[00:00] take me to the frontier of particle
[00:01] physics today there's tremendous
[00:03] progress being it's such an exciting
[00:05] time in fundamental physics not only
[00:08] particle physics but we said
[00:09] gravitational astronomy the exploration
[00:11] of the force of gravity black holes
[00:13] Quantum information Quantum Computing
[00:16] and all sorts all that stuff is is to me
[00:18] utterly fascinating I I think for the
[00:21] first time it's probably true to say in
[00:24] particle physics we don't know if
[00:27] there's anything else just around the
[00:29] corner which is bad you know but it's
[00:32] also it is our duty to find things out
[00:36] about
[00:42] nature this is Star Talk Neil degrass
[00:46] Tyson you're a personal astrophysicist
[00:48] and today we are featuring my exclusive
[00:52] one-on-one interview with my friend and
[00:54] colleague from across the pond Brian Cox
[00:57] Brian welcome hi it's great to be back
[00:59] oh my God gosh oh it's it's been been
[01:01] tooo long yeah and we don't usually get
[01:03] to do it in person it's usually over
[01:05] Zoom or something right let's get some
[01:07] of your biography out there for State
[01:09] Side people who might not fully know who
[01:12] you are uh you cut your teeth as a
[01:15] particle physicist is that correct yeah
[01:17] initially I mean actually my degree is
[01:20] the University of Manchester by the way
[01:21] in the UK I've never left so I started
[01:23] there doing my undergraduate degree
[01:24] postgraduate what do they call you there
[01:26] now you are professor of particle
[01:29] physics at the University of Manchester
[01:30] yeah and Royal
[01:32] Society as in the Royal Society of
[01:34] London yeah Royal Society professor of
[01:36] public engagement in science yeah so
[01:39] we're Kindred Souls across the Atlantic
[01:41] yeah so okay so you never left is that
[01:43] because they wanted you so badly or that
[01:45] no one else wanted you yeah probably the
[01:48] latter but but I started it was actually
[01:51] um physics with astrophysics my degree
[01:53] so I did a degree physics with
[01:54] astrophysics then PhD in particle
[01:57] physics although the first year was I
[02:00] was working on supernova neutrinos so I
[02:03] crossing over in astroparticle physics
[02:05] as we would call it then I got into
[02:07] particle physics went to the daisy
[02:09] laboratory in Hamburg and works on
[02:11] electron proton collisions so called
[02:13] defc scattering I've seen Daisy online
[02:16] I've seen Daisy simulations of things
[02:19] they simulate like colliding black holes
[02:21] and things fascinating Daisy they Dy
[02:24] theut synchron yeah they they have a a
[02:27] public facing platform see I didn't know
[02:31] that I didn't know because the
[02:32] accelerator is no longer operational so
[02:35] but it's a big it's it's a huge lab in
[02:37] Hamburg so I did my PhD there that's in
[02:40] particle physics then moved to fermilab
[02:43] in Chicago for a while and then to CERN
[02:47] when we were Building A Large Hadron
[02:48] Collider and then but I've always
[02:51] Switzerland yes in Geneva and remind me
[02:53] that's Center the European Center for
[02:56] nuclear research research acony French
[03:00] acronymed yeah to because it was founded
[03:03] in the 1950s and at the time so it was
[03:06] it was what part of the Reconstruction
[03:07] of Europe really after the war so it was
[03:10] a that lab was founded I think it's 1954
[03:13] 1953 um and so it was Nuclear Physics at
[03:16] the time there wasn't really such a
[03:17] thing as particle physics I suppose at
[03:18] the time and then and now it's by far
[03:20] the world's largest accelerator particle
[03:23] physics lab yeah I mean the center of
[03:25] mass of that whole world left the United
[03:27] States when we stopped funding our super
[03:30] in Texas yeah the SSC super conducting
[03:33] supering super collider yeah I would
[03:36] have called it the super duper collider
[03:38] that might have kept its funding at that
[03:41] point but uh yeah so Europe still leads
[03:44] the world in in nuclear particle
[03:48] research it's a it's a it's a very
[03:50] International lab I mean it is the
[03:52] world's cider so um so although it's
[03:55] based in Switzerland and France I would
[03:57] say it's a it's a world lab
[04:00] okay that's very diplomatic of you well
[04:02] it certainly is I mean the US have a
[04:03] tremendous presence there for example
[04:05] while you're saying all this to me
[04:07] you're not describing this this branch
[04:11] of your life as a musician so just
[04:13] briefly remind me of that yes so when I
[04:16] was uh 18 so traditionally you would go
[04:18] to university there start a Physics
[04:20] degree but I didn't because I was in a
[04:23] band a rock band that I joined just
[04:25] before I'm sure your parents love that
[04:27] fact no they did actually they they they
[04:29] loved it I could go to college and major
[04:31] in physics or continue with my band oh
[04:34] but do you have that thing like a gap
[04:36] year we call it where you say well I'm
[04:37] going to take a year off the studies
[04:39] before I go to college or university and
[04:41] so I'd said that I'd said I'm going to
[04:42] be in this band and and I'm just going
[04:43] to do it for a year and then I'll go and
[04:45] do physics H but then we got a record
[04:48] deal uh a big record deal with A&M
[04:50] records this is in 1986 1987 it's a long
[04:54] time ago got a big record deal and so we
[04:57] we I came to Los Angeles and recorded an
[05:00] album with uh actually produced by Larry
[05:03] kleene who was married to Joanie
[05:05] Mitchell at the time and so we recorded
[05:08] some of it in Janie Mitchell studio in
[05:10] Los Angeles so and then we toured with
[05:12] uh my first professional gig with that
[05:14] band was with Jimmy Page in Jimmy pagee
[05:18] and did you open for Jimmy Page yeah we
[05:19] open for Jimmy pagee and and Gary Moore
[05:22] who'd also been in the band thing Lizzy
[05:24] and then Europe the The Final Countdown
[05:27] so you know this song The Final
[05:28] Countdown and Carri was a big h here in
[05:30] the US so we opened for them made a
[05:32] couple of albums so I did that basically
[05:34] for five years and it charted uh
[05:37] actually no we we just we did Big Shows
[05:39] it was a rock and roll band and then and
[05:41] then we I left that band um went
[05:45] straight back to Manchester and went to
[05:46] start a Physics degree as one do yes but
[05:49] then in that little Gap that I joined
[05:53] another band who then had some hit
[05:55] records so a band called D this is in
[05:57] the early 90s now and we we they didn't
[06:00] have a record deal when I joined them
[06:01] and they got a record deal as well so
[06:03] when I was at University I was in this
[06:04] band we had a number one hit in the UK
[06:07] and Australia with a song which violates
[06:09] the second law thermodynamics which
[06:11] you'll love call things can only get
[06:12] better which is clearly incorrect
[06:15] certainly things could only get worse
[06:17] globally in the universe exactly so and
[06:21] then so so yeah so I had a two and that
[06:24] song what helped it if I remember
[06:25] correctly some political candidate
[06:28] adopted it their theme song Tony Blair
[06:31] it was very ton Blair yeah it was Tony
[06:32] Blair in
[06:34] 1997 his associated with his election
[06:37] yeah and came back actually into fashion
[06:40] because we just had a a change of
[06:43] administration in the UK and uh that
[06:45] song came up again and it came up and it
[06:48] got quite popular again so I did
[06:49] Glastonbury this year with the band wait
[06:52] that's that huge Place yeah the big
[06:53] Festival yeah that's the hu any huge
[06:57] scene of musicians in the UK is at that
[07:00] location well it's the world I mean it's
[07:02] probably the biggest Festival in the
[07:03] world I would imagine I would guess but
[07:05] it's a huge Festival so you and Brian
[07:08] May those we are the two he did it the
[07:10] other way around though he he so he he
[07:14] got
[07:14] extremely well yeah he he got extremely
[07:17] famous and then finished his PhD in
[07:19] astrophysics yeah okay Brian May good Le
[07:23] guitarist of queen queen yes yeah so
[07:26] let's pick up some of the physics we are
[07:28] both here right now now in Las Vegas uh
[07:32] at
[07:33] a world Skeptics conference yeah yeah uh
[07:37] we we're both Skeptics I mean any
[07:40] scientist is a skeptic but problem is
[07:43] when the world does weird things who's
[07:46] going to put them in check somebody's
[07:49] got to show up at the scene and say no
[07:52] that's not how that works or no the laws
[07:53] of physics prevent that or you so you've
[07:57] you've had to do this in the UK right
[07:59] there's certain resonances between the
[08:02] United States and the UK about how
[08:04] people misthink things so what was your
[08:06] baptism into this world well actually I
[08:09] mean I was only interested in doing
[08:13] research for a long time so I as a
[08:16] postar and that in that part of my
[08:18] career I didn't want to know about
[08:19] anything else other than doing research
[08:21] and that's all I did but um it was uh I
[08:25] can't remember when it was now but there
[08:26] was one of those regular funding crises
[08:28] as you'll know from here in the US when
[08:31] when government support in particular
[08:32] for research dipped and so I got
[08:36] involved in trying to fight that and we
[08:40] realize I mean it's kind of obvious I
[08:42] suppose but we realize that one of the
[08:45] reasons talking to government that they
[08:47] had cut the research budget was that
[08:50] they didn't think anyone cared so they
[08:52] thought it was a simple thing to demy
[08:54] you could just and so we we as a
[08:59] Community we were re-ed we we learned
[09:01] again we've learned over the years but
[09:03] we learned again that popular support
[09:05] popular support uh for for what we do is
[09:09] important and and where does the support
[09:11] comes from it comes from understanding
[09:13] and I could there are many reasons by
[09:15] the way why uh talking to people who are
[09:19] not in science about what we are doing
[09:21] as scientists is important one of them
[09:23] of course is just purely democratizing
[09:26] knowledge it's it we tax payers fund at
[09:30] least in part what we do and therefore
[09:32] they have a right to know so there's
[09:34] that level but on the other level which
[09:36] I think you're suggesting as well um
