Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.
>> The Joe Rogan Experience.
>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY
NIGHT. All day.
>> That's wild. I went in [music] cuz I
came in from I am I think I was living
at the time and I went in and uh and uh
I'm sitting in the waiting room and it
was like on a Sunday because it was I
was like I'm only in town for and Stan
was like I'll come into the office. I'm
like thank you so much. I had to have
some a filling or whatever I
[clears throat] needed. It's a kind of
an emergency. So, I'm sitting in the
thing and uh and I'm not getting called
in, but the the the lad just No, no,
there's not even a receptionist. And
Stan comes out with his mask on. No, the
first thing I hear is PIG
PIG [laughter] AND
I'm like, what is happening in there?
It's in the other room. And Stan comes
in with his mask on. He goes, he goes,
sorry. He goes, I'll be with you soon.
He goes, I got Hunter in the chair. And
he goes [laughter] back and I hear
listen to to Hunter Thompson swear for
like 15 minutes. I'm like, "This is
amazing." And then Stan goes, "Okay,
come on back." And Hunter's kind of
getting out and he goes, "Oh, you're
sitting down with this guy. He's a
assassin." [laughter]
And then he goes and he's got this jug
of clear uh of clear fluid and he's
like, "You're going to need a sip of
this." And I'm like, "Oh my god, this is
Hunter S. Thompson's moonshot."
[laughter] I'm like, "This is ethyl
alcohol." Like this is amazing.
I'm talking to this dude for 30 seconds
and I'm getting a sip and like
[laughter] and it was like 10:00 in the
morning on a Sunday.
>> Yeah.
>> He was halfway through the drug
like where was this
>> in Beverly Hills? [laughter] Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Brentwood. Yeah. Brentwood was
stand office. Yeah.
>> Oh my god. That's amazing. It was it
really was amaz It was it was and I so I
had probably a total of seven minutes,
you know, with him and it was like I I I
it could I could not have been a better
seven minutes.
>> That's incredible. I went to the Woody
Creek Tavern just to go there cuz I know
he used to go there and like you could
like feel him in the building. You know,
there's all the pictures in the walls.
It's cool little place.
>> I mean those books Hell's Angels
and and you know, Fear and Loathing is
some of the best writing. I I just
like he really had his own
voice. Rum Diary was spectacular, you
know? It was like really descriptive and
punchy and interesting and
up. And he also just lived that
life. It was like
>> Fear and Loathing changed my life. Like
reading that book was like, "What the
fuck?" Like, "What is this guy doing?
[laughter]
Grown men out there balding grown men
with spectacles running around.
>> I think there's lizards in the
[laughter] lounge. Like, you guys are
loosening." And he's got a day trip bag
filled with acid. Like, what the
are you doing, man? That was [snorts]
and it's great It's like you're
you feel like you're on the
adventure with him, you know?
>> Yeah. No, it's a it's it's interesting
to watch the the evolution of his
writing too, you know? Like I read
Hell's Angels and it's like very
different, you know, but it's
>> and that's early when he's kind of
restrained and it was quite like for
that I think it was edgy sort of for the
time, you know, like oh you're going to
get beat and chain whipped and stomped
by the angels and that was really edgy
and by the time they got to what was
fairly 72 or something like that,
>> you know, he was just
>> Yeah, he was there. He found his voice.
>> He did find [laughter] he was supposed
to be covering a race for like Sports
Illustrated. [laughter]
>> That's where Fear and Loathing came
from. But I lost my mind.
[laughter]
>> Great. It's great, Hunter.
>> We'll take it.
>> Well, hey, it's very nice to meet you
guys. I've met you before, but very nice
to meet, man. Thank you very much. I
love the movie. The rip is
great. It's really good. It's so
original and it's so it's so different
and it's, you know, it's like I love
those kind of movies, but it's not like
any one that I've ever seen before.
Really solid movie.
>> Thanks, dude. Thank you.
>> It was awesome. so [clears throat] much
better than you hating it and having
[laughter]
the interviews where they're like, "So,
I saw the movie anyway. How you guys
been?"
>> We've had we've had a lot of those the
junk the press junkets where they come
in and the first thing that you know the
movie sucks if if they don't ask you
anything about the movie, they come in,
they go, "So, how you been?"
>> You know, and you're like, "Oh
this is going to be bad."
>> Is it weird like the the transformation
of the film industry seems to like a lot
of it is moving towards these big
streaming movies now?
>> Absolutely. I mean, look, it's because
where most people have gone to watch
them, right? Like,
>> used to be the only place you go see
movies in the 40s. Like, every American
went to the movie every week basically.
But it was because it was that or watch
the cows walk by. You know, that was the
only and then TV comes around. It's
little and you see these little cals.
But you know what happened was now this
is why this totally changed the whole
thing because you got 300 million people
330 whatever it is watching you know
Netflix and it's a lot harder to get
people to go into the movies. There's
also YouTube. There's also Tik Tok.
There's also my kids like it's hard to
get them excited about a movie. Yeah.
That's what we had. I mean
>> Yeah. That was our I mean our teen years
were just every weekend we're at the
movies.
>> Yeah.
>> Um there's just no question about it.
that you were going to go and usually
not get into one cuz there were too many
people and then you just see what else
is playing and go to that.
>> Well, it seems like it was kind of
slipping away because so many people
were watching streaming already and then
CO came around and everyone was locked
down and no one was going to the movie
theater and then it just set it.
>> I had this like drama that was coming
out like right when CO hit. I really
like the movie performance movie. It's
an alcoholic guy whose kid guys kid dies
and becomes an alcoholic. It's dark
movie but I I loved it and I could tell
like we're No one's going to go
to see the theater, see this movie. And
it wasn't even that streaming streaming
really blew up, you know, of course
during co. So, you know, look, they
rushed it onto streaming. People
actually saw it. I was like, look, all
things being equal, I'd like people to
see it, you know, and it's not like my
dad had an 11in black and white TV and
that's what was TV viewing now. It's
like $200, you got a 65 in flat
screen like and good sound. So, of
course, people are willing to and then
streamers also started making great
shows. You have adolescence. I don't
know if you saw. I think that's one of
the best things ever done.
>> I haven't seen out of unbelievable.
>> What is it?
>> Oh my god. It's a It's a It's I I don't
want to spoil too much of it. It's only
four episodes.
>> They're all one shot.
>> They're all one shot. Each episode is
one entire shot.
>> Whoa.
>> So, the cast they took, I think, I
talked to the director about it. The
cast took I think a week to rehearse
each one and then a week to shoot it.
And so, so they they do it twice a day.
It's the full hour. They would
choreograph the entire thing. Yeah.
That's really
>> And then the acting is great.
>> But that's that I mean just dismiss that
even you could even call it a gimmick.
It's not in this case. But um the
performances and the writing and what
it's about it's it's as good as anything
you'll see. It's it's phenomenal.
>> What is it on?
>> Netflix.
>> Netflix. Yeah.
>> You know, you have like it's not this is
not even an anomaly. There's Baby
Rangers. There's Succession.
There's Game of Thrones, Ozarks. You
know, it's just like, okay, well,
they're doing great out there. It's
not like the sort of implied thing
before was like, yeah, well, TV's not as
good. We're not as interesting. It's a
serious
>> When we started, it was a there was a
different I I mean, like George Clooney,
for instance, like there was a big
thing, you know, he very famously, you
know, became this superstar on ER. That
show, 40 million people a week were
watching that show. It was the biggest
thing, right? Because [snorts] there
were only a few channels to tune into,
and that show was the biggest one. and
and George never renegotiated his
contract. He wanted to work in movies
and it was like you can't go from TV to
movie. It's very hard. Very few people
can do it
>> and he really strategically and kind of
patiently like he joked that on the last
episode he was on Anthony Edwards, you
know, his co-star was making a million
bucks for the episode and he was making,
you know, 20 grand or whatever his deal
was. Like he could have renegotiated but
he would have had to give more years.
>> That's how bad he wanted to get off TV
and do movies. That's how bad he wanted
to get off of the biggest TV show in the
world. Um because the there was such a
big kind of level change between
features and and TV.
>> Well, it was a giant difference in
quality. It was also this the breaking
it up for commercials, right?
>> It was just a different experience.
>> It couldn't be, you know, there was all
these rules like you can't say this, you
can't do that, you can't swear of
violence and n all the things people
want to see in movies, you know, and
then
>> and also it wasn't it wasn't as
interesting. And then now that's like
tethered to these schedules and all this
stuff or you get this like you
don't have a schedule and and you can
take a bunch of risks. So and that
started happening and then it was kind
of like well this all is just as good if
not better than what's in the movies and
>> well then movies started to move towards
more IP and
>> because it was hard to get people come
to the movies. everyone got scared and
thought, well, you have it there has to
be a sequel or a superhero movie.
>> And so an interesting little movie kind
of in the '9s when we kind of came onto
the scene, you know, there were a lot of
really good independent movies that were
being made. There was there was, you
know, it was a really great time to be
making movie. People were they were
making daring movies and and and then
everyone just got way more conservative
because it's huge. Like the business is
so different theatrically and streaming
because to put out a movie theatrically,
you have to put so much more money
behind it to publicize. Like you're
trying to get everybody
>> spending about what the budget was to
make it to advertise it because you got
50% of the theatrical.
>> Yeah. Because you split it with the the
the movie house, right? The exhibit.
>> So $25 million movie to break in. You
got to make $100 million. And so and and
you got to get everybody to not only
know about the movie but to show up like
that Friday night like that specific
time, you know, for that specific movie.
And so did and to cut through all the
noise that you people are contending
with. And you know,
>> so it just becomes about risk and nobody
wants to take the risk. So they don't
want to make something new because it's
such an investment. We're going to lose
all our money. And the streamers
stepped into that and like no, you know,
you didn't have to necessarily have a
star. You could try something more
interesting or didn't have to be a
superhero movie, whatever it was. And
also, I think it's like, you know,
frankly, like people my age, like it's
first of all, it's expensive, right? You
take your whole family, it's $100.
You're on a streaming service, $20 a
month. You can watch all you want. So,
you can't be cavalier about like you're
just going to price it however the
you want and expect everyone to like be
indifferent to that. And then, you know,
also,
you know, the idea of like for me, you
know, there's a lot of stuff I make that
decision like, do I want to see the
Odyssey on on a big screen? def.
I went to a theater to just watch the
trailer for that movie and you know did
I at one battle after another I wanted
to go see in the theater but there's
movies with people that I really like
and respect where yeah and I got a good
system and but I'm like look I'll
watch and I might get tired or I won't
pause it and take a piss or the kids you
know whatever it is
>> that's conducive to my lifestyle you
know and so and most I see few I think
most people are yeah
>> but there is the experience of seeing it
with a bunch of other people see an
awesome movie with a bunch of other
people it's like a shared experience
>> 100% I I always like
way more attent like like when I went to
see one battle on IMAX like you know
that feeling there's nothing like that
feeling I took you know two of my kids
and two of my nephews and my wife and we
all went and it was just it was like and
you're in with you know a bunch of
strangers but people in your community
and you're having this experience
together. I always say it's more like
going to going to church like you show
up at an appointed time you you know
what I mean? doesn't,
you know, the the experience of watching
at home. I think,
>> you know, you're watching in a room, the
lights are on, other shit's going on,
the kids are running around, the dogs
are running around, whatever it is. You
know what I mean? It's just a very
different level of attention that you're
willing to or that you're able to give
to it. And that has a big effect. And it
also ends up having an effect or is
starting to have an effect on how you
make movies. Like for instance, Netflix
um you know standard way to make an
action movie that we learned was you
know you usually have like three set
pieces. One in the first act, one in the
second, one in the third and you know
you kind they kind of ramp up and the
big one with all the explosions and you
spend most of your money on that one in
the third act. That's your kind of
finale. Um and now they're, you know,
they're like can we get a big one in the
first five minutes to get somebody, you
know, we want people to stay
>> Yeah. tuned in and and can and you know
it wouldn't be terrible if you
reiterated the plot three or four times
in the dialogue because people are on
their phones while they're watching.
[laughter]
You know what I mean?
>> And so then it's going to really start
to infringe on how we're telling
>> but then you look at adolescence who
didn't do any of that. It
>> didn't do any of that great. You
know what I mean? So I think it's and
it's dark too. It's tragic and intense.
this like guy who's finds out these kids
accused of murder and it's like you know
and and there's long shots in the back
of their head. They get in the car,
nobody says anything. I think there are
those look the these were feels more
like the exception. It's so masterfully
[snorts] made that it feels a little
more like the except I hope it's not. My
feeling is just that it demonstrates
that you don't need to do any of that
to get people, you know what I
mean? Like,
>> and I think, you know, yes, you know,
like, look, hey, the town had the action
thing in the beginning, the first five
minutes cuz, you know what I mean? Like,
it's a it's a common trick that you
would go like, let me grab them and get
him invested in the it's like the movies
that start with the hero hanging from
the cliff and now we're going to flash
back to the beginning and tell you how
they got there. Um it's it you know I
always feel like uh you know complaining
about it makes me feel like one of these
guys was like when I was a boy like you
always want to freeze the culture at the
time when you I don't know felt more
like you know we used to have these
phones the are all these phone and
everybody's looking at their I get it
yes it's true also it's like supply and
demand people want to look at their
phone they can look at TikTok they want
you know they're going to do that I
think what you can do is make the
best you can make it really good and you
know people can still go to the movies
it's not I think we have this idea of
that's like an existential threat.
Everything that comes along is going to
destroy everything instead of like
>> what history suggests is that there's
like marginal encroachments. Things
shift. Yep. As television came along,
there was less theater going and that's
still going to happen. And people are
still going to go to the movies because
of what you said. Like it feels like a
cool thing to do. I'm going to go see
The Odyssey. I guarantee you in a
theater, you know, no matter what fewer
of them, you could argue that's because
I have more choice or whatever it is.
It's hard to fight supply and demand.
That's the trick, right? If people want
to watch a bunch of stuff at home
because they invested in TVs and cost us
money, they will. So, okay. But the
upside of that is like I can try to do
something hopefully that's like that
actually doesn't need to, you know, have
the most urgency to get you to come to
the theater with your family. That's a
little more experimental or risk-taking
or whatever in that way.
>> Well, you got to adapt. I mean, there's
no way you're going to change people's
viewing habits now. Yeah. I mean, what
percentage of Netflix is actually
watched on phones has got to be pretty
high, which is insane.
>> Yeah.
>> Even watching on a laptop for me is kind
of like kind of sucks. You know,
>> it sucks.
>> That's a joke that I [clears throat]
like to make with every director I work
with. Like when they're really puzzling
over a shot or really grinding out
something, I go, you know, it's not
going to look as good on the phone when
[laughter]
they just everyone gets angry.
>> Takes the weight out of their
sales, you [laughter] know? No, that's
going to look great this bigs.
But keep around and lighting
that wall.
>> It is weird though the the concern for
the algorithm like making sure that
people watch like look we've got data
that shows within the first five minutes
when this happens they tune out. So
let's like my buddy Tony Hinchcliffe you
know he's got Kill Tony and now it's on
Netflix and so they're giving him notes
now and they can give him like but
they're not telling him what to do but
they're saying like this is when people
are tuning out and so let's you know
just so you have that data now decide
how you want to edit things. It's like,
>> yeah, it is because because the
>> it's like the the bar for for
walking out of a movie theater is a lot
higher than from just changing the
channel. Right.
>> Right. And often times, you know, you
directors will want to make a movie that
is challenging and upsetting. And I
remember Terry Kenny, my my friend,
great actor, and he he told me about the
experience of seeing Taxi Driver in New
York for the first time, right, in 76 or
whenever it came out. And he said, "What
I remember is not only the movie, but I
remember standing at the back because I
had got up. I got up out of my seat and
I went, but I couldn't bring myself to
leave because I was so invested, but I
was so he was standing at the back by
the door watching the movie." And he
goes, "And there were two other people
standing next to me who were doing the
same thing
>> just cuz they were disturbed
>> because the movie was disturbing them so
much." Wow.
>> Which is not a bad thing, right? So had
that been on on Netflix or Amazon, you
know, if somebody say, "Oh, I'm
disturbed." And they turn and they
change the channel.
>> Yeah.
>> Like that doesn't mean you shouldn't
make Taxi Driver,
>> right? That's true. Like the investment
of going to a place is much greater.
>> Yeah. And one of the values of that is
that you could you look at movies from
the 70s, the first act was 25, 30
minutes, right? You know, the verdict
for a great movie takes a long time to
get
>> the deer hunter. Yeah. I mean, that's
>> and and you're right, like what you're
saying, the threshold for walk out is
really like any scene like, ah, I want
to watch Naked Alone, like whatever, you
know, you flip the So, you're
you are battling that. And you know,
>> I watched Lemon's the other night, Steve
McQueen, and there's no one talks for
like five minutes. There's no talking.
It's just a bunch of stuff getting done,
just a bunch of people doing things. And
it's like, wow, you could make a diff.
You could let it air out back then.
Yeah.
>> It was they had a different respect for
what it was. Like you were telling a
story and you're going to let it air
out.
