[00:01] Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.
[00:04] >> The Joe Rogan Experience.
[00:06] >> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY
[00:08] NIGHT. All day.
[00:12] >> That's wild. I went in [music] cuz I
[00:14] came in from I am I think I was living
[00:16] at the time and I went in and uh and uh
[00:20] I'm sitting in the waiting room and it
[00:22] was like on a Sunday because it was I
[00:23] was like I'm only in town for and Stan
[00:25] was like I'll come into the office. I'm
[00:26] like thank you so much. I had to have
[00:28] some a filling or whatever I
[00:29] [clears throat] needed. It's a kind of
[00:30] an emergency. So, I'm sitting in the
[00:32] thing and uh and I'm not getting called
[00:36] in, but the the the lad just No, no,
[00:38] there's not even a receptionist. And
[00:40] Stan comes out with his mask on. No, the
[00:42] first thing I hear is PIG
[00:44] PIG [laughter] AND
[00:46] I'm like, what is happening in there?
[00:47] It's in the other room. And Stan comes
[00:49] in with his mask on. He goes, he goes,
[00:51] sorry. He goes, I'll be with you soon.
[00:52] He goes, I got Hunter in the chair. And
[00:54] he goes [laughter] back and I hear
[00:55] listen to to Hunter Thompson swear for
[00:58] like 15 minutes. I'm like, "This is
[00:59] amazing." And then Stan goes, "Okay,
[01:01] come on back." And Hunter's kind of
[01:02] getting out and he goes, "Oh, you're
[01:04] sitting down with this guy. He's a
[01:06] assassin." [laughter]
[01:09] And then he goes and he's got this jug
[01:12] of clear uh of clear fluid and he's
[01:16] like, "You're going to need a sip of
[01:17] this." And I'm like, "Oh my god, this is
[01:19] Hunter S. Thompson's moonshot."
[01:21] [laughter] I'm like, "This is ethyl
[01:22] alcohol." Like this is amazing.
[01:25] I'm talking to this dude for 30 seconds
[01:27] and I'm getting a sip and like
[01:29] [laughter] and it was like 10:00 in the
[01:30] morning on a Sunday.
[01:31] >> Yeah.
[01:32] >> He was halfway through the drug
[01:35] like where was this
[01:36] >> in Beverly Hills? [laughter] Yeah. Yeah.
[01:40] >> Yeah. Brentwood. Yeah. Brentwood was
[01:41] stand office. Yeah.
[01:42] >> Oh my god. That's amazing. It was it
[01:44] really was amaz It was it was and I so I
[01:46] had probably a total of seven minutes,
[01:48] you know, with him and it was like I I I
[01:50] it could I could not have been a better
[01:52] seven minutes.
[01:52] >> That's incredible. I went to the Woody
[01:55] Creek Tavern just to go there cuz I know
[01:56] he used to go there and like you could
[01:58] like feel him in the building. You know,
[02:00] there's all the pictures in the walls.
[02:02] It's cool little place.
[02:03] >> I mean those books Hell's Angels
[02:05] and and you know, Fear and Loathing is
[02:07] some of the best writing. I I just
[02:09] like he really had his own
[02:11] voice. Rum Diary was spectacular, you
[02:14] know? It was like really descriptive and
[02:15] punchy and interesting and
[02:17] up. And he also just lived that
[02:19] life. It was like
[02:19] >> Fear and Loathing changed my life. Like
[02:21] reading that book was like, "What the
[02:23] fuck?" Like, "What is this guy doing?
[02:26] [laughter]
[02:26] Grown men out there balding grown men
[02:29] with spectacles running around.
[02:31] >> I think there's lizards in the
[02:33] [laughter] lounge. Like, you guys are
[02:34] loosening." And he's got a day trip bag
[02:38] filled with acid. Like, what the
[02:40] are you doing, man? That was [snorts]
[02:42] and it's great It's like you're
[02:43] you feel like you're on the
[02:45] adventure with him, you know?
[02:46] >> Yeah. No, it's a it's it's interesting
[02:49] to watch the the evolution of his
[02:50] writing too, you know? Like I read
[02:52] Hell's Angels and it's like very
[02:54] different, you know, but it's
[02:55] >> and that's early when he's kind of
[02:56] restrained and it was quite like for
[02:58] that I think it was edgy sort of for the
[03:00] time, you know, like oh you're going to
[03:01] get beat and chain whipped and stomped
[03:03] by the angels and that was really edgy
[03:05] and by the time they got to what was
[03:06] fairly 72 or something like that,
[03:09] >> you know, he was just
[03:10] >> Yeah, he was there. He found his voice.
[03:12] >> He did find [laughter] he was supposed
[03:14] to be covering a race for like Sports
[03:17] Illustrated. [laughter]
[03:18] >> That's where Fear and Loathing came
[03:20] from. But I lost my mind.
[03:23] [laughter]
[03:24] >> Great. It's great, Hunter.
[03:26] >> We'll take it.
[03:27] >> Well, hey, it's very nice to meet you
[03:28] guys. I've met you before, but very nice
[03:30] to meet, man. Thank you very much. I
[03:32] love the movie. The rip is
[03:34] great. It's really good. It's so
[03:36] original and it's so it's so different
[03:38] and it's, you know, it's like I love
[03:40] those kind of movies, but it's not like
[03:42] any one that I've ever seen before.
[03:45] Really solid movie.
[03:45] >> Thanks, dude. Thank you.
[03:46] >> It was awesome. so [clears throat] much
[03:48] better than you hating it and having
[03:49] [laughter]
[03:50] the interviews where they're like, "So,
[03:51] I saw the movie anyway. How you guys
[03:52] been?"
[03:53] >> We've had we've had a lot of those the
[03:54] junk the press junkets where they come
[03:56] in and the first thing that you know the
[03:58] movie sucks if if they don't ask you
[04:00] anything about the movie, they come in,
[04:01] they go, "So, how you been?"
[04:02] >> You know, and you're like, "Oh
[04:03] this is going to be bad."
[04:04] >> Is it weird like the the transformation
[04:08] of the film industry seems to like a lot
[04:10] of it is moving towards these big
[04:12] streaming movies now?
[04:14] >> Absolutely. I mean, look, it's because
[04:16] where most people have gone to watch
[04:18] them, right? Like,
[04:19] >> used to be the only place you go see
[04:21] movies in the 40s. Like, every American
[04:23] went to the movie every week basically.
[04:24] But it was because it was that or watch
[04:26] the cows walk by. You know, that was the
[04:28] only and then TV comes around. It's
[04:30] little and you see these little cals.
[04:33] But you know what happened was now this
[04:34] is why this totally changed the whole
[04:37] thing because you got 300 million people
[04:39] 330 whatever it is watching you know
[04:41] Netflix and it's a lot harder to get
[04:44] people to go into the movies. There's
[04:45] also YouTube. There's also Tik Tok.
[04:46] There's also my kids like it's hard to
[04:48] get them excited about a movie. Yeah.
[04:50] That's what we had. I mean
[04:52] >> Yeah. That was our I mean our teen years
[04:55] were just every weekend we're at the
[04:56] movies.
[04:57] >> Yeah.
[04:57] >> Um there's just no question about it.
[04:59] that you were going to go and usually
[05:00] not get into one cuz there were too many
[05:01] people and then you just see what else
[05:02] is playing and go to that.
[05:04] >> Well, it seems like it was kind of
[05:05] slipping away because so many people
[05:06] were watching streaming already and then
[05:08] CO came around and everyone was locked
[05:10] down and no one was going to the movie
[05:12] theater and then it just set it.
[05:14] >> I had this like drama that was coming
[05:15] out like right when CO hit. I really
[05:18] like the movie performance movie. It's
[05:19] an alcoholic guy whose kid guys kid dies
[05:22] and becomes an alcoholic. It's dark
[05:24] movie but I I loved it and I could tell
[05:26] like we're No one's going to go
[05:27] to see the theater, see this movie. And
[05:29] it wasn't even that streaming streaming
[05:30] really blew up, you know, of course
[05:32] during co. So, you know, look, they
[05:34] rushed it onto streaming. People
[05:35] actually saw it. I was like, look, all
[05:37] things being equal, I'd like people to
[05:38] see it, you know, and it's not like my
[05:40] dad had an 11in black and white TV and
[05:42] that's what was TV viewing now. It's
[05:44] like $200, you got a 65 in flat
[05:46] screen like and good sound. So, of
[05:48] course, people are willing to and then
[05:50] streamers also started making great
[05:52] shows. You have adolescence. I don't
[05:54] know if you saw. I think that's one of
[05:55] the best things ever done.
[05:57] >> I haven't seen out of unbelievable.
[05:58] >> What is it?
[05:59] >> Oh my god. It's a It's a It's I I don't
[06:02] want to spoil too much of it. It's only
[06:03] four episodes.
[06:04] >> They're all one shot.
[06:05] >> They're all one shot. Each episode is
[06:07] one entire shot.
[06:08] >> Whoa.
[06:08] >> So, the cast they took, I think, I
[06:10] talked to the director about it. The
[06:11] cast took I think a week to rehearse
[06:13] each one and then a week to shoot it.
[06:16] And so, so they they do it twice a day.
[06:18] It's the full hour. They would
[06:20] choreograph the entire thing. Yeah.
[06:22] That's really
[06:23] >> And then the acting is great.
[06:24] >> But that's that I mean just dismiss that
[06:27] even you could even call it a gimmick.
[06:29] It's not in this case. But um the
[06:32] performances and the writing and what
[06:34] it's about it's it's as good as anything
[06:37] you'll see. It's it's phenomenal.
[06:39] >> What is it on?
[06:39] >> Netflix.
[06:40] >> Netflix. Yeah.
[06:41] >> You know, you have like it's not this is
[06:43] not even an anomaly. There's Baby
[06:44] Rangers. There's Succession.
[06:45] There's Game of Thrones, Ozarks. You
[06:48] know, it's just like, okay, well,
[06:50] they're doing great out there. It's
[06:52] not like the sort of implied thing
[06:54] before was like, yeah, well, TV's not as
[06:56] good. We're not as interesting. It's a
[06:58] serious
[06:58] >> When we started, it was a there was a
[07:00] different I I mean, like George Clooney,
[07:01] for instance, like there was a big
[07:03] thing, you know, he very famously, you
[07:05] know, became this superstar on ER. That
[07:08] show, 40 million people a week were
[07:09] watching that show. It was the biggest
[07:11] thing, right? Because [snorts] there
[07:12] were only a few channels to tune into,
[07:14] and that show was the biggest one. and
[07:15] and George never renegotiated his
[07:18] contract. He wanted to work in movies
[07:19] and it was like you can't go from TV to
[07:21] movie. It's very hard. Very few people
[07:23] can do it
[07:24] >> and he really strategically and kind of
[07:27] patiently like he joked that on the last
[07:30] episode he was on Anthony Edwards, you
[07:32] know, his co-star was making a million
[07:34] bucks for the episode and he was making,
[07:36] you know, 20 grand or whatever his deal
[07:38] was. Like he could have renegotiated but
[07:40] he would have had to give more years.
[07:41] >> That's how bad he wanted to get off TV
[07:44] and do movies. That's how bad he wanted
[07:45] to get off of the biggest TV show in the
[07:47] world. Um because the there was such a
[07:50] big kind of level change between
[07:51] features and and TV.
[07:53] >> Well, it was a giant difference in
[07:54] quality. It was also this the breaking
[07:56] it up for commercials, right?
[07:58] >> It was just a different experience.
[07:59] >> It couldn't be, you know, there was all
[08:00] these rules like you can't say this, you
[08:02] can't do that, you can't swear of
[08:04] violence and n all the things people
[08:05] want to see in movies, you know, and
[08:06] then
[08:07] >> and also it wasn't it wasn't as
[08:09] interesting. And then now that's like
[08:11] tethered to these schedules and all this
[08:12] stuff or you get this like you
[08:14] don't have a schedule and and you can
[08:16] take a bunch of risks. So and that
[08:18] started happening and then it was kind
[08:20] of like well this all is just as good if
[08:22] not better than what's in the movies and
[08:24] >> well then movies started to move towards
[08:25] more IP and
[08:27] >> because it was hard to get people come
[08:28] to the movies. everyone got scared and
[08:29] thought, well, you have it there has to
[08:30] be a sequel or a superhero movie.
[08:32] >> And so an interesting little movie kind
[08:35] of in the '9s when we kind of came onto
[08:37] the scene, you know, there were a lot of
[08:39] really good independent movies that were
[08:40] being made. There was there was, you
[08:42] know, it was a really great time to be
[08:44] making movie. People were they were
[08:46] making daring movies and and and then
[08:48] everyone just got way more conservative
[08:51] because it's huge. Like the business is
[08:53] so different theatrically and streaming
[08:55] because to put out a movie theatrically,
[08:58] you have to put so much more money
[08:59] behind it to publicize. Like you're
[09:02] trying to get everybody
[09:03] >> spending about what the budget was to
[09:04] make it to advertise it because you got
[09:06] 50% of the theatrical.
[09:07] >> Yeah. Because you split it with the the
[09:08] the movie house, right? The exhibit.
[09:10] >> So $25 million movie to break in. You
[09:11] got to make $100 million. And so and and
[09:14] you got to get everybody to not only
[09:16] know about the movie but to show up like
[09:18] that Friday night like that specific
[09:20] time, you know, for that specific movie.
[09:22] And so did and to cut through all the
[09:23] noise that you people are contending
[09:26] with. And you know,
[09:26] >> so it just becomes about risk and nobody
[09:28] wants to take the risk. So they don't
[09:29] want to make something new because it's
[09:30] such an investment. We're going to lose
[09:31] all our money. And the streamers
[09:34] stepped into that and like no, you know,
[09:36] you didn't have to necessarily have a
[09:37] star. You could try something more
[09:38] interesting or didn't have to be a
[09:40] superhero movie, whatever it was. And
[09:42] also, I think it's like, you know,
[09:44] frankly, like people my age, like it's
[09:47] first of all, it's expensive, right? You
[09:48] take your whole family, it's $100.
[09:50] You're on a streaming service, $20 a
[09:51] month. You can watch all you want. So,
[09:52] you can't be cavalier about like you're
[09:55] just going to price it however the
[09:56] you want and expect everyone to like be
[09:58] indifferent to that. And then, you know,
[10:00] also,
[10:02] you know, the idea of like for me, you
[10:04] know, there's a lot of stuff I make that
[10:05] decision like, do I want to see the
[10:07] Odyssey on on a big screen? def.
[10:09] I went to a theater to just watch the
[10:10] trailer for that movie and you know did
[10:12] I at one battle after another I wanted
[10:13] to go see in the theater but there's
[10:15] movies with people that I really like
[10:16] and respect where yeah and I got a good
[10:18] system and but I'm like look I'll
[10:20] watch and I might get tired or I won't
[10:22] pause it and take a piss or the kids you
[10:23] know whatever it is
[10:25] >> that's conducive to my lifestyle you
[10:27] know and so and most I see few I think
[10:29] most people are yeah
[10:30] >> but there is the experience of seeing it
[10:32] with a bunch of other people see an
[10:33] awesome movie with a bunch of other
[10:34] people it's like a shared experience
[10:36] >> 100% I I always like
[10:39] way more attent like like when I went to
[10:41] see one battle on IMAX like you know
[10:43] that feeling there's nothing like that
[10:45] feeling I took you know two of my kids
[10:46] and two of my nephews and my wife and we
[10:49] all went and it was just it was like and
[10:51] you're in with you know a bunch of
[10:53] strangers but people in your community
[10:55] and you're having this experience
[10:56] together. I always say it's more like
[10:58] going to going to church like you show
[11:00] up at an appointed time you you know
[11:02] what I mean? doesn't,
[11:04] you know, the the experience of watching
[11:08] at home. I think,
[11:09] >> you know, you're watching in a room, the
[11:10] lights are on, other shit's going on,
[11:12] the kids are running around, the dogs
[11:13] are running around, whatever it is. You
[11:15] know what I mean? It's just a very
[11:16] different level of attention that you're
[11:18] willing to or that you're able to give
[11:20] to it. And that has a big effect. And it
[11:22] also ends up having an effect or is
[11:24] starting to have an effect on how you
[11:27] make movies. Like for instance, Netflix
[11:30] um you know standard way to make an
[11:32] action movie that we learned was you
[11:34] know you usually have like three set
[11:36] pieces. One in the first act, one in the
[11:38] second, one in the third and you know
[11:39] you kind they kind of ramp up and the
[11:41] big one with all the explosions and you
[11:42] spend most of your money on that one in
[11:44] the third act. That's your kind of
[11:45] finale. Um and now they're, you know,
[11:48] they're like can we get a big one in the
[11:50] first five minutes to get somebody, you
[11:51] know, we want people to stay
[11:53] >> Yeah. tuned in and and can and you know
[11:56] it wouldn't be terrible if you
[11:58] reiterated the plot three or four times
[12:00] in the dialogue because people are on
[12:02] their phones while they're watching.
[12:03] [laughter]
[12:03] You know what I mean?
[12:04] >> And so then it's going to really start
[12:06] to infringe on how we're telling
[12:09] >> but then you look at adolescence who
[12:10] didn't do any of that. It
[12:11] >> didn't do any of that great. You
[12:13] know what I mean? So I think it's and
[12:14] it's dark too. It's tragic and intense.
[12:17] this like guy who's finds out these kids
[12:20] accused of murder and it's like you know
[12:23] and and there's long shots in the back
[12:25] of their head. They get in the car,
[12:26] nobody says anything. I think there are
[12:28] those look the these were feels more
[12:31] like the exception. It's so masterfully
[12:34] [snorts] made that it feels a little
[12:36] more like the except I hope it's not. My
[12:37] feeling is just that it demonstrates
[12:39] that you don't need to do any of that
[12:40] to get people, you know what I
[12:42] mean? Like,
[12:42] >> and I think, you know, yes, you know,
[12:44] like, look, hey, the town had the action
[12:46] thing in the beginning, the first five
[12:47] minutes cuz, you know what I mean? Like,
[12:49] it's a it's a common trick that you
[12:50] would go like, let me grab them and get
[12:52] him invested in the it's like the movies
[12:54] that start with the hero hanging from
[12:55] the cliff and now we're going to flash
[12:57] back to the beginning and tell you how
[12:58] they got there. Um it's it you know I
[13:02] always feel like uh you know complaining
[13:04] about it makes me feel like one of these
[13:05] guys was like when I was a boy like you
[13:06] always want to freeze the culture at the
[13:08] time when you I don't know felt more
[13:10] like you know we used to have these
[13:12] phones the are all these phone and
[13:13] everybody's looking at their I get it
[13:15] yes it's true also it's like supply and
[13:18] demand people want to look at their
[13:19] phone they can look at TikTok they want
[13:20] you know they're going to do that I
[13:22] think what you can do is make the
[13:24] best you can make it really good and you
[13:27] know people can still go to the movies
[13:29] it's not I think we have this idea of
[13:30] that's like an existential threat.
[13:32] Everything that comes along is going to
[13:33] destroy everything instead of like
[13:36] >> what history suggests is that there's
[13:37] like marginal encroachments. Things
[13:39] shift. Yep. As television came along,
[13:41] there was less theater going and that's
[13:43] still going to happen. And people are
[13:44] still going to go to the movies because
[13:45] of what you said. Like it feels like a
[13:46] cool thing to do. I'm going to go see
[13:48] The Odyssey. I guarantee you in a
[13:50] theater, you know, no matter what fewer
[13:52] of them, you could argue that's because
[13:54] I have more choice or whatever it is.
[13:56] It's hard to fight supply and demand.
[13:58] That's the trick, right? If people want
[14:00] to watch a bunch of stuff at home
[14:01] because they invested in TVs and cost us
[14:04] money, they will. So, okay. But the
[14:06] upside of that is like I can try to do
[14:10] something hopefully that's like that
[14:11] actually doesn't need to, you know, have
[14:14] the most urgency to get you to come to
[14:16] the theater with your family. That's a
[14:18] little more experimental or risk-taking
[14:19] or whatever in that way.
[14:20] >> Well, you got to adapt. I mean, there's
[14:22] no way you're going to change people's
[14:23] viewing habits now. Yeah. I mean, what
[14:25] percentage of Netflix is actually
[14:27] watched on phones has got to be pretty
[14:29] high, which is insane.
[14:31] >> Yeah.
[14:32] >> Even watching on a laptop for me is kind
[14:34] of like kind of sucks. You know,
[14:36] >> it sucks.
[14:36] >> That's a joke that I [clears throat]
[14:38] like to make with every director I work
[14:39] with. Like when they're really puzzling
[14:41] over a shot or really grinding out
[14:43] something, I go, you know, it's not
[14:44] going to look as good on the phone when
[14:46] [laughter]
[14:46] they just everyone gets angry.
[14:49] >> Takes the weight out of their
[14:51] sales, you [laughter] know? No, that's
[14:52] going to look great this bigs.
[14:54] But keep around and lighting
[14:55] that wall.
[14:56] >> It is weird though the the concern for
[14:58] the algorithm like making sure that
[14:59] people watch like look we've got data
[15:01] that shows within the first five minutes
[15:03] when this happens they tune out. So
[15:04] let's like my buddy Tony Hinchcliffe you
[15:06] know he's got Kill Tony and now it's on
[15:08] Netflix and so they're giving him notes
[15:10] now and they can give him like but
[15:12] they're not telling him what to do but
[15:13] they're saying like this is when people
[15:14] are tuning out and so let's you know
[15:17] just so you have that data now decide
[15:19] how you want to edit things. It's like,
[15:21] >> yeah, it is because because the
[15:26] >> it's like the the bar for for
[15:30] walking out of a movie theater is a lot
[15:32] higher than from just changing the
[15:34] channel. Right.
[15:35] >> Right. And often times, you know, you
[15:38] directors will want to make a movie that
[15:39] is challenging and upsetting. And I
[15:42] remember Terry Kenny, my my friend,
[15:44] great actor, and he he told me about the
[15:46] experience of seeing Taxi Driver in New
[15:48] York for the first time, right, in 76 or
[15:51] whenever it came out. And he said, "What
[15:54] I remember is not only the movie, but I
[15:56] remember standing at the back because I
[15:58] had got up. I got up out of my seat and
[16:00] I went, but I couldn't bring myself to
[16:02] leave because I was so invested, but I
[16:04] was so he was standing at the back by
[16:06] the door watching the movie." And he
[16:07] goes, "And there were two other people
[16:09] standing next to me who were doing the
[16:10] same thing
[16:11] >> just cuz they were disturbed
[16:12] >> because the movie was disturbing them so
[16:14] much." Wow.
[16:15] >> Which is not a bad thing, right? So had
[16:17] that been on on Netflix or Amazon, you
[16:19] know, if somebody say, "Oh, I'm
[16:20] disturbed." And they turn and they
[16:22] change the channel.
[16:22] >> Yeah.
[16:23] >> Like that doesn't mean you shouldn't
[16:24] make Taxi Driver,
[16:25] >> right? That's true. Like the investment
[16:27] of going to a place is much greater.
[16:30] >> Yeah. And one of the values of that is
[16:31] that you could you look at movies from
[16:32] the 70s, the first act was 25, 30
[16:35] minutes, right? You know, the verdict
[16:36] for a great movie takes a long time to
[16:38] get
[16:39] >> the deer hunter. Yeah. I mean, that's
[16:41] >> and and you're right, like what you're
[16:42] saying, the threshold for walk out is
[16:44] really like any scene like, ah, I want
[16:46] to watch Naked Alone, like whatever, you
[16:48] know, you flip the So, you're
[16:50] you are battling that. And you know,
[16:52] >> I watched Lemon's the other night, Steve
[16:55] McQueen, and there's no one talks for
[16:57] like five minutes. There's no talking.
[16:59] It's just a bunch of stuff getting done,
[17:00] just a bunch of people doing things. And
[17:02] it's like, wow, you could make a diff.
[17:04] You could let it air out back then.
[17:06] Yeah.
[17:06] >> It was they had a different respect for
[17:09] what it was. Like you were telling a
[17:11] story and you're going to let it air
[17:13] out.
[17:13] >> Well, they also knew where their
[17:14] audience was. They were in a theater
[17:16] that they
[17:17] >> part of it was they wanted to come
[17:18] there. I mean, this great story I like
[17:19] is the first time they they
[17:20] [clears throat] debuted a movie guys
[17:23] with a with a projector in a room full
[17:25] of people. It was a it was a movie of a
[17:27] train pulling into the station. So they
[17:30] put the reel up and they did the
[17:30] demonstration and they showed the people
[17:32] and everybody missed it because they
[17:34] were turned around staring at the
[17:35] projector. They never [laughter]
[17:36] seen anything like that, you know? So
[17:38] it's like the techn is upstaging but
[17:40] like you come for an event, come for a
[17:42] thing, we're all going to be here.
[17:43] That's part of it.
[17:45] >> It's um I don't know. There's competing
[17:47] arguments. So you can think, well, what
[17:49] do you get to do? And some people just
[17:50] go ahead and it. Like Jim Cameron's
[17:52] Avatar, I'm going to make my three-hour
[17:54] movie and people are going to come and
[17:56] great. You know what I And people say,
[17:57] "Oh, well, you can't have a three-hour
[17:58] movie." And he's like, "Well, I'm Jim
[18:00] Cameron and I've actually got the number
[18:01] one and two and, you know, movies. I I
[18:03] think I got this." He goes ahead and
[18:05] does it. You know, this history is full
[18:07] of people who got told a bunch of
[18:08] conventional wisdom and we're like,
[18:09] "Yeah, but we're going to do something
[18:11] different." And it, as it turns out,
[18:13] >> like that's actually what people want,
[18:15] too, is not for you to just repeat the
[18:16] other that's been done before and
[18:18] that worked before.
