two one boom and we're live first of all
cheers gentlemen let's have a little
toast relax bob thank you very much for
doing this i really appreciate it i
understand
that you've told this story many many
times you've been grilled many many
times and it's very stressful for you so
i really really appreciate your time
for people who don't know the story
there is a documentary
jeremy corbell has a documentary out
right now it's called bob lazar area 51
and ufos and flying saucers and flying
saucers bombs are air 51 and flying okay
um
i first heard your story decades ago
i've i told you last night we went out
to dinner i've seen pretty much every
interview you've ever given i've
followed the story incredibly closely
but for people who don't know the story
let's give them the bullet points you
used to work
at area 51 in area 51 you got you you
went like
well you know we want to be accurate
okay area s4 s4 okay it's about 15 miles
south of area 51. okay
um
you
worked
in
what would you how would you describe it
i i guess
within the area 51 compound you can call
that a subset of area 51.
and you got that job before that you
were working
before that i had worked at los alamos
right national labs in new mexico and
you were involved in what kind of work
nuclear weapon development physics i
mean that's they do everything there so
how do they approach you
to say hey bob once you come on out to
the nevada desert
well the way this went down was
um
at that time it was 1982
i
had put
a jet engine in my my honda
and los alamos put it on the front page
of the paper
said you know uh
los alamos man physicist at the lab you
know
built this 200 mile an hour you know on
the jet car that i drove to work every
day
so uh so i was known in los alamos the
guy with the weird car and you know you
could hear it from you know a mile away
anyway
the day that came out on the front page
of the paper
was the day edward teller the father of
the hydrogen bomb was giving
a lecture
down there at the lab
and we didn't have much going on that
day in our group and i asked if i could
go down there
and
i went down there early and ed teller
was outside
leaning on a brick wall there and
reading the front page of the paper now
there's a guy out of history so i
introduced myself hey i'm the guy you're
reading about there and we talked for a
little while and it was cool
uh you know fast forward to years later
i had moved out to las vegas
and had you know left los alamos and
you know went on to other things and i
wanted to get back into the scientific
community yeah i left start other
businesses and
and that sort of thing so i sent resumes
out and one of them went out to ed
teller and referenced our meeting
you know back back in that the day
and uh anyway he remembered me
and
gave me a reference somebody to contact
at egng
and that's pretty much how it started
so
you get a phone call or a letter like
what do you get
well i got a
what did i get i got a letter initially
and um went down for an interview
probably a couple times and it was down
at eg g special projects which was um
at mccarran airport at that time out in
las vegas and did they give you any sort
of job description of what you were
applying for um they said it was for ed
i can't remember exactly what they did
this was a long time ago but i i think
it was um
advanced propulsion or something like
that something relatively generic and
they said it's in a remote area
um
you know it's gonna be some days on some
days off and um
you know it was kind of a
it was kind of uh not exactly a
full-time job but you might have to be
out there for two weeks at a time and
take two weeks off so it was kind of uh
the work schedule would be kind of
broken up
and did this seem attractive to you or
did it seem weird
no it really wasn't weird because people
that work at the test site anybody
that's familiar with the area up there
um you know working at the nuclear test
site uh or at the tonopod test range
north of there uh that's typically how
things go so you had known about it from
the scientific community because the
area 51 at that time was no they didn't
say anything about area 51. okay so they
just said it was in a you know in a
remote location and you just know it was
up at the test site right so but there
was no mention of area 51 at that time
so they've done
hundreds of nuclear tests in nevada and
nevada that whole area was there's been
there's giant chunks of nevada the
people yeah there's a big piece of
nevada and it's split up into different
areas there's a nuclear test site
there's area 51 there's the tonopod test
range north of that there's little
sub-areas there's areas where they test
chemical weapons and things like that so
it's all broken up as a you know
gigantic test area so take me back to
first day on the job
you accept a job
they take you out there
yeah
it's um
the first day really i didn't really get
to see a whole lot the first day was
essentially just paperwork that's when i
flew into area 51 proper
and i left mccarran airport
and flew what they call the janet
flights
just um
you know a passenger plane from las
vegas to area 51
and it was really just going through
a mountain of paperwork that day
from security clearances to um
god there was
it was like two or three hours of just
solid paperwork and that was that was
really an uneventful first day
when did things get weird
when did you realize that at what point
in time did you say hey
this is not
normal work like this doesn't even seem
like it's from this planet
that i can't tell you what day that
occurred on because so much time has
gone by
the days have kind of fused into one and
i can't separate the days was it a slow
burn or was there a moment of
recognition
well the
the first inkling i had was when i i
came in normal there's this facility
that is at s4
it's in the side of a mountain
and
normally we had pulled in with the bus
and gone around the front through a
normal double door
this time that i went in there were
hangar doors open
i went into the hangar door and in the
hangar door was the disc the flying
saucer that i worked on
i saw it sitting there and we walked by
it had a little american flag stuck on
the side and i thought oh my god this
finally explains all the flying saucer
stories this is just an advanced fighter
and it this is [ __ ] hilarious right
so i went by i slid my hand alongside it
i got reprimanded immediately for
touching the thing
and uh there was a guy an armed guard
that followed us in and just said keep
your eyes at forward and your hands at
your side and just walk in the door so
that was the first time i had seen
anything that was weird
it was some time later that i was
introduced to my um
my lab partner barry
and we had some of the subcomponents of
the craft
in the lab
and barry was very anxious to get a new
lab partner so he was very talkative and
couldn't wait to show me different
things and it was in the demonstration
of the reactor working where it caught
my attention to where
this is technology that doesn't even
exist
so i mean that was the first time i knew
that this is
really something different what was it
what was it what was a
what was it about this reactor that made
you think that it didn't exist
technologically well it was the i
actually have to back up because there
were some briefings that i read it
before that
that
you know certainly gave me the
impression that this was going to be a
weird job but this was the first
hands-on thing
this was a small reactor about the size
of a hemisphere about the size of a
basketball
on a metal plate and when it was running
it produced a gravitational field a
gravitational field of its own now this
is something that we can't do we can't
produce any gravity the only way we get
gravity is from large quantities of mass
but there's no machine we can have that
turns on that makes gravity like
you know you can turn on an
electromagnet and it makes a magnetic
field we can't make a gravitational
field anyway this device was producing
that and barry said
almost like he was bragging go ahead try
and try and touch the sphere and i i
couldn't it would it pushed my hands
away just like two like poles of a
magnet so that was uh so like when you
take two magnets and try to press them
together yeah you have this each other
yeah kind of cushion feeling but you
can't you can't get them together the
closer you put them the more they push
but then you felt that physically with
my hand yeah now there's nothing there's
nothing that does that
and that immediately caught my attention
going wow this is something else what
was your thought like when you felt that
and you knew that there was nothing that
you were aware of that could produce
that connected me to the briefings that
i read
on the the first day at s4 was that uh
you know everything that i had read was
apparently accurate
what were you reading
i read it was kind of an overview
this project
was to back engineer
the alien craft and
specifically it was to try and back
engineer and see if we can duplicate the
technology with available materials
now to do this they split the project
into
you know many different pieces for
several reasons they do this on all
classified projects so uh nobody has the
complete story but uh they
compartmentalize everything now we had
the power and propulsion system so what
the briefings they gave me were like a
one or two page overview of some of the
other projects that were going on you
know on the craft the only reason they
do that is just in case what you're
working on is connected intimately in
some way that we don't know of to one of
the other projects you have to know
there excuse me their existence so
um
you know i but
again everything from metallurgy to
um you know weapon potential the craft
and these were all you know essentially
very short briefings but mine was just
power and propulsion and
it made it very clear that what i read
was accurate
so when you're reading that before you
actually saw the reactor
what were your thoughts on what they
were describing
if you knew that something like that
didn't exist
and they're describing it in the
briefings
what did you think you were going to see
i really i i didn't know at the time i
mean i was reading i thought is this
just some kind of test
um
see if you're crazy well not to see if
i'm crazy to
you know a lot of times they'll take in
real high security
uh
jobs i mean they'll intentionally insert
nonsense into them um whether it's to
confuse the fact or if for someone was
to leak it out
they would carry that information along
and know where it came from so
i
read through the documents but you know
i didn't know if this was you know part
of some kind of test or um
you know or what or was it potentially
realistic i mean i really didn't
consider it being
all that possible as far as being uh
the actual thing that i was going to
work on at the time how did they turn it
on
the the reactor yeah the reactor can be
turned on or turned off in a lot of
different ways um the way barry showed
me at the hemisphere is removed
there's a small tower in the middle when
you put the hemisphere on the reactor
activates
the reactor shuts down it's it's load
sensing so if there's if there's no load
on the reactor at all it shuts down when
there's a load present on it it starts
up again load meaning
you can consider it an electrical load
so
although it doesn't necessarily operate
electrically there's no wiring that
connects any of the sub components
together whatsoever they just have to be
in the immediate vicinity it's uh
it is but the stuff is borderline magic
and that's essentially where we left it
you know when i left the project
so there was no progress made
there was some progress i mean we did
identify at least we think some
processes and
and had a rough idea we think of what
was going on but
i think this is a problem
that they've had for a long time
and um
you know i was replacing somebody
that barry worked with prior to me and i
think there was some horrific accident
that i didn't have a whole lot of
information on but you know barry
alluded to that
horrific accident like where someone
died or yeah where somebody died because
they were trying to tamper with things
or figure out how something worked yeah
the reactor in particular
but yeti let you touch it
yeah i think what they were trying to do
was cut into one now they had they had
more than one there and they that was
supposedly there was an unannounced
nuclear test
and
that's what it was at the time remember
they would still do an underground
nuclear test at the test site um but
from what i understand according to
barry there was an attempt made now this
must have been a pretty desperate intent
because it's not a very scientific
process to cut you know analyze
something that way but it looked like
they used a plasma cutter or something
like that to cut into an
operating reactor how many of these
things did they have they had nine nine
craft altogether i only got hands on
with one of them so i can't really
say what the how the others operated did
you see the other ones yeah at one time
and only one time the bay doors that
between the hangers were all open and i
could see all the way through
and
were they all exactly the same no they
were all different different shapes yeah
but they were all from somewhere else
yeah absolutely
now
did anyone make any attempt to explain
or to
to tell you where they came from no no
no one is the least bit interested in
letting everybody know
all the facts they want to give you the
minimum information that's necessary to
complete your task so
you're not getting the story of where
they came from you're not getting the
story of what how much progress other
people are making you just focus on
the small component but they gave you
some indication that they've been
working on these for a while yeah
when do you think they
acquired these
i really couldn't say
i think they've been around for a while
so
they bring you into this room you
see this reactor working you you realize
this is nothing that as far as like the
scientific community at current time
has the ability to create
we still don't
what is your life like from that moment
on is that where everything changes
because you do you i mean i would
imagine the moment you actually make
contact with something that's
extraterrestrial whether it's an object
or a being something where you can
actually absolutely be certain it's not
from here
your whole paradigm the whole world you
live in is now a different place well
this is the only time it became exciting
you know the rest of the time the it was
really
an ominous feeling being at work but it
at that time
it was exciting i mean this was now i
knew we were on the absolute be actually
beyond the cutting edge of science and i
was
i was so absolutely excited to be there
every single time i was um
you know it would this was a fantastic
opportunity and
however
in short order it began to concern me we
really have no idea what we're talking
about
and
the excitement kind of turned to dread
at some point
because the amount of power we're
dealing with is astronomical i mean to
affect gravity to produce the effects
like this equipment does takes huge
amounts of power and i've given the
example before of
you know taking a small portable nuclear
reactor and you know putting it back
into victorian times you know with the
scientists of the time and just dropping
it in a room and they come and look at
it and see that it's producing power
and wonder how it works so they start
taking it apart
and
as soon as they get some of the
shielding off the people are going to
drop dead because of the radiation
inside
now the people have no idea that
radiation even exists back then
but anybody that comes in to check on
him will also drop dead and
you know
there's no reason that that exact
scenario couldn't happen with what we're
dealing with we have no idea how the
physics operate within this thing the
power levels are are like i said
astronomic like it's incredibly
dangerous to tinker with something like
that
and you know in some respects we were
guinea pigs just try to find out how to
make this thing so they had a series
as far as you're
surmised that a series of different
scientists try to back engineer this
thing try to figure out what this thing
was and they would bring in new people
and like let's throw bob at it yeah yeah
and they i know i don't know how many
but i knew there was certainly one
before me and i knew he died
during the analysis of the or the
reactor itself and
you don't know how many have worked on
it and no one
gave this could have been there for
50 years it could have been there for
five years when they're giving you
instructions what are they saying like
when they're giving you direction
they're showing you all the stuff like
what what are they saying what
specifically what are they asking of you
well essentially what they ask is is
what i said all we are just to gather as
much information as possible find out
how it operates and see if we can
duplicate it so but they always realize
you where it was from they never let you
ask questions about where it's from well
if
the information i read in the briefings
was accurate now what i do have to say
