take me to the frontier of particle
physics today there's tremendous
progress being it's such an exciting
time in fundamental physics not only
particle physics but we said
gravitational astronomy the exploration
of the force of gravity black holes
Quantum information Quantum Computing
and all sorts all that stuff is is to me
utterly fascinating I I think for the
first time it's probably true to say in
particle physics we don't know if
there's anything else just around the
corner which is bad you know but it's
also it is our duty to find things out
about
nature this is Star Talk Neil degrass
Tyson you're a personal astrophysicist
and today we are featuring my exclusive
one-on-one interview with my friend and
colleague from across the pond Brian Cox
Brian welcome hi it's great to be back
oh my God gosh oh it's it's been been
tooo long yeah and we don't usually get
to do it in person it's usually over
Zoom or something right let's get some
of your biography out there for State
Side people who might not fully know who
you are uh you cut your teeth as a
particle physicist is that correct yeah
initially I mean actually my degree is
the University of Manchester by the way
in the UK I've never left so I started
there doing my undergraduate degree
postgraduate what do they call you there
now you are professor of particle
physics at the University of Manchester
yeah and Royal
Society as in the Royal Society of
London yeah Royal Society professor of
public engagement in science yeah so
we're Kindred Souls across the Atlantic
yeah so okay so you never left is that
because they wanted you so badly or that
no one else wanted you yeah probably the
latter but but I started it was actually
um physics with astrophysics my degree
so I did a degree physics with
astrophysics then PhD in particle
physics although the first year was I
was working on supernova neutrinos so I
crossing over in astroparticle physics
as we would call it then I got into
particle physics went to the daisy
laboratory in Hamburg and works on
electron proton collisions so called
defc scattering I've seen Daisy online
I've seen Daisy simulations of things
they simulate like colliding black holes
and things fascinating Daisy they Dy
theut synchron yeah they they have a a
public facing platform see I didn't know
that I didn't know because the
accelerator is no longer operational so
but it's a big it's it's a huge lab in
Hamburg so I did my PhD there that's in
particle physics then moved to fermilab
in Chicago for a while and then to CERN
when we were Building A Large Hadron
Collider and then but I've always
Switzerland yes in Geneva and remind me
that's Center the European Center for
nuclear research research acony French
acronymed yeah to because it was founded
in the 1950s and at the time so it was
it was what part of the Reconstruction
of Europe really after the war so it was
a that lab was founded I think it's 1954
1953 um and so it was Nuclear Physics at
the time there wasn't really such a
thing as particle physics I suppose at
the time and then and now it's by far
the world's largest accelerator particle
physics lab yeah I mean the center of
mass of that whole world left the United
States when we stopped funding our super
in Texas yeah the SSC super conducting
supering super collider yeah I would
have called it the super duper collider
that might have kept its funding at that
point but uh yeah so Europe still leads
the world in in nuclear particle
research it's a it's a it's a very
International lab I mean it is the
world's cider so um so although it's
based in Switzerland and France I would
say it's a it's a world lab
okay that's very diplomatic of you well
it certainly is I mean the US have a
tremendous presence there for example
while you're saying all this to me
you're not describing this this branch
of your life as a musician so just
briefly remind me of that yes so when I
was uh 18 so traditionally you would go
to university there start a Physics
degree but I didn't because I was in a
band a rock band that I joined just
before I'm sure your parents love that
fact no they did actually they they they
loved it I could go to college and major
in physics or continue with my band oh
but do you have that thing like a gap
year we call it where you say well I'm
going to take a year off the studies
before I go to college or university and
so I'd said that I'd said I'm going to
be in this band and and I'm just going
to do it for a year and then I'll go and
do physics H but then we got a record
deal uh a big record deal with A&M
records this is in 1986 1987 it's a long
time ago got a big record deal and so we
we I came to Los Angeles and recorded an
album with uh actually produced by Larry
kleene who was married to Joanie
Mitchell at the time and so we recorded
some of it in Janie Mitchell studio in
Los Angeles so and then we toured with
uh my first professional gig with that
band was with Jimmy Page in Jimmy pagee
and did you open for Jimmy Page yeah we
open for Jimmy pagee and and Gary Moore
who'd also been in the band thing Lizzy
and then Europe the The Final Countdown
so you know this song The Final
Countdown and Carri was a big h here in
the US so we opened for them made a
couple of albums so I did that basically
for five years and it charted uh
actually no we we just we did Big Shows
it was a rock and roll band and then and
then we I left that band um went
straight back to Manchester and went to
start a Physics degree as one do yes but
then in that little Gap that I joined
another band who then had some hit
records so a band called D this is in
the early 90s now and we we they didn't
have a record deal when I joined them
and they got a record deal as well so
when I was at University I was in this
band we had a number one hit in the UK
and Australia with a song which violates
the second law thermodynamics which
you'll love call things can only get
better which is clearly incorrect
certainly things could only get worse
globally in the universe exactly so and
then so so yeah so I had a two and that
song what helped it if I remember
correctly some political candidate
adopted it their theme song Tony Blair
it was very ton Blair yeah it was Tony
Blair in
1997 his associated with his election
yeah and came back actually into fashion
because we just had a a change of
administration in the UK and uh that
song came up again and it came up and it
got quite popular again so I did
Glastonbury this year with the band wait
that's that huge Place yeah the big
Festival yeah that's the hu any huge
scene of musicians in the UK is at that
location well it's the world I mean it's
probably the biggest Festival in the
world I would imagine I would guess but
it's a huge Festival so you and Brian
May those we are the two he did it the
other way around though he he so he he
got
extremely well yeah he he got extremely
famous and then finished his PhD in
astrophysics yeah okay Brian May good Le
guitarist of queen queen yes yeah so
let's pick up some of the physics we are
both here right now now in Las Vegas uh
at
a world Skeptics conference yeah yeah uh
we we're both Skeptics I mean any
scientist is a skeptic but problem is
when the world does weird things who's
going to put them in check somebody's
got to show up at the scene and say no
that's not how that works or no the laws
of physics prevent that or you so you've
you've had to do this in the UK right
there's certain resonances between the
United States and the UK about how
people misthink things so what was your
baptism into this world well actually I
mean I was only interested in doing
research for a long time so I as a
postar and that in that part of my
career I didn't want to know about
anything else other than doing research
and that's all I did but um it was uh I
can't remember when it was now but there
was one of those regular funding crises
as you'll know from here in the US when
when government support in particular
for research dipped and so I got
involved in trying to fight that and we
realize I mean it's kind of obvious I
suppose but we realize that one of the
reasons talking to government that they
had cut the research budget was that
they didn't think anyone cared so they
thought it was a simple thing to demy
you could just and so we we as a
Community we were re-ed we we learned
again we've learned over the years but
we learned again that popular support
popular support uh for for what we do is
important and and where does the support
comes from it comes from understanding
and I could there are many reasons by
the way why uh talking to people who are
not in science about what we are doing
as scientists is important one of them
of course is just purely democratizing