[09:38] what science does I think it's not it's
[09:42] not about knowing the facts it's not
[09:45] about really it's not about knowing the
[09:46] universe is 13.8 billion years old for
[09:48] example or it's 13.8 billion years since
[09:50] the Big Bang we could talk about that
[09:51] later actually does that mean it had a
[09:53] bite origin in time in the P that anyway
[09:56] but it's not put in that we'll get back
[09:58] to that okay it's not about knowing
[10:00] facts so much
[10:02] as understanding something about the
[10:04] process by which we acquire reliable
[10:06] knowledge about the world and and
[10:09] science is the process by which we
[10:12] acquire reliable knowledge and so I I
[10:14] think that realiz in that on that well
[10:18] it's yeah in the sense I think in the
[10:20] sense that nature is there whether and
[10:26] and it the job of the scientist is to
[10:28] find out how it works and of course as
[10:31] Richard fan and many others are famously
[10:33] said it doesn't care who you are or what
[10:35] your opinion is or how popular you are
[10:37] how many votes you got or anything how
[10:39] much money you've got it doesn't care so
[10:41] in that sense I think it is a unique
[10:43] Pursuit because the the standard by
[10:45] which your opinion is judged is is
[10:49] external to us it's nothing to do with
[10:51] Humanity nature is the ultimate judge
[10:52] jury an executioner so so so I think I
[10:56] became involved initially just on that
[10:58] very narrow idea that we wanted to make
[11:02] sure that people understood what we did
[11:03] and what the value of it is and then
[11:06] that branch that that became bigger and
[11:08] bigger in my career and and Branch
[11:10] Stein's television and and live shows
[11:12] and all sorts of things but it came from
[11:14] that that's I wasn't interested in
[11:18] communicating science I was just
[11:19] interested in doing it for a very long
[11:22] time so you had a certain Duty and
[11:25] responsibility to the world well I think
[11:27] we all do I mean I've realized since
[11:30] that I I think uh actually fan again
[11:34] said it's a very brilliant essay that
[11:36] anyone can download from 1955 I think it
[11:39] is called the value of science it's just
[11:41] four pages and it's there it's on calex
[11:44] archive I think and in there he says
[11:47] that it is our duty as scientists our
[11:49] duty knowing the the great value of he
[11:54] calls it he defines science as a
[11:56] satisfactory philosophy of ignorance
[11:58] which is a beauti
[11:59] just merely satisfactory it's philosophy
[12:01] of ignorance you start out from not
[12:02] knowing and he said and he said the
[12:04] great value of the satisfactory
[12:05] philosophy of ignorance the great value
[12:07] of freedom of thought to Proclaim that
[12:09] freedom and to try to protect it for all
[12:12] coming Generations essentially says at
[12:14] the end so but but I like the framing it
[12:16] is our duty as scientist to do that as
[12:20] well as do our job which is to find
[12:23] things out about nature about the
[12:25] natural world and I uh in this
[12:27] conference I am to bestow upon you the
[12:31] Richard Dawkins award for science and
[12:34] reason bestow bestow yes the Richard
[12:37] Dawkins award is something I won last
[12:39] year and uh I was called back in to
[12:43] bestow it upon
[12:45] you a great honor it is a it will be a
[12:49] delight for me it takes place tonight
[12:51] yeah I look forward to that and just the
[12:54] idea that science and reason is
[12:58] something maybe it's sad that it's
[13:00] something that needs to be
[13:02] rewarded because if it's one of these
[13:04] awards that if the world functioned just
[13:07] right you wouldn't need it and also you
[13:10] know although I said as as fan has said
[13:12] it's it's in in a sense our duty as
[13:14] scientists it is also true that not all
[13:17] scientists want to want to do that or or
[13:20] feel comfortable with it as I said I
[13:22] didn't want to do it um initially now
[13:26] now I very much enjoy it and think it's
[13:27] very important but it so we don't need
[13:30] everybody to to do it but but some
[13:33] people will and that's that's important
[13:35] right discussing big ideas with experts
[13:37] from physicists and biologists to
[13:39] entertainers and politicians is our
[13:41] favorite way to critically explore the
[13:44] world around us and now with spacex's
[13:47] Starship on track to ramp up its
[13:48] launches Elon Musk is turning Visionary
[13:51] ideas into real progress however since
[13:54] his cabinet appointment in Trump's
[13:56] Administration many are wondering about
[13:58] Musk conflicts of interest his influence
[14:00] on policies and more so tracking
[14:03] developments through reliable sources
[14:05] these next four years is absolutely
[14:08] essential something our long-term
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[15:16] let's get back to the show so let's talk
[15:20] physics take me to the frontier of
[15:22] particle physics today what's going on
[15:24] at CERN now that the pigs boan is
[15:28] discovered and the Nobel prizes were
[15:30] granted uh what are they doing now well
[15:33] did they just close shop and go home no
[15:36] I mean what what particle physics is
[15:38] because we're talking about quantum
[15:39] mechanics basically it's statistical in
[15:42] the sense that do you Collide what we do
[15:44] there is Collide protons together at
[15:46] high energy and we Collide a lots of
[15:48] protons together at high energy protons
[15:50] have a charge so that you can put them
[15:53] in a magnetic field and accelerate them
[15:55] yeah to very high speed yeah so so they
[15:57] go so the LHC
[15:59] in kilometers is 27 kilm and that's the
[16:02] number yeah about 60 miles or something
[16:05] like that and uh and the the protons go
[16:08] around that ring uh 11,000 times a
[16:11] second so that's how fast they go that's
[16:13] fast that's
[16:16] 99.999999% the speed of light okay so
[16:19] you you've granted them energy so that
[16:22] when you Collide them you break them
[16:25] apart you're basically deconstructing
[16:28] nature
[16:29] to see what residue comes out of it when
[16:33] I think of doing that for anything else
[16:35] it's going to break right I don't take
[16:37] chairs and slam them together and still
[16:39] have chairs I have a pile
[16:42] of of kindling okay so who ever thought
[16:47] it was a good idea to smash nature into
[16:50] itself well um I suppose ER is
[16:52] Rutherford initially um so we go back to
[16:56] Manchester the turn of the 20th century
[16:59] and Rutherford was using radioactive
[17:02] decay to um essentially produce the
[17:05] particles I mean it's just the the decay
[17:07] of the decay of atomic nuclei that
[17:09] naturally happens to produce high energy
[17:11] particles which he then fired into gold
[17:13] foil and bounced them off the foil in
[17:17] doing that he discovered the atomic
[17:19] nucleus so you one way to think about
[17:22] particle physics is that you when you
[17:24] Collide things together what are you
[17:25] doing you you're really building a
[17:27] microscope one way to think of it is
[17:29] that the higher the energy of the
[17:31] Collision the the faster these things
[17:32] are traveling uh the smaller the the
[17:35] smaller the objects you can see so we
[17:38] were talking about seeing for the first
[17:40] time in those experiments the atomic
[17:42] nucleus and you move forward to the um
[17:46] you well ultimately through the 50s and
[17:48] 60s and we have higher and higher energy
[17:50] collisions you start seeing that the
[17:52] nucleus is made of protons and neutrons
[17:55] and then you start seeing in the 50s and
[17:57] 60s that the protons and neutrons are
[17:58] made of smaller things called quarks and
[18:01] so we discover those that we've not
[18:03] discovered anything smaller than that by
[18:04] the way is it because you don't have
[18:06] enough energy to bust up a quark yes
[18:08] well well or or to resolve what's inside
[18:11] it let's say to build a microscope
[18:13] because right now the inventory of
[18:15] fundamental particles includes quirks
[18:18] yeah so somebody saying that's
[18:19] fundamental which sounds a little like
[18:21] the Greeks saying atoms are fundamental
[18:22] oh no they won't be fundamental you're
[18:24] absolutely right but uh but they look
[18:26] Point like from the the point view from
[18:29] the energies that we can generate today
[18:31] but that that's one side of particle
[18:33] physics so we've been exploring the
[18:34] structure of matter which is
[18:36] historically you know it goes back to
[18:38] Rutherford I suppose and again you have
[18:40] confidence that when you break matter
[18:42] apart you didn't break the matter you're
[18:46] just deconstructing it yeah you you're
[18:49] it really I think the way to think about
[18:50] it when you think about what a collision
[18:52] is so let's say you Collide as we did at
[18:55] in my PhD electrons and protons together
[18:59] so you get an electron beam and a proton
[19:01] beam and you smash them into each other
[19:02] what's actually happening what's
[19:04] actually happening is one way that the
[19:07] Collision can happen is that the
[19:08] electron can emit a photon which is a
[19:11] particle of light and the particle of
[19:13] light goes and and and it hits the pH
[19:15] the proton now the the wavelength of
[19:18] that light which is which telling you
[19:20] how small a thing you can see is
[19:24] proportional to the energy of the thing
[19:25] that's how hard we're smashing the
[19:27] things together so the
[19:29] together yeah so faster you smash
[19:31] together the higher the energy the
[19:32] smaller the the smaller the things that
[19:35] you can see so so that's a way of
[19:37] thinking about particle collision so it
[19:39] really is a microscope in that sense
[19:41] that analogy works I'm just thinking if
[19:43] I were a proton I wouldn't want to be
[19:44] busted apart into quirks that would not
[19:47] be a nice day for me in some ways I
[19:49] suppose it's like having it's kind of
[19:51] like having an x-ray I suppose isn't it
[19:53] you're right though you hit them hard
[19:54] enough and they fall to bits but that
[19:56] would be the same for you would so
[19:59] but we we would try not to hit ex what
[20:01] the bits that I fell into no one's
[20:03] considered them
[20:04] fundamental bits of Neil but right but
[20:07] the other way to think about particle
[20:09] physics which is I think so you say the
