Discussing the Frontier of Particle Physics with Brian Cox

0:48

and today we are featuring my exclusive

0:52

one-on-one interview with my friend and

0:54

colleague from across the pond Brian Cox

0:57

Brian welcome hi it's great to be back

0:59

oh my God gosh oh it's it's been been

1:01

tooo long yeah and we don't usually get

1:03

to do it in person it's usually over

1:05

Zoom or something right let's get some

1:07

of your biography out there for State

1:09

Side people who might not fully know who

1:12

you are uh you cut your teeth as a

1:15

particle physicist is that correct yeah

1:17

initially I mean actually my degree is

1:20

the University of Manchester by the way

1:21

in the UK I've never left so I started

1:23

there doing my undergraduate degree

1:24

postgraduate what do they call you there

1:26

now you are professor of particle

1:29

physics at the University of Manchester

1:30

yeah and Royal

1:32

Society as in the Royal Society of

1:34

London yeah Royal Society professor of

1:36

public engagement in science yeah so

1:39

we're Kindred Souls across the Atlantic

1:41

yeah so okay so you never left is that

1:43

because they wanted you so badly or that

1:45

no one else wanted you yeah probably the

1:48

latter but but I started it was actually

1:51

um physics with astrophysics my degree

1:53

so I did a degree physics with

1:54

astrophysics then PhD in particle

1:57

physics although the first year was I

2:00

was working on supernova neutrinos so I

2:03

crossing over in astroparticle physics

2:05

as we would call it then I got into

2:07

particle physics went to the daisy

2:09

laboratory in Hamburg and works on

2:11

electron proton collisions so called

2:13

defc scattering I've seen Daisy online

2:16

I've seen Daisy simulations of things

2:19

they simulate like colliding black holes

2:21

and things fascinating Daisy they Dy

2:24

theut synchron yeah they they have a a

2:27

public facing platform see I didn't know

2:31

that I didn't know because the

2:32

accelerator is no longer operational so

2:35

but it's a big it's it's a huge lab in

2:37

Hamburg so I did my PhD there that's in

2:40

particle physics then moved to fermilab

2:43

in Chicago for a while and then to CERN

2:47

when we were Building A Large Hadron

2:48

Collider and then but I've always

2:51

Switzerland yes in Geneva and remind me

2:53

that's Center the European Center for

2:56

nuclear research research acony French

3:00

acronymed yeah to because it was founded

3:03

in the 1950s and at the time so it was

3:06

it was what part of the Reconstruction

3:07

of Europe really after the war so it was

3:10

a that lab was founded I think it's 1954

3:13

1953 um and so it was Nuclear Physics at

3:16

the time there wasn't really such a

3:17

thing as particle physics I suppose at

3:18

the time and then and now it's by far

3:20

the world's largest accelerator particle

3:23

physics lab yeah I mean the center of

3:25

mass of that whole world left the United

3:27

States when we stopped funding our super

3:30

in Texas yeah the SSC super conducting

3:33

supering super collider yeah I would

3:36

have called it the super duper collider

3:38

that might have kept its funding at that

3:41

point but uh yeah so Europe still leads

3:44

the world in in nuclear particle

3:48

research it's a it's a it's a very

3:50

International lab I mean it is the

3:52

world's cider so um so although it's

3:55

based in Switzerland and France I would

3:57

say it's a it's a world lab

4:00

okay that's very diplomatic of you well

4:02

it certainly is I mean the US have a

4:03

tremendous presence there for example

4:05

while you're saying all this to me

4:07

you're not describing this this branch

4:11

of your life as a musician so just

4:13

briefly remind me of that yes so when I

4:16

was uh 18 so traditionally you would go

4:18

to university there start a Physics

4:20

degree but I didn't because I was in a

4:23

band a rock band that I joined just

4:25

before I'm sure your parents love that

4:27

fact no they did actually they they they

4:29

loved it I could go to college and major

4:31

in physics or continue with my band oh

4:34

but do you have that thing like a gap

4:36

year we call it where you say well I'm

4:37

going to take a year off the studies

4:39

before I go to college or university and

4:41

so I'd said that I'd said I'm going to

4:42

be in this band and and I'm just going

4:43

to do it for a year and then I'll go and

4:45

do physics H but then we got a record

4:48

deal uh a big record deal with A&M

4:50

records this is in 1986 1987 it's a long

4:54

time ago got a big record deal and so we

4:57

we I came to Los Angeles and recorded an

5:00

album with uh actually produced by Larry

5:03

kleene who was married to Joanie

5:05

Mitchell at the time and so we recorded

5:08

some of it in Janie Mitchell studio in

5:10

Los Angeles so and then we toured with

5:12

uh my first professional gig with that

5:14

band was with Jimmy Page in Jimmy pagee

5:18

and did you open for Jimmy Page yeah we

5:19

open for Jimmy pagee and and Gary Moore

5:22

who'd also been in the band thing Lizzy

5:24

and then Europe the The Final Countdown

5:27

so you know this song The Final

5:28

Countdown and Carri was a big h here in

5:30

the US so we opened for them made a

5:32

couple of albums so I did that basically

5:34

for five years and it charted uh

5:37

actually no we we just we did Big Shows

5:39

it was a rock and roll band and then and

5:41

then we I left that band um went

5:45

straight back to Manchester and went to

5:46

start a Physics degree as one do yes but

5:49

then in that little Gap that I joined

5:53

another band who then had some hit

5:55

records so a band called D this is in

5:57

the early 90s now and we we they didn't

6:00

have a record deal when I joined them

6:01

and they got a record deal as well so

6:03

when I was at University I was in this

6:04

band we had a number one hit in the UK

6:07

and Australia with a song which violates

6:09

the second law thermodynamics which

6:11

you'll love call things can only get

6:12

better which is clearly incorrect

6:15

certainly things could only get worse

6:17

globally in the universe exactly so and

6:21

then so so yeah so I had a two and that

6:24

song what helped it if I remember

6:25

correctly some political candidate

6:28

adopted it their theme song Tony Blair

6:31

it was very ton Blair yeah it was Tony

6:32

Blair in

6:34

1997 his associated with his election

6:37

yeah and came back actually into fashion

6:40

because we just had a a change of

6:43

administration in the UK and uh that

6:45

song came up again and it came up and it

6:48

got quite popular again so I did

6:49

Glastonbury this year with the band wait

6:52

that's that huge Place yeah the big

6:53

Festival yeah that's the hu any huge

6:57

scene of musicians in the UK is at that

7:00

location well it's the world I mean it's

7:02

probably the biggest Festival in the

7:03

world I would imagine I would guess but

7:05

it's a huge Festival so you and Brian

7:08

May those we are the two he did it the

7:10

other way around though he he so he he

7:14

got

7:14

extremely well yeah he he got extremely

7:17

famous and then finished his PhD in

7:19

astrophysics yeah okay Brian May good Le

7:23

guitarist of queen queen yes yeah so

7:26

let's pick up some of the physics we are

7:28

both here right now now in Las Vegas uh

7:32

at

7:33

a world Skeptics conference yeah yeah uh

7:37

we we're both Skeptics I mean any

7:40

scientist is a skeptic but problem is

7:43

when the world does weird things who's

7:46

going to put them in check somebody's

7:49

got to show up at the scene and say no

7:52

that's not how that works or no the laws

7:53

of physics prevent that or you so you've

7:57

you've had to do this in the UK right

7:59

there's certain resonances between the

8:02

United States and the UK about how

8:04

people misthink things so what was your

8:06

baptism into this world well actually I

8:09

mean I was only interested in doing

8:13

research for a long time so I as a

8:16

postar and that in that part of my

8:18

career I didn't want to know about

8:19

anything else other than doing research

8:21

and that's all I did but um it was uh I

8:25

can't remember when it was now but there

8:26

was one of those regular funding crises

8:28

as you'll know from here in the US when

8:31

when government support in particular

8:32

for research dipped and so I got

8:36

involved in trying to fight that and we

8:40

realize I mean it's kind of obvious I

8:42

suppose but we realize that one of the

8:45

reasons talking to government that they

8:47

had cut the research budget was that

8:50

they didn't think anyone cared so they

8:52

thought it was a simple thing to demy

8:54

you could just and so we we as a

8:59

Community we were re-ed we we learned

9:01

again we've learned over the years but

9:03

we learned again that popular support

9:05

popular support uh for for what we do is

9:09

important and and where does the support

9:11

comes from it comes from understanding

9:13

and I could there are many reasons by

9:15

the way why uh talking to people who are

9:19

not in science about what we are doing

9:21

as scientists is important one of them

9:23

of course is just purely democratizing

9:26

knowledge it's it we tax payers fund at

9:30

least in part what we do and therefore

9:32

they have a right to know so there's

9:34

that level but on the other level which

9:36

I think you're suggesting as well um

9:38

what science does I think it's not it's

9:42

not about knowing the facts it's not

9:45

about really it's not about knowing the

9:46

universe is 13.8 billion years old for

9:48

example or it's 13.8 billion years since

9:50

the Big Bang we could talk about that

9:51

later actually does that mean it had a

9:53

bite origin in time in the P that anyway

9:56

but it's not put in that we'll get back

9:58

to that okay it's not about knowing

10:00

facts so much

10:02

as understanding something about the

10:04

process by which we acquire reliable

10:06

knowledge about the world and and

10:09

science is the process by which we

10:12

acquire reliable knowledge and so I I

10:14

think that realiz in that on that well

10:18

it's yeah in the sense I think in the

10:20

sense that nature is there whether and

10:26

and it the job of the scientist is to

10:28

find out how it works and of course as

10:31

Richard fan and many others are famously

10:33

said it doesn't care who you are or what

10:35

your opinion is or how popular you are

10:37

how many votes you got or anything how

10:39

much money you've got it doesn't care so

10:41

in that sense I think it is a unique

10:43

Pursuit because the the standard by

10:45

which your opinion is judged is is

10:49

external to us it's nothing to do with

10:51

Humanity nature is the ultimate judge

10:52

jury an executioner so so so I think I

10:56

became involved initially just on that

10:58

very narrow idea that we wanted to make

11:02

sure that people understood what we did

11:03

and what the value of it is and then

11:06

that branch that that became bigger and

11:08

bigger in my career and and Branch

11:10

Stein's television and and live shows

11:12

and all sorts of things but it came from

11:14

that that's I wasn't interested in

11:18

communicating science I was just

11:19

interested in doing it for a very long

11:22

time so you had a certain Duty and

11:25

responsibility to the world well I think

11:27

we all do I mean I've realized since

11:30

that I I think uh actually fan again

11:34

said it's a very brilliant essay that

11:36

anyone can download from 1955 I think it

11:39

is called the value of science it's just

11:41

four pages and it's there it's on calex

11:44

archive I think and in there he says

11:47

that it is our duty as scientists our

11:49

duty knowing the the great value of he

11:54

calls it he defines science as a

11:56

satisfactory philosophy of ignorance

11:58

which is a beauti

11:59

just merely satisfactory it's philosophy

12:01

of ignorance you start out from not

12:02

knowing and he said and he said the

12:04

great value of the satisfactory

12:05

philosophy of ignorance the great value

12:07

of freedom of thought to Proclaim that

12:09

freedom and to try to protect it for all

12:12

coming Generations essentially says at

12:14

the end so but but I like the framing it

12:16

is our duty as scientist to do that as

12:20

well as do our job which is to find

12:23

things out about nature about the

12:25

natural world and I uh in this

12:27

conference I am to bestow upon you the

12:31

Richard Dawkins award for science and

12:34

reason bestow bestow yes the Richard

12:37

Dawkins award is something I won last

12:39

year and uh I was called back in to

12:43

bestow it upon

12:45

you a great honor it is a it will be a

12:49

delight for me it takes place tonight

12:51

yeah I look forward to that and just the

12:54

idea that science and reason is

12:58

something maybe it's sad that it's

13:00

something that needs to be

13:02

rewarded because if it's one of these

13:04

awards that if the world functioned just

13:07

right you wouldn't need it and also you

13:10

know although I said as as fan has said

13:12

it's it's in in a sense our duty as

13:14

scientists it is also true that not all

13:17

scientists want to want to do that or or

13:20

feel comfortable with it as I said I

13:22

didn't want to do it um initially now

13:26

now I very much enjoy it and think it's

13:27

very important but it so we don't need

13:30

everybody to to do it but but some

13:33

people will and that's that's important

13:35

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let's get back to the show so let's talk

