 was

27:42

one of them

27:44

right right right

27:46

element 115 the fuel they had was stable

27:50

in other words it didn't decay it wasn't

27:51

emitting radioactivity um when they

27:54

synthesized the two or three atoms of

27:57

the 115 uh it did decay

28:00

and it was not a stable element so

28:02

they're they're kind of two different

28:04

things but this is kind of typical

28:06

elements

28:07

always have or pretty much always have

28:09

uh stable isotopes and unstable isotopes

28:12

like i think cesium has like

28:14

30 unstable isotopes to it so all right

28:17

well hydrogen for example you're

28:19

familiar with hydrogen gas

28:22

it's stable it's not radioactive but

28:24

there's also two other types of hydrogen

28:28

deuterium and tritium and deuterium

28:30

isn't radioactive it's another

28:33

stable isotope hydrogen but tritium is

28:35

radioactive now they're all hydrogen but

28:38

they just have a different amounts of

28:39

neutrons so it's the same thing with

28:42

other elements n element 115. depending

28:45

on the amount of neutrons it has

28:48

designates the isotope but it's 115 they

28:52

will continue to take

28:55

or experiment and try and make 115 at

28:58

different isotopes and i'm sure

28:59

eventually they'll come up with a stable

29:01

version but it's the stable version that

29:04

has the properties that we're talking

29:05

about so they somehow or another had

29:08

acquired a stable version did they say

29:10

that the stable version had come with

29:12

this craft it absolutely came with the

29:13

graft yeah so at the time you having a

29:17

firm knowledge of the periodic chart and

29:19

knowing what was real and what wasn't

29:21

real what was your reaction to having

29:23

this stable element 115 that wasn't even

29:26

supposed to exist well everything was

29:28

impossible right i mean down down to the

29:30

metal i i did get a chance

29:33

uh to look inside the craft on only one

29:36

occasion and this was important because

29:40

where the reactor sat

29:42

might have been critical to how it

29:43

operated since everything operates

29:46

without any interconnection so the

29:47

placement of components might be

29:50

critical so they allowed me to go inside

29:52

and and look at it

29:55

um

29:56

dude again i forgot where the hell i am

29:58

so you're going into this craft and what

30:00

are you thinking when you're inside of

30:02

it like what are you seeing it's um

30:05

it's a very ominous feeling because it's

30:09

there are no at first of all everything

30:11

is one color it's like a dark pewter

30:13

color

30:14

and there are no right angles anywhere

30:17

it's as if somebody took uh i've said

30:20

this before somebody took a a model out

30:23

of

30:23

and fashioned it out of wax and then

30:26

heated it just for a short time so

30:27

everything melted everything looks like

30:29

it's fused together everything has a

30:31

radius of curvature where two uh items

30:34

meet it's uh it's a really weird looking

30:37

thing

30:38

but um

30:41

uh

30:42

there was almost nothing

30:44

other than a small foldable hatchway

30:47

that

30:48

that looked recognizable everything was

30:51

uh

30:52

was really unworldly

30:54

depicting it a way to describe it so you

30:57

you get inside this thing and it's

30:59

designed for something that's much

31:01

smaller than a human being yeah you

31:02

can't really stand up till you get to

31:04

the very center of it and how tall are

31:05

you

31:06

i'm 5 10. and what do you think this was

31:08

designed for i'd say something close to

31:11

half my height wow

31:13

so these little

31:14

three foot tallish creatures

31:16

yeah and the the seats were small too i

31:19

mean obviously it was made you know for

31:21

something something small but there's no

31:25

like there's there's nothing else in

31:27

there there's just seats the reactor and

31:29

some of the sub components there's no

31:31

there's no control panels there's no

31:33

bathroom there's no

31:35

no decorative uh components or artwork

31:38

or anything that you would recognize or

31:40

trim i mean it's just a very bare bones

31:43

thing you're not seeing any screens

31:46

well there are archways around it that

31:49

are part of the superstructure

31:51

and

31:52

that one of the archways can become

31:54

transparent

31:56

when i was in there there was another

31:58

group working on one of the archways and

32:01

you could call that a screen more or

32:04

less

32:04

so through that archway it would be it

32:07

would maintain the solidity the the

32:10

solid

32:11

whatever metal it was yeah but you could

32:14

yeah it just became transparent yeah i

32:16

saw that happen once or twice before i

32:18

left did you ask any questions about

32:20

what the phone no there's no there's no

32:22

asking questions no

32:23

but when you watch something become

32:25

transparent and you realize it's still

32:27

there but you could now see through it

32:29

yeah i mean now that's not that

32:31

impressive we do have some liquid

32:33

crystal materials that are like that

32:35

you know they are seen in smart glass

32:37

yeah they call it smart glass so this is

32:39

just uh and i don't know if the craft is

32:41

made of

32:42

you know an advanced metal or a ceramic

32:45

it was cold to the touch

32:47

so um you know i would lean in more

32:49

towards the metal you're not allowed to

32:50

ask questions

32:52

no the only there they work on the buddy

32:54

system so i can only exchange ideas and

32:57

talk to barry

32:59

now this really interferes with science

33:02

because science is based on free

33:03

discussion and ideally you get a bunch

33:05

of guys together exchange ideas work on

33:08

problems and that's how things move

33:09

forward

33:10

but they're so over the top concerned

33:13

about security they split everything off

33:16

and

33:17

everybody becomes stagnant it it

33:20

it just destroys any of the progress you

33:23

can make or at least makes it go so slow

33:26

um they i think they wind up shooting

33:28

themselves in the foot which is probably

33:30

why they

33:31

arrived at this bottleneck that they

33:33

needed to get this madman with a jet

33:35

powered honda to come in and see what he

33:37

could do i think that was an act of

33:39

desperation i think they wanted someone

33:41

that thinks out of the box and let's

33:43

just give this guy a try here because

33:45

they weren't and uh they might have done

33:47

this

33:47

four more times since uh you know up to

33:50

the point in time today assuming they're

33:52

still working on this thing

33:54

and when you see this craft and you're

33:57

inside was there any

33:59

indication that there was an area that

34:01

they would use to control it to pilot

34:04

was there a pilot seat

34:06

was there's there were three seats they

34:08

sat around uh the reactor was in the

34:11

dead center of it

34:12

and then equidistant around there were

34:14

three seats

34:16

so and that's all there was a a large

34:19

you would they're not consoles there are

34:21

large rectangular objects also spaced

34:24

equidistant around the center um there's

34:27

nothing on them there's no buttons

34:29

there's no lights and they control the

34:31

same color everything is the same color

34:33

different shape right

34:34

and um

34:36

directly underneath them there's three

34:38

levels in the craft uh the main level is

34:41

what we're talking about directly under

34:43

that

34:44

those are the gravity amplifiers the big

34:46

rectangular objects underneath them are

34:48

the gravity emitters that look like for

34:51

lack of a better word a trash can

34:53

hanging on a pipe three of those and

34:55

then the top layer

34:58

i this is just my personal belief i

35:00

think that has to do with a

35:02

a navigation or their version of a

35:04

computer uh with some planar panels

35:08

sensor panels around the craft that we

35:10

would call portholes but they're not

35:11

portholes they're just black areas and i

35:14

think that just determines its

35:16

you know position in space

35:18

but i was i i physically was in the

35:21

center section and i stuck my torso in

35:24

the bottom section and hung upside down

35:26

so i could see

35:27

how the gravity amplifiers were

35:29

positioned

35:30

what is the the roughly the size of this

35:32

thing it's a i think it

35:34

i don't remember from being there but um

35:37

after all this stuff was over i had uh

35:40

john andrews a guy from the testers

35:42

model corporation and you know we sat

35:44

down and tried to figure out from what i

35:47

saw

35:48

um

35:49

and known sizes of things and we came up

35:51

with 52 feet in diameter

35:54

so i think that's really small yeah so i

35:56

think that's a fair a reasonable guess

35:59

now you said there's nine of them and

36:00

you got a brief glimpse at the other

36:02

ones were they how are they different

36:05

oh

36:06

they looked completely different one

36:08

looked like i called it jello mold and

36:10

it it looked like a classic jello mold

36:12

with the rippled sides to it one was a

36:14

very flat disc

36:16

um

36:18

you know like a

36:20

oh i don't like a straw hat or something

36:22

like that that was sitting up on its

36:24

edge and the thin part of it had looked

36:27

like a projectile had been fired through

36:30

the edge of it so i don't know if they

36:32

were attempting to see if the metal

36:34

could be penetrated or if something or

36:37

if that's

36:38

where the thing came from maybe it was

36:40

shot down um but that was the only one

36:42

where i saw there was you know actual

36:44

physical damage to it

36:46

and that one was roughly the same size

36:49

they're all uh they were kind of too far

36:50

away to tell

36:52

and did

36:54

there was several teams that were

36:56

working on the propulsion system so

36:57

there was different teams that were

36:59

working on these different aircrafts i i

37:01

don't know i could only assume

37:05

now when you're

37:06

sitting in this thing

37:08

and you're looking at this

37:10

otherworldly craft

37:12

your your goal is to try to figure out

37:14

how this thing functions your goal is to

37:17

try to figure out how this reactor

37:19

i mean but you would imagine they would

37:21

give you more time than just one day to

37:23

check that out oh yeah it wasn't one day

37:25

right

37:26

yeah i mean this is barry was there

37:29

i think barry was sleeping there i'm

37:31

sure they had now

37:33

that that isn't weird i mean up at the

37:35

toenap test range where they work on

37:36

stealth fighters you know you go i think

37:40

three weeks on one week off and you stay

37:42

up there too so it's not weird to stay

37:44

up at the test site right so um yeah i

37:46

think he pretty much didn't he acted

37:48

like he's been up there for a long time

37:50

yeah um

37:52

but he's still there yeah who knows do

37:54

you do you have contact with this guy no

37:57

oh no i wish i did i kind of thought he

37:59

was going to come out after i did right

38:03

and i think i took so much flack and

38:06

it's so much [ __ ] for what went on

38:09

i think i actually i wound up helping

38:11

security there and everybody became

38:13

afraid of you know doing or saying

38:15

anything after that

38:17

so what kind of reports did you have to

38:20

give like so you're not making much

38:21

progress right you're just trying to

38:22

figure out what this thing is and it

38:24

seems impossible so well we didn't

38:26

personally make them i mean we were

38:28

always there was never a lot of

38:31

information

38:32

that we gained um

38:34

the guy

38:35

you would call him our supervisor his

38:37

name was dennis mariani

38:39

and kind of a military looking guy and

38:42

he would routinely pop in you know

38:44

during the day and you know hey what's

38:47

going on guys and he would essentially

38:50

relay any information anything new we

38:52

came up with i mean he was our

38:54

go-between you know where we presented

38:56

him the information then he took it to

38:58

wherever they were

38:59

you know

39:00

assembling all the data from everybody

39:02

no i assume you're working normal days

39:04

like an eight-hour day no

39:06

no

39:07

no it was really weird that i would be

39:09

only called in on certain times and

39:11

certain days and they would be weird

39:13

hours too

39:15

most of the time was later in the

39:16

evening i mean i can get a call at 11

39:18

o'clock at night and they'll say you

39:20

know it's now 11 o'clock

39:22

um

39:23

by 11 45 you need to be at mccarran

39:26

terminal and um

39:29

you know we'll let you know when

39:31

we have more information but what did

39:33

you do while you were there if you're

39:35

looking at this

39:37

object this

39:38

reactor and you can't figure out what it

39:41

is or how it works other than the fact

39:43

that it works on this element that we

39:44

don't even know about sure i mean the

39:46

thing was to

39:48

what you do in you know

39:50

with anything if you're trying to

39:52

analyze it all you can do is perform

39:54

tests

39:55

and all we did is try and come up with

39:57

every kind of test we possibly could i

40:00

mean we tested you know it

40:03

it violated

40:05

a lot of what we thought was impossible

40:06

to violate i mean one of the first laws

40:09

of thermodynamics i mean essentially any

40:12

machine any device that operates always

40:14

makes extra heat

40:16

nothing works at 100 efficient

40:18

even the headphones you're wearing

40:20

anything that takes power some of that

40:23

power is going to be con converted to

40:24

heat and it's just wasted

40:27

this didn't i mean we looked at back

40:29

then we had infrared cameras they're

40:31

different today but back then you had to

40:32

pour liquid nitrogen

40:34

into the camera to cool the sensor down

40:37

and um

40:38

and get these infrared images you've

40:40

seen

40:41

but it never got no matter what the load

40:43

was on the reactor it never got above

40:46

the ambient temperature which is

40:48

impossible i mean you're you know

40:52

pulling out huge amounts of power and

40:54

nothing ever gets warm

40:57

we tried measuring magnetic fields and

40:59

there was was nothing there so we

41:01

started playing around with the

41:04

emission from the emitters the gravity

41:05

wave itself

41:07

and saw what we could do with it and how

41:10

it was focused so we really spent all

41:12

our time

41:14

just trying to see

41:16

what the stuff can do and what we can

41:18

control so you were seeing what it could

41:20

do but you couldn't ever figure out how

41:22

it was doing it

41:24

no not really i mean we really we really

41:27

could only use a or come up with a best

41:29

guess and

41:31

now i can't say we really

41:34

that i could absolutely state for

41:36

certainly or certainty how anything

41:39

actually worked

41:40

now

41:41

how do did you know at all how they were

41:44

piloting it because some they were doing

41:47

some tests where they're having these

41:50

things

41:50

fly around in the sky

41:53

and this is

41:54

what gets us deeper into your story

41:56

right um

42:00

i was out there for uh

42:03

one test

42:04

um

42:05

right in fact i was in with barry in the

42:08

lab and dennis came in and said uh we're

42:11

about to run the test why don't you guys

42:13

come out or i think he said barry why

42:15

don't you come out here and bring bob

42:18

with you uh we went out there and

42:21

the craft was already outside the hangar

42:24

and was just preparing to lift off now

42:27

they were in communication with somebody

42:29

in the craft so there's a person in the

42:31

crowd yeah there was

42:33

certainly a person in there now it's not

42:35

a comfortable place to be in because

42:37

it's small so the guy has to be sitting

42:39

on the floor in the middle uh my best

42:42

guess and this is the same specific

42:44

craft that you heard that was because

42:45

you were that was the only craft that

42:46

you were the only one that i i touched

42:48

and worked on um

42:50

and it it quietly lifted off the ground

42:53

which was incredibly impressive to see