is
the information that pertained directly
to the reactor
was accurate what i read
did
i mean did jive with reality um in terms
of how
in terms of how it was made how what we
saw how it operated the materials how it
you know turned on and what was
discovered uh
discovered about it
i'm sorry the migraine is really making
it hard for me to thank you sorry no
we talked that before the podcast you
tell her buddy bob is getting a migraine
i know you're very stressed out by this
which is one of the reasons why i
appreciate you doing this
um
where was i already we were talking oh
right yeah explained it
and uh
so there was some paperwork that
indicated that this was from the zeta
reticuli star system now
yeah now how they obtain that i haven't
i haven't the slightest idea but it
wasn't just from the zeta reticuli star
system it was
what they called zr3 so it was a third
planet in that star system so
there was no other information about it
other than that supposedly where the
craft came from now is that true i don't
know i have no way of verifying that but
that was printed in the same materials
that referenced the reactor now i looked
that stuff up when i went home
and
zeta reticular is a binary star
two stars that orbit orbit one another
and it's only visible in the southern
hemisphere and it's about thirty some
odd light years away so that's literally
all the information i have about that i
don't know how they found out it came
from there and you also probably have
some suspicions that they give you some
disinformation like you were talking
about before they would yeah yeah to
i mean if you ever decided to talk about
this they added a bunch of nonsense to
make whatever is factual look ridiculous
right or be able to trace it down like
hey this facts came out and you know
this lazar guy said it you know came
from zeta reticulate so they knew it was
when we read zeta reticulate we're like
what in the [ __ ] is this well reading
all of this stuff it was what in the
[ __ ] is this you're like why did i sign
up for this
no no
to me this was cool this is interesting
i said i was just excited to be out in a
secure area you know in the middle of
the desert i said this is awesome how
old are you
i get as in my 20s
yeah so you're probably
totally geeked out oh yeah
this was this was great i mean i i was
excited so i didn't care
reading through everything and so you
read through all the zeta reticuli thing
but then when you see the actual
starship with the little american flag
sticker on it well that was
was that later or before
that
that was before so before so you see the
thing before and you say oh this is
where what's that before
hard so many years yeah i can't
either way it doesn't matter the days
have fused together it's so hard to
separate what happened in each visit do
you remember the thought process when
you read that it's from zeta reticuli
yeah it it it it didn't hit me like a
ton of bricks or anything it's just like
yeah okay
you think it was [ __ ] i don't know
this is where i don't know now i don't i
mean because when i read it i hadn't
verified anything and this was just a
bunch of stuff i was reading and i
thought maybe after this they're just
going to give me a test and see what i
can remember in right crazy information
and it would but
like i said when i finally
went in with barry
um
and had hands-on
experience with what they were talking
about
it taught on a completely different
meaning so there's a plate there's this
thing that looks like a half a
basketball and when it's on you can't
come anywhere near it you can't touch it
right how is
what is
gravity about that like the the concept
of gravity to most people gravity is
bringing something towards it right well
i guess you would say it's anti-gravity
it's gravity shifted 180 degrees it's uh
you know
anti-gravity
and did they have any understanding
about what could possibly create this
effect
did they have any
areas where they'd like you to look into
no they
well
they knew there was a fuel source in it
and they were proficient
at making it work
and again my analogy to something like
this is you can drop a motorcycle off in
the wagon train days and just leave it
with the keys parked outside you know
somebody's place everybody will come
around it and they'll poke and prod and
eventually they'll turn the key get it
to start and become proficient at
writing it
yeah but they won't be able to
understand what the hell's going on they
won't be able to make the plastic fender
much less anything else and i think
that's exactly the state we were at we
played around with the parts long enough
before i got there where they could make
the reactor operate
take the fuel out and know that it makes
it work
how exactly what was going on
in the reactor
remained a mystery at the time
i think we made some progress on
what was going on inside but i don't
think anybody really knew anything they
could just watch what was going on and
make note of it how long were you there
i'd say about six months or so and what
what progress was made while you were
there
well we came up with a bunch of
reasonably good ideas about how the
reactor worked
and one of them was the base the square
base of it was essentially like a
cyclotron which is a small particle
accelerator a circular one particle
accelerators linear particle
accelerators are just a you know
long tube essentially and they
accelerate particles with high voltage
and you know radio frequencies till they
reach high speeds but a cyclotron does
that in a smaller circular area and
there is this
very heavy element fuel element 115
something that wasn't on our periodic
charts
at the time but it is now it is now yeah
when did it become on the periodic table
now the way the charts now you know i
don't remember do you remember when they
2004
durhamstat germany i think is where they
first fabricated four atoms they lasted
220 milliseconds with the atoms it's
nothing right and then it later was
discovered a couple more times they
could fabricate it then they gave it
they gave it a place then on the
periodic chart after that called it
muscovium so they told you about this
stuff in
1982 yeah well we can 82 what what year
was this it was 88 and 89 when i was
there 82 is one 82 was when you're in
los alamos i'm sorry yeah so 88.89 they
told you about this stuff so this was
not like no they didn't they didn't tell
me about it that's one of the things
that this group came up with
the um
um
i keep losing my train of thought with
this thing
so this one area this
this element 115 was the fuel yeah it
was the fuel um
the the world will forgive you for
having a migraine i can i just it's
really hard to think throughout this
case
i just want to say one yeah definitely
as i said one thing you know but for the
last 30 years
people have just been on the attack on
bob you know getting to know him the
personal effects on his life it's really
hard to understand unless you meet his
family and his wife
i mean this is the last thing he wanted
to [ __ ] do was have to talk yeah we
should explain that jeremy you and i had
this conversation i watched your
documentary
we had this conversation and i said i
have to talk to him yeah the document
there's there's been detractors there's
been a bunch of people that called
[ __ ] on many of the things that
you've said but over time
many of the things that you talked about
even in the 80s have proven to be true
things that people said were not true
were proven to be true element 115 was
one of them
right right right
element 115 the fuel they had was stable
in other words it didn't decay it wasn't
emitting radioactivity um when they
synthesized the two or three atoms of
the 115 uh it did decay
and it was not a stable element so
they're they're kind of two different
things but this is kind of typical
elements
always have or pretty much always have
uh stable isotopes and unstable isotopes
like i think cesium has like
30 unstable isotopes to it so all right
well hydrogen for example you're
familiar with hydrogen gas
it's stable it's not radioactive but
there's also two other types of hydrogen
deuterium and tritium and deuterium
isn't radioactive it's another
stable isotope hydrogen but tritium is
radioactive now they're all hydrogen but
they just have a different amounts of
neutrons so it's the same thing with
other elements n element 115. depending
on the amount of neutrons it has
designates the isotope but it's 115 they
will continue to take
or experiment and try and make 115 at
different isotopes and i'm sure
eventually they'll come up with a stable
version but it's the stable version that
has the properties that we're talking
about so they somehow or another had
acquired a stable version did they say
that the stable version had come with
this craft it absolutely came with the
graft yeah so at the time you having a
firm knowledge of the periodic chart and
knowing what was real and what wasn't
real what was your reaction to having
this stable element 115 that wasn't even
supposed to exist well everything was
impossible right i mean down down to the
metal i i did get a chance
uh to look inside the craft on only one
occasion and this was important because
where the reactor sat
might have been critical to how it
operated since everything operates
without any interconnection so the
placement of components might be
critical so they allowed me to go inside
and and look at it
um
dude again i forgot where the hell i am
so you're going into this craft and what
are you thinking when you're inside of
it like what are you seeing it's um
it's a very ominous feeling because it's
there are no at first of all everything
is one color it's like a dark pewter
color
and there are no right angles anywhere
it's as if somebody took uh i've said
this before somebody took a a model out
of
and fashioned it out of wax and then
heated it just for a short time so
everything melted everything looks like
it's fused together everything has a
radius of curvature where two uh items
meet it's uh it's a really weird looking
thing
but um
uh
there was almost nothing
other than a small foldable hatchway
that
that looked recognizable everything was
uh
was really unworldly
depicting it a way to describe it so you
you get inside this thing and it's
designed for something that's much
smaller than a human being yeah you
can't really stand up till you get to
the very center of it and how tall are
you
i'm 5 10. and what do you think this was
designed for i'd say something close to
half my height wow
so these little
three foot tallish creatures
yeah and the the seats were small too i
mean obviously it was made you know for
something something small but there's no
like there's there's nothing else in
there there's just seats the reactor and
some of the sub components there's no
there's no control panels there's no
bathroom there's no
no decorative uh components or artwork
or anything that you would recognize or
trim i mean it's just a very bare bones
thing you're not seeing any screens
well there are archways around it that
are part of the superstructure
and
that one of the archways can become
transparent
when i was in there there was another
group working on one of the archways and
you could call that a screen more or
less
so through that archway it would be it
would maintain the solidity the the
solid
whatever metal it was yeah but you could
yeah it just became transparent yeah i
saw that happen once or twice before i
left did you ask any questions about
what the phone no there's no there's no
asking questions no
but when you watch something become
transparent and you realize it's still
there but you could now see through it
yeah i mean now that's not that
impressive we do have some liquid
crystal materials that are like that
you know they are seen in smart glass
yeah they call it smart glass so this is
just uh and i don't know if the craft is
made of
you know an advanced metal or a ceramic
it was cold to the touch
so um you know i would lean in more
towards the metal you're not allowed to
ask questions
no the only there they work on the buddy
system so i can only exchange ideas and
talk to barry
now this really interferes with science
because science is based on free
discussion and ideally you get a bunch
of guys together exchange ideas work on
problems and that's how things move
forward
but they're so over the top concerned
about security they split everything off
and
everybody becomes stagnant it it
it just destroys any of the progress you
can make or at least makes it go so slow
um they i think they wind up shooting
themselves in the foot which is probably
why they
arrived at this bottleneck that they
needed to get this madman with a jet
powered honda to come in and see what he
could do i think that was an act of
desperation i think they wanted someone
that thinks out of the box and let's
just give this guy a try here because
they weren't and uh they might have done
this
four more times since uh you know up to
the point in time today assuming they're
still working on this thing
and when you see this craft and you're
inside was there any
indication that there was an area that
they would use to control it to pilot
was there a pilot seat
was there's there were three seats they
sat around uh the reactor was in the
dead center of it
and then equidistant around there were
three seats
so and that's all there was a a large
you would they're not consoles there are
large rectangular objects also spaced
equidistant around the center um there's
nothing on them there's no buttons
there's no lights and they control the
same color everything is the same color
different shape right
and um
directly underneath them there's three
levels in the craft uh the main level is
what we're talking about directly under
that
those are the gravity amplifiers the big
rectangular objects underneath them are
the gravity emitters that look like for
lack of a better word a trash can
hanging on a pipe three of those and
then the top layer
i this is just my personal belief i
think that has to do with a
a navigation or their version of a
computer uh with some planar panels
sensor panels around the craft that we
would call portholes but they're not
portholes they're just black areas and i
think that just determines its
you know position in space
but i was i i physically was in the
center section and i stuck my torso in
the bottom section and hung upside down
so i could see
how the gravity amplifiers were
positioned
what is the the roughly the size of this
thing it's a i think it
i don't remember from being there but um
after all this stuff was over i had uh
john andrews a guy from the testers
model corporation and you know we sat
down and tried to figure out from what i
saw
um
and known sizes of things and we came up
with 52 feet in diameter
so i think that's really small yeah so i
think that's a fair a reasonable guess
now you said there's nine of them and
you got a brief glimpse at the other
ones were they how are they different
oh
they looked completely different one
looked like i called it jello mold and
it it looked like a classic jello mold
with the rippled sides to it one was a
very flat disc
um
you know like a
oh i don't like a straw hat or something
like that that was sitting up on its
edge and the thin part of it had looked
like a projectile had been fired through
the edge of it so i don't know if they
were attempting to see if the metal
could be penetrated or if something or
if that's
where the thing came from maybe it was
shot down um but that was the only one
where i saw there was you know actual
physical damage to it
and that one was roughly the same size
they're all uh they were kind of too far
away to tell
and did
there was several teams that were
working on the propulsion system so
there was different teams that were
working on these different aircrafts i i
don't know i could only assume
now when you're
sitting in this thing
and you're looking at this
otherworldly craft
your your goal is to try to figure out
how this thing functions your goal is to
try to figure out how this reactor
i mean but you would imagine they would
give you more time than just one day to
check that out oh yeah it wasn't one day
right
yeah i mean this is barry was there
i think barry was sleeping there i'm
sure they had now
that that isn't weird i mean up at the
toenap test range where they work on
stealth fighters you know you go i think
three weeks on one week off and you stay
up there too so it's not weird to stay
up at the test site right so um yeah i
think he pretty much didn't he acted
like he's been up there for a long time
yeah um
but he's still there yeah who knows do
you do you have contact with this guy no
oh no i wish i did i kind of thought he
was going to come out after i did right
and i think i took so much flack and
it's so much [ __ ] for what went on
i think i actually i wound up helping
security there and everybody became
afraid of you know doing or saying
anything after that
so what kind of reports did you have to
give like so you're not making much
progress right you're just trying to
figure out what this thing is and it
seems impossible so well we didn't
personally make them i mean we were
always there was never a lot of