15:20

physics take me to the frontier of

15:22

particle physics today what's going on

15:24

at CERN now that the pigs boan is

15:28

discovered and the Nobel prizes were

15:30

granted uh what are they doing now well

15:33

did they just close shop and go home no

15:36

I mean what what particle physics is

15:38

because we're talking about quantum

15:39

mechanics basically it's statistical in

15:42

the sense that do you Collide what we do

15:44

there is Collide protons together at

15:46

high energy and we Collide a lots of

15:48

protons together at high energy protons

15:50

have a charge so that you can put them

15:53

in a magnetic field and accelerate them

15:55

yeah to very high speed yeah so so they

15:57

go so the LHC

15:59

in kilometers is 27 kilm and that's the

16:02

number yeah about 60 miles or something

16:05

like that and uh and the the protons go

16:08

around that ring uh 11,000 times a

16:11

second so that's how fast they go that's

16:13

fast that's

16:16

99.999999% the speed of light okay so

16:19

you you've granted them energy so that

16:22

when you Collide them you break them

16:25

apart you're basically deconstructing

16:28

nature

16:29

to see what residue comes out of it when

16:33

I think of doing that for anything else

16:35

it's going to break right I don't take

16:37

chairs and slam them together and still

16:39

have chairs I have a pile

16:42

of of kindling okay so who ever thought

16:47

it was a good idea to smash nature into

16:50

itself well um I suppose ER is

16:52

Rutherford initially um so we go back to

16:56

Manchester the turn of the 20th century

16:59

and Rutherford was using radioactive

17:02

decay to um essentially produce the

17:05

particles I mean it's just the the decay

17:07

of the decay of atomic nuclei that

17:09

naturally happens to produce high energy

17:11

particles which he then fired into gold

17:13

foil and bounced them off the foil in

17:17

doing that he discovered the atomic

17:19

nucleus so you one way to think about

17:22

particle physics is that you when you

17:24

Collide things together what are you

17:25

doing you you're really building a

17:27

microscope one way to think of it is

17:29

that the higher the energy of the

17:31

Collision the the faster these things

17:32

are traveling uh the smaller the the

17:35

smaller the objects you can see so we

17:38

were talking about seeing for the first

17:40

time in those experiments the atomic

17:42

nucleus and you move forward to the um

17:46

you well ultimately through the 50s and

17:48

60s and we have higher and higher energy

17:50

collisions you start seeing that the

17:52

nucleus is made of protons and neutrons

17:55

and then you start seeing in the 50s and

17:57

60s that the protons and neutrons are

17:58

made of smaller things called quarks and

18:01

so we discover those that we've not

18:03

discovered anything smaller than that by

18:04

the way is it because you don't have

18:06

enough energy to bust up a quark yes

18:08

well well or or to resolve what's inside

18:11

it let's say to build a microscope

18:13

because right now the inventory of

18:15

fundamental particles includes quirks

18:18

yeah so somebody saying that's

18:19

fundamental which sounds a little like

18:21

the Greeks saying atoms are fundamental

18:22

oh no they won't be fundamental you're

18:24

absolutely right but uh but they look

18:26

Point like from the the point view from

18:29

the energies that we can generate today

18:31

but that that's one side of particle

18:33

physics so we've been exploring the

18:34

structure of matter which is

18:36

historically you know it goes back to

18:38

Rutherford I suppose and again you have

18:40

confidence that when you break matter

18:42

apart you didn't break the matter you're

18:46

just deconstructing it yeah you you're

18:49

it really I think the way to think about

18:50

it when you think about what a collision

18:52

is so let's say you Collide as we did at

18:55

in my PhD electrons and protons together

18:59

so you get an electron beam and a proton

19:01

beam and you smash them into each other

19:02

what's actually happening what's

19:04

actually happening is one way that the

19:07

Collision can happen is that the

19:08

electron can emit a photon which is a

19:11

particle of light and the particle of

19:13

light goes and and and it hits the pH

19:15

the proton now the the wavelength of

19:18

that light which is which telling you

19:20

how small a thing you can see is

19:24

proportional to the energy of the thing

19:25

that's how hard we're smashing the

19:27

things together so the

19:29

together yeah so faster you smash

19:31

together the higher the energy the

19:32

smaller the the smaller the things that

19:35

you can see so so that's a way of

19:37

thinking about particle collision so it

19:39

really is a microscope in that sense

19:41

that analogy works I'm just thinking if

19:43

I were a proton I wouldn't want to be

19:44

busted apart into quirks that would not

19:47

be a nice day for me in some ways I

19:49

suppose it's like having it's kind of

19:51

like having an x-ray I suppose isn't it

19:53

you're right though you hit them hard

19:54

enough and they fall to bits but that

19:56

would be the same for you would so

19:59

but we we would try not to hit ex what

20:01

the bits that I fell into no one's

20:03

considered them

20:04

fundamental bits of Neil but right but

20:07

the other way to think about particle

20:09

physics which is I think so you say the

20:11

higs particle you mentioned so that's

20:13

not in the proton you're not you're not

20:15

smashing the things together and finding

20:17

a higs particle buried in there

20:18

somewhere the other side is really so

20:21

you think of Einstein's famous equation

20:23

eal mc^2 so energy and mass are

20:26

interchangeable let's put it like that

20:28

so it also says that if we have loads of

20:30

energy in these collisions then we can

20:32

make new particles that are extremely

20:35

massive much more massive that would

20:37

come spontaneously out of the available

20:38

energy that would otherwise be doing

20:40

nothing so so we have when you Collide

20:43

protons together these energies you have

20:46

plenty of energy there to make a higs

20:50

particle for example or a top quar which

20:53

is a very heavy particle as well far

20:55

more massive than the protons so so

20:58

that's I suppose the way to think about

21:00

trying to manufacture higs particles so

21:02

you can observe them you need enough

21:04

energy to make them so you're not just

21:06

buing them apart you're creating an

21:08

opportunity to view more massive

21:11

particles than would otherwise be

21:12

available to you yeah and the other

21:14

thing to say so to get a complete

21:16

picture is these very massive things

21:17

like higs particles um they they have a

21:21

very short lifetime so you make them and

21:24

they Decay away into lighter particles

21:26

very very fast so you don't see the higs

21:28

particles what you see the the debris

21:31

from the decay of the higs particle and

21:33

the the the the challenge of particle

21:35

physics is to get detect all those bits

21:38

that came off basically and by the way

21:40

you also have the bits of the protons

21:42

that all got smashed up as well so it's

21:43

a big mess and we have more

21:46

than these these it's very hard because

21:49

you don't only have one proton Collision

21:52

per we we we send the particles around

21:55

in little bunches basically so you can

21:57

get 10 20 30 collisions at the same time

22:00

only one of them on a very good day will

22:02

be an interesting one and and then so

22:05

you've got to sift through all this

22:06

which is the the the difficulty or the

22:09

professional challenge let's say of

22:10

particle physics with that reasoning

22:12

there's always some next energy level

22:15

that you haven't visited yes where more

22:17

and interesting physics can reveal

22:19

itself and this is where it gets um

22:21

challenging at the moment because so the

22:24

the so-called standard model higs

22:26

particle and I should just that for a

22:29

minute that that thing the existence of

22:31

this thing was predicted in the 1960s by

22:33

Peter higs and others and um it was a

22:38

suggestion a theory a guess let's say at

22:40

the time mathematically motivated almost

22:43

purely by the way mathematically

22:45

motivated of how things get mass in the

22:48

universe at the most fundamental level

22:51

how the quarks and the these these very

22:54

heavy things called the w and z bosons

22:56

that how how those things got m

22:59

um and so it was a a mathematical

23:01

construct it predicted that there should

23:04

be in the simplest case one this thing

23:07

the higs Bose on but there could be more

23:10

complicated versions and so we knew that

23:15

if we collided protons together at the

23:17

energies that we generate at the large

23:19

handron collider then we would either

23:22

discover the higs BOS on and prove this

23:25

Theory to be correct or we knew that if

23:28

it wasn't there we would see something

23:30

else so we had a very clear idea from

23:34

experiment and theory that we were going

23:36

to discover something with that machine

23:38

and you don't know what it is it turned

23:40

out it was the simplest thing it was

23:42

this thing that Peter higs had had

23:44

dreamt of for all those years ago which

23:46

is astonishing by the way 50 years after

23:49

the prediction and there's there's a

23:51

great essay that you might know by

23:52

Eugene vigner called the unreasonable

23:54