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[19:10] One of the things I read that I thought
[19:11] was really cool is you guys set
[19:13] it up so that if this film performs
[19:16] well, the entire crew gets bonuses.
[19:20] Yeah,
[19:20] >> that's awesome.
[19:22] >> Yeah, hopefully it's successful.
[19:24] [laughter]
[19:25] >> I think you're going to get a house
[19:26] if it doesn't great movie, man. It's a
[19:28] fun movie,
[19:29] >> but it's it's it's good, but it's not
[19:31] like, you know, we're saints or
[19:33] philanthropists. Like, it's completely
[19:34] self- serving in my opinion because in
[19:37] order to do the job well, everybody
[19:39] who's working on it has to be really
[19:40] invested and give a about the
[19:42] result, not their paycheck only. And
[19:44] sometimes you worry the crew that just
[19:46] happen to be great anyway even though
[19:48] they don't really have to care about it
[19:49] and they do. And what we saw was like
[19:52] that makes your movie better. And then
[19:54] there's just the thing of like the
[19:55] business is changing. You see these
[19:57] strikes and work stop all these
[19:59] questions in order for this I think to
[20:01] to survive and to be you know a good
[20:04] middle class art artist you know
[20:07] artisal craftsman job. We got 1,200
[20:10] people that, you know, need to have
[20:12] reliable jobs. And part of the
[20:14] negotiations is always like, yeah, yeah,
[20:16] yeah, but we're all going to get
[20:18] Like, we have no participation. Like,
[20:20] used to working on movies, and it
[20:21] happens to actors, too, where you go,
[20:23] oh, we all invested. It was really hard
[20:25] and we put in the extra effort.
[20:26] Somebody else walked away with all the
[20:29] success
[20:30] >> and you, you know, my theory was was
[20:32] with Matt was we were like, how about
[20:34] where let's say, okay, it's just
[20:35] fairness, right? this thing actually
[20:37] blows up and does really well, you
[20:39] should benefit from that. People have
[20:41] been, you know, kind of given sort of
[20:43] promises of of participation back and
[20:45] that haven't come true. This is like the
[20:47] crew. Everyone got their rates, everyone
[20:48] got their hourly, no one cut anything.
[20:50] This is just an exercise and actually
[20:52] proving that it's not that if
[20:54] there's success, you'll get some extra
[20:57] little success, a little extra, a little
[20:58] more, a little more.
[20:59] >> But also, like you said, because it's
[21:00] fair, you know, and and [clears throat]
[21:02] and in success, the people who made the
[21:05] movie should you know, should
[21:07] participate in that. And and also with
[21:09] this one, which was important to us,
[21:10] there's, you know, they they delineate
[21:12] above the line and below the line,
[21:13] right? Like above the line being like
[21:15] us, the director and the producers,
[21:18] >> um, and below the line being kind of the
[21:20] more bluecollar side of our industry and
[21:22] and
[21:23] >> like painters, grainsmen, camera,
[21:25] everybody else, drivers,
[21:26] >> and so we just wanted we we and believe
[21:29] like when we started this company, we
[21:31] were like, look, you know, we know who
[21:33] makes our movie better, right? It's not
[21:35] it's it's like they've this has kind of
[21:37] been mispriced the whole time. Like the
[21:39] economics have been wrong. Like when
[21:40] there's a when there's a big success,
[21:42] everybody who had a hand on it
[21:44] >> because you see a great director that
[21:45] people rely on or an actor that's
[21:47] considered bankable, they're all going,
[21:48] "Okay, I need all my people with."
[21:50] >> Yeah. Every great director I've worked
[21:51] with, and I've worked with a lot of
[21:52] them, they have their regular crew
[21:54] members that they that are ride or die
[21:57] with these people because I mean, and
[21:58] you said it to me when we were starting
[22:00] the company, you were like,
[22:01] >> you know, those department heads, you
[22:03] know, who are each handling like, you
[22:05] know, cinemat, you know, your camera
[22:06] department, you know, your grip
[22:07] department, your electric, like all
[22:09] these this those people are
[22:12] ultimately the people who make the movie
[22:14] good. Like they make a demonstrable
[22:16] difference in how good your movie is.
[22:17] And imagine once [clears throat] you get
[22:18] a good flow with a great crew, like you
[22:21] got the band. Yeah. Like there's no need
[22:22] to bring in new band members. Let's
[22:24] let's do this again.
[22:24] >> Yeah. And because then and then like you
[22:27] have the situation where they all are
[22:29] filmmakers too. Everybody knows what
[22:30] we're trying to do. So like then what
[22:32] makes it, you know, you're trying to get
[22:34] something special, something
[22:35] interesting, something magical
[22:37] in some moment. You have to like if
[22:39] people are tight or they've been out of
[22:40] shape or, you know, up the
[22:42] environment, people aren't relaxed,
[22:43] actors can't do their best work. And
[22:45] that does make a difference between
[22:47] something that's good, average, great,
[22:49] whatever. And I think that if you say
[22:52] like, you know, it makes cognitive sense
[22:54] to people, but if you look around like
[22:56] what's Colin Anderson, camera operator,
[22:58] right? Not the cinematographer,
[22:59] >> but I would tell you he's the I think
[23:01] he's the greatest camera operator there
[23:02] is in Hollywood. If you want evidence
[23:04] that he shot Marty Supreme, he was a
[23:06] camera opera in one battle after
[23:07] another. You know, he's you look at his
[23:09] resume and you're like, "Oh, that's
[23:11] interesting. These are all great
[23:13] movies." Now, is he personally
[23:14] responsible for all of it? No, because
[23:16] it's a collaborative medium. There is no
[23:18] like you can be a painter and paint by
[23:19] yourself. You can be a novelist and do
[23:20] that, sing, write music. You can't do
[23:23] this job alone. Like there are a lot of
[23:25] people that go into it. You know, even
[23:28] my real like Matt was the lead in the
[23:29] last movie I did air that I directed.
[23:32] Having somebody so good in your
[23:35] movie who also shows up, does his job,
[23:38] is friendly, isn't around or
[23:40] playing games or being weird like that
[23:42] sets this tone. Everybody else kind of
[23:45] goes, "Okay, what's Damon like?" Oh, I
[23:48] see this. We're taking it seriously, but
[23:49] nobody's going to be a dick. We're all
[23:51] going to do our job. We're not going to
[23:52] take ourselves too seriously, but we're
[23:54] gonna take the job really seriously.
[23:56] Immediately, everybody kind of snaps
[23:58] into that. That trickle down effect goes
[24:00] across the whole thing. And the I think
[24:02] the the best thing that I know how to do
[24:04] as a director is just create an
[24:06] environment where people feel like they
[24:08] show up, people like me, they're rooting
[24:10] for me. I can embarrass myself
[24:12] and be bad and it's not going to be in
[24:14] the movie and no one's going to make me
[24:15] feel self-conscious and
[24:16] >> I'm listened to my ideas.
[24:18] >> Yeah. And if I have something to offer,
[24:19] they're going to go, "Oh, that's a good
[24:20] idea." You know what I mean? And that
[24:22] that's kind of the trick to in my view.
[24:25] And then you're depending on the gifts
[24:26] of all these people. Every single one of
[24:28] them, you know, guys was, you know, some
[24:30] woman's assistant uh propm is coming up
[24:33] with like the stuff that, you know, Phil
[24:34] Knight found, you know, his waffle and
[24:36] the shoe, they found it on eBay, like
[24:38] that's an extra mile. You know what I
[24:40] mean? And if you make people feel like
[24:41] it matters and you give a and that
[24:43] they're contributing and oh cool, let's
[24:45] do a close-up of that. That's really
[24:46] cool.
[24:47] >> They'll die for you. They'll go all the
[24:49] way and it changes the whole
[24:51] >> if you bonus them.
[24:53] >> Yeah. [laughter] doesn't hurt either.
[24:54] >> You know, it's not just all, you know,
[24:56] it's it's not just there's an actual
[24:58] like codified bonus structure to say
[25:01] like we
[25:03] >> this is a way of recognizing that
[25:04] right? It's like in your paycheck, too.
[25:05] It's not just real and you guys develop
[25:07] this. Is this so something that you
[25:09] like? Kudos to you guys for addressing
[25:10] this first of all and recognizing it and
[25:13] having that attitude because it's so
[25:14] important and it's so easy for big movie
[25:17] stars to just think about themselves and
[25:18] their own.
[25:19] >> We're communists, Joe. [laughter]
[25:20] >> We're from Cambridge.
[25:24] keep the car running. [laughter]
[25:26] >> No, no, but uh but but each each deal
[25:29] has had this kind of each deal that
[25:31] we've done so far has been different
[25:33] because we've made deals with, you know,
[25:34] different studios and platforms and
[25:37] stuff like that. And
[25:37] >> it just involved us basically
[25:39] retroactively going, "Hey, we came in
[25:41] under we did a great job. There's extra
[25:43] money. Here you go." Mhm.
[25:45] >> This is the first time that we were able
[25:46] to to actually create like a schedule
[25:49] where it's like because and by the way,
[25:51] we wouldn't have been able to do that
[25:52] without Netflix going, "Okay, cool. You
[25:53] think you can make this work? Is this
[25:55] we'll give you a shot. Otherwise, we
[25:56] wouldn't have been able to do it." So,
[25:58] we had to say, "Look, we're not asking
[25:59] you to take a cut, but you know, if if
[26:01] we we can and we can tell you if the
[26:02] movie is watched as many hours in the
[26:05] first 90 days as like this movie a that
[26:07] you all know what it is, then that's you
[26:10] know 20% of your let's say, right? You
[26:12] should take a hit." So it's like, yeah,
[26:14] you make more money, your bonus is more.
[26:15] It's all just pegged to where you're at
[26:17] just because that was the most fair idea
[26:19] we'd come up with.
[26:20] >> So they gave us like five different
[26:21] levels, right? Like the first couple we
[26:24] hopefully we can hit and maybe the third
[26:26] maybe we get and then it got to like the
[26:27] fifth one
[26:28] >> kind of like single double triple home
[26:29] run
[26:29] >> home run grand slam. The fifth
[26:31] one was was 110% of all Netflix viewers
[26:35] or something like that. So it's
[26:36] everybody who has a Netflix account
[26:37] watches it and then like 10% of them
[26:39] watch it again. And we were like K-pop
[26:41] demon this is the biggest but that's
[26:42] what happened. We were laughing and then
[26:44] K-pop Demon Hunters came along and
[26:46] actually did that. That's the first
[26:47] movie that's ever
[26:48] >> Jesus.
[26:49] >> Yeah.
[26:49] >> Well, I think a lot of autistic kids
[26:51] watch that over and over and over.
[26:52] >> I haven't seen I haven't seen [laughter]
[26:54] it, but I I mean somebody's watching it
[26:55] over and over.
[26:56] >> Yeah. So, dude, people love it.
[26:59] >> I mean, it's you know the the the value
[27:02] of it is that because before this one of
[27:03] the big things and everybody's fighting
[27:04] over in the strike is like well share
[27:06] your ch there used to be residuals,
[27:08] right? and residuals and it was only for
[27:09] SAG and a few other things but it was
[27:11] like and you knew if you had a line in
[27:13] the movie and the movie a certain number
[27:14] like at the box office well you're going
[27:16] to get another 2,000 bucks and that was
[27:19] a big deal you get that check in the
[27:20] mail and like okay I can pay the rent
[27:22] for another month and I can do that
[27:23] but then it then there was this like
[27:25] sort of illde what constitutes success
[27:27] because streamer doesn't actually sell
[27:29] another ticket if you watch that movie
[27:31] right it's hard to tell well why did you
[27:33] sign up for this service right so for a
[27:35] while everyone's looking at the first
[27:37] thing that you looked that when you
[27:38] subscribe to somebody, okay, you going
[27:40] to go buy Hulu? What did you watch
[27:42] first? The bear. Well, the bear must be
[27:44] creating value for us. But it's you
[27:46] can't assign a a strict numerical value
[27:48] to it because it's unlike a box office
[27:50] where you can go, well, you know,
[27:52] Oenheimer is a billion dollars or
[27:54] whatever and you know that's another
[27:55] billion dollars on our balance sheet
[27:57] because streamers are doing a
[27:59] subscription model, you know,
[28:01] >> it's, you know, whether it's like a gym
[28:02] membership where in the you
[28:04] know, first of the year you're like, I'm
[28:05] going to work out again. I'm going to
[28:06] buy that annual membership. And you go
[28:08] twice or you go to the gym every single
[28:10] day, you're paying the same amount.
[28:11] >> Also, the weird thing is with streaming,
[28:13] when you're opening up Netflix, it's not
[28:15] like you're going to the movie theater
[28:16] and there's seven movies playing. You're
[28:18] opening up Netflix and you have an
[28:20] unlimited option list. It's insane how
[28:24] much content you could waste the rest of
[28:26] your life sitting in front of Netflix
[28:28] and then die and have, you know,
[28:30] millions of hours more to listen to or
[28:32] watch. And you're right, like when we
[28:34] started researching that and built our
[28:36] own data to poll people and examine all
[28:39] this stuff, it's it's actually all the
[28:41] library stuff that people are watching
[28:43] all the time. if you said like the new
[28:45] stuff is theoretically what what keeps
[28:47] people with the subscription or whatever
[28:48] but in terms of like volume of time I
[28:51] think and doesn't come from them but it
[28:53] looks a lot like you know going to watch
[28:56] like orange and new black and the
[28:57] episode of suits and the old Seinfeld
[28:59] and Friends and what you know um Cupcake
[29:02] Wars or you know that that's what's cuz
[29:04] Americans watch six hours of TV a day
[29:07] right
[29:07] >> that's crazy
[29:09] >> and then the other six hours they're on
[29:10] their phone how [laughter] does anything
[29:12] get done how does anything get done
[29:14] >> when you started to make this film like
[29:16] what what is the process like how did
[29:17] you guys agree on it like what did you
[29:20] guys have it written first
[29:22] >> was Joe so
[29:24] >> before you knew you were going to
[29:25] Netflix with it
[29:26] >> yeah yeah he came to us with the script
[29:28] and we've known Joe for a really he did
[29:29] a movie his first movie is called Narc I
[29:31] don't know if you ever saw terrific
[29:33] great movie
[29:33] >> so we met him way back this 25 years ago
[29:36] or something like that and so we met him
[29:38] met him back then and Ben did a movie of
[29:41] his4 four, I think. And so we've known
[29:44] Joe for a really long time and kind of
[29:46] been in touch with him over the years
[29:47] and and he just sent this to us and said
[29:49] and we read it and we thought it was
[29:50] great and and and and bought it for the
[29:53] company and then we started talking to
[29:56] Joe about, you know, how he saw, you
[29:58] know, how he wanted to do it and and he
[29:59] suggested that we actually do the movie.
[30:02] Um, and we and we were like, "Yeah, why
[30:04] don't we do it? It seems
[30:06] >> basically because we liked and part of
[30:07] it's like we're not trying to just do
[30:09] our movies. We want to be, you know,
[30:12] doing movies with all these the people
[30:13] that we like and respect and and and
[30:15] then, you know, the way we sort of set
[30:16] it up is such that to try to get like
[30:19] the historically the way it's worked is
[30:22] like the, you know, a studio will own a
[30:24] an IB or a script or whatever and then
[30:26] you cut and they'll say, "Okay, we want
[30:27] you to do it." Okay, well, how much?
[30:29] Well, how much did you get for the last
[30:30] one, right? And you go then what's the
[30:31] budget? And then that's how they assign
[30:33] a value to it, right? But like my belief
[30:36] was well especially when these streamers
[30:38] are like coming into the market and and
[30:40] chasing stuff is like this movie may may
[30:42] be worth more it may be worth less and
[30:44] that like we're all just subject to that
[30:46] so we'll try to get the best price for
[30:48] it and we'll all share it you know prata
[30:51] and essentially that that was the same
[30:52] process we've done eight I guess movies
[30:54] or so now and and uh we took it out and
[30:57] you know people wanted it and then one
[30:59] of the things that was really appealing
[31:00] about Netflix was that they were open to
[31:02] this this idea that we've been trying to
[31:04] institutionalize and was like, "Okay,
[31:06] great. That's that's really meaningful
[31:08] because ideally it becomes a template
[31:10] that other people go, hey, we want to do
[31:11] that thing, you know, and then go, oh,
[31:13] here's the paperwork."
[31:14] >> Yeah, that's the thing. Like a lot of
[31:15] people say that they would want to do
[31:17] it, but it now now that template exists.
[31:20] So, it's like plugandplay. So, if you if
[31:22] you're not full of and you really
[31:24] do mean that, then guess what? Just take
[31:25] this and
[31:26] >> and it also is going to let you, you
[31:28] know, I hope like manage the risk. In
[31:31] other words, the argument you always
[31:32] have is like, well, we got to
[31:33] invest all this money in the movie. So,
[31:35] you can't have your protagonist be too
[31:37] objectionable. That's too edgy or can't
[31:39] be R-rated because it costs this. I get
[31:42] it right. You're going to put all your
[31:43] money into it. You want you don't want
[31:44] money to disappear. You want to
[31:46] make money. Okay. So, if like when we
[31:48] wrote the first movie that Goodwill
[31:50] Hunting, it was like we knew that had to
[31:51] be a cheap movie. People talking in
[31:53] rooms to each other because no one's
[31:54] going to put a bunch of money into a
[31:55] movie with us.
[31:56] >> Two that no one heard of. So,
[31:58] it was like, okay, what can we do?
[32:00] That's interesting that and try to keep
[32:01] it as inexpensive as possible so that we
[32:04] can make the argument that someone
[32:05] should make the movie. That same logic
[32:07] like carries through every time you're
[32:09] asking somebody to invest in something.
[32:10] So what I'd like to have happen is to
[32:13] say, okay, now that we know there's a
[32:15] reliable system where we understand that
[32:18] like in success will actually benefit,
[32:20] we can lower, you know, the price
[32:22] upfront for you so that you can have a
[32:24] low barrier to entry so that you
[32:26] can take the risk so that we can do
[32:27] something really interesting. That's
[32:28] that's an original idea. That's a you
[32:31] know that's an ABM or sinners or
[32:33] Marty Supreme or whatever it is and and
[32:36] then if it's successful we're not all
[32:37] sitting here like where you
[32:39] know you guys walk off with all the
[32:40] money but and you can have that happen
[32:42] in an ongoing way so that you can make
[32:44] more interesting stuff. A lot of the
[32:46] stuff that was going on with the strikes
[32:49] was centered around AI and what AI is
[32:52] going to do to the business. like what
[32:54] where do you feel is going to be like
[32:56] the biggest problem with AI? Is it going
[32:58] to be with people's likenesses? Because
[33:00] there's a lot of that where they want
[33:02] they want to use extras and own their
[33:04] digital rights forever essentially be
[33:05] able to recreate them in any kind of
[33:07] film. But then there's also you're going
[33:09] to have films that are written by
[33:12] artificial intelligence. You're going to
[33:14] have scenes that don't involve people.
[33:17] And it gets weird, right?
[33:19] >> It gets really weird. But there's
[33:21] actually an area for him.
[33:22] >> Yeah, we've been spending time looking
[33:24] at this. Like my belief is it's sort of
[33:25] like what's going to happen with
[33:26] electricity.
[33:28] >> Well, a lot of shit's going to happen
[33:29] with electricity. Some of it's going to
[33:30] be good. Some of it's going to change
[33:31] stuff. Some of it's going to be like,
[33:33] you know, this is going to be, you know,
[33:35] that kills a bunch of people. Like,
[33:36] it's it's it's opening a door that you
[33:38] can't um you know, say, well, talk about
[33:41] in a kind of a blanket way. But I think
[33:43] with what I see is like for example, if
[33:45] you try to get Chat GBT or Claude or
[33:48] Gemini to write you something, it's
[33:50] really shitty. And it's shitty because
[33:53] by its nature, it goes to the mean to
[33:55] the average. And it's and it's not
[33:58] reliable. And it's I mean, I just can't
[34:00] even stand to see what writes. Now, it's
[34:02] a useful tool if you're a writer and
[34:04] you're going, "Uh, what's the thing? I'm
[34:06] trying to set something up or somebody
[34:08] sends someone a letter, but it's delayed
[34:09] two days and gets and it can give you
[34:11] some examples of that. I actually don't
[34:13] think it's very likely that it can it's
[34:16] going to be able to write anything
[34:17] meaningful or and in particular that
[34:20] it's going to be making movies like from
[34:22] whole cloth like Tilly Nor like that's
[34:23] I don't think that's going to
[34:24] happen. I think it's not I think it
[34:26] actually it turns out the technology is
[34:28] not progressing in exactly the same way
[34:30] they sort of presented it. Um and really
[34:32] what it is is going to be a tool just
[34:34] like sort of visual effects and yeah it
[34:36] needs to have language around it. You
[34:38] need to protect your name and likeness.
[34:39] You can do that. You can watermark it.
[34:41] You're those laws already exist. You
[34:43] can't I can't sell your picture
[34:44] for money. I can't. You can sue me.
[34:46] Period. I might have the ability to draw
[34:49] you to make you in a very realistic way,
[34:51] but that's already against the law. And
[34:54] the unions are going to I think the
[34:55] guilds are going to manage this where
[34:57] it's like, okay, look, if this is a tool
[35:00] that actually helps us, for example, we
[35:01] don't have to go to the North Pole,
[35:02] right? We can shoot the scene here in
[35:04] our parkas and you know whatever it is
[35:07] and but then make it appear very
[35:09] realistically as if we're in the North
[35:10] Pole. It'll save us a lot of money, a
[35:12] lot of time. We're going to focus on the
[35:14] performances and not be freezing our ass
[35:15] off out there and running back inside.
[35:18] That's useful just like Spencer Tracy
[35:20] and Katherryn Heburn used to be like
[35:22] driving their car and there's a wind
[35:23] blowing a painting behind them. and look
[35:25] goofy and you [laughter] know now you
[35:27] know in computer gener people use a lot
[35:28] of computerenerated stuff and some of it
[35:30] is going to replace just that like
[35:32] instead of uh 500 guys in Singapore you
[35:34] know making $2 an hour to to render all
[35:37] the graphics for a superhero movie
[35:40] there's going to be able to do that a
[35:41] lot easier there's already laws around
[35:43] and guild guidelines around like how
[35:45] many union extras you have to use but
[35:47] also we've been tiling extras like there
[35:49] weren't a million orcs in Middle Earth
[35:52] you know what I mean there aren't
[35:53] Invictus there weren't all those people
[35:54] in the stadium like that's something
[35:56] we've been doing. It kind of feels to me
[35:58] like the thing we were talking about
[35:59] earlier where there's a lot more fear
[36:02] because we have the sense this
[36:03] existential dread. It's going to wipe
[36:04] everything out.
[36:06] >> But that actually runs counter in my
[36:07] view to what history seems to show which
[36:10] is a adoption is slow. It's incremental.
[36:14] >> Um I think a lot of that rhetoric comes
[36:16] from people who are trying to justify
[36:18] valuations around companies where they
[36:21] go we're going to change everything in
[36:22] two years. There's going to be no more
[36:23] work. Well, the reason they're saying
[36:25] that is because they need to ascribe a
[36:27] valuation for investment that can
[36:29] warrant the capex spend they're going to
[36:31] make on these data centers with the
[36:32] argument that like oh you know as soon
[36:35] as we do the next model it's going to
[36:36] scale up can be three times as good
[36:38] except that actually chatp5 about 25
[36:42] time% better than chatbt4 and costs
[36:45] about four times as much in the way of
[36:47] electricity and data so when they say
[36:49] that's like plateauing the early AI the
[36:53] line went up very steeply and it's now
[36:55] sort of leveling off. I think it's
[36:57] because and yes it'll get better but
[36:59] it's going to be really expensive to get
[37:01] better and a lot of people are like
[37:02] this we want chatb4 because it turned
[37:04] out like the vast majority of people who
[37:07] use AI are using it to like as like
[37:10] companion bots to chat with at night and
[37:12] stuff. There's no work, there's no
[37:14] productivity, there's no value to it. I
[37:16] would argue there's also not a lot of
[37:18] social value to getting people to like
[37:21] focus on an AI friend who's, you know,
[37:23] telling you that you're great and
[37:25] listening to everything you say and
[37:26] being sick ofantic. But that's sort of a
[37:29] side issue. I think for this particular
[37:31] purpose, like the way I see the
[37:33] technology and what it's good at and
[37:34] what it's not, it's going to be good at
[37:36] filling in all the places that are
[37:37] expensive and burdensome and they make
[37:39] it harder to do it and it's always going
[37:41] to rely fundamentally on the human
[37:43] artistic aspects of it. Well, I think
[37:46] the more it becomes ubiquitous, the more
[37:49] people are going to appreciate real
[37:50] things that are made by real people, you
[37:53] know, like you're you still appreciate a
[37:54] handmade table, you know? You're you're
[37:56] going to appreciate like Did you see um
[37:59] uh The Beast in Me, Claire Danes?
[38:01] >> Yeah.
[38:01] >> No, I didn't. great.
[38:02] >> Yeah, I heard it was great.
[38:03] >> That lady
[38:05] terrific.
[38:06] >> When she's in a scene, you're just like
[38:08] Jesus Christ. Like great.
[38:10] >> Like you like her lips are
[38:11] quivering like you believe everything
[38:13] that she's saying. But you're right,
[38:14] people want that. My kids want
[38:16] cassette.
[38:18] >> I'll say like I I did this interview
[38:20] [clears throat] with uh with Dwayne
[38:21] Johnson because they, you know, they
[38:23] when people are in these awards things,
[38:25] they sometimes have other actors
[38:26] interview them, you know. And I did this
[38:28] interview with Dwayne and and and I
[38:30] asked him, there's this scene in the
[38:31] Smashing Machine where where he's
[38:34] overdosed on drugs and his buddy comes
[38:35] to see him in the hospital.