information
that we gained um
the guy
you would call him our supervisor his
name was dennis mariani
and kind of a military looking guy and
he would routinely pop in you know
during the day and you know hey what's
going on guys and he would essentially
relay any information anything new we
came up with i mean he was our
go-between you know where we presented
him the information then he took it to
wherever they were
you know
assembling all the data from everybody
no i assume you're working normal days
like an eight-hour day no
no
no it was really weird that i would be
only called in on certain times and
certain days and they would be weird
hours too
most of the time was later in the
evening i mean i can get a call at 11
o'clock at night and they'll say you
know it's now 11 o'clock
um
by 11 45 you need to be at mccarran
terminal and um
you know we'll let you know when
we have more information but what did
you do while you were there if you're
looking at this
object this
reactor and you can't figure out what it
is or how it works other than the fact
that it works on this element that we
don't even know about sure i mean the
thing was to
what you do in you know
with anything if you're trying to
analyze it all you can do is perform
tests
and all we did is try and come up with
every kind of test we possibly could i
mean we tested you know it
it violated
a lot of what we thought was impossible
to violate i mean one of the first laws
of thermodynamics i mean essentially any
machine any device that operates always
makes extra heat
nothing works at 100 efficient
even the headphones you're wearing
anything that takes power some of that
power is going to be con converted to
heat and it's just wasted
this didn't i mean we looked at back
then we had infrared cameras they're
different today but back then you had to
pour liquid nitrogen
into the camera to cool the sensor down
and um
and get these infrared images you've
seen
but it never got no matter what the load
was on the reactor it never got above
the ambient temperature which is
impossible i mean you're you know
pulling out huge amounts of power and
nothing ever gets warm
we tried measuring magnetic fields and
there was was nothing there so we
started playing around with the
emission from the emitters the gravity
wave itself
and saw what we could do with it and how
it was focused so we really spent all
our time
just trying to see
what the stuff can do and what we can
control so you were seeing what it could
do but you couldn't ever figure out how
it was doing it
no not really i mean we really we really
could only use a or come up with a best
guess and
now i can't say we really
that i could absolutely state for
certainly or certainty how anything
actually worked
now
how do did you know at all how they were
piloting it because some they were doing
some tests where they're having these
things
fly around in the sky
and this is
what gets us deeper into your story
right um
i was out there for uh
one test
um
right in fact i was in with barry in the
lab and dennis came in and said uh we're
about to run the test why don't you guys
come out or i think he said barry why
don't you come out here and bring bob
with you uh we went out there and
the craft was already outside the hangar
and was just preparing to lift off now
they were in communication with somebody
in the craft so there's a person in the
crowd yeah there was
certainly a person in there now it's not
a comfortable place to be in because
it's small so the guy has to be sitting
on the floor in the middle uh my best
guess and this is the same specific
craft that you heard that was because
you were that was the only craft that
you were the only one that i i touched
and worked on um
and it it quietly lifted off the ground
which was incredibly impressive to see
quietly or silently
what's
well quietly because it
didn't make sense
it produced um
a little corona discharge from the
bottom a corona discharge is kind of a
high voltage brush little bluish glow
discharge as it was lifting off the
ground you can hear a slight hiss sound
now as soon as it cleared the ground by
about five or ten feet
maybe even less than that the hissing
stopped and the blue gold disappeared so
it lifted off quietly and then it
hovered silently if you want to be
specific
wow so then what kind of maneuvers was
it doing
it took uh for that particular time it
took off moved a little around around to
the left and right and then sat back
down
the um
the craft itself
um
they communicated with it with a reg
because i saw the guy talking
in a regular vhf radio
to the person in the craft and i even
saw the frequency that was on the
the frequency counter of the uh
communication the transceiver there
um
but what's weird is
he shouldn't be able to communicate
with the craft with a radio the radio
the radio wave should bend around the
craft i mean it shouldn't be possible
every single thing about these the craft
and the way they operated
didn't make any sense to us i mean
that's something we talked about for a
while after why should the frequency
bend around the craft
well
you really have to look at the way the
gravity wave comes out of the craft
there's a the reactors in the center and
there's a waveguide that goes up to the
top there's actually a small appendage
that sticks out at the top of the craft
and it produces a heart-shaped
gravitational distortion around the
craft now if the craft is sitting in the
air and you walk underneath it and look
up
you actually cannot see the craft the
light bends around it your bending
gravity bends light it bends radio waves
it's um
it it shouldn't be possible to
communicate with a craft that has an
envelope around it that's distorting all
forms of energy
but
they were apparently in contact with it
somehow or another through some
unexplained way that they don't bother
explaining to you
so this thing gets up it just does some
very simple maneuvers left right left
right goes down
um and
did they discuss this with you i mean
they said they wanted you to see it no
they they just wanted no they they
didn't discuss anything with me it said
it sat down we looked around for a bit
and barry said let's go back we went
back in the lab all we got to do is see
it
um
fast forward
to some months later
i did have the test flight schedule of
the craft now they had times they had
designated high performance tests this
obviously wasn't one
that was a high performance test the
high performance test went goes above
the mountain range and they do much more
radical moves with the thing look this
is a prized item and they're not doing
anything like taking it out of the
atmosphere or flying around to other
countries or anything like that
they just play with this thing right
over the test site
but they were doing some radical moves
with it
and since i had the test flight schedule
statistically
the
amount of traffic and the surrounding
areas on the highway was lowest on
wednesdays and that's why
dennis told us that
all the test flights occurred only on
wednesdays because it'd be the least
chance that anyone would see what's
going on
and this was before the the government
had expanded the forbidden territory
around area 51 and papoose lake and all
that stuff right
yeah i think that occurred
after my story came out then people
started going up on the mountaintops and
trying to look down into there and they
kind of freaked out and then did the
land grab and pushed everybody back but
yeah that i think all that occurred long
after
i'm sorry that i came out
so
you're working there and while you're
working there you're under this crazy
schedule
forgive me for explaining your story but
you
uh would get these phone calls you would
have to go to the to the airport at 11
p.m
and your wife started thinking that you
were having an affair
yeah apparently so
um now i did give my permission to have
you know as as part of the
you know security clearance process um i
i gave written permission to have the
phones monitored and things of that sort
so they weren't doing any covert stuff
they um
you know with any queue clearance or
which is civilian top secret clearance
or military top secret clearance they go
talk to friends and
you know
place places you've been make sure
you're not connected to foreign
countries but you know monitoring your
phone is nothing unusual
however
they
insisted that
you know you don't even talk
to your loved one to your partner to
your wife whatever about what's going on
so she was essentially in the dark
and didn't know the phone was being
monitored
well
part of the security clearance
is that not only do you not have any
connections to foreign countries and
aren't a maniac but you have to have a
stable home life too
well she started having an affair with a
flight instructor
now they were monitoring this on the
phone and they knew it and i didn't
so they stopped me
coming in and their attitude at the time
was
we need to see how this is going to play
out and if lazar is going to get a
little weird or anything so
let's just
you know hold him off from coming in
and
you know see what happens and they
explain this to you what was happening
well after the fact yeah because time
kind of went on
and
there were guys that were following me
around and i started getting a little
concerned going well
ted are they
booting me out of the project and if so
they're not just going to let me hang
out at home and go get a new job knowing
what i know
so
as time went on i started getting a
little concerned and
i took my closest friends and just kind
of got together and i said hey
remember that job i told you about
this is what's going on
and uh like you don't need to take my
word for it
on wednesday night we need to all go out
here i want to show you what's going on
so i took everybody and we went out to
um remember since i had the test flight
schedule and went outside the base
out into the desert and so everybody
could see you know one of the high
performance tests
and you know it left quite an imprint on
everybody so they knew i wasn't and
there's videos of these tests right yeah
but remember this is in the
it's in in the dark in the 80s with a
big monster-sized camcorder and you got
you know a bright light jumping around
but uh yeah i mean we did video of it
but there's no
by today's standards it's but is your
video specifically available the video
that you took
yeah well george knapp has it it's is it
i have no idea jeremy yeah i show clips
of it in my film it's it's online and
someone did a deep analysis of it uh it
was interesting uh to take a look at how
well this microphone up to your face
about a fist from your face all right
um you know to see how his video looks
now but as far as video evidence i mean
we are talking 80s camp was the most
important thing is the human story here
everybody that he took up there on three
separate occasions they don't all like
each other they don't all talk they all
agree on one thing they saw something
that night at the exact point in time
and space that babazar said and remember
this is 17 15 17 miles south of air 51.
no one even knew really about air 51
we're talking papoose lake and they all
agree they saw something that night they
had never seen before and they've never
seen since right when he said it so
that's one of like the six things where
i'm like how did he know you can dismiss
him i i tried to dismiss it but some
things we can't get around and and
there's about five or six of them how
did he know about this if jamie wants to
find that video right now what would he
look under
bob lazar ufo
s for
area 51 just kind of like that uh so
it's like this s4 ufo video bob lazar
and a guy does an analysis but you're
not analyzing these 80s videos right he
from the very beginning bob never said i
have proof of my story and i'm going to
tell the world he said at the very
beginning i cannot prove my story that's
not why i'm telling this george knapp
convinced him to tell people
and he lived through it and i i didn't
believe it either until i i talked with
george
okay so you
you filmed these
this test flight one test flight and
then you get caught
actually it was i think the third time
because it
we went out there the first time
everybody saw it everybody was amazed
because it did some radical maneuvers
and um you know everybody had a lot of
maneuvers that i've seen i've seen the
video it doesn't i don't think there's
something we have now that does that no
in terms of like a human piloted craft
i mean i don't know obviously with the
government no it's it's impossible
nothing can move like that and remember
we didn't start filming from the very
beginning
you know
we were waiting for something you know
to happen the craft took off and then
came flying at us stopped you know
turned it a right angle flew back and
then you know after it did some you know
amazing stuff
to get the camera and then we started
filming so it doesn't have all of it on
there it just has some the way i
describe it to my friends and they said
what does it look like i said take a
laser pointer and then have a wall and
then move it around the wall like you
know how it moves around the wall it
doesn't seem like it has anything to do
with inertia or physics or it's not
impeded in any way by the atmosphere
yeah that's what it looks like you're
essentially separated from reality as
crazy as that sounds with it being in in
case it's an own gravitational envelope
inertia is not going to affect it and
you know this is
this is how some of those recent
sightings of commander david fravor i'm
sure you've heard of the
ufo i mean he describes exactly
that the thing operates exactly the way
i was describing that's why
he was interested to talk to me um but
we saw this
and
you know on the way home it's like hey
we got away with it we should try it
again the next test flight date so this
became a thing to do
and i think it was on
the third time
that we got caught i mean we started
becoming a little careless i think we
took a motor home out there
you know i mean it was like the
stupidest thing you could possibly start
tailgating yeah it was ridiculous and um
again you're in your 20s yeah and you
know what was funny was um
we went out there and
my friend gene huff and i were leaning
on the front of a vehicle
and
just for some reason we just started
talking [ __ ] like uh well i hope they
realize that uh
i don't remember what we were saying but
you know that
something about attacking the base or
something along those lines and stealing
the craft or
something like that
and um
then about 20 feet in front of us we see
a little green light
fall on the ground and roll to us
and unbeknownst to us now it's pitch
black you can't see your hand in front
of your face there were a bunch of
guards standing right out there and they
had a night vision scope where they were
like from here to the wall looking at us
listening to us and the guy dropped it
and the scope rolled over to us and you
could see the green screen
you know we turn the lights on and all
these guys are there so
it was uh whoa yeah yeah so we did
incredibly stupid stuff and got caught
as we should have because so when they
catch you and they bring you in then
what happens well i went in for
debriefing
the following day i went to indian
springs air force base which is kind of
a defunct
base that they used to use at the
nuclear test site
and this is when they brought out
um
the transcript of the phone call
with my wife
and you know they sat me down and we
said you know when we meant to keep the
secret we meant you can't tell your
friends right you know and it just being
sarcastic and trying to mm-hmm um and
then they got real serious
uh but this is where they
you know took the transcript out and
were reading me what uh
my wife
and
you know our friend were talking about
and uh
it was a hard time so what happens from
there
what do they do with you why don't they
arrest you
i don't i don't know i don't know why
i'm not sure they exactly they knew what
to do but they did let me go
that night and i went home
and that this is kind of when the most
stressful part started because you're
realizing you're being monitored
yeah now i know not only am i being
monitored but now i know i'm in trouble
and uh it wasn't a short time after that
that i contacted you know at that time
the
only investigative reporter i had heard
of in las vegas was george knapp
and um you know told him some of the
story because i had no idea what the
hell was going to happen at that point
so george knapp
tries to
dissect your story tries to find holes
in it
tells it puts it online and makes
everybody aware of it and that's how i
found out about it yeah to make a long
story short
what happens yeah to really make a long
story short what happens from there on i
mean do they contact you and say hey bob
it's probably a good idea if you shut up
how
did they try to label you as crazy was
there
there were boy there were a lot of
things that happened at you know between
that point um i'm leaving out a lot of
stuff to fill in the story
we'd have to go back to los alamos and
and
well i really don't want to talk about
that the um
top secret weapons
stuff that you were working on
no i'm talking about the 115.