effectiveness of mathematics physical

23:56

sciences I think that's the one of the

23:58

best examples it's an astonishing

24:00

achievement that we got it right and so

24:03

so we discover the higs Bo on to put

24:06

Precision on that that winer's the point

24:09

in that paper it's not that math in a

24:12

vacuum no pun intended makes discoveries

24:16

it's the

24:17

mathematical representation of a

24:20

physical idea yeah and then you pursue

24:23

the

24:25

math and it applies to the universe but

24:28

only if the physical idea

24:32

is has captured reality in some

24:35

fundamental way although the what it was

24:37

I think the it was a a very a very

24:40

mathematical framework which became the

24:41

standard model of particle physics based

24:44

on ideas of symmetries and all sorts of

24:46

beautiful ideas which which really did

24:49

have mathematical foundations so there's

24:51

an aesthetic sense I think built into

24:54

that model and that would be the pure

24:56

mathematical see I'm you know my people

24:59

in astrophysics we have enough

25:01

embarrassing historical examples of

25:06

chasing know elegance and Kepler Kepler

25:09

I'm saying look at Kepler but the I I

25:12

think the genius of Kepler he had these

25:14

platonic solids in these ideas right

25:16

he's got the pyramid and the cube and

25:18

the this and then he rejected it Based

25:20

on data yes in 16 but his his first

25:24

thought was the universe is beautiful

25:27

and divine and perfect and these solids

25:30

are perfect planets are in the universe

25:32

so it must be a connection he spent 10

25:34

years looking at it yeah and but then

25:36

but then he rejected it and then the

25:38

laws of planetary motion which which are

25:40

indicative of a very beautiful thing

25:42

which is Newton's law of gravitation an

25:43

inverse Square law and so there is a

25:46

there's a beauty underlying it but only

25:48

after he had to scrap this other beauty

25:50

that he had presumed it would be that's

25:52

why we we step lightly when someone says

25:55

I have this beautiful idea yeah okay

25:57

let's hear it but but it is true that

26:00

and I think it's one of the great

26:02

Mysteries that that that there is um

26:05

historically Einstein's theory general

26:07

relativity is another example where

26:09

where a quest for Simplicity and beauty

26:11

and elegance which are judgments right

26:14

the human judgments has led to very very

26:18

precise models of the way that nature

26:19

Works given that CERN which has the

26:22

large hyron collider

26:24

LHC discovered the higs boson if you to

26:28

discover more particles presumably you

26:30

have to keep sort of upgrading the

26:33

system as the LHC was compared to what

26:35

was there before so that you can ever

26:39

with ever greater force bust into the

26:42

particles and see what's lurking so we

26:45

can't increase the energy of the LHC

26:48

very easily so or even easily or we

26:51

can't really so that that would be a

26:54

major change to the machine but what we

26:57

can do and are doing is so-called High

27:00

Luminosity upgrades which means you

27:03

Collide more protons together and the

27:05

thing about um so then you win on the

27:08

statistics of the partical physics is

27:10

it's a quantum mechanics and so things

27:12

happen statistically so so it's you know

27:15

one in I don't know the numbers off to

27:17

my one in 10 billion collisions you'll

27:19

produce something like interesting a

27:21

higs it's less than that but um so so

27:24

when when giving yourself more

27:26

collisions gives you

27:28

more chance to discover new particles

27:32

and it gives you more particles like

27:34

higs bosons to explore if you get a higs

27:37

particle after however many collisions

27:40

and that's kind of rare if you have more

27:43

collisions you'll get more higs yeah to

27:45

improve your statistics on what the hell

27:47

the higs is yeah because we want to know

27:49

but then there could be a reaction

27:52

that's even rarer to manifest than the

27:55

higs and if your sample wasn't large

27:57

enough you would just never go there yes

27:58

you wouldn't see it if you just made one

28:01

thing one particle you know what one

28:04

whatever it is the higs prime whatever

28:07

if you made one of those then you

28:09

wouldn't see it if you made one of

28:11

them superhero Nemesis I'm higs Prime

28:14

you know I've come toy by the way and we

28:17

do look for those things Zed Prime the

28:19

zos on we look for the Z primes because

28:21

they can be signatures of extra

28:22

dimensions in the universe by the way so

28:23

we look for this stuff but the point is

28:25

that if something is very very rare

28:28

then you you won't really see it if you

28:31

just make one or two of them you need to

28:32

make hundreds or thousands or whatever

28:34

it is to see them yeah it's like how

28:35

many people have to live in a city

28:37

before you stumble on someone who's

28:39

seven feet tall yeah that's statistic

28:41

statistically you yeah you need so

28:45

possibly Millions yeah so so the

28:47

upgrades are the the upgrades that we

28:49

can do and it's you have to upgrade the

28:50

detectors the cameras that we use as

28:52

well as the machine okay so you kept the

28:54

same hole in the ground yeah yeah

28:56

because we don't want to dig another one

28:57

of those or change other magnets around

28:59

which are very expensive does that hole

29:01

go through more than one country or is

29:02

it all contain intland France and

29:03

Switzerland wow okay yeah most of it's

29:05

in France actually oh didn't know only a

29:07

little bit of it's in Switzerland okay

29:10

so that's one thing and and the other

29:12

thing is this higs that we've discovered

29:15

that this the question Still Remains is

29:17

it the the simplest one the standard

29:20

model higs called or is it something

29:23

more complicated how does it behave so

29:25

the analogy in in in planetary science

29:27

would be yeah we discovered a moon and

29:29

so you go great then you would like to

29:31

know about the moon you don't want to

29:33

just say we've discovered this moon it's

29:34

a DOT that's fine as you said they're

29:37

interest want characterize it in

29:39

whatever way you can for that you need a

29:41

lot of them to to observe so so so it's

29:45

it's exciting that but and it's

29:48

challenging because I I think for the

29:50

first time it's probably true to say in

29:52

particle physics we don't know if

29:55

there's anything else just around the

29:57

corner

29:58

which is bad you know but it's also good

30:02

I suppose it's just science I mean

30:03

ultimately it's neither bad nor good

30:05

it's the way nature is that's that's

30:07

what triggers whatever next round of

30:09

physics is complete yeah you know you

30:11

get PE you get those people that show up

30:13

and say there's nothing left in physics

30:15

to discover well they be they show up

30:18

every few decad so utterly wrong that

30:20

they're not even

30:21

worth I mean you know there's tremendous

30:24

progress being it's such an exciting

30:26

time in fundamental physics mhm at the

30:28

moment that uh particle physics not only

30:32

particle physics but we said

30:34

gravitational

30:35

astronomy the the the exploration of the

30:37

force of gravity black holes Quantum

30:40

information which is related to Quantum

30:43

Computing and also all that stuff is is

30:45

to me utterly fascinating there's some

30:48

really interesting I read some stuff the

30:51

other day which I don't fully understand

30:53

actually um some of the progress in

30:55

string theory it's interesting because

30:58

just as an decide it's linking it seems

31:01

to me it's linking one of the great

31:03

Mysteries which is the so-called

31:04

cosmological constant so the fact that

31:06

we observed that the universe is

31:09

accelerating in its expansion and Nobel

31:11

Prize has been given for the observation

31:13

not for the understanding yes he a

31:15

friend of mine who by the way didn't

31:17

believe his he he didn't believe it when

31:20

he saw it because it wasn't in the air

31:22

this idea he was looking at light from

31:23

Supernova super I'm on I'm on a paper

31:27

with briyan Schmidt yeah I I'm like very

31:29

minor author uh you have to scroll down

31:32

and then like my name is in the super

31:34

NOA yeah but it was it was it was

31:36

analysis of high red ship supern noi

31:38

yeah and I I totally enjoyed that work

31:41

but he obviously went on and made an

31:42

entire sort of yeah branch of his career

31:45

on it so there's this remarkable idea

31:48

that which comes from that which is

31:50

which is in Einstein's theory this idea

31:53

that you can you can have a kind of

31:55

energy in the universe let's say or a

31:57

thing whatever it is because we don't

31:58

know what it is but something that makes

32:00

the universe that the rate the the space

32:02

stretches increase which is uh so that

32:06

that's there and it's observed it's one

32:08

of the great Mysteries because it's I

32:10

think it's the smallest number in all of

32:14

physics by what is it it's something

32:17

like a 10 the^ minus 122 or something in

32:22

appropriate units right which is

32:24

absolutely ridiculously so so it's a

32:26

tiny tiny tiny tiny thing that's causing

32:29

this rate of expansion um but it's not

32:33

zero and so the question becomes why is

32:35

it tiny the the why is it tiny and not

32:37

zero yeah yeah and and so because if it

32:39

were even slightly bigger we wouldn't be

32:41