[38:37] >> Yeah.
[38:37] >> And and it really walloped me this
[38:40] scene. I thought it was so great. And
[38:42] and I asked him and I was just like,
[38:44] "Can you just tell me about this scene?
[38:45] Like, did Benny Benny Safy directed it?
[38:47] Did Benny write this write that? Did you
[38:49] work on that scene with them? Did you?"
[38:50] He goes, "No, we we actually worked on
[38:52] it together." And I go, "But how did
[38:53] that scene come to be?" And Dwayne goes,
[38:56] "Well, my father was an alcoholic." And
[38:58] I don't remember if he said substance
[38:59] abuse or alcoholic, but I didn't know
[39:01] the man. I don't want to impug him, but
[39:02] but he had he had a substance issue,
[39:04] whatever it was. He goes, "And and when
[39:06] he would talk to me, uh, you know,
[39:09] that's how he
[39:11] would defend himself." It was almost a
[39:13] bargaining thing because there's this
[39:14] thing when this guy comes to him, he's
[39:16] overdosed and Dwayne's amazing in this
[39:18] scene. He's he's going like he's going
[39:20] like, "Yeah, isn't it crazy?" And then I
[39:21] woke up and I mean, I could hear him,
[39:22] but I couldn't really hear him. And you
[39:23] see him and he's kind of tap dancing and
[39:25] his friend finally kind of holds his
[39:27] feet to the fire. And at that moment,
[39:30] Dwayne literally
[39:33] starts to burst into tears and just
[39:34] pulls the hospital sheet up over his
[39:37] head. And it's like and it's and it's I
[39:40] mean it just it was I'm I'm not doing it
[39:43] justice if you haven't I mean I know you
[39:44] I know you've seen
[39:46] >> but um he said yeah. So he explains that
[39:50] about his father and then he goes and
[39:52] and uh when my mom was diagnosed with
[39:54] stage three lung cancer. I was with her
[39:56] when the oncologist came in and she was
[39:58] lying in the hospital bed and when he
[40:00] gave her the news, she pulled the sheet
[40:02] up over her head and [snorts] I looked
[40:05] at her and she just looked like a little
[40:06] like a little kid, you know, and I was
[40:09] like, "All right." [snorts] Like, so
[40:12] that right is two traumatic events from
[40:15] this guy's life, right, from his life
[40:18] experience.
[40:19] And the actor in him, right, sees this
[40:22] scene,
[40:24] goes into his
[40:26] memory pulls these two things out,
[40:28] understands that they're appropriate for
[40:30] this scene, and he can marry them
[40:31] together in the scene, and then he goes
[40:34] and performs it that way. And
[40:35] [clears throat]
[40:36] a dude walking in off the road, goes to
[40:39] the movies, sees this, understands
[40:43] somehow that it's real. I I
[40:46] didn't know why. I That's why I wanted
[40:48] to ask him, how did that scene come to
[40:49] be? genuinely didn't know and made me
[40:54] tear up and you know like that is
[40:58] >> there's no AI that can do that.
[41:00] >> No, it's the whole lot more than
[41:02] photorealistic images.
[41:04] >> Yeah, you you could you could you could
[41:06] have an AI understand Dwayne's face and
[41:08] move his face into different No
[41:11] thing could ever do that.
[41:12] >> The complications of real life
[41:13] experiences relayed.
[41:15] >> That is a completely human That is an
[41:17] that is an artist. That's a piece of
[41:18] art, right? that comes out of a lived
[41:20] human experience.
[41:21] >> That movie gave me so much anxiety.
[41:23] There's moments where Emily Blunt is
[41:25] arguing in that movie. I said I really
[41:28] said I I I was like that I think I think
[41:29] that's the best she's ever been. I love
[41:31] you know we live in the same building in
[41:32] New York. She's like very dear friend of
[41:33] mine and I and I I I I was like I I
[41:36] really think that's the best she's ever
[41:37] been. And then I said and then I blurted
[41:39] that out to Chris Nolan and and he kind
[41:41] of stopped and looked at me like he
[41:43] didn't say it but he was kind of like
[41:44] she's pretty good in my movie
[41:46] too. [laughter]
[41:47] >> Well, she's great period.
[41:48] [clears throat] She's great period.
[41:49] >> She's great period. But there's
[41:50] something about that. Well, I knew Mark.
[41:52] I I knew Mark from I met Mark in 97 when
[41:56] he was fighting in the UFC. So, [cough]
[41:57] I knew the whole journey of him. And I
[42:00] was so happy for Dwayne because it was a
[42:02] film where instead of being this
[42:05] superhero blockbuster Hulk of a man, he
[42:08] gets to be that, but be an a great
[42:11] actor. And you know, you can't really
[42:14] get a person
[42:16] >> to look like that
[42:18] >> to express emotions and and and he was
[42:23] Mark Kerr. If you know Mark, I mean, it
[42:26] was great actor.
[42:27] >> I completely forgot it was him and
[42:29] somebody who had seen it before told me
[42:31] that was going to happen and I was like,
[42:32] "All right, we'll see." Yeah. [laughter]
[42:35] And it was like from the second it
[42:36] started
[42:36] >> it didn't get the credit it deserved in
[42:38] terms of like the amount of people that
[42:39] went to see it. But I think overall in
[42:41] time people appreciated.
[42:42] >> Yeah. That's one people go back to and
[42:45] talk about
[42:45] >> because it's a movie about MMA. So a lot
[42:48] of people are like I don't want to see a
[42:49] movie about a bunch of
[42:50] meatheads. But it's not. It's just a
[42:52] movie that happens to be around MMA but
[42:55] MMA. But it's a great movie. The the the
[42:59] scenes are fantastic. The acting
[43:02] is so good and the right and even the
[43:04] the fight scenes. They're so realistic,
[43:07] man. It's really like they I've saw all
[43:09] those fights. They recreated those
[43:12] fights about as good as you can get
[43:14] >> and just his crazy struggle. And you
[43:17] know the story behind the documentary,
[43:19] The Smashing Machine.
[43:20] >> No.
[43:20] >> So, The Smashing Machine was made when
[43:22] Mark was at the height of his powers and
[43:24] pride. And he was the most terrifying
[43:26] guy in the world. He was 265 lb of solid
[43:30] muscle just blowing through people.
[43:32] Didn't even look like a human being.
[43:33] Everyone was terrified of him. No one
[43:35] knew he was a drug addict. No one knew.
[43:37] And he spiraled out as they were
[43:40] filming. And he let them film him. Let
[43:43] them film him shooting up. let them film
[43:45] him like bringing this giant bag of
[43:47] pills with him and all this
[43:49] everywhere and just completely falling
[43:51] apart. While they were supposed to be
[43:53] capturing this hero movie of the
[43:56] greatest fighter in the world, he's
[43:58] falling apart like live in front of the
[44:00] documentary. It was amazing
[44:02] documentary.
[44:03] >> I got to see it.
[44:04] >> It's really good. But the I was so happy
[44:07] that they put it in a film and I was so
[44:09] happy that it gave Dwayne a vehicle to
[44:12] show what he's really capable of because
[44:13] he's so limited by a lot of just the
[44:16] parameters of the roles that he was in.
[44:18] >> Yeah. And by and by like galactic
[44:21] success, too, right? I mean, it's it's
[44:23] it's he he has he had to
[44:26] >> and will continue to have to
[44:28] >> push
[44:30] >> for that, right? Because it's
[44:31] [clears throat] what he wants, right?
[44:33] and not because what because what what
[44:35] they are going to continue to want him
[44:37] to do is you know the thing that that
[44:39] that mints them money. Um
[44:41] >> yeah but I suspect that his experience
[44:44] and feeling about this movie
[44:46] >> from the conversations I've had with
[44:47] him. Yeah. This this is this is
[44:49] >> this has changed him.
[44:51] >> Yeah.
[44:51] >> Well, I mean it's like this thing that
[44:54] these superhero guys have to do where
[44:56] it's like something has to change
[44:58] because otherwise you're going to be
[45:00] boxed. Yeah. And with a guy that looks
[45:02] like that, it's so easy to put him in
[45:04] that box.
[45:06] >> And so you see him now, he's thinner.
[45:07] He's lost a lot of weight. Dave Bautista
[45:09] went through a very similar thing, too,
[45:10] right? He wanted to be he wanted to have
[45:12] more range, wanted to have, you know,
[45:14] more opportunities to do exciting and
[45:16] different challenging things.
[45:17] >> Well, I think also coming from where he
[45:19] came from, right? It's like you talk
[45:21] about going from TV to movies in the old
[45:23] days, try coming from wrestling to to
[45:26] like the biggest movie star in the
[45:28] world, right? It's very it's like it's
[45:29] incredible that he did that and now he's
[45:33] in this place where he's got this
[45:35] leverage as because he's so beloved and
[45:37] you know that that he can kind of tailor
[45:39] the tailor what he wants from from here
[45:41] on out.
[45:42] >> It's hard to bring the audience with you
[45:43] and like no no I know you like this
[45:45] thing but let me let me show you
[45:47] something else. You know it's sort of
[45:48] like you go to the concert the band
[45:50] wants to play the new songs and play the
[45:52] hits. [laughter] You know
[45:55] it's always a little gilded gaze. All
[45:57] right. it. satisfaction.
[45:58] >> Yeah. [laughter]
[46:00] >> No, I love the song, too.
[46:02] >> You know, my my acoustic thing that I
[46:04] did, you know.
[46:05] >> Yeah. I went to see the Stones and when
[46:07] they were here in town and there was a
[46:09] few songs they played that were like new
[46:10] songs.
[46:10] >> Oh, really? See the audience is like,
[46:12] "Okay, okay. Go get a beer. Get the
[46:14] other one." [laughter]
[46:15] >> Yeah. That's But I mean, but you know,
[46:18] every artist, I guess, has to make that
[46:20] choice. And he's made it. and and it was
[46:23] amazing vehicle too cuz he still kept
[46:25] that superhuman hulkish frame and then
[46:29] but also showed like god there's like
[46:31] amazing depth there.
[46:32] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[46:33] >> And that's the thing that's I think
[46:35] especially because it's a it's
[46:37] collaborative it happens with other
[46:38] people. That's what movies do that other
[46:41] doesn't do which is just create
[46:43] like you feel for people. It's empathy.
[46:45] It's all made up right that's not him.
[46:47] That's all it's all an illusion all
[46:49] But if you do it really well
[46:50] with like, you know, somebody that seems
[46:53] to really be feeling something like all
[46:54] of a sudden, I think what it does, it
[46:56] touches like these things in ourselves,
[46:58] you know, it has that same effect that
[47:00] Dwayne went through of articulate to you
[47:02] about like these moments that were kind
[47:05] of burned into his memory. Then really
[47:08] the best movies are kind of almost blank
[47:10] screens that we project our own
[47:12] like, oh yeah, I my father died or I
[47:15] went through this with my kid or I'm
[47:17] I feel alone and and and
[47:20] and miserable and and here's this like
[47:22] hopeful moment that someone has to go
[47:24] maybe I can maybe I can do something,
[47:26] you know, they inspire you, they touch
[47:27] you, they move you and the thing to go
[47:29] for. The other thing is, you know, it's
[47:32] a is to to tell a lighter story, to go
[47:34] through the more typical sort of tropes
[47:36] of it all. And it's a
[47:37] >> either way, you're in somebody else's
[47:39] perspective for a few hours and
[47:41] hopefully it breeds compassion.
[47:42] >> Well, when it's done right, there's a
[47:44] magic to it where you forget that it's
[47:46] happening and you're there when the most
[47:48] amazing trick is when it's done by
[47:50] famous people. You know, I was talking
[47:51] to Ethan Hawk about this. There's a
[47:53] scene with him and Kevin Bacon when in
[47:56] uh that movie with Julia Roberts about
[47:57] the end of the world. I forget the name
[47:58] of it.
[47:59] >> Right. Yeah, tomorrow
[48:02] something people will find it. But it's
[48:04] great, great movie. But there's
[48:05] this scene where he's trying to get he's
[48:08] talking to Kevin Bacon. Kevin Bacon's
[48:10] got a gun to him. And it's so I
[48:13] know that's Kevin Bacon. I know that's
[48:15] Ethan Hawk. It doesn't matter. Like
[48:17] you're locked in. You're locked
[48:19] in. You're like, "Oh shit." Like that's
[48:21] the magic. And And he was like, "But I'm
[48:25] locked in too." Like that's it's like a
[48:27] hypnosis. It's like everybody is in the
[48:30] scene in a very bizarre way. Like you
[48:35] you have the lines, but you're living
[48:37] it. And so, and that's either done or
[48:39] it's not done. And when it's not done,
[48:41] >> you could tell someone's kind of just
[48:43] performative.
[48:44] >> You feel it when you're watching it.
[48:45] >> Yes.
[48:45] >> If if it does that thing and it pulls
[48:47] you in, then it's happening.
[48:49] >> That's the magic of film.
[48:50] >> And sometimes you trick people, I guess,
[48:52] but for the most part,
[48:52] >> for the most part, you don't. you're
[48:54] feeling it and you it's really
[48:56] happening. It's much more like
[48:58] >> other human beings recognize human
[49:00] beings experiencing real Yes. They
[49:03] they mirror like I know what
[49:06] >> sorrow looks like without having to
[49:08] I can't break it down for you or
[49:10] I even you know you we all know kind of
[49:12] what like oh he's a little anxious right
[49:14] now or did I maybe offend him or you
[49:16] know all these little things and when
[49:18] some like in the rare moments when these
[49:21] big feelings or the things happen you
[49:24] feel it too you know and you usually
[49:27] like an example is there's an old saying
[49:29] about like you know actors try to cry
[49:31] people try not to cry Like because when
[49:33] you're really experiencing that
[49:34] you don't want people to see it. You
[49:35] want to hide it. You want to No, I'm
[49:37] okay. I'm fine. You know, it's like
[49:38] >> you want to pull the sheet up over
[49:39] Exactly. Exactly.
[49:41] >> But the other thing that's really
[49:42] interesting from from our side of doing
[49:44] it, because he and I have talked about
[49:45] this a lot, is and I've always said
[49:48] publicly, like great actors are good
[49:50] enough for both of you. Like when you're
[49:52] in a scene with a great actor,
[49:54] >> that thing that Ethan's talking about,
[49:56] that hypnosis or whatever you want to
[49:58] call it, that energy, that that place
[49:59] where you go, right?
[50:01] >> They're bringing you right where they
[50:02] tractor beam. They will suck you
[50:04] right in with them. And like as quickly
[50:06] as you look into their eyes and you're
[50:08] like, you're like just there. And it's
[50:10] like, and it's not like it's like riding
[50:12] the easiest wave you've ever ridden in
[50:14] your life,
[50:16] >> you know? It can be the hardest thing in
[50:17] the world and it can be the easiest
[50:19] thing in the world. When you're with a
[50:20] great actor, it just it's just if the
[50:22] scenes
[50:23] >> Yeah, that's the real paradox is like
[50:25] all the stuff that I'm the most proud
[50:26] of, the weird thing about us has felt
[50:28] very easy at the time. And the
[50:30] where you're banging your head against
[50:31] the wall trying to get blood from a
[50:32] stone and killing yourself and the whole
[50:33] thing and it just
[50:34] >> it ends up feeling empty. And
[50:36] the thing about the stuff that I'm proud
[50:38] of is I'm my insecurity is like should
[50:40] be harder than this, right? Are we are
[50:42] like we work hard enough? Are we get you
[50:44] know
[50:44] >> and learn to kind of just trust that? Go
[50:46] feels good. Let's just keep going, you
[50:48] know? Well, there's some scenes in this
[50:49] movie without giving too much away where
[50:51] there's conflict between you two guys
[50:52] that seem so real and that's even harder
[50:55] to recreate because you guys are good
[50:56] friends and you're making the movie
[50:59] together and you've got this scene where
[51:01] you're acting in this and with the
[51:03] conflict with the two of you guys the
[51:04] movie, but it's very real.
[51:06] >> The reason that it was real is that I
[51:08] like that scene. The reason it's it it
[51:09] it works, I think, is because
[51:12] he's coming at me and he's he really
[51:16] needs to know something and I'm
[51:18] completely blanking him.
[51:20] >> Like I'm just he's going, "You got to
[51:22] tell me what's going on, man." He's
[51:23] like, "It's awesome." Like, "What what
[51:24] is going what is the thing?" And I'm and
[51:26] I'm just like literally kind of blanking
[51:29] him in this bizarre way which which like
[51:32] was really frustrating him in real life
[51:35] because he he was that feeling of like
[51:38] it's tell me dude it's you and
[51:40] me like when he finally goes he screams
[51:42] out I don't trust you right now that's a
[51:44] problem right which is like what
[51:46] you would say to an old friend like what
[51:48] are you doing man like what
[51:51] >> what what are you do like
[51:53] tell me the the betrayal me or
[51:55] tell me the truth. Lie, lie to me or
[51:57] tell me talk to me and like step outside
[51:58] our whole relationship and all of a
[52:00] sudden
[52:01] >> just act like
[52:02] >> give me this weird look of just like I
[52:04] don't know, you know, like [laughter]
[52:07] and so when we were doing the scene,
[52:10] it was really pissing [laughter]
[52:11] him off. I could see him like getting
[52:13] >> There's the one line that wasn't written
[52:14] that I saw I didn't remember doing was,
[52:15] "I would have never you like
[52:16] this."
[52:17] >> I I would have never you like
[52:18] this. Yeah.
[52:18] >> Which I didn't even remember saying is
[52:20] George, I like that. Keep that thing. I
[52:21] wouldn't have you. And I was I
[52:23] thought I was like what is he what did I
[52:25] just you and I so watched the playback.
[52:27] It wasn't those rare moments again. It
[52:29] was like where it was that thing of you
[52:31] doing all the work by by not doing
[52:33] anything which I didn't expect that to
[52:36] be the choice that you made and it just
[52:38] was confusing and felt like just you
[52:40] know leaving you out in the
[52:41] cold. I the only thing I could rely on
[52:44] is like I you know I I would I wouldn't
[52:46] do this to you [laughter] you know. So
[52:47] do you have in those moments where
[52:49] you're you're ad living a line where a
[52:51] line come is it just just that feels
[52:53] like that's what you say?
[52:55] >> Yeah.
[52:55] >> It's just kind of like he couldn't stop
[52:57] from saying it, right? You know,
[52:58] >> but you have to be working with somebody
[53:00] that makes that okay. You know what I
[53:02] mean? Cuz the part of your brain that
[53:04] will like govern you or tell you
[53:06] something's not okay, whatever, will
[53:08] step in if it's sort of like, you know,
[53:10] listen, I expect you to do this
[53:12] boxes. And there's there's uh directors
[53:13] and writers who who really do really
[53:15] care about every word precisely and that
[53:18] you know and that's that's how they do
[53:19] it and that's fine. That could be great
[53:20] too. For me like it it I find it's it
[53:24] becomes more interesting and sometimes
[53:25] better stuff happens if you actually
[53:27] feel like you don't have to say any of
[53:28] the lines. I don't have to say any of
[53:30] the lines in the scene. Then I'll tend
[53:32] to say the ones that feel right. But it
[53:35] but like it's that it's that fake thing
[53:37] that never happens in life which is I'm
[53:39] never sitting here talking to you and
[53:40] think what's my next line? What am I
[53:42] supposed to say and how should I say
[53:44] that?
[53:44] >> And it's not about the lines ever. It's
[53:46] not about the word. It's about what's h
[53:47] what's the scene about? What's happening
[53:48] in the scene?
[53:49] >> It's one of the reasons why curb curb
[53:51] your enthusiasm is so great
[53:52] >> cuz Larry David just gives you a place
[53:55] to get to.
[53:56] >> Yeah. Like
[53:56] >> it gives them an ag kind of a loose
[53:58] agenda of what's going to happen
[53:59] >> and then films a bunch of stuff and
[54:01] everybody figures it out.
[54:02] >> Yeah. And a lot of times that show's
[54:04] about the awkward in between when
[54:06] people are missing each other or not not
[54:08] sure of themselves and a little
[54:10] embarrassed.
[54:10] genius show.
[54:11] >> It really is.
[54:12] >> And and and people talk like we're
[54:14] talking like you occasionally talk over
[54:16] each other. There's a stumble. There's
[54:18] no one know like what what what the
[54:20] are you talk? There's weirdness [snorts]
[54:21] to
[54:22] >> because what's also happening is that
[54:24] forces you to really listen, right? And
[54:26] that is that is the hardest thing to
[54:29] kind of learn for young actors I think
[54:31] is is it's really all about listening.
[54:33] And like I did a bunch of movies with
[54:35] Paul Greengrass and that's how he works
[54:37] where he where you just know the agenda
[54:40] going in. You know some basic things
[54:42] that you you know what your guy needs
[54:44] going in. Like I was playing a chief
[54:46] warrant officer and I had to go through
[54:48] a door and there was a guy and I needed
[54:50] to interrogate him and I this is what I
[54:52] needed to know from him. I needed to
[54:54] secure the house with my guys and I
[54:56] needed to get to this guy. We needed to
[54:58] make sure everybody here was secure. So,
[54:59] and it just and they and he put me with
[55:01] a bunch of real
[55:03] combat veterans and we went in
[55:06] and you know they're the
[55:07] >> another thing that does your job for
[55:08] you.
[55:09] >> It's just being around the real people.
[55:11] >> Joe putting the the cops from Miami, you
[55:13] know, on these parts and it just like by
[55:16] osmosis you feel more legitimate. The
[55:18] thing feels more authentic to the
[55:20] audience. You don't know why because you
[55:22] don't know what the how what the
[55:23] culture is of the nar tactical narcotics
[55:25] team in Miami. But when you see the real
[55:27] guys, you kind of oh you're like, "Yeah,
[55:29] that seems right."
[55:30] >> Miami was a perfect place to have it,
[55:32] too.
[55:32] >> Miami.
[55:33] >> Well, it's also specific to this because
[55:34] it's based on this real tactical
[55:37] narcotics [snorts] team in in in Miami.
[55:39] And and uh and the guy who ran that,
[55:42] this guy Chris Casiano is Joe's friend
[55:44] and he's the guy that my character is
[55:46] based on. Um, so Chris was Chris we
[55:49] went, you know, we rode along with Chris
[55:51] down there. We went with that team and
[55:52] watched them operate and then hung out
[55:54] with them and then they came up and they
[55:55] were, you know, all in the movie and
[55:57] Chris was around as a technical adviser
[55:59] the whole time. So any question like
[56:02] little details, all right, how do I go
[56:03] through this door? What do I do? What do
[56:05] you do here? What's the what's the
[56:06] protocol here? What you know, all of
[56:08] that stuff was kind of overseen by him
[56:10] so that it so that it was how they
[56:12] really do it.
[56:13] >> That whole town is so Did you
[56:15] ever see Cocaine Cowboys? Yes.
[56:18] >> Oh
[56:19] >> The entire graduating class of
[56:21] the police academy one year either wound
[56:23] up murdered or in jail. [laughter]
[56:26] >> But that's what happens. All of a sudden
[56:27] you push so much money into
[56:30] something, right? And it's like and
[56:32] before they even kind of figured out
[56:34] like
[56:35] >> you know and it was there wasn't even a
[56:36] lot of stigma. I was like, "Ah, cocaine,
[56:38] whatever. It's kind of rich guys fun
[56:40] drug." But, you know, is there some
[56:42] statistic about like, you know, the
[56:44] amount of money in the banks in Miami
[56:46] was like the same as the rest of the
[56:48] country?
[56:48] >> More [laughter] banks per capita in
[56:50] Miami than anywhere else in the country
[56:53] >> because they were just laundering money
[56:55] and they got away with it. They
[56:56] literally got away with it.
[56:57] >> Have you ever flown over biminy? You
[56:59] know, the island. So, so if you fly
[57:02] over, ever fly over Biminy, there are
[57:03] all these like Cessnas underwater, all
[57:07] these planes like around the island cuz
[57:09] what they used to do, Bimin is like the
[57:11] closest it's 50 miles off the coast of
[57:13] Florida. Um they would they would come
[57:15] in with a plane full of drugs and just
[57:18] crash the plane into the water. They
[57:20] would land it on purpose.
[57:21] >> On purpose because there's no runway on
[57:23] Biminy. No, it's like it. We're
[57:25] going to dump the plane in the
[57:26] >> They would have 10 cigarette boats, like
[57:28] a flotilla of boats waiting. They would
[57:31] crash the plane. They'd offload the
[57:33] drugs as the plane was sinking, right?
[57:36] And and then they put it they put
[57:37] [laughter]
[57:39] the Coast Guard like figures. They're
[57:40] always coming for them. That's why they
[57:42] have 10 boats. They throw the drugs into
[57:44] one of the boats
[57:46] >> and they got a one out of 10 chance of
[57:47] making it. They just scatter
[57:50] >> and the Coast Guard goes after one of
[57:52] them and hopes they get the right one
[57:53] and not. It's just like, "No, it's just
[57:55] taking a cruise tonight. What's the
[57:57] problem, officer?"
[57:58] >> But the planes are still all submerged.
[58:01] Like you could The water's so clear. You
[58:03] can see
[58:03] >> how many Oh, wow.
[58:04] >> There you go.
[58:05] >> Wow.
[58:06] >> That's crazy. How many planes
[58:08] are out there?
[58:09] >> I flew over it probably 20 years ago.
[58:11] But I mean there's
[58:14] >> Yeah,
[58:14] >> that wasn't a
[58:16] >> I don't know how long I mean but if you
[58:17] think of probably the cost of one of
[58:18] those little Cessnas probably wasn't I
[58:20] mean with the amount of drugs they were
[58:22] moving on on Yeah. There you go.