knowledge it's it we tax payers fund at
least in part what we do and therefore
they have a right to know so there's
that level but on the other level which
I think you're suggesting as well um
what science does I think it's not it's
not about knowing the facts it's not
about really it's not about knowing the
universe is 13.8 billion years old for
example or it's 13.8 billion years since
the Big Bang we could talk about that
later actually does that mean it had a
bite origin in time in the P that anyway
but it's not put in that we'll get back
to that okay it's not about knowing
facts so much
as understanding something about the
process by which we acquire reliable
knowledge about the world and and
science is the process by which we
acquire reliable knowledge and so I I
think that realiz in that on that well
it's yeah in the sense I think in the
sense that nature is there whether and
and it the job of the scientist is to
find out how it works and of course as
Richard fan and many others are famously
said it doesn't care who you are or what
your opinion is or how popular you are
how many votes you got or anything how
much money you've got it doesn't care so
in that sense I think it is a unique
Pursuit because the the standard by
which your opinion is judged is is
external to us it's nothing to do with
Humanity nature is the ultimate judge
jury an executioner so so so I think I
became involved initially just on that
very narrow idea that we wanted to make
sure that people understood what we did
and what the value of it is and then
that branch that that became bigger and
bigger in my career and and Branch
Stein's television and and live shows
and all sorts of things but it came from
that that's I wasn't interested in
communicating science I was just
interested in doing it for a very long
time so you had a certain Duty and
responsibility to the world well I think
we all do I mean I've realized since
that I I think uh actually fan again
said it's a very brilliant essay that
anyone can download from 1955 I think it
is called the value of science it's just
four pages and it's there it's on calex
archive I think and in there he says
that it is our duty as scientists our
duty knowing the the great value of he
calls it he defines science as a
satisfactory philosophy of ignorance
which is a beauti
just merely satisfactory it's philosophy
of ignorance you start out from not
knowing and he said and he said the
great value of the satisfactory
philosophy of ignorance the great value
of freedom of thought to Proclaim that
freedom and to try to protect it for all
coming Generations essentially says at
the end so but but I like the framing it
is our duty as scientist to do that as
well as do our job which is to find
things out about nature about the
natural world and I uh in this
conference I am to bestow upon you the
Richard Dawkins award for science and
reason bestow bestow yes the Richard
Dawkins award is something I won last
year and uh I was called back in to
bestow it upon
you a great honor it is a it will be a
delight for me it takes place tonight
yeah I look forward to that and just the
idea that science and reason is
something maybe it's sad that it's
something that needs to be
rewarded because if it's one of these
awards that if the world functioned just
right you wouldn't need it and also you
know although I said as as fan has said
it's it's in in a sense our duty as
scientists it is also true that not all
scientists want to want to do that or or
feel comfortable with it as I said I
didn't want to do it um initially now
now I very much enjoy it and think it's
very important but it so we don't need
everybody to to do it but but some
people will and that's that's important
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let's get back to the show so let's talk
physics take me to the frontier of
particle physics today what's going on
at CERN now that the pigs boan is
discovered and the Nobel prizes were
granted uh what are they doing now well
did they just close shop and go home no
I mean what what particle physics is
because we're talking about quantum
mechanics basically it's statistical in
the sense that do you Collide what we do
there is Collide protons together at
high energy and we Collide a lots of
protons together at high energy protons
have a charge so that you can put them
in a magnetic field and accelerate them
yeah to very high speed yeah so so they
go so the LHC
in kilometers is 27 kilm and that's the
number yeah about 60 miles or something
like that and uh and the the protons go
around that ring uh 11,000 times a
second so that's how fast they go that's
fast that's
99.999999% the speed of light okay so
you you've granted them energy so that
when you Collide them you break them
apart you're basically deconstructing
nature
to see what residue comes out of it when
I think of doing that for anything else
it's going to break right I don't take
chairs and slam them together and still
have chairs I have a pile
of of kindling okay so who ever thought
it was a good idea to smash nature into
itself well um I suppose ER is
Rutherford initially um so we go back to
Manchester the turn of the 20th century
and Rutherford was using radioactive
decay to um essentially produce the
particles I mean it's just the the decay
of the decay of atomic nuclei that
naturally happens to produce high energy
particles which he then fired into gold
foil and bounced them off the foil in
doing that he discovered the atomic
nucleus so you one way to think about
particle physics is that you when you
Collide things together what are you
doing you you're really building a
microscope one way to think of it is
that the higher the energy of the
Collision the the faster these things
are traveling uh the smaller the the
smaller the objects you can see so we
were talking about seeing for the first
time in those experiments the atomic
nucleus and you move forward to the um
you well ultimately through the 50s and
60s and we have higher and higher energy
collisions you start seeing that the
nucleus is made of protons and neutrons
and then you start seeing in the 50s and
60s that the protons and neutrons are
made of smaller things called quarks and
so we discover those that we've not
discovered anything smaller than that by
the way is it because you don't have
enough energy to bust up a quark yes
well well or or to resolve what's inside
it let's say to build a microscope
because right now the inventory of
fundamental particles includes quirks
yeah so somebody saying that's
fundamental which sounds a little like
the Greeks saying atoms are fundamental
oh no they won't be fundamental you're
absolutely right but uh but they look
Point like from the the point view from
the energies that we can generate today
but that that's one side of particle
physics so we've been exploring the
structure of matter which is
historically you know it goes back to
Rutherford I suppose and again you have
confidence that when you break matter
apart you didn't break the matter you're
just deconstructing it yeah you you're
it really I think the way to think about
it when you think about what a collision
is so let's say you Collide as we did at
in my PhD electrons and protons together
so you get an electron beam and a proton
beam and you smash them into each other
what's actually happening what's
actually happening is one way that the
Collision can happen is that the
electron can emit a photon which is a
particle of light and the particle of
light goes and and and it hits the pH
the proton now the the wavelength of
that light which is which telling you
how small a thing you can see is
proportional to the energy of the thing
that's how hard we're smashing the
things together so the
together yeah so faster you smash
together the higher the energy the
smaller the the smaller the things that
you can see so so that's a way of
thinking about particle collision so it
really is a microscope in that sense
that analogy works I'm just thinking if
I were a proton I wouldn't want to be
busted apart into quirks that would not
be a nice day for me in some ways I
suppose it's like having it's kind of
like having an x-ray I suppose isn't it
you're right though you hit them hard
enough and they fall to bits but that
would be the same for you would so
but we we would try not to hit ex what
the bits that I fell into no one's
considered them
fundamental bits of Neil but right but
the other way to think about particle
physics which is I think so you say the
higs particle you mentioned so that's
not in the proton you're not you're not
smashing the things together and finding
a higs particle buried in there
somewhere the other side is really so
you think of Einstein's famous equation