[20:11] higs particle you mentioned so that's
[20:13] not in the proton you're not you're not
[20:15] smashing the things together and finding
[20:17] a higs particle buried in there
[20:18] somewhere the other side is really so
[20:21] you think of Einstein's famous equation
[20:23] eal mc^2 so energy and mass are
[20:26] interchangeable let's put it like that
[20:28] so it also says that if we have loads of
[20:30] energy in these collisions then we can
[20:32] make new particles that are extremely
[20:35] massive much more massive that would
[20:37] come spontaneously out of the available
[20:38] energy that would otherwise be doing
[20:40] nothing so so we have when you Collide
[20:43] protons together these energies you have
[20:46] plenty of energy there to make a higs
[20:50] particle for example or a top quar which
[20:53] is a very heavy particle as well far
[20:55] more massive than the protons so so
[20:58] that's I suppose the way to think about
[21:00] trying to manufacture higs particles so
[21:02] you can observe them you need enough
[21:04] energy to make them so you're not just
[21:06] buing them apart you're creating an
[21:08] opportunity to view more massive
[21:11] particles than would otherwise be
[21:12] available to you yeah and the other
[21:14] thing to say so to get a complete
[21:16] picture is these very massive things
[21:17] like higs particles um they they have a
[21:21] very short lifetime so you make them and
[21:24] they Decay away into lighter particles
[21:26] very very fast so you don't see the higs
[21:28] particles what you see the the debris
[21:31] from the decay of the higs particle and
[21:33] the the the the challenge of particle
[21:35] physics is to get detect all those bits
[21:38] that came off basically and by the way
[21:40] you also have the bits of the protons
[21:42] that all got smashed up as well so it's
[21:43] a big mess and we have more
[21:46] than these these it's very hard because
[21:49] you don't only have one proton Collision
[21:52] per we we we send the particles around
[21:55] in little bunches basically so you can
[21:57] get 10 20 30 collisions at the same time
[22:00] only one of them on a very good day will
[22:02] be an interesting one and and then so
[22:05] you've got to sift through all this
[22:06] which is the the the difficulty or the
[22:09] professional challenge let's say of
[22:10] particle physics with that reasoning
[22:12] there's always some next energy level
[22:15] that you haven't visited yes where more
[22:17] and interesting physics can reveal
[22:19] itself and this is where it gets um
[22:21] challenging at the moment because so the
[22:24] the so-called standard model higs
[22:26] particle and I should just that for a
[22:29] minute that that thing the existence of
[22:31] this thing was predicted in the 1960s by
[22:33] Peter higs and others and um it was a
[22:38] suggestion a theory a guess let's say at
[22:40] the time mathematically motivated almost
[22:43] purely by the way mathematically
[22:45] motivated of how things get mass in the
[22:48] universe at the most fundamental level
[22:51] how the quarks and the these these very
[22:54] heavy things called the w and z bosons
[22:56] that how how those things got m
[22:59] um and so it was a a mathematical
[23:01] construct it predicted that there should
[23:04] be in the simplest case one this thing
[23:07] the higs Bose on but there could be more
[23:10] complicated versions and so we knew that
[23:15] if we collided protons together at the
[23:17] energies that we generate at the large
[23:19] handron collider then we would either
[23:22] discover the higs BOS on and prove this
[23:25] Theory to be correct or we knew that if
[23:28] it wasn't there we would see something
[23:30] else so we had a very clear idea from
[23:34] experiment and theory that we were going
[23:36] to discover something with that machine
[23:38] and you don't know what it is it turned
[23:40] out it was the simplest thing it was
[23:42] this thing that Peter higs had had
[23:44] dreamt of for all those years ago which
[23:46] is astonishing by the way 50 years after
[23:49] the prediction and there's there's a
[23:51] great essay that you might know by
[23:52] Eugene vigner called the unreasonable
[23:54] effectiveness of mathematics physical
[23:56] sciences I think that's the one of the
[23:58] best examples it's an astonishing
[24:00] achievement that we got it right and so
[24:03] so we discover the higs Bo on to put
[24:06] Precision on that that winer's the point
[24:09] in that paper it's not that math in a
[24:12] vacuum no pun intended makes discoveries
[24:16] it's the
[24:17] mathematical representation of a
[24:20] physical idea yeah and then you pursue
[24:23] the
[24:25] math and it applies to the universe but
[24:28] only if the physical idea
[24:32] is has captured reality in some
[24:35] fundamental way although the what it was
[24:37] I think the it was a a very a very
[24:40] mathematical framework which became the
[24:41] standard model of particle physics based
[24:44] on ideas of symmetries and all sorts of
[24:46] beautiful ideas which which really did
[24:49] have mathematical foundations so there's
[24:51] an aesthetic sense I think built into
[24:54] that model and that would be the pure
[24:56] mathematical see I'm you know my people
[24:59] in astrophysics we have enough
[25:01] embarrassing historical examples of
[25:06] chasing know elegance and Kepler Kepler
[25:09] I'm saying look at Kepler but the I I
[25:12] think the genius of Kepler he had these
[25:14] platonic solids in these ideas right
[25:16] he's got the pyramid and the cube and
[25:18] the this and then he rejected it Based
[25:20] on data yes in 16 but his his first
[25:24] thought was the universe is beautiful
[25:27] and divine and perfect and these solids
[25:30] are perfect planets are in the universe
[25:32] so it must be a connection he spent 10
[25:34] years looking at it yeah and but then
[25:36] but then he rejected it and then the
[25:38] laws of planetary motion which which are
[25:40] indicative of a very beautiful thing
[25:42] which is Newton's law of gravitation an
[25:43] inverse Square law and so there is a
[25:46] there's a beauty underlying it but only
[25:48] after he had to scrap this other beauty
[25:50] that he had presumed it would be that's
[25:52] why we we step lightly when someone says
[25:55] I have this beautiful idea yeah okay
[25:57] let's hear it but but it is true that
[26:00] and I think it's one of the great
[26:02] Mysteries that that that there is um
[26:05] historically Einstein's theory general
[26:07] relativity is another example where
[26:09] where a quest for Simplicity and beauty
[26:11] and elegance which are judgments right
[26:14] the human judgments has led to very very
[26:18] precise models of the way that nature
[26:19] Works given that CERN which has the
[26:22] large hyron collider
[26:24] LHC discovered the higs boson if you to
[26:28] discover more particles presumably you
[26:30] have to keep sort of upgrading the
[26:33] system as the LHC was compared to what
[26:35] was there before so that you can ever
[26:39] with ever greater force bust into the
[26:42] particles and see what's lurking so we
[26:45] can't increase the energy of the LHC
[26:48] very easily so or even easily or we
[26:51] can't really so that that would be a
[26:54] major change to the machine but what we
[26:57] can do and are doing is so-called High
[27:00] Luminosity upgrades which means you
[27:03] Collide more protons together and the
[27:05] thing about um so then you win on the
[27:08] statistics of the partical physics is
[27:10] it's a quantum mechanics and so things
[27:12] happen statistically so so it's you know
[27:15] one in I don't know the numbers off to
[27:17] my one in 10 billion collisions you'll
[27:19] produce something like interesting a
[27:21] higs it's less than that but um so so
[27:24] when when giving yourself more
[27:26] collisions gives you
[27:28] more chance to discover new particles
[27:32] and it gives you more particles like
[27:34] higs bosons to explore if you get a higs
[27:37] particle after however many collisions
[27:40] and that's kind of rare if you have more
[27:43] collisions you'll get more higs yeah to
[27:45] improve your statistics on what the hell
[27:47] the higs is yeah because we want to know
[27:49] but then there could be a reaction
[27:52] that's even rarer to manifest than the
[27:55] higs and if your sample wasn't large
[27:57] enough you would just never go there yes
[27:58] you wouldn't see it if you just made one
[28:01] thing one particle you know what one
[28:04] whatever it is the higs prime whatever
[28:07] if you made one of those then you
[28:09] wouldn't see it if you made one of
[28:11] them superhero Nemesis I'm higs Prime
[28:14] you know I've come toy by the way and we
[28:17] do look for those things Zed Prime the
[28:19] zos on we look for the Z primes because
[28:21] they can be signatures of extra
[28:22] dimensions in the universe by the way so
[28:23] we look for this stuff but the point is
[28:25] that if something is very very rare
[28:28] then you you won't really see it if you
[28:31] just make one or two of them you need to
[28:32] make hundreds or thousands or whatever
[28:34] it is to see them yeah it's like how
[28:35] many people have to live in a city
[28:37] before you stumble on someone who's
[28:39] seven feet tall yeah that's statistic
[28:41] statistically you yeah you need so
[28:45] possibly Millions yeah so so the
[28:47] upgrades are the the upgrades that we
[28:49] can do and it's you have to upgrade the
[28:50] detectors the cameras that we use as
[28:52] well as the machine okay so you kept the
[28:54] same hole in the ground yeah yeah
[28:56] because we don't want to dig another one
[28:57] of those or change other magnets around
[28:59] which are very expensive does that hole
[29:01] go through more than one country or is
[29:02] it all contain intland France and
[29:03] Switzerland wow okay yeah most of it's
[29:05] in France actually oh didn't know only a
[29:07] little bit of it's in Switzerland okay
[29:10] so that's one thing and and the other
[29:12] thing is this higs that we've discovered
[29:15] that this the question Still Remains is
[29:17] it the the simplest one the standard
[29:20] model higs called or is it something
[29:23] more complicated how does it behave so
[29:25] the analogy in in in planetary science
[29:27] would be yeah we discovered a moon and
[29:29] so you go great then you would like to
[29:31] know about the moon you don't want to
[29:33] just say we've discovered this moon it's
[29:34] a DOT that's fine as you said they're
[29:37] interest want characterize it in