>> Well, they also knew where their
audience was. They were in a theater
that they
>> part of it was they wanted to come
there. I mean, this great story I like
is the first time they they
[clears throat] debuted a movie guys
with a with a projector in a room full
of people. It was a it was a movie of a
train pulling into the station. So they
put the reel up and they did the
demonstration and they showed the people
and everybody missed it because they
were turned around staring at the
projector. They never [laughter]
seen anything like that, you know? So
it's like the techn is upstaging but
like you come for an event, come for a
thing, we're all going to be here.
That's part of it.
>> It's um I don't know. There's competing
arguments. So you can think, well, what
do you get to do? And some people just
go ahead and it. Like Jim Cameron's
Avatar, I'm going to make my three-hour
movie and people are going to come and
great. You know what I And people say,
"Oh, well, you can't have a three-hour
movie." And he's like, "Well, I'm Jim
Cameron and I've actually got the number
one and two and, you know, movies. I I
think I got this." He goes ahead and
does it. You know, this history is full
of people who got told a bunch of
conventional wisdom and we're like,
"Yeah, but we're going to do something
different." And it, as it turns out,
>> like that's actually what people want,
too, is not for you to just repeat the
other that's been done before and
that worked before.
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One of the things I read that I thought
was really cool is you guys set
it up so that if this film performs
well, the entire crew gets bonuses.
Yeah,
>> that's awesome.
>> Yeah, hopefully it's successful.
[laughter]
>> I think you're going to get a house
if it doesn't great movie, man. It's a
fun movie,
>> but it's it's it's good, but it's not
like, you know, we're saints or
philanthropists. Like, it's completely
self- serving in my opinion because in
order to do the job well, everybody
who's working on it has to be really
invested and give a about the
result, not their paycheck only. And
sometimes you worry the crew that just
happen to be great anyway even though
they don't really have to care about it
and they do. And what we saw was like
that makes your movie better. And then
there's just the thing of like the
business is changing. You see these
strikes and work stop all these
questions in order for this I think to
to survive and to be you know a good
middle class art artist you know
artisal craftsman job. We got 1,200
people that, you know, need to have
reliable jobs. And part of the
negotiations is always like, yeah, yeah,
yeah, but we're all going to get
Like, we have no participation. Like,
used to working on movies, and it
happens to actors, too, where you go,
oh, we all invested. It was really hard
and we put in the extra effort.
Somebody else walked away with all the
success
>> and you, you know, my theory was was
with Matt was we were like, how about
where let's say, okay, it's just
fairness, right? this thing actually
blows up and does really well, you
should benefit from that. People have
been, you know, kind of given sort of
promises of of participation back and
that haven't come true. This is like the
crew. Everyone got their rates, everyone
got their hourly, no one cut anything.
This is just an exercise and actually
proving that it's not that if
there's success, you'll get some extra
little success, a little extra, a little
more, a little more.
>> But also, like you said, because it's
fair, you know, and and [clears throat]
and in success, the people who made the
movie should you know, should
participate in that. And and also with
this one, which was important to us,
there's, you know, they they delineate
above the line and below the line,
right? Like above the line being like
us, the director and the producers,
>> um, and below the line being kind of the
more bluecollar side of our industry and
and
>> like painters, grainsmen, camera,
everybody else, drivers,
>> and so we just wanted we we and believe
like when we started this company, we
were like, look, you know, we know who
makes our movie better, right? It's not
it's it's like they've this has kind of
been mispriced the whole time. Like the
economics have been wrong. Like when
there's a when there's a big success,
everybody who had a hand on it
>> because you see a great director that
people rely on or an actor that's
considered bankable, they're all going,
"Okay, I need all my people with."
>> Yeah. Every great director I've worked
with, and I've worked with a lot of
them, they have their regular crew
members that they that are ride or die
with these people because I mean, and
you said it to me when we were starting
the company, you were like,
>> you know, those department heads, you
know, who are each handling like, you
know, cinemat, you know, your camera
department, you know, your grip
department, your electric, like all
these this those people are
ultimately the people who make the movie
good. Like they make a demonstrable
difference in how good your movie is.
And imagine once [clears throat] you get
a good flow with a great crew, like you
got the band. Yeah. Like there's no need
to bring in new band members. Let's
let's do this again.
>> Yeah. And because then and then like you
have the situation where they all are
filmmakers too. Everybody knows what
we're trying to do. So like then what
makes it, you know, you're trying to get
something special, something
interesting, something magical
in some moment. You have to like if
people are tight or they've been out of
shape or, you know, up the
environment, people aren't relaxed,
actors can't do their best work. And
that does make a difference between
something that's good, average, great,
whatever. And I think that if you say
like, you know, it makes cognitive sense
to people, but if you look around like
what's Colin Anderson, camera operator,
right? Not the cinematographer,
>> but I would tell you he's the I think
he's the greatest camera operator there
is in Hollywood. If you want evidence
that he shot Marty Supreme, he was a
camera opera in one battle after
another. You know, he's you look at his
resume and you're like, "Oh, that's
interesting. These are all great
movies." Now, is he personally
responsible for all of it? No, because
it's a collaborative medium. There is no
like you can be a painter and paint by
yourself. You can be a novelist and do
that, sing, write music. You can't do
this job alone. Like there are a lot of
people that go into it. You know, even
my real like Matt was the lead in the
last movie I did air that I directed.
Having somebody so good in your
movie who also shows up, does his job,
is friendly, isn't around or
playing games or being weird like that
sets this tone. Everybody else kind of
goes, "Okay, what's Damon like?" Oh, I
see this. We're taking it seriously, but
nobody's going to be a dick. We're all
going to do our job. We're not going to
take ourselves too seriously, but we're
gonna take the job really seriously.
Immediately, everybody kind of snaps
into that. That trickle down effect goes
across the whole thing. And the I think
the the best thing that I know how to do
as a director is just create an
environment where people feel like they
show up, people like me, they're rooting
for me. I can embarrass myself
and be bad and it's not going to be in
the movie and no one's going to make me
feel self-conscious and
>> I'm listened to my ideas.
>> Yeah. And if I have something to offer,
they're going to go, "Oh, that's a good
idea." You know what I mean? And that
that's kind of the trick to in my view.
And then you're depending on the gifts
of all these people. Every single one of
them, you know, guys was, you know, some
woman's assistant uh propm is coming up
with like the stuff that, you know, Phil
Knight found, you know, his waffle and
the shoe, they found it on eBay, like
that's an extra mile. You know what I
mean? And if you make people feel like
it matters and you give a and that
they're contributing and oh cool, let's
do a close-up of that. That's really
cool.
>> They'll die for you. They'll go all the
way and it changes the whole
>> if you bonus them.
>> Yeah. [laughter] doesn't hurt either.
>> You know, it's not just all, you know,
it's it's not just there's an actual
like codified bonus structure to say
like we
>> this is a way of recognizing that
right? It's like in your paycheck, too.
It's not just real and you guys develop
this. Is this so something that you
like? Kudos to you guys for addressing
this first of all and recognizing it and
having that attitude because it's so
important and it's so easy for big movie
stars to just think about themselves and
their own.
>> We're communists, Joe. [laughter]
>> We're from Cambridge.
keep the car running. [laughter]
>> No, no, but uh but but each each deal
has had this kind of each deal that
we've done so far has been different
because we've made deals with, you know,
different studios and platforms and
stuff like that. And
>> it just involved us basically
retroactively going, "Hey, we came in
under we did a great job. There's extra
money. Here you go." Mhm.
>> This is the first time that we were able
to to actually create like a schedule
where it's like because and by the way,
we wouldn't have been able to do that
without Netflix going, "Okay, cool. You
think you can make this work? Is this
we'll give you a shot. Otherwise, we
wouldn't have been able to do it." So,
we had to say, "Look, we're not asking
you to take a cut, but you know, if if
we we can and we can tell you if the
movie is watched as many hours in the
first 90 days as like this movie a that
you all know what it is, then that's you
know 20% of your let's say, right? You
should take a hit." So it's like, yeah,
you make more money, your bonus is more.
It's all just pegged to where you're at
just because that was the most fair idea
we'd come up with.
>> So they gave us like five different
levels, right? Like the first couple we
hopefully we can hit and maybe the third
maybe we get and then it got to like the
fifth one
>> kind of like single double triple home
run
>> home run grand slam. The fifth
one was was 110% of all Netflix viewers
or something like that. So it's
everybody who has a Netflix account
watches it and then like 10% of them
watch it again. And we were like K-pop
demon this is the biggest but that's
what happened. We were laughing and then
K-pop Demon Hunters came along and
actually did that. That's the first
movie that's ever
>> Jesus.
>> Yeah.
>> Well, I think a lot of autistic kids
watch that over and over and over.
>> I haven't seen I haven't seen [laughter]
it, but I I mean somebody's watching it
over and over.
>> Yeah. So, dude, people love it.
>> I mean, it's you know the the the value
of it is that because before this one of
the big things and everybody's fighting
over in the strike is like well share
your ch there used to be residuals,
right? and residuals and it was only for
SAG and a few other things but it was
like and you knew if you had a line in
the movie and the movie a certain number
like at the box office well you're going
to get another 2,000 bucks and that was
a big deal you get that check in the
mail and like okay I can pay the rent
for another month and I can do that
but then it then there was this like
sort of illde what constitutes success
because streamer doesn't actually sell
another ticket if you watch that movie
right it's hard to tell well why did you
sign up for this service right so for a
while everyone's looking at the first
thing that you looked that when you
subscribe to somebody, okay, you going
to go buy Hulu? What did you watch
first? The bear. Well, the bear must be
creating value for us. But it's you
can't assign a a strict numerical value
to it because it's unlike a box office
where you can go, well, you know,
Oenheimer is a billion dollars or
whatever and you know that's another
billion dollars on our balance sheet
because streamers are doing a
subscription model, you know,
>> it's, you know, whether it's like a gym
membership where in the you
know, first of the year you're like, I'm
going to work out again. I'm going to
buy that annual membership. And you go
twice or you go to the gym every single
day, you're paying the same amount.
>> Also, the weird thing is with streaming,
when you're opening up Netflix, it's not
like you're going to the movie theater
and there's seven movies playing. You're
opening up Netflix and you have an
unlimited option list. It's insane how
much content you could waste the rest of
your life sitting in front of Netflix
and then die and have, you know,
millions of hours more to listen to or
watch. And you're right, like when we
started researching that and built our
own data to poll people and examine all
this stuff, it's it's actually all the
library stuff that people are watching
all the time. if you said like the new
stuff is theoretically what what keeps
people with the subscription or whatever
but in terms of like volume of time I
think and doesn't come from them but it
looks a lot like you know going to watch
like orange and new black and the
episode of suits and the old Seinfeld
and Friends and what you know um Cupcake
Wars or you know that that's what's cuz
Americans watch six hours of TV a day
right
>> that's crazy
>> and then the other six hours they're on
their phone how [laughter] does anything
get done how does anything get done
>> when you started to make this film like
what what is the process like how did
you guys agree on it like what did you
guys have it written first
>> was Joe so
>> before you knew you were going to
Netflix with it
>> yeah yeah he came to us with the script
and we've known Joe for a really he did
a movie his first movie is called Narc I
don't know if you ever saw terrific
great movie
>> so we met him way back this 25 years ago
or something like that and so we met him
met him back then and Ben did a movie of
his4 four, I think. And so we've known
Joe for a really long time and kind of
been in touch with him over the years
and and he just sent this to us and said
and we read it and we thought it was
great and and and and bought it for the
company and then we started talking to
Joe about, you know, how he saw, you
know, how he wanted to do it and and he
suggested that we actually do the movie.
Um, and we and we were like, "Yeah, why
don't we do it? It seems
>> basically because we liked and part of
it's like we're not trying to just do
our movies. We want to be, you know,
doing movies with all these the people
that we like and respect and and and
then, you know, the way we sort of set
it up is such that to try to get like
the historically the way it's worked is
like the, you know, a studio will own a
an IB or a script or whatever and then
you cut and they'll say, "Okay, we want
you to do it." Okay, well, how much?
Well, how much did you get for the last
one, right? And you go then what's the
budget? And then that's how they assign
a value to it, right? But like my belief
was well especially when these streamers
are like coming into the market and and
chasing stuff is like this movie may may
be worth more it may be worth less and
that like we're all just subject to that
so we'll try to get the best price for
it and we'll all share it you know prata
and essentially that that was the same
process we've done eight I guess movies
or so now and and uh we took it out and
you know people wanted it and then one
of the things that was really appealing
about Netflix was that they were open to
this this idea that we've been trying to
institutionalize and was like, "Okay,
great. That's that's really meaningful
because ideally it becomes a template
that other people go, hey, we want to do
that thing, you know, and then go, oh,
here's the paperwork."
>> Yeah, that's the thing. Like a lot of
people say that they would want to do
it, but it now now that template exists.
So, it's like plugandplay. So, if you if
you're not full of and you really
do mean that, then guess what? Just take
this and
>> and it also is going to let you, you
know, I hope like manage the risk. In
other words, the argument you always
have is like, well, we got to
invest all this money in the movie. So,
you can't have your protagonist be too
objectionable. That's too edgy or can't
be R-rated because it costs this. I get
it right. You're going to put all your
money into it. You want you don't want
money to disappear. You want to
make money. Okay. So, if like when we
wrote the first movie that Goodwill
Hunting, it was like we knew that had to
be a cheap movie. People talking in
rooms to each other because no one's
going to put a bunch of money into a
movie with us.
>> Two that no one heard of. So,
it was like, okay, what can we do?
That's interesting that and try to keep
it as inexpensive as possible so that we
can make the argument that someone
should make the movie. That same logic
like carries through every time you're
asking somebody to invest in something.
So what I'd like to have happen is to
say, okay, now that we know there's a
reliable system where we understand that
like in success will actually benefit,
we can lower, you know, the price
upfront for you so that you can have a
low barrier to entry so that you
can take the risk so that we can do
something really interesting. That's
that's an original idea. That's a you
know that's an ABM or sinners or
Marty Supreme or whatever it is and and
then if it's successful we're not all
sitting here like where you
know you guys walk off with all the
money but and you can have that happen
in an ongoing way so that you can make
more interesting stuff. A lot of the
stuff that was going on with the strikes
was centered around AI and what AI is
going to do to the business. like what
where do you feel is going to be like
the biggest problem with AI? Is it going
to be with people's likenesses? Because
there's a lot of that where they want
they want to use extras and own their
digital rights forever essentially be
able to recreate them in any kind of
film. But then there's also you're going
to have films that are written by
artificial intelligence. You're going to
have scenes that don't involve people.
And it gets weird, right?
>> It gets really weird. But there's
actually an area for him.
>> Yeah, we've been spending time looking
at this. Like my belief is it's sort of
like what's going to happen with
electricity.
>> Well, a lot of shit's going to happen
with electricity. Some of it's going to
be good. Some of it's going to change
stuff. Some of it's going to be like,
you know, this is going to be, you know,
that kills a bunch of people. Like,
it's it's it's opening a door that you
can't um you know, say, well, talk about
in a kind of a blanket way. But I think
with what I see is like for example, if
you try to get Chat GBT or Claude or
Gemini to write you something, it's
really shitty. And it's shitty because
by its nature, it goes to the mean to
the average. And it's and it's not
reliable. And it's I mean, I just can't
even stand to see what writes. Now, it's
a useful tool if you're a writer and
you're going, "Uh, what's the thing? I'm
trying to set something up or somebody
sends someone a letter, but it's delayed
two days and gets and it can give you
some examples of that. I actually don't
think it's very likely that it can it's
going to be able to write anything
meaningful or and in particular that
it's going to be making movies like from
whole cloth like Tilly Nor like that's
I don't think that's going to
happen. I think it's not I think it
actually it turns out the technology is
not progressing in exactly the same way
they sort of presented it. Um and really
what it is is going to be a tool just
like sort of visual effects and yeah it
needs to have language around it. You
need to protect your name and likeness.
You can do that. You can watermark it.
You're those laws already exist. You
can't I can't sell your picture
for money. I can't. You can sue me.
Period. I might have the ability to draw
you to make you in a very realistic way,
but that's already against the law. And
the unions are going to I think the
guilds are going to manage this where
it's like, okay, look, if this is a tool
that actually helps us, for example, we
don't have to go to the North Pole,
right? We can shoot the scene here in
our parkas and you know whatever it is
and but then make it appear very
realistically as if we're in the North
Pole. It'll save us a lot of money, a
lot of time. We're going to focus on the
performances and not be freezing our ass
off out there and running back inside.
That's useful just like Spencer Tracy
and Katherryn Heburn used to be like
driving their car and there's a wind
blowing a painting behind them. and look
goofy and you [laughter] know now you
know in computer gener people use a lot
of computerenerated stuff and some of it
is going to replace just that like
instead of uh 500 guys in Singapore you
know making $2 an hour to to render all
the graphics for a superhero movie
there's going to be able to do that a
lot easier there's already laws around
and guild guidelines around like how
many union extras you have to use but
also we've been tiling extras like there
weren't a million orcs in Middle Earth
you know what I mean there aren't
Invictus there weren't all those people
in the stadium like that's something
we've been doing. It kind of feels to me
like the thing we were talking about
earlier where there's a lot more fear
because we have the sense this
existential dread. It's going to wipe
everything out.
