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30:34
šļø Did China Cripple Operation Sindoor? | Pravin Sawhney x Mani Shankar Aiyar | Ep 34
Mani Shankar Aiyar
·
May 10, 2026
Open on YouTube
Transcript
0:00
Namaskar. On the first anniversary of
0:03
operation Sindur, in this episode of
0:06
Manikibat Sunnit Kasad, we ask the
0:10
unasked question. Did China
0:14
operation Sindur? The context of this
0:17
question is China's first official
0:21
statement in its state-run TV channel
0:25
where it has affirmed that in kinetic
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0:28
combat operation Sindur brought China
0:32
decisively on Pakistan's side. To assist
0:35
us in exploring this angle, we've
0:38
requested our old friend Pravin Sony,
0:41
editor of Force magazine, to explain to
0:44
us the significance of China's official
0:47
confirmation that Chinese made a
0:50
Chinese-made fighter J10CE
0:54
shot down at least one Rafal. Do you sir
0:58
endorse this claim?
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1:01
uh it's much more than that and uh
1:03
you've asked a very relevant question
1:04
and this is a question that everybody
1:07
needs to think very deep about and the
1:09
question is that Changdu Aviation of
1:13
China they are the people who have made
1:15
this aircraft G10 and the engineers from
1:19
the Changdu research center that means
1:22
the people who understand the nuts and
1:24
bolts who understand the software
1:26
everything they were physically present
1:31
Yes, with
1:31
>> during the war.
1:32
>> That's right. With the Pakistanis, the
1:35
Pakistan air force, they were physically
1:37
there and that changes the game
1:39
entirely.
1:40
>> But were they participating in the war?
1:42
>> Yes, they were participating in the war
1:44
and that is what I want to explain so
1:46
that the viewers understand what we are
1:49
up against. So they were participating
1:52
in the war and whereas the Pakistan Air
1:54
Force pilots, they were focusing on the
1:57
flight.
1:59
What these engineers on the ground were
2:01
doing is they were focusing in is what
2:04
is called networks. Network basically
2:06
means I'll just come to that in a while
2:08
to explain network is a very critical
2:10
component of operations.
2:13
>> So what they were doing there is two
2:15
things. One what they did was before the
2:18
flight took over they did the
2:21
maintenance. Maintenance is very
2:23
important because we understand the
2:25
temperatures there they were touching
2:27
50Ā° centigrade
2:28
>> had the Chinese engineer has said that
2:31
they were sweating it out
2:32
>> that's right so with those temperatures
2:35
it was the job of the engineers and mind
2:37
you let me repeat that these are the
2:39
engineers from the Changu research
2:41
center they are not Pakistanis
2:44
>> so these were the people whose job was
2:46
to before the flight takes off to
2:48
maintain the integrity of the ISA radars
2:51
of the J10
2:52
and to maintain the integrity of the
2:54
electronic warfare which is about
2:56
jamming.
2:57
>> So that is called the active
2:59
electronically scanned array.
3:02
>> That's right. That's the ISA radar. So
3:04
that is one job they were doing and the
3:06
other job of course you know before the
3:08
flights takes off any problems
3:10
mechanical problems or any software
3:12
problems because these are those complex
3:14
machines.
3:15
>> The most important thing is to underline
3:18
software problems.
3:19
>> Absolutely. So this was the job before
3:21
the flight took off which is a very
3:23
critical job. Now once the flight took
3:25
off we were told and this was the
3:28
official briefing given by the Pakistan
3:30
air force senior officer a vice marshal
3:33
a man called orang Ahmed. He gave this
3:37
briefing on the 8th of March morning to
3:39
the international media where he spoke
3:41
about a new concept which they had tried
3:44
and they have done it successfully
3:46
called multi-dommain operations. In very
3:49
simple terms, what this is about is that
3:52
the J10 did not open its ISA radar. It
3:57
kept the radar shut.