42:56

quietly or silently

42:58

what's

42:59

well quietly because it

43:01

didn't make sense

43:03

it produced um

43:05

a little corona discharge from the

43:07

bottom a corona discharge is kind of a

43:09

high voltage brush little bluish glow

43:11

discharge as it was lifting off the

43:13

ground you can hear a slight hiss sound

43:16

now as soon as it cleared the ground by

43:17

about five or ten feet

43:19

maybe even less than that the hissing

43:21

stopped and the blue gold disappeared so

43:24

it lifted off quietly and then it

43:26

hovered silently if you want to be

43:28

specific

43:29

wow so then what kind of maneuvers was

43:32

it doing

43:33

it took uh for that particular time it

43:35

took off moved a little around around to

43:38

the left and right and then sat back

43:39

down

43:40

the um

43:42

the craft itself

43:44

um

43:46

they communicated with it with a reg

43:48

because i saw the guy talking

43:52

in a regular vhf radio

43:54

to the person in the craft and i even

43:57

saw the frequency that was on the

43:59

the frequency counter of the uh

44:02

communication the transceiver there

44:04

um

44:05

but what's weird is

44:07

he shouldn't be able to communicate

44:09

with the craft with a radio the radio

44:13

the radio wave should bend around the

44:14

craft i mean it shouldn't be possible

44:17

every single thing about these the craft

44:20

and the way they operated

44:22

didn't make any sense to us i mean

44:25

that's something we talked about for a

44:26

while after why should the frequency

44:28

bend around the craft

44:30

well

44:31

you really have to look at the way the

44:32

gravity wave comes out of the craft

44:35

there's a the reactors in the center and

44:37

there's a waveguide that goes up to the

44:39

top there's actually a small appendage

44:41

that sticks out at the top of the craft

44:43

and it produces a heart-shaped

44:44

gravitational distortion around the

44:46

craft now if the craft is sitting in the

44:49

air and you walk underneath it and look

44:52

up

44:53

you actually cannot see the craft the

44:56

light bends around it your bending

44:58

gravity bends light it bends radio waves

45:01

it's um

45:03

it it shouldn't be possible to

45:06

communicate with a craft that has an

45:07

envelope around it that's distorting all

45:10

forms of energy

45:11

but

45:13

they were apparently in contact with it

45:15

somehow or another through some

45:17

unexplained way that they don't bother

45:19

explaining to you

45:21

so this thing gets up it just does some

45:22

very simple maneuvers left right left

45:24

right goes down

45:26

um and

45:27

did they discuss this with you i mean

45:29

they said they wanted you to see it no

45:30

they they just wanted no they they

45:32

didn't discuss anything with me it said

45:35

it sat down we looked around for a bit

45:37

and barry said let's go back we went

45:38

back in the lab all we got to do is see

45:40

it

45:41

um

45:42

fast forward

45:45

to some months later

45:47

i did have the test flight schedule of

45:49

the craft now they had times they had

45:51

designated high performance tests this

45:54

obviously wasn't one

45:56

that was a high performance test the

45:59

high performance test went goes above

46:02

the mountain range and they do much more

46:04

radical moves with the thing look this

46:05

is a prized item and they're not doing

46:09

anything like taking it out of the

46:10

atmosphere or flying around to other

46:12

countries or anything like that

46:13

they just play with this thing right

46:15

over the test site

46:17

but they were doing some radical moves

46:19

with it

46:19

and since i had the test flight schedule

46:22

statistically

46:25

the

46:26

amount of traffic and the surrounding

46:28

areas on the highway was lowest on

46:30

wednesdays and that's why

46:32

dennis told us that

46:34

all the test flights occurred only on

46:36

wednesdays because it'd be the least

46:39

chance that anyone would see what's

46:40

going on

46:41

and this was before the the government

46:44

had expanded the forbidden territory

46:47

around area 51 and papoose lake and all

46:50

that stuff right

46:51

yeah i think that occurred

46:53

after my story came out then people

46:56

started going up on the mountaintops and

46:58

trying to look down into there and they

47:00

kind of freaked out and then did the

47:02

land grab and pushed everybody back but

47:04

yeah that i think all that occurred long

47:07

after

47:08

i'm sorry that i came out

47:10

so

47:11

you're working there and while you're

47:13

working there you're under this crazy

47:15

schedule

47:16

forgive me for explaining your story but

47:19

you

47:20

uh would get these phone calls you would

47:22

have to go to the to the airport at 11

47:26

p.m

47:27

and your wife started thinking that you

47:29

were having an affair

47:31

yeah apparently so

47:33

um now i did give my permission to have

47:36

you know as as part of the

47:38

you know security clearance process um i

47:41

i gave written permission to have the

47:43

phones monitored and things of that sort

47:45

so they weren't doing any covert stuff

47:47

they um

47:49

you know with any queue clearance or

47:51

which is civilian top secret clearance

47:53

or military top secret clearance they go

47:55

talk to friends and

47:57

you know

47:58

place places you've been make sure

48:00

you're not connected to foreign

48:01

countries but you know monitoring your

48:03

phone is nothing unusual

48:04

however

48:06

they

48:07

insisted that

48:08

you know you don't even talk

48:10

to your loved one to your partner to

48:12

your wife whatever about what's going on

48:14

so she was essentially in the dark

48:17

and didn't know the phone was being

48:18

monitored

48:19

well

48:21

part of the security clearance

48:23

is that not only do you not have any

48:25

connections to foreign countries and

48:27

aren't a maniac but you have to have a

48:29

stable home life too

48:31

well she started having an affair with a

48:33

flight instructor

48:35

now they were monitoring this on the

48:37

phone and they knew it and i didn't

48:39

so they stopped me

48:41

coming in and their attitude at the time

48:44

was

48:45

we need to see how this is going to play

48:47

out and if lazar is going to get a

48:49

little weird or anything so

48:51

let's just

48:52

you know hold him off from coming in

48:55

and

48:56

you know see what happens and they

48:58

explain this to you what was happening

49:00

well after the fact yeah because time

49:02

kind of went on

49:04

and

49:05

there were guys that were following me

49:06

around and i started getting a little

49:09

concerned going well

49:10

ted are they

49:12

booting me out of the project and if so

49:16

they're not just going to let me hang

49:17

out at home and go get a new job knowing

49:19

what i know

49:21

so

49:22

as time went on i started getting a

49:24

little concerned and

49:26

i took my closest friends and just kind

49:28

of got together and i said hey

49:30

remember that job i told you about

49:33

this is what's going on

49:35

and uh like you don't need to take my

49:37

word for it

49:38

on wednesday night we need to all go out

49:40

here i want to show you what's going on

49:42

so i took everybody and we went out to

49:45

um remember since i had the test flight

49:48

schedule and went outside the base

49:51

out into the desert and so everybody

49:53

could see you know one of the high

49:55

performance tests

49:56

and you know it left quite an imprint on

49:59

everybody so they knew i wasn't and

50:01

there's videos of these tests right yeah

50:03

but remember this is in the

50:05

it's in in the dark in the 80s with a

50:07

big monster-sized camcorder and you got

50:09

you know a bright light jumping around

50:11

but uh yeah i mean we did video of it

50:14

but there's no

50:15

by today's standards it's but is your

50:17

video specifically available the video

50:19

that you took

50:20

yeah well george knapp has it it's is it

50:24

i have no idea jeremy yeah i show clips

50:26

of it in my film it's it's online and

50:28

someone did a deep analysis of it uh it

50:30

was interesting uh to take a look at how

50:33

well this microphone up to your face

50:34

about a fist from your face all right

50:36

um you know to see how his video looks

50:39

now but as far as video evidence i mean

50:41

we are talking 80s camp was the most

50:43

important thing is the human story here

50:45

everybody that he took up there on three

50:48

separate occasions they don't all like

50:50

each other they don't all talk they all

50:52

agree on one thing they saw something

50:54

that night at the exact point in time

50:56

and space that babazar said and remember

50:58

this is 17 15 17 miles south of air 51.

51:01

no one even knew really about air 51

51:03

we're talking papoose lake and they all

51:05

agree they saw something that night they

51:07

had never seen before and they've never

51:09

seen since right when he said it so

51:11

that's one of like the six things where

51:13

i'm like how did he know you can dismiss

51:15

him i i tried to dismiss it but some

51:18

things we can't get around and and

51:19

there's about five or six of them how

51:21

did he know about this if jamie wants to

51:23

find that video right now what would he

51:24

look under

51:25

bob lazar ufo

51:28

s for

51:30

area 51 just kind of like that uh so

51:32

it's like this s4 ufo video bob lazar

51:35

and a guy does an analysis but you're

51:37

not analyzing these 80s videos right he

51:41

from the very beginning bob never said i

51:43

have proof of my story and i'm going to

51:45

tell the world he said at the very

51:47

beginning i cannot prove my story that's

51:50

not why i'm telling this george knapp

51:52

convinced him to tell people

51:54

and he lived through it and i i didn't

51:56

believe it either until i i talked with

51:58

george

51:59

okay so you

52:00

you filmed these

52:02

this test flight one test flight and

52:04

then you get caught

52:06

actually it was i think the third time

52:09

because it

52:10

we went out there the first time

52:13

everybody saw it everybody was amazed

52:15

because it did some radical maneuvers

52:17

and um you know everybody had a lot of

52:20

maneuvers that i've seen i've seen the

52:22

video it doesn't i don't think there's

52:24

something we have now that does that no

52:26

in terms of like a human piloted craft

52:29

i mean i don't know obviously with the

52:31

government no it's it's impossible

52:32

nothing can move like that and remember

52:35

we didn't start filming from the very

52:36

beginning

52:37

you know

52:39

we were waiting for something you know

52:40

to happen the craft took off and then

52:42

came flying at us stopped you know

52:44

turned it a right angle flew back and

52:46

then you know after it did some you know

52:48

amazing stuff

52:49

to get the camera and then we started

52:51

filming so it doesn't have all of it on

52:53

there it just has some the way i

52:55

describe it to my friends and they said

52:56

what does it look like i said take a

52:58

laser pointer and then have a wall and

53:00

then move it around the wall like you

53:02

know how it moves around the wall it

53:03

doesn't seem like it has anything to do

53:04

with inertia or physics or it's not

53:07

impeded in any way by the atmosphere

53:09

yeah that's what it looks like you're

53:11

essentially separated from reality as

53:14

crazy as that sounds with it being in in

53:17

case it's an own gravitational envelope

53:20

inertia is not going to affect it and

53:22

you know this is

53:25

this is how some of those recent

53:26

sightings of commander david fravor i'm

53:28

sure you've heard of the

53:30

ufo i mean he describes exactly

53:33

that the thing operates exactly the way

53:35

i was describing that's why

53:37

he was interested to talk to me um but

53:40

we saw this

53:42

and

53:43

you know on the way home it's like hey

53:45

we got away with it we should try it

53:46

again the next test flight date so this

53:49

became a thing to do

53:51

and i think it was on

53:52

the third time

53:54

that we got caught i mean we started

53:57

becoming a little careless i think we

53:59

took a motor home out there

54:01

you know i mean it was like the

54:02

stupidest thing you could possibly start

54:04

tailgating yeah it was ridiculous and um

54:07

again you're in your 20s yeah and you

54:10

know what was funny was um

54:13

we went out there and

54:15

my friend gene huff and i were leaning

54:17

on the front of a vehicle

54:19

and

54:21

just for some reason we just started

54:23

talking [ __ ] like uh well i hope they

54:26

realize that uh

54:29

i don't remember what we were saying but

54:31

you know that

54:33

something about attacking the base or

54:34

something along those lines and stealing

54:37

the craft or

54:38

something like that

54:40

and um

54:41

then about 20 feet in front of us we see

54:43

a little green light

54:45

fall on the ground and roll to us

54:47

and unbeknownst to us now it's pitch

54:50

black you can't see your hand in front

54:51

of your face there were a bunch of

54:52

guards standing right out there and they

54:54

had a night vision scope where they were

54:56

like from here to the wall looking at us

54:59

listening to us and the guy dropped it

55:00

and the scope rolled over to us and you

55:02

could see the green screen

55:04

you know we turn the lights on and all

55:06

these guys are there so

55:08

it was uh whoa yeah yeah so we did

55:10

incredibly stupid stuff and got caught

55:12

as we should have because so when they

55:14

catch you and they bring you in then

55:15

what happens well i went in for

55:17

debriefing

55:19

the following day i went to indian

55:21

springs air force base which is kind of

55:23

a defunct

55:24

base that they used to use at the

55:26

nuclear test site

55:28

and this is when they brought out

55:31

um

55:32

the transcript of the phone call

55:34

with my wife

55:36

and you know they sat me down and we

55:38

said you know when we meant to keep the

55:40

secret we meant you can't tell your

55:43

friends right you know and it just being

55:45

sarcastic and trying to mm-hmm um and

55:48

then they got real serious

55:50

uh but this is where they

55:52

you know took the transcript out and

55:54

were reading me what uh

55:56

my wife

55:58

and

55:59

you know our friend were talking about

56:01

and uh

56:03

it was a hard time so what happens from

56:05

there

56:08

what do they do with you why don't they

56:09

arrest you

56:10

i don't i don't know i don't know why

56:13

i'm not sure they exactly they knew what

56:15

to do but they did let me go

56:18

that night and i went home

56:20

and that this is kind of when the most

56:22

stressful part started because you're

56:24

realizing you're being monitored

56:26

yeah now i know not only am i being

56:28

monitored but now i know i'm in trouble

56:31

and uh it wasn't a short time after that

56:33

that i contacted you know at that time

56:36

the

56:37

only investigative reporter i had heard

56:39

of in las vegas was george knapp

56:41

and um you know told him some of the

56:43

story because i had no idea what the

56:45

hell was going to happen at that point

56:47

so george knapp

56:49

tries to

56:50

dissect your story tries to find holes

56:52

in it

56:53

tells it puts it online and makes

56:56

everybody aware of it and that's how i

56:57

found out about it yeah to make a long

56:59

story short

57:01

what happens yeah to really make a long

57:02

story short what happens from there on i

57:05

mean do they contact you and say hey bob

57:07

it's probably a good idea if you shut up

57:12

how

57:13

did they try to label you as crazy was

57:15

there

57:17

there were boy there were a lot of

57:19

things that happened at you know between

57:22

that point um i'm leaving out a lot of

57:24

stuff to fill in the story

57:28

we'd have to go back to los alamos and

57:30

and

57:33

well i really don't want to talk about

57:34

that the um

57:37

top secret weapons

57:39

stuff that you were working on

57:41

no i'm talking about the 115.