>> But that actually runs counter in my
view to what history seems to show which
is a adoption is slow. It's incremental.
>> Um I think a lot of that rhetoric comes
from people who are trying to justify
valuations around companies where they
go we're going to change everything in
two years. There's going to be no more
work. Well, the reason they're saying
that is because they need to ascribe a
valuation for investment that can
warrant the capex spend they're going to
make on these data centers with the
argument that like oh you know as soon
as we do the next model it's going to
scale up can be three times as good
except that actually chatp5 about 25
time% better than chatbt4 and costs
about four times as much in the way of
electricity and data so when they say
that's like plateauing the early AI the
line went up very steeply and it's now
sort of leveling off. I think it's
because and yes it'll get better but
it's going to be really expensive to get
better and a lot of people are like
this we want chatb4 because it turned
out like the vast majority of people who
use AI are using it to like as like
companion bots to chat with at night and
stuff. There's no work, there's no
productivity, there's no value to it. I
would argue there's also not a lot of
social value to getting people to like
focus on an AI friend who's, you know,
telling you that you're great and
listening to everything you say and
being sick ofantic. But that's sort of a
side issue. I think for this particular
purpose, like the way I see the
technology and what it's good at and
what it's not, it's going to be good at
filling in all the places that are
expensive and burdensome and they make
it harder to do it and it's always going
to rely fundamentally on the human
artistic aspects of it. Well, I think
the more it becomes ubiquitous, the more
people are going to appreciate real
things that are made by real people, you
know, like you're you still appreciate a
handmade table, you know? You're you're
going to appreciate like Did you see um
uh The Beast in Me, Claire Danes?
>> Yeah.
>> No, I didn't. great.
>> Yeah, I heard it was great.
>> That lady
terrific.
>> When she's in a scene, you're just like
Jesus Christ. Like great.
>> Like you like her lips are
quivering like you believe everything
that she's saying. But you're right,
people want that. My kids want
cassette.
>> I'll say like I I did this interview
[clears throat] with uh with Dwayne
Johnson because they, you know, they
when people are in these awards things,
they sometimes have other actors
interview them, you know. And I did this
interview with Dwayne and and and I
asked him, there's this scene in the
Smashing Machine where where he's
overdosed on drugs and his buddy comes
to see him in the hospital.
>> Yeah.
>> And and it really walloped me this
scene. I thought it was so great. And
and I asked him and I was just like,
"Can you just tell me about this scene?
Like, did Benny Benny Safy directed it?
Did Benny write this write that? Did you
work on that scene with them? Did you?"
He goes, "No, we we actually worked on
it together." And I go, "But how did
that scene come to be?" And Dwayne goes,
"Well, my father was an alcoholic." And
I don't remember if he said substance
abuse or alcoholic, but I didn't know
the man. I don't want to impug him, but
but he had he had a substance issue,
whatever it was. He goes, "And and when
he would talk to me, uh, you know,
that's how he
would defend himself." It was almost a
bargaining thing because there's this
thing when this guy comes to him, he's
overdosed and Dwayne's amazing in this
scene. He's he's going like he's going
like, "Yeah, isn't it crazy?" And then I
woke up and I mean, I could hear him,
but I couldn't really hear him. And you
see him and he's kind of tap dancing and
his friend finally kind of holds his
feet to the fire. And at that moment,
Dwayne literally
starts to burst into tears and just
pulls the hospital sheet up over his
head. And it's like and it's and it's I
mean it just it was I'm I'm not doing it
justice if you haven't I mean I know you
I know you've seen
>> but um he said yeah. So he explains that
about his father and then he goes and
and uh when my mom was diagnosed with
stage three lung cancer. I was with her
when the oncologist came in and she was
lying in the hospital bed and when he
gave her the news, she pulled the sheet
up over her head and [snorts] I looked
at her and she just looked like a little
like a little kid, you know, and I was
like, "All right." [snorts] Like, so
that right is two traumatic events from
this guy's life, right, from his life
experience.
And the actor in him, right, sees this
scene,
goes into his
memory pulls these two things out,
understands that they're appropriate for
this scene, and he can marry them
together in the scene, and then he goes
and performs it that way. And
[clears throat]
a dude walking in off the road, goes to
the movies, sees this, understands
somehow that it's real. I I
didn't know why. I That's why I wanted
to ask him, how did that scene come to
be? genuinely didn't know and made me
tear up and you know like that is
>> there's no AI that can do that.
>> No, it's the whole lot more than
photorealistic images.
>> Yeah, you you could you could you could
have an AI understand Dwayne's face and
move his face into different No
thing could ever do that.
>> The complications of real life
experiences relayed.
>> That is a completely human That is an
that is an artist. That's a piece of
art, right? that comes out of a lived
human experience.
>> That movie gave me so much anxiety.
There's moments where Emily Blunt is
arguing in that movie. I said I really
said I I I was like that I think I think
that's the best she's ever been. I love
you know we live in the same building in
New York. She's like very dear friend of
mine and I and I I I I was like I I
really think that's the best she's ever
been. And then I said and then I blurted
that out to Chris Nolan and and he kind
of stopped and looked at me like he
didn't say it but he was kind of like
she's pretty good in my movie
too. [laughter]
>> Well, she's great period.
[clears throat] She's great period.
>> She's great period. But there's
something about that. Well, I knew Mark.
I I knew Mark from I met Mark in 97 when
he was fighting in the UFC. So, [cough]
I knew the whole journey of him. And I
was so happy for Dwayne because it was a
film where instead of being this
superhero blockbuster Hulk of a man, he
gets to be that, but be an a great
actor. And you know, you can't really
get a person
>> to look like that
>> to express emotions and and and he was
Mark Kerr. If you know Mark, I mean, it
was great actor.
>> I completely forgot it was him and
somebody who had seen it before told me
that was going to happen and I was like,
"All right, we'll see." Yeah. [laughter]
And it was like from the second it
started
>> it didn't get the credit it deserved in
terms of like the amount of people that
went to see it. But I think overall in
time people appreciated.
>> Yeah. That's one people go back to and
talk about
>> because it's a movie about MMA. So a lot
of people are like I don't want to see a
movie about a bunch of
meatheads. But it's not. It's just a
movie that happens to be around MMA but
MMA. But it's a great movie. The the the
scenes are fantastic. The acting
is so good and the right and even the
the fight scenes. They're so realistic,
man. It's really like they I've saw all
those fights. They recreated those
fights about as good as you can get
>> and just his crazy struggle. And you
know the story behind the documentary,
The Smashing Machine.
>> No.
>> So, The Smashing Machine was made when
Mark was at the height of his powers and
pride. And he was the most terrifying
guy in the world. He was 265 lb of solid
muscle just blowing through people.
Didn't even look like a human being.
Everyone was terrified of him. No one
knew he was a drug addict. No one knew.
And he spiraled out as they were
filming. And he let them film him. Let
them film him shooting up. let them film
him like bringing this giant bag of
pills with him and all this
everywhere and just completely falling
apart. While they were supposed to be
capturing this hero movie of the
greatest fighter in the world, he's
falling apart like live in front of the
documentary. It was amazing
documentary.
>> I got to see it.
>> It's really good. But the I was so happy
that they put it in a film and I was so
happy that it gave Dwayne a vehicle to
show what he's really capable of because
he's so limited by a lot of just the
parameters of the roles that he was in.
>> Yeah. And by and by like galactic
success, too, right? I mean, it's it's
it's he he has he had to
>> and will continue to have to
>> push
>> for that, right? Because it's
[clears throat] what he wants, right?
and not because what because what what
they are going to continue to want him
to do is you know the thing that that
that mints them money. Um
>> yeah but I suspect that his experience
and feeling about this movie
>> from the conversations I've had with
him. Yeah. This this is this is
>> this has changed him.
>> Yeah.
>> Well, I mean it's like this thing that
these superhero guys have to do where
it's like something has to change
because otherwise you're going to be
boxed. Yeah. And with a guy that looks
like that, it's so easy to put him in
that box.
>> And so you see him now, he's thinner.
He's lost a lot of weight. Dave Bautista
went through a very similar thing, too,
right? He wanted to be he wanted to have
more range, wanted to have, you know,
more opportunities to do exciting and
different challenging things.
>> Well, I think also coming from where he
came from, right? It's like you talk
about going from TV to movies in the old
days, try coming from wrestling to to
like the biggest movie star in the
world, right? It's very it's like it's
incredible that he did that and now he's
in this place where he's got this
leverage as because he's so beloved and
you know that that he can kind of tailor
the tailor what he wants from from here
on out.
>> It's hard to bring the audience with you
and like no no I know you like this
thing but let me let me show you
something else. You know it's sort of
like you go to the concert the band
wants to play the new songs and play the
hits. [laughter] You know
it's always a little gilded gaze. All
right. it. satisfaction.
>> Yeah. [laughter]
>> No, I love the song, too.
>> You know, my my acoustic thing that I
did, you know.
>> Yeah. I went to see the Stones and when
they were here in town and there was a
few songs they played that were like new
songs.
>> Oh, really? See the audience is like,
"Okay, okay. Go get a beer. Get the
other one." [laughter]
>> Yeah. That's But I mean, but you know,
every artist, I guess, has to make that
choice. And he's made it. and and it was
amazing vehicle too cuz he still kept
that superhuman hulkish frame and then
but also showed like god there's like
amazing depth there.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> And that's the thing that's I think
especially because it's a it's
collaborative it happens with other
people. That's what movies do that other
doesn't do which is just create
like you feel for people. It's empathy.
It's all made up right that's not him.
That's all it's all an illusion all
But if you do it really well
with like, you know, somebody that seems
to really be feeling something like all
of a sudden, I think what it does, it
touches like these things in ourselves,
you know, it has that same effect that
Dwayne went through of articulate to you
about like these moments that were kind
of burned into his memory. Then really
the best movies are kind of almost blank
screens that we project our own
like, oh yeah, I my father died or I
went through this with my kid or I'm
I feel alone and and and
and miserable and and here's this like
hopeful moment that someone has to go
maybe I can maybe I can do something,
you know, they inspire you, they touch
you, they move you and the thing to go
for. The other thing is, you know, it's
a is to to tell a lighter story, to go
through the more typical sort of tropes
of it all. And it's a
>> either way, you're in somebody else's
perspective for a few hours and
hopefully it breeds compassion.
>> Well, when it's done right, there's a
magic to it where you forget that it's
happening and you're there when the most
amazing trick is when it's done by
famous people. You know, I was talking
to Ethan Hawk about this. There's a
scene with him and Kevin Bacon when in
uh that movie with Julia Roberts about
the end of the world. I forget the name
of it.
>> Right. Yeah, tomorrow
something people will find it. But it's
great, great movie. But there's
this scene where he's trying to get he's
talking to Kevin Bacon. Kevin Bacon's
got a gun to him. And it's so I
know that's Kevin Bacon. I know that's
Ethan Hawk. It doesn't matter. Like
you're locked in. You're locked
in. You're like, "Oh shit." Like that's
the magic. And And he was like, "But I'm
locked in too." Like that's it's like a
hypnosis. It's like everybody is in the
scene in a very bizarre way. Like you
you have the lines, but you're living
it. And so, and that's either done or
it's not done. And when it's not done,
>> you could tell someone's kind of just
performative.
>> You feel it when you're watching it.
>> Yes.
>> If if it does that thing and it pulls
you in, then it's happening.
>> That's the magic of film.
>> And sometimes you trick people, I guess,
but for the most part,
>> for the most part, you don't. you're
feeling it and you it's really
happening. It's much more like
>> other human beings recognize human
beings experiencing real Yes. They
they mirror like I know what
>> sorrow looks like without having to
I can't break it down for you or
I even you know you we all know kind of
what like oh he's a little anxious right
now or did I maybe offend him or you
know all these little things and when
some like in the rare moments when these
big feelings or the things happen you
feel it too you know and you usually
like an example is there's an old saying
about like you know actors try to cry
people try not to cry Like because when
you're really experiencing that
you don't want people to see it. You
want to hide it. You want to No, I'm
okay. I'm fine. You know, it's like
>> you want to pull the sheet up over
Exactly. Exactly.
>> But the other thing that's really
interesting from from our side of doing
it, because he and I have talked about
this a lot, is and I've always said
publicly, like great actors are good
enough for both of you. Like when you're
in a scene with a great actor,
>> that thing that Ethan's talking about,
that hypnosis or whatever you want to
call it, that energy, that that place
where you go, right?
>> They're bringing you right where they
tractor beam. They will suck you
right in with them. And like as quickly
as you look into their eyes and you're
like, you're like just there. And it's
like, and it's not like it's like riding
the easiest wave you've ever ridden in
your life,
>> you know? It can be the hardest thing in
the world and it can be the easiest
thing in the world. When you're with a
great actor, it just it's just if the
scenes
>> Yeah, that's the real paradox is like
all the stuff that I'm the most proud
of, the weird thing about us has felt
very easy at the time. And the
where you're banging your head against
the wall trying to get blood from a
stone and killing yourself and the whole
thing and it just
>> it ends up feeling empty. And
the thing about the stuff that I'm proud
of is I'm my insecurity is like should
be harder than this, right? Are we are
like we work hard enough? Are we get you
know
>> and learn to kind of just trust that? Go
feels good. Let's just keep going, you
know? Well, there's some scenes in this
movie without giving too much away where
there's conflict between you two guys
that seem so real and that's even harder
to recreate because you guys are good
friends and you're making the movie
together and you've got this scene where
you're acting in this and with the
conflict with the two of you guys the
movie, but it's very real.
>> The reason that it was real is that I
like that scene. The reason it's it it
it works, I think, is because
he's coming at me and he's he really
needs to know something and I'm
completely blanking him.
>> Like I'm just he's going, "You got to
tell me what's going on, man." He's
like, "It's awesome." Like, "What what
is going what is the thing?" And I'm and
I'm just like literally kind of blanking
him in this bizarre way which which like
was really frustrating him in real life
because he he was that feeling of like
it's tell me dude it's you and
me like when he finally goes he screams
out I don't trust you right now that's a
problem right which is like what
you would say to an old friend like what
are you doing man like what
>> what what are you do like
tell me the the betrayal me or
tell me the truth. Lie, lie to me or
tell me talk to me and like step outside
our whole relationship and all of a
sudden
>> just act like
>> give me this weird look of just like I
don't know, you know, like [laughter]
and so when we were doing the scene,
it was really pissing [laughter]
him off. I could see him like getting
>> There's the one line that wasn't written
that I saw I didn't remember doing was,
"I would have never you like
this."
>> I I would have never you like
this. Yeah.
>> Which I didn't even remember saying is
George, I like that. Keep that thing. I
wouldn't have you. And I was I
thought I was like what is he what did I
just you and I so watched the playback.
It wasn't those rare moments again. It
was like where it was that thing of you
doing all the work by by not doing
anything which I didn't expect that to
be the choice that you made and it just
was confusing and felt like just you
know leaving you out in the
cold. I the only thing I could rely on
is like I you know I I would I wouldn't
do this to you [laughter] you know. So
do you have in those moments where
you're you're ad living a line where a
line come is it just just that feels
like that's what you say?
>> Yeah.
>> It's just kind of like he couldn't stop
from saying it, right? You know,
>> but you have to be working with somebody
that makes that okay. You know what I
mean? Cuz the part of your brain that
will like govern you or tell you
something's not okay, whatever, will
step in if it's sort of like, you know,
listen, I expect you to do this
boxes. And there's there's uh directors
and writers who who really do really
care about every word precisely and that
you know and that's that's how they do
it and that's fine. That could be great
too. For me like it it I find it's it
becomes more interesting and sometimes
better stuff happens if you actually
feel like you don't have to say any of
the lines. I don't have to say any of
the lines in the scene. Then I'll tend
to say the ones that feel right. But it
but like it's that it's that fake thing
that never happens in life which is I'm
never sitting here talking to you and
think what's my next line? What am I
supposed to say and how should I say
that?
>> And it's not about the lines ever. It's
not about the word. It's about what's h
what's the scene about? What's happening
in the scene?
>> It's one of the reasons why curb curb
your enthusiasm is so great
>> cuz Larry David just gives you a place
to get to.
>> Yeah. Like
>> it gives them an ag kind of a loose
agenda of what's going to happen
>> and then films a bunch of stuff and
everybody figures it out.
>> Yeah. And a lot of times that show's
about the awkward in between when
people are missing each other or not not
sure of themselves and a little
embarrassed.
genius show.
>> It really is.
>> And and and people talk like we're
talking like you occasionally talk over
each other. There's a stumble. There's
no one know like what what what the
are you talk? There's weirdness [snorts]
to
>> because what's also happening is that
forces you to really listen, right? And
that is that is the hardest thing to
kind of learn for young actors I think
is is it's really all about listening.