[58:24] wild.
[58:26] >> That's great. They're kind of landing
[58:27] where it's sort of shallow. [laughter]
[58:29] >> Yeah. They land and it's like
[58:30] it. We can swim
[58:30] >> 5 to 10 feet of water and what do they
[58:32] they land at whatever 55 knots. So you
[58:35] just try to
[58:36] >> looks nice too like sure you can
[58:39] be comfortable but I mean Sully landed a
[58:41] 737 or whatever it was in water.
[58:44] >> Yeah. wild. What a crazy part of
[58:48] our culture that that happened.
[58:50] >> Yeah.
[58:51] >> That the the the whole cocaine run
[58:53] during the 80s in particular like Miami
[58:55] Vice all that like it's like it
[58:57] shaped the entire country
[58:59] >> for sure.
[58:59] >> Oh yeah. I just remember that one guy in
[59:02] that documentary who was like I think he
[59:03] was from Boston and he was like the
[59:05] pilot and he had figured out the route
[59:06] and he was like man
[59:08] >> like we could have gotten away with this
[59:09] forever. [laughter]
[59:11] >> It was somebody talked and he knew
[59:13] that's the only way we would have been
[59:14] caught. He was like I I had it all. He
[59:16] was clearly really smart.
[59:17] >> One of the guys did too. You know what I
[59:19] mean? There's a whole lot of people out
[59:21] there that were like yeah we had a nice
[59:22] run back. [laughter]
[59:24] >> It's why I got eight houses. You know
[59:25] it's like
[59:26] >> Oh yeah. That's one of the real crimes
[59:29] that people got away with was bringing
[59:30] cocaine into this country. There's a lot
[59:32] of people that got very wealthy,
[59:33] including banks, which is just really
[59:35] crazy.
[59:36] >> Banks or the jewelry companies,
[59:38] Jag. There was like more Jaguar
[59:40] dealerships in Miami than everywhere
[59:42] else in the country. And it was like
[59:43] doesn't pay to ask questions. So, yep. I
[59:45] guess a lot of people like our cars
[59:46] here.
[59:47] >> You don't say all cash. Sure. [laughter]
[59:50] >> Yeah, we can make you a deal. Sure.
[59:51] Well, how many backyards in Miami still
[59:53] to this day have bags just buried
[59:55] somewhere that nobody knows about?
[59:57] >> It's probably worth just checking.
[59:58] >> When you buy a house in Miami, just dig
[01:00:00] the yard up.
[01:00:01] >> Well, at least find out who owned it
[01:00:02] before you. Oh, he's a pilot.
[01:00:04] >> Get a truck. [laughter]
[01:00:06] >> Get a tractor. It's time to dig up the
[01:00:08] backyard. I mean, one of those guys in
[01:00:10] the films had millions of dollars just
[01:00:12] buried in his backyard. They had nowhere
[01:00:13] to put it.
[01:00:14] >> They were making so much money, they
[01:00:15] just had to bury it places.
[01:00:17] >> That's crazy. Well, it's why
[01:00:19] it's a perfect backdrop for the film,
[01:00:21] you know, because you know that the
[01:00:24] situation that the cops without giving
[01:00:26] away too much of the plot, but the
[01:00:27] situation that the cops are dealing with
[01:00:28] is a very real situation. I mean, so
[01:00:30] many DEA agents turn dirty. So many cops
[01:00:33] turn dirty. It's because it just get
[01:00:36] temptation. It's like you take this
[01:00:37] these people, you know, you got like
[01:00:39] six, seven people, they work for
[01:00:41] a living. They have the same
[01:00:42] they have to deal with. And there's $20
[01:00:44] million, you know, and it's I mean it
[01:00:47] makes for a great like drama too. Even
[01:00:49] like the you know in the performances
[01:00:51] because all of a sudden somebody's
[01:00:52] thinking like okay how are they going to
[01:00:54] react you know who be the first person
[01:00:56] to say you I'm going to have to turn
[01:00:58] this all in you know and and like
[01:01:00] getting to play that And for me
[01:01:02] also I like you know without being you
[01:01:04] know sanctimonious or preachy because I
[01:01:06] really think movies we're talking about
[01:01:08] like what they do well what they do very
[01:01:10] poorly is deliver messages or lecture.
[01:01:12] as soon as you get into that thing.
[01:01:13] >> Yeah.
[01:01:14] >> The audience is like, I you know, I'm
[01:01:16] going to go to church for that or
[01:01:17] school for I don't need that
[01:01:19] here. Um, but I like that what was
[01:01:22] underneath it is like this is a
[01:01:24] hard job and and that there's a lot like
[01:01:27] there's a lot of value like the these
[01:01:29] characters, the ones that are trying to
[01:01:30] do their job are trying to get through
[01:01:32] the day and just at the end of the day
[01:01:34] have done their job like they said they
[01:01:36] were going to do, you know, adhere to
[01:01:38] the ethics that they're supposed
[01:01:39] to and at the end of the day be able to
[01:01:41] sleep at night and believe there's some
[01:01:42] value in not stealing the money
[01:01:45] or flipping somebody over, you know what
[01:01:46] I mean? And doing all that And
[01:01:48] that's the win. The wind doesn't have to
[01:01:50] be get away with the bag of money or
[01:01:52] you know save the world from uh
[01:01:54] you know the evil scientist laser beam
[01:01:56] or whatever. It's like the end of the
[01:01:58] day if you can live with
[01:01:59] yourself and say look you know I quitted
[01:02:01] myself according to what the
[01:02:02] expectations were and what my true to my
[01:02:04] word and I I think there's so like
[01:02:07] that's a I don't know that that affected
[01:02:09] me. I I found that kind of moving and
[01:02:10] and you can't do it if you create like
[01:02:13] if you to credit to Joe Script like just
[01:02:15] two dimensional characters. I'm the
[01:02:16] hero, I'm the villain or this person
[01:02:17] would never do that. They all have to be
[01:02:19] real people like you would be subject to
[01:02:21] like
[01:02:22] >> temptation. Money just represents
[01:02:24] whatever that thing is you think you
[01:02:25] want or that's going to make your life
[01:02:27] better. You're you know it's something
[01:02:29] different to everybody. But, you know,
[01:02:31] and especially when you're like you're
[01:02:33] facing like real, you know, the custody
[01:02:35] thing or the, you know, the sick
[01:02:36] relative or or whatever it is, that's
[01:02:39] it's a real thing. Nobody's immune to to
[01:02:41] to that kind of temptation. You know,
[01:02:43] sometimes I think it's cavalier to be
[01:02:45] like, "Oh, well, you're dirty." You're
[01:02:46] not putting people in a very tough
[01:02:48] situation a lot of times, particularly
[01:02:50] if they're feeling like undervalued. I
[01:02:52] like the woman scene where Catalina is
[01:02:54] like, "I get pissed. I get
[01:02:56] yelled at. I get on." You know what
[01:02:58] I mean? like I'm out here grinding every
[01:03:00] day.
[01:03:01] >> You know, it's uh it's a lot to a lot to
[01:03:04] ask and I think it's it's worth kind of
[01:03:06] making that, you know, heroic without
[01:03:09] sort of indicating too much.
[01:03:11] >> No, it's really well written because
[01:03:13] there's no suspension of disbelief
[01:03:15] moments. It's a it's a and that's hard
[01:03:16] to do in a big blockbuster action movie.
[01:03:19] There's always one movie moment in a
[01:03:21] movie where you're like, "What? Come on.
[01:03:23] How do you do that? That's
[01:03:24] >> convenient." You guys don't have any of
[01:03:25] those. There's none of that. And I loved
[01:03:27] it. I loved it. I loved that that aspect
[01:03:30] of it too where it felt like all of it
[01:03:32] was like I believed it.
[01:03:33] >> I believed it.
[01:03:34] >> And that that's really a credit to Joe
[01:03:36] and his like taste [clears throat] and
[01:03:37] that's why we really thought like this
[01:03:39] guy knew how to make narc. He kind of
[01:03:41] obviously understood this world and
[01:03:43] understood that it has to
[01:03:45] >> above all it has to feel real and that's
[01:03:47] why he was open to like okay whatever
[01:03:49] happens you throw in a line maybe it's
[01:03:51] good. can't get your feeling hurt if
[01:03:52] it's not, you know, but like you got to
[01:03:54] be able to take that shot and we're all
[01:03:56] down, you know, trying to spend time
[01:03:58] with people. I mean, I kind of feel for
[01:03:59] these cops, a bunch of actors descend on
[01:04:01] you and they're like, "What what kind of
[01:04:02] sweatshirt is that?" You know,
[01:04:03] [laughter]
[01:04:04] >> it was like that Michael J. Fox, James
[01:04:05] Woods [snorts] movie. Remember that
[01:04:07] movie when he I forget what it was
[01:04:09] called, but he's Michael J. Fox is an
[01:04:11] actor following around James Woods. He's
[01:04:12] he's studying him for a character and
[01:04:14] James Woods is a real like detective and
[01:04:16] he's just like,
[01:04:17] >> "Get this guy away from me." I kept
[01:04:18] thinking of that
[01:04:19] >> kind of hair gel you use.
[01:04:20] >> Yeah. Yeah. like all these questions,
[01:04:22] [laughter] you know, but they were very
[01:04:24] tolerant of us, which was which was nice
[01:04:26] and and uh and uh and really really
[01:04:29] helpful, you know, because it's all it's
[01:04:31] always details. It's always details.
[01:04:34] It's like how fastidiously do you do you
[01:04:36] kind of mind for those details? Cuz I'm
[01:04:39] I've always been convinced that like an
[01:04:40] audience,
[01:04:42] >> it's like you were saying, they don't
[01:04:43] analyze why they don't believe
[01:04:45] something. They feel it. They just don't
[01:04:47] believe it.
[01:04:48] >> And it's usually because those details
[01:04:51] are you you don't get those
[01:04:52] >> and that's the only thing like I'm not
[01:04:54] great at imagining something let's
[01:04:56] invent this everything that I've done
[01:04:58] like that I that I like is been a result
[01:05:01] of something I found to research like
[01:05:02] for the town I went down and just went
[01:05:04] through the you know all the prisons you
[01:05:07] know out there in Massachusetts federal
[01:05:08] prisons state prisons and sat down and
[01:05:10] talked to guys who robbed trucks and
[01:05:12] banks and you know kind of sometimes you
[01:05:15] know you want to know and then sat down
[01:05:16] with the FBI guys and was like what are
[01:05:18] they like and the great you know,
[01:05:20] for me is that, you know, and I'm in
[01:05:22] like uh I'm in like wet wallpap or I'm
[01:05:25] in the prison denim or whatever and I'm
[01:05:27] to some guy I said like after talking
[01:05:29] for two hours, you know, I was like,
[01:05:31] "Does anything just weird ever
[01:05:33] happened or up? Anything you
[01:05:34] remember?" The guy was like, "Yeah, one
[01:05:36] time uh you know, we were coming out of
[01:05:39] this thing, we robbed his truck and you
[01:05:41] know, we we had the mask, we got the
[01:05:42] switch car, we drove around the corner
[01:05:43] and whatever. We pull up and we get out
[01:05:45] guns and the mass hold things
[01:05:47] and we look over and it's this cop
[01:05:49] sitting there doing construction duty
[01:05:51] and I was like right then didn't even
[01:05:53] tell me the story. I was like oh I
[01:05:55] was like what happened? He goes, you
[01:05:57] know, he looked at us, we looked at him,
[01:06:01] he looked the other way.
[01:06:02] >> Whoa.
[01:06:03] >> And I was like, really? He goes, yeah,
[01:06:04] he didn't want to end up on the wall at
[01:06:05] the VFW.
[01:06:07] >> It was like
[01:06:08] >> these guys with full automatic weapons,
[01:06:09] masks on switching cars. I was like,
[01:06:12] "All right, I'm putting that in the
[01:06:13] movie."
[01:06:13] >> And it's it's in the it's a great moment
[01:06:15] in the town, like in the movie cuz you
[01:06:18] know, Rener, they all jump out of the
[01:06:19] things and then and he Oh, yeah. Here it
[01:06:21] is.
[01:06:22] >> Exactly.
[01:06:23] >> It was like
[01:06:24] >> It's great. And it's this awkward.
[01:06:26] >> They just stop and dude.
[01:06:29] >> He sees him. They see him.
[01:06:33] >> He's [clears throat] like a We
[01:06:34] have to kill this guy.
[01:06:38] >> Nope. He turns away.
[01:06:40] >> Okay. Wow.
[01:06:44] [laughter]
[01:06:44] >> It's such a great But that's straight
[01:06:45] from research. I always love that story.
[01:06:48] Um and then he and then the line is here
[01:06:51] that he put it here
[01:06:52] >> and one on the wall of BFW. Yeah. It was
[01:06:54] a great, you know, it's a great line.
[01:06:56] >> It was such a simple explanation for
[01:06:58] what why do you think what do you think
[01:06:59] he did, you know, and why? Like
[01:07:01] >> and that's exactly what it would have
[01:07:03] been like that guy next day's picture
[01:07:05] would have been up in the wall at the
[01:07:06] VFW.
[01:07:07] >> Yeah. [snorts]
[01:07:07] >> You know, and he knew it and everybody
[01:07:09] knew it. He said he didn't want to do it
[01:07:11] like that. You know, that was and that
[01:07:13] that kind of stuff is uh I don't know.
[01:07:15] It's very human human calculations and
[01:07:18] interact. I a very extreme version of
[01:07:20] it, but it also doesn't have sometimes.
[01:07:22] It's not dramatic at all, you know? It's
[01:07:24] like that was an easy decision and the
[01:07:26] guy never says anything. I didn't say
[01:07:27] anything, you know, and kind of can't
[01:07:29] really blame him, you know? It's uh
[01:07:32] >> The Town was a great movie, too,
[01:07:34] man. And I I knew a lot of people like
[01:07:36] that, you know, from boxing gyms and
[01:07:38] stuff. I I knew a guy who was a hitman
[01:07:40] for Whitey Bulier.
[01:07:42] >> I knew a guy who was a a friend of a
[01:07:44] brother of mine who went to jail for
[01:07:46] that for murder for killing people.
[01:07:48] >> Yeah.
[01:07:49] >> What town did you grow up in?
[01:07:50] >> I lived in Newton. I Yeah. I grew up in
[01:07:53] I lived in Jamaica playing for a little
[01:07:54] while and I lived in Newton, but I I
[01:07:56] spent a lot of time in Boston because I
[01:07:58] was fighting. I was mostly training. And
[01:08:00] so I was around a lot of these like very
[01:08:02] shady characters
[01:08:03] >> who were in the fighting world and a lot
[01:08:06] of them had backgrounds in crime.
[01:08:08] one of the guys that I went to that I
[01:08:10] trained with, he went to jail for a
[01:08:11] little while and then he got uh arrested
[01:08:14] because a guy got killed and they broke
[01:08:18] every bone in his body with a hammer and
[01:08:20] kept injecting him with cocaine to keep
[01:08:22] him keep him awake while they were doing
[01:08:24] it and then they cut his hands off and
[01:08:26] cut his head off. Jesus.
[01:08:28] >> And this guy that I used to train with
[01:08:29] got arrested for that.
[01:08:31] >> Jesus.
[01:08:31] >> Yeah. He didn't wind up going to jail
[01:08:33] for that. He's dead now, but he was it
[01:08:37] somehow or another at least
[01:08:39] peripherilally involved.
[01:08:40] >> Yeah. Well, I didn't do any fighting,
[01:08:42] but I I went around and found a lot of
[01:08:44] the one of the things about be, you
[01:08:46] know, being an actor, people will talk
[01:08:48] to you, you know, which is a
[01:08:49] amazing gift. Even if somebody's like,
[01:08:51] "Oh yeah, I killed guys." You know,
[01:08:53] they'll just come out and like it's kind
[01:08:55] of the rules all of a sudden don't
[01:08:56] apply. Like these guys in the prison,
[01:08:57] what the are they going to talk?
[01:08:58] You know what I mean? But they're like
[01:08:59] interested in it for whatever. And you
[01:09:02] know, so so you avail yourself of that
[01:09:04] and and then I had like, you know, we
[01:09:05] had people around that movie who
[01:09:08] everybody knew, yeah, he did that job.
[01:09:09] He he never got arrested. And so like,
[01:09:12] yeah, people, you know, meet PE, you
[01:09:13] know, and and uh and talk to him. And
[01:09:16] it's interesting because the such a good
[01:09:18] lesson for for doing this job which is
[01:09:20] that they're never how you think they're
[01:09:22] supposed to be like the murderer person,
[01:09:25] you know, there's always something a
[01:09:26] little I remember one guy was supposed
[01:09:28] to be like this really violent kind of
[01:09:29] loose cannon
[01:09:31] >> guy who supposedly had done all this
[01:09:33] stabbed and killed two people
[01:09:35] Faniel Hall and shot these guys in a in
[01:09:38] a robbery and he like shows up with his
[01:09:40] polo shirt kind of tucked in, you know,
[01:09:42] how's it going? you know, just like I
[01:09:44] never would have put this guy on
[01:09:46] killing [laughter] four people,
[01:09:47] you know what I mean? And they got to
[01:09:48] have a good time. So, I love that one
[01:09:50] movie and you're just thinking,
[01:09:51] man. Like, this is what And it's a
[01:09:54] really good lesson for like, you know,
[01:09:56] we tend to read a script and okay, this
[01:09:58] guy's the tough guy and he's going to be
[01:10:00] the it's like you work with like I have
[01:10:02] the like the opportunity to
[01:10:03] train with these Delta guys like you
[01:10:05] know, it's the most elite special forces
[01:10:08] combat operators in the world. I
[01:10:11] mean, I suppose the seals will take
[01:10:12] exception to that, but what just
[01:10:13] numerically, right? I think there's been
[01:10:15] less than 900 guys ever in the history
[01:10:16] of Delta. You meet them and it's they're
[01:10:20] not the biggest guys. They're not the
[01:10:21] toughest guys. They're not trying to
[01:10:22] be hard and, you know, they're
[01:10:24] the most relaxed at ease and it, you
[01:10:28] know, I found myself just being like
[01:10:29] finally I was like, what can I just ask
[01:10:31] what do you think makes somebody like
[01:10:33] qualify for the the Delta Force? Like
[01:10:35] what's a good Delta operator? He's like,
[01:10:38] "Uh, you know, problem solving."
[01:10:41] Problem solving? The guy goes, "Yeah,
[01:10:43] it's probably like your job." I was
[01:10:44] like, "No, let me take notice.
[01:10:45] [laughter]
[01:10:46] It's really not like my job." I
[01:10:47] appreciate it. A very big
[01:10:50] difference. He's like, "Yeah, you solve
[01:10:51] problems like trying to kill me." See,
[01:10:53] that's the thing. [laughter]
[01:10:54] But that that [snorts] was the closest
[01:10:55] insight I got to it, which was I've
[01:10:58] always kind of thought this about like a
[01:11:00] guys like like Brady or something.
[01:11:01] There's guys that just don't get tight
[01:11:05] and that they they are kind of able to
[01:11:07] problem solve when the problem is like,
[01:11:09] well, that helicopter's crashed and
[01:11:10] we're 200 miles inside Afghanistan and
[01:11:12] we're outnumbered six to one.
[01:11:14] How do you think we should get home?
[01:11:15] like just having your wits about you to
[01:11:18] make that calculation while by the way
[01:11:20] you're in a gunfight and things
[01:11:22] you know I'm sure that does make cuz
[01:11:24] those are the people where it was I'd be
[01:11:25] in a panic and I have no idea
[01:11:27] what to do and you get like attracted to
[01:11:30] the person who who's like seems to have
[01:11:32] it like hey I'm it's good we're going to
[01:11:34] be okay everybody get your we're
[01:11:36] going over here you'll just follow that
[01:11:38] guy you know what I mean
[01:11:39] >> and uh but it's a good it's not always
[01:11:41] the most
[01:11:43] >> maybe it's just because they're so
[01:11:44] confident they're not like I Like I
[01:11:46] don't need to prove that I can kick
[01:11:47] anybody's ass. I don't even get it in
[01:11:48] fights like have a weapon, you know what
[01:11:50] I mean? [laughter] It's kind of like
[01:11:52] it's it's just a it surprises me what it
[01:11:56] how those kinds of like extraordinary
[01:11:58] experiences in people or extraordinary
[01:12:00] people don't always manifest themselves
[01:12:02] in how they show up,
[01:12:04] >> right? We have caricatures in our head
[01:12:06] of what like these tough people are
[01:12:08] like. Well, you you see that about MMA
[01:12:10] fighters. Like there's a lot of MMA
[01:12:11] fighters. you meet them, they're like
[01:12:13] the sweetest, nicest, friendliest people
[01:12:15] in the world.
[01:12:15] >> I remember going to one of the events at
[01:12:17] in LA. I think it was a Staples and and
[01:12:21] I was backstage and and was talking to
[01:12:24] uh one of like the lawyers for the UFC
[01:12:26] about we were talking about Conor
[01:12:28] McGregor and he was telling me a great
[01:12:29] story about him and [snorts] this guy
[01:12:32] walks up and he's in a like chinos like
[01:12:35] khaki pants and like a blue button-up
[01:12:38] like you know kind of business shirt
[01:12:40] with spectacles and he's very small and
[01:12:44] I kind of don't really regard him and
[01:12:46] I'm still hearing this story. And then
[01:12:48] Patrick goes, "Matt, do you know Henry?"
[01:12:50] And I turn and it's Henry Cejudo. And
[01:12:52] I'm like, "This guy could wreck
[01:12:55] me, right? [laughter]
[01:12:57] Absolutely destroy me." And he
[01:13:01] and he is the guy that some dummy would
[01:13:03] try to pick on.
[01:13:04] >> Yeah. [clears throat] You know what I
[01:13:05] mean? Like he does not he's not carrying
[01:13:07] himself like he's he just is the thing,
[01:13:10] you know?
[01:13:10] >> And they find out a little bit too late.
[01:13:13] >> Yeah. Don't find that one out late.
[01:13:14] Yeah.
[01:13:15] >> Yeah. A lot of guys do,
[01:13:17] >> unfortunately. Yeah, that's uh it's uh
[01:13:20] well, they don't have to prove
[01:13:21] themselves, right? They do it all the
[01:13:22] time. The same with Delta Force guys.
[01:13:24] Like this idea like this like outwardly
[01:13:27] brash tough guy. Usually that kind of
[01:13:29] machismo and
[01:13:31] >> that's That's you're you're
[01:13:32] using that cuz you're insecure. The
[01:13:34] secure people are very calm and and
[01:13:37] genuinely very friendly.
[01:13:38] >> Really nice. Yeah, that's been my
[01:13:40] experience.
[01:13:41] >> Yeah, it's crazy, right? Beautiful, too.
[01:13:43] You know, I've kind of like
[01:13:44] >> what a great guy. And you feel like
[01:13:45] that's nice of you to be so so sweet to
[01:13:47] me cuz you obviously you don't have to
[01:13:49] be. [laughter]
[01:13:50] >> I'll just give you my watch if you
[01:13:51] wanted that.
[01:13:53] >> Yeah. No, it's it is a fascinating
[01:13:56] thing. It's like we have these ideas in
[01:13:58] our head, these caricatures, you know,
[01:14:00] of what what a a tough man is, what a
[01:14:02] good woman is, what this is, what that
[01:14:04] is. M
[01:14:04] >> as I think one of the beautiful things
[01:14:06] about film when a film is really good is
[01:14:09] you see these complex characters and it
[01:14:11] sort of like reformulates in your mind
[01:14:13] like what a person actually is.
[01:14:15] >> Yeah. It's seeing all kinds of different
[01:14:16] people. Yeah.
[01:14:17] >> You know and and Yeah. Yeah. I
[01:14:20] completely agree.
[01:14:20] >> I mean look the fundamental like
[01:14:22] challenge I think in life and is like
[01:14:25] it's like to find some humility which
[01:14:29] means actually thinking you might be
[01:14:30] wrong about the that you're pretty
[01:14:32] sure about. And it means that like you
[01:14:34] kind of have to assume somebody else
[01:14:36] might have a point, you know? It's not
[01:14:38] like just writing everybody else off who
[01:14:40] disagrees with you because him,
[01:14:41] he's an He's, you know, like
[01:14:44] those are things that actually take work
[01:14:46] to get to because the the first instinct
[01:14:49] because you just defend your idea or
[01:14:51] whatever. It's easier is to just
[01:14:52] >> that it's a zero sum game. Yeah. That
[01:14:54] that two competing ideas can't exist.
[01:14:57] that somebody can't be a good person
[01:14:58] like
[01:15:01] if you decide it's you disagree we don't
[01:15:03] believe so I don't know what about this
[01:15:04] or what about that
[01:15:06] >> but once you find yourself relying on
[01:15:07] like well I need to like zero out this
[01:15:09] person's humanity in order to defend my
[01:15:11] idea
[01:15:12] >> I think that's a pretty good indicator
[01:15:14] that like there's something wrong with
[01:15:15] the way you're thinking like because it
[01:15:17] can't be that you're right about
[01:15:18] everything and everyone else is bad who
[01:15:20] disagrees with you
[01:15:21] >> I think that was one of the most
[01:15:22] interesting things about the Sopranos is
[01:15:25] that the main character The guy that you
[01:15:28] loved was a murderer.
[01:15:30] >> Yeah.
[01:15:30] >> He was like who would murder his
[01:15:32] friends.
[01:15:33] >> He was a a complete mobster and a thug.
[01:15:36] But you really loved him.
[01:15:38] >> Loved the out of cared about. It
[01:15:39] was so complicated.