here so the universe would have been

32:42

blown apart so it seems very unusual but

32:45

I I saw the other week or the other day

32:48

actually that there's some research

32:49

that's linking that in in a in a in the

32:52

framework of a string theory uh or M

32:55

Theory to uh matter so so so there

33:01

there's a kind of an idea that if you

33:02

fix that you get a prediction out that

33:05

there should be um dark matter but it

33:08

turns out it's to do with extra

33:09

dimensions and gravitons in extra

33:11

dimensions and things so it's it's quite

33:13

but it's quite interesting so I think

33:15

there there are some very interesting

33:17

areas of string theory where progress is

33:19

being made quite remarkably do string

33:21

theorist need a fuller or better

33:24

inventory of particles so for example

33:26

are we still looking for a gravit

33:28

are we still looking for you know every

33:31

you shake a stick and there's a

33:32

physicist proposing a hypothetical

33:35

particle to explain Dark Matter to

33:37

explain wouldn't it be cool if the Dark

33:39

Matter were related to gravitons which

33:42

is that this is not my field I only

33:44

heard of it the other day but it sounded

33:47

interesting but it just shows you that

33:48

we so to go back the to to

33:52

LHC um we have the higs particle as you

33:56

said um we had expected I would say most

34:00

particle physicists expected there would

34:02

be other particles discovered there's a

34:04

particular that same experiment yeah LC

34:07

so there's a particular Theory which

34:08

which motivated by String Theory a long

34:10

time ago called super symmetry which is

34:13

a a property of the universe we we we

34:16

it's been around for many decades and it

34:18

came initially

34:20

from either from String Theory are from

34:22

some other is it got Incorporated in I

34:24

can't remember historically which way it

34:26

came but it's um

34:28

but it's it essentially predicts that

34:30

there are double the number of particles

34:32

that we see fundamental particles at

34:34

this energy so so we and they would have

34:37

been great candidates for dark matter by

34:39

the way which is astrophysical

34:41

Discovery so we should say I suppose the

34:44

one the one sentence description the

34:45

dark matter is that we see the the the

34:48

universe there's far much more ma matter

34:50

in the universe than we can see see I I

34:52

would put it differently yeah I would

34:54

say there's far it's not dark matter

34:58

it's dark gravity well you say matter we

35:01

don't know what we don't know what it is

35:02

well true so so you see it through its

35:04

gravitational inter so it's dark gravity

35:06

yeah we don't see otherwise you get

35:09

newspaper headlines say oh uh we must

35:12

abandon our ideas of Dark Matter well if

35:15

it's not matter it's still there okay

35:17

it's misnamed yes I see what you mean I

35:19

mean I I I that's a cool newspaper by

35:22

the way that would have a headline like

35:24

that it goes there at all she usually

35:25

about a football player and so I'm on

35:28

board with that newspaper yeah I'm just

35:30

saying if we don't know what it is we

35:31

had no business calling it matter at all

35:34

so the thing to say though is dark

35:35

Gravity the best which sounds cool so

35:38

you build model you build models and it

35:40

is true that the best model that fits

35:43

all the data which is not just the way

35:44

that gravit that that galaxies rotate

35:47

and and Collide and and the way that

35:49

gravities galaxies kind of lens light

35:52

and all those things but also the cosmic

35:54

microwave background radiation which is

35:56

the oldest light in the universe and and

35:57

how that worked and how the ripples the

35:59

sound waves went through the early

36:01

universe and all that you put it all

36:03

together and and it it fits if you have

36:05

a a light a lsh particle that does not

36:09

interact with light but interacts weakly

36:12

so this would be another category of

36:15

particle in the particle soup yeah that

36:18

has gravity but doesn't interact

36:20

electromagnetically or only very weakly

36:22

and so just it's all right so that

36:25

that's a model though you're right so

36:26

that's a model which is kind of I would

36:28

said the Baseline model the people

36:31

assume that and I don't have a problem

36:33

with it but if anything happens to that

36:37

model it gets shown it can't be true

36:39

people oh then there is no dark matter

36:41

no there's still dark it is a

36:43

measurement in the universe we just

36:45

misnamed it yeah I agree the measurement

36:47

is just galaxies spin round too fast but

36:50

too fast there it is or the way they

36:51

Collide and and so on there's quite a

36:54

lot of independent measurements of this

36:56

thing so tell me about Gra I mean is

36:58

that a real particle I think most

36:59

physicists would say that quantum

37:01

mechanics requires is is the base is the

37:05

base

37:06

Theory I think the reason I'm careful is

37:09

because there is some people who would

37:10

say general relativity is is a thing

37:12

space time is a real thing and all that

37:14

but but I think generally most people

37:16

would say quantum mechanics is

37:17

underlining and that that would if you

37:19

have an interaction in other words

37:20

quantum physics is foundational yeah to

37:23

the universe in ways that even general

37:25

relativity would not be yeah so we we

37:27

talk about this later but the idea that

37:29

space and time or space time emerge from

37:33

a quantum theory is very fashionable at

37:36

the moment partly because of the study

37:38

of black holes so we could talk about

37:39

that but so so given that then you so I

37:43

I should say just for people who are

37:45

watching and listening that um so how

37:47

would we picture the electromagnetic

37:49

force in particle physics so you know

37:51

that if you put like charges together

37:53

they repel and and so on so so what's

37:56

happening there or if you bring magnets

37:58

together right they repel each other

37:59

everybody knows if the North Pole

38:01

together and they repel so what's

38:03

happening in particle physics terms you

38:06

you picture that as the exchange of a

38:08

photon it's a particle of light goes

38:11

from one particle to the other and

38:12

essentially carries the force so that's

38:15

that's what our particle physicist would

38:17

picture a that force all forces have we

38:22

successfully applied that to gravity no

38:24

so that's the point so so so so but you

38:28

the give me a more resonant no the very

38:31

the very

38:32

strong I suppose I'm trying to find the

38:34

right word for it I think it's that's

38:36

why I said conviction it's almost I

38:38

don't know if any physicists who would

38:39

disagree with because if you can't fold

38:41

it into the quantum world you don't

38:45

really have a right to start looking for

38:47

a graviton because you're going to say

38:49

the graviton is the mediating particle

38:51

yes so it's the way the photon is the

38:53

med particle so and that's um I I think

38:56

I don't think you'd find anyone who

38:58

would disagree with that statement okay

39:00

although I don't think you would

39:03

although it is true to say that because

39:05

gravity is so weak so this is the other

39:07

thing to say it is tremendously weak

39:10

compared to the other three forces of

39:12

nature of which electrom magnetism is

39:14

one here I tell people you've surely

39:16

done this in class they say how weak is

39:17

gravity well I can pick something up off

39:20

the floor against the wishes of Earth

39:22

exactly yeah yeah the whole earth is

39:24

pulling on this ball and I can just pick

39:27

it up off and and kick kick it and

39:29

you're using electromagnetism that's

39:31

what's happening so your muscles and all

39:33

that thing so this is all

39:34

electromagnetic force which completely

39:36

destroys as you said the gravitational

39:37

force um but gravity is only additive so

39:42

it only adds up in the universe so is a

39:44

do is the dominant force on Cosmic

39:46

distance scales that's the point about

39:49

gravity here's a calculation I haven't

39:50

verified but it sounded legit uh very

39:53

verifiable I just never I was too lazy

39:55

that uh if you take like the space

39:58

shuttle in its Glory Days and you take

40:00

one remove the electrons from one cubic

40:04

centimeter in the nose of the main tank

40:09

and take all those electrons and put it

40:11

at the base of the Launchpad it could

40:13

would not be able to launch the

40:15

attraction between the electrons at the

40:17

base of the launch pad and the net

40:19

positive charge at the top right yeah is

40:21

enough to prevent it from launching yeah

40:24

that's a cool idea I could see that that

40:26

would be yeah yeah actually would yeah

40:29

borrow a whole so it probably yeah it's

40:32

not a realistic experiment but to get

40:36

some sense of the forces involved yeah

40:38

that's a really nice okay so gravity is

40:39

weak that somehow bails you out of this

40:41

problem well it just means that you

40:43

can't we don't have experimental access

40:45

to them okay because it's so weak I

40:48

agree so whereas we do have experimental

40:50

access to photons yeah unless you could

40:54

potentially have access if there were

40:57

extra dimensions in the universe that

40:59

are configured in the right way

41:01

physicist always throwing in extra

41:02

Dimensions whenever you need it you know

41:05

it is interesting though that that