57:43

um

57:46

well i don't know i have to think about

57:47

how i'd

57:49

what is the problem

57:52

i don't want to get myself into more

57:55

trouble by admitting something so

57:57

um i just have to dance around a couple

57:59

he was created just during the filming

58:01

of the movie people thought the movie's

58:03

great by the way thanks joe and uh it's

58:05

on netflix right now if anybody wants to

58:07

check it out and if you're one of those

58:08

people like me

58:10

who um you know i've always

58:12

loved the idea of ufos i became

58:15

extremely weary talking to people who

58:17

are ufo believers and ufo fanatics

58:19

because there's so many of them that are

58:21

full of [ __ ] and not just full of [ __ ]

58:23

they're they're childishly delirious

58:26

like the way they talk about things i

58:28

mean there's so many people that are

58:30

that i'm in contact they they reach me

58:33

in the night and they explain to me what

58:34

we're doing to the ocean is wrong and

58:37

like you're like okay this is one of the

58:39

reasons i didn't want to do the show

58:44

well it's i mean it's no joke we've had

58:46

people literally camp out on our front

58:48

lawn and uh

58:50

you know

58:51

in some ways i can relate to some of

58:53

these people you know maybe some of them

58:55

did really have some kind of experience

58:57

or saw something and all their friends

58:59

think they're crazy but hey now there's

59:01

this guy i heard on the radio

59:03

and uh at least he knows i'm not full of

59:06

[ __ ] so i gotta talk to him and so most

59:08

of the

59:09

correspondents i get are people trying

59:11

to get a hold of me going bob you you

59:13

gotta listen to me i'm i'm coming to

59:15

talk to you i'm you know i'm driving

59:16

from oklahoma or whatever and and and

59:20

but some of them are just [ __ ] bad

59:22

[ __ ] crazy yeah they're frightening

59:24

there's a lot of schizophrenics that are

59:26

involved in the conspiracy world so

59:29

there's a lot of people that have real

59:30

issues joe

59:31

it would be a disservice to your

59:33

audience to not say that

59:36

we have to look at what's going on now

59:37

and understand i've heard

59:39

on your show a bunch of stuff about

59:40

what's going on now and to not really

59:43

understand what's going on now you can't

59:45

see bob's story in the correct light

59:48

after 30 years and at some point we

59:50

should just touch upon that

59:52

um the the biggest being that things

59:55

like the tic tac ufo case that came out

59:57

i've heard people even on the show say

59:59

oh there's a glitch in the radar

1:00:01

that's a data poor perspective you just

1:00:04

don't know yet what's really going on

1:00:06

commander fravor i was able to get the

1:00:08

interview with him to talk with him way

1:00:09

before it became public i got that from

1:00:12

him he saw it other pilots saw it this

1:00:15

is a big thing that's going on right now

1:00:18

they had more sightings on the east

1:00:20

coast recently cubes with spherical

1:00:23

auras these are not aerodynamic and

1:00:24

these are the people we trust to defend

1:00:26

us on 911 commander favor protected los

1:00:28

angeles and 911. so we trust them but

1:00:31

they're not trained observers

1:00:33

radar

1:00:34

individuals see these things and the big

1:00:36

the big one just to throw down so we can

1:00:37

consider a story a little differently

1:00:39

there's more depth to it the big one is

1:00:41

the united states government has

1:00:43

admitted that they have been

1:00:44

continuously studying the ufo phenomenon

1:00:47

that program was called a tip advanced

1:00:50

error or sorry

1:00:52

was called awsap that that's the

1:00:54

mother program george knapp got that out

1:00:57

they they announced through the new york

1:00:58

times about a tip

1:01:00

but awesome these acronyms asap advanced

1:01:02

aerospace weapon systems applications

1:01:04

program who cares

1:01:06

that was the mother program so they've

1:01:07

admitted we didn't stop studying ufos in

1:01:09

1969 with project blue book we don't

1:01:11

think it's crazy we actually want to

1:01:13

reverse engineer the technology that's

1:01:15

why on your other show you said what's

1:01:16

this aav thing it's like they're making

1:01:18

up another ufo name well hold on there's

1:01:20

a reason because in the documents the

1:01:23

the dia documents that george knapp

1:01:25

released that everybody said was fake

1:01:26

till now they know is real

1:01:28

they call them aavs which is advanced

1:01:32

aerospace vehicles people are getting

1:01:34

the acronyms wrong so the reason for the

1:01:36

terminology change is so that we can

1:01:38

mimic what we're reading in the dia

1:01:40

documents people can look for that now

1:01:42

so they changed the names to get people

1:01:44

away from ufo or uap even like hillary

1:01:47

clinton said on air right so what are

1:01:49

you talking about hillary clinton

1:01:51

hillary clinton

1:01:52

informed the public on jimmy kimmel oh

1:01:55

jimmy we don't call them ufos anymore we

1:01:58

call them uaps unidentified aerial

1:02:00

phenomenon

1:02:02

right so she kind of was giving their

1:02:03

the clintons are very into the ufo topic

1:02:06

senator reid you know he he's done a lot

1:02:08

for the for the subject the study of it

1:02:10

right

1:02:11

so she informed the public so they could

1:02:13

look for the right term so these terms

1:02:15

are important because the dia in those

1:02:17

documents they've been calling them aavs

1:02:20

for quite some time now and they change

1:02:22

the name to anomalous no that that's

1:02:25

kind of a misnomer

1:02:26

so

1:02:27

they always mess around with things but

1:02:29

it's actually advanced right but when

1:02:32

they're describing it in the news they

1:02:33

were calling an anomalous space vehicle

1:02:35

totally and that's cool they were also

1:02:37

saying anomalous aerospace threats aat

1:02:40

right because they want the sense of a

1:02:42

threat right so my point is all of if

1:02:45

people don't know this now and they

1:02:46

think this stuff is is fantasy this this

1:02:48

part of it that we're studying it that

1:02:50

we take it seriously we're spending

1:02:51

money on it and that we're getting great

1:02:54

data from from visual pilots to to radar

1:02:56

that's why we know it's aerospace they

1:02:58

dropped from 80 000 feet but guess what

1:03:00

that's the top scope of the spy 1 radar

1:03:03

is 80 000 feet so the radar system they

1:03:05

were using it was coming from above that

1:03:08

so my point is this

1:03:10

if you don't understand that this is

1:03:12

happening you're just behind the curve

1:03:14

because you don't have the information

1:03:16

because of the stigma that you're

1:03:18

talking about i saw you get totally

1:03:20

upset with the ufo topic i met you first

1:03:22

when you're totally upset with the ufo

1:03:24

topic it's the people when

1:03:26

when when you're doing your

1:03:28

i'm sorry man when you're when you're

1:03:29

doing your show you know the joe organ

1:03:31

questions everything

1:03:33

i could see

1:03:34

how

1:03:35

how frustrating is trust me i have been

1:03:37

frustrated to hell luckily my mentors

1:03:39

george knapp and he's taught me the pit

1:03:40

bull pitfalls as i went through it my

1:03:43

whole point in this rant right here

1:03:45

is just that we have to now look at

1:03:47

bob's story but knowing the facts

1:03:50

not someone saying it's a bird it's a

1:03:52

plane it's a glitch

1:03:54

they're not and so if you don't know

1:03:56

that you just don't have the information

1:03:57

yet not just that knowing the facts as

1:03:59

we know him in 2019 not in 1988

1:04:02

absolutely and so what has he said

1:04:05

that has come true he's totally

1:04:07

unimpressed with it right what has he

1:04:08

said this come true so i was like bob

1:04:10

they've announced gravity as a wave you

1:04:13

were right man you're vindicated and he

1:04:15

looks at me and he's like well if you

1:04:17

think about it jeremy i had like a 50 50

1:04:19

chance he was not very impressed right

1:04:22

when did they announce gravity as a wave

1:04:24

so they detected in a sense they

1:04:26

detected gravity waves who were who was

1:04:29

they

1:04:30

you might know more there's two black

1:04:32

holes that were colliding and that's how

1:04:33

they were able to detect yeah somebody

1:04:35

bill i don't know which group it was or

1:04:37

what part of the government that's what

1:04:39

google's for yeah would it but they um

1:04:42

you know built a gigantic gravity wave

1:04:44

detector and pretty much

1:04:47

detected that there are such things as

1:04:50

first observation of gravitational waves

1:04:53

it says it was in 2016.