[29:39] whatever way you can for that you need a
[29:41] lot of them to to observe so so so it's
[29:45] it's exciting that but and it's
[29:48] challenging because I I think for the
[29:50] first time it's probably true to say in
[29:52] particle physics we don't know if
[29:55] there's anything else just around the
[29:57] corner
[29:58] which is bad you know but it's also good
[30:02] I suppose it's just science I mean
[30:03] ultimately it's neither bad nor good
[30:05] it's the way nature is that's that's
[30:07] what triggers whatever next round of
[30:09] physics is complete yeah you know you
[30:11] get PE you get those people that show up
[30:13] and say there's nothing left in physics
[30:15] to discover well they be they show up
[30:18] every few decad so utterly wrong that
[30:20] they're not even
[30:21] worth I mean you know there's tremendous
[30:24] progress being it's such an exciting
[30:26] time in fundamental physics mhm at the
[30:28] moment that uh particle physics not only
[30:32] particle physics but we said
[30:34] gravitational
[30:35] astronomy the the the exploration of the
[30:37] force of gravity black holes Quantum
[30:40] information which is related to Quantum
[30:43] Computing and also all that stuff is is
[30:45] to me utterly fascinating there's some
[30:48] really interesting I read some stuff the
[30:51] other day which I don't fully understand
[30:53] actually um some of the progress in
[30:55] string theory it's interesting because
[30:58] just as an decide it's linking it seems
[31:01] to me it's linking one of the great
[31:03] Mysteries which is the so-called
[31:04] cosmological constant so the fact that
[31:06] we observed that the universe is
[31:09] accelerating in its expansion and Nobel
[31:11] Prize has been given for the observation
[31:13] not for the understanding yes he a
[31:15] friend of mine who by the way didn't
[31:17] believe his he he didn't believe it when
[31:20] he saw it because it wasn't in the air
[31:22] this idea he was looking at light from
[31:23] Supernova super I'm on I'm on a paper
[31:27] with briyan Schmidt yeah I I'm like very
[31:29] minor author uh you have to scroll down
[31:32] and then like my name is in the super
[31:34] NOA yeah but it was it was it was
[31:36] analysis of high red ship supern noi
[31:38] yeah and I I totally enjoyed that work
[31:41] but he obviously went on and made an
[31:42] entire sort of yeah branch of his career
[31:45] on it so there's this remarkable idea
[31:48] that which comes from that which is
[31:50] which is in Einstein's theory this idea
[31:53] that you can you can have a kind of
[31:55] energy in the universe let's say or a
[31:57] thing whatever it is because we don't
[31:58] know what it is but something that makes
[32:00] the universe that the rate the the space
[32:02] stretches increase which is uh so that
[32:06] that's there and it's observed it's one
[32:08] of the great Mysteries because it's I
[32:10] think it's the smallest number in all of
[32:14] physics by what is it it's something
[32:17] like a 10 the^ minus 122 or something in
[32:22] appropriate units right which is
[32:24] absolutely ridiculously so so it's a
[32:26] tiny tiny tiny tiny thing that's causing
[32:29] this rate of expansion um but it's not
[32:33] zero and so the question becomes why is
[32:35] it tiny the the why is it tiny and not
[32:37] zero yeah yeah and and so because if it
[32:39] were even slightly bigger we wouldn't be
[32:41] here so the universe would have been
[32:42] blown apart so it seems very unusual but
[32:45] I I saw the other week or the other day
[32:48] actually that there's some research
[32:49] that's linking that in in a in a in the
[32:52] framework of a string theory uh or M
[32:55] Theory to uh matter so so so there
[33:01] there's a kind of an idea that if you
[33:02] fix that you get a prediction out that
[33:05] there should be um dark matter but it
[33:08] turns out it's to do with extra
[33:09] dimensions and gravitons in extra
[33:11] dimensions and things so it's it's quite
[33:13] but it's quite interesting so I think
[33:15] there there are some very interesting
[33:17] areas of string theory where progress is
[33:19] being made quite remarkably do string
[33:21] theorist need a fuller or better
[33:24] inventory of particles so for example
[33:26] are we still looking for a gravit
[33:28] are we still looking for you know every
[33:31] you shake a stick and there's a
[33:32] physicist proposing a hypothetical
[33:35] particle to explain Dark Matter to
[33:37] explain wouldn't it be cool if the Dark
[33:39] Matter were related to gravitons which
[33:42] is that this is not my field I only
[33:44] heard of it the other day but it sounded
[33:47] interesting but it just shows you that
[33:48] we so to go back the to to
[33:52] LHC um we have the higs particle as you
[33:56] said um we had expected I would say most
[34:00] particle physicists expected there would
[34:02] be other particles discovered there's a
[34:04] particular that same experiment yeah LC
[34:07] so there's a particular Theory which
[34:08] which motivated by String Theory a long
[34:10] time ago called super symmetry which is
[34:13] a a property of the universe we we we
[34:16] it's been around for many decades and it
[34:18] came initially
[34:20] from either from String Theory are from
[34:22] some other is it got Incorporated in I
[34:24] can't remember historically which way it
[34:26] came but it's um
[34:28] but it's it essentially predicts that
[34:30] there are double the number of particles
[34:32] that we see fundamental particles at
[34:34] this energy so so we and they would have
[34:37] been great candidates for dark matter by
[34:39] the way which is astrophysical
[34:41] Discovery so we should say I suppose the
[34:44] one the one sentence description the
[34:45] dark matter is that we see the the the
[34:48] universe there's far much more ma matter
[34:50] in the universe than we can see see I I
[34:52] would put it differently yeah I would
[34:54] say there's far it's not dark matter
[34:58] it's dark gravity well you say matter we
[35:01] don't know what we don't know what it is
[35:02] well true so so you see it through its
[35:04] gravitational inter so it's dark gravity
[35:06] yeah we don't see otherwise you get
[35:09] newspaper headlines say oh uh we must
[35:12] abandon our ideas of Dark Matter well if
[35:15] it's not matter it's still there okay
[35:17] it's misnamed yes I see what you mean I
[35:19] mean I I I that's a cool newspaper by
[35:22] the way that would have a headline like
[35:24] that it goes there at all she usually
[35:25] about a football player and so I'm on
[35:28] board with that newspaper yeah I'm just
[35:30] saying if we don't know what it is we
[35:31] had no business calling it matter at all
[35:34] so the thing to say though is dark
[35:35] Gravity the best which sounds cool so
[35:38] you build model you build models and it
[35:40] is true that the best model that fits
[35:43] all the data which is not just the way
[35:44] that gravit that that galaxies rotate
[35:47] and and Collide and and the way that
[35:49] gravities galaxies kind of lens light
[35:52] and all those things but also the cosmic
[35:54] microwave background radiation which is
[35:56] the oldest light in the universe and and
[35:57] how that worked and how the ripples the
[35:59] sound waves went through the early
[36:01] universe and all that you put it all
[36:03] together and and it it fits if you have
[36:05] a a light a lsh particle that does not
[36:09] interact with light but interacts weakly
[36:12] so this would be another category of
[36:15] particle in the particle soup yeah that
[36:18] has gravity but doesn't interact
[36:20] electromagnetically or only very weakly
[36:22] and so just it's all right so that
[36:25] that's a model though you're right so
[36:26] that's a model which is kind of I would
[36:28] said the Baseline model the people
[36:31] assume that and I don't have a problem
[36:33] with it but if anything happens to that
[36:37] model it gets shown it can't be true
[36:39] people oh then there is no dark matter
[36:41] no there's still dark it is a
[36:43] measurement in the universe we just
[36:45] misnamed it yeah I agree the measurement
[36:47] is just galaxies spin round too fast but
[36:50] too fast there it is or the way they
[36:51] Collide and and so on there's quite a
[36:54] lot of independent measurements of this
[36:56] thing so tell me about Gra I mean is
[36:58] that a real particle I think most
[36:59] physicists would say that quantum
[37:01] mechanics requires is is the base is the
[37:05] base
[37:06] Theory I think the reason I'm careful is
[37:09] because there is some people who would
[37:10] say general relativity is is a thing
[37:12] space time is a real thing and all that
[37:14] but but I think generally most people
[37:16] would say quantum mechanics is
[37:17] underlining and that that would if you
[37:19] have an interaction in other words
[37:20] quantum physics is foundational yeah to
[37:23] the universe in ways that even general
[37:25] relativity would not be yeah so we we
[37:27] talk about this later but the idea that
[37:29] space and time or space time emerge from
[37:33] a quantum theory is very fashionable at
[37:36] the moment partly because of the study
[37:38] of black holes so we could talk about
[37:39] that but so so given that then you so I
[37:43] I should say just for people who are
[37:45] watching and listening that um so how
[37:47] would we picture the electromagnetic
[37:49] force in particle physics so you know
[37:51] that if you put like charges together
[37:53] they repel and and so on so so what's
[37:56] happening there or if you bring magnets
[37:58] together right they repel each other
[37:59] everybody knows if the North Pole
[38:01] together and they repel so what's
[38:03] happening in particle physics terms you
[38:06] you picture that as the exchange of a
[38:08] photon it's a particle of light goes
[38:11] from one particle to the other and
[38:12] essentially carries the force so that's
[38:15] that's what our particle physicist would
[38:17] picture a that force all forces have we
[38:22] successfully applied that to gravity no
[38:24] so that's the point so so so so but you
[38:28] the give me a more resonant no the very
[38:31] the very
[38:32] strong I suppose I'm trying to find the
[38:34] right word for it I think it's that's
[38:36] why I said conviction it's almost I
[38:38] don't know if any physicists who would
[38:39] disagree with because if you can't fold
[38:41] it into the quantum world you don't
[38:45] really have a right to start looking for