um
well i don't know i have to think about
how i'd
what is the problem
i don't want to get myself into more
trouble by admitting something so
um i just have to dance around a couple
he was created just during the filming
of the movie people thought the movie's
great by the way thanks joe and uh it's
on netflix right now if anybody wants to
check it out and if you're one of those
people like me
who um you know i've always
loved the idea of ufos i became
extremely weary talking to people who
are ufo believers and ufo fanatics
because there's so many of them that are
full of [ __ ] and not just full of [ __ ]
they're they're childishly delirious
like the way they talk about things i
mean there's so many people that are
that i'm in contact they they reach me
in the night and they explain to me what
we're doing to the ocean is wrong and
like you're like okay this is one of the
reasons i didn't want to do the show
well it's i mean it's no joke we've had
people literally camp out on our front
lawn and uh
you know
in some ways i can relate to some of
these people you know maybe some of them
did really have some kind of experience
or saw something and all their friends
think they're crazy but hey now there's
this guy i heard on the radio
and uh at least he knows i'm not full of
[ __ ] so i gotta talk to him and so most
of the
correspondents i get are people trying
to get a hold of me going bob you you
gotta listen to me i'm i'm coming to
talk to you i'm you know i'm driving
from oklahoma or whatever and and and
but some of them are just [ __ ] bad
[ __ ] crazy yeah they're frightening
there's a lot of schizophrenics that are
involved in the conspiracy world so
there's a lot of people that have real
issues joe
it would be a disservice to your
audience to not say that
we have to look at what's going on now
and understand i've heard
on your show a bunch of stuff about
what's going on now and to not really
understand what's going on now you can't
see bob's story in the correct light
after 30 years and at some point we
should just touch upon that
um the the biggest being that things
like the tic tac ufo case that came out
i've heard people even on the show say
oh there's a glitch in the radar
that's a data poor perspective you just
don't know yet what's really going on
commander fravor i was able to get the
interview with him to talk with him way
before it became public i got that from
him he saw it other pilots saw it this
is a big thing that's going on right now
they had more sightings on the east
coast recently cubes with spherical
auras these are not aerodynamic and
these are the people we trust to defend
us on 911 commander favor protected los
angeles and 911. so we trust them but
they're not trained observers
radar
individuals see these things and the big
the big one just to throw down so we can
consider a story a little differently
there's more depth to it the big one is
the united states government has
admitted that they have been
continuously studying the ufo phenomenon
that program was called a tip advanced
error or sorry
was called awsap that that's the
mother program george knapp got that out
they they announced through the new york
times about a tip
but awesome these acronyms asap advanced
aerospace weapon systems applications
program who cares
that was the mother program so they've
admitted we didn't stop studying ufos in
1969 with project blue book we don't
think it's crazy we actually want to
reverse engineer the technology that's
why on your other show you said what's
this aav thing it's like they're making
up another ufo name well hold on there's
a reason because in the documents the
the dia documents that george knapp
released that everybody said was fake
till now they know is real
they call them aavs which is advanced
aerospace vehicles people are getting
the acronyms wrong so the reason for the
terminology change is so that we can
mimic what we're reading in the dia
documents people can look for that now
so they changed the names to get people
away from ufo or uap even like hillary
clinton said on air right so what are
you talking about hillary clinton
hillary clinton
informed the public on jimmy kimmel oh
jimmy we don't call them ufos anymore we
call them uaps unidentified aerial
phenomenon
right so she kind of was giving their
the clintons are very into the ufo topic
senator reid you know he he's done a lot
for the for the subject the study of it
right
so she informed the public so they could
look for the right term so these terms
are important because the dia in those
documents they've been calling them aavs
for quite some time now and they change
the name to anomalous no that that's
kind of a misnomer
so
they always mess around with things but
it's actually advanced right but when
they're describing it in the news they
were calling an anomalous space vehicle
totally and that's cool they were also
saying anomalous aerospace threats aat
right because they want the sense of a
threat right so my point is all of if
people don't know this now and they
think this stuff is is fantasy this this
part of it that we're studying it that
we take it seriously we're spending
money on it and that we're getting great
data from from visual pilots to to radar
that's why we know it's aerospace they
dropped from 80 000 feet but guess what
that's the top scope of the spy 1 radar
is 80 000 feet so the radar system they
were using it was coming from above that
so my point is this
if you don't understand that this is
happening you're just behind the curve
because you don't have the information
because of the stigma that you're
talking about i saw you get totally
upset with the ufo topic i met you first
when you're totally upset with the ufo
topic it's the people when
when when you're doing your
i'm sorry man when you're when you're
doing your show you know the joe organ
questions everything
i could see
how
how frustrating is trust me i have been
frustrated to hell luckily my mentors
george knapp and he's taught me the pit
bull pitfalls as i went through it my
whole point in this rant right here
is just that we have to now look at
bob's story but knowing the facts
not someone saying it's a bird it's a
plane it's a glitch
they're not and so if you don't know
that you just don't have the information
yet not just that knowing the facts as
we know him in 2019 not in 1988
absolutely and so what has he said
that has come true he's totally
unimpressed with it right what has he
said this come true so i was like bob
they've announced gravity as a wave you
were right man you're vindicated and he
looks at me and he's like well if you
think about it jeremy i had like a 50 50
chance he was not very impressed right
when did they announce gravity as a wave
so they detected in a sense they
detected gravity waves who were who was
they
you might know more there's two black
holes that were colliding and that's how
they were able to detect yeah somebody
bill i don't know which group it was or
what part of the government that's what
google's for yeah would it but they um
you know built a gigantic gravity wave
detector and pretty much
detected that there are such things as
first observation of gravitational waves
it says it was in 2016.
okay the first observation of
gravitational waves was made on 14th of
september 2015 right as announced by the
ligo and virgo collaborators on the 11th
of february 2016 previously
gravitational waves had only been
inferred indirectly via their effect on
the timing of pulsars in binary star
systems
the waveform connected by both
ligo ligo observatories match the
predictions of general relativity for
gravity for a gravitational wave
emanating from the inward sp i'm trying
to get this from the inward spiral and
merger of a pair of black holes around
36 and 29 solar masses and the
subsequent
ring down
of the single resulting black hole
well that i mean
yeah it's not he was in the 80s the
predominant theory was gravity is
produced by gravitons okay you know part
of theoretic theoretical particles but
um they're not they're waves they're not
particles and that's so the thought is
that the way we experience gravity it's
based on mass which is why the moon
which is
roughly one quarter the size of the
earth has one sixth of the earth's
gravity so there's some sort of a
computation you can make based on mass
right and and remember
we can observe
the effects of gravity but we have no
idea what it is all we can do is observe
it and we can't make it the only way you
can make gravity is just put more mass
together and it's just a product of
gravity but if you can make a if you
have a machine that makes gravity
you can pretty much do anything you can
affect time you can have force fields
all that stuff that's in science fiction
becomes reality if you have a machine
that can make gravity and what we worked
on in the desert was a machine that
makes gravity i love your analogy of
dropping off a small nuclear reactor to
the victorian era i love that that
analogy because back then that was
impossible that was magic
what you're talking about here the fact
that they just discovered this four
years ago that this is a wave when we're
as much as we know and as impressed as
we are as we should be with how much
more
technologically advanced we are than
every other creature on this planet
we're still in many ways in the
adolescence of technological innovation
absolutely
absolutely if even adolescence and when
you're talking about this binary star
system zeta reticuli and who knows how
much longer these things have been
around than us who knows what their
evolutionary cycle's been who knows what
i mean we might be talking about
something that's a million years more
advanced than us
yeah yeah it could easily be now i'm not
in
believe it or not i'm not into ufos i
don't follow stories or you know even
after your experiences no i'm fascinated
with the technology and i i it really it
irks me like every night i go to sleep
that you know i don't
that it was my own doing essentially
that
that prevented me from continuing on in
the in the project i mean it's the
that to be on that cutting edge of
technology is so alluring to me right
but
you know by the same token i don't
really care that there's aliens or where
they come from i mean the prize is the
technology and that's what i'm
fascinated by but so i don't listen to
ufo stories and that sort of thing but
george knapp is um
i mean he's the guy that has the context
and tries to thread everything together
and
what he recently told me is he found
i don't know is either documentation or
people that he spoke to it's at this the
existence of this project the project
that i was on it's something that they
seem to take out every eight or ten
years so that's a very specific memo and
this is actually i this is the first
time i'll be very clear with people
about it it's a big topic of
conversation right now it's called the
wilson memo
you can look it up
admiral wilson met with a scientist
who's actually was featured in one of my
films
everybody has been debating whether or
not this document
of a conversation
with a with a sitting admiral at the
time is a real
document it's an actual conversation
that happened and this document is real
everybody wants to know the world is
going crazy right now in the ufo world
i'll tell you straight up right now
i'm in the position to know and it is a
real document
that it is real so the conversation you
read in that
that conversation was had i can't attest
to everything
you're not being very clear sure please
no problem
so there was a document that is
circulating right now that is really big
it's going around everywhere people are
asking what is this talking about it's
called the wilson memo is what how you
can find it online
the or the wilson leak there it is
jimmy's got it the wilson memorandum use
of human volunteers no no no no no
yeah so uh
admiral wilson meets with this scientist
and they have this discussion oddly
enough at special projects at egng and
if i remember the document is from 2001
i'm telling everybody right now it's
real and we'll see my history is pretty
good with like saying if something's
real or not right so here we go the
document comes out they meet at eg
special projects in 1989 they stumble
into a problem
this happens they put the technology
away and then they bring it back out and
see if material science has caught up
and if they can make any progress so
this document kind of talks about this
process the big thing i get from it and
a lot of it's vindicating to bob and one
of the things that's vindicating besides
the eg g thing
is that private industry so this guy's
an admiral and he says i found out about
your sap your special access program i
need to know about it and he's going to
a private part of industry
and he is denied access
and he says i you know i should be
running this program and they were able
to deny him access
so i think the takeaway here is check it
out i'm telling you that that is an
actual correct that is a leak now
everything said in that document i'm i
don't know what are you talking about
what what is said in that document
specifically it's it's a between a
scientist and an admiral that are
sitting and they're having a meeting and
they're talking about
the the search for the the ufo subject
the search to get special access program
access to all of these different things
like reverse engineering programs
so in this document they talk about it
uh i believe that
this document that the person that went
was employed by robert bigelow you know
one of the guys that has a couple of
orbiting satellites and all that stuff
who's the guy owned skinwalker ranch no
he's not he was the guy the walker okay
yeah he used to own it there's a new
owner and i i interview him for my other
film
but there's a new owner and you'll be
hearing a lot more about that soon
but uh like it'll just there's there's
stuff that you'll be hearing about
skinwalker ranching because there's a
new owner anyway the whole point of this
you know insertion here is just that
that document kind of validates a lot of
this idea bob just said that they make a
little progress then they can't go
anywhere they tuck it away and then they
bring it back out you know 10 years
later and start working on it
what is the limiting factor i think bob
should speak on this but it's the
material science
yeah it's really where physics is so i i
can i can see them doing that i mean i
didn't have any
uh
information on that but i think what you
know george uncovered is probably
accurate that uh you know we try and do
what we can and once we reach a
roadblock on we really can't figure it
out it's just friggin wait put the thing
away wait for science to catch up and
you know a decade later let's take the
project out again and see all right now
where can we go but there's got to be
someone who remains informed right oh
yeah you've got your scientists like you
and barry you got your people that you
compartmentalize you got these people
working on yeah there has to be some
people right that know everything you've
got security and then someone's going to
be on the outside saying hey we need