eal mc^2 so energy and mass are
interchangeable let's put it like that
so it also says that if we have loads of
energy in these collisions then we can
make new particles that are extremely
massive much more massive that would
come spontaneously out of the available
energy that would otherwise be doing
nothing so so we have when you Collide
protons together these energies you have
plenty of energy there to make a higs
particle for example or a top quar which
is a very heavy particle as well far
more massive than the protons so so
that's I suppose the way to think about
trying to manufacture higs particles so
you can observe them you need enough
energy to make them so you're not just
buing them apart you're creating an
opportunity to view more massive
particles than would otherwise be
available to you yeah and the other
thing to say so to get a complete
picture is these very massive things
like higs particles um they they have a
very short lifetime so you make them and
they Decay away into lighter particles
very very fast so you don't see the higs
particles what you see the the debris
from the decay of the higs particle and
the the the the challenge of particle
physics is to get detect all those bits
that came off basically and by the way
you also have the bits of the protons
that all got smashed up as well so it's
a big mess and we have more
than these these it's very hard because
you don't only have one proton Collision
per we we we send the particles around
in little bunches basically so you can
get 10 20 30 collisions at the same time
only one of them on a very good day will
be an interesting one and and then so
you've got to sift through all this
which is the the the difficulty or the
professional challenge let's say of
particle physics with that reasoning
there's always some next energy level
that you haven't visited yes where more
and interesting physics can reveal
itself and this is where it gets um
challenging at the moment because so the
the so-called standard model higs
particle and I should just that for a
minute that that thing the existence of
this thing was predicted in the 1960s by
Peter higs and others and um it was a
suggestion a theory a guess let's say at
the time mathematically motivated almost
purely by the way mathematically
motivated of how things get mass in the
universe at the most fundamental level
how the quarks and the these these very
heavy things called the w and z bosons
that how how those things got m
um and so it was a a mathematical
construct it predicted that there should
be in the simplest case one this thing
the higs Bose on but there could be more
complicated versions and so we knew that
if we collided protons together at the
energies that we generate at the large
handron collider then we would either
discover the higs BOS on and prove this
Theory to be correct or we knew that if
it wasn't there we would see something
else so we had a very clear idea from
experiment and theory that we were going
to discover something with that machine
and you don't know what it is it turned
out it was the simplest thing it was
this thing that Peter higs had had
dreamt of for all those years ago which
is astonishing by the way 50 years after
the prediction and there's there's a
great essay that you might know by
Eugene vigner called the unreasonable
effectiveness of mathematics physical
sciences I think that's the one of the
best examples it's an astonishing
achievement that we got it right and so
so we discover the higs Bo on to put
Precision on that that winer's the point
in that paper it's not that math in a
vacuum no pun intended makes discoveries
it's the
mathematical representation of a
physical idea yeah and then you pursue
the
math and it applies to the universe but
only if the physical idea
is has captured reality in some
fundamental way although the what it was
I think the it was a a very a very
mathematical framework which became the
standard model of particle physics based
on ideas of symmetries and all sorts of
beautiful ideas which which really did
have mathematical foundations so there's
an aesthetic sense I think built into
that model and that would be the pure
mathematical see I'm you know my people
in astrophysics we have enough
embarrassing historical examples of
chasing know elegance and Kepler Kepler
I'm saying look at Kepler but the I I
think the genius of Kepler he had these
platonic solids in these ideas right
he's got the pyramid and the cube and
the this and then he rejected it Based
on data yes in 16 but his his first
thought was the universe is beautiful
and divine and perfect and these solids
are perfect planets are in the universe
so it must be a connection he spent 10
years looking at it yeah and but then
but then he rejected it and then the
laws of planetary motion which which are
indicative of a very beautiful thing
which is Newton's law of gravitation an
inverse Square law and so there is a
there's a beauty underlying it but only
after he had to scrap this other beauty
that he had presumed it would be that's
why we we step lightly when someone says
I have this beautiful idea yeah okay
let's hear it but but it is true that
and I think it's one of the great
Mysteries that that that there is um
historically Einstein's theory general
relativity is another example where
where a quest for Simplicity and beauty
and elegance which are judgments right
the human judgments has led to very very
precise models of the way that nature
Works given that CERN which has the
large hyron collider
LHC discovered the higs boson if you to
discover more particles presumably you
have to keep sort of upgrading the
system as the LHC was compared to what
was there before so that you can ever
with ever greater force bust into the
particles and see what's lurking so we
can't increase the energy of the LHC
very easily so or even easily or we
can't really so that that would be a
major change to the machine but what we
can do and are doing is so-called High
Luminosity upgrades which means you
Collide more protons together and the
thing about um so then you win on the
statistics of the partical physics is
it's a quantum mechanics and so things
happen statistically so so it's you know
one in I don't know the numbers off to
my one in 10 billion collisions you'll
produce something like interesting a
higs it's less than that but um so so
when when giving yourself more
collisions gives you
more chance to discover new particles
and it gives you more particles like
higs bosons to explore if you get a higs
particle after however many collisions
and that's kind of rare if you have more
collisions you'll get more higs yeah to
improve your statistics on what the hell
the higs is yeah because we want to know
but then there could be a reaction
that's even rarer to manifest than the
higs and if your sample wasn't large
enough you would just never go there yes
you wouldn't see it if you just made one
thing one particle you know what one
whatever it is the higs prime whatever
if you made one of those then you
wouldn't see it if you made one of
them superhero Nemesis I'm higs Prime
you know I've come toy by the way and we
do look for those things Zed Prime the
zos on we look for the Z primes because
they can be signatures of extra
dimensions in the universe by the way so
we look for this stuff but the point is
that if something is very very rare
then you you won't really see it if you
just make one or two of them you need to
make hundreds or thousands or whatever
it is to see them yeah it's like how
many people have to live in a city
before you stumble on someone who's
seven feet tall yeah that's statistic
statistically you yeah you need so
possibly Millions yeah so so the
upgrades are the the upgrades that we
can do and it's you have to upgrade the
detectors the cameras that we use as
well as the machine okay so you kept the
same hole in the ground yeah yeah
because we don't want to dig another one
of those or change other magnets around
which are very expensive does that hole
go through more than one country or is
it all contain intland France and
Switzerland wow okay yeah most of it's
in France actually oh didn't know only a
little bit of it's in Switzerland okay
so that's one thing and and the other
thing is this higs that we've discovered
that this the question Still Remains is
it the the simplest one the standard
model higs called or is it something
more complicated how does it behave so
the analogy in in in planetary science
would be yeah we discovered a moon and
so you go great then you would like to
know about the moon you don't want to
just say we've discovered this moon it's
a DOT that's fine as you said they're
interest want characterize it in