[01:15:42] My daughter doing the part that you
[01:15:44] found yourself being like, I don't I
[01:15:46] think you probably has to kill him now.
[01:15:48] I gota kill.
[01:15:49] >> That's also that's also great a great
[01:15:51] actor. Like there's a very famous story
[01:15:53] about Marlon Brando when he did street
[01:15:55] car Named Desire and Tennessee Williams
[01:15:58] who wrote it like freaked out because he
[01:16:02] was making Stanley Kowalsski he was
[01:16:04] making people empathize with Stanley
[01:16:06] Kowalsski and Tennessee Williams was
[01:16:08] like but I wrote him as a brute. He's
[01:16:10] this he was like a two-dimensional brute
[01:16:12] who just came and beat up his wife and
[01:16:14] you know and and was just and was
[01:16:16] supposed to be this kind of dark looming
[01:16:17] force over the play. But Brando was
[01:16:19] like, "No, he's a human being and I'm
[01:16:21] gonna play him like a human
[01:16:22] being and and it changed the the play."
[01:16:26] But but Williams reflects life in the
[01:16:29] real world. Everybody's the hero of
[01:16:31] their story. Everyone has the reasons
[01:16:32] for why they're doing and people don't
[01:16:34] set out to be like, I'm just going to or
[01:16:36] hurt someone or dominate the world. Like
[01:16:38] you think, well, I got to protect what I
[01:16:39] have. It's like even, you know, not
[01:16:41] bringing back to this movie, but it's
[01:16:42] like what I liked about RIP was it was
[01:16:44] kind of the slippery slope. you know
[01:16:45] that first time you take a little money
[01:16:47] and then well you know I gota cover that
[01:16:49] I don't want to go to jail and my reason
[01:16:51] why I did that but now I've told a lie
[01:16:53] now I got to cover that thing and now
[01:16:55] you have guys who both live by this code
[01:16:57] that's very hey you protect the people
[01:16:59] who are with you and you got to have
[01:17:00] this and so now it's two people
[01:17:02] are very similar like by that kind of
[01:17:04] slippery slope ultimately find
[01:17:06] themselves you know willing to kill one
[01:17:09] another uh because and it's really not I
[01:17:11] don't I don't believe in that one choice
[01:17:13] turn it's like more how do you find
[01:17:15] yourself, you dig yourself in a
[01:17:17] hole cuz you're just covering up the la
[01:17:19] trying to fix the last problem that's
[01:17:21] arisen, you know, and everybody thinks a
[01:17:23] b is of course the roots for themsel is
[01:17:25] like empathize with themselves. That's
[01:17:27] what we have to be concerned with
[01:17:28] ourselves, our needs, our families, our
[01:17:30] basic It's a hard to expect people
[01:17:33] to go like, "All right, and and and what
[01:17:35] about, you know, like what they think?"
[01:17:38] And I and I think that's I think it's a
[01:17:41] it's a much more honest evaluation of
[01:17:43] people. And it allows for like
[01:17:44] complexity and forgiveness and
[01:17:46] all the that's sort of beautiful
[01:17:49] about people like rather than this
[01:17:51] notion of like, well, we're going to be
[01:17:53] binary, good or bad, perfect or not,
[01:17:55] whatever, and any infraction then it's
[01:17:57] like permanently stains you. Right.
[01:18:00] Like we were talking about earlier about
[01:18:02] people that have been cancelled, you
[01:18:03] know, that that this idea that one thing
[01:18:07] you said or one thing you did and now
[01:18:09] we're going to exaggerate that to the
[01:18:11] fullest extent and cast you out of
[01:18:12] civilization for life
[01:18:13] >> in perpetuity. Yeah.
[01:18:14] >> It's crazy. And it's
[01:18:16] >> Yeah. I was because because I bet some
[01:18:19] of those people would have preferred to
[01:18:21] go to jail for 18 months or whatever to
[01:18:25] and and and then come out and say, "No,
[01:18:26] but I that that we can't I I paid my
[01:18:29] debt. Like, we're done. Like, can we be
[01:18:31] done?" Like, the the the thing about
[01:18:33] about that, you know, getting kind of
[01:18:36] excoriated
[01:18:38] publicly like that, it's it just never
[01:18:40] ends. And it's and it's the first thing
[01:18:42] that you know it's just it just will
[01:18:45] follow you to the grave. I think
[01:18:46] >> it's also this problem that people have
[01:18:48] with people that are in the public eye.
[01:18:49] They have this like desire to chop them
[01:18:51] down always, you know, and anybody that
[01:18:54] stumbles in the public eye. They want to
[01:18:55] destroy their life and they want to just
[01:18:57] pile on and you're not there with them.
[01:18:59] You don't feel the empathy. You're not
[01:19:01] talking to they're not a human being.
[01:19:03] It's just text on a screen.
[01:19:04] >> Right.
[01:19:05] >> Yeah. It's just like kind of like I was
[01:19:06] saying like that kind of sixth grade
[01:19:08] instinct to be like, "Oh, he's in
[01:19:10] trouble." You know, there's this we, you
[01:19:12] know, human like we have dark up
[01:19:15] instincts too sometimes to like isolate
[01:19:17] people or get joy out of someone else's
[01:19:20] they're in trouble because maybe because
[01:19:21] part of it saying, "Hey, it's not me,
[01:19:23] you know." So if you can point the
[01:19:24] finger, everyone's looking over there.
[01:19:26] We feel safer, you know?
[01:19:27] >> Right.
[01:19:28] >> But it's it's like Yeah. And to to to
[01:19:30] take any forgiveness out of it, you
[01:19:32] know, is a really up thing
[01:19:34] because then it makes it impossible a to
[01:19:36] actually go, "All right, yeah, I did
[01:19:38] that. That was wrong. I get
[01:19:40] it." You know, because it doesn't matter
[01:19:42] once you've said you've done it. You you
[01:19:44] become like an outcast. And I don't
[01:19:46] think anybody wants to think, you know,
[01:19:48] like you're the sum total of who you are
[01:19:49] is your worst moment, right?
[01:19:51] >> You know, it's sort of like
[01:19:52] >> the you know, you know, I think you want
[01:19:54] to be judged just as well. Are you
[01:19:56] capable of doing something good or
[01:19:57] something beautiful? It's not to say to
[01:19:58] forget, you know, there's people that
[01:19:59] just over and over and over again doing
[01:20:01] horrible don't care. I get it. No
[01:20:03] one's trying to like absolve that, but
[01:20:05] you remove the ability to sort of
[01:20:07] forgive people or look at them in a
[01:20:09] complicated way. Or else it's kind of
[01:20:10] one become of those things. It's like a
[01:20:12] >> get one of ours or one of them, the
[01:20:14] instinct to get like a team tribal
[01:20:17] oriented and it just becomes a sport,
[01:20:19] you know?
[01:20:19] >> Yeah. Yeah. It's also like who wants to
[01:20:22] live in a world with no forgiveness and
[01:20:23] redemption? That's crazy. Like that's
[01:20:26] just denying the very nature of human
[01:20:28] beings
[01:20:29] >> and that people do things that they
[01:20:31] regret and they do and then they become
[01:20:32] better people because of it and to
[01:20:35] >> yeah some of the people I would rely on
[01:20:37] the most like trust my kids with the
[01:20:38] most have done that they that they
[01:20:41] really regret and you know was yeah
[01:20:43] objectively wrong and then the people
[01:20:45] who've been like a I did that I
[01:20:46] whether it's like addiction I
[01:20:48] got myself down this route I did
[01:20:49] this I did this they're able to go I did
[01:20:51] it I'm sorry it's real I shouldn't have
[01:20:54] done it it was wrong that actually that
[01:20:56] those people can become someone that's
[01:20:58] very trustworthy because you're like
[01:21:00] this will say if they've
[01:21:02] done something they'll actually look at
[01:21:03] their own behavior they'll acknowledge
[01:21:05] it and then you feel you feel good and
[01:21:07] you feel much versus someone who tells
[01:21:09] you like I'm I'm no I got all I always
[01:21:11] get right everything's
[01:21:12] >> well it's like it's all it's about
[01:21:13] evolution right and and and in our own
[01:21:16] personal evolution and we're all in our
[01:21:18] on our own path towards that like the
[01:21:21] the the idea of attacking someone it's
[01:21:23] like Oh, so you you ace the test like
[01:21:26] put your pencil down like you nailed
[01:21:28] being human
[01:21:30] >> you're done that if you nail being human
[01:21:33] that's not possible because you forgot
[01:21:35] about the part about forgiveness which
[01:21:37] is a giant
[01:21:37] >> part you haven't nailed it by definition
[01:21:39] if you're out there throwing stones
[01:21:41] >> it's most of the people that I find
[01:21:42] especially when there's someone that's
[01:21:43] publicly in trouble for something most
[01:21:45] of the people that I know that have
[01:21:47] attacked people have a lot of
[01:21:48] questionable in their past and it's
[01:21:50] almost like they're trying to hide that
[01:21:52] by going on the attack. That's that
[01:21:53] thing like if I can point my finger,
[01:21:54] it's like no one's going to be
[01:21:56] >> Yeah. Oh, he's a good guy. Ben's a good
[01:21:58] guy. He's calling them out.
[01:21:59] >> Yeah, exactly.
[01:22:00] >> Meanwhile, you know,
[01:22:02] >> if you like like
[01:22:03] >> Yeah. I It's like you you were telling
[01:22:05] me to see uh wake up dead man, the
[01:22:07] knives out the third knives. It's great.
[01:22:09] And I watched I really liked it. I
[01:22:10] thought it was a really interesting like
[01:22:12] >> you know I'm not a religious guy. I
[01:22:14] don't like that's you know and yeah I'm
[01:22:16] aware of all the like okay you know
[01:22:18] there's the religion then there's people
[01:22:20] who supposed to be rational. I thought
[01:22:21] it was a really beautiful movie about
[01:22:24] like what's the role of grace in life
[01:22:26] you know and and a really honest
[01:22:28] examination of that like sitting doesn't
[01:22:31] side by side with yeah okay you don't
[01:22:33] believe that but like you and you know
[01:22:36] and it's not about like whether you're
[01:22:37] going to argue over evolution.
[01:22:39] It's about like how graceful are you in
[01:22:42] your life, you know? How much
[01:22:44] dignity can you afford other people? And
[01:22:45] are you willing to recognize and see
[01:22:47] that there's maybe something bigger than
[01:22:49] yourself and that there's a reason to to
[01:22:51] like uh to try to sort of be
[01:22:53] >> to find that grace to get better, you
[01:22:55] know? I thought it was really beautiful
[01:22:56] and kind of rare and
[01:22:58] >> uh really surprised.
[01:22:59] >> I was really surprised, too. I I kind of
[01:23:01] put it on and not, you know, not not
[01:23:03] thinking murder myster I I loved it.
[01:23:06] Yeah.
[01:23:07] >> Yeah. I loved it, too. I think it's one
[01:23:08] of the best of the three.
[01:23:10] >> It's uh my favorite. It was my favorite
[01:23:12] of the three.
[01:23:12] >> Those are great. Daniel Craig is great
[01:23:14] in that role.
[01:23:15] >> He's fantastic.
[01:23:16] >> I mean, guy goes from James Bond to that
[01:23:18] and so many other things as well. Joshua
[01:23:21] Joshua Connor that who played the
[01:23:22] priest. I because I first saw him on uh
[01:23:25] on the crown.
[01:23:26] >> Crown. Yeah, I liked him a lot.
[01:23:28] >> I Man, what an actor he is.
[01:23:30] >> Really, really good.
[01:23:31] >> How much film do you guys consume? Do
[01:23:33] you do you spend a lot of time watching
[01:23:35] films? I mean, the company depends.
[01:23:38] There's a lot like if we're working as
[01:23:39] we're watching cuts after cuts and going
[01:23:41] to the editing room, like there's a lot
[01:23:42] of kind of work around
[01:23:45] all the stuff that we have going that
[01:23:46] that that eats into a lot of time.
[01:23:48] >> I'm mostly trying to keep up with what
[01:23:51] people are doing. My issue is really
[01:23:53] that like we've kind of developed this
[01:23:55] pattern where all these sort of movies
[01:23:56] that come out and are more interesting
[01:23:58] and very like they're all jammed out at
[01:24:00] the last month of the year. And
[01:24:01] so all of a sudden you're trying to race
[01:24:03] these movies. Yeah. I got really lucky
[01:24:05] like uh recently my son you know who's
[01:24:08] 13 decided he wants to like watch movies
[01:24:12] you know and I like give him like
[01:24:13] what are you we always looking
[01:24:14] at Tik Tok and like let's watch a
[01:24:16] movie and you know he's kind of blowing
[01:24:18] me off and roll his eyes and like you
[01:24:20] know I mean if you're a dad you're kind
[01:24:21] of an fundamentally like come on
[01:24:23] dad you don't know what's going on you
[01:24:24] know what I mean like he told me one
[01:24:26] time he was like dad I said let's watch
[01:24:28] this movie and I played in the trailer
[01:24:30] it was it was I can't remember what the
[01:24:32] movie was it was a good movie and the
[01:24:34] trailer was good. He just looks at it
[01:24:36] and goes, "You know what you guys ought
[01:24:37] to do? You guys ought to work with some
[01:24:39] of the TikTok editors." I was just
[01:24:41] [laughter] like, "Wow."
[01:24:44] I went and told the editors, I told
[01:24:45] Billy and Chris, I like, "Guys, I got
[01:24:47] news for you [laughter] guys." But but
[01:24:50] now he's like, "All right, let's watch
[01:24:51] like what are some movies I should
[01:24:52] watch?" He got Ladder Box. He got into
[01:24:54] that thing, you know? It's like, so I
[01:24:55] was like, so I said, "Okay, what are the
[01:24:57] great movies? I'll give you a list." I
[01:24:58] started giving him a list. They started
[01:25:00] watching them. And so, I mean, this is
[01:25:02] like heaven for me. So I was like,
[01:25:03] "Okay, what are you watching?" King of
[01:25:04] Comedy. Like last week I watched Baxi
[01:25:06] Driver, King K, all these Scorsese
[01:25:08] movies
[01:25:09] >> and it really was like, "Oh man, I I cuz
[01:25:11] in my mind I'm like, "Sure, I've seen
[01:25:13] that movie. I know it." I watched them
[01:25:14] again. It was I like seeing I realized
[01:25:17] how much better they were than I even
[01:25:19] could appreciate when I watched it when
[01:25:20] I was younger.
[01:25:21] >> And it really and it was just the most
[01:25:24] beautiful experience for me to
[01:25:26] watch with my son. Like he's taking an
[01:25:27] interest. And this is the, you know, the
[01:25:29] older two have always been a little bit
[01:25:30] like, "Yeah, dad, no. Great." But hey,
[01:25:32] you guys want to come to the premiere?
[01:25:33] No, not really. Uh, [laughter] you know
[01:25:34] what I mean? You guys want to come to
[01:25:36] the set? No, I'm good. You know,
[01:25:37] >> well, it's just too much familiarity.
[01:25:39] You know, you grew up with a dad who's a
[01:25:41] movie star. You're just like,
[01:25:42] >> the kids got in and I get it. You got to
[01:25:44] be your own person, do your thing. They
[01:25:45] have all their own and I get, you
[01:25:47] know, I never even So, I never expected
[01:25:49] it from my son and I don't know that
[01:25:50] he's going to, you know, and I wouldn't
[01:25:52] want to lean on him like, hey, get into
[01:25:54] the family business.
[01:25:55] >> Um, most of the time it's just like, you
[01:25:57] know, we go to like basketball games,
[01:25:59] baseball, all that type of stuff.
[01:26:00] Um, but it but this was a really that
[01:26:03] was like I was like so joyful, you know
[01:26:06] what I mean? To sit there and watch the
[01:26:08] movies with my my kid. I like I was like
[01:26:11] this doesn't get better. This is the
[01:26:12] happiest I may ever be in my whole life,
[01:26:15] you know, right here. Watch this movie
[01:26:17] and he's like, well, he's telling me
[01:26:18] what he thinks, you know, just like like
[01:26:21] honestly the rest of it you can
[01:26:22] keep it, you know?
[01:26:23] >> That's awesome.
[01:26:24] >> That's the best. Well, it's great that
[01:26:26] you guys still love film, you know, that
[01:26:28] it's it hasn't become just a job. It
[01:26:31] hasn't become a thing that you do that
[01:26:32] you really enjoy it and love it.
[01:26:34] >> Yeah. It was never a job. I mean, it
[01:26:36] really like it was it was like the an
[01:26:38] absolute dream from the time we were
[01:26:40] kids. We did high school theater
[01:26:43] together, you know? Like
[01:26:44] >> that's crazy.
[01:26:45] >> Yeah. Um,
[01:26:46] >> it was like we're lucky to get it and
[01:26:48] lucky to
[01:26:49] >> the whole idea that you could even the
[01:26:50] goal was like to make a living
[01:26:52] >> to not have to be like, well, I'm an
[01:26:53] actor, you know, slash a waiter,
[01:26:55] contractor, dental assistant, whatever
[01:26:57] [laughter] the it is, you know,
[01:26:58] like actually I can earn money. I can
[01:27:00] and we always figured like I don't need
[01:27:02] that much, especially if we have kids.
[01:27:03] Yeah. You know, okay, we can make a
[01:27:05] living or it's, you know, maybe it's
[01:27:06] going to be dinner theater or
[01:27:08] maybe it's going to be rent. Maybe it's
[01:27:09] going to be
[01:27:09] >> there'll be a job somewhere that we can
[01:27:11] find where we can do this and keep doing
[01:27:13] it. Yeah. Well, there's something that I
[01:27:15] mean, I love when people love things. I
[01:27:17] I I spend time on YouTube watching
[01:27:19] people like u fix watches, you know,
[01:27:22] like I I don't know why, but I I love
[01:27:24] when people make furniture. I love I
[01:27:26] love watching people do things that they
[01:27:28] really love that they're invested in. I
[01:27:30] think we all have that thing in us where
[01:27:33] we see someone who's got a passion for
[01:27:35] something, someone who really loves it.
[01:27:36] And that's what everybody really wants
[01:27:38] in life, to be lost in the thing you
[01:27:40] love, to have a purpose.
[01:27:42] >> And it's beautiful.
[01:27:43] Watching someone else with true purpose
[01:27:45] is
[01:27:46] >> very it's hypnotic. It reminds me of Joe
[01:27:48] versus the volcano where he goes in to
[01:27:49] buy luggage.
[01:27:50] >> You like luggage, sir? He's like, uh, he
[01:27:52] was luggage is the central preoccupation
[01:27:55] of my life.
[01:27:56] >> Guy's a luggage salesman and he
[01:27:58] loves
[01:27:59] >> nothing more than luggage.
[01:28:01] And it's the greatest scene. I
[01:28:03] [laughter] asked Tom Hanks about that
[01:28:04] when I did Saving Private Ryan. I was
[01:28:06] like, "Can you tell me about that
[01:28:07] scene?" Cuz we love this scene so much.
[01:28:08] And he go and he named the actor. He was
[01:28:10] a Broadway actor, I guess. the guy he
[01:28:11] came in he worked for like one day in
[01:28:13] this scene and he's so good in that
[01:28:15] movie and then at the very end he's
[01:28:17] showing him all the luggage and Tom
[01:28:19] Hanks has unlimited money to spend he
[01:28:20] thinks he's dying and so he basically
[01:28:22] goes like well what's the best luggage
[01:28:24] and he goes well if you know and he
[01:28:25] opens if I had the means sir and he
[01:28:28] opens up this thing and there's this
[01:28:29] trunk and it's like this music plays and
[01:28:31] he opens it and Tom Hanks is like
[01:28:33] >> I'll take two of them [clears throat] he
[01:28:35] goes [laughter] may you live to be a
[01:28:36] thousand years old
[01:28:39] the greatest day of his
[01:28:41] >> [laughter]
[01:28:42] >> Oh god,
[01:28:44] >> that's amazing. You guys have been in
[01:28:45] some bangers, man.
[01:28:48] >> Saving Private Ryan. That opening film,
[01:28:50] The Storming of the Beach.
[01:28:51] >> Unbelievable.
[01:28:52] >> That might be the the most realistic
[01:28:54] depiction of war that's ever been made.
[01:28:56] >> So, I remember reading the script and
[01:28:58] there was all this dialogue, all this
[01:29:00] stuff that was written. I came late
[01:29:01] because I'm only in the he shot it
[01:29:03] chronologically and I'm only in the
[01:29:04] last, you know, the last act of the
[01:29:06] movie basically. and and uh and he told
[01:29:10] me on set I was saying how I go how did
[01:29:12] it go the beginning go you know there's
[01:29:14] that all that dialogue with them on the
[01:29:16] boat coming in and and Stephen goes he
[01:29:19] just goes I cut I cut all of that out he
[01:29:22] goes he goes no talking for the first 27
[01:29:25] minutes of this movie
[01:29:27] >> and that was when I was like oh my god
[01:29:29] this movie is going to be
[01:29:30] >> un
[01:29:31] >> I think Tom says like I'll see you on
[01:29:33] the beach or something he scre you know
[01:29:34] guys are puking
[01:29:35] >> look at the man next to Yeah, remember
[01:29:37] he's not going to live to that. That was
[01:29:38] the script, right? Remember that? It was
[01:29:40] it was it was look at the man next to
[01:29:42] you, he won't live. You know, you're
[01:29:43] like, "Two out of three of you are going
[01:29:44] to die. So, look at to your left, look
[01:29:46] to your right, and feel bad for those
[01:29:48] two sons of cuz they're not
[01:29:50] going to make it." You know, it was
[01:29:51] stuff like that. And Stephen's just
[01:29:53] like, "Nope.
[01:29:54] >> No, no. These guys are puking. They're
[01:29:57] It's like the things up. You could just
[01:29:58] hear,
[01:30:00] you know, and it's just like and then
[01:30:01] just boom, and you're into it." And also
[01:30:04] they did this incredible like cinema
[01:30:07] changing open the shutter all the way
[01:30:10] motion blur skip the the bleach process
[01:30:13] in developing the film.
[01:30:14] >> I don't and I don't know if they're
[01:30:17] going to 22 or 23 frames anywhere in
[01:30:19] there maybe. But I I I just remember
[01:30:21] maybe it's just the open shutters just
[01:30:24] yeah it just means that instead of like
[01:30:25] the motion blur is what makes something
[01:30:26] that like moves across the frame
[01:30:28] quickly. If you look at each frame, it's
[01:30:30] like a blurred thing. And when you roll
[01:30:32] those 24 frames, it gives you this the
[01:30:34] illusion that it moves across fluidly.
[01:30:36] And if you basically open the shutter up
[01:30:38] so you get much more light. Each frame
[01:30:40] takes a super sharp picture. And when
[01:30:42] you run those together, like the piece
[01:30:43] of dust goes,
[01:30:45] >> and so the mortar explosions are going
[01:30:47] and it and you get that feeling that
[01:30:49] you're adrenalized and you're seeing,
[01:30:50] you know what I mean? And it's just and
[01:30:52] nobody had ever done it. just the master
[01:30:55] of the thing, understood how to use the
[01:30:57] tools and combined with a great idea and
[01:30:59] it's
[01:30:59] >> that's just masterful. Like that's just
[01:31:01] how you do it. There's nobody who
[01:31:02] directs movies who doesn't go ah it's
[01:31:04] Spielberg, you know, it's that's how you
[01:31:06] do it.
[01:31:07] >> It's just like you say, one of those
[01:31:09] things a guy that's passionate and also,
[01:31:11] >> you know, caring about something, you
[01:31:14] know, it's that that to with that much
[01:31:16] passion is kind of connected to
[01:31:18] greatness. Yeah. And it's I think why we
[01:31:21] love to see that whe you know sports
[01:31:23] you know fighting or whatever it
[01:31:26] is there's something that makes you kind
[01:31:28] of love being alive and also love that
[01:31:31] that person when you go like when
[01:31:33] you see Michael Jordan like that was
[01:31:34] that whole movie that we did airs really
[01:31:36] all about like what does it mean to be
[01:31:38] great and how does it like touch
[01:31:40] everybody and change everybody and make
[01:31:42] people want to improve their own
[01:31:44] lives because somebody's just better at
[01:31:47] at that thing than anybody else in the
[01:31:50] world.
[01:31:50] >> Yeah.
[01:31:51] >> It's it's trans it's fixing you know I
[01:31:53] mean I find that
[01:31:55] >> really fascinating like I you know
[01:31:57] people who are great at something and
[01:31:59] the mystery of like well what is that
[01:32:00] like and what does that do to your life
[01:32:02] and how did you get that way and what
[01:32:03] does it take you know
[01:32:04] >> and [snorts] what's the cost
[01:32:06] >> because to truly be great at something
[01:32:08] you have to kind of almost abandon
[01:32:09] everything. I I've seen that in various
[01:32:12] ways like in that kind of just empirical
[01:32:16] personal study. I haven't seen anybody
[01:32:18] who I think like qualifies for that who
[01:32:20] who didn't also seem to be really
[01:32:22] suffering 100%
[01:32:23] >> you know and you're like damn you should
[01:32:24] be so happy you're the greatest you and
[01:32:26] you know interviewers always how do you
[01:32:28] feel right now and there's that sense
[01:32:29] that like either it's never finished or
[01:32:31] it's never enough or they can't enjoy it
[01:32:33] or they're car it's that line we put in
[01:32:36] air where it's like and you have to be
[01:32:37] that thing to be that thing
[01:32:38] >> you know like it's a kind of a burden
[01:32:40] too in a way
[01:32:41] >> 100%
[01:32:42] >> and I just see that and that's why we we
[01:32:44] want these heroes and people who are
[01:32:46] great to I don't know, you know,
[01:32:49] flourish and have their life and have it
[01:32:50] all in hand. Like there's all this
[01:32:51] tragedy and all this stuff that happens
[01:32:53] too. And I I it's yeah that's like you
[01:32:57] say there seems to be a real cost.