And like I did a bunch of movies with
Paul Greengrass and that's how he works
where he where you just know the agenda
going in. You know some basic things
that you you know what your guy needs
going in. Like I was playing a chief
warrant officer and I had to go through
a door and there was a guy and I needed
to interrogate him and I this is what I
needed to know from him. I needed to
secure the house with my guys and I
needed to get to this guy. We needed to
make sure everybody here was secure. So,
and it just and they and he put me with
a bunch of real
combat veterans and we went in
and you know they're the
>> another thing that does your job for
you.
>> It's just being around the real people.
>> Joe putting the the cops from Miami, you
know, on these parts and it just like by
osmosis you feel more legitimate. The
thing feels more authentic to the
audience. You don't know why because you
don't know what the how what the
culture is of the nar tactical narcotics
team in Miami. But when you see the real
guys, you kind of oh you're like, "Yeah,
that seems right."
>> Miami was a perfect place to have it,
too.
>> Miami.
>> Well, it's also specific to this because
it's based on this real tactical
narcotics [snorts] team in in in Miami.
And and uh and the guy who ran that,
this guy Chris Casiano is Joe's friend
and he's the guy that my character is
based on. Um, so Chris was Chris we
went, you know, we rode along with Chris
down there. We went with that team and
watched them operate and then hung out
with them and then they came up and they
were, you know, all in the movie and
Chris was around as a technical adviser
the whole time. So any question like
little details, all right, how do I go
through this door? What do I do? What do
you do here? What's the what's the
protocol here? What you know, all of
that stuff was kind of overseen by him
so that it so that it was how they
really do it.
>> That whole town is so Did you
ever see Cocaine Cowboys? Yes.
>> Oh
>> The entire graduating class of
the police academy one year either wound
up murdered or in jail. [laughter]
>> But that's what happens. All of a sudden
you push so much money into
something, right? And it's like and
before they even kind of figured out
like
>> you know and it was there wasn't even a
lot of stigma. I was like, "Ah, cocaine,
whatever. It's kind of rich guys fun
drug." But, you know, is there some
statistic about like, you know, the
amount of money in the banks in Miami
was like the same as the rest of the
country?
>> More [laughter] banks per capita in
Miami than anywhere else in the country
>> because they were just laundering money
and they got away with it. They
literally got away with it.
>> Have you ever flown over biminy? You
know, the island. So, so if you fly
over, ever fly over Biminy, there are
all these like Cessnas underwater, all
these planes like around the island cuz
what they used to do, Bimin is like the
closest it's 50 miles off the coast of
Florida. Um they would they would come
in with a plane full of drugs and just
crash the plane into the water. They
would land it on purpose.
>> On purpose because there's no runway on
Biminy. No, it's like it. We're
going to dump the plane in the
>> They would have 10 cigarette boats, like
a flotilla of boats waiting. They would
crash the plane. They'd offload the
drugs as the plane was sinking, right?
And and then they put it they put
[laughter]
the Coast Guard like figures. They're
always coming for them. That's why they
have 10 boats. They throw the drugs into
one of the boats
>> and they got a one out of 10 chance of
making it. They just scatter
>> and the Coast Guard goes after one of
them and hopes they get the right one
and not. It's just like, "No, it's just
taking a cruise tonight. What's the
problem, officer?"
>> But the planes are still all submerged.
Like you could The water's so clear. You
can see
>> how many Oh, wow.
>> There you go.
>> Wow.
>> That's crazy. How many planes
are out there?
>> I flew over it probably 20 years ago.
But I mean there's
>> Yeah,
>> that wasn't a
>> I don't know how long I mean but if you
think of probably the cost of one of
those little Cessnas probably wasn't I
mean with the amount of drugs they were
moving on on Yeah. There you go.
wild.
>> That's great. They're kind of landing
where it's sort of shallow. [laughter]
>> Yeah. They land and it's like
it. We can swim
>> 5 to 10 feet of water and what do they
they land at whatever 55 knots. So you
just try to
>> looks nice too like sure you can
be comfortable but I mean Sully landed a
737 or whatever it was in water.
>> Yeah. wild. What a crazy part of
our culture that that happened.
>> Yeah.
>> That the the the whole cocaine run
during the 80s in particular like Miami
Vice all that like it's like it
shaped the entire country
>> for sure.
>> Oh yeah. I just remember that one guy in
that documentary who was like I think he
was from Boston and he was like the
pilot and he had figured out the route
and he was like man
>> like we could have gotten away with this
forever. [laughter]
>> It was somebody talked and he knew
that's the only way we would have been
caught. He was like I I had it all. He
was clearly really smart.
>> One of the guys did too. You know what I
mean? There's a whole lot of people out
there that were like yeah we had a nice
run back. [laughter]
>> It's why I got eight houses. You know
it's like
>> Oh yeah. That's one of the real crimes
that people got away with was bringing
cocaine into this country. There's a lot
of people that got very wealthy,
including banks, which is just really
crazy.
>> Banks or the jewelry companies,
Jag. There was like more Jaguar
dealerships in Miami than everywhere
else in the country. And it was like
doesn't pay to ask questions. So, yep. I
guess a lot of people like our cars
here.
>> You don't say all cash. Sure. [laughter]
>> Yeah, we can make you a deal. Sure.
Well, how many backyards in Miami still
to this day have bags just buried
somewhere that nobody knows about?
>> It's probably worth just checking.
>> When you buy a house in Miami, just dig
the yard up.
>> Well, at least find out who owned it
before you. Oh, he's a pilot.
>> Get a truck. [laughter]
>> Get a tractor. It's time to dig up the
backyard. I mean, one of those guys in
the films had millions of dollars just
buried in his backyard. They had nowhere
to put it.
>> They were making so much money, they
just had to bury it places.
>> That's crazy. Well, it's why
it's a perfect backdrop for the film,
you know, because you know that the
situation that the cops without giving
away too much of the plot, but the
situation that the cops are dealing with
is a very real situation. I mean, so
many DEA agents turn dirty. So many cops
turn dirty. It's because it just get
temptation. It's like you take this
these people, you know, you got like
six, seven people, they work for
a living. They have the same
they have to deal with. And there's $20
million, you know, and it's I mean it
makes for a great like drama too. Even
like the you know in the performances
because all of a sudden somebody's
thinking like okay how are they going to
react you know who be the first person
to say you I'm going to have to turn
this all in you know and and like
getting to play that And for me
also I like you know without being you
know sanctimonious or preachy because I
really think movies we're talking about
like what they do well what they do very
poorly is deliver messages or lecture.
as soon as you get into that thing.
>> Yeah.
>> The audience is like, I you know, I'm
going to go to church for that or
school for I don't need that
here. Um, but I like that what was
underneath it is like this is a
hard job and and that there's a lot like
there's a lot of value like the these
characters, the ones that are trying to
do their job are trying to get through
the day and just at the end of the day
have done their job like they said they
were going to do, you know, adhere to
the ethics that they're supposed
to and at the end of the day be able to
sleep at night and believe there's some
value in not stealing the money
or flipping somebody over, you know what
I mean? And doing all that And
that's the win. The wind doesn't have to
be get away with the bag of money or
you know save the world from uh
you know the evil scientist laser beam
or whatever. It's like the end of the
day if you can live with
yourself and say look you know I quitted
myself according to what the
expectations were and what my true to my
word and I I think there's so like
that's a I don't know that that affected
me. I I found that kind of moving and
and you can't do it if you create like
if you to credit to Joe Script like just
two dimensional characters. I'm the
hero, I'm the villain or this person
would never do that. They all have to be
real people like you would be subject to
like
>> temptation. Money just represents
whatever that thing is you think you
want or that's going to make your life
better. You're you know it's something
different to everybody. But, you know,
and especially when you're like you're
facing like real, you know, the custody
thing or the, you know, the sick
relative or or whatever it is, that's
it's a real thing. Nobody's immune to to
to that kind of temptation. You know,
sometimes I think it's cavalier to be
like, "Oh, well, you're dirty." You're
not putting people in a very tough
situation a lot of times, particularly
if they're feeling like undervalued. I
like the woman scene where Catalina is
like, "I get pissed. I get
yelled at. I get on." You know what
I mean? like I'm out here grinding every
day.
>> You know, it's uh it's a lot to a lot to
ask and I think it's it's worth kind of
making that, you know, heroic without
sort of indicating too much.
>> No, it's really well written because
there's no suspension of disbelief
moments. It's a it's a and that's hard
to do in a big blockbuster action movie.
There's always one movie moment in a
movie where you're like, "What? Come on.
How do you do that? That's
>> convenient." You guys don't have any of
those. There's none of that. And I loved
it. I loved it. I loved that that aspect
of it too where it felt like all of it
was like I believed it.
>> I believed it.
>> And that that's really a credit to Joe
and his like taste [clears throat] and
that's why we really thought like this
guy knew how to make narc. He kind of
obviously understood this world and
understood that it has to
>> above all it has to feel real and that's
why he was open to like okay whatever
happens you throw in a line maybe it's
good. can't get your feeling hurt if
it's not, you know, but like you got to
be able to take that shot and we're all
down, you know, trying to spend time
with people. I mean, I kind of feel for
these cops, a bunch of actors descend on
you and they're like, "What what kind of
sweatshirt is that?" You know,
[laughter]
>> it was like that Michael J. Fox, James
Woods [snorts] movie. Remember that
movie when he I forget what it was
called, but he's Michael J. Fox is an
actor following around James Woods. He's
he's studying him for a character and
James Woods is a real like detective and
he's just like,
>> "Get this guy away from me." I kept
thinking of that
>> kind of hair gel you use.
>> Yeah. Yeah. like all these questions,
[laughter] you know, but they were very
tolerant of us, which was which was nice
and and uh and uh and really really
helpful, you know, because it's all it's
always details. It's always details.
It's like how fastidiously do you do you
kind of mind for those details? Cuz I'm
I've always been convinced that like an
audience,
>> it's like you were saying, they don't
analyze why they don't believe
something. They feel it. They just don't
believe it.
>> And it's usually because those details
are you you don't get those
>> and that's the only thing like I'm not
great at imagining something let's
invent this everything that I've done
like that I that I like is been a result
of something I found to research like
for the town I went down and just went
through the you know all the prisons you
know out there in Massachusetts federal
prisons state prisons and sat down and
talked to guys who robbed trucks and
banks and you know kind of sometimes you
know you want to know and then sat down
with the FBI guys and was like what are
they like and the great you know,
for me is that, you know, and I'm in
like uh I'm in like wet wallpap or I'm
in the prison denim or whatever and I'm
to some guy I said like after talking
for two hours, you know, I was like,
"Does anything just weird ever
happened or up? Anything you
remember?" The guy was like, "Yeah, one
time uh you know, we were coming out of
this thing, we robbed his truck and you
know, we we had the mask, we got the
switch car, we drove around the corner
and whatever. We pull up and we get out
guns and the mass hold things
and we look over and it's this cop
sitting there doing construction duty
and I was like right then didn't even
tell me the story. I was like oh I
was like what happened? He goes, you
know, he looked at us, we looked at him,
he looked the other way.
>> Whoa.
>> And I was like, really? He goes, yeah,
he didn't want to end up on the wall at
the VFW.
>> It was like
>> these guys with full automatic weapons,
masks on switching cars. I was like,
"All right, I'm putting that in the
movie."
>> And it's it's in the it's a great moment
in the town, like in the movie cuz you
know, Rener, they all jump out of the
things and then and he Oh, yeah. Here it
is.
>> Exactly.
>> It was like
>> It's great. And it's this awkward.
>> They just stop and dude.
>> He sees him. They see him.
>> He's [clears throat] like a We
have to kill this guy.
>> Nope. He turns away.
>> Okay. Wow.
[laughter]
>> It's such a great But that's straight
from research. I always love that story.
Um and then he and then the line is here
that he put it here
>> and one on the wall of BFW. Yeah. It was
a great, you know, it's a great line.
>> It was such a simple explanation for
what why do you think what do you think
he did, you know, and why? Like
>> and that's exactly what it would have
been like that guy next day's picture
would have been up in the wall at the
VFW.
>> Yeah. [snorts]
>> You know, and he knew it and everybody
knew it. He said he didn't want to do it
like that. You know, that was and that
that kind of stuff is uh I don't know.
It's very human human calculations and
interact. I a very extreme version of
it, but it also doesn't have sometimes.
It's not dramatic at all, you know? It's
like that was an easy decision and the
guy never says anything. I didn't say
anything, you know, and kind of can't
really blame him, you know? It's uh
>> The Town was a great movie, too,
man. And I I knew a lot of people like
that, you know, from boxing gyms and
stuff. I I knew a guy who was a hitman
for Whitey Bulier.
>> I knew a guy who was a a friend of a
brother of mine who went to jail for
that for murder for killing people.
>> Yeah.
>> What town did you grow up in?
>> I lived in Newton. I Yeah. I grew up in
I lived in Jamaica playing for a little
while and I lived in Newton, but I I
spent a lot of time in Boston because I
was fighting. I was mostly training. And
so I was around a lot of these like very
shady characters
>> who were in the fighting world and a lot
of them had backgrounds in crime.
one of the guys that I went to that I
trained with, he went to jail for a
little while and then he got uh arrested
because a guy got killed and they broke
every bone in his body with a hammer and
kept injecting him with cocaine to keep
him keep him awake while they were doing
it and then they cut his hands off and
cut his head off. Jesus.
>> And this guy that I used to train with
got arrested for that.
>> Jesus.
>> Yeah. He didn't wind up going to jail
for that. He's dead now, but he was it
somehow or another at least
peripherilally involved.
>> Yeah. Well, I didn't do any fighting,
but I I went around and found a lot of
the one of the things about be, you
know, being an actor, people will talk
to you, you know, which is a
amazing gift. Even if somebody's like,
"Oh yeah, I killed guys." You know,
they'll just come out and like it's kind
of the rules all of a sudden don't
apply. Like these guys in the prison,
what the are they going to talk?
You know what I mean? But they're like
interested in it for whatever. And you
know, so so you avail yourself of that
and and then I had like, you know, we
had people around that movie who
everybody knew, yeah, he did that job.
He he never got arrested. And so like,
yeah, people, you know, meet PE, you
know, and and uh and talk to him. And
it's interesting because the such a good
lesson for for doing this job which is
that they're never how you think they're
supposed to be like the murderer person,
you know, there's always something a
little I remember one guy was supposed
to be like this really violent kind of
loose cannon
>> guy who supposedly had done all this
stabbed and killed two people
Faniel Hall and shot these guys in a in
a robbery and he like shows up with his
polo shirt kind of tucked in, you know,
how's it going? you know, just like I
never would have put this guy on
killing [laughter] four people,
you know what I mean? And they got to
have a good time. So, I love that one
movie and you're just thinking,
man. Like, this is what And it's a
really good lesson for like, you know,
we tend to read a script and okay, this
guy's the tough guy and he's going to be
the it's like you work with like I have
the like the opportunity to
train with these Delta guys like you
know, it's the most elite special forces
combat operators in the world. I
mean, I suppose the seals will take
exception to that, but what just
numerically, right? I think there's been
less than 900 guys ever in the history
of Delta. You meet them and it's they're
not the biggest guys. They're not the
toughest guys. They're not trying to
be hard and, you know, they're
the most relaxed at ease and it, you
know, I found myself just being like
finally I was like, what can I just ask
what do you think makes somebody like
qualify for the the Delta Force? Like
what's a good Delta operator? He's like,
"Uh, you know, problem solving."
Problem solving? The guy goes, "Yeah,
it's probably like your job." I was
like, "No, let me take notice.
[laughter]
It's really not like my job." I
appreciate it. A very big
difference. He's like, "Yeah, you solve
problems like trying to kill me." See,
that's the thing. [laughter]
But that that [snorts] was the closest
insight I got to it, which was I've
always kind of thought this about like a
guys like like Brady or something.
There's guys that just don't get tight
and that they they are kind of able to
problem solve when the problem is like,
well, that helicopter's crashed and
we're 200 miles inside Afghanistan and
we're outnumbered six to one.
How do you think we should get home?
like just having your wits about you to
make that calculation while by the way
you're in a gunfight and things
you know I'm sure that does make cuz
those are the people where it was I'd be
in a panic and I have no idea
what to do and you get like attracted to
the person who who's like seems to have
it like hey I'm it's good we're going to
be okay everybody get your we're
going over here you'll just follow that
guy you know what I mean
>> and uh but it's a good it's not always
the most
>> maybe it's just because they're so
confident they're not like I Like I
don't need to prove that I can kick
anybody's ass. I don't even get it in
fights like have a weapon, you know what
I mean? [laughter] It's kind of like
it's it's just a it surprises me what it
how those kinds of like extraordinary
experiences in people or extraordinary
people don't always manifest themselves
in how they show up,
>> right? We have caricatures in our head
of what like these tough people are
like. Well, you you see that about MMA
fighters. Like there's a lot of MMA
fighters. you meet them, they're like
the sweetest, nicest, friendliest people
in the world.