41:06

string theory Works in 10 dimensions and

41:10

only 10 Dimensions mathematically so

41:14

that's um an interesting observation

41:16

right so I don't I don't I don't have

41:18

the background to be an authentic drink

41:21

Theory skeptic but I know physicists who

41:24

are and so I don't yeah I think there I

41:27

mean it depends I think it depends what

41:29

you mean by String Theory I mean there

41:31

was that if you go back you know a few

41:34

decades you talk to Brian Green for

41:35

example and when he started working in

41:37

this area he would he's a friend of Star

41:39

Talk he been onest several times he

41:40

would have um it's great but the elegant

41:43

universe is a beautiful description of

41:44

string theory and and so I think the

41:46

idea initially with the Hope was that

41:48

you'd have a theory and you could write

41:50

it down it's a theory of everything and

41:52

it would predict the universe as we see

41:53

it and then you go home and done and I

41:55

think that's gone as a as an idea but

41:59

the the the the basic idea of these I

42:02

mean why is it called string theory is

42:04

because particles are not point likee

42:06

the these strings are like little string

42:08

little loops and and but that idea I

42:12

think is still at the foundation of most

42:15

modern theoretical physics in this area

42:17

but it's got much more complicated and

42:20

it's been much harder I think the

42:22

initial idea that you could just predict

42:23

everything from one number maybe has

42:25

gone away one simple equation on one

42:27

line but there is tremendous progress

42:30

being made in in string theory so it's

42:33

it's it's not gone away it's just become

42:35

more complicated I would say well thanks

42:36

for catching me up on this I at this

42:39

conference you're giving a a talk on

42:41

black holes yeah and there was some

42:43

recent announcement the biggest jet from

42:44

a black hole ever discovered ever yeah

42:47

ever uh I I when I was asked about it by

42:52

the Press I simply said there's always a

42:55

biggest jet in the universe and so now

42:57

this one is that the A380 okay airb A380

43:02

it's a fantastic a did I under sell the

43:07

significance of this huge jet so what if

43:10

it's the biggest one unless there's some

43:12

interesting physics that's coming out of

43:14

it the area that I have I share a PhD

43:17

student who's working in the area is

43:19

more is more theoretical it's about

43:20

Quantum information the way the

43:22

information behaves inside and outside

43:24

of black hole what happens to things

43:26

that fall in but um in terms of the

43:29

astrophysical work that if you go back

43:32

you know not long ago we didn't really

43:35

have any observation of how uh things

43:38

behave in the vicinity of black holes

43:40

and so I would put it in that box we've

43:42

got several observations now we've got

43:44

the radio telescope observations from

43:45

The Event Horizon collaboration that are

43:47

shown us how the magnetic fields work

43:49

for example around the the the black

43:51

hole in the Milky Way we've got these

43:53

Jets which are giving you access to the

43:55

magnetic structure presumably in the way

43:57

that they thank you for putting it in

43:58

that context now I can understand it

44:00

broadens the astrophysical data set yeah

44:03

on which we

44:04

can sharpen our hypotheses for what's

44:07

going on yeah because they're hard

44:08

things to observe and of course you

44:10

can't observe the interior because it's

44:12

inside this thing called The Event

44:13

Horizon but what you can do and we are

44:15

doing is observe the way that material

44:18

behaves in the vicinity of them or what

44:21

the other remarkable thing we've been

44:23

able to do in the last few years is

44:24

watch them Collide and see how the

44:27

ripples in the fabric of the universe

44:29

come out and we can detect those ripples

44:31

so all these things are allowing us to

44:33

probe these objects by and it's worth

44:36

remembering that they were present they

44:39

were

44:40

described um non-spinning ones were

44:43

described fully by the work that Carl

44:46

swell did in in

44:48

1916 so months after Einstein had

44:51

published the theory of general

44:52

relativity he didn't know it at the time

44:55

but his the the mathematical descrip

44:57

description he found which describes how

44:59

space and time are distorted in the

45:01

presence of a star a non-spinning star

45:04

is kind of important um those those

45:07

fully describe a black hole that isn't

45:09

spinning remember correctly uh he would

45:12

die in the first World War I don't think

45:13

he made it out of the war no he died in

45:15

1916 so shortly after not not in action

45:19

he not in action okay I think he died

45:21

from dis diseases that it was on the

45:23

Russian front okay it was yeah so War

45:27

related but not I think it was you would

45:29

argue War related uh yeah so we've got

45:31

you know more than a century of

45:34

mathematical foundation for this yeah

45:35

and then you go forward to with no data

45:38

no data no and then then then so it

45:40

takes another 50 years by the way for

45:42

someone to work out what it looks like

45:43

for a spinning one which is Roy Kerr

45:46

it's a famous ker solution but those two

45:50

solutions there they're in Einstein's

45:52

theory in some in a sense um and they

45:55

describe the black ho but um observing

45:59

them is something that we haven't been

46:01

able to do till recently so so in

46:03

multi-wave lengths as well yeah so so

46:05

now we have radio observations the

46:07

gravitational wave observations I'll

46:09

I'll be a little kinder to that well

46:11

because it's the way the thing is you as

46:14

you said right at the start science is

46:16

about yes having ideas building theories

46:19

and so on but it's it's really

46:21

fundamentally about testing those

46:23

theories yeah and so we can talk about

46:25

these theoretical object Jacks black

46:27

holes but really and they are rich

46:30

theoretically But ultimately you've got

46:32

to make observations and that's where

46:34

these Jets and and seeing how material

46:36

behaves it gives you access to the

46:37

magnetic fields and how the thing's

46:39

spinning and what it's that that's

46:41

important hey Star Talk fans I don't

46:44

know if you know this but the audio

46:46

version of the podcast actually posts a

46:49

week in advance of the video version and

46:53

you can get that in Spotify and apple

46:56

podcast and

46:57

most other podcast Outlets that are out

47:00

there multiple ways to ingest all that

47:04

is Cosmic on Star talk let's talk about

47:06

your work with the public you you said

47:10

earlier

47:11

you you share this commitment that binan

47:16

declared duty to bring science to the

47:19

public you you don't you not only talk

47:22

the talk you walk the walk and you have

47:24

spillage everywhere you know you get

47:27

given tours Public tours in in in

47:29

Australia across Europe uh and if I

47:33

remember correctly you're coming back to

47:35

the United States next spring to give a

47:37

tour across the country yeah yeah it's a

47:39

tour that um that that's been going on

47:41

for quite a long time it wasn't meant to

47:43

really but we've ended

47:44

up playing to over 400,000 people across

47:48

the world with this tour wait wait wait

47:49

you're not a musician you say playing

47:51

get your vocabulary I'm look I'm rock

47:54

and roll basically I always been so when

47:57

when

47:58

we we have five trucks and two tour

48:01

buses it's brilliant so I'm reliving My

48:03

Life as a so did I see a version of that

48:05

when you came to the city yeah it was

48:06

very early on just after it was just

48:08

after yeah you have these screens that

48:10

interlock and then the whole stage is is

48:13

yeah and that was a very early iteration

48:16

of this and so it's changed a lot before

48:18

I laid it to rest this tour and develop

48:20

another one I wanted to bring it back

48:22

here in the form that it is now which is

48:25

so radically different from what and and

48:27

it's you celebrating the universe with

48:30

and for the it is and the public it also

48:33

morphed into there's a version that I do

48:36

with the symphony orchestra which is

48:38

great fun so we did it at Sydney offer

48:40

house actually initially um last year

48:43

and it's a big Orchestra because it's 90

48:46

piece Symphony Orchestra because of the

48:48

music that that I chose and so the The

48:52

Reason by the way as a slight digression

48:55

it's part of this tour the classical

48:57

music is a big part of the tour so it

48:59

starts with calus's Fifth Symphony third

49:01

movement and that was because a

49:02

conductor friend of mine called Daniel

49:03

Harding I said to him what should

49:05

Stanley cubric have used in 2001 as a

49:08

joke like what should he have used we

49:10

immediately said seus Fifth Symphony and

49:12

it is it was written in 19 uh 15 same

49:15

year that general relativity was

49:17

published but it's the basis of almost

49:19

every science fiction theme you've ever

49:21

heard you hear it's beautiful and and uh

49:25

so the idea

49:27

which I've always strongly believed but

49:28

it came to my mind as I was doing this

49:30

tour is that what what if we're talking

49:33

about deeper philosophical questions

49:34

which are raised by cosmology I say

49:37

right at the start what does it mean to

49:40

live a finite fragile life in an

49:41