[01:32:58] >> Well, there's always a massive cost in
[01:33:00] personal relationships because there's
[01:33:02] no way you have the time for other
[01:33:03] things. And the obsession that you have
[01:33:05] to be the best at something, you have to
[01:33:07] abandon almost all your concern for
[01:33:10] everything else. You have to have this
[01:33:11] single-minded focus and that comes with
[01:33:14] a cost for the rest of your life because
[01:33:16] you damage relationships. You feel like
[01:33:18] a piece of
[01:33:19] >> and you see that up close and like
[01:33:20] that's not admirable, right?
[01:33:22] >> You don't give a about anybody
[01:33:23] else. No, I do. I just care about this
[01:33:26] more.
[01:33:26] >> You know, it's like so imagine that
[01:33:28] you're making the sacrifices and it's
[01:33:30] causing injury to people and you know it
[01:33:32] and you don't want to hurt them but you
[01:33:33] can't help it
[01:33:34] >> and you're getting rewarded for it. You
[01:33:35] know, it's
[01:33:36] >> it's complicated. Yeah. That's
[01:33:38] >> it's crazy because you inspire all these
[01:33:40] people that don't know you and you ruin
[01:33:41] all your relationship. [laughter]
[01:33:43] >> Right. That's right.
[01:33:44] >> Maybe that's why I say don't meet your
[01:33:45] heroes.
[01:33:46] >> Yeah. Exactly.
[01:33:47] >> There's something to it, man. There
[01:33:49] really is.
[01:33:50] >> But it's just we all grow from it.
[01:33:53] There's a fuel to watching greatness.
[01:33:56] >> There's a thing that that hits you and
[01:33:58] lights you up where you want to do more.
[01:34:00] You want to be better. you want to
[01:34:02] whatever it is that you can do, whatever
[01:34:04] it is you do do, you become more whether
[01:34:06] it's a great game, a winning touchdown,
[01:34:08] whether it's a great film, a great song.
[01:34:11] Yeah. It lights you up and it it's the
[01:34:13] fuel that we all live off of that
[01:34:15] consumes that like we consume to make
[01:34:18] our culture move forward.
[01:34:19] >> Yeah.
[01:34:20] >> There's like a sacrificial element to
[01:34:22] it, the people that do it and we all
[01:34:24] feed off of it, you know, and it feels
[01:34:25] like, well, that's the person that
[01:34:27] doesn't get enough out of it, you know?
[01:34:28] >> Right. Right. But in great film, I mean,
[01:34:31] how many lives have been changed by
[01:34:33] decisions made after great films? Like
[01:34:35] when I was a kid, I think I was like
[01:34:37] seven or eight or something when Rocky
[01:34:39] came out and I
[01:34:41] >> I saw it and immediately ran around the
[01:34:42] block. I've never won in my life.
[01:34:44] [laughter]
[01:34:44] Like I was eating raw eggs. I was like
[01:34:47] I'm like this is going to change my
[01:34:49] life. Like it it there's things that
[01:34:51] happen when you see something truly
[01:34:53] great that it makes you want to be
[01:34:55] better as a human being.
[01:34:56] I remember where I was when I saw Denzel
[01:34:59] Washington play Malcolm X. Went to the
[01:35:01] movie, watched that movie and I remember
[01:35:03] leaving I was 19 or thinking I want to
[01:35:05] be a better man.
[01:35:06] >> I thought that in my mind, you know,
[01:35:09] because of what I had seen
[01:35:11] >> this actor do and this per and the way,
[01:35:13] you know, that was the only real
[01:35:14] conscious thought I had. But I remember
[01:35:16] having it and and kind of being
[01:35:18] surprised by it, you know, and it does
[01:35:20] it it it that can, you know, it's
[01:35:23] really touched me, you know, a lot of
[01:35:24] people's work and and that's why
[01:35:27] you get that like,
[01:35:29] >> you know, you you you see people you
[01:35:31] want to let them know, you know what I
[01:35:32] mean? And tell them and um I I always
[01:35:35] think people come to go, "Hey, I love
[01:35:36] that movie." I always feel like, "Ah,
[01:35:37] you don't have to say that." You know
[01:35:38] what I mean? Right. uh it makes me kind
[01:35:40] of uncomfortable and I I don't ever like
[01:35:43] put myself in with those figures who I
[01:35:45] think are like no but there's these
[01:35:47] these towering giants who have done this
[01:35:50] you know I don't know it's uh it's not
[01:35:54] it's it's it's I finally kind of arrived
[01:35:56] to a place where I was like it's always
[01:35:57] uncomfortable oh I saw hunting it made
[01:35:59] me want to go out to Hollywood write a
[01:36:01] script and I think oh I [laughter]
[01:36:03] go you know what I mean like man
[01:36:07] a certain point I fig Okay, you know
[01:36:09] what? Whatever it is, like great. That's
[01:36:11] that's
[01:36:12] >> the cost of your fame, you know, that
[01:36:14] you have to there's going to be a bunch
[01:36:15] of people that are going to come up to
[01:36:16] you and then want to say those things to
[01:36:17] you and like the wanting them to say
[01:36:20] those things to you is the opposite of
[01:36:23] the mindset that you need to make those
[01:36:26] things.
[01:36:26] >> Exactly. Exactly. [laughter]
[01:36:27] >> Which is is so counterintuitive. You
[01:36:29] think like once you become really
[01:36:30] successful and you make a bunch of great
[01:36:32] things, it's going to be awesome having
[01:36:33] all these people come up to you like,
[01:36:34] "No, no, no. I'm doing something else
[01:36:36] right now. And I can't be all wrapped up
[01:36:38] in the fact that I'm changing your
[01:36:39] [laughter] life.
[01:36:40] >> And also, I can't be satisfied or take
[01:36:42] any joy in that cuz I I don't
[01:36:44] think I'm good enough. I need to
[01:36:46] You know what I mean?
[01:36:47] >> Right. Never satisfied. Yeah. You can't.
[01:36:49] And that's the the darkness of trying to
[01:36:51] do something great. You'll never be
[01:36:53] satisfied.
[01:36:53] >> You see it in a lot of the fighters, the
[01:36:55] same kind of thing. The great great
[01:36:56] fighter.
[01:36:57] >> Well, also fighters have a very small
[01:36:59] window of greatness. There's there's
[01:37:01] only like a certain amount of years we
[01:37:03] can burn the RPMs at at the red line and
[01:37:05] then eventually the knees go, the back
[01:37:07] goes, you start.
[01:37:08] >> Is it earlier than other sports? It must
[01:37:09] be. Yeah.
[01:37:10] >> Yes, I think so because like Tom Brady
[01:37:13] is still elite. I bet he could probably
[01:37:14] play football right now. I bet he You
[01:37:16] know what? How old is Tom now? 49.
[01:37:18] >> Probably 47 or eight now probably.
[01:37:20] >> I bet he could still play, you know.
[01:37:22] >> Yeah. I mean, but that's a Yeah, I mean
[01:37:23] that's a very specific skill position
[01:37:25] and the way he played it he you know.
[01:37:27] >> Right. But running back No. Right. But
[01:37:30] at cornerback,
[01:37:31] >> the elite levels of MMA, especially with
[01:37:33] USADA testing and, you know, and now uh
[01:37:36] drug-free sport testing when they are
[01:37:39] making sure that people aren't on
[01:37:41] testosterone and growth hormone, all
[01:37:43] these different things like you have
[01:37:44] nine years. You have nine years at peak
[01:37:46] performance. That's legitimate. Like,
[01:37:48] >> how long's Jon Jones been going?
[01:37:50] >> Jon Jones is a freak of all freaks cuz
[01:37:52] Jon Jones beat Daniel Cormier when he
[01:37:54] was on Coke. That was one of the funny
[01:37:56] things he said in the uh in the press
[01:37:58] conference for the rematch. Daniel was
[01:38:00] talking He goes, "I beat you when
[01:38:01] I was on Coke." [laughter]
[01:38:07] >> I mean, he was getting arrested. He was
[01:38:10] partying for when he fought uh
[01:38:12] Gustiffson. He beat Gustoson and he
[01:38:15] didn't train at all. I talked to his
[01:38:18] trainer. He's like, "He didn't even show
[01:38:19] up at the gym. He was never
[01:38:21] there. He was never training. He could
[01:38:22] just show up and beat everybody's ass."
[01:38:24] I saw a thing uh on my Instagram feed of
[01:38:26] a fighter and I I don't know who it was,
[01:38:28] but he was a heavyweight and he goes, "I
[01:38:31] had the chance to spar with Jon Jones to
[01:38:33] to work with Jon Jones." And he goes, "I
[01:38:36] you know, I I knew about it months ahead
[01:38:38] of time." He goes, "I got every my
[01:38:40] nutrition, everything was absolutely
[01:38:42] flawless. I got, you know, my sleep,
[01:38:44] everything was on." He goes, "I show up
[01:38:46] at the gym that morning." He goes,
[01:38:47] >> it's me and five other guys. He goes, he
[01:38:50] comes in, I think he went to sleep at 4
[01:38:52] in the morning or something. out and he
[01:38:54] goes he ran through all six.
[01:38:56] >> That's my buddy Brennan Shaw.
[01:38:57] >> Is that who it was? Okay. Yeah.
[01:38:58] [laughter] It was the funniest story.
[01:39:00] And he goes and then I just knew, you
[01:39:02] know, like that's that's a level like
[01:39:05] but imagine being that elite
[01:39:07] >> and and realizing there's another level.
[01:39:10] >> Yeah. Oh yeah. Brendan was a top 10
[01:39:12] heavyweight and John wasn't even a
[01:39:13] heavyweight. John was a light
[01:39:15] heavyweight.
[01:39:16] >> It was a lower weight class and he just
[01:39:18] beat everybody's ass. And he said this
[01:39:20] is his warm-up.
[01:39:22] >> [laughter]
[01:39:23] >> He's just kidding. They just
[01:39:25] everybody up. I mean, he has a unique
[01:39:27] aptitude for MMA, but also he had two
[01:39:30] brothers that were super athletes. Yeah.
[01:39:32] Played for the Patriots and Arthur.
[01:39:33] >> And so, these guys are super athletes.
[01:39:35] And so, they're beating the out of
[01:39:37] each other all the time. So, they're
[01:39:38] like constantly in competition with
[01:39:41] elite athletes from the time he was a
[01:39:43] child. Yeah.
[01:39:44] >> So, he was just so tuned into
[01:39:46] competition and he he so intelligent
[01:39:49] like his fight IQ was above and beyond
[01:39:52] everyone's and he would study tape
[01:39:54] meticulously.
[01:39:54] >> Well, that that that spinning kick that
[01:39:57] he did to that
[01:39:59] where he where he said he
[01:40:01] >> and I think he thanked his taekwond do
[01:40:03] coach and he said he had been working on
[01:40:05] this one specific kick from both sides.
[01:40:08] >> Yeah. because of something he saw in the
[01:40:10] tape. And he and he got it off and hit
[01:40:13] this guy so hard, not even on not even
[01:40:17] on his liver side. He hit him on the
[01:40:18] other side and you see it shutter
[01:40:20] through his entire like organ structure.
[01:40:22] >> Yeah. He his heel was deep into his body
[01:40:25] cavity like all the way up to his
[01:40:27] gnarly like and but he had but
[01:40:30] he he he just practice this one specific
[01:40:34] >> and he was like and he even said he goes
[01:40:36] it is a devastating shot like there's
[01:40:38] not a human being who could take that.
[01:40:40] >> No, it's like getting hit by a car.
[01:40:42] >> Yeah,
[01:40:42] >> because when you
[01:40:43] >> But getting hit by a car in one spot
[01:40:46] the size of a foot, the size of a 13
[01:40:48] foot.
[01:40:48] >> Oh yeah, here it is. Watch this.
[01:40:50] >> He sets him up. Boom.
[01:40:52] It's just
[01:40:53] >> it's like, yeah, no, it's over. It's
[01:40:55] over. It's over.
[01:40:56] >> And this is John moving up to
[01:40:57] heavyweight because light heavyweight
[01:40:59] wasn't a challenge anymore. He decided
[01:41:01] to become a two division champion. I
[01:41:02] mean, John was a freak.
[01:41:04] >> You see it rumbling through.
[01:41:05] >> And by the way, that was almost a little
[01:41:07] bit glancing cuz he caught him with a
[01:41:09] bent leg like he wasn't even fully
[01:41:11] extended, which you know
[01:41:13] >> was even more devast. But John realized
[01:41:16] that as a heavyweight, he didn't have
[01:41:17] the power that he had at light
[01:41:19] heavyweight. And so he said, "The most
[01:41:20] powerful kick is a spinning back kick.
[01:41:22] So I'm just going to work on that kick
[01:41:23] over and over again because that's the
[01:41:25] one tool that I have that can knock a
[01:41:27] heavyweight out with one shot."
[01:41:28] >> Wow. Okay.
[01:41:29] >> That's just
[01:41:30] >> It's not just the physicals of He's also
[01:41:31] like a genius.
[01:41:32] >> He's a genius.
[01:41:33] >> Well, he's also like he's the most
[01:41:36] meticulous when it comes to game
[01:41:37] planning and study. He will not take a
[01:41:39] short notice fight. Even a guy that he
[01:41:41] could beat any day of the week.
[01:41:43] You can wake him up at 3:00 in the
[01:41:44] morning. He could that guy up. we
[01:41:45] will not take that fight unless he gets
[01:41:47] a full training camp to prepare for that
[01:41:49] fight.
[01:41:51] >> Well, it's just, you know, greatness.
[01:41:52] But John's troubled. You know, John's
[01:41:54] been arrested a bunch of times and DUIs
[01:41:57] and all kinds of crazy and he's,
[01:41:59] you know, he's a wild fella. And, you
[01:42:02] know, and that pursuit of greatness, I'm
[01:42:04] sure, has cost him a lot of in his
[01:42:06] personal life. Yeah, [snorts]
[01:42:08] >> but you know when he knocks Deepay out
[01:42:10] and then did the Trump dance in front of
[01:42:11] the whole world like [laughter]
[01:42:13] >> for that moment he's on top of the world
[01:42:16] you know but then again it's like the
[01:42:18] same thing you're as soon as you get
[01:42:20] back like what's next
[01:42:22] >> you know there's there's another
[01:42:23] challenge doesn't matter how many how
[01:42:25] many people love you now like it's not
[01:42:26] good enough there's someone else looming
[01:42:28] you got to beat this guy
[01:42:30] >> that seems like a kind of an agonizing
[01:42:32] thing to both have the like complete
[01:42:34] compulsion to have to get to the next
[01:42:36] level and the next level keeps
[01:42:39] moving the goalpost. You
[01:42:41] >> I'll never forget um I interviewed Matt
[01:42:43] Hughes after he lost to BJ Penn. He lost
[01:42:45] the welterweight title to BJ Penn and
[01:42:48] I'm interviewing him inside the octagon.
[01:42:49] He said I'm going to be honest with you
[01:42:51] is actually a relief. And he goes, "The
[01:42:53] pressure of being the champion and
[01:42:55] having someone chasing you for so in the
[01:42:58] whole world chasing you." He goes, "I'm
[01:43:00] going to be I thought it was an
[01:43:01] incredibly
[01:43:03] >> brave moment for a guy to say that who
[01:43:05] is, you know, just this amazing
[01:43:08] human being, this warrior to say, I just
[01:43:10] got to be honest. It's a relief. Losing
[01:43:12] my title feels like a relief."
[01:43:15] >> And [snorts] I was like, "Wow." Like
[01:43:16] that that is so so brave to be that
[01:43:20] honest in front of the because
[01:43:21] everybody's like you just got your ass
[01:43:22] kicked. It's like I'm this is a relief.
[01:43:25] >> You know, it took a burden off my back.
[01:43:27] I'll be back. I'm going to regroup. But
[01:43:28] I I needed that. I needed to just
[01:43:31] >> step off the top of the hill for
[01:43:33] a little while. Jesus Christ.
[01:43:34] >> You got to be like a great actually
[01:43:36] relief to be able to say something like
[01:43:38] that. It's kind of a gift instead of
[01:43:39] feeling like you got to hide or pretend
[01:43:41] it and go, "Yeah, I'm hiding from my
[01:43:43] leaves. It was a lot to carry and
[01:43:44] now I you know." Well, the thing about
[01:43:46] fighting is everything you try to hide
[01:43:47] gets exposed. You're exposed completely
[01:43:49] during camp because they're doing these
[01:43:52] these round what they take like
[01:43:54] >> try if I was here.
[01:43:55] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Smoke up. They're
[01:43:57] taking like, you know, five guys and
[01:44:00] they're rotating them in with you. So,
[01:44:03] you're doing five rounds with fresh
[01:44:05] guys. So you got one guy who's
[01:44:08] warmed up, getting, you know, getting
[01:44:10] ready for you and then you're
[01:44:11] out of breath and they give you a 30
[01:44:13] second break instead of a minute and
[01:44:14] then they're throwing in these monsters
[01:44:16] and, you know, you're exposed. You're
[01:44:18] you're getting beat in training. You're
[01:44:20] getting smothered in training. You're
[01:44:21] you're exhausted. You know, you're
[01:44:23] always reaching your limits cuz the only
[01:44:26] way to surpass those limits is to hit
[01:44:27] them. You got to hit them and then they
[01:44:29] got to figure out where that limit is
[01:44:30] and okay, next week we're going to do
[01:44:32] one extra round. We're going to do this.
[01:44:33] We're going to do that. we got to do
[01:44:34] more strength and conditioning. We're
[01:44:36] going to push you past wherever your
[01:44:37] capacity is right now. So, you're always
[01:44:39] breaking. You're always you're always at
[01:44:42] the point where you can do no more
[01:44:44] because it's the only way to and you can
[01:44:45] only maintain that like the condition
[01:44:47] that they get in when they step into the
[01:44:49] octagon. It's not possible to maintain
[01:44:51] that. No, right. You can only get
[01:44:53] >> you have to aim at that one moment and
[01:44:56] yeah, you have to peak and then if you
[01:44:58] up and overtrain, which a lot of
[01:44:59] those guys do just because they're such
[01:45:01] savages, they never want to leave the
[01:45:02] gym. Then they don't peak right and then
[01:45:04] they come in and they're exhausted and
[01:45:06] they didn't recover properly and then in
[01:45:07] between rounds they're too tired and
[01:45:09] they can't go out for the next round.
[01:45:10] They're too beat up. That happens too.
[01:45:13] >> I imagine that level of exhaustion has
[01:45:15] to be just insane when you overtrain.
[01:45:17] >> Oh god. you're in an actual championship
[01:45:19] >> and you realized you're there's no you
[01:45:22] can't bounce back and this guy is
[01:45:24] blasting your legs with kicks
[01:45:26] and hitting you with punches and you
[01:45:28] can't get out of the way anymore.
[01:45:29] >> Do you think who who was it? Was it
[01:45:31] Khabib who said that they they should
[01:45:33] just do 25 minute just
[01:45:35] >> Oh, a lot of people said that I mean
[01:45:37] that's a what
[01:45:41] songs are playing. What's going on
[01:45:43] technology?
[01:45:44] >> The Tesy brothers playing in my pocket.
[01:45:46] That's hilarious.
[01:45:47] >> Um, sorry about that. Uh,
[01:45:48] >> well, Hoist Gracie always said that.
[01:45:50] Like that was how he fought in the early
[01:45:52] days.
[01:45:53] >> They just straight 25 minutes
[01:45:54] >> because he was like, "Look," he goes,
[01:45:56] "Uh, if we're on the ground," he goes,
[01:45:57] "I don't want them to stand back up
[01:45:58] again and go in between rounds." And he
[01:46:01] goes, "I need time to cook them." That's
[01:46:02] what he would say. Yeah. Yeah. It was I
[01:46:05] mean, that's what jiu-jitsu is all
[01:46:06] about. Jiu-Jitsu is all about staying
[01:46:08] one step ahead of you until you become
[01:46:10] exhausted and you know and then they
[01:46:13] eventually finish you
[01:46:14] >> like a like a just
[01:46:15] >> throw a constrict.
[01:46:16] >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's the real that's
[01:46:20] but you know there's this balance of
[01:46:21] like making it interesting for this for
[01:46:24] people to watch. I I've been a proponent
[01:46:27] of no standups. Don't ever stand anybody
[01:46:29] up when a guy takes you down. Like you
[01:46:31] get an advantage at the beginning of the
[01:46:32] round anyway because a striker gets to
[01:46:34] be standing up when you didn't earn it.
[01:46:36] So you should never get stood up in a
[01:46:38] fight. I don't care if the guy's doing
[01:46:39] nothing. If he's holding you down and
[01:46:40] you can't get up, that's how it should
[01:46:42] be. So it's more realistic. But it's the
[01:46:44] balance of it being a sport. People want
[01:46:46] to watch.
[01:46:46] >> Yeah. Making it because people get when
[01:46:48] people grab someone to take him to the
[01:46:49] ground, nothing happen. People go, you
[01:46:51] hear the audience and then the referee
[01:46:53] gets a little motivated and he stands
[01:46:55] people up and I'm always like, "Ah,
[01:46:57] don't stand them up." It's
[01:46:58] >> I never thought of it that way that the
[01:47:00] beginning of the round starts it to the
[01:47:01] advantage of the
[01:47:02] >> always always you're you're in a
[01:47:04] position you didn't earn you never got
[01:47:06] back up. You know I think they should
[01:47:08] put them right back to where they were
[01:47:09] at the end of the round because it's one
[01:47:10] fight. It's not five fights. So if you
[01:47:13] start it standing up and at the
[01:47:14] beginning of each round that's a new
[01:47:15] fight.
[01:47:16] >> Yeah. Right.
[01:47:17] >> In a way when you're pitching like how
[01:47:20] quickly would the UFC go out of business
[01:47:21] if
[01:47:22] >> real quick 30 seconds they're on the
[01:47:24] ground and then it's 24 and a half
[01:47:26] minutes. Dude, I'm a terrible
[01:47:27] businessman. [laughter] I I would give
[01:47:30] the fighters more money. Like they would
[01:47:32] I would up the whole business
[01:47:33] model. I would uh I would get rid of the
[01:47:35] cage. I would have them all fight in a
[01:47:37] basketball court. Just put mats on the
[01:47:39] ground in the basketball court. I don't
[01:47:41] think you should have a cage. I think
[01:47:42] the cage gets in the way. It becomes a
[01:47:44] way to get back up because you press
[01:47:46] your back up against the cage. You can
[01:47:48] use it to stand back up again and you're
[01:47:50] in the middle of the center of a mat.
[01:47:52] It's very difficult to get back up. And
[01:47:53] that's realistic,
[01:47:55] >> right? you know, you're using a foreign
[01:47:56] object to help you perform. Yeah. Right.
[01:47:59] Yeah. But,
[01:47:59] >> you know, there's the whole macho thing
[01:48:01] about people fighting in a cage and it's
[01:48:03] like they lock you in there [laughter]
[01:48:06] match.
[01:48:06] >> Yeah. It's just uh but I mean in terms
[01:48:10] of like inspirational performances and
[01:48:13] things that you when you see like the
[01:48:15] human spirit elevated to the the the
[01:48:17] highest possible place when two very
[01:48:20] skilled men or women are fighting in a
[01:48:23] cage where they prepared for this for
[01:48:25] three months and then you know
[01:48:27] the referee's like are you ready? Are
[01:48:29] you ready? Let's go. And it's like that
[01:48:31] moment like is it's not not like
[01:48:35] anything else in all sports. I think
[01:48:36] that's the moment that like people show
[01:48:38] up for cuz they build the intensity.
[01:48:40] It's the same with like the old Tyson
[01:48:41] fights or whatever like now it's going
[01:48:43] to happen and there there you can't help
[01:48:46] but have that feeling once it you know
[01:48:48] and yeah some fights end up being
[01:48:49] disappointing whatever but there that
[01:48:51] moment is always there.
[01:48:52] >> Well, Tyson was a crazy example of what
[01:48:55] we were talking about with greatness
[01:48:56] because like you could dedicate your
[01:48:58] whole life. You could get up in
[01:49:00] the morning at the right time. You could
[01:49:01] eat all the right foods. you could do
[01:49:03] all the right training, but then you see
[01:49:05] that guy like smoke [laughter]
[01:49:07] 13 seconds.
[01:49:08] >> There's nothing I can do. I have no
[01:49:11] chance. You know, by looking at he had
[01:49:13] the just a look in his eye and you it
[01:49:14] was one of the only fighters where you
[01:49:15] just see the other guy was scared.
[01:49:17] >> Usually they at least hold himself
[01:49:19] together where they come off like, "Oh,
[01:49:21] I don't know. This guy looks pretty
[01:49:22] tough." Guys would fight Tyson and just
[01:49:24] would start and they'd feel that moment
[01:49:26] too. Oh they're letting this tiger
[01:49:28] out and here he comes. And it was like,
[01:49:30] >> well, we're old enough to remember when
[01:49:31] he was in his prime and those fights
[01:49:33] were like executions. You didn't want to
[01:49:35] pay for the pay-per-view because they
[01:49:36] were so I I swear I mean I mean Jamie
[01:49:40] might be able to prove me wrong, but I'm
[01:49:41] pretty sure that they cut to Alex
[01:49:43] Stewart and they cut to his wife and she
[01:49:45] was crying [laughter]
[01:49:47] >> and this is when they're coming to the
[01:49:48] center of the ring and she But by the
[01:49:50] way, for good reason. Like this man
[01:49:52] might kill my husband, right?