>> I remember going to one of the events at
in LA. I think it was a Staples and and
I was backstage and and was talking to
uh one of like the lawyers for the UFC
about we were talking about Conor
McGregor and he was telling me a great
story about him and [snorts] this guy
walks up and he's in a like chinos like
khaki pants and like a blue button-up
like you know kind of business shirt
with spectacles and he's very small and
I kind of don't really regard him and
I'm still hearing this story. And then
Patrick goes, "Matt, do you know Henry?"
And I turn and it's Henry Cejudo. And
I'm like, "This guy could wreck
me, right? [laughter]
Absolutely destroy me." And he
and he is the guy that some dummy would
try to pick on.
>> Yeah. [clears throat] You know what I
mean? Like he does not he's not carrying
himself like he's he just is the thing,
you know?
>> And they find out a little bit too late.
>> Yeah. Don't find that one out late.
Yeah.
>> Yeah. A lot of guys do,
>> unfortunately. Yeah, that's uh it's uh
well, they don't have to prove
themselves, right? They do it all the
time. The same with Delta Force guys.
Like this idea like this like outwardly
brash tough guy. Usually that kind of
machismo and
>> that's That's you're you're
using that cuz you're insecure. The
secure people are very calm and and
genuinely very friendly.
>> Really nice. Yeah, that's been my
experience.
>> Yeah, it's crazy, right? Beautiful, too.
You know, I've kind of like
>> what a great guy. And you feel like
that's nice of you to be so so sweet to
me cuz you obviously you don't have to
be. [laughter]
>> I'll just give you my watch if you
wanted that.
>> Yeah. No, it's it is a fascinating
thing. It's like we have these ideas in
our head, these caricatures, you know,
of what what a a tough man is, what a
good woman is, what this is, what that
is. M
>> as I think one of the beautiful things
about film when a film is really good is
you see these complex characters and it
sort of like reformulates in your mind
like what a person actually is.
>> Yeah. It's seeing all kinds of different
people. Yeah.
>> You know and and Yeah. Yeah. I
completely agree.
>> I mean look the fundamental like
challenge I think in life and is like
it's like to find some humility which
means actually thinking you might be
wrong about the that you're pretty
sure about. And it means that like you
kind of have to assume somebody else
might have a point, you know? It's not
like just writing everybody else off who
disagrees with you because him,
he's an He's, you know, like
those are things that actually take work
to get to because the the first instinct
because you just defend your idea or
whatever. It's easier is to just
>> that it's a zero sum game. Yeah. That
that two competing ideas can't exist.
that somebody can't be a good person
like
if you decide it's you disagree we don't
believe so I don't know what about this
or what about that
>> but once you find yourself relying on
like well I need to like zero out this
person's humanity in order to defend my
idea
>> I think that's a pretty good indicator
that like there's something wrong with
the way you're thinking like because it
can't be that you're right about
everything and everyone else is bad who
disagrees with you
>> I think that was one of the most
interesting things about the Sopranos is
that the main character The guy that you
loved was a murderer.
>> Yeah.
>> He was like who would murder his
friends.
>> He was a a complete mobster and a thug.
But you really loved him.
>> Loved the out of cared about. It
was so complicated.
My daughter doing the part that you
found yourself being like, I don't I
think you probably has to kill him now.
I gota kill.
>> That's also that's also great a great
actor. Like there's a very famous story
about Marlon Brando when he did street
car Named Desire and Tennessee Williams
who wrote it like freaked out because he
was making Stanley Kowalsski he was
making people empathize with Stanley
Kowalsski and Tennessee Williams was
like but I wrote him as a brute. He's
this he was like a two-dimensional brute
who just came and beat up his wife and
you know and and was just and was
supposed to be this kind of dark looming
force over the play. But Brando was
like, "No, he's a human being and I'm
gonna play him like a human
being and and it changed the the play."
But but Williams reflects life in the
real world. Everybody's the hero of
their story. Everyone has the reasons
for why they're doing and people don't
set out to be like, I'm just going to or
hurt someone or dominate the world. Like
you think, well, I got to protect what I
have. It's like even, you know, not
bringing back to this movie, but it's
like what I liked about RIP was it was
kind of the slippery slope. you know
that first time you take a little money
and then well you know I gota cover that
I don't want to go to jail and my reason
why I did that but now I've told a lie
now I got to cover that thing and now
you have guys who both live by this code
that's very hey you protect the people
who are with you and you got to have
this and so now it's two people
are very similar like by that kind of
slippery slope ultimately find
themselves you know willing to kill one
another uh because and it's really not I
don't I don't believe in that one choice
turn it's like more how do you find
yourself, you dig yourself in a
hole cuz you're just covering up the la
trying to fix the last problem that's
arisen, you know, and everybody thinks a
b is of course the roots for themsel is
like empathize with themselves. That's
what we have to be concerned with
ourselves, our needs, our families, our
basic It's a hard to expect people
to go like, "All right, and and and what
about, you know, like what they think?"
And I and I think that's I think it's a
it's a much more honest evaluation of
people. And it allows for like
complexity and forgiveness and
all the that's sort of beautiful
about people like rather than this
notion of like, well, we're going to be
binary, good or bad, perfect or not,
whatever, and any infraction then it's
like permanently stains you. Right.
Like we were talking about earlier about
people that have been cancelled, you
know, that that this idea that one thing
you said or one thing you did and now
we're going to exaggerate that to the
fullest extent and cast you out of
civilization for life
>> in perpetuity. Yeah.
>> It's crazy. And it's
>> Yeah. I was because because I bet some
of those people would have preferred to
go to jail for 18 months or whatever to
and and and then come out and say, "No,
but I that that we can't I I paid my
debt. Like, we're done. Like, can we be
done?" Like, the the the thing about
about that, you know, getting kind of
excoriated
publicly like that, it's it just never
ends. And it's and it's the first thing
that you know it's just it just will
follow you to the grave. I think
>> it's also this problem that people have
with people that are in the public eye.
They have this like desire to chop them
down always, you know, and anybody that
stumbles in the public eye. They want to
destroy their life and they want to just
pile on and you're not there with them.
You don't feel the empathy. You're not
talking to they're not a human being.
It's just text on a screen.
>> Right.
>> Yeah. It's just like kind of like I was
saying like that kind of sixth grade
instinct to be like, "Oh, he's in
trouble." You know, there's this we, you
know, human like we have dark up
instincts too sometimes to like isolate
people or get joy out of someone else's
they're in trouble because maybe because
part of it saying, "Hey, it's not me,
you know." So if you can point the
finger, everyone's looking over there.
We feel safer, you know?
>> Right.
>> But it's it's like Yeah. And to to to
take any forgiveness out of it, you
know, is a really up thing
because then it makes it impossible a to
actually go, "All right, yeah, I did
that. That was wrong. I get
it." You know, because it doesn't matter
once you've said you've done it. You you
become like an outcast. And I don't
think anybody wants to think, you know,
like you're the sum total of who you are
is your worst moment, right?
>> You know, it's sort of like
>> the you know, you know, I think you want
to be judged just as well. Are you
capable of doing something good or
something beautiful? It's not to say to
forget, you know, there's people that
just over and over and over again doing
horrible don't care. I get it. No
one's trying to like absolve that, but
you remove the ability to sort of
forgive people or look at them in a
complicated way. Or else it's kind of
one become of those things. It's like a
>> get one of ours or one of them, the
instinct to get like a team tribal
oriented and it just becomes a sport,
you know?
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's also like who wants to
live in a world with no forgiveness and
redemption? That's crazy. Like that's
just denying the very nature of human
beings
>> and that people do things that they
regret and they do and then they become
better people because of it and to
>> yeah some of the people I would rely on
the most like trust my kids with the
most have done that they that they
really regret and you know was yeah
objectively wrong and then the people
who've been like a I did that I
whether it's like addiction I
got myself down this route I did
this I did this they're able to go I did
it I'm sorry it's real I shouldn't have
done it it was wrong that actually that
those people can become someone that's
very trustworthy because you're like
this will say if they've
done something they'll actually look at
their own behavior they'll acknowledge
it and then you feel you feel good and
you feel much versus someone who tells
you like I'm I'm no I got all I always
get right everything's
>> well it's like it's all it's about
evolution right and and and in our own
personal evolution and we're all in our
on our own path towards that like the
the the idea of attacking someone it's
like Oh, so you you ace the test like
put your pencil down like you nailed
being human
>> you're done that if you nail being human
that's not possible because you forgot
about the part about forgiveness which
is a giant
>> part you haven't nailed it by definition
if you're out there throwing stones
>> it's most of the people that I find
especially when there's someone that's
publicly in trouble for something most
of the people that I know that have
attacked people have a lot of
questionable in their past and it's
almost like they're trying to hide that
by going on the attack. That's that
thing like if I can point my finger,
it's like no one's going to be
>> Yeah. Oh, he's a good guy. Ben's a good
guy. He's calling them out.
>> Yeah, exactly.
>> Meanwhile, you know,
>> if you like like
>> Yeah. I It's like you you were telling
me to see uh wake up dead man, the
knives out the third knives. It's great.
And I watched I really liked it. I
thought it was a really interesting like
>> you know I'm not a religious guy. I
don't like that's you know and yeah I'm
aware of all the like okay you know
there's the religion then there's people
who supposed to be rational. I thought
it was a really beautiful movie about
like what's the role of grace in life
you know and and a really honest
examination of that like sitting doesn't
side by side with yeah okay you don't
believe that but like you and you know
and it's not about like whether you're
going to argue over evolution.
It's about like how graceful are you in
your life, you know? How much
dignity can you afford other people? And
are you willing to recognize and see
that there's maybe something bigger than
yourself and that there's a reason to to
like uh to try to sort of be
>> to find that grace to get better, you
know? I thought it was really beautiful
and kind of rare and
>> uh really surprised.
>> I was really surprised, too. I I kind of
put it on and not, you know, not not
thinking murder myster I I loved it.
Yeah.
>> Yeah. I loved it, too. I think it's one
of the best of the three.
>> It's uh my favorite. It was my favorite
of the three.
>> Those are great. Daniel Craig is great
in that role.
>> He's fantastic.
>> I mean, guy goes from James Bond to that
and so many other things as well. Joshua
Joshua Connor that who played the
priest. I because I first saw him on uh
on the crown.
>> Crown. Yeah, I liked him a lot.
>> I Man, what an actor he is.
>> Really, really good.
>> How much film do you guys consume? Do
you do you spend a lot of time watching
films? I mean, the company depends.
There's a lot like if we're working as
we're watching cuts after cuts and going
to the editing room, like there's a lot
of kind of work around
all the stuff that we have going that
that that eats into a lot of time.
>> I'm mostly trying to keep up with what
people are doing. My issue is really
that like we've kind of developed this
pattern where all these sort of movies
that come out and are more interesting
and very like they're all jammed out at
the last month of the year. And
so all of a sudden you're trying to race
these movies. Yeah. I got really lucky
like uh recently my son you know who's
13 decided he wants to like watch movies
you know and I like give him like
what are you we always looking
at Tik Tok and like let's watch a
movie and you know he's kind of blowing
me off and roll his eyes and like you
know I mean if you're a dad you're kind
of an fundamentally like come on
dad you don't know what's going on you
know what I mean like he told me one
time he was like dad I said let's watch
this movie and I played in the trailer
it was it was I can't remember what the
movie was it was a good movie and the
trailer was good. He just looks at it
and goes, "You know what you guys ought
to do? You guys ought to work with some
of the TikTok editors." I was just
[laughter] like, "Wow."
I went and told the editors, I told
Billy and Chris, I like, "Guys, I got
news for you [laughter] guys." But but
now he's like, "All right, let's watch
like what are some movies I should
watch?" He got Ladder Box. He got into
that thing, you know? It's like, so I
was like, so I said, "Okay, what are the
great movies? I'll give you a list." I
started giving him a list. They started
watching them. And so, I mean, this is
like heaven for me. So I was like,
"Okay, what are you watching?" King of
Comedy. Like last week I watched Baxi
Driver, King K, all these Scorsese
movies
>> and it really was like, "Oh man, I I cuz
in my mind I'm like, "Sure, I've seen
that movie. I know it." I watched them
again. It was I like seeing I realized
how much better they were than I even
could appreciate when I watched it when
I was younger.
>> And it really and it was just the most
beautiful experience for me to
watch with my son. Like he's taking an
interest. And this is the, you know, the
older two have always been a little bit
like, "Yeah, dad, no. Great." But hey,
you guys want to come to the premiere?
No, not really. Uh, [laughter] you know
what I mean? You guys want to come to
the set? No, I'm good. You know,
>> well, it's just too much familiarity.
You know, you grew up with a dad who's a
movie star. You're just like,
>> the kids got in and I get it. You got to
be your own person, do your thing. They
have all their own and I get, you
know, I never even So, I never expected
it from my son and I don't know that
he's going to, you know, and I wouldn't
want to lean on him like, hey, get into
the family business.
>> Um, most of the time it's just like, you
know, we go to like basketball games,
baseball, all that type of stuff.
Um, but it but this was a really that
was like I was like so joyful, you know
what I mean? To sit there and watch the
movies with my my kid. I like I was like
this doesn't get better. This is the
happiest I may ever be in my whole life,
you know, right here. Watch this movie
and he's like, well, he's telling me
what he thinks, you know, just like like
honestly the rest of it you can
keep it, you know?
>> That's awesome.
>> That's the best. Well, it's great that
you guys still love film, you know, that
it's it hasn't become just a job. It
hasn't become a thing that you do that
you really enjoy it and love it.
>> Yeah. It was never a job. I mean, it
really like it was it was like the an
absolute dream from the time we were
kids. We did high school theater
together, you know? Like
>> that's crazy.
>> Yeah. Um,
>> it was like we're lucky to get it and
lucky to
>> the whole idea that you could even the
goal was like to make a living
>> to not have to be like, well, I'm an
actor, you know, slash a waiter,
contractor, dental assistant, whatever
[laughter] the it is, you know,
like actually I can earn money. I can
and we always figured like I don't need
that much, especially if we have kids.
Yeah. You know, okay, we can make a
living or it's, you know, maybe it's
going to be dinner theater or
maybe it's going to be rent. Maybe it's
going to be
>> there'll be a job somewhere that we can
find where we can do this and keep doing
it. Yeah. Well, there's something that I
mean, I love when people love things. I
I I spend time on YouTube watching
people like u fix watches, you know,
like I I don't know why, but I I love
when people make furniture. I love I
love watching people do things that they
really love that they're invested in. I
think we all have that thing in us where
we see someone who's got a passion for
something, someone who really loves it.
And that's what everybody really wants
in life, to be lost in the thing you
love, to have a purpose.
>> And it's beautiful.
Watching someone else with true purpose
is
>> very it's hypnotic. It reminds me of Joe
versus the volcano where he goes in to
buy luggage.
>> You like luggage, sir? He's like, uh, he
was luggage is the central preoccupation
of my life.
>> Guy's a luggage salesman and he
loves
>> nothing more than luggage.
And it's the greatest scene. I
[laughter] asked Tom Hanks about that
when I did Saving Private Ryan. I was
like, "Can you tell me about that
scene?" Cuz we love this scene so much.
And he go and he named the actor. He was
a Broadway actor, I guess. the guy he
came in he worked for like one day in
this scene and he's so good in that
movie and then at the very end he's
showing him all the luggage and Tom
Hanks has unlimited money to spend he
thinks he's dying and so he basically
goes like well what's the best luggage
and he goes well if you know and he
opens if I had the means sir and he
opens up this thing and there's this
trunk and it's like this music plays and
he opens it and Tom Hanks is like
>> I'll take two of them [clears throat] he
goes [laughter] may you live to be a
thousand years old
the greatest day of his
>> [laughter]
>> Oh god,
>> that's amazing. You guys have been in
some bangers, man.
>> Saving Private Ryan. That opening film,
The Storming of the Beach.
>> Unbelievable.
>> That might be the the most realistic
depiction of war that's ever been made.
>> So, I remember reading the script and
there was all this dialogue, all this
stuff that was written. I came late
because I'm only in the he shot it
chronologically and I'm only in the
last, you know, the last act of the
movie basically. and and uh and he told
me on set I was saying how I go how did
it go the beginning go you know there's
that all that dialogue with them on the
boat coming in and and Stephen goes he
just goes I cut I cut all of that out he
goes he goes no talking for the first 27
minutes of this movie
>> and that was when I was like oh my god
this movie is going to be
>> un
>> I think Tom says like I'll see you on
the beach or something he scre you know
guys are puking
>> look at the man next to Yeah, remember
he's not going to live to that. That was
the script, right? Remember that? It was
it was it was look at the man next to
you, he won't live. You know, you're
like, "Two out of three of you are going
to die. So, look at to your left, look
to your right, and feel bad for those
two sons of cuz they're not
going to make it." You know, it was
stuff like that. And Stephen's just
like, "Nope.
>> No, no. These guys are puking. They're
It's like the things up. You could just
hear,
you know, and it's just like and then
just boom, and you're into it." And also
they did this incredible like cinema
changing open the shutter all the way
motion blur skip the the bleach process
in developing the film.