1:04:56

okay the first observation of

1:04:57

gravitational waves was made on 14th of

1:05:00

september 2015 right as announced by the

1:05:02

ligo and virgo collaborators on the 11th

1:05:06

of february 2016 previously

1:05:08

gravitational waves had only been

1:05:10

inferred indirectly via their effect on

1:05:13

the timing of pulsars in binary star

1:05:16

systems

1:05:18

the waveform connected by both

1:05:21

ligo ligo observatories match the

1:05:24

predictions of general relativity for

1:05:27

gravity for a gravitational wave

1:05:32

emanating from the inward sp i'm trying

1:05:34

to get this from the inward spiral and

1:05:37

merger of a pair of black holes around

1:05:39

36 and 29 solar masses and the

1:05:42

subsequent

1:05:43

ring down

1:05:44

of the single resulting black hole

1:05:47

well that i mean

1:05:49

yeah it's not he was in the 80s the

1:05:51

predominant theory was gravity is

1:05:53

produced by gravitons okay you know part

1:05:55

of theoretic theoretical particles but

1:05:58

um they're not they're waves they're not

1:06:00

particles and that's so the thought is

1:06:03

that the way we experience gravity it's

1:06:05

based on mass which is why the moon

1:06:08

which is

1:06:09

roughly one quarter the size of the

1:06:11

earth has one sixth of the earth's

1:06:13

gravity so there's some sort of a

1:06:14

computation you can make based on mass

1:06:16

right and and remember

1:06:18

we can observe

1:06:20

the effects of gravity but we have no

1:06:22

idea what it is all we can do is observe

1:06:25

it and we can't make it the only way you

1:06:27

can make gravity is just put more mass

1:06:29

together and it's just a product of

1:06:31

gravity but if you can make a if you

1:06:34

have a machine that makes gravity

1:06:37

you can pretty much do anything you can

1:06:39

affect time you can have force fields

1:06:42

all that stuff that's in science fiction

1:06:44

becomes reality if you have a machine

1:06:47

that can make gravity and what we worked

1:06:49

on in the desert was a machine that

1:06:51

makes gravity i love your analogy of

1:06:54

dropping off a small nuclear reactor to

1:06:57

the victorian era i love that that

1:06:59

analogy because back then that was

1:07:02

impossible that was magic

1:07:04

what you're talking about here the fact

1:07:07

that they just discovered this four

1:07:09

years ago that this is a wave when we're

1:07:12

as much as we know and as impressed as

1:07:14

we are as we should be with how much

1:07:17

more

1:07:17

technologically advanced we are than

1:07:19

every other creature on this planet

1:07:21

we're still in many ways in the

1:07:22

adolescence of technological innovation

1:07:25

absolutely

1:07:26

absolutely if even adolescence and when

1:07:30

you're talking about this binary star

1:07:32

system zeta reticuli and who knows how

1:07:36

much longer these things have been

1:07:37

around than us who knows what their

1:07:40

evolutionary cycle's been who knows what

1:07:43

i mean we might be talking about

1:07:44

something that's a million years more

1:07:45

advanced than us

1:07:46

yeah yeah it could easily be now i'm not

1:07:49

in

1:07:50

believe it or not i'm not into ufos i

1:07:52

don't follow stories or you know even

1:07:55

after your experiences no i'm fascinated

1:07:57

with the technology and i i it really it

1:08:00

irks me like every night i go to sleep

1:08:02

that you know i don't

1:08:05

that it was my own doing essentially

1:08:08

that

1:08:09

that prevented me from continuing on in

1:08:11

the in the project i mean it's the

1:08:13

that to be on that cutting edge of

1:08:15

technology is so alluring to me right

1:08:18

but

1:08:20

you know by the same token i don't

1:08:22

really care that there's aliens or where

1:08:24

they come from i mean the prize is the

1:08:26

technology and that's what i'm

1:08:27

fascinated by but so i don't listen to

1:08:29

ufo stories and that sort of thing but

1:08:31

george knapp is um

1:08:33

i mean he's the guy that has the context

1:08:36

and tries to thread everything together

1:08:38

and

1:08:39

what he recently told me is he found

1:08:42

i don't know is either documentation or

1:08:44

people that he spoke to it's at this the

1:08:46

existence of this project the project

1:08:48

that i was on it's something that they

1:08:52

seem to take out every eight or ten

1:08:54

years so that's a very specific memo and

1:08:57

this is actually i this is the first

1:08:59

time i'll be very clear with people

1:09:00

about it it's a big topic of

1:09:01

conversation right now it's called the

1:09:03

wilson memo

1:09:05

you can look it up

1:09:06

admiral wilson met with a scientist

1:09:09

who's actually was featured in one of my

1:09:10

films

1:09:11

everybody has been debating whether or

1:09:13

not this document

1:09:15

of a conversation

1:09:17

with a with a sitting admiral at the

1:09:19

time is a real

1:09:20

document it's an actual conversation

1:09:22

that happened and this document is real

1:09:24

everybody wants to know the world is

1:09:25

going crazy right now in the ufo world

1:09:27

i'll tell you straight up right now

1:09:29

i'm in the position to know and it is a

1:09:31

real document

1:09:33

that it is real so the conversation you

1:09:36

read in that

1:09:37

that conversation was had i can't attest

1:09:39

to everything

1:09:40

you're not being very clear sure please

1:09:42

no problem

1:09:43

so there was a document that is

1:09:45

circulating right now that is really big

1:09:47

it's going around everywhere people are

1:09:49

asking what is this talking about it's

1:09:51

called the wilson memo is what how you

1:09:52

can find it online

1:09:54

the or the wilson leak there it is

1:09:56

jimmy's got it the wilson memorandum use

1:09:59

of human volunteers no no no no no

1:10:02

yeah so uh

1:10:04

admiral wilson meets with this scientist

1:10:07

and they have this discussion oddly

1:10:09

enough at special projects at egng and

1:10:11

if i remember the document is from 2001

1:10:14

i'm telling everybody right now it's

1:10:15

real and we'll see my history is pretty

1:10:17

good with like saying if something's

1:10:19

real or not right so here we go the

1:10:21

document comes out they meet at eg

1:10:23

special projects in 1989 they stumble

1:10:27

into a problem

1:10:28

this happens they put the technology

1:10:31

away and then they bring it back out and

1:10:33

see if material science has caught up

1:10:35

and if they can make any progress so

1:10:37

this document kind of talks about this

1:10:39

process the big thing i get from it and

1:10:41

a lot of it's vindicating to bob and one

1:10:43

of the things that's vindicating besides

1:10:45

the eg g thing

1:10:46

is that private industry so this guy's

1:10:49

an admiral and he says i found out about

1:10:52

your sap your special access program i

1:10:55

need to know about it and he's going to

1:10:57

a private part of industry

1:11:00

and he is denied access

1:11:02

and he says i you know i should be

1:11:04

running this program and they were able

1:11:06

to deny him access

1:11:08

so i think the takeaway here is check it

1:11:11

out i'm telling you that that is an

1:11:12

actual correct that is a leak now

1:11:15

everything said in that document i'm i

1:11:16

don't know what are you talking about

1:11:18

what what is said in that document

1:11:19

specifically it's it's a between a

1:11:21

scientist and an admiral that are

1:11:23

sitting and they're having a meeting and

1:11:25

they're talking about

1:11:26

the the search for the the ufo subject

1:11:29

the search to get special access program

1:11:31

access to all of these different things

1:11:34

like reverse engineering programs

1:11:37

so in this document they talk about it

1:11:40

uh i believe that

1:11:42

this document that the person that went

1:11:43

was employed by robert bigelow you know

1:11:45

one of the guys that has a couple of

1:11:46

orbiting satellites and all that stuff

1:11:48

who's the guy owned skinwalker ranch no

1:11:50

he's not he was the guy the walker okay

1:11:54

yeah he used to own it there's a new

1:11:55

owner and i i interview him for my other

1:11:58

film

1:11:59

but there's a new owner and you'll be

1:12:00

hearing a lot more about that soon

1:12:02

but uh like it'll just there's there's

1:12:04

stuff that you'll be hearing about

1:12:05

skinwalker ranching because there's a

1:12:07

new owner anyway the whole point of this

1:12:10

you know insertion here is just that

1:12:12

that document kind of validates a lot of

1:12:15

this idea bob just said that they make a

1:12:18

little progress then they can't go

1:12:20

anywhere they tuck it away and then they

1:12:22

bring it back out you know 10 years

1:12:24

later and start working on it

1:12:26

what is the limiting factor i think bob

1:12:27

should speak on this but it's the

1:12:29

material science

1:12:30

yeah it's really where physics is so i i

1:12:33

can i can see them doing that i mean i

1:12:35

didn't have any

1:12:36

uh

1:12:37

information on that but i think what you

1:12:40

know george uncovered is probably

1:12:41

accurate that uh you know we try and do

1:12:44

what we can and once we reach a

1:12:46

roadblock on we really can't figure it

1:12:48

out it's just friggin wait put the thing

1:12:51

away wait for science to catch up and

1:12:54

you know a decade later let's take the

1:12:55

project out again and see all right now

1:12:57

where can we go but there's got to be

1:12:59

someone who remains informed right oh

1:13:02

yeah you've got your scientists like you

1:13:04

and barry you got your people that you

1:13:06

compartmentalize you got these people

1:13:07

working on yeah there has to be some

1:13:09

people right that know everything you've

1:13:11

got security and then someone's going to

1:13:14

be on the outside saying hey we need

1:13:16

people to guard this building don't let

1:13:17

anybody in for ten years i think i think

1:13:19

a lot of that is private industry and i

1:13:22

think that's how they keep it yeah i

1:13:23

think that's how they literally because

1:13:24

the government is just so leaky i think

1:13:27

that's kind of what they're doing that's

1:13:29

what the document kind of proves you

1:13:30

just articulated that that um it is in

1:13:33

control private industry what private

1:13:35

industry

1:13:36

some aerospace company something i don't

1:13:38

know yeah they wouldn't they would the

1:13:39

guy with the admiral wouldn't name it in

1:13:40

the car right in the conversation right

1:13:43

so

1:13:43

they

1:13:44

still have these things supposedly

1:13:48

i would guess i mean i don't have any

1:13:50

information have you ever asked anyone

1:13:53

that has any inkling of any idea of

1:13:57

where they got them or how they got them

1:14:00

no but um

1:14:01

something must have been said to me um

1:14:05

from barry

1:14:06

and but i i it was just too long ago and

1:14:09

i i can't quite remember what was said

1:14:10

but it

1:14:11

it just left a seat in my mind i think

1:14:14

at least one of them was part of an

1:14:15

archaeological dig

1:14:18

so

1:14:19

it's old

1:14:20

something one at least one of them is

1:14:22

old i don't know if it was the one i

1:14:23

worked on but i remember

1:14:25

something to do with an archaeological

1:14:27

dig whoa so that's uh

1:14:30

that means it's not just old it's

1:14:31

ancient that'd be a great stephen

1:14:33

spielberg movie yeah right

1:14:35

[Laughter]

1:14:37

as all of it would yeah that took me out

1:14:38

when he said that for the first time

1:14:40

yeah that's a freak out right there just

1:14:42

a couple of dudes with some brushes

1:14:44

looking for a tyrannosaurus rex bone and

1:14:46

metal and when did they find it you know

1:14:49

that they have nine of them well and how

1:14:51

could we have not heard about that what

1:14:53

about the guys with the brushes how

1:14:55

could you uncover something like that

1:14:57

and joe's newspaper at home does i mean

1:14:59

they said it on that first day oh you

1:15:01

mean the roswell yeah yeah yeah you told

1:15:03

me yeah yeah i have a cover what is this

1:15:05

here james it's the document but i had

1:15:07

to do some digging to find it yes it's

1:15:09

just kind of

1:15:10

yeah so this is where they meet at egng

1:15:12

and this is admiral wilson and there's a

1:15:14

lot more coming out now i want to be

1:15:15

clear george didn't put this out he

1:15:17

didn't

1:15:18

leak this out to anybody this is i can

1:15:20

tell you how i recorded this this

1:15:22

conversation so this was an employee

1:15:24

of at the time robert bigelow and this

1:15:26

is in 2002 right do you remember when he

1:15:28

had that government contract called

1:15:30

awesap the world all knows about now and

1:15:32

he had nids that studied the ranch so

1:15:33

that 22 million everybody is saying it

1:15:35

was for atip um advanced aerospace

1:15:38

threat identification program

1:15:40

the 22 million dollars was for ossap

1:15:43

that was pushed through through congress

1:15:45

three congressmen right an astronaut it

1:15:48

was pushed through

1:15:49

and that's what that 22 million dollars

1:15:51

by the way they spend more money on

1:15:52

viagra every year than they do studying

1:15:54

ufos if it was just this program which i

1:15:56

think is funny but they probably make a

1:15:57

lot more money from fragrance they

1:15:59

probably do ufos well you never know how

1:16:01

it seeds into population but anyway this

1:16:03

program

1:16:04

uh this is what was the mother program

1:16:06

so it it got the 22 million and really

1:16:09

it was to study skinwalker ranch oddly

1:16:11

enough that 22 million all was inspired

1:16:14

by the phenomenon they were seeing at

1:16:15

skinwalker ranch because the scientists

1:16:18

they're seeing vehicles come through

1:16:20

like a space in the sky yeah we went

1:16:23

there i went through it yeah we

1:16:25

interviewed

1:16:27

a bunch of people that seemed full of

1:16:28

[ __ ] but a couple that didn't but it's

1:16:30

very very interesting totally any

1:16:32

there's but if you look i spent a lot of

1:16:33

time in the area i'm not talking about

1:16:35

those stories i'm saying there were

1:16:36

scientists hired by the government right

1:16:39

through bigelow to study the ranch

1:16:40

because they thought it was important

1:16:42

and you know whatever whatever the point

1:16:44

is that 22 million was to study that

1:16:46

then we have atip which is like an

1:16:48

auxiliary kind of program of military

1:16:50

settings like commander framers and that

1:16:52

sort of thing this document is just one

1:16:55

of those things that has now come

1:16:57

forward that through the bigelow studies

1:16:59

it was government funded and then it was

1:17:01

personally funded and then government

1:17:03

funded

1:17:04

it's just one of those things that kind

1:17:06

of shakes you because you got this

1:17:08

military guy who can't get access

1:17:11

because of the private industry that's

1:17:12

holding these

1:17:14

non-terrestrial materials that they

1:17:16

can't study it so that's the the claim

1:17:18

right now give it some time let people

1:17:21

dig more into this

1:17:22

it's fascinating man

1:17:24

so

1:17:25

you are

1:17:28

essentially

1:17:29

you're you're

1:17:30

you're kicked out right you're you're

1:17:32

out of the this program you can't work

1:17:34

with these crafts anymore and

1:17:37

do they give you any threats do they

1:17:40

tell you what you have to do from here

1:17:42

on out

1:17:43

yeah well i mean the way it ended was

1:17:47

um i told george knapp

1:17:49

all this stuff and um you know he said

1:17:52

well let's just get it on tape should

1:17:53

something happen at least we have a

1:17:55

record of it and um i don't remember

1:17:58

what the emphasis was but um at some

1:18:01

point george wanted to air it and he

1:18:03

said

1:18:04

you know you make the call on it

1:18:07

and look if at any point you change your

1:18:09

mind

1:18:10

we won't air it and it came down to the

1:18:13

day where george wants to put her on the

1:18:15

five o'clock news he said hey this is

1:18:16

important stuff people have to know

1:18:18

about it and i thought it was too either

1:18:21

it's kind of a crime i know you've got

1:18:22

to keep the technology secret but you

1:18:24

can't not tell everybody that this stuff

1:18:27

is going on that we have you know actual

1:18:30

hardware from another civilization it's

1:18:32

a big [ __ ] deal you know probably the

1:18:34

biggest one there ever was

1:18:36

and um

1:18:38

george

1:18:40

said you know today's the day we got to

1:18:42

put it on the news or something to that

1:18:44

effect and when it came

1:18:45

right down to the time to air it i

1:18:47

changed my mind and i said

1:18:50

we're not doing it

1:18:51

and that's what turned into the famous

1:18:53

wrestling match between me and george

1:18:56

trying to get the tape but he won

1:18:57

because he was a bigger guy so he

1:19:00

actually physically wrestled well i

1:19:01

think it was more of a pulling match we

1:19:03

were i don't think we ever hit the

1:19:04

ground but

1:19:06

he got the tape he put it in the player

1:19:08

and boom five o'clock news was on and

1:19:10

then um

1:19:11

i got a call after that and they said it

1:19:13

was from dennis he said you have any

1:19:15

idea what we're gonna do to you now and

1:19:17

he hung up the phone that was the last

1:19:19

communication i had with him

1:19:22

and what has happened to you since then

1:19:24

after that

1:19:29

a lot of people i've known

1:19:32

either were

1:19:34

audited by the irs people had anybody i

1:19:37

know that had clearances that worked in

1:19:39

secure programs had the clearances

1:19:41

pulled one of them uh

1:19:44

friendly

1:19:45

one of mine that jeremy knows he's going

1:19:47

on camera with me soon he'll tell the

1:19:49

story now that he's out of work up there

1:19:51

he was working up at the tonopah test

1:19:53

range waiting for his clearance to come

1:19:55

through and you know they they pulled

1:19:57

that it would it became it's like if

1:19:59

they can't get the person that's

1:20:01

involved they just create a problem for

1:20:04

everybody that surrounds them and so i

1:20:07

mean the way it turns out it hurt a lot

1:20:09

of people's lives that i was connected

1:20:11

to

1:20:12

and that's an effective way of shutting

1:20:15

someone up did you feel that by coming

1:20:17

forward and going public they couldn't

1:20:19

just snuff you out that was i mean

1:20:21

that's what i was told and george and

1:20:22

everybody you know said that you got oh

1:20:24

it's you know it's public there's you

1:20:26

know no one will touch you and i i you

1:20:28

know i i fell for it um

1:20:32

and i i wish you didn't yeah sometimes

1:20:36

sometimes when it's just over stress and

1:20:37

people are camping on your lawn yeah but

1:20:40

it's this is gonna make things worse

1:20:42

doing this no this is gonna make things

1:20:44

better i was trying to tell them how is

1:20:47

this gonna make things better because

1:20:48

you're getting a real chance to explain

1:20:50

yourself in a way that's going to

1:20:53

make people who are not only work in the

1:20:56

government people that are

1:20:58

police officers and firefighters and

1:21:00

first responders and doctors and

1:21:02

scientists they're going to empathize

1:21:04

emphasize

1:21:06

empathize and and empathize with

1:21:10

what it must be like to be a person like

1:21:12

you in your 20s who gets thrust into

1:21:15

this world unknowingly

1:21:18

and confronted with

1:21:20

one of the most if not the most

1:21:22

important discovery in the history of

1:21:25

human beings the big question

1:21:28

are we alone it's the number one

1:21:30

question there's two questions right

1:21:32

what happens when we die and are we

1:21:34

alone those are the two big questions

1:21:36

right

1:21:37

and if we're not alone and someone knows

1:21:40

we're not alone and these some people

1:21:43

who know we're not alone are these

1:21:45

bungling

1:21:47

sort of even if they weren't it's a

1:21:49

crime that they're not telling the rest

1:21:52

of us but i mean i don't mean bungling

1:21:54

in terms they're incompetent i mean they

1:21:56

can't be competent it seems to me to

1:21:58

what you're describing that no one can

1:22:00

be competent with this technology

1:22:02

like the victoria victorian era scholars

1:22:05

analyzing some sort of a nuclear reactor

1:22:08

there's there's no way why do you think

1:22:10

beyond that why do you think they're not

1:22:11

telling us let's just make an assumption

1:22:12

that this is true right now

1:22:14

why do you think that they're not

1:22:17

telling us that our government doesn't

1:22:18

tell us what's your best well let me put

1:22:20

it into

1:22:21

what would you do if i'm the president

1:22:24

okay and i get this information what do

1:22:26

i do with this what do i do with this

1:22:27

there's something that we don't know

1:22:29

there's something we don't understand

1:22:31

there's something that came from another

1:22:32

world we got it tucked away in the

1:22:34

mountains and uh just wanted you guys to

1:22:35

know about it hey sleep tight hey

1:22:37

american motto's on tonight who do you

1:22:39

think's going to win yeah who's going to

1:22:40

win america

1:22:44

one is uncertainty and the other one is

1:22:46

what bob and i have talked about a lot

1:22:47

absolutely not knowing what to tell

1:22:50

people because you don't really

1:22:51

understand it yourself even though

1:22:52

you've got what do you say if you want

1:22:54

to run a government you want to get

1:22:55

people to pay their taxes but there's

1:22:56

something else yeah

1:22:58

what do you say so you have these

1:22:59

objects fine with impunity right and you

1:23:01

that you have something else well not

1:23:02

only that what can you say like how much

1:23:05

do you really know i think it's mainly

1:23:06

the technology yeah they just want to

1:23:08

keep the technology secret because if

1:23:10

there's

1:23:11

yeah whoever gets this dude yeah

1:23:14

you you control the where you become you

1:23:16

literally become invincible once you

1:23:18

master the technology you can't you

1:23:20

cannot penetrate a field like that so

1:23:23

imagine that's i know it's all science

1:23:25

fiction but science fiction turns into

1:23:27

science fact if you have

1:23:29

real force fields around aircraft and

1:23:31

battleships

1:23:33

you you win

1:23:34

you win you can force your will upon

1:23:36

anybody and uh

1:23:38

like i said there's so much more to the

1:23:40

story when i was first there

1:23:42

um

1:23:43

there were russian scientists at s4 that

1:23:46

was this was early on in the project so

1:23:48

this was before operation paper clip

1:23:50

became public as well right so i would

1:23:51

imagine that was i don't know what the

1:23:53

date yeah when was that when did was

1:23:55

that

1:23:56

98 i think 98 yeah yeah i don't know the

1:23:58

dates on it so it's roughly 10 years

1:24:00

later operation paperclip becomes

1:24:02

freedom of information actually it's

1:24:04

about russia not germany he's not a

1:24:06

russian scientist yeah but i mean

1:24:08

russian scientists a lot of them came

1:24:09

from germany a lot of those those rocket

1:24:12

scientists that work with nasa they all

1:24:14

came from nazi scientists got it so some

1:24:16

russians got some of them i just know

1:24:18

that and at some point there was intense

1:24:20

cooperation with even exchanging some

1:24:23

ideas on nuclear weapons and you know

1:24:26

emp tests and stuff things we would

1:24:28

never have discussed with them but at

1:24:29

the same time it was in the late 80s uh

1:24:32

they were involved and actually in the

1:24:35

area at s4 with us so you got to

1:24:38

communicate with these guys or you saw

1:24:39

them no i knew they were there barry

1:24:41

barry would talk about the commies that

1:24:42

were there the communities the commies

1:24:45

and um that was back when they were the

1:24:47

commies

1:24:50

and

1:24:52

at some point it wasn't our group but at

1:24:55

some point there was a big discovery

1:24:57

made

1:24:58

and this did not happen when i was there

1:25:01

it happened in between my trips to there

1:25:03

and after that apparently they decided

1:25:05

it was just too cool to share with

1:25:07

anybody and the russians were never

1:25:09

allowed back on the base after that but

1:25:11

you don't know what that discovery was

1:25:12

no no like i said it wasn't my group so

1:25:14

one of the other groups really found out

1:25:17

something

1:25:18

but the you know

1:25:20

in typical american fashion is all right

1:25:22

this is ours you guys get the hell out

1:25:23

of here was there any inkling that any

1:25:26

other government had something similar

1:25:29

no no nothing that i had heard see that

1:25:31

was the thing that always freaked me out

1:25:33

was why if if something was so superior

1:25:36

to human beings it's almost like

1:25:38

visiting an ant colony like why would

1:25:40

you go to the queen i don't give a [ __ ]