people to guard this building don't let
anybody in for ten years i think i think
a lot of that is private industry and i
think that's how they keep it yeah i
think that's how they literally because
the government is just so leaky i think
that's kind of what they're doing that's
what the document kind of proves you
just articulated that that um it is in
control private industry what private
industry
some aerospace company something i don't
know yeah they wouldn't they would the
guy with the admiral wouldn't name it in
the car right in the conversation right
so
they
still have these things supposedly
i would guess i mean i don't have any
information have you ever asked anyone
that has any inkling of any idea of
where they got them or how they got them
no but um
something must have been said to me um
from barry
and but i i it was just too long ago and
i i can't quite remember what was said
but it
it just left a seat in my mind i think
at least one of them was part of an
archaeological dig
so
it's old
something one at least one of them is
old i don't know if it was the one i
worked on but i remember
something to do with an archaeological
dig whoa so that's uh
that means it's not just old it's
ancient that'd be a great stephen
spielberg movie yeah right
[Laughter]
as all of it would yeah that took me out
when he said that for the first time
yeah that's a freak out right there just
a couple of dudes with some brushes
looking for a tyrannosaurus rex bone and
metal and when did they find it you know
that they have nine of them well and how
could we have not heard about that what
about the guys with the brushes how
could you uncover something like that
and joe's newspaper at home does i mean
they said it on that first day oh you
mean the roswell yeah yeah yeah you told
me yeah yeah i have a cover what is this
here james it's the document but i had
to do some digging to find it yes it's
just kind of
yeah so this is where they meet at egng
and this is admiral wilson and there's a
lot more coming out now i want to be
clear george didn't put this out he
didn't
leak this out to anybody this is i can
tell you how i recorded this this
conversation so this was an employee
of at the time robert bigelow and this
is in 2002 right do you remember when he
had that government contract called
awesap the world all knows about now and
he had nids that studied the ranch so
that 22 million everybody is saying it
was for atip um advanced aerospace
threat identification program
the 22 million dollars was for ossap
that was pushed through through congress
three congressmen right an astronaut it
was pushed through
and that's what that 22 million dollars
by the way they spend more money on
viagra every year than they do studying
ufos if it was just this program which i
think is funny but they probably make a
lot more money from fragrance they
probably do ufos well you never know how
it seeds into population but anyway this
program
uh this is what was the mother program
so it it got the 22 million and really
it was to study skinwalker ranch oddly
enough that 22 million all was inspired
by the phenomenon they were seeing at
skinwalker ranch because the scientists
they're seeing vehicles come through
like a space in the sky yeah we went
there i went through it yeah we
interviewed
a bunch of people that seemed full of
[ __ ] but a couple that didn't but it's
very very interesting totally any
there's but if you look i spent a lot of
time in the area i'm not talking about
those stories i'm saying there were
scientists hired by the government right
through bigelow to study the ranch
because they thought it was important
and you know whatever whatever the point
is that 22 million was to study that
then we have atip which is like an
auxiliary kind of program of military
settings like commander framers and that
sort of thing this document is just one
of those things that has now come
forward that through the bigelow studies
it was government funded and then it was
personally funded and then government
funded
it's just one of those things that kind
of shakes you because you got this
military guy who can't get access
because of the private industry that's
holding these
non-terrestrial materials that they
can't study it so that's the the claim
right now give it some time let people
dig more into this
it's fascinating man
so
you are
essentially
you're you're
you're kicked out right you're you're
out of the this program you can't work
with these crafts anymore and
do they give you any threats do they
tell you what you have to do from here
on out
yeah well i mean the way it ended was
um i told george knapp
all this stuff and um you know he said
well let's just get it on tape should
something happen at least we have a
record of it and um i don't remember
what the emphasis was but um at some
point george wanted to air it and he
said
you know you make the call on it
and look if at any point you change your
mind
we won't air it and it came down to the
day where george wants to put her on the
five o'clock news he said hey this is
important stuff people have to know
about it and i thought it was too either
it's kind of a crime i know you've got
to keep the technology secret but you
can't not tell everybody that this stuff
is going on that we have you know actual
hardware from another civilization it's
a big [ __ ] deal you know probably the
biggest one there ever was
and um
george
said you know today's the day we got to
put it on the news or something to that
effect and when it came
right down to the time to air it i
changed my mind and i said
we're not doing it
and that's what turned into the famous
wrestling match between me and george
trying to get the tape but he won
because he was a bigger guy so he
actually physically wrestled well i
think it was more of a pulling match we
were i don't think we ever hit the
ground but
he got the tape he put it in the player
and boom five o'clock news was on and
then um
i got a call after that and they said it
was from dennis he said you have any
idea what we're gonna do to you now and
he hung up the phone that was the last
communication i had with him
and what has happened to you since then
after that
a lot of people i've known
either were
audited by the irs people had anybody i
know that had clearances that worked in
secure programs had the clearances
pulled one of them uh
friendly
one of mine that jeremy knows he's going
on camera with me soon he'll tell the
story now that he's out of work up there
he was working up at the tonopah test
range waiting for his clearance to come
through and you know they they pulled
that it would it became it's like if
they can't get the person that's
involved they just create a problem for
everybody that surrounds them and so i
mean the way it turns out it hurt a lot
of people's lives that i was connected
to
and that's an effective way of shutting
someone up did you feel that by coming
forward and going public they couldn't
just snuff you out that was i mean
that's what i was told and george and
everybody you know said that you got oh
it's you know it's public there's you
know no one will touch you and i i you
know i i fell for it um
and i i wish you didn't yeah sometimes
sometimes when it's just over stress and
people are camping on your lawn yeah but
it's this is gonna make things worse
doing this no this is gonna make things
better i was trying to tell them how is
this gonna make things better because
you're getting a real chance to explain
yourself in a way that's going to
make people who are not only work in the
government people that are
police officers and firefighters and
first responders and doctors and
scientists they're going to empathize
emphasize
empathize and and empathize with
what it must be like to be a person like
you in your 20s who gets thrust into
this world unknowingly
and confronted with
one of the most if not the most
important discovery in the history of
human beings the big question
are we alone it's the number one
question there's two questions right
what happens when we die and are we
alone those are the two big questions
right
and if we're not alone and someone knows
we're not alone and these some people
who know we're not alone are these
bungling
sort of even if they weren't it's a
crime that they're not telling the rest
of us but i mean i don't mean bungling
in terms they're incompetent i mean they
can't be competent it seems to me to
what you're describing that no one can
be competent with this technology
like the victoria victorian era scholars
analyzing some sort of a nuclear reactor
there's there's no way why do you think
beyond that why do you think they're not
telling us let's just make an assumption
that this is true right now
why do you think that they're not
telling us that our government doesn't
tell us what's your best well let me put
it into
what would you do if i'm the president
okay and i get this information what do
i do with this what do i do with this
there's something that we don't know
there's something we don't understand
there's something that came from another
world we got it tucked away in the
mountains and uh just wanted you guys to
know about it hey sleep tight hey
american motto's on tonight who do you
think's going to win yeah who's going to
win america
one is uncertainty and the other one is
what bob and i have talked about a lot
absolutely not knowing what to tell
people because you don't really
understand it yourself even though
you've got what do you say if you want
to run a government you want to get
people to pay their taxes but there's
something else yeah
what do you say so you have these
objects fine with impunity right and you
that you have something else well not
only that what can you say like how much
do you really know i think it's mainly
the technology yeah they just want to
keep the technology secret because if
there's
yeah whoever gets this dude yeah
you you control the where you become you
literally become invincible once you
master the technology you can't you
cannot penetrate a field like that so
imagine that's i know it's all science
fiction but science fiction turns into
science fact if you have
real force fields around aircraft and
battleships
you you win
you win you can force your will upon
anybody and uh
like i said there's so much more to the
story when i was first there
um
there were russian scientists at s4 that
was this was early on in the project so
this was before operation paper clip
became public as well right so i would
imagine that was i don't know what the
date yeah when was that when did was
that
98 i think 98 yeah yeah i don't know the
dates on it so it's roughly 10 years
later operation paperclip becomes
freedom of information actually it's
about russia not germany he's not a
russian scientist yeah but i mean
russian scientists a lot of them came
from germany a lot of those those rocket
scientists that work with nasa they all
came from nazi scientists got it so some
russians got some of them i just know
that and at some point there was intense
cooperation with even exchanging some
ideas on nuclear weapons and you know
emp tests and stuff things we would
never have discussed with them but at
the same time it was in the late 80s uh
they were involved and actually in the
area at s4 with us so you got to
communicate with these guys or you saw
them no i knew they were there barry
barry would talk about the commies that
were there the communities the commies
and um that was back when they were the
commies
and
at some point it wasn't our group but at
some point there was a big discovery
made
and this did not happen when i was there
it happened in between my trips to there
and after that apparently they decided
it was just too cool to share with
anybody and the russians were never
allowed back on the base after that but
you don't know what that discovery was
no no like i said it wasn't my group so
one of the other groups really found out
something
but the you know
in typical american fashion is all right
this is ours you guys get the hell out
of here was there any inkling that any
other government had something similar
no no nothing that i had heard see that
was the thing that always freaked me out
was why if if something was so superior
to human beings it's almost like
visiting an ant colony like why would
you go to the queen i don't give a [ __ ]
who the queen is i'm a human i'm so
superior to ants i don't care who you
have running your hive i'm just gonna
study it i think it's who got it who got
it look at the
you know rocket technology in germany
but they got nine of them
yeah that doesn't make sense to me
either so they were either in the same
area
or you know one had clues to where
others were
i mean i don't know you you have to fill
that in there but you're right i mean
nine of them that's a that's a a big dig
if it was archaeological well one of the
more recent
recent sightings and the these
discussions that have been coming out
recently from air force pilots and navy
pilots they've been talking about things
happening in the ocean
and that that something
go literally goes into the water or
something maybe below the surface
thinking about water 2004 tic tac nimitz
case so that's when george knapp and i
broke on the radio twice before the new
york times so i know this one really
well commander fravor and those pilots
there was
a disturbance on the surface of the
water
commander fravor visually saw what
looked like similar to across some
object so it's like as if you have some
like coral under the water and you've
got it's breaking over right the tic tac
is doing this crazy maneuver that defies
it's a gravity-propelled system they saw
it in the sky before they saw in the
water right yeah so there was um there
were radar that was picking this these
things coming down from 80 000 feet
dropping to 50 feet in less than a
second this is it jamie what is this
this is actually on the news today there
was a briefing so a lot of people get
this confused not this one then either
no so
that is called the gimbal so there's
three videos released by the pentagon
that are all active play and keep the
volume off
i i would i would really just pay
attention to the source video so you've
got the tic tac which is this object the
commander fravor saw another pilot
filmed it with a flir pod and it goes
but this one you see is really important
to bob's story the gimbal craft it's
been recently analyzed it's fleer not
only does it it's definitive that it's
not a conventional anything by the by
its movements but there's a pocket of
cold air
around a propulsion source
so this object by the way sat stationary
for days if not weeks it sat stationary
yeah they found it 11 hours later and
they were saying there's no way this
thing using that kind of energy to go
that fast could just hover the amount of
time and by the way you're seeing a very
small part of what happened that day
this object was not alone
and so hopefully that information comes
out and we can i mean i wish we had
video of it i'm sure we'd all want to
see it
but that's called the gimbal that was
east coast
right 2015.