[01:49:54] >> You know what I mean? like
[01:49:54] >> he's certainly going to beat the
[01:49:56] out of him and she knows it and the
[01:49:58] world knows it and
[01:49:59] >> guys were ready to quit. Remember that
[01:50:00] dude Hurricane or whatever white kid who
[01:50:02] fought him when
[01:50:04] >> his guy couldn't wait to throw the towel
[01:50:05] in. He had it ready like you know he was
[01:50:07] ready to go. All right, that's it.
[01:50:08] That's good.
[01:50:08] >> The bell rings he picks up the towel.
[01:50:10] >> Yeah, [laughter] you got save your guy's
[01:50:11] life. You know what I mean?
[01:50:13] >> McNeel is up now, too. When you
[01:50:14] hear him talk, it's rough. It's rough to
[01:50:16] hear. Really? Yeah. I saw him get
[01:50:18] interviewed recently. That's the dark
[01:50:19] side of the sport of of MMA and of
[01:50:22] fighting. You know, you you talk like I
[01:50:24] had Johnny Knoxville on here yesterday
[01:50:26] and Johnny Knoxville was knocked
[01:50:27] unconscious 16 times.
[01:50:29] >> Jesus Christ.
[01:50:30] >> Yeah, that's what I said. And I'm like,
[01:50:31] "Holy man." And he seems normal.
[01:50:34] Like, he doesn't seem like he's got
[01:50:36] brain damage. Now, when you're talking
[01:50:37] to guys and you know they have brain
[01:50:39] damage, they're slurring their words and
[01:50:41] they're still fighting.
[01:50:43] >> Their words all mumble together. Like,
[01:50:45] you have no idea how much they're
[01:50:47] struggling.
[01:50:48] >> Like, and they'll they're going to be
[01:50:49] struggling in a downhill slope for the
[01:50:51] rest of their life. It's not going to
[01:50:52] get better. It's going to get way worse
[01:50:54] cuz the real brain damage occurs like 10
[01:50:56] years after the the injuries. That's
[01:50:58] when it really sets up.
[01:50:59] >> Really starts like just keeps
[01:51:01] >> keep getting worse. I mean, there's some
[01:51:02] therapies that they can do now. There's
[01:51:05] uh like they they do and Knoxville did
[01:51:08] some of it like this magnetic therapy
[01:51:10] that they do that reimulates neuron
[01:51:12] growth and and oddly enough mushrooms
[01:51:16] like psilocybin has been shown to all of
[01:51:18] a sudden cure a whole bunch of
[01:51:20] >> I know. Well, probably always has, you
[01:51:22] know,
[01:51:23] >> all of a sudden they acknowledging it.
[01:51:25] Yeah.
[01:51:25] >> Well, one of the things that's opening
[01:51:27] the doors for them to acknowledge it is
[01:51:28] soldiers
[01:51:29] >> because it's always been kind of like a
[01:51:31] leftwing wing thing to be into
[01:51:33] psychedelics, but all these soldiers are
[01:51:36] coming back with PTSD and drug addiction
[01:51:38] and a lot of CTE from, you know, bombs
[01:51:41] blowing up and IEDs and concussions and
[01:51:44] the only thing that's helping them is
[01:51:45] psychedelics. So, it's kind of like in
[01:51:47] Texas, uh, former Governor Rick Perry
[01:51:50] has started the Ibeane initiative. So,
[01:51:52] they're using Ibeane to help all these
[01:51:54] different soldiers, which is ironically
[01:51:56] the drug that Hunter S. Thompson claimed
[01:51:58] Ed Musky was on when he was running for
[01:52:00] president. Oh, really? Yeah. [laughter]
[01:52:02] Remember when he sank Ed Musky's? It's
[01:52:04] if
[01:52:04] >> What is I gain? I
[01:52:05] >> It's from the Aboga tree. And it is a
[01:52:07] psychedelic that is in no way
[01:52:09] recreational. It is a very difficult
[01:52:12] experience. It's not fun for anybody.
[01:52:13] It's like a 24-hour trip. I haven't done
[01:52:16] it, but my friends that have done it say
[01:52:18] that it's basically like you see your
[01:52:20] entire life play out before you. You see
[01:52:23] where all your problems come from. You
[01:52:26] see where all of your emotional hitches
[01:52:28] are. Yeah. And with addictions, it has
[01:52:31] an 80% 80 I think it's 84% with one
[01:52:35] treatment, they quit whatever they're
[01:52:37] hooked on. Not only that, it rewires the
[01:52:39] brain. So the physical pathways to
[01:52:42] addiction, like someone addict to
[01:52:44] opiates, gone, completely severed. So
[01:52:46] you literally don't have a physical
[01:52:48] addiction to opiates anymore. So with
[01:52:50] one treatment, 80 plus% of people
[01:52:52] >> That's incredible.
[01:52:53] >> With two treatments, it's in the '9s.
[01:52:56] >> That's amazing.
[01:52:56] >> It's amazing. And it's been illegal, you
[01:52:58] know, since like 1970 in this country.
[01:53:00] The sweeping psychedelics has like a
[01:53:02] clinic or whatever. Well, Rick Perry um
[01:53:04] because he's worked with soldiers and
[01:53:06] because he's worked with a lot of
[01:53:07] veterans that you know and he's a very
[01:53:10] compassionate and intelligent man, he
[01:53:11] realized like, okay, maybe I'm wrong
[01:53:13] about all this psychedelic stuff. And so
[01:53:16] he started getting behind this ibeane
[01:53:18] initiative. They passed it in Texas and
[01:53:20] now they're doing it with soldiers and
[01:53:21] they're going to do it with police
[01:53:22] officers. And I mean police officers
[01:53:24] experience more PTSD. Like I I have a
[01:53:26] good friend who was a cop in Austin and
[01:53:28] he said and he was also in the military
[01:53:30] and he said what I saw in the military
[01:53:32] was nothing compared to what I saw as a
[01:53:34] police officer. Really? He goes, "I was
[01:53:36] seeing death and violence on a on a
[01:53:38] daily basis." He goes, "When you're
[01:53:40] deployed," he goes, "Yeah, you're you're
[01:53:42] going to see some horrible but
[01:53:43] you're going to see some horrible
[01:53:44] mixed in, you know, over a course of
[01:53:46] time where, you know, you go out and
[01:53:49] things go live." goes like every day.
[01:53:52] >> Every day you're going directly to
[01:53:53] somebody who's having the worst moment
[01:53:54] of their life.
[01:53:55] >> And every day you're pulling someone
[01:53:56] over and they might shoot you. Like you
[01:53:58] have no idea. You're you're pulling up
[01:53:59] to uh tinted windows. You don't know
[01:54:02] what the is going on. You're
[01:54:03] running the plate. The the license is
[01:54:05] expired. You have no idea who's who's in
[01:54:07] the car. You don't you don't know
[01:54:09] anything. And you've seen all the
[01:54:11] videos. We've all seen videos of cops
[01:54:12] getting shot down like when they're
[01:54:14] pulling over a car. We've all seen it.
[01:54:15] And so these guys are living with this
[01:54:17] PTSD all the time. And then they
[01:54:20] have to live in real life. They they're
[01:54:21] supposed to go home and they're supposed
[01:54:23] to just be a normal dad and a normal
[01:54:25] neighbor. And their head is just
[01:54:28] a hurricane of chaos.
[01:54:30] >> And I gain has been very beneficial for
[01:54:32] those people to just just sort of come
[01:54:35] down and and try to find the root of all
[01:54:38] this stuff and and get them off pills
[01:54:40] and and get them on the straight.
[01:54:42] >> That's great.
[01:54:42] >> Wow.
[01:54:43] >> Oh, it's amazing. I don't know why we
[01:54:44] got on the mushrooms. Oh, I because uh
[01:54:48] during the Trump during the presidential
[01:54:51] elections, he he started spreading these
[01:54:53] rumors and it's in the the documentary
[01:54:56] uh I what is it that documentary? Is it
[01:54:58] Fear and Loathing?
[01:55:00] >> Gonzo. Gonzo. That's right. In that
[01:55:02] documentary, Gonzo, he talks about it.
[01:55:04] So, he's getting interviewed by Dick
[01:55:05] Cavitt and he goes [laughter] he goes,
[01:55:06] "Yeah." He goes, "There was a a rumor
[01:55:08] running around that uh Ed Musky was on
[01:55:10] Ibagain and I I knew about it because uh
[01:55:13] I started that rumor. [laughter]
[01:55:17] But he made I sold it to him.
[01:55:19] >> So the guy completely cracked. So like
[01:55:21] this guy was like a frontr runner for
[01:55:23] the president and he completely
[01:55:25] cracked because everybody thought that
[01:55:27] he was on drugs cuz H Conter Thompson
[01:55:29] was just running around like saying
[01:55:30] there's these Brazilian witch doctors
[01:55:32] who are coming in to treat this guy.
[01:55:34] It's crazy
[01:55:35] >> That's [laughter] great.
[01:55:37] >> They were like and Hunter would know.
[01:55:39] >> Yeah. Yeah. But it's crazy that he chose
[01:55:41] Ibgainane, too, because Ibgainane is
[01:55:43] like it's not a recreational drug and
[01:55:46] it's not a drug of addiction. It's a
[01:55:47] literally a drug that stops addiction.
[01:55:49] >> But that he was the guy that would have
[01:55:50] the full c the whole book's full of
[01:55:52] these esoteric drugs you never
[01:55:54] heard of that you mentioned really
[01:55:55] casual way like four of us stopped to
[01:55:57] get ibeine at the one gas station that
[01:55:59] sold between [laughter] needles and
[01:56:01] nothing.
[01:56:02] >> Yeah, sure. No, of course you did.
[01:56:04] >> But it it does help people that have uh
[01:56:06] brain damage as well. It's it's supposed
[01:56:08] to like cause some sort of neuro
[01:56:10] >> regeneration. Yeah. Yeah.
[01:56:13] >> There's stuff out there that can help
[01:56:14] people, but uh a large percentage of
[01:56:17] these fighters are silently suffering
[01:56:19] and we don't ever hear about it.
[01:56:21] >> They say like it's supposed to be that
[01:56:22] it's that like the argument is is
[01:56:24] because it's you know they're not using
[01:56:26] a glove like that football supposed to
[01:56:27] be wor I mean wasn't that the sort of
[01:56:29] rationale that like you were going to
[01:56:31] have less impact in boxing because the
[01:56:33] the boxing gloves? No, but it's remember
[01:56:35] it's all it's like the subconcussive
[01:56:37] blows. It's like the it's not
[01:56:39] necessarily the the the one shot
[01:56:40] knocking you out as much as the repeated
[01:56:43] >> kind of like small like little bit of
[01:56:46] brain bleed.
[01:56:46] >> I'm sure it's like they're all bad for
[01:56:48] you. You know what I mean? Like a
[01:56:50] version of
[01:56:50] >> knocks to the head are not a thing to be
[01:56:52] avoided. Yeah.
[01:56:54] >> Well, it's also what you take in
[01:56:55] training, too. We're only considering
[01:56:56] what happens during a fight. If a guy
[01:56:58] has 40 50 MMA fights, that's 40.
[01:57:01] >> How many rounds does he have right in
[01:57:02] the gym? Yeah. Oh, training camp is
[01:57:04] brutal. And depending upon how
[01:57:07] intelligent your camp is. Like some
[01:57:09] people are really smart and they'll spar
[01:57:11] where they're not hitting each other
[01:57:13] hard and then maybe one day of the week
[01:57:14] they go live, but you do it with
[01:57:16] trusted, you know, they're they're very
[01:57:18] close to you. These are people that you
[01:57:19] care about and love, so they're not
[01:57:21] going to try to hurt you on purpose.
[01:57:22] >> But sometimes not. Like sometimes you're
[01:57:24] in a hostile gym and you know, you got
[01:57:26] to spar with people you don't even know.
[01:57:28] They're from other countries. You have a
[01:57:29] big name. They're trying to take you
[01:57:30] out. you know, it's um but the the
[01:57:34] amount of damage these guys take. I
[01:57:35] mean, I don't know if football's better
[01:57:37] or worse. They're all But the thing
[01:57:39] about football is the big impacts are
[01:57:42] way worse because when you've got a 300B
[01:57:46] super athlete that's full tilt
[01:57:49] all the way from across
[01:57:51] >> boom
[01:57:52] running start.
[01:57:53] >> Yeah. you're getting hit by a truck
[01:57:55] >> and that but that doesn't it's it's not
[01:57:59] targeted necessarily at your head. So
[01:58:02] it's like what what is better and what
[01:58:03] is worse. You know, boxing's bad. You
[01:58:05] know, it's like
[01:58:06] >> you have less options. MMA is slightly
[01:58:08] better because if especially if you're a
[01:58:10] grappler, you can take guys down and you
[01:58:12] can beat them up on the ground, but it's
[01:58:15] ultimately
[01:58:17] >> you're paying a price make a
[01:58:18] living for sure. But for that glory, for
[01:58:21] that one moment when they win and the
[01:58:23] 16,000 people are on their feet
[01:58:25] screaming, there's probably no drug like
[01:58:28] that that could ever reproduce it. And
[01:58:29] those guys chase that high for their
[01:58:31] entire life and then after it's over,
[01:58:33] they, you know, they feel oddly
[01:58:35] detached,
[01:58:36] >> right?
[01:58:36] >> And nothing ever rises to that level
[01:58:38] again,
[01:58:38] >> right? You can make films until you're a
[01:58:40] hundred years old. You know, you can
[01:58:42] make great films forever. You can do the
[01:58:44] thing that you love forever. They have a
[01:58:46] little window, a little window of
[01:58:48] greatness. really tough thing about
[01:58:49] being an athlete like I
[01:58:50] >> we were talking to Pete Sampress that
[01:58:51] time we met Sam years ago and he was
[01:58:54] like we were probably I don't know how
[01:58:55] we were 30 he was 32 or something like
[01:58:57] that
[01:58:58] >> and he was kind of we were like oh my
[01:58:59] god you know he had all these
[01:59:01] you know wins and grand slams and he he
[01:59:03] had a kind of vaguely like yeah he was
[01:59:05] like hey you guys look I I'm about to
[01:59:06] retire it's I'm finished and we're you
[01:59:09] know young guys were you know
[01:59:11] >> just getting started you know what I
[01:59:13] mean like we're also the thing is you
[01:59:15] get better
[01:59:16] >> at your job the more you do it Yeah. You
[01:59:18] know, so it's that thing with the
[01:59:19] athlete. I was having this conversation
[01:59:21] the other day. It's like you have all
[01:59:23] the physical skills at the beginning,
[01:59:25] but you become a better, you know,
[01:59:27] better at your sport.
[01:59:28] >> Yeah.
[01:59:28] >> You know, as your skills are declining
[01:59:31] and
[01:59:31] >> the body just doesn't want to do it
[01:59:33] anymore.
[01:59:33] >> And you've got to just comp become Greg
[01:59:36] Maddox, you know, and compensate with
[01:59:38] all the tricks and location and but like
[01:59:40] and that's why that drama of like the
[01:59:42] aging athlete is so powerful. still have
[01:59:45] it. It's like all do we still have it in
[01:59:47] me? Can I still do it? How long, you
[01:59:50] know, is what I've learned enough to
[01:59:53] compensate for what I've lost? You know,
[01:59:55] >> well, there's an interesting story about
[01:59:56] Vtor Belelffort. So, Vtor Belelffort was
[02:00:00] he won the UFC heavyweight tournament
[02:00:01] when he was 19 years old. That was like
[02:00:03] the first event I ever worked at, 1997.
[02:00:06] I mean, he was like one of the all-time
[02:00:08] greats for sure. But as he was getting
[02:00:10] into his 30s, he was starting to
[02:00:12] decline. Then the UFC allowed fighters
[02:00:15] to use testosterone replacement therapy
[02:00:18] and boy did he use it. Okay,
[02:00:20] [laughter] I don't know what his levels
[02:00:22] were, but they were like superhuman
[02:00:24] levels. And there was a moment in time
[02:00:27] for a few years where they allowed him
[02:00:29] to use testosterone therapy and people
[02:00:30] refer to it as the TRT Vtor years
[02:00:33] because he was terrifying
[02:00:35] because he has the mind of a veteran.
[02:00:38] Incredible amount of experience. But now
[02:00:40] his body is moving like a 25-year-old.
[02:00:43] And so he was just annihilating people
[02:00:46] just lighting people on fire.
[02:00:48] >> So they're not allowed to use
[02:00:49] testosterone or
[02:00:50] >> No, they can't use anything.
[02:00:51] >> Um,
[02:00:52] >> no.
[02:00:52] >> No. How about peptides? Can they use
[02:00:54] peptides? Nope. Nope. Not even peptides.
[02:00:55] They're trying to take that and and
[02:00:58] reform that. But there's a lot of
[02:01:00] ignorance about peptides, what they
[02:01:02] actually do. I mean, all it's allowing
[02:01:03] you to do soft tissue injuries, heal
[02:01:05] quicker, and optimize your body's
[02:01:07] ability to produce hormones. So, instead
[02:01:08] of adding exogenous hormones, you're
[02:01:11] allowing your body to produce them more
[02:01:13] naturally, and it'll it just makes you
[02:01:15] more healthy. for a very unhealthy job
[02:01:18] and where you're, you know, you're
[02:01:19] getting hurt all the time. It's it's
[02:01:21] going to be better for the sport, better
[02:01:23] for the athletes to allow them to all
[02:01:24] use it. And it's also there's no
[02:01:26] long-term damage that's going to do like
[02:01:28] steroids where it shuts down your
[02:01:29] endocrine system.
[02:01:31] >> So, I hope they reform it. But the idea
[02:01:33] was that there's so many
[02:01:35] loopholes and so many people cheat. Big
[02:01:37] camps used to hire scientists. So they
[02:01:40] had a scientist on staff that was not
[02:01:44] only
[02:01:45] >> he do.
[02:01:46] >> Yeah. Exactly. Not only procuring stuff
[02:01:48] that that would slip by the test because
[02:01:50] there's like you know the Balco stuff
[02:01:52] with Barry Bond clear
[02:01:54] >> there. There's there's stuff probably
[02:01:55] right now that people are using that's
[02:01:57] slipping through and there's a lot of
[02:01:59] experts that have like one of the things
[02:02:01] is animal derived testosterone. So
[02:02:04] testosterone one of the they do they use
[02:02:06] a carbon isotope test. I think I believe
[02:02:08] that's how they use to figure out where
[02:02:10] the testosterone came from. So if your
[02:02:13] testosterone is like at a very high
[02:02:15] level, they test all your other ratios.
[02:02:17] They go, "Well, no, it all seems likely.
[02:02:19] He's just he's an outlier. He just has
[02:02:21] naturally high testosterone." But
[02:02:23] testosterone that you get from like
[02:02:26] synthetic testosterone is derived from a
[02:02:28] wild yam,
[02:02:30] >> believe it or not. Yes. Yeah. It's not
[02:02:32] It's not animal derived testosterone. So
[02:02:34] the composite of it varies when they run
[02:02:36] the tests on it and they can determine
[02:02:38] >> they can determine that it's a yam based
[02:02:39] testosterone
[02:02:40] >> it's exogenous not indogenous
[02:02:41] >> yam they're fighting it's not heavy
[02:02:43] [laughter]
[02:02:43] >> but if they could figure out a way to ex
[02:02:45] and there's a lot of proof of concept of
[02:02:47] this can they figure out a way to
[02:02:48] extract testosterone from animal sources
[02:02:50] >> bold testosterone
[02:02:51] >> something like that well toine that's
[02:02:53] they used to inject Hitler with torine
[02:02:56] >> you know Hitler was like a
[02:02:57] guinea pig for this one doctor who tried
[02:02:59] a bunch of on him and one of the
[02:03:01] things they did was like inject him with
[02:03:03] bull testicles and stuff. They try to
[02:03:04] keep him viral.
[02:03:06] Yeah. But but there probably are
[02:03:09] athletes right now that are using some
[02:03:11] that they haven't figured out yet.
[02:03:13] So to give them any loopholes at all,
[02:03:15] they're like, "No, no, no
[02:03:16] loopholes. No IVs, no nothing. I
[02:03:20] vitamins and
[02:03:21] >> Right." But the problem with IVs is you
[02:03:22] can mask testosterone and and and mask
[02:03:26] steroids by overflooding the body with
[02:03:28] liquids. So if you overflow so then when
[02:03:32] you
[02:03:32] >> So the ratio is high because like you
[02:03:33] add more water it's you would just fill
[02:03:36] them up with saline and then when they
[02:03:39] go to piss like nope clean look at the
[02:03:41] ratio it's
[02:03:43] >> cuz it's like so much water is being
[02:03:44] processed through the body that it
[02:03:46] doesn't have time to show the
[02:03:47] testosterone. So there's a way to mask
[02:03:48] it especially with like things that you
[02:03:50] would add to the IV. Um, so there's no
[02:03:53] you can't do it's only food and approved
[02:03:56] supplements through like really high
[02:03:58] level labs like Thor, like Thorn
[02:04:00] supplements where it's third party
[02:04:02] tested.
[02:04:03] >> So they don't they can't do anything.
[02:04:04] But for a while they let him do it and
[02:04:07] uh those TRT VOR days are my favorite
[02:04:09] fights to watch. [laughter]
[02:04:11] >> Did they stop doing fighting because
[02:04:13] they thought it was like advantaging
[02:04:14] certain people or they happened
[02:04:16] that they're like this is up or
[02:04:17] was
[02:04:17] >> Well, they look look at the difference.
[02:04:19] That's TRT Vtor on the left and that's
[02:04:20] him on the right when they made him get
[02:04:22] off of it.
[02:04:23] >> Look at the difference.
[02:04:24] >> Jesus.
[02:04:24] >> I mean, that's stunning. On the
[02:04:26] left though, dude, that was
[02:04:28] terrifying. When Luke Rockol fought him,
[02:04:31] he told me, he goes, "Dude, when I stood
[02:04:33] next to him at the weigh-ins, he
[02:04:34] had muscles on his teeth."
[02:04:36] >> He goes, "This dude was so
[02:04:37] jacked. He was so scared." I was like,
[02:04:39] "What the is he on?"
[02:04:41] >> He goes, "He knew he was on something."
[02:04:43] It's just It's cheating. It really is
[02:04:46] because you can jack your levels way
[02:04:48] above a normal human beings because
[02:04:51] that's what a lot of guys there was a
[02:04:52] few fighters that were pulled from cards
[02:04:55] because like say if a really high levels
[02:04:57] like 1100 they were testing like 18900
[02:05:00] they were like people that have never
[02:05:02] lived before
[02:05:03] >> they were like a science project.
[02:05:05] >> They had different species
[02:05:06] >> and they were most insane confidence cuz
[02:05:10] they were essentially like a raging
[02:05:11] gorilla. They were just insanely
[02:05:13] confident and just it's just so fired up
[02:05:16] like they couldn't wait to smash
[02:05:17] somebody because they were just
[02:05:19] maniacal. They're a berserker, you know?
[02:05:21] So you it's not a person anymore. Now
[02:05:24] now you're a science project. It's not,
[02:05:26] you know, there are rare outliers who
[02:05:28] like Tyson when he was in his prime.
[02:05:30] It's rare physical specimens and like
[02:05:31] that's part of the game, but that's God,
[02:05:34] you know, that's nature. This is not,
[02:05:36] you know, Balco Labs. And so they won't
[02:05:38] allow him to do anything anymore. And
[02:05:40] that's why it's cuz too many and VTOR
[02:05:42] was one of the guys that tested like way
[02:05:43] over the line and then they just decided
[02:05:46] >> like but that's what they're going to
[02:05:48] do. If you say
[02:05:49] >> if you say it's legal, they're just
[02:05:50] going to take as much as good more is
[02:05:52] better. And you know
[02:05:53] >> Yeah. If you say you did one cc a week,
[02:05:55] they're like I heard five. I heard five
[02:05:56] cc's. And these guys are just training
[02:05:58] five times a day and they never get
[02:06:00] tired and they recover like that. So and
[02:06:03] they they never have to worry about soft
[02:06:04] tissue injuries cuz they they heal like
[02:06:06] you're a six-year-old, you know?
[02:06:08] And you just your body just like
[02:06:09] [laughter]
[02:06:10] Wolverine.
[02:06:12] >> Oh yeah, man. Well, that's the thing
[02:06:13] about peptides, too. The Wolverine
[02:06:15] stack. BP157 and TB500. I don't know if
[02:06:18] you ever get injured. If you ever get
[02:06:19] injured, get immediately on BP157 and
[02:06:22] TB500.
[02:06:23] >> I didn't hear about TB500, which what's
[02:06:25] that one?
[02:06:25] >> Thyin Beta 500. It's in conjunction with
[02:06:28] BPC 157. It is a phenomenal
[02:06:31] stack and just really helps injuries.
[02:06:33] >> I didn't know they called it the
[02:06:34] Wolverine stack.
[02:06:35] >> That's what they call it, the Wolverine
[02:06:36] stack. Yeah, cuz you heal
[02:06:37] incredibly well. Like you like it
[02:06:39] quickly. I was talking to a pro football
[02:06:40] player pulled his hamstring. He's like,
[02:06:42] "Dude, I I shot that right into my
[02:06:43] hamstring for two weeks and I was right
[02:06:45] back on the field." I was like, "That's
[02:06:47] nuts."
[02:06:48] >> I go, "What is a normal rehab?" He goes,
[02:06:49] "Three months."
[02:06:50] >> He goes, "In two weeks I was back on the
[02:06:52] field." I go, "What the f?" He goes, "I
[02:06:53] don't know how bad the injury was." He
[02:06:55] goes, "But to me it's like I
[02:06:57] pulled my hamstring. I'm now for
[02:06:59] x amount of days." He goes, "In two
[02:07:01] weeks later, I was playing full tilt."