1:25:41

who the queen is i'm a human i'm so

1:25:44

superior to ants i don't care who you

1:25:45

have running your hive i'm just gonna

1:25:47

study it i think it's who got it who got

1:25:50

it look at the

1:25:51

you know rocket technology in germany

1:25:53

but they got nine of them

1:25:55

yeah that doesn't make sense to me

1:25:57

either so they were either in the same

1:26:00

area

1:26:01

or you know one had clues to where

1:26:03

others were

1:26:04

i mean i don't know you you have to fill

1:26:06

that in there but you're right i mean

1:26:08

nine of them that's a that's a a big dig

1:26:11

if it was archaeological well one of the

1:26:13

more recent

1:26:14

recent sightings and the these

1:26:17

discussions that have been coming out

1:26:18

recently from air force pilots and navy

1:26:21

pilots they've been talking about things

1:26:22

happening in the ocean

1:26:24

and that that something

1:26:25

go literally goes into the water or

1:26:28

something maybe below the surface

1:26:29

thinking about water 2004 tic tac nimitz

1:26:31

case so that's when george knapp and i

1:26:33

broke on the radio twice before the new

1:26:35

york times so i know this one really

1:26:36

well commander fravor and those pilots

1:26:38

there was

1:26:40

a disturbance on the surface of the

1:26:42

water

1:26:43

commander fravor visually saw what

1:26:45

looked like similar to across some

1:26:48

object so it's like as if you have some

1:26:50

like coral under the water and you've

1:26:51

got it's breaking over right the tic tac

1:26:54

is doing this crazy maneuver that defies

1:26:56

it's a gravity-propelled system they saw

1:26:58

it in the sky before they saw in the

1:26:59

water right yeah so there was um there

1:27:02

were radar that was picking this these

1:27:03

things coming down from 80 000 feet

1:27:05

dropping to 50 feet in less than a

1:27:07

second this is it jamie what is this

1:27:09

this is actually on the news today there

1:27:10

was a briefing so a lot of people get

1:27:12

this confused not this one then either

1:27:14

no so

1:27:15

that is called the gimbal so there's

1:27:17

three videos released by the pentagon

1:27:19

that are all active play and keep the

1:27:21

volume off

1:27:23

i i would i would really just pay

1:27:24

attention to the source video so you've

1:27:26

got the tic tac which is this object the

1:27:28

commander fravor saw another pilot

1:27:30

filmed it with a flir pod and it goes

1:27:33

but this one you see is really important

1:27:35

to bob's story the gimbal craft it's

1:27:38

been recently analyzed it's fleer not

1:27:41

only does it it's definitive that it's

1:27:44

not a conventional anything by the by

1:27:46

its movements but there's a pocket of

1:27:48

cold air

1:27:49

around a propulsion source

1:27:52

so this object by the way sat stationary

1:27:55

for days if not weeks it sat stationary

1:27:58

yeah they found it 11 hours later and

1:28:00

they were saying there's no way this

1:28:01

thing using that kind of energy to go

1:28:03

that fast could just hover the amount of

1:28:05

time and by the way you're seeing a very

1:28:08

small part of what happened that day

1:28:10

this object was not alone

1:28:12

and so hopefully that information comes

1:28:14

out and we can i mean i wish we had

1:28:16

video of it i'm sure we'd all want to

1:28:18

see it

1:28:19

but that's called the gimbal that was

1:28:21

east coast

1:28:22

right 2015.

1:28:24

west coast 2004 was the tic tac

1:28:27

the disturbance on the water commander

1:28:29

fraber believes there was something

1:28:31

under that water that was causing that

1:28:33

disturbance when the tic tac was coming

1:28:34

around to doing it

1:28:35

with inside the the people that are

1:28:37

studying this they're thinking maybe the

1:28:39

tic tac system was causing the

1:28:41

disturbance

1:28:42

but the uso unidentified submerged

1:28:45

object that he visually saw

1:28:48

uh the whole interesting thing about

1:28:49

that is i would love bob to describe it

1:28:52

is why it doesn't matter if these craft

1:28:54

are in

1:28:55

space

1:28:56

air or water why doesn't it matter i

1:28:58

love when he talks about this [ __ ]

1:29:00

well first of all commander fravor was

1:29:02

the f-18 pilot off the nimitz that was

1:29:05

sent out to find out what this stuff is

1:29:07

but and it wasn't just i got a chance to

1:29:10

talk to him recently and it wasn't just

1:29:13

a radar image i mean commander fravor

1:29:15

had eyes on it for over five minutes

1:29:18

watching this thing as four other pilots

1:29:21

did so this wasn't a radar blip or

1:29:23

anything i mean these guys were watching

1:29:24

this thing but

1:29:27

you know one of the things i think in

1:29:29

the gimbal video

1:29:31

the way the craft that we worked on

1:29:34

flies

1:29:36

is it doesn't fly like

1:29:39

a conventional aircraft does and it

1:29:41

doesn't fly like a flying saucer with in

1:29:43

a 1950s movie it flies belly first

1:29:47

i mean it may set down conventionally

1:29:50

but it always rotates it does a role

1:29:53

maneuver puts its belly towards the

1:29:55

target and then moves away so it's like

1:29:57

a car flying with the wheels forward

1:30:00

right

1:30:00

right

1:30:01

i mean it may lift land on the wheels

1:30:03

but at some point when it wants to leave

1:30:05

flips flips up points the wheels where

1:30:07

it wants to go and takes off and the

1:30:09

gimbal video you can see the craft do

1:30:12

the roll maneuver and uh

1:30:14

it's really interesting it behaves

1:30:15

exactly like the crafts that i worked on

1:30:18

so

1:30:19

much like we have different shaped

1:30:21

aircrafts and fighter jets and cars they

1:30:24

probably have different shapes of these

1:30:27

objects that operate under similar

1:30:29

principles

1:30:30

right but they all have the same power

1:30:33

source they all have the same power

1:30:34

source and we're also dealing with

1:30:36

if you think about

1:30:38

the laws of technological progression

1:30:41

you know you think of moore's law and

1:30:43

you think of how things accelerate

1:30:46

you've got to think that if this

1:30:47

civilization is who knows how many years

1:30:50

more advanced than we are

1:30:52

if not even years i mean i mean we're

1:30:54

thinking about in terms of conventional

1:30:56

terms right the way the way we look at

1:30:57

the world i mean they meet they might be

1:31:00

just

1:31:01

superior in terms of their intellect

1:31:03

they've got to be maybe maybe we don't

1:31:05

know right well the only reason i

1:31:07

i say that is because

1:31:11

look everyone doesn't necessarily start

1:31:13

at a steam engine right and go to an

1:31:15

internal combustion engine and then you

1:31:18

know electric power nuclear power and go

1:31:20

up the ladder that we right come on um

1:31:22

you know the binary if the stuff is true

1:31:24

about the origin and the binary star

1:31:26

system and they have heavier elements

1:31:28

that we don't have and this element

1:31:30

stable element 115 is a naturally

1:31:32

occurring material

1:31:34

maybe that's the first thing they

1:31:36

started experimenting with and the

1:31:38

version of their steam engine their

1:31:39

first product was something that

1:31:42

operated like this and actually when

1:31:44

they came to earth to look around or you

1:31:46

know whatever they were amazed at the

1:31:48

stuff we were doing these guys burned

1:31:50

stuff and squirted out the back to go

1:31:51

forward so right um right you know who

1:31:54

says they follow any kind of normal

1:31:56

progression like that my my thought was

1:31:58

if you went back to the 1400s and then

1:32:01

you went from 1400 to 1500 you're not

1:32:04

going to see that much of a difference

1:32:05

technologically right if you go from

1:32:08

2000 to 3000 i assume there's going to

1:32:11

be a radical change right well the yeah

1:32:13

the delta the rate of change is is

1:32:16

magnificently higher than it used to be

1:32:19

right so if you think about what they

1:32:22

had in 1988 and you think about what

1:32:25

they probably have in 2019

1:32:28

just

1:32:30

logically seems like they would advance

1:32:32

i would think so

1:32:34

the only

1:32:35

question is like

1:32:36

are they living

1:32:38

is that a living thing in terms of like

1:32:40

a biological thing

1:32:42

or are they some sort of an artificially

1:32:45

created creation like we are working on

1:32:47

right now i mean we're in the middle of

1:32:49

working on artificial reality artificial

1:32:52

beings sentient beings artificial

1:32:54

intelligence there's cons silicon based

1:32:56

life forms that they're essentially

1:32:57

trying to create boston dynamic or was

1:33:00

it boston dynamics of the company

1:33:02

robots yeah you can make machines out of

1:33:04

flesh right so a cyborg or cybernetic

1:33:06

organism is just that you know that's

1:33:08

what a lot of people think those like

1:33:09

gray things are you know that people

1:33:11

call the grays yeah it's like they were

1:33:13

like they're machines printed from flash

1:33:16

so what you're saying is like well they

1:33:18

could just be no synthetic

1:33:20

they don't even need to be you know

1:33:22

machines well they seem to have no sex

1:33:24

organs the way they're described by

1:33:25

people that have had interactions with

1:33:27

them assuming these people aren't liars

1:33:28

right or crazy or whatever right that

1:33:31

they have no sex organs and that they

1:33:34

don't seem to have any muscle that is

1:33:36

almost like a frame right and they have

1:33:38

enormous heads i mean if you look at

1:33:42

australopithecus or depictions of you

1:33:45

know ancient hominids and then you go to

1:33:47

human beings one of the things you see

1:33:48

is bigger heads and weaker bodies well

1:33:50

you see a clear progression of evolution

1:33:53

too where for something like that i

1:33:55

would lean towards a synthetic organism

1:33:58

because it looks like it was made for a

1:34:00

specific task there was no reproductive

1:34:02

organs so i mean that almost kind of

1:34:04

leaves out any kind of you know physical

1:34:06

evolution right well that's also our

1:34:08

bottleneck right our bottleneck is our

1:34:10

biological imperative the the need to

1:34:13

breed emotions fear anxiety all these

1:34:16

different things that exist in order to

1:34:19

force us into making sure we reproduce i

1:34:22

mean that's essentially there's human

1:34:24

reward systems that aren't necessary

1:34:26

once they can figure out a way to make

1:34:28

some sort of sentient artificial life

1:34:31

some sort of thing that doesn't have

1:34:33

these biological limitations that we

1:34:34

have by the way these craft all these

1:34:36

different kinds have been reported

1:34:38

because it was confusing i always

1:34:39

thought of flying saucers what i heard

1:34:40

bob lazar talk about flying saucer right

1:34:43

but if you look back in history people

1:34:44

have always reported the weirdest shapes

1:34:46

like none of them are alike you know

1:34:49

there are the saucers but you got cigar

1:34:51

shaped you got you know the top hat

1:34:53

shape you have orbs why maybe they're

1:34:56

serving different purposes they're doing

1:34:57

different things like we'd use different

1:34:59

tools and i want to be clear the reason

1:35:01

i know that memo is real is because i

1:35:03

spent a lot of time with dr edgar

1:35:05

mitchell six man to walk on the moon

1:35:07

last guy to film him before he died

1:35:09

right

1:35:10

that's how i know i don't want any

1:35:11

journalists thinking i got it from

1:35:13

anywhere else i know because of dr

1:35:14

mitchell and he said the same thing

1:35:16

maybe these things are

1:35:18

performing different tasks you know and

1:35:21

that's what i seem if you if you think

1:35:22

about what an alien is in terms of our

1:35:25

our

1:35:26

the sort of iconic image of an alien

1:35:28

like the steven spielberg closing cows

1:35:30

are the third time the third kind alien

1:35:33

they seem like

1:35:35

what we'd assume a human being would

1:35:37

eventually become right

1:35:39

and if these things are tiny human

1:35:41

beings are smaller than they've ever

1:35:42

been before they're weaker than they've

1:35:43

ever been before and there seems to be a

1:35:45

trend in that direction and this trend

1:35:48

seems to be amplified by our

1:35:50

technological progression

1:35:52

there our

1:35:53

lack of need for muscle strength and our

1:35:55

lack of need for violence and we're

1:35:57

moving in a society to try to get away

1:36:00

from all the things that we think are

1:36:01

abhorrent about human beings and the

1:36:03

terrible behaviors that we have if we

1:36:06

one day do give birth to some sort of an

1:36:10

artificial being like marshall mcluhan's

1:36:13

uh

1:36:14

quote we are the sex organs of the

1:36:16

machine world

1:36:18

you know that one day okay i'll buy this

1:36:20

yeah mcloone was brilliant and that that

1:36:23

quote has always been one of my

1:36:24

favorites because okay what are we doing

1:36:26

when we're constantly technologically

1:36:28

innovating we're constantly looking for

1:36:30

faster cars better computers bigger

1:36:32

screens faster more resolution more

1:36:35

pixels more this more that higher

1:36:36

bandwidth 5g 10g right what are we doing

1:36:39

we're moving into this in this if you

1:36:41

just follow it objectively stay stand

1:36:43

back don't attach yourself or your

1:36:45

civilization your culture to it and look

1:36:47

at what it is we're moving

1:36:49

a hundred percent towards technological

1:36:52

innovation if you looked at this species

1:36:54

from afar and if you weren't a part of

1:36:56

it you would say what does this species

1:36:57

do oh they make things they make things

1:37:00

better every year beehives are the same

1:37:02

[ __ ] thing that you see 10 years ago

1:37:04

you go by you see a beehive it's amazing

1:37:05

it's cool but they're the same [ __ ]