whatever way you can for that you need a
lot of them to to observe so so so it's
it's exciting that but and it's
challenging because I I think for the
first time it's probably true to say in
particle physics we don't know if
there's anything else just around the
corner
which is bad you know but it's also good
I suppose it's just science I mean
ultimately it's neither bad nor good
it's the way nature is that's that's
what triggers whatever next round of
physics is complete yeah you know you
get PE you get those people that show up
and say there's nothing left in physics
to discover well they be they show up
every few decad so utterly wrong that
they're not even
worth I mean you know there's tremendous
progress being it's such an exciting
time in fundamental physics mhm at the
moment that uh particle physics not only
particle physics but we said
gravitational
astronomy the the the exploration of the
force of gravity black holes Quantum
information which is related to Quantum
Computing and also all that stuff is is
to me utterly fascinating there's some
really interesting I read some stuff the
other day which I don't fully understand
actually um some of the progress in
string theory it's interesting because
just as an decide it's linking it seems
to me it's linking one of the great
Mysteries which is the so-called
cosmological constant so the fact that
we observed that the universe is
accelerating in its expansion and Nobel
Prize has been given for the observation
not for the understanding yes he a
friend of mine who by the way didn't
believe his he he didn't believe it when
he saw it because it wasn't in the air
this idea he was looking at light from
Supernova super I'm on I'm on a paper
with briyan Schmidt yeah I I'm like very
minor author uh you have to scroll down
and then like my name is in the super
NOA yeah but it was it was it was
analysis of high red ship supern noi
yeah and I I totally enjoyed that work
but he obviously went on and made an
entire sort of yeah branch of his career
on it so there's this remarkable idea
that which comes from that which is
which is in Einstein's theory this idea
that you can you can have a kind of
energy in the universe let's say or a
thing whatever it is because we don't
know what it is but something that makes
the universe that the rate the the space
stretches increase which is uh so that
that's there and it's observed it's one
of the great Mysteries because it's I
think it's the smallest number in all of
physics by what is it it's something
like a 10 the^ minus 122 or something in
appropriate units right which is
absolutely ridiculously so so it's a
tiny tiny tiny tiny thing that's causing
this rate of expansion um but it's not
zero and so the question becomes why is
it tiny the the why is it tiny and not
zero yeah yeah and and so because if it
were even slightly bigger we wouldn't be
here so the universe would have been
blown apart so it seems very unusual but
I I saw the other week or the other day
actually that there's some research
that's linking that in in a in a in the
framework of a string theory uh or M
Theory to uh matter so so so there
there's a kind of an idea that if you
fix that you get a prediction out that
there should be um dark matter but it
turns out it's to do with extra
dimensions and gravitons in extra
dimensions and things so it's it's quite
but it's quite interesting so I think
there there are some very interesting
areas of string theory where progress is
being made quite remarkably do string
theorist need a fuller or better
inventory of particles so for example
are we still looking for a gravit
are we still looking for you know every
you shake a stick and there's a
physicist proposing a hypothetical
particle to explain Dark Matter to
explain wouldn't it be cool if the Dark
Matter were related to gravitons which
is that this is not my field I only
heard of it the other day but it sounded
interesting but it just shows you that
we so to go back the to to
LHC um we have the higs particle as you
said um we had expected I would say most
particle physicists expected there would
be other particles discovered there's a
particular that same experiment yeah LC
so there's a particular Theory which
which motivated by String Theory a long
time ago called super symmetry which is
a a property of the universe we we we
it's been around for many decades and it
came initially
from either from String Theory are from
some other is it got Incorporated in I
can't remember historically which way it
came but it's um
but it's it essentially predicts that
there are double the number of particles
that we see fundamental particles at
this energy so so we and they would have
been great candidates for dark matter by
the way which is astrophysical
Discovery so we should say I suppose the
one the one sentence description the
dark matter is that we see the the the
universe there's far much more ma matter
in the universe than we can see see I I
would put it differently yeah I would
say there's far it's not dark matter
it's dark gravity well you say matter we
don't know what we don't know what it is
well true so so you see it through its
gravitational inter so it's dark gravity
yeah we don't see otherwise you get
newspaper headlines say oh uh we must
abandon our ideas of Dark Matter well if
it's not matter it's still there okay
it's misnamed yes I see what you mean I
mean I I I that's a cool newspaper by
the way that would have a headline like
that it goes there at all she usually
about a football player and so I'm on
board with that newspaper yeah I'm just
saying if we don't know what it is we
had no business calling it matter at all
so the thing to say though is dark
Gravity the best which sounds cool so
you build model you build models and it
is true that the best model that fits
all the data which is not just the way
that gravit that that galaxies rotate
and and Collide and and the way that
gravities galaxies kind of lens light
and all those things but also the cosmic
microwave background radiation which is
the oldest light in the universe and and
how that worked and how the ripples the
sound waves went through the early
universe and all that you put it all
together and and it it fits if you have
a a light a lsh particle that does not
interact with light but interacts weakly
so this would be another category of
particle in the particle soup yeah that
has gravity but doesn't interact
electromagnetically or only very weakly
and so just it's all right so that
that's a model though you're right so
that's a model which is kind of I would
said the Baseline model the people
assume that and I don't have a problem
with it but if anything happens to that
model it gets shown it can't be true
people oh then there is no dark matter
no there's still dark it is a
measurement in the universe we just
misnamed it yeah I agree the measurement
is just galaxies spin round too fast but
too fast there it is or the way they
Collide and and so on there's quite a
lot of independent measurements of this
thing so tell me about Gra I mean is
that a real particle I think most
physicists would say that quantum
mechanics requires is is the base is the
base
Theory I think the reason I'm careful is
because there is some people who would
say general relativity is is a thing
space time is a real thing and all that
but but I think generally most people
would say quantum mechanics is
underlining and that that would if you
have an interaction in other words
quantum physics is foundational yeah to
the universe in ways that even general
relativity would not be yeah so we we
talk about this later but the idea that
space and time or space time emerge from
a quantum theory is very fashionable at
the moment partly because of the study
of black holes so we could talk about
that but so so given that then you so I
I should say just for people who are
watching and listening that um so how
would we picture the electromagnetic
force in particle physics so you know
that if you put like charges together
they repel and and so on so so what's
happening there or if you bring magnets
together right they repel each other
everybody knows if the North Pole
together and they repel so what's
happening in particle physics terms you
you picture that as the exchange of a
photon it's a particle of light goes
from one particle to the other and
essentially carries the force so that's
that's what our particle physicist would
picture a that force all forces have we
successfully applied that to gravity no
so that's the point so so so so but you
the give me a more resonant no the very
the very
strong I suppose I'm trying to find the
right word for it I think it's that's
why I said conviction it's almost I