[38:47] a graviton because you're going to say
[38:49] the graviton is the mediating particle
[38:51] yes so it's the way the photon is the
[38:53] med particle so and that's um I I think
[38:56] I don't think you'd find anyone who
[38:58] would disagree with that statement okay
[39:00] although I don't think you would
[39:03] although it is true to say that because
[39:05] gravity is so weak so this is the other
[39:07] thing to say it is tremendously weak
[39:10] compared to the other three forces of
[39:12] nature of which electrom magnetism is
[39:14] one here I tell people you've surely
[39:16] done this in class they say how weak is
[39:17] gravity well I can pick something up off
[39:20] the floor against the wishes of Earth
[39:22] exactly yeah yeah the whole earth is
[39:24] pulling on this ball and I can just pick
[39:27] it up off and and kick kick it and
[39:29] you're using electromagnetism that's
[39:31] what's happening so your muscles and all
[39:33] that thing so this is all
[39:34] electromagnetic force which completely
[39:36] destroys as you said the gravitational
[39:37] force um but gravity is only additive so
[39:42] it only adds up in the universe so is a
[39:44] do is the dominant force on Cosmic
[39:46] distance scales that's the point about
[39:49] gravity here's a calculation I haven't
[39:50] verified but it sounded legit uh very
[39:53] verifiable I just never I was too lazy
[39:55] that uh if you take like the space
[39:58] shuttle in its Glory Days and you take
[40:00] one remove the electrons from one cubic
[40:04] centimeter in the nose of the main tank
[40:09] and take all those electrons and put it
[40:11] at the base of the Launchpad it could
[40:13] would not be able to launch the
[40:15] attraction between the electrons at the
[40:17] base of the launch pad and the net
[40:19] positive charge at the top right yeah is
[40:21] enough to prevent it from launching yeah
[40:24] that's a cool idea I could see that that
[40:26] would be yeah yeah actually would yeah
[40:29] borrow a whole so it probably yeah it's
[40:32] not a realistic experiment but to get
[40:36] some sense of the forces involved yeah
[40:38] that's a really nice okay so gravity is
[40:39] weak that somehow bails you out of this
[40:41] problem well it just means that you
[40:43] can't we don't have experimental access
[40:45] to them okay because it's so weak I
[40:48] agree so whereas we do have experimental
[40:50] access to photons yeah unless you could
[40:54] potentially have access if there were
[40:57] extra dimensions in the universe that
[40:59] are configured in the right way
[41:01] physicist always throwing in extra
[41:02] Dimensions whenever you need it you know
[41:05] it is interesting though that that
[41:06] string theory Works in 10 dimensions and
[41:10] only 10 Dimensions mathematically so
[41:14] that's um an interesting observation
[41:16] right so I don't I don't I don't have
[41:18] the background to be an authentic drink
[41:21] Theory skeptic but I know physicists who
[41:24] are and so I don't yeah I think there I
[41:27] mean it depends I think it depends what
[41:29] you mean by String Theory I mean there
[41:31] was that if you go back you know a few
[41:34] decades you talk to Brian Green for
[41:35] example and when he started working in
[41:37] this area he would he's a friend of Star
[41:39] Talk he been onest several times he
[41:40] would have um it's great but the elegant
[41:43] universe is a beautiful description of
[41:44] string theory and and so I think the
[41:46] idea initially with the Hope was that
[41:48] you'd have a theory and you could write
[41:50] it down it's a theory of everything and
[41:52] it would predict the universe as we see
[41:53] it and then you go home and done and I
[41:55] think that's gone as a as an idea but
[41:59] the the the the basic idea of these I
[42:02] mean why is it called string theory is
[42:04] because particles are not point likee
[42:06] the these strings are like little string
[42:08] little loops and and but that idea I
[42:12] think is still at the foundation of most
[42:15] modern theoretical physics in this area
[42:17] but it's got much more complicated and
[42:20] it's been much harder I think the
[42:22] initial idea that you could just predict
[42:23] everything from one number maybe has
[42:25] gone away one simple equation on one
[42:27] line but there is tremendous progress
[42:30] being made in in string theory so it's
[42:33] it's it's not gone away it's just become
[42:35] more complicated I would say well thanks
[42:36] for catching me up on this I at this
[42:39] conference you're giving a a talk on
[42:41] black holes yeah and there was some
[42:43] recent announcement the biggest jet from
[42:44] a black hole ever discovered ever yeah
[42:47] ever uh I I when I was asked about it by
[42:52] the Press I simply said there's always a
[42:55] biggest jet in the universe and so now
[42:57] this one is that the A380 okay airb A380
[43:02] it's a fantastic a did I under sell the
[43:07] significance of this huge jet so what if
[43:10] it's the biggest one unless there's some
[43:12] interesting physics that's coming out of
[43:14] it the area that I have I share a PhD
[43:17] student who's working in the area is
[43:19] more is more theoretical it's about
[43:20] Quantum information the way the
[43:22] information behaves inside and outside
[43:24] of black hole what happens to things
[43:26] that fall in but um in terms of the
[43:29] astrophysical work that if you go back
[43:32] you know not long ago we didn't really
[43:35] have any observation of how uh things
[43:38] behave in the vicinity of black holes
[43:40] and so I would put it in that box we've
[43:42] got several observations now we've got
[43:44] the radio telescope observations from
[43:45] The Event Horizon collaboration that are
[43:47] shown us how the magnetic fields work
[43:49] for example around the the the black
[43:51] hole in the Milky Way we've got these
[43:53] Jets which are giving you access to the
[43:55] magnetic structure presumably in the way
[43:57] that they thank you for putting it in
[43:58] that context now I can understand it
[44:00] broadens the astrophysical data set yeah
[44:03] on which we
[44:04] can sharpen our hypotheses for what's
[44:07] going on yeah because they're hard
[44:08] things to observe and of course you
[44:10] can't observe the interior because it's
[44:12] inside this thing called The Event
[44:13] Horizon but what you can do and we are
[44:15] doing is observe the way that material
[44:18] behaves in the vicinity of them or what
[44:21] the other remarkable thing we've been
[44:23] able to do in the last few years is
[44:24] watch them Collide and see how the
[44:27] ripples in the fabric of the universe
[44:29] come out and we can detect those ripples
[44:31] so all these things are allowing us to
[44:33] probe these objects by and it's worth
[44:36] remembering that they were present they
[44:39] were
[44:40] described um non-spinning ones were
[44:43] described fully by the work that Carl
[44:46] swell did in in
[44:48] 1916 so months after Einstein had
[44:51] published the theory of general
[44:52] relativity he didn't know it at the time
[44:55] but his the the mathematical descrip
[44:57] description he found which describes how
[44:59] space and time are distorted in the
[45:01] presence of a star a non-spinning star
[45:04] is kind of important um those those
[45:07] fully describe a black hole that isn't
[45:09] spinning remember correctly uh he would
[45:12] die in the first World War I don't think
[45:13] he made it out of the war no he died in
[45:15] 1916 so shortly after not not in action
[45:19] he not in action okay I think he died
[45:21] from dis diseases that it was on the
[45:23] Russian front okay it was yeah so War
[45:27] related but not I think it was you would
[45:29] argue War related uh yeah so we've got
[45:31] you know more than a century of
[45:34] mathematical foundation for this yeah
[45:35] and then you go forward to with no data
[45:38] no data no and then then then so it
[45:40] takes another 50 years by the way for
[45:42] someone to work out what it looks like
[45:43] for a spinning one which is Roy Kerr
[45:46] it's a famous ker solution but those two
[45:50] solutions there they're in Einstein's
[45:52] theory in some in a sense um and they
[45:55] describe the black ho but um observing
[45:59] them is something that we haven't been
[46:01] able to do till recently so so in
[46:03] multi-wave lengths as well yeah so so
[46:05] now we have radio observations the
[46:07] gravitational wave observations I'll
[46:09] I'll be a little kinder to that well
[46:11] because it's the way the thing is you as
[46:14] you said right at the start science is
[46:16] about yes having ideas building theories
[46:19] and so on but it's it's really
[46:21] fundamentally about testing those
[46:23] theories yeah and so we can talk about
[46:25] these theoretical object Jacks black
[46:27] holes but really and they are rich
[46:30] theoretically But ultimately you've got
[46:32] to make observations and that's where
[46:34] these Jets and and seeing how material
[46:36] behaves it gives you access to the
[46:37] magnetic fields and how the thing's
[46:39] spinning and what it's that that's
[46:41] important hey Star Talk fans I don't
[46:44] know if you know this but the audio
[46:46] version of the podcast actually posts a
[46:49] week in advance of the video version and
[46:53] you can get that in Spotify and apple
[46:56] podcast and
[46:57] most other podcast Outlets that are out
[47:00] there multiple ways to ingest all that
[47:04] is Cosmic on Star talk let's talk about
[47:06] your work with the public you you said
[47:10] earlier
[47:11] you you share this commitment that binan
[47:16] declared duty to bring science to the
[47:19] public you you don't you not only talk
[47:22] the talk you walk the walk and you have
[47:24] spillage everywhere you know you get
[47:27] given tours Public tours in in in
[47:29] Australia across Europe uh and if I
[47:33] remember correctly you're coming back to
[47:35] the United States next spring to give a
[47:37] tour across the country yeah yeah it's a
[47:39] tour that um that that's been going on
[47:41] for quite a long time it wasn't meant to
[47:43] really but we've ended
[47:44] up playing to over 400,000 people across
[47:48] the world with this tour wait wait wait
[47:49] you're not a musician you say playing
[47:51] get your vocabulary I'm look I'm rock
[47:54] and roll basically I always been so when
[47:57] when
[47:58] we we have five trucks and two tour
[48:01] buses it's brilliant so I'm reliving My
[48:03] Life as a so did I see a version of that