>> I don't and I don't know if they're
going to 22 or 23 frames anywhere in
there maybe. But I I I just remember
maybe it's just the open shutters just
yeah it just means that instead of like
the motion blur is what makes something
that like moves across the frame
quickly. If you look at each frame, it's
like a blurred thing. And when you roll
those 24 frames, it gives you this the
illusion that it moves across fluidly.
And if you basically open the shutter up
so you get much more light. Each frame
takes a super sharp picture. And when
you run those together, like the piece
of dust goes,
>> and so the mortar explosions are going
and it and you get that feeling that
you're adrenalized and you're seeing,
you know what I mean? And it's just and
nobody had ever done it. just the master
of the thing, understood how to use the
tools and combined with a great idea and
it's
>> that's just masterful. Like that's just
how you do it. There's nobody who
directs movies who doesn't go ah it's
Spielberg, you know, it's that's how you
do it.
>> It's just like you say, one of those
things a guy that's passionate and also,
>> you know, caring about something, you
know, it's that that to with that much
passion is kind of connected to
greatness. Yeah. And it's I think why we
love to see that whe you know sports
you know fighting or whatever it
is there's something that makes you kind
of love being alive and also love that
that person when you go like when
you see Michael Jordan like that was
that whole movie that we did airs really
all about like what does it mean to be
great and how does it like touch
everybody and change everybody and make
people want to improve their own
lives because somebody's just better at
at that thing than anybody else in the
world.
>> Yeah.
>> It's it's trans it's fixing you know I
mean I find that
>> really fascinating like I you know
people who are great at something and
the mystery of like well what is that
like and what does that do to your life
and how did you get that way and what
does it take you know
>> and [snorts] what's the cost
>> because to truly be great at something
you have to kind of almost abandon
everything. I I've seen that in various
ways like in that kind of just empirical
personal study. I haven't seen anybody
who I think like qualifies for that who
who didn't also seem to be really
suffering 100%
>> you know and you're like damn you should
be so happy you're the greatest you and
you know interviewers always how do you
feel right now and there's that sense
that like either it's never finished or
it's never enough or they can't enjoy it
or they're car it's that line we put in
air where it's like and you have to be
that thing to be that thing
>> you know like it's a kind of a burden
too in a way
>> 100%
>> and I just see that and that's why we we
want these heroes and people who are
great to I don't know, you know,
flourish and have their life and have it
all in hand. Like there's all this
tragedy and all this stuff that happens
too. And I I it's yeah that's like you
say there seems to be a real cost.
>> Well, there's always a massive cost in
personal relationships because there's
no way you have the time for other
things. And the obsession that you have
to be the best at something, you have to
abandon almost all your concern for
everything else. You have to have this
single-minded focus and that comes with
a cost for the rest of your life because
you damage relationships. You feel like
a piece of
>> and you see that up close and like
that's not admirable, right?
>> You don't give a about anybody
else. No, I do. I just care about this
more.
>> You know, it's like so imagine that
you're making the sacrifices and it's
causing injury to people and you know it
and you don't want to hurt them but you
can't help it
>> and you're getting rewarded for it. You
know, it's
>> it's complicated. Yeah. That's
>> it's crazy because you inspire all these
people that don't know you and you ruin
all your relationship. [laughter]
>> Right. That's right.
>> Maybe that's why I say don't meet your
heroes.
>> Yeah. Exactly.
>> There's something to it, man. There
really is.
>> But it's just we all grow from it.
There's a fuel to watching greatness.
>> There's a thing that that hits you and
lights you up where you want to do more.
You want to be better. you want to
whatever it is that you can do, whatever
it is you do do, you become more whether
it's a great game, a winning touchdown,
whether it's a great film, a great song.
Yeah. It lights you up and it it's the
fuel that we all live off of that
consumes that like we consume to make
our culture move forward.
>> Yeah.
>> There's like a sacrificial element to
it, the people that do it and we all
feed off of it, you know, and it feels
like, well, that's the person that
doesn't get enough out of it, you know?
>> Right. Right. But in great film, I mean,
how many lives have been changed by
decisions made after great films? Like
when I was a kid, I think I was like
seven or eight or something when Rocky
came out and I
>> I saw it and immediately ran around the
block. I've never won in my life.
[laughter]
Like I was eating raw eggs. I was like
I'm like this is going to change my
life. Like it it there's things that
happen when you see something truly
great that it makes you want to be
better as a human being.
I remember where I was when I saw Denzel
Washington play Malcolm X. Went to the
movie, watched that movie and I remember
leaving I was 19 or thinking I want to
be a better man.
>> I thought that in my mind, you know,
because of what I had seen
>> this actor do and this per and the way,
you know, that was the only real
conscious thought I had. But I remember
having it and and kind of being
surprised by it, you know, and it does
it it it that can, you know, it's
really touched me, you know, a lot of
people's work and and that's why
you get that like,
>> you know, you you you see people you
want to let them know, you know what I
mean? And tell them and um I I always
think people come to go, "Hey, I love
that movie." I always feel like, "Ah,
you don't have to say that." You know
what I mean? Right. uh it makes me kind
of uncomfortable and I I don't ever like
put myself in with those figures who I
think are like no but there's these
these towering giants who have done this
you know I don't know it's uh it's not
it's it's it's I finally kind of arrived
to a place where I was like it's always
uncomfortable oh I saw hunting it made
me want to go out to Hollywood write a
script and I think oh I [laughter]
go you know what I mean like man
a certain point I fig Okay, you know
what? Whatever it is, like great. That's
that's
>> the cost of your fame, you know, that
you have to there's going to be a bunch
of people that are going to come up to
you and then want to say those things to
you and like the wanting them to say
those things to you is the opposite of
the mindset that you need to make those
things.
>> Exactly. Exactly. [laughter]
>> Which is is so counterintuitive. You
think like once you become really
successful and you make a bunch of great
things, it's going to be awesome having
all these people come up to you like,
"No, no, no. I'm doing something else
right now. And I can't be all wrapped up
in the fact that I'm changing your
[laughter] life.
>> And also, I can't be satisfied or take
any joy in that cuz I I don't
think I'm good enough. I need to
You know what I mean?
>> Right. Never satisfied. Yeah. You can't.
And that's the the darkness of trying to
do something great. You'll never be
satisfied.
>> You see it in a lot of the fighters, the
same kind of thing. The great great
fighter.
>> Well, also fighters have a very small
window of greatness. There's there's
only like a certain amount of years we
can burn the RPMs at at the red line and
then eventually the knees go, the back
goes, you start.
>> Is it earlier than other sports? It must
be. Yeah.
>> Yes, I think so because like Tom Brady
is still elite. I bet he could probably
play football right now. I bet he You
know what? How old is Tom now? 49.
>> Probably 47 or eight now probably.
>> I bet he could still play, you know.
>> Yeah. I mean, but that's a Yeah, I mean
that's a very specific skill position
and the way he played it he you know.
>> Right. But running back No. Right. But
at cornerback,
>> the elite levels of MMA, especially with
USADA testing and, you know, and now uh
drug-free sport testing when they are
making sure that people aren't on
testosterone and growth hormone, all
these different things like you have
nine years. You have nine years at peak
performance. That's legitimate. Like,
>> how long's Jon Jones been going?
>> Jon Jones is a freak of all freaks cuz
Jon Jones beat Daniel Cormier when he
was on Coke. That was one of the funny
things he said in the uh in the press
conference for the rematch. Daniel was
talking He goes, "I beat you when
I was on Coke." [laughter]
>> I mean, he was getting arrested. He was
partying for when he fought uh
Gustiffson. He beat Gustoson and he
didn't train at all. I talked to his
trainer. He's like, "He didn't even show
up at the gym. He was never
there. He was never training. He could
just show up and beat everybody's ass."
I saw a thing uh on my Instagram feed of
a fighter and I I don't know who it was,
but he was a heavyweight and he goes, "I
had the chance to spar with Jon Jones to
to work with Jon Jones." And he goes, "I
you know, I I knew about it months ahead
of time." He goes, "I got every my
nutrition, everything was absolutely
flawless. I got, you know, my sleep,
everything was on." He goes, "I show up
at the gym that morning." He goes,
>> it's me and five other guys. He goes, he
comes in, I think he went to sleep at 4
in the morning or something. out and he
goes he ran through all six.
>> That's my buddy Brennan Shaw.
>> Is that who it was? Okay. Yeah.
[laughter] It was the funniest story.
And he goes and then I just knew, you
know, like that's that's a level like
but imagine being that elite
>> and and realizing there's another level.
>> Yeah. Oh yeah. Brendan was a top 10
heavyweight and John wasn't even a
heavyweight. John was a light
heavyweight.
>> It was a lower weight class and he just
beat everybody's ass. And he said this
is his warm-up.
>> [laughter]
>> He's just kidding. They just
everybody up. I mean, he has a unique
aptitude for MMA, but also he had two
brothers that were super athletes. Yeah.
Played for the Patriots and Arthur.
>> And so, these guys are super athletes.
And so, they're beating the out of
each other all the time. So, they're
like constantly in competition with
elite athletes from the time he was a
child. Yeah.
>> So, he was just so tuned into
competition and he he so intelligent
like his fight IQ was above and beyond
everyone's and he would study tape
meticulously.
>> Well, that that that spinning kick that
he did to that
where he where he said he
>> and I think he thanked his taekwond do
coach and he said he had been working on
this one specific kick from both sides.
>> Yeah. because of something he saw in the
tape. And he and he got it off and hit
this guy so hard, not even on not even
on his liver side. He hit him on the
other side and you see it shutter
through his entire like organ structure.
>> Yeah. He his heel was deep into his body
cavity like all the way up to his
gnarly like and but he had but
he he he just practice this one specific
>> and he was like and he even said he goes
it is a devastating shot like there's
not a human being who could take that.
>> No, it's like getting hit by a car.
>> Yeah,
>> because when you
>> But getting hit by a car in one spot
the size of a foot, the size of a 13
foot.
>> Oh yeah, here it is. Watch this.
>> He sets him up. Boom.
It's just
>> it's like, yeah, no, it's over. It's
over. It's over.
>> And this is John moving up to
heavyweight because light heavyweight
wasn't a challenge anymore. He decided
to become a two division champion. I
mean, John was a freak.
>> You see it rumbling through.
>> And by the way, that was almost a little
bit glancing cuz he caught him with a
bent leg like he wasn't even fully
extended, which you know
>> was even more devast. But John realized
that as a heavyweight, he didn't have
the power that he had at light
heavyweight. And so he said, "The most
powerful kick is a spinning back kick.
So I'm just going to work on that kick
over and over again because that's the
one tool that I have that can knock a
heavyweight out with one shot."
>> Wow. Okay.
>> That's just
>> It's not just the physicals of He's also
like a genius.
>> He's a genius.
>> Well, he's also like he's the most
meticulous when it comes to game
planning and study. He will not take a
short notice fight. Even a guy that he
could beat any day of the week.
You can wake him up at 3:00 in the
morning. He could that guy up. we
will not take that fight unless he gets
a full training camp to prepare for that
fight.
>> Well, it's just, you know, greatness.
But John's troubled. You know, John's
been arrested a bunch of times and DUIs
and all kinds of crazy and he's,
you know, he's a wild fella. And, you
know, and that pursuit of greatness, I'm
sure, has cost him a lot of in his
personal life. Yeah, [snorts]
>> but you know when he knocks Deepay out
and then did the Trump dance in front of
the whole world like [laughter]
>> for that moment he's on top of the world
you know but then again it's like the
same thing you're as soon as you get
back like what's next
>> you know there's there's another
challenge doesn't matter how many how
many people love you now like it's not
good enough there's someone else looming
you got to beat this guy
>> that seems like a kind of an agonizing
thing to both have the like complete
compulsion to have to get to the next
level and the next level keeps
moving the goalpost. You
>> I'll never forget um I interviewed Matt
Hughes after he lost to BJ Penn. He lost
the welterweight title to BJ Penn and
I'm interviewing him inside the octagon.
He said I'm going to be honest with you
is actually a relief. And he goes, "The
pressure of being the champion and
having someone chasing you for so in the
whole world chasing you." He goes, "I'm
going to be I thought it was an
incredibly
>> brave moment for a guy to say that who
is, you know, just this amazing
human being, this warrior to say, I just
got to be honest. It's a relief. Losing
my title feels like a relief."
>> And [snorts] I was like, "Wow." Like
that that is so so brave to be that
honest in front of the because
everybody's like you just got your ass
kicked. It's like I'm this is a relief.
>> You know, it took a burden off my back.
I'll be back. I'm going to regroup. But
I I needed that. I needed to just
>> step off the top of the hill for
a little while. Jesus Christ.
>> You got to be like a great actually
relief to be able to say something like
that. It's kind of a gift instead of
feeling like you got to hide or pretend
it and go, "Yeah, I'm hiding from my
leaves. It was a lot to carry and
now I you know." Well, the thing about
fighting is everything you try to hide
gets exposed. You're exposed completely
during camp because they're doing these
these round what they take like
>> try if I was here.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Smoke up. They're
taking like, you know, five guys and
they're rotating them in with you. So,
you're doing five rounds with fresh
guys. So you got one guy who's
warmed up, getting, you know, getting
ready for you and then you're
out of breath and they give you a 30
second break instead of a minute and
then they're throwing in these monsters
and, you know, you're exposed. You're
you're getting beat in training. You're
getting smothered in training. You're
you're exhausted. You know, you're
always reaching your limits cuz the only
way to surpass those limits is to hit
them. You got to hit them and then they
got to figure out where that limit is
and okay, next week we're going to do
one extra round. We're going to do this.
We're going to do that. we got to do
more strength and conditioning. We're
going to push you past wherever your
capacity is right now. So, you're always
breaking. You're always you're always at
the point where you can do no more
because it's the only way to and you can
only maintain that like the condition
that they get in when they step into the
octagon. It's not possible to maintain
that. No, right. You can only get
>> you have to aim at that one moment and
yeah, you have to peak and then if you
up and overtrain, which a lot of
those guys do just because they're such
savages, they never want to leave the
gym. Then they don't peak right and then
they come in and they're exhausted and
they didn't recover properly and then in
between rounds they're too tired and
they can't go out for the next round.
They're too beat up. That happens too.
>> I imagine that level of exhaustion has
to be just insane when you overtrain.
>> Oh god. you're in an actual championship
>> and you realized you're there's no you
can't bounce back and this guy is
blasting your legs with kicks
and hitting you with punches and you
can't get out of the way anymore.
>> Do you think who who was it? Was it
Khabib who said that they they should
just do 25 minute just
>> Oh, a lot of people said that I mean
that's a what
songs are playing. What's going on
technology?
>> The Tesy brothers playing in my pocket.
That's hilarious.
>> Um, sorry about that. Uh,
>> well, Hoist Gracie always said that.
Like that was how he fought in the early
days.
>> They just straight 25 minutes
>> because he was like, "Look," he goes,
"Uh, if we're on the ground," he goes,
"I don't want them to stand back up
again and go in between rounds." And he
goes, "I need time to cook them." That's
what he would say. Yeah. Yeah. It was I
mean, that's what jiu-jitsu is all
about. Jiu-Jitsu is all about staying
one step ahead of you until you become
exhausted and you know and then they
eventually finish you
>> like a like a just
>> throw a constrict.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's the real that's
but you know there's this balance of
like making it interesting for this for
people to watch. I I've been a proponent
of no standups. Don't ever stand anybody
up when a guy takes you down. Like you
get an advantage at the beginning of the
round anyway because a striker gets to
be standing up when you didn't earn it.
So you should never get stood up in a
fight. I don't care if the guy's doing
nothing. If he's holding you down and
you can't get up, that's how it should
be. So it's more realistic. But it's the
balance of it being a sport. People want
to watch.
>> Yeah. Making it because people get when
people grab someone to take him to the
ground, nothing happen. People go, you
hear the audience and then the referee
gets a little motivated and he stands
people up and I'm always like, "Ah,
don't stand them up." It's
>> I never thought of it that way that the
beginning of the round starts it to the
advantage of the
>> always always you're you're in a
position you didn't earn you never got
back up. You know I think they should
put them right back to where they were
at the end of the round because it's one
fight. It's not five fights. So if you
start it standing up and at the
beginning of each round that's a new
fight.
>> Yeah. Right.
>> In a way when you're pitching like how
quickly would the UFC go out of business
if
>> real quick 30 seconds they're on the
ground and then it's 24 and a half
minutes. Dude, I'm a terrible
businessman. [laughter] I I would give
the fighters more money. Like they would
I would up the whole business
model. I would uh I would get rid of the
cage. I would have them all fight in a
basketball court. Just put mats on the
ground in the basketball court. I don't
think you should have a cage. I think
the cage gets in the way. It becomes a
way to get back up because you press
your back up against the cage. You can
use it to stand back up again and you're
in the middle of the center of a mat.
It's very difficult to get back up. And
that's realistic,
>> right? you know, you're using a foreign
object to help you perform. Yeah. Right.
Yeah. But,
>> you know, there's the whole macho thing
about people fighting in a cage and it's
like they lock you in there [laughter]
match.