don't know if any physicists who would
disagree with because if you can't fold
it into the quantum world you don't
really have a right to start looking for
a graviton because you're going to say
the graviton is the mediating particle
yes so it's the way the photon is the
med particle so and that's um I I think
I don't think you'd find anyone who
would disagree with that statement okay
although I don't think you would
although it is true to say that because
gravity is so weak so this is the other
thing to say it is tremendously weak
compared to the other three forces of
nature of which electrom magnetism is
one here I tell people you've surely
done this in class they say how weak is
gravity well I can pick something up off
the floor against the wishes of Earth
exactly yeah yeah the whole earth is
pulling on this ball and I can just pick
it up off and and kick kick it and
you're using electromagnetism that's
what's happening so your muscles and all
that thing so this is all
electromagnetic force which completely
destroys as you said the gravitational
force um but gravity is only additive so
it only adds up in the universe so is a
do is the dominant force on Cosmic
distance scales that's the point about
gravity here's a calculation I haven't
verified but it sounded legit uh very
verifiable I just never I was too lazy
that uh if you take like the space
shuttle in its Glory Days and you take
one remove the electrons from one cubic
centimeter in the nose of the main tank
and take all those electrons and put it
at the base of the Launchpad it could
would not be able to launch the
attraction between the electrons at the
base of the launch pad and the net
positive charge at the top right yeah is
enough to prevent it from launching yeah
that's a cool idea I could see that that
would be yeah yeah actually would yeah
borrow a whole so it probably yeah it's
not a realistic experiment but to get
some sense of the forces involved yeah
that's a really nice okay so gravity is
weak that somehow bails you out of this
problem well it just means that you
can't we don't have experimental access
to them okay because it's so weak I
agree so whereas we do have experimental
access to photons yeah unless you could
potentially have access if there were
extra dimensions in the universe that
are configured in the right way
physicist always throwing in extra
Dimensions whenever you need it you know
it is interesting though that that
string theory Works in 10 dimensions and
only 10 Dimensions mathematically so
that's um an interesting observation
right so I don't I don't I don't have
the background to be an authentic drink
Theory skeptic but I know physicists who
are and so I don't yeah I think there I
mean it depends I think it depends what
you mean by String Theory I mean there
was that if you go back you know a few
decades you talk to Brian Green for
example and when he started working in
this area he would he's a friend of Star
Talk he been onest several times he
would have um it's great but the elegant
universe is a beautiful description of
string theory and and so I think the
idea initially with the Hope was that
you'd have a theory and you could write
it down it's a theory of everything and
it would predict the universe as we see
it and then you go home and done and I
think that's gone as a as an idea but
the the the the basic idea of these I
mean why is it called string theory is
because particles are not point likee
the these strings are like little string
little loops and and but that idea I
think is still at the foundation of most
modern theoretical physics in this area
but it's got much more complicated and
it's been much harder I think the
initial idea that you could just predict
everything from one number maybe has
gone away one simple equation on one
line but there is tremendous progress
being made in in string theory so it's
it's it's not gone away it's just become
more complicated I would say well thanks
for catching me up on this I at this
conference you're giving a a talk on
black holes yeah and there was some
recent announcement the biggest jet from
a black hole ever discovered ever yeah
ever uh I I when I was asked about it by
the Press I simply said there's always a
biggest jet in the universe and so now
this one is that the A380 okay airb A380
it's a fantastic a did I under sell the
significance of this huge jet so what if
it's the biggest one unless there's some
interesting physics that's coming out of
it the area that I have I share a PhD
student who's working in the area is
more is more theoretical it's about
Quantum information the way the
information behaves inside and outside
of black hole what happens to things
that fall in but um in terms of the
astrophysical work that if you go back
you know not long ago we didn't really
have any observation of how uh things
behave in the vicinity of black holes
and so I would put it in that box we've
got several observations now we've got
the radio telescope observations from
The Event Horizon collaboration that are
shown us how the magnetic fields work
for example around the the the black
hole in the Milky Way we've got these
Jets which are giving you access to the
magnetic structure presumably in the way
that they thank you for putting it in
that context now I can understand it
broadens the astrophysical data set yeah
on which we
can sharpen our hypotheses for what's
going on yeah because they're hard
things to observe and of course you
can't observe the interior because it's
inside this thing called The Event
Horizon but what you can do and we are
doing is observe the way that material
behaves in the vicinity of them or what
the other remarkable thing we've been
able to do in the last few years is
watch them Collide and see how the
ripples in the fabric of the universe
come out and we can detect those ripples
so all these things are allowing us to
probe these objects by and it's worth
remembering that they were present they
were
described um non-spinning ones were
described fully by the work that Carl
swell did in in
1916 so months after Einstein had
published the theory of general
relativity he didn't know it at the time
but his the the mathematical descrip
description he found which describes how
space and time are distorted in the
presence of a star a non-spinning star
is kind of important um those those
fully describe a black hole that isn't
spinning remember correctly uh he would
die in the first World War I don't think
he made it out of the war no he died in
1916 so shortly after not not in action
he not in action okay I think he died
from dis diseases that it was on the
Russian front okay it was yeah so War
related but not I think it was you would
argue War related uh yeah so we've got
you know more than a century of
mathematical foundation for this yeah
and then you go forward to with no data
no data no and then then then so it
takes another 50 years by the way for
someone to work out what it looks like
for a spinning one which is Roy Kerr
it's a famous ker solution but those two
solutions there they're in Einstein's
theory in some in a sense um and they
describe the black ho but um observing
them is something that we haven't been
able to do till recently so so in
multi-wave lengths as well yeah so so
now we have radio observations the
gravitational wave observations I'll
I'll be a little kinder to that well
because it's the way the thing is you as
you said right at the start science is
about yes having ideas building theories
and so on but it's it's really
fundamentally about testing those
theories yeah and so we can talk about
these theoretical object Jacks black
holes but really and they are rich
theoretically But ultimately you've got
to make observations and that's where
these Jets and and seeing how material
behaves it gives you access to the
magnetic fields and how the thing's
spinning and what it's that that's
important hey Star Talk fans I don't
know if you know this but the audio
version of the podcast actually posts a
week in advance of the video version and
you can get that in Spotify and apple
podcast and
most other podcast Outlets that are out
there multiple ways to ingest all that
is Cosmic on Star talk let's talk about
your work with the public you you said
earlier
you you share this commitment that binan
declared duty to bring science to the
public you you don't you not only talk
the talk you walk the walk and you have
spillage everywhere you know you get
given tours Public tours in in in
Australia across Europe uh and if I
remember correctly you're coming back to
the United States next spring to give a
tour across the country yeah yeah it's a
tour that um that that's been going on
for quite a long time it wasn't meant to