[48:05] when you came to the city yeah it was
[48:06] very early on just after it was just
[48:08] after yeah you have these screens that
[48:10] interlock and then the whole stage is is
[48:13] yeah and that was a very early iteration
[48:16] of this and so it's changed a lot before
[48:18] I laid it to rest this tour and develop
[48:20] another one I wanted to bring it back
[48:22] here in the form that it is now which is
[48:25] so radically different from what and and
[48:27] it's you celebrating the universe with
[48:30] and for the it is and the public it also
[48:33] morphed into there's a version that I do
[48:36] with the symphony orchestra which is
[48:38] great fun so we did it at Sydney offer
[48:40] house actually initially um last year
[48:43] and it's a big Orchestra because it's 90
[48:46] piece Symphony Orchestra because of the
[48:48] music that that I chose and so the The
[48:52] Reason by the way as a slight digression
[48:55] it's part of this tour the classical
[48:57] music is a big part of the tour so it
[48:59] starts with calus's Fifth Symphony third
[49:01] movement and that was because a
[49:02] conductor friend of mine called Daniel
[49:03] Harding I said to him what should
[49:05] Stanley cubric have used in 2001 as a
[49:08] joke like what should he have used we
[49:10] immediately said seus Fifth Symphony and
[49:12] it is it was written in 19 uh 15 same
[49:15] year that general relativity was
[49:17] published but it's the basis of almost
[49:19] every science fiction theme you've ever
[49:21] heard you hear it's beautiful and and uh
[49:25] so the idea
[49:27] which I've always strongly believed but
[49:28] it came to my mind as I was doing this
[49:30] tour is that what what if we're talking
[49:33] about deeper philosophical questions
[49:34] which are raised by cosmology I say
[49:37] right at the start what does it mean to
[49:40] live a finite fragile life in an
[49:41] infinite Eternal Universe right is it
[49:43] because it and and I say of course I
[49:46] don't know the answer to that do that
[49:47] uplift people or depress them well but
[49:49] but it's that as you know the moment you
[49:51] contemplate the Scale of the Universe
[49:53] and I should say we don't know whether
[49:55] it's infinite we don't know whether it's
[49:57] Eternal right but but it could well be
[49:58] infinite and eternal for all purposes it
[50:01] kind of is right on a human to a human
[50:03] scale yeah so so the immediately when
[50:06] you contemplate the size and scale of
[50:08] the universe you ask questions about our
[50:10] place and quite vividly what does it
[50:13] mean to live these little finite fragile
[50:15] lives and so I think I try to approach
[50:19] those questions and you realize or I
[50:21] realize that there are other lights you
[50:23] can shine on that problem and science is
[50:25] a necessary bright and Vivid light that
[50:28] casts a very well delineated Shadow
[50:30] which is given us some obviously it's
[50:32] the framework within which we operate
[50:34] but there are other lights so I you
[50:37] realize that Mara for example so we use
[50:39] Mara in in the classical concerts Mara
[50:42] thought a lot about what it means to
[50:44] live a finite fragile life and he gave a
[50:46] very eloquent answer many eloquent
[50:49] answers in his Symphonies and he was
[50:50] once asked by the way uh what what are
[50:52] you trying to say what what's this
[50:54] answer and he said well if I if I could
[50:56] say it I would wouldn't have written the
[50:57] music good answer you have this music
[50:59] love that so so the music so the
[51:02] composers that I chose and that part
[51:04] they are in the the tour that we're
[51:06] going to do NE this coming year NE next
[51:10] April 2025 um they're in there as music
[51:14] the the composers were chosen because
[51:16] they explored this question and gave
[51:18] very eloquent answers the the so so it's
[51:21] it adds to I think the more
[51:24] philosophical exploration of the
[51:26] questions that raised by the signs
[51:27] what's the name of the tour called
[51:29] Horizons Horizons that's easy enough to
[51:32] remember okay very cool but there's a
[51:34] lot of black holes in it as well I
[51:35] should say so it's an exploration of of
[51:38] the ideas that I find black is a horizon
[51:40] of its own they have Horizons yes but
[51:42] but but also life in the universe the
[51:44] origin evolution of Life speculations on
[51:46] we could talk about speculations on how
[51:48] many civilizations there might be as a
[51:51] guest well this thing about life in the
[51:53] universe you've done many many uh TV
[51:56] series
[51:57] and most recently one on the solar
[52:00] system yeah where the search for life is
[52:04] a main theme well yeah we just saw as we
[52:07] speak last week the Europa Clipper
[52:08] spacecraft was launched yes on the way
[52:10] to Europa we have an entire show devoted
[52:13] just to that we visited the jet
[52:14] propulsion labs and saw felt the
[52:17] excitement of everyone there it's great
[52:19] isn't it it's the first spacecraft I've
[52:20] seen major spacecraft being built so I
[52:23] saw the Clipper and the thing is the
[52:25] scale of that thing it's it's the
[52:27] largest spacecraft isn't it that's ever
[52:28] been sent into well if you add the so
[52:31] the most massive here's it may be but
[52:34] there's another important fact solar
[52:36] panels have gotten more efficient in the
[52:38] day back if you were going to explore
[52:40] beyond the asteroid belt you couldn't
[52:43] use solar panels the intensity of the
[52:45] sun wasn't high enough this one has a
[52:47] very Deployable large solar panel
[52:50] that'll help it along without having to
[52:52] rely entirely on the on the nuclear
[52:55] Decay PL
[52:57] yeah so it's a huge spacecraft and the
[53:00] point is that Europa Jupiter's moon is a
[53:04] prime candidate for for a habitable
[53:06] world in the what we know almost
[53:10] certainly I'm always the people who I
[53:12] know work on the mission say don't say
[53:14] we know we we're almost sure there's a
[53:17] saltwater ocean below the surface I
[53:19] think it's pretty indisputable now so
[53:21] pretty sure it's there yeah but whatever
[53:23] is the skepticism what would it be were
[53:25] it not a glal ocean yeah it's very
[53:27] difficult to because and that's from
[53:29] many measurements made amonia I mean
[53:31] there's not you know water molecule is
[53:33] not rare yeah it looks like salt water
[53:37] yeah and and we have a lot of
[53:38] comparative planetology with is it the
[53:41] Arctic when it freezes over you have
[53:44] these chunks of ice that will break and
[53:46] refreeze and readjust and and you can
[53:49] compare the images and you'd think you
[53:50] were looking at the frozen Arctic yeah
[53:52] yeah so it it looks and there's more
[53:55] water in that ocean
[53:57] than all the oceans of the earth
[53:58] combined geologically active there are
[54:01] questions about how the ice cracks and
[54:03] moves on the surface so it's a
[54:05] fascinating Mission so that's Europa
[54:07] Mars of course which You' probably
[54:08] spoken about many times on this podcast
[54:11] um Enceladus is another one Saturn's
[54:13] moon even even out of Pluto I even the
[54:16] ones we see the plumes of of geysers I
[54:20] guess yeah yeah when at the right Sun
[54:22] angle you can see who who took those
[54:24] pictures that must must have been right
[54:27] right right yeah so and also there's
[54:29] some measurements from Cassini the
[54:31] particles in those Jets of water which
[54:34] are consistent with hydrothermal vent
[54:37] activity on the floors and hydrothermal
[54:39] vents are one of the plausible
[54:42] candidates for the origin of life on
[54:43] Earth yes so you seem to have everything
[54:46] the one thing I think europa's got that
[54:49] arguably nowhere else has is it looks
[54:51] like that ocean has been there for many
[54:53] billions of years that's the the
[54:55] Baseline scenario and we evolve life in
[54:58] less time than that here on Earth yeah
[55:00] yeah present what 3.8 billion years ago
[55:03] 3.8 yeah yeah and the the other four and
[55:06] a half billion years old so right yes so
[55:08] so it looks like you have a habitat
[55:09] that's been stable there and I think you
[55:11] can't CL that with in fact you know it
[55:13] was taught that it took about a half a
[55:15] billion years on Earth to get life going
[55:17] but we were able to revise that number
[55:20] down because in the early Earth these
[55:23] periods of heavy bombardment it's not
[55:25] fair to start the clock while we're
[55:27] still getting slammed by you know still
[55:29] accreting leftover rocks from the solar
[55:31] system as the temperature of the surface
[55:33] of the Earth is high enough to prevent
[55:35] complex molecules give us a chance
[55:38] please so the the periods of bombardment
[55:41] subside Earth surface cools now start
[55:44] the clock and then it's about 100 100
[55:46] million years yeah yeah so that's like
[55:48] that yeah which is one of the reasons I
[55:51] think that I think if you speak to many
[55:53] biologists they would say that might
[55:55] suggest that given the right conditions
[55:58] then whatever the origin of life is
[56:00] there's a reasonable probability given
[56:02] the right conditions because it happened
[56:04] quickly here right so but that now
[56:06] that's not that's not definitive in any
[56:08] sense but certainly tempting to go there
[56:11] but then but what I find very
[56:13] interesting then is though when you ask
[56:15] okay but when did life get more complex
[56:17] than a single cell you're you're then I
[56:20] don't think there's any evidence in the
[56:21] fossil record back Beyond about 600
[56:23] million years ago that took a while yeah
[56:25] we we as single cell creatures three
[56:28] billion years yeah plus but it seems so
[56:31] I think people who think about this
[56:33] problem are honest about that and so in
[56:35] the search for life on other planets
[56:37] we're really looking for single cell
[56:39] organism well it would be it would be
[56:42] remarkable to see anything more complex
[56:44] well it' be remarkable to see a single
[56:45] cell because then you
[56:48] know especially if it were biologically
[56:50] different so you can really show that
[56:52] it's got a different origin because it's
[56:53] worth saying that on Mars the material
[56:55] is exchanged between Earth and Mars so
[56:57] it's not obvious yeah that you could and
[56:59] you make all these points in your Series