3:59
>> Because radar can do two things. It is a
4:02
active radar also. That means it sends
4:04
the beams to the fighter of the Indian
4:07
side and the beams they bounce back but
4:10
Indian fighter will get to know that
4:13
enemy uh aircraft is here. So they kept
4:15
that off.
4:16
>> I see.
4:17
>> So what they had was a another radar
4:20
which is a passive radar which is called
4:22
the infrared tracking system. But I'll
4:24
just come to the point what it is about
4:27
that is about heat. That means when the
4:29
enemy aircraft is there, it is able to
4:31
detect the heat and say all right the
4:33
enemy aircraft is there. But when you
4:36
have your radar off, who gives you the
4:38
data then? That is the problem. So the
4:41
data was coming from another aircraft
4:44
which is the AEW which is the airborne
4:47
electronic airborne early warning and
4:49
control system. Now how it works is this
4:52
aircraft which had the radar rod is only
4:55
for tracking the targets and it is way
4:57
way way behind. So it gets the target
5:00
and after getting the target it has to
5:02
send that target data to the J10 pilot
5:06
and the J10 pilot does not have his
5:09
radar on but it has a very important
5:11
thing in the J10 what is called the SDR.
5:16
SDR is a softwaredefined radio and this
5:19
is where the engineers come in the
5:20
Chinese engineers. This is like the
5:23
brain of the aircraft and what it has in
5:26
it is it has a playlist of you know uh
5:31
various frequencies which can be changed
5:33
in split second.
5:35
>> Mhm.
5:35
>> Hundreds and hundreds of frequencies are
5:37
there and you have to maintain all that
5:39
and this is what is plugged in by those
5:41
engineers the ground engineers here. So
5:44
when you get that data, what the SDR
5:47
does is that it sees the data. It first
5:50
synchronizes, it checks the data with
5:52
what I said the infrared passive radar.
5:56
>> Oh, I see.
5:56
>> And says, "All right, this is fine." And
5:58
then that data is sent to the mission
6:01
computer where the pilot is sitting with
6:03
all the controls in front of him
6:04
>> in the plane.
6:05
>> In the plane, SDR is in the plane. So to
6:08
get that data from there and to ensure
6:11
the integrity of the data that there is
6:13
no jamming attack by the Indian side all
6:16
this is the job of the engineers on the
6:19
ground
6:19
>> who put the SDR there
6:22
>> and the Chinese are sitting there
6:23
>> it's right there
6:25
>> that is it man that is my question the
6:27
Chinese are sitting there they did not
6:30
suddenly drop from the sky and sit there
6:32
with the Pakistani engineers or defense
6:35
personnel so under what arrange
6:37
arrangement was this done and how was it
6:41
time that they were there at that time.
6:43
Of course, we had given them warning.
6:44
There was a big gap after the Pelgam uh
6:47
terror strike and the beginning of our
6:49
attack under operation Synindur. So they
6:52
had enough time to call the Chinese but
6:54
they can't suddenly pick up the phone
6:56
and say you know the India is going to
6:58
attack us you come. So under what
6:59
arrangement were they there? What
7:01
training was given to the Pakistani
7:03
counterpart? You know you've asked an
7:04
excellent question
7:05
>> and one more question to that and did we
7:08
know or because our air atache was not
7:11
there did we not know
7:13
>> you know you've asked an excellent
7:14
question so the story goes back to
7:17
actually 5th August 2019
7:20
>> oh that's a good seven years almost
7:23
that's also the date on which Kashmir's
7:25
special state
7:26
>> I'm talking of that
7:27
>> I see I see
7:28
>> so the significance is what he has said
7:31
and after that all the leaders of chi
7:34
Chinese leaders have publicly been
7:35
saying that we support Pakistan's
7:38
sovereignity and territorial integrity
7:40
and how you support that is by training
7:43
the two air forces had been doing
7:45
complex advanced training where all
7:48
these things were done and after as you
7:50
rightly pointed out the pelgam attack
7:53
happened on 22nd of April it is after
7:56
that the all the engineers and they are
7:58
all pals because they work together
8:00
>> they've been doing these exercises
8:02
together. So they came here and and it's
8:06
>> came here to Pakistan.