1:37:07

thing they figured out how to do it they

1:37:08

make a beehive right we don't do that we

1:37:11

make better things what would you

1:37:12

constantly and at some point i think

1:37:14

that technology is going to fuse with us

1:37:16

yes and we're going to become it's

1:37:17

already happening yeah elon musk talked

1:37:19

about it on my podcast that we are

1:37:21

cyborgs you just carry it in your pocket

1:37:22

it's a phone it answers any question you

1:37:24

want you can talk to it it'll give you

1:37:26

the answers the answers instantaneously

1:37:28

it navigates you it has all your phone

1:37:31

numbers and it has all your contacts you

1:37:32

can get a hold of people people

1:37:33

listening to you through it it's

1:37:35

connecting us in ways even involuntarily

1:37:37

haptics that kind of thing yeah it's

1:37:39

also getting on your wrist how many

1:37:40

people have eye watches apple watches

1:37:43

right and that's only because we can't

1:37:45

integrate them yet but you know that

1:37:47

point is 100

1:37:48

yeah i didn't joke about it last night

1:37:50

but i have a bit about it that i do

1:37:51

about the the integration between humans

1:37:53

and technology that's what would you do

1:37:55

if you were a hyper intelligence right

1:37:58

would you do the work yourself or would

1:37:59

you create some cool things called like

1:38:01

humans to do it for you would you create

1:38:03

things that are cybernetic organisms to

1:38:05

come in with machines and do it for you

1:38:07

if you're a hyper intelligence that has

1:38:09

kind of changed like you've described

1:38:11

you'd probably create workers right well

1:38:13

that's a vast conspiracy theory i'm not

1:38:16

talking about conspiracy but it is a

1:38:17

kind of a conspiracy i'm asking you well

1:38:19

i mean i don't think it's necessarily

1:38:21

that i mean you could look at it that

1:38:23

way but that is the way a conspiracy

1:38:25

theorist would look at it the way i

1:38:26

would look at it is like there's

1:38:27

obviously a progression going on a

1:38:29

biological progression there's some sort

1:38:31

of an integration with technology

1:38:33

there's some sort of imperative this

1:38:35

need for technological innovation it's

1:38:37

inescapable everyone has it we and i

1:38:39

think it's attached to materialism in

1:38:41

some sort of a strange way because so

1:38:43

many people work so hard to get new

1:38:45

things and like god that seems so

1:38:47

illogical and preposterous and it makes

1:38:49

people unhappy and depression's on the

1:38:50

rise but nobody seems to be able to stop

1:38:52

it like why is that well maybe it's

1:38:54

because we are the

1:38:57

caterpillars that give birth to the

1:38:59

butterfly maybe that's what we're doing

1:39:02

very well what our job is to do is to

1:39:04

make some sort of a cocoon and we don't

1:39:06

even know we're doing it while we're

1:39:08

doing it do you think a caterpillar is

1:39:10

well hey caterpillar what are you doing

1:39:11

man just i'm doing my thing it's my job

1:39:14

i have to make a cocoon then become like

1:39:15

a body this could be a natural part of

1:39:17

evolution it could be that we're just

1:39:18

supposed to do this exactly and make the

1:39:20

jump to

1:39:21

some sort of mechanized right

1:39:24

yeah non-biological an orangutan that is

1:39:27

uh fishing with a spear

1:39:30

no they they've figured out how to fish

1:39:32

with spears there's

1:39:34

uh there's um

1:39:36

primatologists

1:39:37

without somebody showing them how to

1:39:39

fish no they've imitated human beings

1:39:41

doing it and now they do it but they do

1:39:43

it independently they're not trained

1:39:45

orangutans they're wild around look at

1:39:47

that

1:39:48

there's a wild rice okay that's

1:39:50

impressive very impressive well there's

1:39:53

these primatologists i guess you would

1:39:54

call them primatologists that's a term

1:39:56

that's a great biologist biologists that

1:39:58

believe that

1:40:00

monkeys and chimps

1:40:02

and some of the great apes are moving

1:40:04

into the stone age that they've

1:40:06

currently entered the stone age like

1:40:08

they're not staying what they were a

1:40:10

hundred thousand years ago or five

1:40:12

hundred thousand years ago but they're

1:40:14

actively using tools and they're

1:40:16

experimenting with different different

1:40:17

ways to use those tools and then they're

1:40:19

making tools out of stone they're making

1:40:21

tools out of sticks and they're they're

1:40:23

using them

1:40:24

well this might just be what happens

1:40:27

this might just be what happens

1:40:30

i mean why else why would why the [ __ ]

1:40:32

we work so hard i mean i i was i was

1:40:34

driving to la this morning um i had a

1:40:36

doctor's appointment so i was on the 405

1:40:38

at uh eight in the morning like jesus

1:40:40

christ like this is so crazy when you're

1:40:43

in the 405 in l.a at eight o'clock in

1:40:44

the morning you see literally a million

1:40:46

cars

1:40:47

and this is everywhere you go as people

1:40:49

but and also i'm in a tesla so i have it

1:40:52

on autopilot so i'm there sitting i'm

1:40:54

listening to a podcast i barely have my

1:40:56

hand on the wheel i'm not touching [ __ ]

1:40:58

this car's driving me along i'm not even

1:41:00

doing anything i'm just i'm just hanging

1:41:02

out it's so much less stressful by the

1:41:04

way to do that that way right so it

1:41:06

encourages you to innovate it encourages

1:41:08

you to embrace this new technology i got

1:41:11

this giant screen it's showing me the

1:41:12

navigation in front of me i'll be there

1:41:15

five minutes early excellent and i'm

1:41:17

listening to a podcast wirelessly it's

1:41:19

bluetooth screen streaming from my phone

1:41:22

and i pulled that podcast which came out

1:41:24

today out of the [ __ ] sky and i'm

1:41:26

listening to it and i'm all comfortable

1:41:28

in my nice little car just driving on my

1:41:30

way to the doctor's office this is

1:41:31

irresistible stuff yeah yeah different

1:41:33

than your walkman yeah you know that can

1:41:35

be irresistible

1:41:37

it is a resistance it's frighteningly

1:41:38

irresistible but is it frightening i

1:41:40

mean if you were a monkey right if you

1:41:42

were um an australiopithecus would you

1:41:44

go man i don't want to [ __ ] be a

1:41:46

person i live in a house that's [ __ ]

1:41:48

i like just swinging around on trees i

1:41:50

like uh running from jaguars this is

1:41:52

life guys life is running from

1:41:54

crocodiles it's not living in a [ __ ]

1:41:56

suburban there's probably some that are

1:41:57

like that yeah i don't think so i think

1:41:59

i think

1:42:00

when it comes we're going to embrace it

1:42:02

we're going to embrace it the same way

1:42:03

you embrace cell phones the same way

1:42:05

embrace television there's going to be a

1:42:07

few holdouts i don't even have an email

1:42:08

address man those are those there's a

1:42:10

few and far between the good luck with

1:42:12

that [ __ ] face go move to the woods ted

1:42:14

kaczynski yeah i was just going to throw

1:42:16

ted's against

1:42:17

ted kaczynski was right this is

1:42:18

something that i think about sometimes

1:42:20

when i get really high that ted

1:42:22

kaczynski was a part of the harvard lsd

1:42:25

studies this has been proven ted

1:42:26

kaczynski they cooked his [ __ ] brain

1:42:29

when he was at harvard and then when he

1:42:30

went over to berkeley and became a

1:42:32

professor his goal was to make enough

1:42:33

money so that he could

1:42:35

implement this program and live in the

1:42:37

woods and then write his manifesto and

1:42:39

start killing people that were involved

1:42:41

in propagating technology he was

1:42:43

expunged from the harvard uh logs by the

1:42:46

way this is something my friend just

1:42:47

called me about so there's like this uh

1:42:50

private library and they used to print

1:42:52

people's names whenever they were part

1:42:54

of a university and he was one of a

1:42:55

handful of people that were expunged

1:42:58

from it i want to jump back to the one

1:43:00

thing joe

1:43:01

i want to be very careful with that word

1:43:02

conspiracy theorist

1:43:04

what i was what i was saying to you was

1:43:06

we we terraform our earth right

1:43:08

we terraform we change the environment

1:43:10

we do all this innovation

1:43:12

what is stopping us from thinking that

1:43:14

that's not being done i'm not saying it

1:43:16

is i'm saying what's stopping us from

1:43:18

thinking that that's being done on a

1:43:20

much bigger level on a cosmic level you

1:43:22

mean like aliens coming down doing that

1:43:24

to humans i'm telling you that there is

1:43:26

something here that's there's a fact you

1:43:28

know there's something there a craft

1:43:30

they're here they're not ours they're

1:43:31

here so the question is

1:43:34

what is that about and i'm just looking

1:43:35

at what we do with what you're

1:43:37

describing with technology

1:43:39

i think it's much more likely that the

1:43:41

same way we observe chimps and we

1:43:43

observed that they are now in the stone

1:43:45

age that they're observing us and that

1:43:47

they're recognizing that there is a

1:43:49

pattern that there is uh there's steps

1:43:51

that happen i mean carl sagan talked

1:43:53

about the different levels of

1:43:54

civilization and that you know if we

1:43:56

don't get past certain levels we're

1:43:58

never going to reach this i mean we're

1:44:00

in type 1 civilization we're going to

1:44:01

stay at type zero well we're in this

1:44:03

warring

1:44:04

polluting yeah pillaging we're awesome

1:44:07

civilizations

1:44:08

are awesome it's like well we're awesome

1:44:10

in a lot of ways you know but in that

1:44:12

way we're not well yeah we're we're

1:44:14

children that have immense power that we

1:44:16

didn't really the other thing is you're

1:44:17

using the immense power that other

1:44:20

people have created right i mean even

1:44:22

when you're driving a car you're

1:44:23

stomping on the gas like whew you didn't

1:44:25

invent the [ __ ] engine you didn't

1:44:27

invent tires there's all these things

1:44:29

that were in involved in the creation of

1:44:31

this thing that is

1:44:33

really outside of your

1:44:34

[Music]

1:44:35

grasp of understanding but yet you have

1:44:38

the ability to use it like a person with

1:44:39

a gun i'm just gonna bang bang bang

1:44:41

people you don't you didn't invent a gun

1:44:43

so like you've you've without the

1:44:45

intellect to craft and engineer and and

1:44:49

and manifest these creations you just

1:44:52

have access to them because you have

1:44:53

paper or you have bitcoin or you have

1:44:55

whatever the [ __ ] you're using using a

1:44:56

credit card now you have

1:44:58

almost no responsibility you just you

1:45:01

could just flippantly use these things

1:45:03

which is why

1:45:04

we uh

1:45:05

you know we're very childlike in our

1:45:07

actions because we haven't had to earn

1:45:10

the responsibility we haven't had to

1:45:12

earn these things that we've been able

1:45:14

to have and you've only been able to

1:45:16

have them because other people have

1:45:18

innovated and spent

1:45:20

ungodly amounts of time and effort and

1:45:22

focus in the lab to create these things

1:45:24

and then they've all put them together

1:45:26

and then what is the what's the reason

1:45:27

to put them together to profit well

1:45:29

what's the reason of prop well why are

1:45:31

you doing this so you can buy more

1:45:32

things what are we doing what are we

1:45:34

doing we're making better things that's

1:45:36

what we do that's all that's all we do

1:45:38

is make better things yeah why the [ __ ]