infinite Eternal Universe right is it

49:43

because it and and I say of course I

49:46

don't know the answer to that do that

49:47

uplift people or depress them well but

49:49

but it's that as you know the moment you

49:51

contemplate the Scale of the Universe

49:53

and I should say we don't know whether

49:55

it's infinite we don't know whether it's

49:57

Eternal right but but it could well be

49:58

infinite and eternal for all purposes it

50:01

kind of is right on a human to a human

50:03

scale yeah so so the immediately when

50:06

you contemplate the size and scale of

50:08

the universe you ask questions about our

50:10

place and quite vividly what does it

50:13

mean to live these little finite fragile

50:15

lives and so I think I try to approach

50:19

those questions and you realize or I

50:21

realize that there are other lights you

50:23

can shine on that problem and science is

50:25

a necessary bright and Vivid light that

50:28

casts a very well delineated Shadow

50:30

which is given us some obviously it's

50:32

the framework within which we operate

50:34

but there are other lights so I you

50:37

realize that Mara for example so we use

50:39

Mara in in the classical concerts Mara

50:42

thought a lot about what it means to

50:44

live a finite fragile life and he gave a

50:46

very eloquent answer many eloquent

50:49

answers in his Symphonies and he was

50:50

once asked by the way uh what what are

50:52

you trying to say what what's this

50:54

answer and he said well if I if I could

50:56

say it I would wouldn't have written the

50:57

music good answer you have this music

50:59

love that so so the music so the

51:02

composers that I chose and that part

51:04

they are in the the tour that we're

51:06

going to do NE this coming year NE next

51:10

April 2025 um they're in there as music

51:14

the the composers were chosen because

51:16

they explored this question and gave

51:18

very eloquent answers the the so so it's

51:21

it adds to I think the more

51:24

philosophical exploration of the

51:26

questions that raised by the signs

51:27

what's the name of the tour called

51:29

Horizons Horizons that's easy enough to

51:32

remember okay very cool but there's a

51:34

lot of black holes in it as well I

51:35

should say so it's an exploration of of

51:38

the ideas that I find black is a horizon

51:40

of its own they have Horizons yes but

51:42

but but also life in the universe the

51:44

origin evolution of Life speculations on

51:46

we could talk about speculations on how

51:48

many civilizations there might be as a

51:51

guest well this thing about life in the

51:53

universe you've done many many uh TV

51:56

series

51:57

and most recently one on the solar

52:00

system yeah where the search for life is

52:04

a main theme well yeah we just saw as we

52:07

speak last week the Europa Clipper

52:08

spacecraft was launched yes on the way

52:10

to Europa we have an entire show devoted

52:13

just to that we visited the jet

52:14

propulsion labs and saw felt the

52:17

excitement of everyone there it's great

52:19

isn't it it's the first spacecraft I've

52:20

seen major spacecraft being built so I

52:23

saw the Clipper and the thing is the

52:25

scale of that thing it's it's the

52:27

largest spacecraft isn't it that's ever

52:28

been sent into well if you add the so

52:31

the most massive here's it may be but

52:34

there's another important fact solar

52:36

panels have gotten more efficient in the

52:38

day back if you were going to explore

52:40

beyond the asteroid belt you couldn't

52:43

use solar panels the intensity of the

52:45

sun wasn't high enough this one has a

52:47

very Deployable large solar panel

52:50

that'll help it along without having to

52:52

rely entirely on the on the nuclear

52:55

Decay PL

52:57

yeah so it's a huge spacecraft and the

53:00

point is that Europa Jupiter's moon is a

53:04

prime candidate for for a habitable

53:06

world in the what we know almost

53:10

certainly I'm always the people who I

53:12

know work on the mission say don't say

53:14

we know we we're almost sure there's a

53:17

saltwater ocean below the surface I

53:19

think it's pretty indisputable now so

53:21

pretty sure it's there yeah but whatever

53:23

is the skepticism what would it be were

53:25

it not a glal ocean yeah it's very

53:27

difficult to because and that's from

53:29

many measurements made amonia I mean

53:31

there's not you know water molecule is

53:33

not rare yeah it looks like salt water

53:37

yeah and and we have a lot of

53:38

comparative planetology with is it the

53:41

Arctic when it freezes over you have

53:44

these chunks of ice that will break and

53:46

refreeze and readjust and and you can

53:49

compare the images and you'd think you

53:50

were looking at the frozen Arctic yeah

53:52

yeah so it it looks and there's more

53:55

water in that ocean

53:57

than all the oceans of the earth

53:58

combined geologically active there are

54:01

questions about how the ice cracks and

54:03

moves on the surface so it's a

54:05

fascinating Mission so that's Europa

54:07

Mars of course which You' probably

54:08

spoken about many times on this podcast

54:11

um Enceladus is another one Saturn's

54:13

moon even even out of Pluto I even the

54:16

ones we see the plumes of of geysers I

54:20

guess yeah yeah when at the right Sun

54:22

angle you can see who who took those

54:24

pictures that must must have been right

54:27

right right yeah so and also there's

54:29

some measurements from Cassini the

54:31

particles in those Jets of water which

54:34

are consistent with hydrothermal vent

54:37

activity on the floors and hydrothermal

54:39

vents are one of the plausible

54:42

candidates for the origin of life on

54:43

Earth yes so you seem to have everything

54:46

the one thing I think europa's got that

54:49

arguably nowhere else has is it looks

54:51

like that ocean has been there for many

54:53

billions of years that's the the

54:55

Baseline scenario and we evolve life in

54:58

less time than that here on Earth yeah

55:00

yeah present what 3.8 billion years ago

55:03

3.8 yeah yeah and the the other four and

55:06

a half billion years old so right yes so

55:08

so it looks like you have a habitat

55:09

that's been stable there and I think you

55:11

can't CL that with in fact you know it

55:13

was taught that it took about a half a

55:15

billion years on Earth to get life going

55:17

but we were able to revise that number

55:20

down because in the early Earth these

55:23

periods of heavy bombardment it's not

55:25

fair to start the clock while we're

55:27

still getting slammed by you know still

55:29

accreting leftover rocks from the solar

55:31

system as the temperature of the surface

55:33

of the Earth is high enough to prevent

55:35

complex molecules give us a chance

55:38

please so the the periods of bombardment

55:41

subside Earth surface cools now start

55:44

the clock and then it's about 100 100

55:46

million years yeah yeah so that's like

55:48

that yeah which is one of the reasons I

55:51

think that I think if you speak to many

55:53

biologists they would say that might

55:55

suggest that given the right conditions

55:58

then whatever the origin of life is

56:00

there's a reasonable probability given

56:02

the right conditions because it happened

56:04

quickly here right so but that now

56:06

that's not that's not definitive in any

56:08

sense but certainly tempting to go there

56:11

but then but what I find very

56:13

interesting then is though when you ask

56:15

okay but when did life get more complex

56:17

than a single cell you're you're then I

56:20

don't think there's any evidence in the

56:21

fossil record back Beyond about 600

56:23

million years ago that took a while yeah

56:25

we we as single cell creatures three

56:28

billion years yeah plus but it seems so

56:31

I think people who think about this

56:33

problem are honest about that and so in

56:35

the search for life on other planets

56:37

we're really looking for single cell

56:39

organism well it would be it would be

56:42

remarkable to see anything more complex

56:44

well it' be remarkable to see a single

56:45

cell because then you

56:48

know especially if it were biologically

56:50

different so you can really show that

56:52

it's got a different origin because it's

56:53

worth saying that on Mars the material

56:55

is exchanged between Earth and Mars so

56:57

it's not obvious yeah that you could and

56:59

you make all these points in your Series

57:01

right so where where where can people

57:03

find your series it's streaming I

57:04

presume yeah yeah we've got the new one

57:06

is just on the moment actually that's

57:07

what I'm saying the solar system so that

57:10

will appear on Apple I suppose at some

57:12

point and other places yeah I mean it's

57:14

the moment it's on the BBC so um and

57:17

it's streaming on the BBC and then it

57:18

will head off around the world one of

57:20

the coolest things I think about Europa

57:22

is that the the habitat that the

57:25

potential habitat requires Jupiter

57:29

because the the heating it's liquid

57:31

because of theing around a big but it

57:35

also seems to require well it requires

57:37

the other moons iio and ganim to keep it

57:39

in this orbital resonance which keeps

57:40

feeding the energy in from the

57:42

gravitational field the Family Affair

57:44

but it also might need the the the

57:46

material from the volcanoes of IO on the

57:50

surface of Europa because they might

57:53

provide the what what we call the

57:55

oxidant right so that so so life is so

57:58

you're saying that the an IO which is

58:02