8:08
>> The Pakistan air force their bases from
8:10
where their G10s were to G sorry J10s
8:14
and the JF17 you know two aircrafts but
8:17
I'm referring right now only to the J10s
8:20
of their aircraft where even the air
8:23
chief was there. So air chief was
8:25
maintaining the targets, maintaining the
8:27
flight, seeing it happens and the key
8:30
job of ensuring that the PL15
8:34
air-to-air missile because how it works
8:37
is as I said the there is the AEC
8:40
tracker aircraft takes the data sends it
8:44
to J10. J10 has the SDR the
8:47
softwaredefined radio. It checks the
8:49
integrity with the passive radar which
8:51
is on and then sends that to the and all
8:54
happens in split second sends it to the
8:56
mission controller mission computers of
8:59
the pilot. So pilot sees all that okay
9:02
this is the data and then he presses the
9:04
button and the PL15 goes and it goes
9:08
bang to the target and that is how it
9:10
is. That's what they have, the engineers
9:12
have described it on this CCTV channel,
9:15
>> right?
9:15
>> As that is the Chinese official channel
9:17
as the outstanding results they obtained
9:21
in air-to-air combat.
9:23
>> Now let me add something more.
9:26
See, we have to face reality and the
9:29
reality is that Indian side did not give
9:32
their uh explanation of what happened on
9:35
the night of 6th 7th May when the air
9:37
battle happened. Now they have gone the
9:40
other side and they have gone and told
9:42
the international media that we were
9:45
basically focusing on the Rafals
9:48
and they have claimed that four Rafals
9:50
were brought down.
9:52
>> Officially they haven't they haven't
9:54
officially claimed that have they?
9:56
>> No officially they in fact their prime
9:58
minister he has said at the podium of
10:00
the United Nations that we brought down
10:02
seven aircraft of the Indian side.
10:04
>> But did he say for Rafale? No for Rafal
10:07
was said by the official who is
10:10
leftenant general kid he's a well-known
10:12
man he gave out even the numbers of the
10:15
aircraft so that is not the point this
10:17
is not what we are discussing
10:19
>> so just a minute so that means that even
10:21
though we will not confirm anything the
10:25
world thinks that some information has
10:26
been given
10:27
>> so as far as the world is concerned for
10:29
the first time it has happened that the
10:32
US Congress report that came out in
10:35
November 2025. It's a voluminous thing.
10:39
It clearly says that in the 4-day clash
10:41
that happened between India and
10:43
Pakistan, the Pakistan side did better
10:45
than the Indian side. This is officially
10:48
there in the US Congress report. Period.
10:51
>> But we are saying that we destroyed the
10:53
Pakistani air force
10:54
>> here. No, not we are not saying the air
10:55
force. Well, chief actually chief has
10:58
said again that's an interesting point.
11:00
Let's understand that also. After five
11:04
months in August of 2025,
11:07
five months have lapsed. Then the air
11:10
force chief in Bangalore when he was
11:12
giving a lecture at the end of the
11:14
lecture more like a afterthought
11:18
he said that we have downed five
11:20
fighters of the Pakistan air force and
11:23
then he said one fighter we took at 300
11:25
kilometers with a S400.