[57:01] right so where where where can people
[57:03] find your series it's streaming I
[57:04] presume yeah yeah we've got the new one
[57:06] is just on the moment actually that's
[57:07] what I'm saying the solar system so that
[57:10] will appear on Apple I suppose at some
[57:12] point and other places yeah I mean it's
[57:14] the moment it's on the BBC so um and
[57:17] it's streaming on the BBC and then it
[57:18] will head off around the world one of
[57:20] the coolest things I think about Europa
[57:22] is that the the habitat that the
[57:25] potential habitat requires Jupiter
[57:29] because the the heating it's liquid
[57:31] because of theing around a big but it
[57:35] also seems to require well it requires
[57:37] the other moons iio and ganim to keep it
[57:39] in this orbital resonance which keeps
[57:40] feeding the energy in from the
[57:42] gravitational field the Family Affair
[57:44] but it also might need the the the
[57:46] material from the volcanoes of IO on the
[57:50] surface of Europa because they might
[57:53] provide the what what we call the
[57:55] oxidant right so that so so life is so
[57:58] you're saying that the an IO which is
[58:02] badly stressed it's just one big volcano
[58:05] there one big volcano so th it spews
[58:09] volcanic substance yeah faster than
[58:12] escape velocity apparently and then it
[58:13] goes which lands on on EUR and it it
[58:16] goes into Pathways that intersect other
[58:19] moons Europa included you do this for a
[58:22] billion years and then the
[58:24] chemistry and then it gets iradi helps
[58:26] out the chemistry yeah so we we one of
[58:29] the theories that that I've spoken to
[58:31] people on the clip emission said is that
[58:33] that's part of the battery of life that
[58:36] chemistry so life I can't remember who
[58:38] said it but he said life it was someone
[58:40] said it's life it's an electron looking
[58:42] for a place to land that's what life is
[58:45] it's just in one way you can see life is
[58:47] electrons moving around but that means
[58:49] you need the chemistry but to is that
[58:51] all we are just electrons looking for a
[58:53] place to land well that's that's whatt
[58:56] I'd rather be Dust in the Wind whatever
[58:58] all we are so so but I find that
[59:01] wonderful because then you've got this
[59:02] habitat which is a system and as you
[59:05] said comparative planetology you
[59:07] mentioned earlier it's also true of
[59:08] Earth isn't it you you can't understand
[59:11] Earth without understanding the system
[59:14] the solar system you need to understand
[59:16] the moon and how it stabilizes the spin
[59:19] axis and you need to understand of
[59:20] course the sun and the way it interacts
[59:21] with Earth and so on I'm a few years
[59:23] your senior I don't know if you would
[59:25] remember this but I defitely do the era
[59:27] where no one was thinking or caring
[59:29] about moons yeah in the solar system you
[59:32] know we had a we have a dead Moon
[59:33] orbiting us oddly large but fine let's
[59:36] go look at the planets yeah and so every
[59:38] Mission out to the planets we the they
[59:41] looked over their shoulder and found
[59:43] moons which had way more geologic
[59:46] diversity than anything we're finding on
[59:48] the planet you know I found it
[59:49] interesting because did you I mean when
[59:51] you were in school did where were we pre
[59:54] Voyage well Voyage it so I'm pre Voyager
[59:57] and Voyager turned the moons into Worlds
[59:59] yeah that's what happened yeah yeah so
[01:00:01] the idea you have a habitable zone in a
[01:00:03] solar system which is the The Zone
[01:00:05] within which if you have a rocky planet
[01:00:07] orbiting and everything's right then and
[01:00:09] the atmosphere is right you could have
[01:00:10] the conditions to support life on the
[01:00:12] surface liquid water let's say and so
[01:00:16] and so that turn out to be needlessly
[01:00:19] limiting well exactly so so so you just
[01:00:21] say well Mars Earth Venus in our solar
[01:00:24] system that's it but then you find reh
[01:00:26] habitable zones around gas giants that
[01:00:29] and that as you said that was the great
[01:00:30] discovery of VO Voyager I would say yeah
[01:00:33] began with voyager really for sure yeah
[01:00:35] should be 19 early 1980s right so I'm
[01:00:38] I'm delighted even as a particle
[01:00:39] physicist you get to also platform the
[01:00:42] solar system because you you have the
[01:00:44] name recognition was always but that's
[01:00:46] why I said I started with astrophysics I
[01:00:48] really just wanted to be an astronomer
[01:00:50] so I've always been I've I've got a
[01:00:51] telescope you confess to me I a safe
[01:00:54] space to do that ended up in particle
[01:00:56] physics it was almost so I was doing
[01:00:58] astrophysics that's what I was doing and
[01:01:00] I thought I want to be an astronomer we
[01:01:02] University of Manchester has the jodell
[01:01:03] bank radio telescope for example which
[01:01:05] one of the big radio telescopes in the
[01:01:06] world still and so I that wasn't the one
[01:01:09] that discovered the first Pulsar was it
[01:01:11] uh no that Cambridge CD CD J discovered
[01:01:15] something else I mean just George bank
[01:01:17] it's it was one of the first so it's
[01:01:19] Pine it's one of the pioneering it's it
[01:01:21] does a lot of the work work on the camp
[01:01:22] pulsar and so on but uh it was uh so so
[01:01:25] I thought I'd be an astronomer and I
[01:01:27] have a telescope you that's what I do I
[01:01:29] I sit there and in we accept you in the
[01:01:31] club even though you you you drifted to
[01:01:34] particle physics space expiration so
[01:01:36] that's what all what but it was at
[01:01:38] University I just got interested in
[01:01:41] mathematics I didn't think I was very
[01:01:43] good at mathematics at school and uh but
[01:01:46] I found out if with a bit of practice
[01:01:48] then I I enjoyed it so I ended up really
[01:01:51] getting more into theoretical physics
[01:01:52] and and went that way so that's why I
[01:01:55] ended up in partical physics really but
[01:01:57] then now of course I I've every every
[01:02:00] opportunity I get I seem to drift back
[01:02:02] because the universe is cool you know I
[01:02:05] don't want to brag about the universe
[01:02:06] but and black holes actually are where
[01:02:09] they intersect they absolutely particle
[01:02:12] physics and general
[01:02:13] relativity astronomy and the Big Bang
[01:02:16] itself course yeah yeah yeah yeah with
[01:02:18] your particle physics hat where are we
[01:02:20] with neutrinos now I thought with
[01:02:22] they're sort of fully understood we
[01:02:24] solved the nutrino problem in the Sun
[01:02:27] that a Nobel Prize was given for that uh
[01:02:30] is there anything left to discover about
[01:02:32] this elusive particle that belongs in
[01:02:35] the in the I say Tree of Life in the the
[01:02:38] particle Tree of Life yeah I mean there
[01:02:40] are neutrinos are fascinating things
[01:02:43] that they're very very very they're
[01:02:45] almost massless but not quite and that
[01:02:48] matters that should ring bells you know
[01:02:50] it's like why that's the thing about
[01:02:51] science isn't it you go why is this
[01:02:53] unusually light or maybe it isn't maybe
[01:02:56] the other things are unusually heavy but
[01:02:57] but but but it's telling us something
[01:02:59] and it's only
[01:03:00] neutrinos that how hard it is to
[01:03:02] interact with them they gives me any
[01:03:05] belief at all in some other set of
[01:03:08] particles that might exist that we don't
[01:03:10] interact with because neutrinos are our
[01:03:12] own species well they interact through a
[01:03:14] the weak Force they interact but that's
[01:03:16] us that's our little world here right
[01:03:19] any other symmetric particles there
[01:03:22] other forces that mediate them is that
[01:03:24] correct there would be so if you have um
[01:03:28] sort of extensions to the standard model
[01:03:30] of particle physics then you you can
[01:03:32] have forces that change things into
[01:03:34] other things and and so different forces
[01:03:37] but as far as we know as far the zoo
[01:03:40] that we have discovered is is described
[01:03:42] by the three forces um the strong
[01:03:45] nuclear force the weak nuclear force
[01:03:46] electromagnetism and then hanging out
[01:03:48] there as we've discussed is gravity in
[01:03:51] in really a different framework at the
[01:03:54] moment so I Coral Steve ber in elevator
[01:03:56] one day and
[01:03:59] uh and you know physicist I'm telling
[01:04:02] you I'm telling the audience particle
[01:04:04] physicist one of the greats yeah and he
[01:04:07] went to my high school let me allow me
[01:04:09] to add one of wi Nobel laurates from my
[01:04:12] high school and I
[01:04:15] said how can you live with yourself at
[01:04:19] night given how many particles there are
[01:04:22] come on there's like I lost count what
[01:04:25] what what does what does this mean about
[01:04:26] our universe and he said it's not how
[01:04:30] many particles there
[01:04:32] are it's how many laws we have that
[01:04:36] describe them all yeah and it's only
[01:04:38] just a few yeah I thought damn good
[01:04:41] answer yeah he's I remember Steven Weber
[01:04:44] good answer I I think I'm right in
[01:04:47] quoting him as saying that he almost
[01:04:50] wish black holes didn't exist because
[01:04:53] they're so perplexing that it would be
[01:04:55] just easier and he was kind of joking of
[01:04:57] course because physicists love a mystery
[01:05:00] but he was almost like this is too
[01:05:02] difficult there too bizarre maybe nature
[01:05:04] doesn't make them oh I got so see see
[01:05:07] he's he's invoking human limitations on
[01:05:10] the capacity of kind of joke and he was
[01:05:12] just saying these things are so baffling
[01:05:13] and so weird in some ways I'd rather
[01:05:16] they weren't there you know did he say
[01:05:17] that in his old age so that he was
[01:05:20] getting tired of solving the universe he
[01:05:22] was joking so we're still trying to
[01:05:24] explore neutrinos and as I understand
[01:05:26] there's a new nutrino experiment that
[01:05:29] just there came online I mean there are
[01:05:31] several I mean I so the I mean what the
[01:05:35] fundamental question they they do seem
[01:05:39] that the reason we're interested in them
[01:05:40] just we're interested in them because
[01:05:42] they're three of the 12 fundamental
[01:05:44] particles right so so we are made of
[01:05:49] basically three particles that's us and