1:45:39

do we need oil why do we need oil why

1:45:41

can't we just burn wood and stay home

1:45:43

why can't we grow chickens and food in

1:45:45

the backyard why can't we do well we

1:45:47

[ __ ] can we certainly can people do

1:45:49

do it but we decide to make that almost

1:45:52

impossible our preferred way of living

1:45:54

is to stuff everyone into a very small

1:45:56

area where no one grows anything other

1:45:57

than weed

1:45:59

this is what la is la is 20 million

1:46:02

people with hard surfaces as many hard

1:46:04

surfaces as you can boy if you've got an

1:46:06

acre backyard in l.a holy [ __ ] look at

1:46:08

all that green this is amazing well no

1:46:10

that's the [ __ ] earth coming through

1:46:13

this weird sort of creation that we've

1:46:15

put on top of the earth but the goal is

1:46:17

that like new york city that's there's

1:46:19

none of it right you just got you've got

1:46:21

central park and they just got human

1:46:23

[ __ ] you stacked up no one's growing

1:46:25

anything and then constant work

1:46:27

everyone's up early go go go

1:46:30

innovate progress make that money so you

1:46:33

can buy more things and every year hey

1:46:35

apple where's this [ __ ] new phone as

1:46:38

if your phone isn't good enough yeah

1:46:40

like your phone's taking pictures and

1:46:42

videos and people are calling you and

1:46:44

you got applications to tell you which

1:46:46

way the wind's blowing it's not good

1:46:48

enough a blink of an eye blink of an eye

1:46:49

it's all gone though that you know like

1:46:51

10 000 years and the hoover dam goes or

1:46:53

whatever you know mount rushmore

1:46:55

disintegrates so it's amazing because we

1:46:57

have created that and and everything's

1:46:58

trying to spring up through that we keep

1:47:00

it maintenance down but we're we're a

1:47:02

blink man something hits

1:47:04

but we don't think that way well you

1:47:05

know you think in terms of your own life

1:47:07

right you think in terms of what you

1:47:09

want and what you need right now

1:47:11

you know what it's we are in many ways

1:47:14

this combination of this weird primitive

1:47:16

ape-like thing

1:47:18

with

1:47:19

the ability to calculate and manipulate

1:47:22

our world and our environment that makes

1:47:24

us wholly unique on top of that with

1:47:26

existential angst and and fear so what

1:47:28

do you do with that we [ __ ] water it

1:47:30

down with the anti-depressants give

1:47:32

these [ __ ] people some [ __ ] that

1:47:33

keeps them moving

1:47:34

they're worried about the future they're

1:47:36

trying to figure out what reality is if

1:47:37

this you're on a goddamn convertible

1:47:39

spaceship spinning a thousand miles an

1:47:41

hour hurling through infinity there's no

1:47:43

meaning to this thing just keep making

1:47:45

[ __ ] keep making stuff and then one day

1:47:48

they're going to be able to hit that

1:47:49

switch and this life will be born out of

1:47:53

innovation and thinking and progress and

1:47:56

technology and more than likely it's

1:47:59

probably going to be what we're seeing

1:48:01

that these things are that you're you're

1:48:03

observing

1:48:04

i'm not observing them but yeah

1:48:06

someone's obviously

1:48:07

are you implying that they're us

1:48:09

i don't think they are us but i think

1:48:11

they are what happens when things keep

1:48:13

going

1:48:15

it's not us just like we're not monkeys

1:48:16

right i'm not a chimp

1:48:19

oh that'd be cool

1:48:20

they're from here is your idea no no no

1:48:23

that this is what happens all over the

1:48:25

universe right yeah this is what

1:48:26

happened look here's the thing you know

1:48:28

i went to see brian cox's um

1:48:31

he has this amazing live show with robin

1:48:34

ins where they

1:48:35

they have these led screens these huge

1:48:39

screens with high resolution depictions

1:48:42

of the cosmos and one of the most

1:48:43

mind-blowing things

1:48:45

was he has this large-scale image of the

1:48:48

universe and it shows all the individual

1:48:51

galaxies of the universe and it just

1:48:52

keeps moving through all these galaxies

1:48:55

in three dimensions

1:48:56

and it's [ __ ] incredible but what's

1:48:58

stunning is the relative uniformity of

1:49:01

it even at you know i mean you're

1:49:03

obviously looking at

1:49:05

an incredibly small depiction of

1:49:07

something that's immensely large like a

1:49:10

galaxy of hundreds of billions of stars

1:49:11

you're seeing it as this little dot but

1:49:13

this little dot that's flying through

1:49:16

space surrounded by other little darts

1:49:18

with very similarly spaced distances

1:49:22

yeah

1:49:23

yeah so mike if we see uniformity in

1:49:25

that form in terms of like the distance

1:49:28

between galaxy so many galaxies is so

1:49:30

it's so similar they might vary slightly

1:49:32

and that slightly might be hundreds of

1:49:34

millions of light years right but but

1:49:36

but there's so much uniformity why would

1:49:38

we not assume that that uniformity

1:49:41

exists pretty much everywhere and that

1:49:43

all these things that you're seeing that

1:49:44

are so similar you do see binary star

1:49:47

systems you do see single star systems

1:49:49

like star but there's also some some

1:49:50

speculation that earth and that our

1:49:52

solar system is one time was a binary

1:49:54

star system right i mean that's one of

1:49:56

the the speculations about that that

1:49:58

object that they find outside the kuiper

1:50:00

belt that they think is 10 times larger

1:50:01

than earth they think it might have been

1:50:03

at one point in time a star but this

1:50:06

this uniformity that you see why

1:50:07

wouldn't we think that that

1:50:09

that has its same implications

1:50:11

biologically that there's some sort of a

1:50:13

biological uniformity and that this

1:50:15

happens

1:50:16

given the right sets of circumstances

1:50:19

you should tell them some of the stuff

1:50:20

that you read that you don't know is

1:50:22

true i mean if the the stuff was true

1:50:24

about the

1:50:26

propulsion stuff i mean anyway he well

1:50:28

what have you read

1:50:29

what you saw too and you know what are

1:50:31

you talking about

1:50:34

spill the beans bob

1:50:36

i gotta poke the bear here let's get

1:50:37

some more liquor in you

1:50:39

the um

1:50:42

well i mean

1:50:43

the again the the only thing i could

1:50:46

verify was what i had my hands on um

1:50:49

they were

1:50:51

you know there was talk of weapon

1:50:52

systems that there were different

1:50:54

projects project galileo project

1:50:56

sidekick was supposed to be weapon

1:50:58

applications of the craft

1:51:00

project looking glass had to do with

1:51:03

time any effects of time in the craft

1:51:05

now i don't think we're not

1:51:07

talking about making a time machine like

1:51:09

in science fiction but we're talking

1:51:11

about you know small distortions

1:51:13

intentional distortions of time and how

1:51:15

that can be

1:51:16

used

1:51:18

you know as a uh not as a well it was

1:51:21

part of a weapon program how are you

1:51:22

informed in this these again where

1:51:24

there's just those small briefings that

1:51:26

i read but

1:51:27

again i don't really like to talk about

1:51:29

those because i don't have any

1:51:30

information on them and it was just you

1:51:32

know small briefings but he told

1:51:34

commander fravor that what he saw might

1:51:36

have been a time dilation

1:51:39

well it could be because gravity affects

1:51:41

time you know space time i'm sure you've

1:51:43

heard of that and um

1:51:46

you know what what commander fraber saw

1:51:49

as he was in the f-18 approaching it he

1:51:52

said that he described it as a

1:51:54

ping-pong ball in a cup and shaking it

1:51:56

back and forth it was moving that fast

1:51:59

now obviously if there's anything inside

1:52:00

there

1:52:01

it it's going to be battered to hell but

1:52:04

you know my point was was that well one

1:52:07

of two things

1:52:08

either there's a gravitational envelope

1:52:10

in there which negates any inertia

1:52:13

effects

1:52:14

or

1:52:15

you are seeing through a gravity

1:52:17

distortion field

1:52:19

so you know just like you're looking at

1:52:21

a

1:52:22

a hot highway and you see

1:52:24

you know an optical distortion going

1:52:26

through there well the same thing

1:52:28

happens in gravity and the craft may not

1:52:30

actually be moving like that it may just

1:52:32

look like it because you're seeing you

1:52:34

can only see it through the field so it

1:52:37

may be making much more gentle moves i'm

1:52:40

not saying that's it but it has to be

1:52:42

one of the two

1:52:44

and the thing shows up 60 miles away

1:52:46

they noticed it on radar 60 seconds

1:52:49

after left commander favor but it was at

1:52:52

his cap point which is the next point he

1:52:54

was destined to go to

1:52:56

60 miles away and in 60 seconds on radar

1:53:00

the same object ends up there so it's

1:53:03

going a mile a second no

1:53:05

they i think the radar just picked it up

1:53:08

in 60 seconds

1:53:09

yeah it could have been there instantly

1:53:11

but yeah we don't know the cycle time

1:53:13

nobody knows that that's whole thing oh

1:53:15

so it cycles like radar cycles yeah it

1:53:18

doesn't it doesn't sweep but i mean it

1:53:20

scans yeah it's a planar array so it

1:53:22

just

1:53:23

you know

1:53:24

scans around it at random places that's

1:53:26

a spy one does the really cool yeah it

1:53:28

doesn't do the whole loop anymore right

1:53:30

the point uh the point is though that

1:53:32

the craft moved to his next location

1:53:35

before he knew where his next location

1:53:38

was gonna be jesus and

1:53:41

that's

1:53:42

i mean that's well documented

1:53:44

so that's uh that's a pretty shocking

1:53:47

piece of information what's fascinating

1:53:49

to me too is that you were discussing

1:53:50

this um the the way this reactor worked

1:53:55

and that these things were not really

1:53:56

connected

1:53:58

no nothing is connected

1:54:00

there's no wiring at all

1:54:04

that freaks me the [ __ ] out charge your

1:54:06

iphone you know yeah one wireless

1:54:08

yeah

1:54:09

yeah i mean that's the that's a simple

1:54:12

electromagnetic

1:54:13

yeah i know again but that's just simple

1:54:15

electromagnet magnetic induction right

1:54:17

but i mean tesla the scientist had this

1:54:19

concept of right

1:54:24

he wanted to send

1:54:25

wireless electricity through the sky and

1:54:27

westinghouse was like get the [ __ ] out

1:54:29

of here with that like when anybody

1:54:30

could just pull electricity out of this

1:54:32

meter yeah they couldn't they couldn't

1:54:34

just talk in the car right over and

1:54:35

trying to chill him out you know we're

1:54:36

talking about tesla and how he you know

1:54:38

he couldn't be metered and how it all

1:54:40

went down so it's funny bring it up yeah

1:54:42

yeah that that i mean who knows what

1:54:45

would have happened in terms of

1:54:46

innovation had he been allowed to go

1:54:48

forward with that well we probably

1:54:50

wouldn't have computers

1:54:52

you think

1:54:53

yeah i'm pretty positive i mean forget

1:54:55

about microelectronics well this is

1:54:57

dumping huge amounts of electromagnetic

1:55:00

energy in the air and yeah we'd be able

1:55:01

to wirelessly turn on our lights but

1:55:06

there'd be no radio communication the

1:55:07

interference would be something we could

1:55:09

would be overwhelming it would induce

1:55:11

electric currents in anything with a

1:55:13

small wire on it so integrated circuits

1:55:16

transistors would be disintegrated

1:55:17

before they were even you know tested

1:55:20

for operation so it it would it would

1:55:23

destroy [ __ ] us up yeah it would have

1:55:25

stopped us dead we'd have it'd be great

1:55:27

you could turn lighters on and heaters

1:55:29

from all over the place with no wires

1:55:30

but it would stop modern electronics and

1:55:33

if we became dependent on it it would

1:55:34

almost be like our dependence on fossil

1:55:37

fuels although it's destructive it's

1:55:38

very difficult for us to get off the

1:55:40

nipple

1:55:41

it would have changed the course of how

1:55:42

we developed which is so interesting

1:55:44

when you talk about if a civilization

1:55:46

another star system didn't even start

1:55:48

with fossil fuels they had 115 naturally

1:55:50

on their planet and they're like cool

1:55:51

anti-gravity is pretty awesome well the

1:55:53

fact that i think it's important that

1:55:55

that actually happened yeah

1:55:58

it might have been stopped in its tracks

1:55:59

for a reason

1:56:00

whoa

1:56:02

and

1:56:04

it's just it's i think it's incredibly

1:56:06

difficult for us to imagine

1:56:08

technological progression under another

1:56:10

timeline other than the one that we've

1:56:11

experienced yeah that's difficult

1:56:14

if we imagine what this

1:56:16

alien race must have been like and

1:56:19

i mean god

1:56:20

just just to be able to see something

1:56:23

take like i mean obviously we've seen it

1:56:25

in different life forms right like we

1:56:26

see the life of certain beetles in

1:56:28

comparison to the life of certain fish

1:56:30

very very different existence very

1:56:32

different life cycles octopus yeah

1:56:35

octopus yeah i mean we see all these

1:56:37

different variables in terms of

1:56:38

biological entities on earth but we

1:56:41

don't see it in terms of technological

1:56:42

innovation as we're the only one that's

1:56:45

intelligent that can innovate when we

1:56:47

have intelligent creatures but they're

1:56:48

in the ocean the only other thing that

1:56:50

are like us are dolphins and orcas and

1:56:52

whales and they don't have the ability

1:56:54

to manipulate their environment and

1:56:55

subsequently because they don't have the

1:56:57

ability to manipulate their environment

1:56:59

we put them in fish tanks and we're like

1:57:01

get in the tank do some tricks right

1:57:03

you know the only thing he saw in the

1:57:05

craft if we were considering bob's story

1:57:08

the only thing that you he saw in the

1:57:09

craft that he related to that looked

1:57:11

like a human could make was this

1:57:13

honeycomb hatch and i always loved that

1:57:15

because you're like obsessed with this

1:57:17

thing that you could recognize you know

1:57:19

the re yeah i i only focus on that

1:57:21

because it was the one thing that i

1:57:23

understood how it worked what was it and

1:57:25

it was it was the access to the level

1:57:27

below

1:57:28

and

1:57:29

it was um

1:57:31

well you know if you take uh

1:57:33

you have a six pack of beer and you take

1:57:35

out the cardboard dividers

1:57:37

set it on the table you can put a lot of

1:57:40

pressure on the top

1:57:42

but if you push it from the sides it

1:57:44

collapses flat

1:57:45

so it was something like that in a

1:57:47

honeycomb shape that was essentially

1:57:49

some sort of sheet metal and you could

1:57:52

walk on that in the upper layer but if

1:57:54

you took the corner stuck your finger in

1:57:57

and pushed it collapsed and made a

1:57:59

an entryway so i thought that was a

1:58:01

really unique i'd never seen that before

1:58:04

and it was the only thing in the craft

1:58:06

that made absolute sense to me i said ah

1:58:08

we can make that and all that is is a

1:58:10

hatchway was there any discussion about

1:58:13

the materials that were used to make the

1:58:15

craft

1:58:16

i'm sure there was but that was a

1:58:17

metallurgy division had nothing to do

1:58:19

with us so you never got a

1:58:22

not even the slightest briefing i don't

1:58:23

even know if it was metal or it was

1:58:25

ceramic it's i think it there's a fine

1:58:28

line between the two

1:58:30

now one of the things that's happened to

1:58:32

you that has allowed people to discredit

1:58:34

you was

1:58:36

there's obviously been some sort of an

1:58:38

effort to erase your past

1:58:40

yeah some sort of a ref uh an effort to

1:58:43

erase your education history your

1:58:46

employment history at los alamos in fact

1:58:48

the only way your employment history was

1:58:50

proven at los alamos is someone got a

1:58:52

list a directory of the employees from

1:58:54

the past

1:58:55

and read into it and you were on that

1:58:57

list so it proved that you worked there

1:58:58

even though people were trying to deny

1:59:00

and they were trying to use that as a

1:59:01

way to discredit you that you never did

1:59:02

work at los alamos you weren't really a

1:59:04

scientist

1:59:06

what was what was that like to

1:59:08

experience i mean of course we're

1:59:09

talking about the 1980s the 1990s when

1:59:12

you could get away with something like

1:59:13

that

1:59:14

yeah obviously there are a lot less

1:59:17

uh

1:59:18

a lot less records on computers at that

1:59:20

time it was still file cabinets and

1:59:22

folders but uh yeah that was frightening

1:59:25

that was one of the first things

1:59:28

i think it's i think george knapp was

1:59:30

the first one that uncovered that i mean

1:59:32

he saw my birth certificate disappear he

1:59:35

um it disappeared yeah there was no

1:59:38

record of you yeah there was there was

1:59:39

no record of that there was uh no record

1:59:42

his mom tells me about that like it was

1:59:44

frightening for her for he's got a real

1:59:46

family you know he's a real person it's

1:59:48

frightening for her

1:59:49

but if the los alamos thing really

1:59:51

surprised me and that they were so

1:59:54

adamant that no this guy never worked

1:59:56

here don't be ridiculous and george went

1:59:58

back and forth you know for i got the

2:00:00

letters on the wall yeah months i mean

2:00:02

it was ridiculous but fortunately

2:00:03

somebody came up with a 1982 phone book

2:00:06

directory i mean and also

2:00:09

uh originally i told you uh

2:00:12

you know when i worked there i was on

2:00:14

the front page of the the paper so they

2:00:16

were still able to archive you know

2:00:18

bring that back from the archives and

2:00:20