11:28
Now I have spoken to the Russian people
11:31
who are actually involved in S400 who
11:34
understand S400 and they very
11:37
categorically told me that yes the way
11:40
it works is that it has a range and we
11:43
have the missiles we have got a missile
11:45
from the from this Alma the people who
11:48
make the S400 the longest range missile
11:52
is 400 kilometers and you know the cost
11:55
of the missile it's $5 million
11:58
one missile. So but that besides so
12:02
let's say we fired that this guy told me
12:05
very clearly that yes on the radar you
12:07
see a blip that means the enemy aircraft
12:10
is there or some hostile thing is there
12:12
and you fire a missile there are three
12:14
categories of missile 150 range 250
12:17
range and then 400 range. So you decide
12:19
what you want to fire we are saying that
12:21
we fired at 300 so that means we use the
12:23
400 the highest missile range. So you
12:27
fire that but he told me categorically
12:29
there is no confirmation
12:31
>> confirmation the target.
12:32
>> So the point to make here is that
12:36
airto-air battles
12:38
>> see when you use S400 then it is from
12:42
ground to air
12:44
>> airtoair battle between India and
12:46
Pakistan will be absolutely critical in
12:49
the next war that happens. This is the
12:52
important thing and this is where coming
12:54
back to where we started. The Chinese
12:57
have not only given them the aircraft,
13:00
Chinese have not only done the training
13:02
with them. Chinese have not only helped
13:04
them with one of the important
13:06
institutions which was created under the
13:08
Pakistan Air Force called Sent AIC,
13:12
Center for Artificial Intelligence and
13:13
Computing, which is about putting
13:15
artificial intelligence in electronic
13:17
warfare which is jamming. Now same thing
13:20
they use it in the SDR what I was
13:22
talking about.
13:23
>> Yeah. So the point is they are
13:25
physically present there because for
13:28
them here is another point for them it
13:32
was a validation of their what they had
13:35
made and with that validation
13:37
>> for the Pakistanis for the Chinese
13:39
>> it's a validation that the J10 has
13:42
performed successfully PL15 has
13:45
performed successfully and therefore it
13:48
is logical to conclude that now they
13:51
will give that top-of-the-line equipment
13:54
to Pakistan having learned the lessons
13:56
of operation Sundur that Pakistan has
13:58
learned and they will also be there with
14:01
all the systems
14:02
>> but Mr. Modi is saying that he has put
14:06
down a new normal and what I would like
14:09
to discuss with you is the consequences
14:12
of this new normal.
14:13
>> So you see uh this is actually a thing
14:16
which should have been thought more
14:18
deeply and I'll tell you why. First
14:20
thing is that Prime Minister Modi, he
14:22
has not ended operation Synindur. He has
14:24
put it on pause.
14:25
>> That's right.
14:25
>> That means any side can lift the pause.
14:28
>> I would rather say that he has kept it
14:31
openended rather than put it on pause.
14:33
That's right.
14:34
>> In other words, it can be activated at a
14:36
second's notice.
14:37
>> That is from India's side. Our side.
14:39
>> No, no, no. Even their side. I'll just
14:40
come to that.
14:41
>> No, but what Mr. Modi says does not
14:44
apply to the other side. Why should they
14:46
stick by that? We are keeping operation
14:49
Sindur open.
14:51
>> But they are impacted.
14:52
>> They have not said anything to that.
14:54
>> No, no, no.
14:54
>> They will react only. No,
14:56
>> no, no, no. See how it will work is that
14:58
Prime Minister Modi has said that this
15:00
is a pause and then as he pointed out a
15:03
new normal has been created. And what is
15:05
the new normal? The new normal is that
15:07
any act of terror will be considered an
15:10
act of war.
15:11
>> Right?
15:11
>> Number one. Number two, India will not
15:14
make a distinction between terrorist and
15:16
their sponsors.