>> Yeah. It's just uh but I mean in terms
of like inspirational performances and
things that you when you see like the
human spirit elevated to the the the
highest possible place when two very
skilled men or women are fighting in a
cage where they prepared for this for
three months and then you know
the referee's like are you ready? Are
you ready? Let's go. And it's like that
moment like is it's not not like
anything else in all sports. I think
that's the moment that like people show
up for cuz they build the intensity.
It's the same with like the old Tyson
fights or whatever like now it's going
to happen and there there you can't help
but have that feeling once it you know
and yeah some fights end up being
disappointing whatever but there that
moment is always there.
>> Well, Tyson was a crazy example of what
we were talking about with greatness
because like you could dedicate your
whole life. You could get up in
the morning at the right time. You could
eat all the right foods. you could do
all the right training, but then you see
that guy like smoke [laughter]
13 seconds.
>> There's nothing I can do. I have no
chance. You know, by looking at he had
the just a look in his eye and you it
was one of the only fighters where you
just see the other guy was scared.
>> Usually they at least hold himself
together where they come off like, "Oh,
I don't know. This guy looks pretty
tough." Guys would fight Tyson and just
would start and they'd feel that moment
too. Oh they're letting this tiger
out and here he comes. And it was like,
>> well, we're old enough to remember when
he was in his prime and those fights
were like executions. You didn't want to
pay for the pay-per-view because they
were so I I swear I mean I mean Jamie
might be able to prove me wrong, but I'm
pretty sure that they cut to Alex
Stewart and they cut to his wife and she
was crying [laughter]
>> and this is when they're coming to the
center of the ring and she But by the
way, for good reason. Like this man
might kill my husband, right?
>> You know what I mean? like
>> he's certainly going to beat the
out of him and she knows it and the
world knows it and
>> guys were ready to quit. Remember that
dude Hurricane or whatever white kid who
fought him when
>> his guy couldn't wait to throw the towel
in. He had it ready like you know he was
ready to go. All right, that's it.
That's good.
>> The bell rings he picks up the towel.
>> Yeah, [laughter] you got save your guy's
life. You know what I mean?
>> McNeel is up now, too. When you
hear him talk, it's rough. It's rough to
hear. Really? Yeah. I saw him get
interviewed recently. That's the dark
side of the sport of of MMA and of
fighting. You know, you you talk like I
had Johnny Knoxville on here yesterday
and Johnny Knoxville was knocked
unconscious 16 times.
>> Jesus Christ.
>> Yeah, that's what I said. And I'm like,
"Holy man." And he seems normal.
Like, he doesn't seem like he's got
brain damage. Now, when you're talking
to guys and you know they have brain
damage, they're slurring their words and
they're still fighting.
>> Their words all mumble together. Like,
you have no idea how much they're
struggling.
>> Like, and they'll they're going to be
struggling in a downhill slope for the
rest of their life. It's not going to
get better. It's going to get way worse
cuz the real brain damage occurs like 10
years after the the injuries. That's
when it really sets up.
>> Really starts like just keeps
>> keep getting worse. I mean, there's some
therapies that they can do now. There's
uh like they they do and Knoxville did
some of it like this magnetic therapy
that they do that reimulates neuron
growth and and oddly enough mushrooms
like psilocybin has been shown to all of
a sudden cure a whole bunch of
>> I know. Well, probably always has, you
know,
>> all of a sudden they acknowledging it.
Yeah.
>> Well, one of the things that's opening
the doors for them to acknowledge it is
soldiers
>> because it's always been kind of like a
leftwing wing thing to be into
psychedelics, but all these soldiers are
coming back with PTSD and drug addiction
and a lot of CTE from, you know, bombs
blowing up and IEDs and concussions and
the only thing that's helping them is
psychedelics. So, it's kind of like in
Texas, uh, former Governor Rick Perry
has started the Ibeane initiative. So,
they're using Ibeane to help all these
different soldiers, which is ironically
the drug that Hunter S. Thompson claimed
Ed Musky was on when he was running for
president. Oh, really? Yeah. [laughter]
Remember when he sank Ed Musky's? It's
if
>> What is I gain? I
>> It's from the Aboga tree. And it is a
psychedelic that is in no way
recreational. It is a very difficult
experience. It's not fun for anybody.
It's like a 24-hour trip. I haven't done
it, but my friends that have done it say
that it's basically like you see your
entire life play out before you. You see
where all your problems come from. You
see where all of your emotional hitches
are. Yeah. And with addictions, it has
an 80% 80 I think it's 84% with one
treatment, they quit whatever they're
hooked on. Not only that, it rewires the
brain. So the physical pathways to
addiction, like someone addict to
opiates, gone, completely severed. So
you literally don't have a physical
addiction to opiates anymore. So with
one treatment, 80 plus% of people
>> That's incredible.
>> With two treatments, it's in the '9s.
>> That's amazing.
>> It's amazing. And it's been illegal, you
know, since like 1970 in this country.
The sweeping psychedelics has like a
clinic or whatever. Well, Rick Perry um
because he's worked with soldiers and
because he's worked with a lot of
veterans that you know and he's a very
compassionate and intelligent man, he
realized like, okay, maybe I'm wrong
about all this psychedelic stuff. And so
he started getting behind this ibeane
initiative. They passed it in Texas and
now they're doing it with soldiers and
they're going to do it with police
officers. And I mean police officers
experience more PTSD. Like I I have a
good friend who was a cop in Austin and
he said and he was also in the military
and he said what I saw in the military
was nothing compared to what I saw as a
police officer. Really? He goes, "I was
seeing death and violence on a on a
daily basis." He goes, "When you're
deployed," he goes, "Yeah, you're you're
going to see some horrible but
you're going to see some horrible
mixed in, you know, over a course of
time where, you know, you go out and
things go live." goes like every day.
>> Every day you're going directly to
somebody who's having the worst moment
of their life.
>> And every day you're pulling someone
over and they might shoot you. Like you
have no idea. You're you're pulling up
to uh tinted windows. You don't know
what the is going on. You're
running the plate. The the license is
expired. You have no idea who's who's in
the car. You don't you don't know
anything. And you've seen all the
videos. We've all seen videos of cops
getting shot down like when they're
pulling over a car. We've all seen it.
And so these guys are living with this
PTSD all the time. And then they
have to live in real life. They they're
supposed to go home and they're supposed
to just be a normal dad and a normal
neighbor. And their head is just
a hurricane of chaos.
>> And I gain has been very beneficial for
those people to just just sort of come
down and and try to find the root of all
this stuff and and get them off pills
and and get them on the straight.
>> That's great.
>> Wow.
>> Oh, it's amazing. I don't know why we
got on the mushrooms. Oh, I because uh
during the Trump during the presidential
elections, he he started spreading these
rumors and it's in the the documentary
uh I what is it that documentary? Is it
Fear and Loathing?
>> Gonzo. Gonzo. That's right. In that
documentary, Gonzo, he talks about it.
So, he's getting interviewed by Dick
Cavitt and he goes [laughter] he goes,
"Yeah." He goes, "There was a a rumor
running around that uh Ed Musky was on
Ibagain and I I knew about it because uh
I started that rumor. [laughter]
But he made I sold it to him.
>> So the guy completely cracked. So like
this guy was like a frontr runner for
the president and he completely
cracked because everybody thought that
he was on drugs cuz H Conter Thompson
was just running around like saying
there's these Brazilian witch doctors
who are coming in to treat this guy.
It's crazy
>> That's [laughter] great.
>> They were like and Hunter would know.
>> Yeah. Yeah. But it's crazy that he chose
Ibgainane, too, because Ibgainane is
like it's not a recreational drug and
it's not a drug of addiction. It's a
literally a drug that stops addiction.
>> But that he was the guy that would have
the full c the whole book's full of
these esoteric drugs you never
heard of that you mentioned really
casual way like four of us stopped to
get ibeine at the one gas station that
sold between [laughter] needles and
nothing.
>> Yeah, sure. No, of course you did.
>> But it it does help people that have uh
brain damage as well. It's it's supposed
to like cause some sort of neuro
>> regeneration. Yeah. Yeah.
>> There's stuff out there that can help
people, but uh a large percentage of
these fighters are silently suffering
and we don't ever hear about it.
>> They say like it's supposed to be that
it's that like the argument is is
because it's you know they're not using
a glove like that football supposed to
be wor I mean wasn't that the sort of
rationale that like you were going to
have less impact in boxing because the
the boxing gloves? No, but it's remember
it's all it's like the subconcussive
blows. It's like the it's not
necessarily the the the one shot
knocking you out as much as the repeated
>> kind of like small like little bit of
brain bleed.
>> I'm sure it's like they're all bad for
you. You know what I mean? Like a
version of
>> knocks to the head are not a thing to be
avoided. Yeah.
>> Well, it's also what you take in
training, too. We're only considering
what happens during a fight. If a guy
has 40 50 MMA fights, that's 40.
>> How many rounds does he have right in
the gym? Yeah. Oh, training camp is
brutal. And depending upon how
intelligent your camp is. Like some
people are really smart and they'll spar
where they're not hitting each other
hard and then maybe one day of the week
they go live, but you do it with
trusted, you know, they're they're very
close to you. These are people that you
care about and love, so they're not
going to try to hurt you on purpose.
>> But sometimes not. Like sometimes you're
in a hostile gym and you know, you got
to spar with people you don't even know.
They're from other countries. You have a
big name. They're trying to take you
out. you know, it's um but the the
amount of damage these guys take. I
mean, I don't know if football's better
or worse. They're all But the thing
about football is the big impacts are
way worse because when you've got a 300B
super athlete that's full tilt
all the way from across
>> boom
running start.
>> Yeah. you're getting hit by a truck
>> and that but that doesn't it's it's not
targeted necessarily at your head. So
it's like what what is better and what
is worse. You know, boxing's bad. You
know, it's like
>> you have less options. MMA is slightly
better because if especially if you're a
grappler, you can take guys down and you
can beat them up on the ground, but it's
ultimately
>> you're paying a price make a
living for sure. But for that glory, for
that one moment when they win and the
16,000 people are on their feet
screaming, there's probably no drug like
that that could ever reproduce it. And
those guys chase that high for their
entire life and then after it's over,
they, you know, they feel oddly
detached,
>> right?
>> And nothing ever rises to that level
again,
>> right? You can make films until you're a
hundred years old. You know, you can
make great films forever. You can do the
thing that you love forever. They have a
little window, a little window of
greatness. really tough thing about
being an athlete like I
>> we were talking to Pete Sampress that
time we met Sam years ago and he was
like we were probably I don't know how
we were 30 he was 32 or something like
that
>> and he was kind of we were like oh my
god you know he had all these
you know wins and grand slams and he he
had a kind of vaguely like yeah he was
like hey you guys look I I'm about to
retire it's I'm finished and we're you
know young guys were you know
>> just getting started you know what I
mean like we're also the thing is you
get better
>> at your job the more you do it Yeah. You
know, so it's that thing with the
athlete. I was having this conversation
the other day. It's like you have all
the physical skills at the beginning,
but you become a better, you know,
better at your sport.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, as your skills are declining
and
>> the body just doesn't want to do it
anymore.
>> And you've got to just comp become Greg
Maddox, you know, and compensate with
all the tricks and location and but like
and that's why that drama of like the
aging athlete is so powerful. still have
it. It's like all do we still have it in
me? Can I still do it? How long, you
know, is what I've learned enough to
compensate for what I've lost? You know,
>> well, there's an interesting story about
Vtor Belelffort. So, Vtor Belelffort was
he won the UFC heavyweight tournament
when he was 19 years old. That was like
the first event I ever worked at, 1997.
I mean, he was like one of the all-time
greats for sure. But as he was getting
into his 30s, he was starting to
decline. Then the UFC allowed fighters
to use testosterone replacement therapy
and boy did he use it. Okay,
[laughter] I don't know what his levels
were, but they were like superhuman
levels. And there was a moment in time
for a few years where they allowed him
to use testosterone therapy and people
refer to it as the TRT Vtor years
because he was terrifying
because he has the mind of a veteran.
Incredible amount of experience. But now
his body is moving like a 25-year-old.
And so he was just annihilating people
just lighting people on fire.
>> So they're not allowed to use
testosterone or
>> No, they can't use anything.
>> Um,
>> no.
>> No. How about peptides? Can they use
peptides? Nope. Nope. Not even peptides.
They're trying to take that and and
reform that. But there's a lot of
ignorance about peptides, what they
actually do. I mean, all it's allowing
you to do soft tissue injuries, heal
quicker, and optimize your body's
ability to produce hormones. So, instead
of adding exogenous hormones, you're
allowing your body to produce them more
naturally, and it'll it just makes you
more healthy. for a very unhealthy job
and where you're, you know, you're
getting hurt all the time. It's it's
going to be better for the sport, better
for the athletes to allow them to all
use it. And it's also there's no
long-term damage that's going to do like
steroids where it shuts down your
endocrine system.
>> So, I hope they reform it. But the idea
was that there's so many
loopholes and so many people cheat. Big
camps used to hire scientists. So they
had a scientist on staff that was not
only
>> he do.
>> Yeah. Exactly. Not only procuring stuff
that that would slip by the test because
there's like you know the Balco stuff
with Barry Bond clear
>> there. There's there's stuff probably
right now that people are using that's
slipping through and there's a lot of
experts that have like one of the things
is animal derived testosterone. So
testosterone one of the they do they use
a carbon isotope test. I think I believe
that's how they use to figure out where
the testosterone came from. So if your
testosterone is like at a very high
level, they test all your other ratios.
They go, "Well, no, it all seems likely.
He's just he's an outlier. He just has
naturally high testosterone." But
testosterone that you get from like
synthetic testosterone is derived from a
wild yam,
>> believe it or not. Yes. Yeah. It's not
It's not animal derived testosterone. So
the composite of it varies when they run
the tests on it and they can determine
>> they can determine that it's a yam based
testosterone
>> it's exogenous not indogenous
>> yam they're fighting it's not heavy
[laughter]
>> but if they could figure out a way to ex
and there's a lot of proof of concept of
this can they figure out a way to
extract testosterone from animal sources
>> bold testosterone
>> something like that well toine that's
they used to inject Hitler with torine
>> you know Hitler was like a
guinea pig for this one doctor who tried
a bunch of on him and one of the
things they did was like inject him with
bull testicles and stuff. They try to
keep him viral.
Yeah. But but there probably are
athletes right now that are using some
that they haven't figured out yet.
So to give them any loopholes at all,
they're like, "No, no, no
loopholes. No IVs, no nothing. I
vitamins and
>> Right." But the problem with IVs is you
can mask testosterone and and and mask
steroids by overflooding the body with
liquids. So if you overflow so then when
you
>> So the ratio is high because like you
add more water it's you would just fill
them up with saline and then when they
go to piss like nope clean look at the
ratio it's
>> cuz it's like so much water is being
processed through the body that it
doesn't have time to show the
testosterone. So there's a way to mask
it especially with like things that you
would add to the IV. Um, so there's no
you can't do it's only food and approved
supplements through like really high
level labs like Thor, like Thorn
supplements where it's third party
tested.
>> So they don't they can't do anything.
But for a while they let him do it and
uh those TRT VOR days are my favorite
fights to watch. [laughter]
>> Did they stop doing fighting because
they thought it was like advantaging
certain people or they happened
that they're like this is up or
was
>> Well, they look look at the difference.
That's TRT Vtor on the left and that's
him on the right when they made him get
off of it.
>> Look at the difference.
>> Jesus.
>> I mean, that's stunning. On the
left though, dude, that was
terrifying. When Luke Rockol fought him,
he told me, he goes, "Dude, when I stood
next to him at the weigh-ins, he
had muscles on his teeth."
>> He goes, "This dude was so
jacked. He was so scared." I was like,
"What the is he on?"
>> He goes, "He knew he was on something."
It's just It's cheating. It really is
because you can jack your levels way
above a normal human beings because
that's what a lot of guys there was a
few fighters that were pulled from cards
because like say if a really high levels
like 1100 they were testing like 18900
they were like people that have never
lived before
>> they were like a science project.
>> They had different species
>> and they were most insane confidence cuz
they were essentially like a raging
gorilla. They were just insanely
confident and just it's just so fired up
like they couldn't wait to smash
somebody because they were just
maniacal. They're a berserker, you know?
So you it's not a person anymore. Now
now you're a science project. It's not,
you know, there are rare outliers who
like Tyson when he was in his prime.
It's rare physical specimens and like
that's part of the game, but that's God,
you know, that's nature. This is not,
you know, Balco Labs. And so they won't
allow him to do anything anymore. And
that's why it's cuz too many and VTOR
was one of the guys that tested like way
over the line and then they just decided
>> like but that's what they're going to
do. If you say
>> if you say it's legal, they're just
going to take as much as good more is
better. And you know
>> Yeah. If you say you did one cc a week,
they're like I heard five. I heard five
cc's. And these guys are just training
five times a day and they never get
tired and they recover like that. So and
they they never have to worry about soft
tissue injuries cuz they they heal like
you're a six-year-old, you know?
And you just your body just like
[laughter]
Wolverine.