really but we've ended
up playing to over 400,000 people across
the world with this tour wait wait wait
you're not a musician you say playing
get your vocabulary I'm look I'm rock
and roll basically I always been so when
when
we we have five trucks and two tour
buses it's brilliant so I'm reliving My
Life as a so did I see a version of that
when you came to the city yeah it was
very early on just after it was just
after yeah you have these screens that
interlock and then the whole stage is is
yeah and that was a very early iteration
of this and so it's changed a lot before
I laid it to rest this tour and develop
another one I wanted to bring it back
here in the form that it is now which is
so radically different from what and and
it's you celebrating the universe with
and for the it is and the public it also
morphed into there's a version that I do
with the symphony orchestra which is
great fun so we did it at Sydney offer
house actually initially um last year
and it's a big Orchestra because it's 90
piece Symphony Orchestra because of the
music that that I chose and so the The
Reason by the way as a slight digression
it's part of this tour the classical
music is a big part of the tour so it
starts with calus's Fifth Symphony third
movement and that was because a
conductor friend of mine called Daniel
Harding I said to him what should
Stanley cubric have used in 2001 as a
joke like what should he have used we
immediately said seus Fifth Symphony and
it is it was written in 19 uh 15 same
year that general relativity was
published but it's the basis of almost
every science fiction theme you've ever
heard you hear it's beautiful and and uh
so the idea
which I've always strongly believed but
it came to my mind as I was doing this
tour is that what what if we're talking
about deeper philosophical questions
which are raised by cosmology I say
right at the start what does it mean to
live a finite fragile life in an
infinite Eternal Universe right is it
because it and and I say of course I
don't know the answer to that do that
uplift people or depress them well but
but it's that as you know the moment you
contemplate the Scale of the Universe
and I should say we don't know whether
it's infinite we don't know whether it's
Eternal right but but it could well be
infinite and eternal for all purposes it
kind of is right on a human to a human
scale yeah so so the immediately when
you contemplate the size and scale of
the universe you ask questions about our
place and quite vividly what does it
mean to live these little finite fragile
lives and so I think I try to approach
those questions and you realize or I
realize that there are other lights you
can shine on that problem and science is
a necessary bright and Vivid light that
casts a very well delineated Shadow
which is given us some obviously it's
the framework within which we operate
but there are other lights so I you
realize that Mara for example so we use
Mara in in the classical concerts Mara
thought a lot about what it means to
live a finite fragile life and he gave a
very eloquent answer many eloquent
answers in his Symphonies and he was
once asked by the way uh what what are
you trying to say what what's this
answer and he said well if I if I could
say it I would wouldn't have written the
music good answer you have this music
love that so so the music so the
composers that I chose and that part
they are in the the tour that we're
going to do NE this coming year NE next
April 2025 um they're in there as music
the the composers were chosen because
they explored this question and gave
very eloquent answers the the so so it's
it adds to I think the more
philosophical exploration of the
questions that raised by the signs
what's the name of the tour called
Horizons Horizons that's easy enough to
remember okay very cool but there's a
lot of black holes in it as well I
should say so it's an exploration of of
the ideas that I find black is a horizon
of its own they have Horizons yes but
but but also life in the universe the
origin evolution of Life speculations on
we could talk about speculations on how
many civilizations there might be as a
guest well this thing about life in the
universe you've done many many uh TV
series
and most recently one on the solar
system yeah where the search for life is
a main theme well yeah we just saw as we
speak last week the Europa Clipper
spacecraft was launched yes on the way
to Europa we have an entire show devoted
just to that we visited the jet
propulsion labs and saw felt the
excitement of everyone there it's great
isn't it it's the first spacecraft I've
seen major spacecraft being built so I
saw the Clipper and the thing is the
scale of that thing it's it's the
largest spacecraft isn't it that's ever
been sent into well if you add the so
the most massive here's it may be but
there's another important fact solar
panels have gotten more efficient in the
day back if you were going to explore
beyond the asteroid belt you couldn't
use solar panels the intensity of the
sun wasn't high enough this one has a
very Deployable large solar panel
that'll help it along without having to
rely entirely on the on the nuclear
Decay PL
yeah so it's a huge spacecraft and the
point is that Europa Jupiter's moon is a
prime candidate for for a habitable
world in the what we know almost
certainly I'm always the people who I
know work on the mission say don't say
we know we we're almost sure there's a
saltwater ocean below the surface I
think it's pretty indisputable now so
pretty sure it's there yeah but whatever
is the skepticism what would it be were
it not a glal ocean yeah it's very
difficult to because and that's from
many measurements made amonia I mean
there's not you know water molecule is
not rare yeah it looks like salt water
yeah and and we have a lot of
comparative planetology with is it the
Arctic when it freezes over you have
these chunks of ice that will break and
refreeze and readjust and and you can
compare the images and you'd think you
were looking at the frozen Arctic yeah
yeah so it it looks and there's more
water in that ocean
than all the oceans of the earth
combined geologically active there are
questions about how the ice cracks and
moves on the surface so it's a
fascinating Mission so that's Europa
Mars of course which You' probably
spoken about many times on this podcast
um Enceladus is another one Saturn's
moon even even out of Pluto I even the
ones we see the plumes of of geysers I
guess yeah yeah when at the right Sun
angle you can see who who took those
pictures that must must have been right
right right yeah so and also there's
some measurements from Cassini the
particles in those Jets of water which
are consistent with hydrothermal vent
activity on the floors and hydrothermal
vents are one of the plausible
candidates for the origin of life on
Earth yes so you seem to have everything
the one thing I think europa's got that
arguably nowhere else has is it looks
like that ocean has been there for many
billions of years that's the the
Baseline scenario and we evolve life in
less time than that here on Earth yeah
yeah present what 3.8 billion years ago
3.8 yeah yeah and the the other four and
a half billion years old so right yes so
so it looks like you have a habitat
that's been stable there and I think you
can't CL that with in fact you know it
was taught that it took about a half a
billion years on Earth to get life going
but we were able to revise that number
down because in the early Earth these
periods of heavy bombardment it's not
fair to start the clock while we're
still getting slammed by you know still
accreting leftover rocks from the solar
system as the temperature of the surface
of the Earth is high enough to prevent
complex molecules give us a chance
please so the the periods of bombardment
subside Earth surface cools now start
the clock and then it's about 100 100
million years yeah yeah so that's like
that yeah which is one of the reasons I
think that I think if you speak to many
biologists they would say that might
suggest that given the right conditions
then whatever the origin of life is
there's a reasonable probability given
the right conditions because it happened
quickly here right so but that now
that's not that's not definitive in any
sense but certainly tempting to go there
but then but what I find very
interesting then is though when you ask
okay but when did life get more complex
than a single cell you're you're then I
don't think there's any evidence in the
fossil record back Beyond about 600
million years ago that took a while yeah
we we as single cell creatures three
billion years yeah plus but it seems so
I think people who think about this