west coast 2004 was the tic tac
the disturbance on the water commander
fraber believes there was something
under that water that was causing that
disturbance when the tic tac was coming
around to doing it
with inside the the people that are
studying this they're thinking maybe the
tic tac system was causing the
disturbance
but the uso unidentified submerged
object that he visually saw
uh the whole interesting thing about
that is i would love bob to describe it
is why it doesn't matter if these craft
are in
space
air or water why doesn't it matter i
love when he talks about this [ __ ]
well first of all commander fravor was
the f-18 pilot off the nimitz that was
sent out to find out what this stuff is
but and it wasn't just i got a chance to
talk to him recently and it wasn't just
a radar image i mean commander fravor
had eyes on it for over five minutes
watching this thing as four other pilots
did so this wasn't a radar blip or
anything i mean these guys were watching
this thing but
you know one of the things i think in
the gimbal video
the way the craft that we worked on
flies
is it doesn't fly like
a conventional aircraft does and it
doesn't fly like a flying saucer with in
a 1950s movie it flies belly first
i mean it may set down conventionally
but it always rotates it does a role
maneuver puts its belly towards the
target and then moves away so it's like
a car flying with the wheels forward
right
i mean it may lift land on the wheels
but at some point when it wants to leave
flips flips up points the wheels where
it wants to go and takes off and the
gimbal video you can see the craft do
the roll maneuver and uh
it's really interesting it behaves
exactly like the crafts that i worked on
so
much like we have different shaped
aircrafts and fighter jets and cars they
probably have different shapes of these
objects that operate under similar
principles
right but they all have the same power
source they all have the same power
source and we're also dealing with
if you think about
the laws of technological progression
you know you think of moore's law and
you think of how things accelerate
you've got to think that if this
civilization is who knows how many years
more advanced than we are
if not even years i mean i mean we're
thinking about in terms of conventional
terms right the way the way we look at
the world i mean they meet they might be
just
superior in terms of their intellect
they've got to be maybe maybe we don't
know right well the only reason i
i say that is because
look everyone doesn't necessarily start
at a steam engine right and go to an
internal combustion engine and then you
know electric power nuclear power and go
up the ladder that we right come on um
you know the binary if the stuff is true
about the origin and the binary star
system and they have heavier elements
that we don't have and this element
stable element 115 is a naturally
occurring material
maybe that's the first thing they
started experimenting with and the
version of their steam engine their
first product was something that
operated like this and actually when
they came to earth to look around or you
know whatever they were amazed at the
stuff we were doing these guys burned
stuff and squirted out the back to go
forward so right um right you know who
says they follow any kind of normal
progression like that my my thought was
if you went back to the 1400s and then
you went from 1400 to 1500 you're not
going to see that much of a difference
technologically right if you go from
2000 to 3000 i assume there's going to
be a radical change right well the yeah
the delta the rate of change is is
magnificently higher than it used to be
right so if you think about what they
had in 1988 and you think about what
they probably have in 2019
just
logically seems like they would advance
i would think so
the only
question is like
are they living
is that a living thing in terms of like
a biological thing
or are they some sort of an artificially
created creation like we are working on
right now i mean we're in the middle of
working on artificial reality artificial
beings sentient beings artificial
intelligence there's cons silicon based
life forms that they're essentially
trying to create boston dynamic or was
it boston dynamics of the company
robots yeah you can make machines out of
flesh right so a cyborg or cybernetic
organism is just that you know that's
what a lot of people think those like
gray things are you know that people
call the grays yeah it's like they were
like they're machines printed from flash
so what you're saying is like well they
could just be no synthetic
they don't even need to be you know
machines well they seem to have no sex
organs the way they're described by
people that have had interactions with
them assuming these people aren't liars
right or crazy or whatever right that
they have no sex organs and that they
don't seem to have any muscle that is
almost like a frame right and they have
enormous heads i mean if you look at
australopithecus or depictions of you
know ancient hominids and then you go to
human beings one of the things you see
is bigger heads and weaker bodies well
you see a clear progression of evolution
too where for something like that i
would lean towards a synthetic organism
because it looks like it was made for a
specific task there was no reproductive
organs so i mean that almost kind of
leaves out any kind of you know physical
evolution right well that's also our
bottleneck right our bottleneck is our
biological imperative the the need to
breed emotions fear anxiety all these
different things that exist in order to
force us into making sure we reproduce i
mean that's essentially there's human
reward systems that aren't necessary
once they can figure out a way to make
some sort of sentient artificial life
some sort of thing that doesn't have
these biological limitations that we
have by the way these craft all these
different kinds have been reported
because it was confusing i always
thought of flying saucers what i heard
bob lazar talk about flying saucer right
but if you look back in history people
have always reported the weirdest shapes
like none of them are alike you know
there are the saucers but you got cigar
shaped you got you know the top hat
shape you have orbs why maybe they're
serving different purposes they're doing
different things like we'd use different
tools and i want to be clear the reason
i know that memo is real is because i
spent a lot of time with dr edgar
mitchell six man to walk on the moon
last guy to film him before he died
right
that's how i know i don't want any
journalists thinking i got it from
anywhere else i know because of dr
mitchell and he said the same thing
maybe these things are
performing different tasks you know and
that's what i seem if you if you think
about what an alien is in terms of our
our
the sort of iconic image of an alien
like the steven spielberg closing cows
are the third time the third kind alien
they seem like
what we'd assume a human being would
eventually become right
and if these things are tiny human
beings are smaller than they've ever
been before they're weaker than they've
ever been before and there seems to be a
trend in that direction and this trend
seems to be amplified by our
technological progression
there our
lack of need for muscle strength and our
lack of need for violence and we're
moving in a society to try to get away
from all the things that we think are
abhorrent about human beings and the
terrible behaviors that we have if we
one day do give birth to some sort of an
artificial being like marshall mcluhan's
uh
quote we are the sex organs of the
machine world
you know that one day okay i'll buy this
yeah mcloone was brilliant and that that
quote has always been one of my
favorites because okay what are we doing
when we're constantly technologically
innovating we're constantly looking for
faster cars better computers bigger
screens faster more resolution more
pixels more this more that higher
bandwidth 5g 10g right what are we doing
we're moving into this in this if you
just follow it objectively stay stand
back don't attach yourself or your
civilization your culture to it and look
at what it is we're moving
a hundred percent towards technological
innovation if you looked at this species
from afar and if you weren't a part of
it you would say what does this species
do oh they make things they make things
better every year beehives are the same
[ __ ] thing that you see 10 years ago
you go by you see a beehive it's amazing
it's cool but they're the same [ __ ]
thing they figured out how to do it they
make a beehive right we don't do that we
make better things what would you
constantly and at some point i think
that technology is going to fuse with us
yes and we're going to become it's
already happening yeah elon musk talked
about it on my podcast that we are
cyborgs you just carry it in your pocket
it's a phone it answers any question you
want you can talk to it it'll give you
the answers the answers instantaneously
it navigates you it has all your phone
numbers and it has all your contacts you
can get a hold of people people
listening to you through it it's
connecting us in ways even involuntarily
haptics that kind of thing yeah it's
also getting on your wrist how many
people have eye watches apple watches
right and that's only because we can't
integrate them yet but you know that
point is 100
yeah i didn't joke about it last night
but i have a bit about it that i do
about the the integration between humans
and technology that's what would you do
if you were a hyper intelligence right
would you do the work yourself or would
you create some cool things called like
humans to do it for you would you create
things that are cybernetic organisms to
come in with machines and do it for you
if you're a hyper intelligence that has
kind of changed like you've described
you'd probably create workers right well
that's a vast conspiracy theory i'm not
talking about conspiracy but it is a
kind of a conspiracy i'm asking you well
i mean i don't think it's necessarily
that i mean you could look at it that
way but that is the way a conspiracy
theorist would look at it the way i
would look at it is like there's
obviously a progression going on a
biological progression there's some sort
of an integration with technology
there's some sort of imperative this
need for technological innovation it's
inescapable everyone has it we and i
think it's attached to materialism in
some sort of a strange way because so
many people work so hard to get new
things and like god that seems so
illogical and preposterous and it makes
people unhappy and depression's on the
rise but nobody seems to be able to stop
it like why is that well maybe it's
because we are the
caterpillars that give birth to the
butterfly maybe that's what we're doing
very well what our job is to do is to
make some sort of a cocoon and we don't
even know we're doing it while we're
doing it do you think a caterpillar is
well hey caterpillar what are you doing
man just i'm doing my thing it's my job
i have to make a cocoon then become like
a body this could be a natural part of
evolution it could be that we're just
supposed to do this exactly and make the
jump to
some sort of mechanized right
yeah non-biological an orangutan that is
uh fishing with a spear
no they they've figured out how to fish
with spears there's
uh there's um
primatologists
without somebody showing them how to
fish no they've imitated human beings
doing it and now they do it but they do
it independently they're not trained
orangutans they're wild around look at
that
there's a wild rice okay that's
impressive very impressive well there's
these primatologists i guess you would
call them primatologists that's a term
that's a great biologist biologists that
believe that
monkeys and chimps
and some of the great apes are moving
into the stone age that they've
currently entered the stone age like
they're not staying what they were a
hundred thousand years ago or five
hundred thousand years ago but they're
actively using tools and they're
experimenting with different different
ways to use those tools and then they're
making tools out of stone they're making
tools out of sticks and they're they're
using them
well this might just be what happens
this might just be what happens
i mean why else why would why the [ __ ]
we work so hard i mean i i was i was
driving to la this morning um i had a
doctor's appointment so i was on the 405
at uh eight in the morning like jesus
christ like this is so crazy when you're
in the 405 in l.a at eight o'clock in
the morning you see literally a million
cars
and this is everywhere you go as people
but and also i'm in a tesla so i have it
on autopilot so i'm there sitting i'm
listening to a podcast i barely have my
hand on the wheel i'm not touching [ __ ]
this car's driving me along i'm not even
doing anything i'm just i'm just hanging
out it's so much less stressful by the
way to do that that way right so it
encourages you to innovate it encourages
you to embrace this new technology i got
this giant screen it's showing me the
navigation in front of me i'll be there
five minutes early excellent and i'm
listening to a podcast wirelessly it's
bluetooth screen streaming from my phone
and i pulled that podcast which came out
today out of the [ __ ] sky and i'm
listening to it and i'm all comfortable
in my nice little car just driving on my
way to the doctor's office this is
irresistible stuff yeah yeah different
than your walkman yeah you know that can
be irresistible
it is a resistance it's frighteningly
irresistible but is it frightening i
mean if you were a monkey right if you
were um an australiopithecus would you
go man i don't want to [ __ ] be a
person i live in a house that's [ __ ]
i like just swinging around on trees i
like uh running from jaguars this is
life guys life is running from
crocodiles it's not living in a [ __ ]
suburban there's probably some that are
like that yeah i don't think so i think
i think
when it comes we're going to embrace it
we're going to embrace it the same way
you embrace cell phones the same way
embrace television there's going to be a
few holdouts i don't even have an email
address man those are those there's a
few and far between the good luck with
that [ __ ] face go move to the woods ted
kaczynski yeah i was just going to throw
ted's against
ted kaczynski was right this is
something that i think about sometimes
when i get really high that ted
kaczynski was a part of the harvard lsd
studies this has been proven ted
kaczynski they cooked his [ __ ] brain
when he was at harvard and then when he
went over to berkeley and became a
professor his goal was to make enough
money so that he could
implement this program and live in the
woods and then write his manifesto and
start killing people that were involved
in propagating technology he was
expunged from the harvard uh logs by the
way this is something my friend just
called me about so there's like this uh
private library and they used to print
people's names whenever they were part
of a university and he was one of a
handful of people that were expunged
from it i want to jump back to the one
thing joe
i want to be very careful with that word
conspiracy theorist
what i was what i was saying to you was
we we terraform our earth right
we terraform we change the environment
we do all this innovation
what is stopping us from thinking that
that's not being done i'm not saying it
is i'm saying what's stopping us from
thinking that that's being done on a
much bigger level on a cosmic level you
mean like aliens coming down doing that
to humans i'm telling you that there is
something here that's there's a fact you
know there's something there a craft