badly stressed it's just one big volcano

58:05

there one big volcano so th it spews

58:09

volcanic substance yeah faster than

58:12

escape velocity apparently and then it

58:13

goes which lands on on EUR and it it

58:16

goes into Pathways that intersect other

58:19

moons Europa included you do this for a

58:22

billion years and then the

58:24

chemistry and then it gets iradi helps

58:26

out the chemistry yeah so we we one of

58:29

the theories that that I've spoken to

58:31

people on the clip emission said is that

58:33

that's part of the battery of life that

58:36

chemistry so life I can't remember who

58:38

said it but he said life it was someone

58:40

said it's life it's an electron looking

58:42

for a place to land that's what life is

58:45

it's just in one way you can see life is

58:47

electrons moving around but that means

58:49

you need the chemistry but to is that

58:51

all we are just electrons looking for a

58:53

place to land well that's that's whatt

58:56

I'd rather be Dust in the Wind whatever

58:58

all we are so so but I find that

59:01

wonderful because then you've got this

59:02

habitat which is a system and as you

59:05

said comparative planetology you

59:07

mentioned earlier it's also true of

59:08

Earth isn't it you you can't understand

59:11

Earth without understanding the system

59:14

the solar system you need to understand

59:16

the moon and how it stabilizes the spin

59:19

axis and you need to understand of

59:20

course the sun and the way it interacts

59:21

with Earth and so on I'm a few years

59:23

your senior I don't know if you would

59:25

remember this but I defitely do the era

59:27

where no one was thinking or caring

59:29

about moons yeah in the solar system you

59:32

know we had a we have a dead Moon

59:33

orbiting us oddly large but fine let's

59:36

go look at the planets yeah and so every

59:38

Mission out to the planets we the they

59:41

looked over their shoulder and found

59:43

moons which had way more geologic

59:46

diversity than anything we're finding on

59:48

the planet you know I found it

59:49

interesting because did you I mean when

59:51

you were in school did where were we pre

59:54

Voyage well Voyage it so I'm pre Voyager

59:57

and Voyager turned the moons into Worlds

59:59

yeah that's what happened yeah yeah so

1:00:01

the idea you have a habitable zone in a

1:00:03

solar system which is the The Zone

1:00:05

within which if you have a rocky planet

1:00:07

orbiting and everything's right then and

1:00:09

the atmosphere is right you could have

1:00:10

the conditions to support life on the

1:00:12

surface liquid water let's say and so

1:00:16

and so that turn out to be needlessly

1:00:19

limiting well exactly so so so you just

1:00:21

say well Mars Earth Venus in our solar

1:00:24

system that's it but then you find reh

1:00:26

habitable zones around gas giants that

1:00:29

and that as you said that was the great

1:00:30

discovery of VO Voyager I would say yeah

1:00:33

began with voyager really for sure yeah

1:00:35

should be 19 early 1980s right so I'm

1:00:38

I'm delighted even as a particle

1:00:39

physicist you get to also platform the

1:00:42

solar system because you you have the

1:00:44

name recognition was always but that's

1:00:46

why I said I started with astrophysics I

1:00:48

really just wanted to be an astronomer

1:00:50

so I've always been I've I've got a

1:00:51

telescope you confess to me I a safe

1:00:54

space to do that ended up in particle

1:00:56

physics it was almost so I was doing

1:00:58

astrophysics that's what I was doing and

1:01:00

I thought I want to be an astronomer we

1:01:02

University of Manchester has the jodell

1:01:03

bank radio telescope for example which

1:01:05

one of the big radio telescopes in the

1:01:06

world still and so I that wasn't the one

1:01:09

that discovered the first Pulsar was it

1:01:11

uh no that Cambridge CD CD J discovered

1:01:15

something else I mean just George bank

1:01:17

it's it was one of the first so it's

1:01:19

Pine it's one of the pioneering it's it

1:01:21

does a lot of the work work on the camp

1:01:22

pulsar and so on but uh it was uh so so

1:01:25

I thought I'd be an astronomer and I

1:01:27

have a telescope you that's what I do I

1:01:29

I sit there and in we accept you in the

1:01:31

club even though you you you drifted to

1:01:34

particle physics space expiration so

1:01:36

that's what all what but it was at

1:01:38

University I just got interested in

1:01:41

mathematics I didn't think I was very

1:01:43

good at mathematics at school and uh but

1:01:46

I found out if with a bit of practice

1:01:48

then I I enjoyed it so I ended up really

1:01:51

getting more into theoretical physics

1:01:52

and and went that way so that's why I

1:01:55

ended up in partical physics really but

1:01:57

then now of course I I've every every

1:02:00

opportunity I get I seem to drift back

1:02:02

because the universe is cool you know I

1:02:05

don't want to brag about the universe

1:02:06

but and black holes actually are where

1:02:09

they intersect they absolutely particle

1:02:12

physics and general

1:02:13

relativity astronomy and the Big Bang

1:02:16

itself course yeah yeah yeah yeah with

1:02:18

your particle physics hat where are we

1:02:20

with neutrinos now I thought with

1:02:22

they're sort of fully understood we

1:02:24

solved the nutrino problem in the Sun

1:02:27

that a Nobel Prize was given for that uh

1:02:30

is there anything left to discover about

1:02:32

this elusive particle that belongs in

1:02:35

the in the I say Tree of Life in the the

1:02:38

particle Tree of Life yeah I mean there

1:02:40

are neutrinos are fascinating things

1:02:43

that they're very very very they're

1:02:45

almost massless but not quite and that

1:02:48

matters that should ring bells you know

1:02:50

it's like why that's the thing about

1:02:51

science isn't it you go why is this

1:02:53

unusually light or maybe it isn't maybe

1:02:56

the other things are unusually heavy but

1:02:57

but but but it's telling us something

1:02:59

and it's only

1:03:00

neutrinos that how hard it is to

1:03:02

interact with them they gives me any

1:03:05

belief at all in some other set of

1:03:08

particles that might exist that we don't

1:03:10

interact with because neutrinos are our

1:03:12

own species well they interact through a

1:03:14

the weak Force they interact but that's

1:03:16

us that's our little world here right

1:03:19

any other symmetric particles there

1:03:22

other forces that mediate them is that

1:03:24

correct there would be so if you have um

1:03:28

sort of extensions to the standard model

1:03:30

of particle physics then you you can

1:03:32

have forces that change things into

1:03:34

other things and and so different forces

1:03:37

but as far as we know as far the zoo

1:03:40

that we have discovered is is described

1:03:42

by the three forces um the strong

1:03:45

nuclear force the weak nuclear force

1:03:46

electromagnetism and then hanging out

1:03:48

there as we've discussed is gravity in

1:03:51

in really a different framework at the

1:03:54

moment so I Coral Steve ber in elevator

1:03:56

one day and

1:03:59

uh and you know physicist I'm telling

1:04:02

you I'm telling the audience particle

1:04:04

physicist one of the greats yeah and he

1:04:07

went to my high school let me allow me

1:04:09

to add one of wi Nobel laurates from my

1:04:12

high school and I

1:04:15

said how can you live with yourself at

1:04:19

night given how many particles there are

1:04:22

come on there's like I lost count what

1:04:25

what what does what does this mean about

1:04:26

our universe and he said it's not how

1:04:30

many particles there

1:04:32

are it's how many laws we have that

1:04:36

describe them all yeah and it's only

1:04:38

just a few yeah I thought damn good

1:04:41

answer yeah he's I remember Steven Weber

1:04:44

good answer I I think I'm right in

1:04:47

quoting him as saying that he almost

1:04:50

wish black holes didn't exist because

1:04:53

they're so perplexing that it would be

1:04:55

just easier and he was kind of joking of

1:04:57

course because physicists love a mystery

1:05:00

but he was almost like this is too

1:05:02

difficult there too bizarre maybe nature

1:05:04

doesn't make them oh I got so see see

1:05:07

he's he's invoking human limitations on

1:05:10

the capacity of kind of joke and he was

1:05:12

just saying these things are so baffling

1:05:13

and so weird in some ways I'd rather

1:05:16

they weren't there you know did he say

1:05:17

that in his old age so that he was

1:05:20

getting tired of solving the universe he

1:05:22

was joking so we're still trying to

1:05:24

explore neutrinos and as I understand

1:05:26

there's a new nutrino experiment that

1:05:29

just there came online I mean there are

1:05:31

several I mean I so the I mean what the

1:05:35

fundamental question they they do seem

1:05:39

that the reason we're interested in them

1:05:40

just we're interested in them because

1:05:42

they're three of the 12 fundamental

1:05:44

particles right so so we are made of

1:05:49

basically three particles that's us and

1:05:52

electrons protons neutrons uh well no so

1:05:55

so the protons and neutrons are made of

1:05:56

quarks oh so okay quarks down let let's

1:06:00

start from the we're made of atoms you

1:06:02

can start with we're made of atoms and

1:06:04

we ATS in Greek means indivisible yeah

1:06:08

that's what that word means yeah and and

1:06:10

I it is remarkable by the way you say

1:06:12

the the Greeks 2,000 years ago uh we

1:06:15

only discovered that the structure of

1:06:17

atoms in the 20th century or there ads

1:06:19