[02:07:02] >> Wow.
[02:07:03] >> I'm like, that's nuts. and going right
[02:07:04] into the area of the injury.
[02:07:06] >> Right into it. Some people think you
[02:07:08] don't have to do that. They think it's,
[02:07:09] you know, systemic. So, you just like
[02:07:10] stick it in your fat on your on your
[02:07:12] side. But he's like, "No." And most
[02:07:14] athletes will tell you the best benefit
[02:07:16] is local. Shoot it locally into the area
[02:07:19] and it just has
[02:07:20] >> like uh cortisone or whatever. Where is
[02:07:22] it? What is the
[02:07:23] >> cortisone? But cortisone just mass
[02:07:25] >> numbs it or whatever. Yeah.
[02:07:26] >> Not only that, it it has a tendency if
[02:07:29] you do it too many times to weaken
[02:07:30] tendons.
[02:07:31] >> Yeah.
[02:07:32] >> Yeah. And so it could actually
[02:07:33] exacerbate the problem because it takes
[02:07:35] away the pain.
[02:07:35] >> Measure, right?
[02:07:36] >> Yeah. It takes away the pain. But
[02:07:38] >> I mean, you know, then there's the
[02:07:40] enhanced games that are coming out in
[02:07:42] Vegas this year where they're like,
[02:07:43] >> I know my my friend had that idea a long
[02:07:44] time ago. He was like, you should just
[02:07:46] do the the the the drug Olympics for
[02:07:48] cash. He goes, "Do it in Vegas for
[02:07:50] cash." And then then the enhanced games
[02:07:52] came. I sent him a tell. I was like,
[02:07:54] "They're doing it." [snorts]
[02:07:55] >> The game
[02:07:56] >> and it's just like
[02:07:57] >> I'm down. I love Let's see what a human
[02:07:59] being can do.
[02:08:00] >> I That's what I think. I mean, look,
[02:08:02] when Barry Bonds and, you know, Sammy
[02:08:04] Sosa and those guys were cracking out
[02:08:05] home runs, it was one of the most
[02:08:07] exciting times in baseball.
[02:08:10] They didn't do anything. They knew it
[02:08:11] wasn't a mystery to anybody. But
[02:08:13] Avery's tuning in. The Bash Brothers
[02:08:16] baseball on a strike, you know? They
[02:08:17] almost destroyed that league and
[02:08:19] then people started watching home runs
[02:08:22] and everyone and then Bonds is like,
[02:08:23] "Well,
[02:08:24] >> these two guys are hitting this
[02:08:26] many home runs. I'm the best player in
[02:08:27] baseball." Which he was. And when he did
[02:08:30] it, it was lights out. Yeah. You know, I
[02:08:31] mean, he had a year where he only swung
[02:08:33] and missed 26 times. 162 games, three
[02:08:37] [laughter] and a half bats a game. Only
[02:08:39] swung and missed 20. I mean, that's
[02:08:41] just,
[02:08:42] >> you know, and yeah, Magguire get like
[02:08:44] just like move his wrist to get the ball
[02:08:47] out of the park and it was like, yeah,
[02:08:48] it was fun to watch. And when people say
[02:08:49] like steroids don't make you a better
[02:08:51] athlete, well, they don't maybe don't
[02:08:52] make you a better athlete, [laughter]
[02:08:54] >> but if you're a Barry, if
[02:08:56] >> you're already an elite athlete, yeah,
[02:08:58] it makes Let Jon Jones do all the juice
[02:09:01] he wants. He'd be fighting until he's 50
[02:09:03] and people up. And you say,
[02:09:05] "John, we we've we really come to our
[02:09:07] senses. Like, this sport's all about
[02:09:08] excitement. Want to give the people what
[02:09:09] they want. Give people let people make
[02:09:11] informed choices based on their own
[02:09:13] discretion."
[02:09:14] >> Oh, it's like,
[02:09:15] >> "Welcome back. Welcome [laughter] back."
[02:09:17] Then all a sudden, John looks like Vtor
[02:09:19] in that picture.
[02:09:19] >> He'd be undefeated.
[02:09:21] >> By the way, John beat Vtor when Vtor was
[02:09:22] in his prime. And Vtor caught Jon in a
[02:09:25] full arm bar, totally locked his arm
[02:09:27] out, hyperextended, popped it, went
[02:09:30] backwards. You can see the video of it.
[02:09:32] His elbow is going that way. He wouldn't
[02:09:34] tap and then beat him in the next round
[02:09:36] >> with one arm.
[02:09:37] >> Yep. One arm. His arm was
[02:09:39] for like a year after that.
[02:09:42] >> Yeah.
[02:09:43] >> Yeah.
[02:09:44] >> Give that man some steroids. Let's
[02:09:45] [laughter] see what he can do.
[02:09:46] >> Steroids. Let him be the king of the
[02:09:48] world.
[02:09:49] >> Yeah. The dream team. It's like remember
[02:09:51] the first time the the the pros went to
[02:09:52] the Olympics, whatever the years, won
[02:09:55] every game by 70 points. You know, it
[02:09:57] wasn't close, but it was a hell of a lot
[02:09:58] of fun.
[02:09:59] >> Well, the argument for that made sense
[02:10:00] though because like these other people
[02:10:01] are being compensated in their
[02:10:03] countries.
[02:10:03] >> Oh yeah, I had no problem. And then by
[02:10:05] the way, now it's got more that last
[02:10:06] Olympic championship was that was a
[02:10:08] great game against France. That was
[02:10:10] fabulous. You know, I mean, yeah, they
[02:10:11] they're they're going to wreck some
[02:10:13] smaller countries and stuff, but
[02:10:15] >> okay, that you're playing pros, they're
[02:10:16] playing pros. the whole definition of
[02:10:18] amateurism has gotten a little bit like
[02:10:20] you know
[02:10:20] >> yes it's it's it's people find like a
[02:10:23] convenient definition of it according to
[02:10:25] what's there like you see in college
[02:10:26] sports is changing and stuff like look I
[02:10:28] got no problem if you're going to apply
[02:10:29] the rules evenly but sometimes when it
[02:10:31] feels like it's just an excuse to like
[02:10:32] for the NCAA to make a billion dollars
[02:10:34] off the TV deal like no no you guys
[02:10:36] you're getting you're getting education
[02:10:38] >> it's like a little bit like yeah
[02:10:39] education you guys making a lot of money
[02:10:41] because people want to see Nebraska play
[02:10:44] >> it's exploitation
[02:10:46] >> yeah and I'm glad they've changed that
[02:10:47] with college sports because these guys
[02:10:48] are the reason why you're filling up the
[02:10:50] seats and they they deserve that money
[02:10:52] >> and not every one of them is going to be
[02:10:53] in the NFL, right?
[02:10:54] >> You know what I mean? Some of them
[02:10:55] that's their window to make that
[02:10:56] money. You know what I mean? Like it's
[02:10:58] hard in the NFL.
[02:11:00] >> And the risk of catastrophic injury is
[02:11:02] always there
[02:11:02] >> is constant constant. Yeah.
[02:11:04] >> And and and the the the metrics for it's
[02:11:07] like what is it a two two and a half
[02:11:08] year career or something
[02:11:11] >> depending on your position. But I mean
[02:11:13] it's it's such a
[02:11:14] >> that seems just fair and obvious. So you
[02:11:16] pay a kid to flip a cheeseburger out of
[02:11:17] college, but not to like, you know, come
[02:11:19] on.
[02:11:20] >> Well, that's the great thing about doing
[02:11:21] something where you're not relying on
[02:11:23] your body like acting.
[02:11:25] >> You can you can kind of do it forever,
[02:11:27] you know?
[02:11:27] >> Yeah. Keep going till you lose it, you
[02:11:29] know what I mean? It's really Yeah, it's
[02:11:30] great. And it's got its own competitive
[02:11:32] aspect and it's a lot, you know, but
[02:11:35] >> like, okay, great. If it's if you will
[02:11:37] bet on yourself and then the expectation
[02:11:38] is, well, I got to do something that's
[02:11:41] interesting enough that people want to
[02:11:42] watch it. Well, that's the proposition
[02:11:43] anyway. How do you guys decide like on
[02:11:45] projects that you you choose? Like I'm
[02:11:48] sure you have so many options now. Like
[02:11:50] what what makes you say this is what I'm
[02:11:53] going to spend the next six months
[02:11:54] doing?
[02:11:54] >> It's really I mean there are a bunch of
[02:11:56] different factors like like the director
[02:11:58] is being the most important one. But but
[02:12:01] if you read a script and and like we've
[02:12:03] read so many thousands and thousands of
[02:12:05] scripts and written so many scripts and
[02:12:08] worked on so many movies that that if if
[02:12:11] we read something and it and it it's
[02:12:13] that thing we were talking about
[02:12:14] earlier, you know, you get that get that
[02:12:17] kind of emotional something happens when
[02:12:19] you read it. you go, "Okay, well," then
[02:12:21] you then you pay attention to it, maybe
[02:12:23] read it again, go, "Wait a minute." You
[02:12:25] know, if it if it if it moves you in
[02:12:26] that in that way, then, you know,
[02:12:28] ultimately the big decision is saying
[02:12:30] yes because
[02:12:31] >> because you're going to spend
[02:12:33] >> Yeah. the last point over which you have
[02:12:35] >> total control, right?
[02:12:36] >> You know, and then you're in.
[02:12:37] >> Then you're in and and you're and you're
[02:12:40] in whether it's good or bad. I mean,
[02:12:42] I've been on those movies where I knew a
[02:12:44] month into a six-month shoot that like
[02:12:47] this is not going to work. [laughter]
[02:12:49] And that that is that is the
[02:12:52] >> it's just the worst.
[02:12:53] >> It is I I I came to think of that. It
[02:12:56] happened to me.
[02:12:56] >> They're going to shoot us all when it
[02:12:57] comes out.
[02:12:58] >> Yeah. Okay. [laughter]
[02:12:58] >> It's like it's all bad.
[02:12:59] >> Go to work. You know,
[02:13:00] >> it's like it's it's going to be it's
[02:13:02] going to be 80 16 hour days in a row and
[02:13:05] then uh a a post-production period
[02:13:08] that's going to be pretty fraught and
[02:13:09] then it's going to come out and we're
[02:13:10] going to get crushed
[02:13:11] >> and then you're going to have to sell
[02:13:12] it. You're going to have to walk the
[02:13:14] plank and sit down with access.
[02:13:17] >> You know what I mean? like so saw the
[02:13:20] movie. How important is that stuff still
[02:13:23] today? Like the press stuff, is that
[02:13:25] still important?
[02:13:26] >> It is. I don't know to what degree each
[02:13:29] specific thing is. I mean,
[02:13:30] >> it's kind of ironic because we were
[02:13:31] talking about coming on this show today
[02:13:33] and we were saying I was like doing this
[02:13:35] show more meaningful in than the rest of
[02:13:37] the we do in aggregate to promote
[02:13:39] this movie. Like we spent this whole
[02:13:41] week in New York doing, you know, I
[02:13:43] don't know how many interviews, you
[02:13:44] know, the the quick ones with all the
[02:13:45] outlet,
[02:13:45] >> five minute interviews, all the the the
[02:13:48] evening shows, the day shows,
[02:13:50] >> all that stuff and and this just given
[02:13:53] how many people listen to the show will
[02:13:56] be more meaningful. We think I mean
[02:13:58] that's our we were speculating but
[02:14:00] >> his historically right if you look at it
[02:14:02] that's it because they've changed to
[02:14:03] like all of it feels kind of produced
[02:14:06] and forced and advertised and and people
[02:14:08] have become resistant to anything that
[02:14:10] feels kind of like a gimmick and a
[02:14:11] shtick and you go on and you do your
[02:14:12] song and dance and they say the thing it
[02:14:13] looks great and you and nobody cares
[02:14:15] like they're looking to go either
[02:14:17] because somebody they know says it's
[02:14:18] interesting or somebody that they is
[02:14:20] trusted and a trusted person is in like
[02:14:22] your like you say your feed right and
[02:14:24] it's your friend or your your cousin or
[02:14:26] or they affix that to somebody which has
[02:14:29] become a more rare thing like who's a
[02:14:32] like a legitimate neutral arbiter,
[02:14:34] right? Who I can't predict what they're
[02:14:36] going to say before I go there. There
[02:14:38] are few of those fewer and fewer of
[02:14:40] those people in the world even those are
[02:14:42] proliferation of more and more voices
[02:14:45] and I it's kind of paradoxical like the
[02:14:48] form of entertainment is getting shorter
[02:14:50] and shorter and shorter. So you're like
[02:14:51] a 7-second, you know, we had an
[02:14:53] advertising company. We we do most of
[02:14:55] the spots that we release like 15-second
[02:14:56] spots, six-second spots for social, the
[02:14:59] ones most people see. And then there's
[02:15:01] this one form, which is like long form
[02:15:04] discussions that are whatever two hours
[02:15:07] long. And the amazing to me is, you
[02:15:10] know, in a world where it seems like you
[02:15:11] can't get people to pay attention for
[02:15:12] more than, you know, a few seconds,
[02:15:15] there's a kind of a hunger for that. So
[02:15:16] there's like this form and that's why
[02:15:18] you see these are getting more popular.
[02:15:19] obviously have this massive audience and
[02:15:22] it's and it it's kind of flying in the
[02:15:23] face of the whole other trend and I
[02:15:26] think and I don't know that it probably
[02:15:29] has something to do with like who do I
[02:15:31] think is authentic and am I actually
[02:15:33] going to willing to extend my two hours
[02:15:36] of my time to sit there and listen
[02:15:38] through and and that an argument that
[02:15:40] people probably do appreciate and
[02:15:42] understand conversations that have
[02:15:44] context and nuance and where there's
[02:15:46] like a back and forth. They're just much
[02:15:48] more selective about who they're willing
[02:15:50] to kind of
[02:15:52] give that sort of voice to in their
[02:15:55] life.
[02:15:55] >> It's also the voice of the public, too,
[02:15:57] because when people start talking about
[02:15:58] things online and things go viral online
[02:16:01] and people just start like saying how
[02:16:03] great they love the film or how great
[02:16:05] this album is or something like that, it
[02:16:07] just takes off organically now.
[02:16:09] >> Yeah. And that has more more weight than
[02:16:10] anything. If you feel like somebody else
[02:16:12] who obviously has no dog in the fight is
[02:16:15] going, "Hey, this is great. You should
[02:16:16] see I'm the same thing. If I hear
[02:16:18] somebody tell me like, you know, who I
[02:16:20] respect, hey, you got to see that thing,
[02:16:21] that means more to me than anything,
[02:16:23] right? Because I believe that. And so if
[02:16:25] the closer you can get to that, which is
[02:16:27] why that I think the act of a like
[02:16:29] telling the same, you know, like telling
[02:16:32] the same like story about you should go
[02:16:34] see the movie to a bunch of people with
[02:16:36] a certain like limited reach, it's just
[02:16:38] it's just not that efficient. But you
[02:16:40] have to because it's like well we sat
[02:16:42] down with our own Trisha Zanaka and
[02:16:44] talked about the mo you know and you
[02:16:46] kind of do that ostensibly because it
[02:16:48] means a little bit more in that in that
[02:16:50] market. But I think ultimately it's it's
[02:16:53] like more and more people see realize
[02:16:55] they're being sold to see through the
[02:16:57] act and the sort of of
[02:16:59] it. They recognize that you know you go
[02:17:01] out and sell every movie. You know what
[02:17:03] I mean? The good and the bad. And then
[02:17:04] we got to decide well which one and and
[02:17:06] who can you count on? Well, it's mostly
[02:17:07] going to be that like the word of mouth,
[02:17:09] your friend, and and now you can see
[02:17:11] that person in your media experience,
[02:17:13] you know.
[02:17:13] >> Yeah. And I think it's also we know that
[02:17:17] when you're sitting down with extra or
[02:17:19] these like that's just their job to sit
[02:17:21] down with people, they're not doing it
[02:17:22] because they want to, right?
[02:17:23] >> You know, it's like they got told go
[02:17:26] talk to that person.
[02:17:27] >> And we got told go talk to them. So, we
[02:17:30] go do the ritual and they say the thing
[02:17:32] they say and we say the thing we say
[02:17:34] >> and everyone goes home and says we did
[02:17:36] our job.
[02:17:36] >> That's the benefit of an independent
[02:17:38] podcast is that like like with me I
[02:17:40] don't talk to anybody I don't want to
[02:17:42] talk to. It's just like I
[02:17:42] [clears throat] I I literally do the
[02:17:44] whole thing on my phone. I go oh yeah
[02:17:46] that sounds cool and that's it.
[02:17:48] >> But like that I think means a lot at
[02:17:50] least this person is making this choice
[02:17:51] and I've listened to it a bunch and I I
[02:17:53] actually find myself agreeing with it a
[02:17:55] lot of the time. I'm so hard right I'll
[02:17:56] give it a shot that you know it's
[02:17:58] exactly
[02:17:58] >> I think also like this format like at
[02:18:01] least I know why it why I started
[02:18:03] listening to podcasts was because uh in
[02:18:06] in the world like the the divisive kind
[02:18:09] the way everybody was talking these
[02:18:10] sound bites and all this and and
[02:18:12] and it was just like the ability to just
[02:18:15] listen to human beings talk often who
[02:18:19] who had different points of view but
[02:18:21] like had a civil conversation
[02:18:23] >> Yeah. was like was such a welcome thing,
[02:18:26] you know, given the given the kind of
[02:18:28] the hysterical
[02:18:29] kind of, you know, uh, frenzy of of of
[02:18:33] of divisiveness that's kind of it just
[02:18:35] feels it's just like,
[02:18:37] >> you know, the it's like I if I open my
[02:18:40] phone and look at the news, I like
[02:18:42] >> It's like, put it down. It's just it's
[02:18:44] it's like uh I feel my cortisol level go
[02:18:46] up. and to actually hear people be
[02:18:49] listen to people I know I don't agree
[02:18:50] with but listen to them and just and
[02:18:52] just think about it. You know what I
[02:18:55] mean? I mean approach life with a little
[02:18:56] bit of humility.
[02:18:58] >> Not hold on to what you believe
[02:18:59] obviously but but but keep listening.
[02:19:03] >> It's also there's not a lot of
[02:19:04] opportunities in the real world to have
[02:19:06] long conversations with people. So
[02:19:08] people are kind of starving for that.
[02:19:10] >> I know. Isn't it funny that this has
[02:19:11] become the shared cultural like we
[02:19:13] listen to that podcast and then actually
[02:19:16] experience that because and also people
[02:19:18] why don't people trust the media? Well,
[02:19:19] because the media doesn't do that
[02:19:21] because they compress it and because the
[02:19:22] truth it's money because actually doing
[02:19:25] that is not with money. it's just
[02:19:26] ratings and the perceived idea that like
[02:19:29] well if you simplify it or you you
[02:19:31] position it one way or that you engender
[02:19:32] outrage um that's simple or just you
[02:19:36] know pure one-sided ideas that are that
[02:19:38] are simple um you know but the news used
[02:19:41] to be the idea was look here's the FCC
[02:19:44] we're going to let these networks
[02:19:45] broadcast their shows and make money on
[02:19:47] it but here's the deal you got to give
[02:19:48] an hour of that and lose money on that
[02:19:51] hour to tell the news and try to tell it
[02:19:52] objectively then it started to be no you
[02:19:54] got to make money for for that hour too.
[02:19:56] And if you're going to make money,
[02:19:57] that's a different incentive than tell
[02:20:00] the truth or reports or any of those
[02:20:02] things. And people try to hybridize
[02:20:04] them, but at the end of the day, you're
[02:20:06] a more successful reporter if more
[02:20:08] people watch you because advertisers pay
[02:20:10] more and then they're doing the same
[02:20:12] thing, looking at their data, you know,
[02:20:14] grand what are people watching, what
[02:20:15] kinds of stories and and I I think this
[02:20:18] is simple answers because you're just
[02:20:19] you're making it into a profit game.
[02:20:21] those incentives are not aligned with
[02:20:23] >> just trying to get down to like even
[02:20:25] reporting basic facts.
[02:20:28] >> Yeah. It's a weird time. It's like we
[02:20:30] have more access to information than
[02:20:31] ever before, but so much of it is just
[02:20:33] horseshit.
[02:20:33] >> Yeah.
[02:20:34] >> You know, it's it's hard to stay
[02:20:37] balanced. Yeah.
[02:20:38] >> And I think that's why it's good to like
[02:20:40] listen to people just talk
[02:20:42] >> and and then you recognize like the
[02:20:43] flaws in their thinking. You feel ego.
[02:20:46] You feel deception. You know,
[02:20:50] >> it's true. people will reveal
[02:20:51] themselves. Like you actually we
[02:20:52] actually don't need that many
[02:20:53] editorialists to be constantly telling
[02:20:55] us what to think and how to think.
[02:20:57] People actually have pretty good
[02:20:58] instincts. You know, if someone's
[02:21:00] bullshitting you eventually, they'll
[02:21:01] kind of hang themselves. Like you said,
[02:21:03] you'll get that vibe. Uh after a while,
[02:21:05] he kind of started repeating his
[02:21:06] sticktick and I kind of he didn't really
[02:21:08] talk about what I was wondering about.
[02:21:10] And you form your own that's like
[02:21:12] forming your own judgment.
[02:21:13] >> Pete Buddhajed actually talked about
[02:21:15] that being dangerous on podcasts. He's
[02:21:17] like, "Because you you go on there and
[02:21:20] you have your points, but you'll get
[02:21:22] revealed over the course of a few
[02:21:24] hours." Like, you can only stick to
[02:21:26] these lines.
[02:21:27] >> Yeah. You get talking points and
[02:21:28] for and then
[02:21:30] >> and then what happens is people just
[02:21:31] like there was an art to like look at
[02:21:33] how great the communicator they stick to
[02:21:34] the message and they do their points. We
[02:21:37] Okay, 30 seconds, 60 seconds. But any
[02:21:39] longer than that, it just starts to look
[02:21:41] like a robot on, you know, and
[02:21:43] like I said, what we need to follow
[02:21:45] through with, you know, I saw you do the
[02:21:47] same hand gesture and the same bit with
[02:21:49] that, but you know,
[02:21:50] >> sometimes you find out they're full of
[02:21:51] just by having them talk about
[02:21:52] other things.
[02:21:54] >> You know, like tell me, do you like
[02:21:55] cooking? You know, like just like and
[02:21:57] then you just see like some concocted
[02:22:00] >> they're thinking what makes me look good
[02:22:01] if about cooking that I should
[02:22:04] >> Well, I tell you what, because Americans
[02:22:06] [laughter]
[02:22:07] exactly it like
[02:22:08] >> do I cook or do I not? What what would I
[02:22:10] >> Does that make me feminine or does it
[02:22:12] make me open to cultural? You It's just
[02:22:14] like,
[02:22:14] >> yeah,
[02:22:15] >> what do you like to cook, man? I don't
[02:22:17] cook. You know,
[02:22:18] >> well, that's the other thing about
[02:22:19] people that are online too much is
[02:22:21] they're so concerned with other people's
[02:22:23] opinions that they don't have enough
[02:22:25] time to formulate their own.
[02:22:28] >> They're just so concerned with how
[02:22:29] people are going to perceive everything
[02:22:31] you say that you're like handcuffed.
[02:22:32] You're like terrified to misspeak.
[02:22:35] >> Right. Right.
[02:22:36] >> I think that in general is a real
[02:22:38] danger. I mean, you we were
[02:22:39] talking the other day, we were saying
[02:22:40] about like one of the ver benefits of
[02:22:43] getting older and and doing this for a
[02:22:45] long time is
[02:22:46] >> you realize like nobody really gives a
[02:22:48] as much about you as you thought.
[02:22:50] You know, you just kind of nobody gives
[02:22:51] a Nobody remembers. You
[02:22:52] >> spend your 20s and 30s thinking like
[02:22:54] this is really important and then you
[02:22:56] realize no one come [laughter]
[02:22:57] off and what's going to be no one
[02:22:58] actually cares. It's not that big a
[02:23:00] deal. Nobody
[02:23:01] >> most people are mostly worrying about
[02:23:02] themselves in their life and they Yeah.
[02:23:04] There's this illusion that they pay a
[02:23:06] passing moment of attention or it's in
[02:23:08] some story or it's like you're
[02:23:10] staring at it because it's about you,
[02:23:12] right? You know, you know that you said
[02:23:13] that about me. Nobody else really
[02:23:15] >> Nobody cares.
[02:23:16] >> And if they do, they're usually
[02:23:18] up. Like something's wrong. Why
[02:23:20] concentrate on this other person's life?
[02:23:22] >> You're probably trying to ignore your
[02:23:23] own right?
[02:23:24] >> Yeah.
[02:23:25] >> Well, listen, man. Your movie is
[02:23:27] awesome. Uh I've loved so much of your
[02:23:29] your films over the years, so it's been
[02:23:31] really cool to be able to have you guys
[02:23:32] in here and talk about this. It's been
[02:23:34] great.
[02:23:34] >> Thanks for having us.
[02:23:35] >> Two very normal, nice movie stars.
[02:23:38] [laughter]
[02:23:39] >> You guys are cool as
[02:23:40] >> Give us a couple more hours.
[02:23:41] >> Yeah, exactly.
[02:23:43] >> I enjoyed it. And I really enjoyed the
[02:23:44] rip. It's great. And uh
[02:23:46] everybody go see it. It's great. I loved
[02:23:48] it. Thank you. Thanks for being here.
[02:23:50] All right. Pleasure.
[02:23:51] >> Bye, everybody.
[02:23:59] [music]