they're here they're not ours they're
here so the question is
what is that about and i'm just looking
at what we do with what you're
describing with technology
i think it's much more likely that the
same way we observe chimps and we
observed that they are now in the stone
age that they're observing us and that
they're recognizing that there is a
pattern that there is uh there's steps
that happen i mean carl sagan talked
about the different levels of
civilization and that you know if we
don't get past certain levels we're
never going to reach this i mean we're
in type 1 civilization we're going to
stay at type zero well we're in this
warring
polluting yeah pillaging we're awesome
civilizations
are awesome it's like well we're awesome
in a lot of ways you know but in that
way we're not well yeah we're we're
children that have immense power that we
didn't really the other thing is you're
using the immense power that other
people have created right i mean even
when you're driving a car you're
stomping on the gas like whew you didn't
invent the [ __ ] engine you didn't
invent tires there's all these things
that were in involved in the creation of
this thing that is
really outside of your
[Music]
grasp of understanding but yet you have
the ability to use it like a person with
a gun i'm just gonna bang bang bang
people you don't you didn't invent a gun
so like you've you've without the
intellect to craft and engineer and and
and manifest these creations you just
have access to them because you have
paper or you have bitcoin or you have
whatever the [ __ ] you're using using a
credit card now you have
almost no responsibility you just you
could just flippantly use these things
which is why
we uh
you know we're very childlike in our
actions because we haven't had to earn
the responsibility we haven't had to
earn these things that we've been able
to have and you've only been able to
have them because other people have
innovated and spent
ungodly amounts of time and effort and
focus in the lab to create these things
and then they've all put them together
and then what is the what's the reason
to put them together to profit well
what's the reason of prop well why are
you doing this so you can buy more
things what are we doing what are we
doing we're making better things that's
what we do that's all that's all we do
is make better things yeah why the [ __ ]
do we need oil why do we need oil why
can't we just burn wood and stay home
why can't we grow chickens and food in
the backyard why can't we do well we
[ __ ] can we certainly can people do
do it but we decide to make that almost
impossible our preferred way of living
is to stuff everyone into a very small
area where no one grows anything other
than weed
this is what la is la is 20 million
people with hard surfaces as many hard
surfaces as you can boy if you've got an
acre backyard in l.a holy [ __ ] look at
all that green this is amazing well no
that's the [ __ ] earth coming through
this weird sort of creation that we've
put on top of the earth but the goal is
that like new york city that's there's
none of it right you just got you've got
central park and they just got human
[ __ ] you stacked up no one's growing
anything and then constant work
everyone's up early go go go
innovate progress make that money so you
can buy more things and every year hey
apple where's this [ __ ] new phone as
if your phone isn't good enough yeah
like your phone's taking pictures and
videos and people are calling you and
you got applications to tell you which
way the wind's blowing it's not good
enough a blink of an eye blink of an eye
it's all gone though that you know like
10 000 years and the hoover dam goes or
whatever you know mount rushmore
disintegrates so it's amazing because we
have created that and and everything's
trying to spring up through that we keep
it maintenance down but we're we're a
blink man something hits
but we don't think that way well you
know you think in terms of your own life
right you think in terms of what you
want and what you need right now
you know what it's we are in many ways
this combination of this weird primitive
ape-like thing
with
the ability to calculate and manipulate
our world and our environment that makes
us wholly unique on top of that with
existential angst and and fear so what
do you do with that we [ __ ] water it
down with the anti-depressants give
these [ __ ] people some [ __ ] that
keeps them moving
they're worried about the future they're
trying to figure out what reality is if
this you're on a goddamn convertible
spaceship spinning a thousand miles an
hour hurling through infinity there's no
meaning to this thing just keep making
[ __ ] keep making stuff and then one day
they're going to be able to hit that
switch and this life will be born out of
innovation and thinking and progress and
technology and more than likely it's
probably going to be what we're seeing
that these things are that you're you're
observing
i'm not observing them but yeah
someone's obviously
are you implying that they're us
i don't think they are us but i think
they are what happens when things keep
going
it's not us just like we're not monkeys
right i'm not a chimp
oh that'd be cool
they're from here is your idea no no no
that this is what happens all over the
universe right yeah this is what
happened look here's the thing you know
i went to see brian cox's um
he has this amazing live show with robin
ins where they
they have these led screens these huge
screens with high resolution depictions
of the cosmos and one of the most
mind-blowing things
was he has this large-scale image of the
universe and it shows all the individual
galaxies of the universe and it just
keeps moving through all these galaxies
in three dimensions
and it's [ __ ] incredible but what's
stunning is the relative uniformity of
it even at you know i mean you're
obviously looking at
an incredibly small depiction of
something that's immensely large like a
galaxy of hundreds of billions of stars
you're seeing it as this little dot but
this little dot that's flying through
space surrounded by other little darts
with very similarly spaced distances
yeah
yeah so mike if we see uniformity in
that form in terms of like the distance
between galaxy so many galaxies is so
it's so similar they might vary slightly
and that slightly might be hundreds of
millions of light years right but but
but there's so much uniformity why would
we not assume that that uniformity
exists pretty much everywhere and that
all these things that you're seeing that
are so similar you do see binary star
systems you do see single star systems
like star but there's also some some
speculation that earth and that our
solar system is one time was a binary
star system right i mean that's one of
the the speculations about that that
object that they find outside the kuiper
belt that they think is 10 times larger
than earth they think it might have been
at one point in time a star but this
this uniformity that you see why
wouldn't we think that that
that has its same implications
biologically that there's some sort of a
biological uniformity and that this
happens
given the right sets of circumstances
you should tell them some of the stuff
that you read that you don't know is
true i mean if the the stuff was true
about the
propulsion stuff i mean anyway he well
what have you read
what you saw too and you know what are
you talking about
spill the beans bob
i gotta poke the bear here let's get
some more liquor in you
the um
well i mean
the again the the only thing i could
verify was what i had my hands on um
they were
you know there was talk of weapon
systems that there were different
projects project galileo project
sidekick was supposed to be weapon
applications of the craft
project looking glass had to do with
time any effects of time in the craft
now i don't think we're not
talking about making a time machine like
in science fiction but we're talking
about you know small distortions
intentional distortions of time and how
that can be
used
you know as a uh not as a well it was
part of a weapon program how are you
informed in this these again where
there's just those small briefings that
i read but
again i don't really like to talk about
those because i don't have any
information on them and it was just you
know small briefings but he told
commander fravor that what he saw might
have been a time dilation
well it could be because gravity affects
time you know space time i'm sure you've
heard of that and um
you know what what commander fraber saw
as he was in the f-18 approaching it he
said that he described it as a
ping-pong ball in a cup and shaking it
back and forth it was moving that fast
now obviously if there's anything inside
there
it it's going to be battered to hell but
you know my point was was that well one
of two things
either there's a gravitational envelope
in there which negates any inertia
effects
or
you are seeing through a gravity
distortion field
so you know just like you're looking at
a
a hot highway and you see
you know an optical distortion going
through there well the same thing
happens in gravity and the craft may not
actually be moving like that it may just
look like it because you're seeing you
can only see it through the field so it
may be making much more gentle moves i'm
not saying that's it but it has to be
one of the two
and the thing shows up 60 miles away
they noticed it on radar 60 seconds
after left commander favor but it was at
his cap point which is the next point he
was destined to go to
60 miles away and in 60 seconds on radar
the same object ends up there so it's
going a mile a second no
they i think the radar just picked it up
in 60 seconds
yeah it could have been there instantly
but yeah we don't know the cycle time
nobody knows that that's whole thing oh
so it cycles like radar cycles yeah it
doesn't it doesn't sweep but i mean it
scans yeah it's a planar array so it
just
you know
scans around it at random places that's
a spy one does the really cool yeah it
doesn't do the whole loop anymore right
the point uh the point is though that
the craft moved to his next location
before he knew where his next location
was gonna be jesus and
that's
i mean that's well documented
so that's uh that's a pretty shocking
piece of information what's fascinating
to me too is that you were discussing
this um the the way this reactor worked
and that these things were not really
connected
no nothing is connected
there's no wiring at all
that freaks me the [ __ ] out charge your
iphone you know yeah one wireless
yeah
yeah i mean that's the that's a simple
electromagnetic
yeah i know again but that's just simple
electromagnet magnetic induction right
but i mean tesla the scientist had this
concept of right
he wanted to send
wireless electricity through the sky and
westinghouse was like get the [ __ ] out
of here with that like when anybody
could just pull electricity out of this
meter yeah they couldn't they couldn't
just talk in the car right over and
trying to chill him out you know we're
talking about tesla and how he you know
he couldn't be metered and how it all
went down so it's funny bring it up yeah
yeah that that i mean who knows what
would have happened in terms of
innovation had he been allowed to go
forward with that well we probably
wouldn't have computers
you think
yeah i'm pretty positive i mean forget
about microelectronics well this is
dumping huge amounts of electromagnetic
energy in the air and yeah we'd be able
to wirelessly turn on our lights but
there'd be no radio communication the
interference would be something we could
would be overwhelming it would induce
electric currents in anything with a
small wire on it so integrated circuits
transistors would be disintegrated
before they were even you know tested
for operation so it it would it would
destroy [ __ ] us up yeah it would have
stopped us dead we'd have it'd be great
you could turn lighters on and heaters
from all over the place with no wires
but it would stop modern electronics and
if we became dependent on it it would
almost be like our dependence on fossil
fuels although it's destructive it's
very difficult for us to get off the
nipple
it would have changed the course of how
we developed which is so interesting
when you talk about if a civilization
another star system didn't even start
with fossil fuels they had 115 naturally
on their planet and they're like cool
anti-gravity is pretty awesome well the
fact that i think it's important that
that actually happened yeah
it might have been stopped in its tracks
for a reason
whoa
and
it's just it's i think it's incredibly
difficult for us to imagine
technological progression under another
timeline other than the one that we've
experienced yeah that's difficult
if we imagine what this
alien race must have been like and
i mean god
just just to be able to see something
take like i mean obviously we've seen it
in different life forms right like we
see the life of certain beetles in
comparison to the life of certain fish
very very different existence very
different life cycles octopus yeah
octopus yeah i mean we see all these
different variables in terms of
biological entities on earth but we
don't see it in terms of technological
innovation as we're the only one that's
intelligent that can innovate when we
have intelligent creatures but they're
in the ocean the only other thing that
are like us are dolphins and orcas and
whales and they don't have the ability
to manipulate their environment and
subsequently because they don't have the
ability to manipulate their environment
we put them in fish tanks and we're like
get in the tank do some tricks right
you know the only thing he saw in the
craft if we were considering bob's story
the only thing that you he saw in the
craft that he related to that looked
like a human could make was this
honeycomb hatch and i always loved that
because you're like obsessed with this
thing that you could recognize you know
the re yeah i i only focus on that
because it was the one thing that i
understood how it worked what was it and
it was it was the access to the level
below
and
it was um
well you know if you take uh
you have a six pack of beer and you take
out the cardboard dividers
set it on the table you can put a lot of
pressure on the top
but if you push it from the sides it
collapses flat
so it was something like that in a
honeycomb shape that was essentially
some sort of sheet metal and you could
walk on that in the upper layer but if
you took the corner stuck your finger in
and pushed it collapsed and made a
an entryway so i thought that was a
really unique i'd never seen that before
and it was the only thing in the craft
that made absolute sense to me i said ah
we can make that and all that is is a
hatchway was there any discussion about
the materials that were used to make the
craft
i'm sure there was but that was a
metallurgy division had nothing to do
with us so you never got a
not even the slightest briefing i don't
even know if it was metal or it was
ceramic it's i think it there's a fine
line between the two
now one of the things that's happened to
you that has allowed people to discredit
you was
there's obviously been some sort of an
effort to erase your past
yeah some sort of a ref uh an effort to
erase your education history your
employment history at los alamos in fact
the only way your employment history was
proven at los alamos is someone got a
list a directory of the employees from
the past
and read into it and you were on that
list so it proved that you worked there
even though people were trying to deny
and they were trying to use that as a
way to discredit you that you never did
work at los alamos you weren't really a
scientist
what was what was that like to
experience i mean of course we're