existed well yeah it was up for debates

1:06:22

the turn of the 20th century it was one

1:06:24

of the debates in science is there such

1:06:25

a thing as an atom yeah it's incredible

1:06:28

incredible yeah yeah yeah and Einstein

1:06:30

indeed in 1905 one of his famous papers

1:06:32

was on brownie in motion which one of

1:06:35

the three famous papers in that year one

1:06:37

of the other one was special relativity

1:06:38

and the other one when he got the Nobel

1:06:40

Prize for was the photo electric effects

1:06:42

the third one Einstein we should just

1:06:44

retroactively give him like a dozen

1:06:45

Nobel prizes it's astonishing he didn't

1:06:48

get the Nobel Prize for relativity you

1:06:50

got it for basically the foundation to

1:06:52

Quantum Mechanics yeah we we discovered

1:06:54

that matters made of atoms and then we

1:06:57

very quickly discover after that that

1:06:59

the atom is a electrons initially we

1:07:02

have this almost solar system like model

1:07:04

that it's a a nucleus a dense nucleus

1:07:07

with an electron going around it and

1:07:09

then we discover the nucleus is made of

1:07:10

protons and neutrons that's 1930s by the

1:07:13

way by orbit model is still the the

1:07:16

symbol for an atom yeah you know yeah

1:07:18

the atomic because it's classic you know

1:07:21

but that's Adams look nothing like that

1:07:22

no no no and so then quantum mechanics

1:07:24

comes in tells you you can't have that

1:07:26

because charged particles moving around

1:07:28

in the vicinity of other charged

1:07:29

particles radiate energy away and they

1:07:31

wouldn't be stable and that was known of

1:07:33

course um and so then you find that the

1:07:36

nucleus is made of prot and neutrons and

1:07:38

as I said the neutron it's a 1930s

1:07:40

Discovery so we're not that long ago I'm

1:07:42

amazed when so much you know we're now

1:07:45

in the

1:07:46

Centennial decade of the discovery of

1:07:48

quantum physics back in the

1:07:50

1920s and the whole 1920s was done

1:07:54

before we discovered the new

1:07:56

that's crazy yeah it's it's it's almost

1:07:58

living it is living memory for some

1:08:00

people just about this okay so let's get

1:08:03

back to the fundamental particles then

1:08:05

then we discovered that the protons and

1:08:06

neutrons are made of quarks quarks so

1:08:08

they are as far as we can tell Point

1:08:11

like objects so they're fundamental they

1:08:13

won't be but as far as we can tell they

1:08:15

are experimentally so we have the photon

1:08:18

the electron well let's the matter

1:08:21

particles so we have so the up and down

1:08:23

quarks make up protons and neutrons so

1:08:25

proton is is two ups and a down and a

1:08:27

neutron is two downs and an up got it

1:08:30

and we have two quarks per energy

1:08:33

stratum here correct well so then so

1:08:36

then we discovered so we had this we

1:08:38

have this nice thing so we have the

1:08:39

electron as you said the up and down

1:08:41

quark and then the thing called the

1:08:43

electron

1:08:44

neutrino which we so we just talked

1:08:46

about NEOS so only four fundamental

1:08:48

particles in anything we know or care

1:08:50

about so we have four of them yep that's

1:08:52

it and then we have so I can construct

1:08:54

you out of these particles if I had the

1:08:56

the

1:08:57

recip but then so we have four of them

1:09:00

so so that's there's four of them and

1:09:02

then the for is that that mediate the

1:09:04

interactions right okay and which we can

1:09:07

also think of as being carried by

1:09:09

particles as we said we have the photon

1:09:11

partic the electromagnetic force we have

1:09:13

the w and z bosons which do the weak

1:09:15

nuclear force and the gluons which the

1:09:18

strong nuclear force and stick the

1:09:19

quarks name gluons GL okay and and so

1:09:23

that's it it seems except that there are

1:09:26

two copies of those that are identical

1:09:31

except they're more massive so the so

1:09:34

there's there's the Str the charm and

1:09:36

strange quarks and the muon and the M

1:09:39

neutrino that's another family that's

1:09:41

nothing that's the next level up in

1:09:42

energy they're more massive more massive

1:09:45

okay okay so you have the charm and

1:09:46

strange and the muan and the Muno and

1:09:50

then you have another one yeah which are

1:09:52

the bottom and top or sometimes called

1:09:54

Beauty and Truth depending on how you

1:09:56

want to do it the quarks and then the

1:09:58

TOA and the to neutrino and that's it as

1:10:01

far as we can tell so that those are the

1:10:03

M 4812 fundamental particles and their

1:10:06

antimatter counterparts yeah and then

1:10:08

the antimatter counterparts and so that

1:10:10

that why we don't know so why there are

1:10:15

three and with with experimentally

1:10:18

proven really with some very small

1:10:21

caveats only three generations only

1:10:23

three families of these things

1:10:26

is there reason for there to be only

1:10:27

three could there be five 10 so we don't

1:10:29

know it must be something to do with the

1:10:31

underlying it looks like a periodic

1:10:33

table so remember you go back to men

1:10:36

mendal and the periodic table what what

1:10:38

how do you understand that pattern in

1:10:40

the in the chemical properties of the of

1:10:42

the elements you understand it when you

1:10:44

know that everything's made of atoms

1:10:46

yeah I mean the chemist arranged it but

1:10:48

didn't have any understanding of it no

1:10:50

quantum physics well well you need to

1:10:52

know the structure you need to know that

1:10:53

there's a nucleus and there's you know

1:10:55

hydrogen's got one electron and helium's

1:10:57

got two and carbon how can we only get

1:10:59

you so far yeah so so you you understand

1:11:02

chemistry you understand the pattern

1:11:03

when you understand the building blocks

1:11:05

okay so we don't know why that pattern

1:11:07

is there but it's clearly telling us

1:11:09

about the building blocks or the

1:11:11

underlying Theory which we don't know so

1:11:13

it's one of the great Mysteries so so

1:11:15

this so that's the the the zoo of

1:11:18

particles as we know and then there's

1:11:19

the higs and just to be clear when I

1:11:22

attacked Steven Weinberg in the elevator

1:11:24

uh most of the particle identities I was

1:11:27

referencing are different combinations

1:11:29

of different quirks yeah come together

1:11:31

yeah so all these like you said in the

1:11:33

f50s and people were discovering all

1:11:35

these things and they're different

1:11:38

combinations of ups and downs and

1:11:39

strange and charm and and and bottom and

1:11:43

you know and so on so they exist in our

1:11:45

universe but again they're made of the

1:11:46

more

1:11:47

fundamental so so basically the these

1:11:50

things that the proton and neutron

1:11:52

they're kind analogous to an atom in a

1:11:54

way so so they're a thing they're quite

1:11:56

a big things in particle physics and

1:11:59

they have an internal structure and and

1:12:01

one yeah and one of the things that I

1:12:03

was involved in that we did back in

1:12:04

Hamburg all those years ago was we were

1:12:06

mapping the structure of the proton so

1:12:09

we we we're saying what what is in the

1:12:10

proton how does it work maing the

1:12:12

interior structure of the proton and we

1:12:13

need that we needed that for the LHC so

1:12:16

we need because we Collide protons

1:12:17

together so so we have very detailed

1:12:20

maps if you like they call structure

1:12:22

functions but they're maps of the of the

1:12:24

proton well

1:12:25

thank you pleasure for joining me I I

1:12:28

always love talking to you being we're

1:12:31

just like we're Kindred Spirits in this

1:12:34

world and I wish you great success with

1:12:36

your spring tour does it go beyond the

1:12:39

United States is it a world tour it has

1:12:41

been a world tour we've been to I don't

1:12:43

know 20 or 30 countries I said we we

1:12:46

we're probably approaching half a

1:12:47

million people who've come to okay so so

1:12:49

that's the that we're we're at the at

1:12:52

the end really of this one and so I just

1:12:54

wanted to bring it back here it's

1:12:56

changed so much we could started in the

1:12:59

states actually with it in its Proto

1:13:02

form and now and now I just I I've loved

1:13:04

doing it so much and I just wanted to

1:13:06

bring I just like the idea that a

1:13:07

science talk is being given but there

1:13:09

are trucks that have to unload the

1:13:10

staging for it it's Pro it's proper rock

1:13:13

and roll I got Ries I've got everything

1:13:16

do you have a Tor T-shirt with on it

1:13:19

yeah oh yeah all right I should have

1:13:21

brought one to one of those shirts oh my

1:13:23

god oh we've got everything and we've

1:13:24

done so many many shows I I how many it

1:13:26

is 150 200 they don't all fit on one

1:13:29

t-shirt so so we got different t-shirts

1:13:31

for different regions of the the world

1:13:34

physics takes the world uh very good

1:13:36

Brian again thanks for being on the show

1:13:39

this has been an exclusive conversation

1:13:41

between me and my good friend Brian Cox

1:13:44

from the UK who's coming

1:13:46

Stateside with a tour and we're going to

1:13:48

look for the solar system on should be

1:13:51

Rand yeah if does it BBC how many how

1:13:55

many episodes is it five five episodes

1:13:57

we'll look forward all right I this has

1:13:59

been star talk I'm your host Neil

1:14:01

degrass Tyson as always keep looking up

1:14:05

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