you know bob lazar a physicist working

2:00:22

here at los alamos so there was at least

2:00:24

something there but uh somehow george

2:00:27

came up with the phone director and then

2:00:29

george then bob took george with cameras

2:00:32

into los alamos oh yeah yeah so we flew

2:00:35

out there and i said look come on in

2:00:37

i'll show you where i worked we'll go in

2:00:39

we'll meet people and george went with

2:00:41

me and you know

2:00:43

i navigate the place oh yeah and you

2:00:44

know met people and you know and almost

2:00:47

was also the place where they had the

2:00:50

machine that was able to read the the

2:00:53

size of your digits no no that wasn't

2:00:55

awesome that was s4 that was s4 and

2:00:57

explain that

2:00:59

so

2:01:00

now this was back in the 80s and this is

2:01:02

back in the 80s where when you discuss

2:01:04

this people like this doesn't even exist

2:01:06

yeah okay what was it it was a way

2:01:09

you know this is before fingerprint

2:01:11

scanners and

2:01:12

you know and anything of

2:01:15

anything any high resolution scanner at

2:01:17

that time so what it was was a device

2:01:19

that uh had a little picture of a hand

2:01:22

on a glass plate with pins in it so you

2:01:24

could jam your hand in there and there

2:01:26

was a bright light above it and a sensor

2:01:28

underneath and when you put your hand in

2:01:31

there the light would turn on and it

2:01:33

would measure the bones in your finger

2:01:36

because the light shown through your

2:01:37

bones

2:01:38

and apparently

2:01:41

the length of the bones in your fingers

2:01:43

are extremely unique and easy to measure

2:01:46

and they use that when you put your

2:01:48

hands on there the light would turn on

2:01:49

and your badge would pop out there's it

2:01:51

right oh there it is that's that's it

2:01:53

and i tried to describe this um to

2:01:55

people and they said that is the most

2:01:57

ridiculous thing we've ever heard

2:01:59

and um

2:02:00

i said hey that my badge came out of

2:02:02

that thing i put my hand on it badge

2:02:05

popped out and that's how i could open

2:02:06

the doors and get into s4

2:02:08

and um you know and everybody

2:02:10

discredited that they said it was

2:02:12

[ __ ] it was science fiction and

2:02:13

jeremy you found this

2:02:15

i i found it through a good friend of

2:02:17

mine named tyler rogoway and he had some

2:02:19

good sources inside of area 52 where

2:02:21

they also used these for the stealth

2:02:24

program right around that time so now

2:02:26

i've got all these people that worked

2:02:27

within who you know said only if you're

2:02:30

in certain programs would we use this

2:02:32

technology it's kind of [ __ ] actually

2:02:33

they didn't keep it for very long

2:02:34

beginning of biometrics so i was able to

2:02:36

reveal it in my film i kept my mouth

2:02:38

shut until i showed it to bob you know

2:02:41

the movie is the first time he saw it

2:02:43

was how you see it in the documentary

2:02:44

that's his genuine reaction i'm getting

2:02:46

goosebumps that was a great idea the way

2:02:47

you did it thank you man because you

2:02:49

know what guess what i'm actually trying

2:02:50

to see if he's telling the truth that's

2:02:52

how i started you know that's how i

2:02:53

started so it was really cool to see

2:02:55

that that you get to see it his actual

2:02:57

reaction has that been verified by other

2:03:00

people yeah so

2:03:01

yeah so to me it has uh personally i get

2:03:04

emails every day and people are telling

2:03:06

me where these are used and how they're

2:03:08

used and send me photos i got a lot of

2:03:09

photos of identity mats now well how

2:03:11

they were used right they're not how

2:03:12

they were used yeah but uh i don't the

2:03:15

most recent one was

2:03:16

way more recent than i thought in

2:03:18

another country but yeah that technology

2:03:20

was used so what's so funny is

2:03:23

um

2:03:24

that this technology even in the area 52

2:03:28

where they'd use him for tonopah one of

2:03:29

the guys who will go on camera with me

2:03:31

he will do an interview with me he was a

2:03:33

technician for one of these and and he

2:03:36

hated them because they were really bad

2:03:37

they always broke down and never and he

2:03:39

was a technician for him now he won't

2:03:41

tell me where if he worked at area 52 so

2:03:44

it's probably tonopah

2:03:46

it's very separated even on base but

2:03:48

yeah so

2:03:49

there was that yeah there is your

2:03:52

education record that was also like what

2:03:55

happened with that

2:03:57

well that disappeared also you know that

2:04:00

i i've i've never gone

2:04:02

i've never gone anywhere for education

2:04:05

i've never gone i never attended any

2:04:07

classes at caltech i never attended

2:04:09

anything at mit

2:04:11

you did attend classes in those places i

2:04:14

did attend classes in those places do

2:04:15

you know anybody that you went to school

2:04:17

with

2:04:18

yes i do and have they verified that

2:04:20

they went to school with you well i gave

2:04:21

jeremy some names but people yeah i the

2:04:24

reason i don't say these names publicly

2:04:27

is because every single time i mention a

2:04:30

name somebody gets injured they don't

2:04:32

want to be of course yeah yeah of course

2:04:36

um but what what is that experience like

2:04:38

seeing your birth certificate erased

2:04:41

seeing your employment well it's

2:04:43

frightening it's it's absolutely

2:04:45

frightening it's also the fuel that the

2:04:46

debunkers use the so-called air quote

2:04:49

skeptics i don't like the term skeptics

2:04:51

i'm going to say this publicly because i

2:04:53

really only said this privately i think

2:04:54

it's a sloppy lazy way to look at things

2:04:57

to just be a skeptic

2:05:00

i want people to be objective

2:05:02

and i think there's a lot of things you

2:05:04

should be skeptical of i think you

2:05:07

should you should look at things and

2:05:09

look at things

2:05:11

from a hard-line science perspective you

2:05:13

should be subjective but the idea of

2:05:15

skeptics the problem with that is you're

2:05:17

always looking for things to be [ __ ]

2:05:19

yeah and i think that's dangerous

2:05:20

because i think some things aren't

2:05:22

[ __ ] it's confirmation bias on the

2:05:23

other end you're just deciding to take a

2:05:25

square thing and put it around hold no

2:05:26

matter what and i find a lot of them to

2:05:29

be lazy

2:05:30

a lot of them to be lazy thinkers sure

2:05:32

because they're always putting it into

2:05:33

that box instead of going hmm

2:05:36

instead of just separating their ego

2:05:38

they're trying they're playing a game

2:05:40

and the game is calling [ __ ] i want

2:05:42

to call [ __ ] and i'm gonna line up

2:05:44

all these reasons why it's [ __ ] and

2:05:45

i'm gonna ignore anything that might be

2:05:47

contrary to that definition yeah

2:05:50

every time i'm thinking i'm going to

2:05:51

catch him in something you know all

2:05:52

along this process um i found dr krangle

2:05:55

he came forward and said i was in

2:05:56

security briefings with bob lazar the

2:05:58

physicist at los angeles he went on the

2:06:00

record with me now the other people i

2:06:02

talked with why won't they go on the

2:06:03

record with me because they're still

2:06:05

working there

2:06:07

so that that's the difference right what

2:06:08

is that what can the public have right

2:06:10

or even if they're not working there

2:06:11

that you know they want to live their

2:06:12

lives why i mean obviously people have

2:06:14

seen what's happened to you mike thigpen

2:06:17

after 30 years yeah really if you look

2:06:20

at all the information on

2:06:23

you know concerning my accounts that's

2:06:25

that's verifiable

2:06:27

it can't possibly be a [ __ ] story

2:06:30

anymore it's really way past that point

2:06:32

yeah i mean that was my big pin is i

2:06:35

mean how could i possibly know

2:06:38

uh so mike fig pin

2:06:40

was the guy that did the security

2:06:42

clearances to go to the bait one of the

2:06:44

guys that was this is the guy that you

2:06:46

worked with he said he did

2:06:48

right and and george knapp you know

2:06:50

george didn't believe him george put him

2:06:52

through four polygraph tests right he

2:06:54

tried to see man this is a big risk it

2:06:56

sounds interesting but let's see if he's

2:06:58

telling the truth one of the things was

2:07:01

bob said there's a guy named mike

2:07:02

thigpen he did security clearances for

2:07:04

the base and that's a weird name it's

2:07:06

very specific

2:07:07

for 30 years george

2:07:10

found this guy in this weird department

2:07:12

that he didn't even know it was my big

2:07:13

pin the guy wouldn't talk to me ghosted

2:07:15

him totally ghosting for 30 years used

2:07:17

facebook and google image match through

2:07:19

his children i was able to find him

2:07:21

after 30 years and i talked to him three

2:07:23

times on the phone he lives on the east

2:07:25

coast he almost went on camera with me

2:07:28

confirmed that he did security

2:07:29

clearances for the base in 1989

2:07:31

confirmed he remembers bob lazar and

2:07:34

what you don't know is there's a

2:07:35

handwritten note that a friend of yours

2:07:37

has from mike what i know i'm gonna give

2:07:40

it to you later i don't but that is real

2:07:42

that is actual so a handwritten note

2:07:43

that says what you know like this is new

2:07:45

to me so when the i

2:07:47

when you're

2:07:50

when they do security client clearances

2:07:52

they go through all your friends and

2:07:53

they go to your friend's phone yeah yeah

2:07:55

so this is too bob and

2:07:57

i had people come to me for a friend of

2:07:59

mine that's serving and they're doing

2:08:00

the security clearance for him and even

2:08:02

though i'm like the ufo guy

2:08:04

they did you know the fbi come and visit

2:08:06

my house and make sure that they talk

2:08:08

about my friend and they lift a little

2:08:09

card and when my wife told him to get

2:08:11

away because he didn't know who they

2:08:12

were they left a little card it's super

2:08:14

cute now back then it was a handwritten

2:08:16

note and his friend has it for him that

2:08:18

you haven't seen in oh my god two

2:08:21

decades

2:08:22

so if you're listening

2:08:24

you're telling me what it is

2:08:25

what is this card

2:08:27

it's just a little handwritten note with

2:08:28

mike thigpen's signature card like like

2:08:31

a like a postcard

2:08:32

like a piece of paper that he left on

2:08:34

the door saying when bob gets back or

2:08:36

whatever it says on it so it's just

2:08:38

another little funny thing i found the

2:08:40

guy he does the security clearances he

2:08:42

admitted to me he did it and he admitted

2:08:43

to me he was dodging george knapp

2:08:45

because when george said his name on the

2:08:46

writ on the on the news he dropped his

2:08:49

fork into his steak or into his potatoes

2:08:51

or whatever and he's looking at his wife

2:08:53

he was in trouble his name's never

2:08:54

supposed to be out there like it's just

2:08:56

a security clearance guy but you don't

2:08:57

want national attention associated with

2:09:00

anything bob has to say but anyway this

2:09:02

unique name bob said for 30 years and

2:09:05

the guy ghosted george knapp george

2:09:06

could prove he existed he actually

2:09:08

talked to me man he talked to me three

2:09:10

times he almost went on camera with me

2:09:12

it's just crazy what what do you what

2:09:14

happens after 30 years you just get more

2:09:16

info well that's one of the reasons why

2:09:18

when you and me and jeremy and george

2:09:22

knapp had that conversation on the phone

2:09:24

yeah i said i think

2:09:26

what we can do

2:09:28

with this podcast

2:09:30

is important i really do i think it's

2:09:33

important for people to hear this

2:09:35

from you in a very clear

2:09:39

just very concise way

2:09:43

and if you examine all the information

2:09:46

that you've said today if you you look

2:09:48

at all the things that the detractors

2:09:49

have said if you look at all of the new

2:09:52

recent evidence that's coming out and

2:09:54

all these

2:09:56

really high-level people in the military

2:09:58

and the government that are discussing

2:10:00

this

2:10:01

it gives you

2:10:03

far more credibility than you would have

2:10:06

had in the 19 years when this came out

2:10:09

[ __ ] yes you can't ignore his story just

2:10:12

because you don't like it anymore that's

2:10:13

why i thought it was important that you

2:10:15

come out and refresh the world's memory

2:10:17

and let people know and like i said i've

2:10:19

been i mean i want to say i'm a fan of

2:10:21

yours but i guess i'm a fan of yours as

2:10:23

a human being i'm a fan of yours but

2:10:25

i've been following you for decades i've

2:10:27

been following the story for decades i

2:10:28

mean i'm kidding i have vhs tapes bob

2:10:31

like a lot of the world has yeah it's

2:10:33

crazy well anybody that has any sort of

2:10:36

uh a vested interest or a just a even uh

2:10:40

just a fascination with ufos has

2:10:43

followed your story because there's no

2:10:46

one else there's no one else that comes

2:10:48

for this some guy who said i worked

2:10:50

underground with the aliens they shot my

2:10:52

hand off like there's a bunch of wacky

2:10:53

dudes

2:10:54

they're underground there's bases

2:10:55

they're shooting lasers through the

2:10:56

earth's crust and they move them at

2:10:58

light speed there's a lot of those guys

2:11:00

they seem schizophrenic they seem crazy

2:11:02

they might even be disinformation agents

2:11:04

they might be people that are designed

2:11:06

to muddy the waters which for sure has

2:11:09

happened people are coming forward

2:11:10

though now it's amazing by doing this

2:11:12

what you're doing you're providing an

2:11:13

opportunity for bob to tell a story you

2:11:16

know believe it or not he can tell a

2:11:18

story it's amazing because more people

2:11:20

will come forward now

2:11:22

that are involved with these projects

2:11:24

they'll come forward to you to me

2:11:26

they're coming forward and so what

2:11:27

you've done here is provide that

2:11:28

opportunity if they need it and it's

2:11:30

amazing i just want to say bob just

2:11:32

don't come forward no don't come forward

2:11:34

to bob

2:11:36

why were you freaking nauseous at the

2:11:39

beginning of this like so

2:11:41

upset why was your why'd you have a

2:11:43

migraine because that started off so

2:11:44

hard my god i was sitting here like did

2:11:45

this why are you asking him why because

2:11:47

obviously anxiety the guy's gone through

2:11:49

30 [ __ ] years of being persecuted i

2:11:51

just want to erase his birth certificate

2:11:53

i just want to hear what you hear from i

2:11:54

want to hear him say i want them why did

2:11:56

i have to say that you don't just set it

2:11:58

up get it i step out okay settle down

2:12:02

yeah well i get it you were it was hard

2:12:04

for you to get them here you know and i

2:12:06

was for us yeah you you don't you do

2:12:09

what really annoys me are the people

2:12:11

that think you know you guys just came

2:12:13

up with the story to make a bunch of

2:12:14

money or get a bunch of you know

2:12:16

attention and that's a good point so

2:12:17

please explain that first of all i don't

2:12:19

get any money out of this at all and i

2:12:21

may i didn't even let you guys buy plane

2:12:24

tickets for me to come out here or

2:12:25

anything i mean

2:12:27

any time like when jeremy

2:12:30

uh pre-previewed i guess the movie up in

2:12:33

michigan

2:12:34

i mean they it brought in like a couple

2:12:36

thousand dollars i made sure that two

2:12:38

thousand dollars went to science

2:12:40

programs at the local high schools there

2:12:42

dirty money i don't want to touch it i

2:12:44

don't take any money from this stuff and

2:12:46

as far as attention

2:12:48

i hate [ __ ] attention i don't like

2:12:51

being on shows i just want to kind of

2:12:54

hide in the corner and do my own thing

2:12:55

so that's i got enough hugs when i was a

2:12:57

kid okay i don't need any attention so

2:13:01

now that if if you if you think somehow

2:13:04

we came up with this thing then you got

2:13:06

to tell me why we did it well you've

2:13:08

done a great job of

2:13:10

making sure you have your bases covered

2:13:11

in that regard that you haven't profited

2:13:13

off of this and like you said that you

2:13:14

have donated whatever money that came

2:13:16

your way to science programs it's i mean

2:13:18

it it doesn't make any sense

2:13:21

any other way

2:13:23

i mean what you're what i've gotten out

2:13:25

of here is what i thought i was going to

2:13:27

get out of here when i watched the

2:13:28

documentary that you what you're saying

2:13:30

makes sense it doesn't make sense that

2:13:32

it's [ __ ] that happened exactly like

2:13:35

i said it did joe i believe you

2:13:37

um in closing is there anything else

2:13:40

you'd like to say

2:13:42

no i can't think of anything other than

2:13:44

really don't come and try to visit me

2:13:47

[Laughter]

2:13:48

well um i know that you have paid a huge

2:13:52

personal cost to get this information

2:13:54

out and i mean maybe you didn't

2:13:56

understand what that cost would have

2:13:57

been when you first initially came

2:13:59

forward with the story but over the past

2:14:01

30 years it's been immense it's been

2:14:04

great and i just want to thank you for

2:14:05

that and thank you for all these people

2:14:08

that would not have gotten this

2:14:09

information and would not have really

2:14:11

had this story any other way

2:14:13

oh thanks joe thank you

2:14:15

and thank you jeremy and one more time

2:14:17

the documentary is available on netflix

2:14:18

right now yeah it's called bob lazar

2:14:21

area 51 and flying saucers all right

2:14:24

that's it folks good night

2:14:26

[Music]

2:14:33

[Applause]

2:14:40

[Music]

Joe Rogan Experience #1315 - Bob Lazar & Jeremy Corbell

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