problem are honest about that and so in
the search for life on other planets
we're really looking for single cell
organism well it would be it would be
remarkable to see anything more complex
well it' be remarkable to see a single
cell because then you
know especially if it were biologically
different so you can really show that
it's got a different origin because it's
worth saying that on Mars the material
is exchanged between Earth and Mars so
it's not obvious yeah that you could and
you make all these points in your Series
right so where where where can people
find your series it's streaming I
presume yeah yeah we've got the new one
is just on the moment actually that's
what I'm saying the solar system so that
will appear on Apple I suppose at some
point and other places yeah I mean it's
the moment it's on the BBC so um and
it's streaming on the BBC and then it
will head off around the world one of
the coolest things I think about Europa
is that the the habitat that the
potential habitat requires Jupiter
because the the heating it's liquid
because of theing around a big but it
also seems to require well it requires
the other moons iio and ganim to keep it
in this orbital resonance which keeps
feeding the energy in from the
gravitational field the Family Affair
but it also might need the the the
material from the volcanoes of IO on the
surface of Europa because they might
provide the what what we call the
oxidant right so that so so life is so
you're saying that the an IO which is
badly stressed it's just one big volcano
there one big volcano so th it spews
volcanic substance yeah faster than
escape velocity apparently and then it
goes which lands on on EUR and it it
goes into Pathways that intersect other
moons Europa included you do this for a
billion years and then the
chemistry and then it gets iradi helps
out the chemistry yeah so we we one of
the theories that that I've spoken to
people on the clip emission said is that
that's part of the battery of life that
chemistry so life I can't remember who
said it but he said life it was someone
said it's life it's an electron looking
for a place to land that's what life is
it's just in one way you can see life is
electrons moving around but that means
you need the chemistry but to is that
all we are just electrons looking for a
place to land well that's that's whatt
I'd rather be Dust in the Wind whatever
all we are so so but I find that
wonderful because then you've got this
habitat which is a system and as you
said comparative planetology you
mentioned earlier it's also true of
Earth isn't it you you can't understand
Earth without understanding the system
the solar system you need to understand
the moon and how it stabilizes the spin
axis and you need to understand of
course the sun and the way it interacts
with Earth and so on I'm a few years
your senior I don't know if you would
remember this but I defitely do the era
where no one was thinking or caring
about moons yeah in the solar system you
know we had a we have a dead Moon
orbiting us oddly large but fine let's
go look at the planets yeah and so every
Mission out to the planets we the they
looked over their shoulder and found
moons which had way more geologic
diversity than anything we're finding on
the planet you know I found it
interesting because did you I mean when
you were in school did where were we pre
Voyage well Voyage it so I'm pre Voyager
and Voyager turned the moons into Worlds
yeah that's what happened yeah yeah so
the idea you have a habitable zone in a
solar system which is the The Zone
within which if you have a rocky planet
orbiting and everything's right then and
the atmosphere is right you could have
the conditions to support life on the
surface liquid water let's say and so
and so that turn out to be needlessly
limiting well exactly so so so you just
say well Mars Earth Venus in our solar
system that's it but then you find reh
habitable zones around gas giants that
and that as you said that was the great
discovery of VO Voyager I would say yeah
began with voyager really for sure yeah
should be 19 early 1980s right so I'm
I'm delighted even as a particle
physicist you get to also platform the
solar system because you you have the
name recognition was always but that's
why I said I started with astrophysics I
really just wanted to be an astronomer
so I've always been I've I've got a
telescope you confess to me I a safe
space to do that ended up in particle
physics it was almost so I was doing
astrophysics that's what I was doing and
I thought I want to be an astronomer we
University of Manchester has the jodell
bank radio telescope for example which
one of the big radio telescopes in the
world still and so I that wasn't the one
that discovered the first Pulsar was it
uh no that Cambridge CD CD J discovered
something else I mean just George bank
it's it was one of the first so it's
Pine it's one of the pioneering it's it
does a lot of the work work on the camp
pulsar and so on but uh it was uh so so
I thought I'd be an astronomer and I
have a telescope you that's what I do I
I sit there and in we accept you in the
club even though you you you drifted to
particle physics space expiration so
that's what all what but it was at
University I just got interested in
mathematics I didn't think I was very
good at mathematics at school and uh but
I found out if with a bit of practice
then I I enjoyed it so I ended up really
getting more into theoretical physics
and and went that way so that's why I
ended up in partical physics really but
then now of course I I've every every
opportunity I get I seem to drift back
because the universe is cool you know I
don't want to brag about the universe
but and black holes actually are where
they intersect they absolutely particle
physics and general
relativity astronomy and the Big Bang
itself course yeah yeah yeah yeah with
your particle physics hat where are we
with neutrinos now I thought with
they're sort of fully understood we
solved the nutrino problem in the Sun
that a Nobel Prize was given for that uh
is there anything left to discover about
this elusive particle that belongs in
the in the I say Tree of Life in the the
particle Tree of Life yeah I mean there
are neutrinos are fascinating things
that they're very very very they're
almost massless but not quite and that
matters that should ring bells you know
it's like why that's the thing about
science isn't it you go why is this
unusually light or maybe it isn't maybe
the other things are unusually heavy but
but but but it's telling us something
and it's only
neutrinos that how hard it is to
interact with them they gives me any
belief at all in some other set of
particles that might exist that we don't
interact with because neutrinos are our
own species well they interact through a
the weak Force they interact but that's
us that's our little world here right
any other symmetric particles there
other forces that mediate them is that
correct there would be so if you have um
sort of extensions to the standard model
of particle physics then you you can
have forces that change things into
other things and and so different forces
but as far as we know as far the zoo
that we have discovered is is described
by the three forces um the strong
nuclear force the weak nuclear force
electromagnetism and then hanging out
there as we've discussed is gravity in
in really a different framework at the
moment so I Coral Steve ber in elevator
one day and
uh and you know physicist I'm telling
you I'm telling the audience particle
physicist one of the greats yeah and he
went to my high school let me allow me
to add one of wi Nobel laurates from my
high school and I
said how can you live with yourself at
night given how many particles there are
come on there's like I lost count what
what what does what does this mean about
our universe and he said it's not how
many particles there
are it's how many laws we have that
describe them all yeah and it's only
just a few yeah I thought damn good
answer yeah he's I remember Steven Weber
good answer I I think I'm right in
quoting him as saying that he almost
wish black holes didn't exist because
they're so perplexing that it would be
just easier and he was kind of joking of
course because physicists love a mystery
but he was almost like this is too
difficult there too bizarre maybe nature
doesn't make them oh I got so see see
he's he's invoking human limitations on
the capacity of kind of joke and he was
just saying these things are so baffling
and so weird in some ways I'd rather
they weren't there you know did he say
that in his old age so that he was
getting tired of solving the universe he
was joking so we're still trying to
explore neutrinos and as I understand