talking about the 1980s the 1990s when
you could get away with something like
that
yeah obviously there are a lot less
uh
a lot less records on computers at that
time it was still file cabinets and
folders but uh yeah that was frightening
that was one of the first things
i think it's i think george knapp was
the first one that uncovered that i mean
he saw my birth certificate disappear he
um it disappeared yeah there was no
record of you yeah there was there was
no record of that there was uh no record
his mom tells me about that like it was
frightening for her for he's got a real
family you know he's a real person it's
frightening for her
but if the los alamos thing really
surprised me and that they were so
adamant that no this guy never worked
here don't be ridiculous and george went
back and forth you know for i got the
letters on the wall yeah months i mean
it was ridiculous but fortunately
somebody came up with a 1982 phone book
directory i mean and also
uh originally i told you uh
you know when i worked there i was on
the front page of the the paper so they
were still able to archive you know
bring that back from the archives and
you know bob lazar a physicist working
here at los alamos so there was at least
something there but uh somehow george
came up with the phone director and then
george then bob took george with cameras
into los alamos oh yeah yeah so we flew
out there and i said look come on in
i'll show you where i worked we'll go in
we'll meet people and george went with
me and you know
i navigate the place oh yeah and you
know met people and you know and almost
was also the place where they had the
machine that was able to read the the
size of your digits no no that wasn't
awesome that was s4 that was s4 and
explain that
so
now this was back in the 80s and this is
back in the 80s where when you discuss
this people like this doesn't even exist
yeah okay what was it it was a way
you know this is before fingerprint
scanners and
you know and anything of
anything any high resolution scanner at
that time so what it was was a device
that uh had a little picture of a hand
on a glass plate with pins in it so you
could jam your hand in there and there
was a bright light above it and a sensor
underneath and when you put your hand in
there the light would turn on and it
would measure the bones in your finger
because the light shown through your
bones
and apparently
the length of the bones in your fingers
are extremely unique and easy to measure
and they use that when you put your
hands on there the light would turn on
and your badge would pop out there's it
right oh there it is that's that's it
and i tried to describe this um to
people and they said that is the most
ridiculous thing we've ever heard
and um
i said hey that my badge came out of
that thing i put my hand on it badge
popped out and that's how i could open
the doors and get into s4
and um you know and everybody
discredited that they said it was
[ __ ] it was science fiction and
jeremy you found this
i i found it through a good friend of
mine named tyler rogoway and he had some
good sources inside of area 52 where
they also used these for the stealth
program right around that time so now
i've got all these people that worked
within who you know said only if you're
in certain programs would we use this
technology it's kind of [ __ ] actually
they didn't keep it for very long
beginning of biometrics so i was able to
reveal it in my film i kept my mouth
shut until i showed it to bob you know
the movie is the first time he saw it
was how you see it in the documentary
that's his genuine reaction i'm getting
goosebumps that was a great idea the way
you did it thank you man because you
know what guess what i'm actually trying
to see if he's telling the truth that's
how i started you know that's how i
started so it was really cool to see
that that you get to see it his actual
reaction has that been verified by other
people yeah so
yeah so to me it has uh personally i get
emails every day and people are telling
me where these are used and how they're
used and send me photos i got a lot of
photos of identity mats now well how
they were used right they're not how
they were used yeah but uh i don't the
most recent one was
way more recent than i thought in
another country but yeah that technology
was used so what's so funny is
um
that this technology even in the area 52
where they'd use him for tonopah one of
the guys who will go on camera with me
he will do an interview with me he was a
technician for one of these and and he
hated them because they were really bad
they always broke down and never and he
was a technician for him now he won't
tell me where if he worked at area 52 so
it's probably tonopah
it's very separated even on base but
yeah so
there was that yeah there is your
education record that was also like what
happened with that
well that disappeared also you know that
i i've i've never gone
i've never gone anywhere for education
i've never gone i never attended any
classes at caltech i never attended
anything at mit
you did attend classes in those places i
did attend classes in those places do
you know anybody that you went to school
with
yes i do and have they verified that
they went to school with you well i gave
jeremy some names but people yeah i the
reason i don't say these names publicly
is because every single time i mention a
name somebody gets injured they don't
want to be of course yeah yeah of course
um but what what is that experience like
seeing your birth certificate erased
seeing your employment well it's
frightening it's it's absolutely
frightening it's also the fuel that the
debunkers use the so-called air quote
skeptics i don't like the term skeptics
i'm going to say this publicly because i
really only said this privately i think
it's a sloppy lazy way to look at things
to just be a skeptic
i want people to be objective
and i think there's a lot of things you
should be skeptical of i think you
should you should look at things and
look at things
from a hard-line science perspective you
should be subjective but the idea of
skeptics the problem with that is you're
always looking for things to be [ __ ]
yeah and i think that's dangerous
because i think some things aren't
[ __ ] it's confirmation bias on the
other end you're just deciding to take a
square thing and put it around hold no
matter what and i find a lot of them to
be lazy
a lot of them to be lazy thinkers sure
because they're always putting it into
that box instead of going hmm
instead of just separating their ego
they're trying they're playing a game
and the game is calling [ __ ] i want
to call [ __ ] and i'm gonna line up
all these reasons why it's [ __ ] and
i'm gonna ignore anything that might be
contrary to that definition yeah
every time i'm thinking i'm going to
catch him in something you know all
along this process um i found dr krangle
he came forward and said i was in
security briefings with bob lazar the
physicist at los angeles he went on the
record with me now the other people i
talked with why won't they go on the
record with me because they're still
working there
so that that's the difference right what
is that what can the public have right
or even if they're not working there
that you know they want to live their
lives why i mean obviously people have
seen what's happened to you mike thigpen
after 30 years yeah really if you look
at all the information on
you know concerning my accounts that's
that's verifiable
it can't possibly be a [ __ ] story
anymore it's really way past that point
yeah i mean that was my big pin is i
mean how could i possibly know
uh so mike fig pin
was the guy that did the security
clearances to go to the bait one of the
guys that was this is the guy that you
worked with he said he did
right and and george knapp you know
george didn't believe him george put him
through four polygraph tests right he
tried to see man this is a big risk it
sounds interesting but let's see if he's
telling the truth one of the things was
bob said there's a guy named mike
thigpen he did security clearances for
the base and that's a weird name it's
very specific
for 30 years george
found this guy in this weird department
that he didn't even know it was my big
pin the guy wouldn't talk to me ghosted
him totally ghosting for 30 years used
facebook and google image match through
his children i was able to find him
after 30 years and i talked to him three
times on the phone he lives on the east
coast he almost went on camera with me
confirmed that he did security
clearances for the base in 1989
confirmed he remembers bob lazar and
what you don't know is there's a
handwritten note that a friend of yours
has from mike what i know i'm gonna give
it to you later i don't but that is real
that is actual so a handwritten note
that says what you know like this is new
to me so when the i
when you're
when they do security client clearances
they go through all your friends and
they go to your friend's phone yeah yeah
so this is too bob and
i had people come to me for a friend of
mine that's serving and they're doing
the security clearance for him and even
though i'm like the ufo guy
they did you know the fbi come and visit
my house and make sure that they talk
about my friend and they lift a little
card and when my wife told him to get
away because he didn't know who they
were they left a little card it's super
cute now back then it was a handwritten
note and his friend has it for him that
you haven't seen in oh my god two
decades
so if you're listening
you're telling me what it is
what is this card
it's just a little handwritten note with
mike thigpen's signature card like like
a like a postcard
like a piece of paper that he left on
the door saying when bob gets back or
whatever it says on it so it's just
another little funny thing i found the
guy he does the security clearances he
admitted to me he did it and he admitted
to me he was dodging george knapp
because when george said his name on the
writ on the on the news he dropped his
fork into his steak or into his potatoes
or whatever and he's looking at his wife
he was in trouble his name's never
supposed to be out there like it's just
a security clearance guy but you don't
want national attention associated with
anything bob has to say but anyway this
unique name bob said for 30 years and
the guy ghosted george knapp george
could prove he existed he actually
talked to me man he talked to me three
times he almost went on camera with me
it's just crazy what what do you what
happens after 30 years you just get more
info well that's one of the reasons why
when you and me and jeremy and george
knapp had that conversation on the phone
yeah i said i think
what we can do
with this podcast
is important i really do i think it's
important for people to hear this
from you in a very clear
just very concise way
and if you examine all the information
that you've said today if you you look
at all the things that the detractors
have said if you look at all of the new
recent evidence that's coming out and
all these
really high-level people in the military
and the government that are discussing
this
it gives you
far more credibility than you would have
had in the 19 years when this came out
[ __ ] yes you can't ignore his story just
because you don't like it anymore that's
why i thought it was important that you
come out and refresh the world's memory
and let people know and like i said i've
been i mean i want to say i'm a fan of
yours but i guess i'm a fan of yours as
a human being i'm a fan of yours but
i've been following you for decades i've
been following the story for decades i
mean i'm kidding i have vhs tapes bob
like a lot of the world has yeah it's
crazy well anybody that has any sort of
uh a vested interest or a just a even uh
just a fascination with ufos has
followed your story because there's no
one else there's no one else that comes
for this some guy who said i worked
underground with the aliens they shot my
hand off like there's a bunch of wacky
dudes
they're underground there's bases
they're shooting lasers through the
earth's crust and they move them at
light speed there's a lot of those guys
they seem schizophrenic they seem crazy
they might even be disinformation agents
they might be people that are designed
to muddy the waters which for sure has
happened people are coming forward
though now it's amazing by doing this
what you're doing you're providing an
opportunity for bob to tell a story you
know believe it or not he can tell a
story it's amazing because more people
will come forward now
that are involved with these projects
they'll come forward to you to me
they're coming forward and so what
you've done here is provide that
opportunity if they need it and it's
amazing i just want to say bob just
don't come forward no don't come forward
to bob
why were you freaking nauseous at the
beginning of this like so
upset why was your why'd you have a
migraine because that started off so
hard my god i was sitting here like did
this why are you asking him why because
obviously anxiety the guy's gone through
30 [ __ ] years of being persecuted i
just want to erase his birth certificate
i just want to hear what you hear from i
want to hear him say i want them why did
i have to say that you don't just set it
up get it i step out okay settle down
yeah well i get it you were it was hard
for you to get them here you know and i
was for us yeah you you don't you do
what really annoys me are the people
that think you know you guys just came
up with the story to make a bunch of
money or get a bunch of you know
attention and that's a good point so
please explain that first of all i don't
get any money out of this at all and i
may i didn't even let you guys buy plane
tickets for me to come out here or
anything i mean
any time like when jeremy
uh pre-previewed i guess the movie up in
michigan
i mean they it brought in like a couple
thousand dollars i made sure that two
thousand dollars went to science
programs at the local high schools there
dirty money i don't want to touch it i
don't take any money from this stuff and
as far as attention
i hate [ __ ] attention i don't like
being on shows i just want to kind of
hide in the corner and do my own thing
so that's i got enough hugs when i was a
kid okay i don't need any attention so
now that if if you if you think somehow
we came up with this thing then you got
to tell me why we did it well you've
done a great job of
making sure you have your bases covered
in that regard that you haven't profited
off of this and like you said that you
have donated whatever money that came
your way to science programs it's i mean
it it doesn't make any sense
any other way
i mean what you're what i've gotten out
of here is what i thought i was going to
get out of here when i watched the
documentary that you what you're saying
makes sense it doesn't make sense that
it's [ __ ] that happened exactly like
i said it did joe i believe you
um in closing is there anything else
you'd like to say
no i can't think of anything other than
really don't come and try to visit me
[Laughter]
well um i know that you have paid a huge
personal cost to get this information
out and i mean maybe you didn't
understand what that cost would have
been when you first initially came
forward with the story but over the past
30 years it's been immense it's been
great and i just want to thank you for
that and thank you for all these people
that would not have gotten this
information and would not have really
had this story any other way
oh thanks joe thank you
and thank you jeremy and one more time
the documentary is available on netflix
right now yeah it's called bob lazar
area 51 and flying saucers all right
that's it folks good night
[Music]
[Applause]
[Music]