>> Oh yeah, man. Well, that's the thing
about peptides, too. The Wolverine
stack. BP157 and TB500. I don't know if
you ever get injured. If you ever get
injured, get immediately on BP157 and
TB500.
>> I didn't hear about TB500, which what's
that one?
>> Thyin Beta 500. It's in conjunction with
BPC 157. It is a phenomenal
stack and just really helps injuries.
>> I didn't know they called it the
Wolverine stack.
>> That's what they call it, the Wolverine
stack. Yeah, cuz you heal
incredibly well. Like you like it
quickly. I was talking to a pro football
player pulled his hamstring. He's like,
"Dude, I I shot that right into my
hamstring for two weeks and I was right
back on the field." I was like, "That's
nuts."
>> I go, "What is a normal rehab?" He goes,
"Three months."
>> He goes, "In two weeks I was back on the
field." I go, "What the f?" He goes, "I
don't know how bad the injury was." He
goes, "But to me it's like I
pulled my hamstring. I'm now for
x amount of days." He goes, "In two
weeks later, I was playing full tilt."
>> Wow.
>> I'm like, that's nuts. and going right
into the area of the injury.
>> Right into it. Some people think you
don't have to do that. They think it's,
you know, systemic. So, you just like
stick it in your fat on your on your
side. But he's like, "No." And most
athletes will tell you the best benefit
is local. Shoot it locally into the area
and it just has
>> like uh cortisone or whatever. Where is
it? What is the
>> cortisone? But cortisone just mass
>> numbs it or whatever. Yeah.
>> Not only that, it it has a tendency if
you do it too many times to weaken
tendons.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. And so it could actually
exacerbate the problem because it takes
away the pain.
>> Measure, right?
>> Yeah. It takes away the pain. But
>> I mean, you know, then there's the
enhanced games that are coming out in
Vegas this year where they're like,
>> I know my my friend had that idea a long
time ago. He was like, you should just
do the the the the drug Olympics for
cash. He goes, "Do it in Vegas for
cash." And then then the enhanced games
came. I sent him a tell. I was like,
"They're doing it." [snorts]
>> The game
>> and it's just like
>> I'm down. I love Let's see what a human
being can do.
>> I That's what I think. I mean, look,
when Barry Bonds and, you know, Sammy
Sosa and those guys were cracking out
home runs, it was one of the most
exciting times in baseball.
They didn't do anything. They knew it
wasn't a mystery to anybody. But
Avery's tuning in. The Bash Brothers
baseball on a strike, you know? They
almost destroyed that league and
then people started watching home runs
and everyone and then Bonds is like,
"Well,
>> these two guys are hitting this
many home runs. I'm the best player in
baseball." Which he was. And when he did
it, it was lights out. Yeah. You know, I
mean, he had a year where he only swung
and missed 26 times. 162 games, three
[laughter] and a half bats a game. Only
swung and missed 20. I mean, that's
just,
>> you know, and yeah, Magguire get like
just like move his wrist to get the ball
out of the park and it was like, yeah,
it was fun to watch. And when people say
like steroids don't make you a better
athlete, well, they don't maybe don't
make you a better athlete, [laughter]
>> but if you're a Barry, if
>> you're already an elite athlete, yeah,
it makes Let Jon Jones do all the juice
he wants. He'd be fighting until he's 50
and people up. And you say,
"John, we we've we really come to our
senses. Like, this sport's all about
excitement. Want to give the people what
they want. Give people let people make
informed choices based on their own
discretion."
>> Oh, it's like,
>> "Welcome back. Welcome [laughter] back."
Then all a sudden, John looks like Vtor
in that picture.
>> He'd be undefeated.
>> By the way, John beat Vtor when Vtor was
in his prime. And Vtor caught Jon in a
full arm bar, totally locked his arm
out, hyperextended, popped it, went
backwards. You can see the video of it.
His elbow is going that way. He wouldn't
tap and then beat him in the next round
>> with one arm.
>> Yep. One arm. His arm was
for like a year after that.
>> Yeah.
>> Give that man some steroids. Let's
[laughter] see what he can do.
>> Steroids. Let him be the king of the
world.
>> Yeah. The dream team. It's like remember
the first time the the the pros went to
the Olympics, whatever the years, won
every game by 70 points. You know, it
wasn't close, but it was a hell of a lot
of fun.
>> Well, the argument for that made sense
though because like these other people
are being compensated in their
countries.
>> Oh yeah, I had no problem. And then by
the way, now it's got more that last
Olympic championship was that was a
great game against France. That was
fabulous. You know, I mean, yeah, they
they're they're going to wreck some
smaller countries and stuff, but
>> okay, that you're playing pros, they're
playing pros. the whole definition of
amateurism has gotten a little bit like
you know
>> yes it's it's it's people find like a
convenient definition of it according to
what's there like you see in college
sports is changing and stuff like look I
got no problem if you're going to apply
the rules evenly but sometimes when it
feels like it's just an excuse to like
for the NCAA to make a billion dollars
off the TV deal like no no you guys
you're getting you're getting education
>> it's like a little bit like yeah
education you guys making a lot of money
because people want to see Nebraska play
>> it's exploitation
>> yeah and I'm glad they've changed that
with college sports because these guys
are the reason why you're filling up the
seats and they they deserve that money
>> and not every one of them is going to be
in the NFL, right?
>> You know what I mean? Some of them
that's their window to make that
money. You know what I mean? Like it's
hard in the NFL.
>> And the risk of catastrophic injury is
always there
>> is constant constant. Yeah.
>> And and and the the the metrics for it's
like what is it a two two and a half
year career or something
>> depending on your position. But I mean
it's it's such a
>> that seems just fair and obvious. So you
pay a kid to flip a cheeseburger out of
college, but not to like, you know, come
on.
>> Well, that's the great thing about doing
something where you're not relying on
your body like acting.
>> You can you can kind of do it forever,
you know?
>> Yeah. Keep going till you lose it, you
know what I mean? It's really Yeah, it's
great. And it's got its own competitive
aspect and it's a lot, you know, but
>> like, okay, great. If it's if you will
bet on yourself and then the expectation
is, well, I got to do something that's
interesting enough that people want to
watch it. Well, that's the proposition
anyway. How do you guys decide like on
projects that you you choose? Like I'm
sure you have so many options now. Like
what what makes you say this is what I'm
going to spend the next six months
doing?
>> It's really I mean there are a bunch of
different factors like like the director
is being the most important one. But but
if you read a script and and like we've
read so many thousands and thousands of
scripts and written so many scripts and
worked on so many movies that that if if
we read something and it and it it's
that thing we were talking about
earlier, you know, you get that get that
kind of emotional something happens when
you read it. you go, "Okay, well," then
you then you pay attention to it, maybe
read it again, go, "Wait a minute." You
know, if it if it if it moves you in
that in that way, then, you know,
ultimately the big decision is saying
yes because
>> because you're going to spend
>> Yeah. the last point over which you have
>> total control, right?
>> You know, and then you're in.
>> Then you're in and and you're and you're
in whether it's good or bad. I mean,
I've been on those movies where I knew a
month into a six-month shoot that like
this is not going to work. [laughter]
And that that is that is the
>> it's just the worst.
>> It is I I I came to think of that. It
happened to me.
>> They're going to shoot us all when it
comes out.
>> Yeah. Okay. [laughter]
>> It's like it's all bad.
>> Go to work. You know,
>> it's like it's it's going to be it's
going to be 80 16 hour days in a row and
then uh a a post-production period
that's going to be pretty fraught and
then it's going to come out and we're
going to get crushed
>> and then you're going to have to sell
it. You're going to have to walk the
plank and sit down with access.
>> You know what I mean? like so saw the
movie. How important is that stuff still
today? Like the press stuff, is that
still important?
>> It is. I don't know to what degree each
specific thing is. I mean,
>> it's kind of ironic because we were
talking about coming on this show today
and we were saying I was like doing this
show more meaningful in than the rest of
the we do in aggregate to promote
this movie. Like we spent this whole
week in New York doing, you know, I
don't know how many interviews, you
know, the the quick ones with all the
outlet,
>> five minute interviews, all the the the
evening shows, the day shows,
>> all that stuff and and this just given
how many people listen to the show will
be more meaningful. We think I mean
that's our we were speculating but
>> his historically right if you look at it
that's it because they've changed to
like all of it feels kind of produced
and forced and advertised and and people
have become resistant to anything that
feels kind of like a gimmick and a
shtick and you go on and you do your
song and dance and they say the thing it
looks great and you and nobody cares
like they're looking to go either
because somebody they know says it's
interesting or somebody that they is
trusted and a trusted person is in like
your like you say your feed right and
it's your friend or your your cousin or
or they affix that to somebody which has
become a more rare thing like who's a
like a legitimate neutral arbiter,
right? Who I can't predict what they're
going to say before I go there. There
are few of those fewer and fewer of
those people in the world even those are
proliferation of more and more voices
and I it's kind of paradoxical like the
form of entertainment is getting shorter
and shorter and shorter. So you're like
a 7-second, you know, we had an
advertising company. We we do most of
the spots that we release like 15-second
spots, six-second spots for social, the
ones most people see. And then there's
this one form, which is like long form
discussions that are whatever two hours
long. And the amazing to me is, you
know, in a world where it seems like you
can't get people to pay attention for
more than, you know, a few seconds,
there's a kind of a hunger for that. So
there's like this form and that's why
you see these are getting more popular.
obviously have this massive audience and
it's and it it's kind of flying in the
face of the whole other trend and I
think and I don't know that it probably
has something to do with like who do I
think is authentic and am I actually
going to willing to extend my two hours
of my time to sit there and listen
through and and that an argument that
people probably do appreciate and
understand conversations that have
context and nuance and where there's
like a back and forth. They're just much
more selective about who they're willing
to kind of
give that sort of voice to in their
life.
>> It's also the voice of the public, too,
because when people start talking about
things online and things go viral online
and people just start like saying how
great they love the film or how great
this album is or something like that, it
just takes off organically now.
>> Yeah. And that has more more weight than
anything. If you feel like somebody else
who obviously has no dog in the fight is
going, "Hey, this is great. You should
see I'm the same thing. If I hear
somebody tell me like, you know, who I
respect, hey, you got to see that thing,
that means more to me than anything,
right? Because I believe that. And so if
the closer you can get to that, which is
why that I think the act of a like
telling the same, you know, like telling
the same like story about you should go
see the movie to a bunch of people with
a certain like limited reach, it's just
it's just not that efficient. But you
have to because it's like well we sat
down with our own Trisha Zanaka and
talked about the mo you know and you
kind of do that ostensibly because it
means a little bit more in that in that
market. But I think ultimately it's it's
like more and more people see realize
they're being sold to see through the
act and the sort of of
it. They recognize that you know you go
out and sell every movie. You know what
I mean? The good and the bad. And then
we got to decide well which one and and
who can you count on? Well, it's mostly
going to be that like the word of mouth,
your friend, and and now you can see
that person in your media experience,
you know.
>> Yeah. And I think it's also we know that
when you're sitting down with extra or
these like that's just their job to sit
down with people, they're not doing it
because they want to, right?
>> You know, it's like they got told go
talk to that person.
>> And we got told go talk to them. So, we
go do the ritual and they say the thing
they say and we say the thing we say
>> and everyone goes home and says we did
our job.
>> That's the benefit of an independent
podcast is that like like with me I
don't talk to anybody I don't want to
talk to. It's just like I
[clears throat] I I literally do the
whole thing on my phone. I go oh yeah
that sounds cool and that's it.
>> But like that I think means a lot at
least this person is making this choice
and I've listened to it a bunch and I I
actually find myself agreeing with it a
lot of the time. I'm so hard right I'll
give it a shot that you know it's
exactly
>> I think also like this format like at
least I know why it why I started
listening to podcasts was because uh in
in the world like the the divisive kind
the way everybody was talking these
sound bites and all this and and
and it was just like the ability to just
listen to human beings talk often who
who had different points of view but
like had a civil conversation
>> Yeah. was like was such a welcome thing,
you know, given the given the kind of
the hysterical
kind of, you know, uh, frenzy of of of
of divisiveness that's kind of it just
feels it's just like,
>> you know, the it's like I if I open my
phone and look at the news, I like
>> It's like, put it down. It's just it's
it's like uh I feel my cortisol level go
up. and to actually hear people be
listen to people I know I don't agree
with but listen to them and just and
just think about it. You know what I
mean? I mean approach life with a little
bit of humility.
>> Not hold on to what you believe
obviously but but but keep listening.
>> It's also there's not a lot of
opportunities in the real world to have
long conversations with people. So
people are kind of starving for that.
>> I know. Isn't it funny that this has
become the shared cultural like we
listen to that podcast and then actually
experience that because and also people
why don't people trust the media? Well,
because the media doesn't do that
because they compress it and because the
truth it's money because actually doing
that is not with money. it's just
ratings and the perceived idea that like
well if you simplify it or you you
position it one way or that you engender
outrage um that's simple or just you
know pure one-sided ideas that are that
are simple um you know but the news used
to be the idea was look here's the FCC
we're going to let these networks
broadcast their shows and make money on
it but here's the deal you got to give
an hour of that and lose money on that
hour to tell the news and try to tell it
objectively then it started to be no you
got to make money for for that hour too.
And if you're going to make money,
that's a different incentive than tell
the truth or reports or any of those
things. And people try to hybridize
them, but at the end of the day, you're
a more successful reporter if more
people watch you because advertisers pay
more and then they're doing the same
thing, looking at their data, you know,
grand what are people watching, what
kinds of stories and and I I think this
is simple answers because you're just
you're making it into a profit game.
those incentives are not aligned with
>> just trying to get down to like even
reporting basic facts.
>> Yeah. It's a weird time. It's like we
have more access to information than
ever before, but so much of it is just
horseshit.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, it's it's hard to stay
balanced. Yeah.
>> And I think that's why it's good to like
listen to people just talk
>> and and then you recognize like the
flaws in their thinking. You feel ego.
You feel deception. You know,
>> it's true. people will reveal
themselves. Like you actually we
actually don't need that many
editorialists to be constantly telling
us what to think and how to think.
People actually have pretty good
instincts. You know, if someone's
bullshitting you eventually, they'll
kind of hang themselves. Like you said,
you'll get that vibe. Uh after a while,
he kind of started repeating his
sticktick and I kind of he didn't really
talk about what I was wondering about.
And you form your own that's like
forming your own judgment.
>> Pete Buddhajed actually talked about
that being dangerous on podcasts. He's
like, "Because you you go on there and
you have your points, but you'll get
revealed over the course of a few
hours." Like, you can only stick to
these lines.
>> Yeah. You get talking points and
for and then
>> and then what happens is people just
like there was an art to like look at
how great the communicator they stick to
the message and they do their points. We
Okay, 30 seconds, 60 seconds. But any
longer than that, it just starts to look
like a robot on, you know, and
like I said, what we need to follow
through with, you know, I saw you do the
same hand gesture and the same bit with
that, but you know,
>> sometimes you find out they're full of
just by having them talk about
other things.
>> You know, like tell me, do you like
cooking? You know, like just like and
then you just see like some concocted
>> they're thinking what makes me look good
if about cooking that I should
>> Well, I tell you what, because Americans
[laughter]
exactly it like
>> do I cook or do I not? What what would I
>> Does that make me feminine or does it
make me open to cultural? You It's just
like,
>> yeah,
>> what do you like to cook, man? I don't
cook. You know,
>> well, that's the other thing about
people that are online too much is
they're so concerned with other people's
opinions that they don't have enough
time to formulate their own.
>> They're just so concerned with how
people are going to perceive everything
you say that you're like handcuffed.
You're like terrified to misspeak.
>> Right. Right.
>> I think that in general is a real
danger. I mean, you we were
talking the other day, we were saying
about like one of the ver benefits of
getting older and and doing this for a
long time is
>> you realize like nobody really gives a
as much about you as you thought.
You know, you just kind of nobody gives
a Nobody remembers. You
>> spend your 20s and 30s thinking like
this is really important and then you
realize no one come [laughter]
off and what's going to be no one
actually cares. It's not that big a
deal. Nobody
>> most people are mostly worrying about
themselves in their life and they Yeah.
There's this illusion that they pay a
passing moment of attention or it's in
some story or it's like you're
staring at it because it's about you,
right? You know, you know that you said
that about me. Nobody else really
>> Nobody cares.
>> And if they do, they're usually
up. Like something's wrong. Why
concentrate on this other person's life?
>> You're probably trying to ignore your
own right?
>> Yeah.
>> Well, listen, man. Your movie is
awesome. Uh I've loved so much of your
your films over the years, so it's been
really cool to be able to have you guys
in here and talk about this. It's been
great.
>> Thanks for having us.
>> Two very normal, nice movie stars.
[laughter]
>> You guys are cool as
>> Give us a couple more hours.
>> Yeah, exactly.
>> I enjoyed it. And I really enjoyed the
rip. It's great. And uh
everybody go see it. It's great. I loved
it. Thank you. Thanks for being here.
All right. Pleasure.
>> Bye, everybody.
[music]