[01:05:52] electrons protons neutrons uh well no so
[01:05:55] so the protons and neutrons are made of
[01:05:56] quarks oh so okay quarks down let let's
[01:06:00] start from the we're made of atoms you
[01:06:02] can start with we're made of atoms and
[01:06:04] we ATS in Greek means indivisible yeah
[01:06:08] that's what that word means yeah and and
[01:06:10] I it is remarkable by the way you say
[01:06:12] the the Greeks 2,000 years ago uh we
[01:06:15] only discovered that the structure of
[01:06:17] atoms in the 20th century or there ads
[01:06:19] existed well yeah it was up for debates
[01:06:22] the turn of the 20th century it was one
[01:06:24] of the debates in science is there such
[01:06:25] a thing as an atom yeah it's incredible
[01:06:28] incredible yeah yeah yeah and Einstein
[01:06:30] indeed in 1905 one of his famous papers
[01:06:32] was on brownie in motion which one of
[01:06:35] the three famous papers in that year one
[01:06:37] of the other one was special relativity
[01:06:38] and the other one when he got the Nobel
[01:06:40] Prize for was the photo electric effects
[01:06:42] the third one Einstein we should just
[01:06:44] retroactively give him like a dozen
[01:06:45] Nobel prizes it's astonishing he didn't
[01:06:48] get the Nobel Prize for relativity you
[01:06:50] got it for basically the foundation to
[01:06:52] Quantum Mechanics yeah we we discovered
[01:06:54] that matters made of atoms and then we
[01:06:57] very quickly discover after that that
[01:06:59] the atom is a electrons initially we
[01:07:02] have this almost solar system like model
[01:07:04] that it's a a nucleus a dense nucleus
[01:07:07] with an electron going around it and
[01:07:09] then we discover the nucleus is made of
[01:07:10] protons and neutrons that's 1930s by the
[01:07:13] way by orbit model is still the the
[01:07:16] symbol for an atom yeah you know yeah
[01:07:18] the atomic because it's classic you know
[01:07:21] but that's Adams look nothing like that
[01:07:22] no no no and so then quantum mechanics
[01:07:24] comes in tells you you can't have that
[01:07:26] because charged particles moving around
[01:07:28] in the vicinity of other charged
[01:07:29] particles radiate energy away and they
[01:07:31] wouldn't be stable and that was known of
[01:07:33] course um and so then you find that the
[01:07:36] nucleus is made of prot and neutrons and
[01:07:38] as I said the neutron it's a 1930s
[01:07:40] Discovery so we're not that long ago I'm
[01:07:42] amazed when so much you know we're now
[01:07:45] in the
[01:07:46] Centennial decade of the discovery of
[01:07:48] quantum physics back in the
[01:07:50] 1920s and the whole 1920s was done
[01:07:54] before we discovered the new
[01:07:56] that's crazy yeah it's it's it's almost
[01:07:58] living it is living memory for some
[01:08:00] people just about this okay so let's get
[01:08:03] back to the fundamental particles then
[01:08:05] then we discovered that the protons and
[01:08:06] neutrons are made of quarks quarks so
[01:08:08] they are as far as we can tell Point
[01:08:11] like objects so they're fundamental they
[01:08:13] won't be but as far as we can tell they
[01:08:15] are experimentally so we have the photon
[01:08:18] the electron well let's the matter
[01:08:21] particles so we have so the up and down
[01:08:23] quarks make up protons and neutrons so
[01:08:25] proton is is two ups and a down and a
[01:08:27] neutron is two downs and an up got it
[01:08:30] and we have two quarks per energy
[01:08:33] stratum here correct well so then so
[01:08:36] then we discovered so we had this we
[01:08:38] have this nice thing so we have the
[01:08:39] electron as you said the up and down
[01:08:41] quark and then the thing called the
[01:08:43] electron
[01:08:44] neutrino which we so we just talked
[01:08:46] about NEOS so only four fundamental
[01:08:48] particles in anything we know or care
[01:08:50] about so we have four of them yep that's
[01:08:52] it and then we have so I can construct
[01:08:54] you out of these particles if I had the
[01:08:56] the
[01:08:57] recip but then so we have four of them
[01:09:00] so so that's there's four of them and
[01:09:02] then the for is that that mediate the
[01:09:04] interactions right okay and which we can
[01:09:07] also think of as being carried by
[01:09:09] particles as we said we have the photon
[01:09:11] partic the electromagnetic force we have
[01:09:13] the w and z bosons which do the weak
[01:09:15] nuclear force and the gluons which the
[01:09:18] strong nuclear force and stick the
[01:09:19] quarks name gluons GL okay and and so
[01:09:23] that's it it seems except that there are
[01:09:26] two copies of those that are identical
[01:09:31] except they're more massive so the so
[01:09:34] there's there's the Str the charm and
[01:09:36] strange quarks and the muon and the M
[01:09:39] neutrino that's another family that's
[01:09:41] nothing that's the next level up in
[01:09:42] energy they're more massive more massive
[01:09:45] okay okay so you have the charm and
[01:09:46] strange and the muan and the Muno and
[01:09:50] then you have another one yeah which are
[01:09:52] the bottom and top or sometimes called
[01:09:54] Beauty and Truth depending on how you
[01:09:56] want to do it the quarks and then the
[01:09:58] TOA and the to neutrino and that's it as
[01:10:01] far as we can tell so that those are the
[01:10:03] M 4812 fundamental particles and their
[01:10:06] antimatter counterparts yeah and then
[01:10:08] the antimatter counterparts and so that
[01:10:10] that why we don't know so why there are
[01:10:15] three and with with experimentally
[01:10:18] proven really with some very small
[01:10:21] caveats only three generations only
[01:10:23] three families of these things
[01:10:26] is there reason for there to be only
[01:10:27] three could there be five 10 so we don't
[01:10:29] know it must be something to do with the
[01:10:31] underlying it looks like a periodic
[01:10:33] table so remember you go back to men
[01:10:36] mendal and the periodic table what what
[01:10:38] how do you understand that pattern in
[01:10:40] the in the chemical properties of the of
[01:10:42] the elements you understand it when you
[01:10:44] know that everything's made of atoms
[01:10:46] yeah I mean the chemist arranged it but
[01:10:48] didn't have any understanding of it no
[01:10:50] quantum physics well well you need to
[01:10:52] know the structure you need to know that
[01:10:53] there's a nucleus and there's you know
[01:10:55] hydrogen's got one electron and helium's
[01:10:57] got two and carbon how can we only get
[01:10:59] you so far yeah so so you you understand
[01:11:02] chemistry you understand the pattern
[01:11:03] when you understand the building blocks
[01:11:05] okay so we don't know why that pattern
[01:11:07] is there but it's clearly telling us
[01:11:09] about the building blocks or the
[01:11:11] underlying Theory which we don't know so
[01:11:13] it's one of the great Mysteries so so
[01:11:15] this so that's the the the zoo of
[01:11:18] particles as we know and then there's
[01:11:19] the higs and just to be clear when I
[01:11:22] attacked Steven Weinberg in the elevator
[01:11:24] uh most of the particle identities I was
[01:11:27] referencing are different combinations
[01:11:29] of different quirks yeah come together
[01:11:31] yeah so all these like you said in the
[01:11:33] f50s and people were discovering all
[01:11:35] these things and they're different
[01:11:38] combinations of ups and downs and
[01:11:39] strange and charm and and and bottom and
[01:11:43] you know and so on so they exist in our
[01:11:45] universe but again they're made of the
[01:11:46] more
[01:11:47] fundamental so so basically the these
[01:11:50] things that the proton and neutron
[01:11:52] they're kind analogous to an atom in a
[01:11:54] way so so they're a thing they're quite
[01:11:56] a big things in particle physics and
[01:11:59] they have an internal structure and and
[01:12:01] one yeah and one of the things that I
[01:12:03] was involved in that we did back in
[01:12:04] Hamburg all those years ago was we were
[01:12:06] mapping the structure of the proton so
[01:12:09] we we we're saying what what is in the
[01:12:10] proton how does it work maing the
[01:12:12] interior structure of the proton and we
[01:12:13] need that we needed that for the LHC so
[01:12:16] we need because we Collide protons
[01:12:17] together so so we have very detailed
[01:12:20] maps if you like they call structure
[01:12:22] functions but they're maps of the of the
[01:12:24] proton well
[01:12:25] thank you pleasure for joining me I I
[01:12:28] always love talking to you being we're
[01:12:31] just like we're Kindred Spirits in this
[01:12:34] world and I wish you great success with
[01:12:36] your spring tour does it go beyond the
[01:12:39] United States is it a world tour it has
[01:12:41] been a world tour we've been to I don't
[01:12:43] know 20 or 30 countries I said we we
[01:12:46] we're probably approaching half a
[01:12:47] million people who've come to okay so so
[01:12:49] that's the that we're we're at the at
[01:12:52] the end really of this one and so I just
[01:12:54] wanted to bring it back here it's
[01:12:56] changed so much we could started in the
[01:12:59] states actually with it in its Proto
[01:13:02] form and now and now I just I I've loved
[01:13:04] doing it so much and I just wanted to
[01:13:06] bring I just like the idea that a
[01:13:07] science talk is being given but there
[01:13:09] are trucks that have to unload the
[01:13:10] staging for it it's Pro it's proper rock
[01:13:13] and roll I got Ries I've got everything
[01:13:16] do you have a Tor T-shirt with on it
[01:13:19] yeah oh yeah all right I should have
[01:13:21] brought one to one of those shirts oh my
[01:13:23] god oh we've got everything and we've
[01:13:24] done so many many shows I I how many it
[01:13:26] is 150 200 they don't all fit on one
[01:13:29] t-shirt so so we got different t-shirts
[01:13:31] for different regions of the the world
[01:13:34] physics takes the world uh very good
[01:13:36] Brian again thanks for being on the show
[01:13:39] this has been an exclusive conversation
[01:13:41] between me and my good friend Brian Cox
[01:13:44] from the UK who's coming
[01:13:46] Stateside with a tour and we're going to
[01:13:48] look for the solar system on should be
[01:13:51] Rand yeah if does it BBC how many how
[01:13:55] many episodes is it five five episodes
[01:13:57] we'll look forward all right I this has
[01:13:59] been star talk I'm your host Neil
[01:14:01] degrass Tyson as always keep looking up
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