there's a new nutrino experiment that
just there came online I mean there are
several I mean I so the I mean what the
fundamental question they they do seem
that the reason we're interested in them
just we're interested in them because
they're three of the 12 fundamental
particles right so so we are made of
basically three particles that's us and
electrons protons neutrons uh well no so
so the protons and neutrons are made of
quarks oh so okay quarks down let let's
start from the we're made of atoms you
can start with we're made of atoms and
we ATS in Greek means indivisible yeah
that's what that word means yeah and and
I it is remarkable by the way you say
the the Greeks 2,000 years ago uh we
only discovered that the structure of
atoms in the 20th century or there ads
existed well yeah it was up for debates
the turn of the 20th century it was one
of the debates in science is there such
a thing as an atom yeah it's incredible
incredible yeah yeah yeah and Einstein
indeed in 1905 one of his famous papers
was on brownie in motion which one of
the three famous papers in that year one
of the other one was special relativity
and the other one when he got the Nobel
Prize for was the photo electric effects
the third one Einstein we should just
retroactively give him like a dozen
Nobel prizes it's astonishing he didn't
get the Nobel Prize for relativity you
got it for basically the foundation to
Quantum Mechanics yeah we we discovered
that matters made of atoms and then we
very quickly discover after that that
the atom is a electrons initially we
have this almost solar system like model
that it's a a nucleus a dense nucleus
with an electron going around it and
then we discover the nucleus is made of
protons and neutrons that's 1930s by the
way by orbit model is still the the
symbol for an atom yeah you know yeah
the atomic because it's classic you know
but that's Adams look nothing like that
no no no and so then quantum mechanics
comes in tells you you can't have that
because charged particles moving around
in the vicinity of other charged
particles radiate energy away and they
wouldn't be stable and that was known of
course um and so then you find that the
nucleus is made of prot and neutrons and
as I said the neutron it's a 1930s
Discovery so we're not that long ago I'm
amazed when so much you know we're now
in the
Centennial decade of the discovery of
quantum physics back in the
1920s and the whole 1920s was done
before we discovered the new
that's crazy yeah it's it's it's almost
living it is living memory for some
people just about this okay so let's get
back to the fundamental particles then
then we discovered that the protons and
neutrons are made of quarks quarks so
they are as far as we can tell Point
like objects so they're fundamental they
won't be but as far as we can tell they
are experimentally so we have the photon
the electron well let's the matter
particles so we have so the up and down
quarks make up protons and neutrons so
proton is is two ups and a down and a
neutron is two downs and an up got it
and we have two quarks per energy
stratum here correct well so then so
then we discovered so we had this we
have this nice thing so we have the
electron as you said the up and down
quark and then the thing called the
electron
neutrino which we so we just talked
about NEOS so only four fundamental
particles in anything we know or care
about so we have four of them yep that's
it and then we have so I can construct
you out of these particles if I had the
the
recip but then so we have four of them
so so that's there's four of them and
then the for is that that mediate the
interactions right okay and which we can
also think of as being carried by
particles as we said we have the photon
partic the electromagnetic force we have
the w and z bosons which do the weak
nuclear force and the gluons which the
strong nuclear force and stick the
quarks name gluons GL okay and and so
that's it it seems except that there are
two copies of those that are identical
except they're more massive so the so
there's there's the Str the charm and
strange quarks and the muon and the M
neutrino that's another family that's
nothing that's the next level up in
energy they're more massive more massive
okay okay so you have the charm and
strange and the muan and the Muno and
then you have another one yeah which are
the bottom and top or sometimes called
Beauty and Truth depending on how you
want to do it the quarks and then the
TOA and the to neutrino and that's it as
far as we can tell so that those are the
M 4812 fundamental particles and their
antimatter counterparts yeah and then
the antimatter counterparts and so that
that why we don't know so why there are
three and with with experimentally
proven really with some very small
caveats only three generations only
three families of these things
is there reason for there to be only
three could there be five 10 so we don't
know it must be something to do with the
underlying it looks like a periodic
table so remember you go back to men
mendal and the periodic table what what
how do you understand that pattern in
the in the chemical properties of the of
the elements you understand it when you
know that everything's made of atoms
yeah I mean the chemist arranged it but
didn't have any understanding of it no
quantum physics well well you need to
know the structure you need to know that
there's a nucleus and there's you know
hydrogen's got one electron and helium's
got two and carbon how can we only get
you so far yeah so so you you understand
chemistry you understand the pattern
when you understand the building blocks
okay so we don't know why that pattern
is there but it's clearly telling us
about the building blocks or the
underlying Theory which we don't know so
it's one of the great Mysteries so so
this so that's the the the zoo of
particles as we know and then there's
the higs and just to be clear when I
attacked Steven Weinberg in the elevator
uh most of the particle identities I was
referencing are different combinations
of different quirks yeah come together
yeah so all these like you said in the
f50s and people were discovering all
these things and they're different
combinations of ups and downs and
strange and charm and and and bottom and
you know and so on so they exist in our
universe but again they're made of the
more
fundamental so so basically the these
things that the proton and neutron
they're kind analogous to an atom in a
way so so they're a thing they're quite
a big things in particle physics and
they have an internal structure and and
one yeah and one of the things that I
was involved in that we did back in
Hamburg all those years ago was we were
mapping the structure of the proton so
we we we're saying what what is in the
proton how does it work maing the
interior structure of the proton and we
need that we needed that for the LHC so
we need because we Collide protons
together so so we have very detailed
maps if you like they call structure
functions but they're maps of the of the
proton well
thank you pleasure for joining me I I
always love talking to you being we're
just like we're Kindred Spirits in this
world and I wish you great success with
your spring tour does it go beyond the
United States is it a world tour it has
been a world tour we've been to I don't
know 20 or 30 countries I said we we
we're probably approaching half a
million people who've come to okay so so
that's the that we're we're at the at
the end really of this one and so I just
wanted to bring it back here it's
changed so much we could started in the
states actually with it in its Proto
form and now and now I just I I've loved
doing it so much and I just wanted to
bring I just like the idea that a
science talk is being given but there
are trucks that have to unload the
staging for it it's Pro it's proper rock
and roll I got Ries I've got everything
do you have a Tor T-shirt with on it
yeah oh yeah all right I should have
brought one to one of those shirts oh my
god oh we've got everything and we've
done so many many shows I I how many it
is 150 200 they don't all fit on one
t-shirt so so we got different t-shirts
for different regions of the the world
physics takes the world uh very good
Brian again thanks for being on the show
this has been an exclusive conversation
between me and my good friend Brian Cox
from the UK who's coming
Stateside with a tour and we're going to
look for the solar system on should be
Rand yeah if does it BBC how many how
many episodes is it five five episodes
we'll look forward all right I this has
been star talk I'm your host Neil
degrass Tyson as always keep looking up
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