15:18
>> In other words, all this counterterror
15:20
operations that we have done in the past
15:23
which is the 2019 Balakort air force was
15:25
used for counterterror operations,
15:27
Synindur which was used for
15:28
counterterror targeting. Now it will be
15:31
no distinction between the terrorist and
15:34
the sponsors. And then he has said that
15:37
we will not be deterred by the nuclear
15:39
red lines of Pakistan and we'll be
15:41
proactive. Now if you put all this
15:44
together what he's saying is the word is
15:47
proactive. Now even they accuse us they
15:51
they say that we are doing terrorism on
15:54
their territory. They say it openly in
15:57
Baluchasthan they say we are doing this
15:59
we are creating trouble for them. So
16:01
they can also be proactive
16:04
and then we are saying that now the next
16:06
time it'll be a full-fledged war because
16:09
if you're talking of the sponsors you
16:11
are talking of Pakistan army you're
16:12
talking of Pakistan military the game
16:14
changes
16:16
see and this is what the world has heard
16:19
now when the game changes if you allow
16:21
me how will the game change let's look
16:23
at that how it'll change is that we saw
16:26
in Sud
16:28
both sides we fired missiles We fired
16:31
drones. See, normally the all the wars
16:33
that have happened between India and
16:35
Pakistan, there has been a contact line.
16:38
Our army here, their army there, the
16:40
armies fought, then they took some land,
16:41
went in, air force helped over. Because
16:45
in this we saw that the missiles and the
16:47
drones they did depth targeting.
16:51
When you do deep targeting, that means
16:52
the battlefield, the front, the rear,
16:55
the laterals are becoming meaningless.
16:57
>> Yeah. It's all a battlefield. It's all a
16:59
battlefield and therefore what what it
17:02
means is that the threshold of a
17:04
conventional war it comes down
17:07
>> and then what happens is if you look at
17:09
the elongated geography of Pakistan and
17:12
you see high-profile targets including
17:14
the nuclear infrastructure
17:17
within range of our missiles
17:20
that means now they have to start
17:22
thinking about the nuclear thing also
17:24
that means the threshold of nuclear also
17:26
has come down So therefore the
17:29
corrective measure they have immediately
17:31
taken. What they have done is first of
17:34
all the army chief general aim
17:38
>> field he became field marshal but that
17:40
is not the point.
17:41
>> The point is he got an additional
17:43
appointment and the additional
17:45
appointment he's he's now the chief of
17:47
defense forces which means that he is
17:50
number one of the three. So whatever
17:53
discussion has to happen about war
17:55
options contingencies before the war
17:58
he'll take the decision of war and bang
18:01
then not only that then nuclear arsenal
18:05
which is what they call the strategic
18:06
plans division it used to be in a
18:09
structure where which was headed by the
18:11
prime minister of Pakistan now that is
18:14
over
18:15
>> it's headed by field
18:18
he has created a new organization put
18:20
the strategic plans division
18:22
So the point I'm making is that in terms
18:25
of decision making after India has
18:27
declared that if there is another major
18:29
terrorist attack it to be a full-scale
18:31
war they are ready for war and the
18:33
Chinese are there to help them with the
18:34
state-of-art equipment and let me add
18:36
one more point do you think this will
18:39
figure this new uh concatenation of
18:44
events will figure in Trump's
18:47
discussions with she next week in
18:50
Beijing? No, because as far as they are
18:53
concerned, they have far too many things
18:55
to sort out the
18:56
>> meaning the Americans.
18:58
>> No. Uh he's talking of President Trump
19:00
is visiting China as of now on the 14th
19:03
of May just 2 three days away and he'll
19:05
be meeting President Xiing there.
19:08
>> Now the key thing is that the Chinese
19:10
first of all what they always tell the
19:12
Americans that please understand our red
19:14
line that is Taiwan.
19:16
So that is one thing. Then there are
19:19
issues of trade, there are issues of
19:20
investments, there are issues of rare
19:22
earth. So even there is issues of
19:24
artificial intelligence. So all these
19:26
things in fact they've had a couple of
19:28
meetings and recently there was a
19:30
delegation a Republican delegation had
19:32
gone and visited China as as sort of a
19:35
preparation to the visit of President
19:37
Trump. They have gone there and they
19:39
have had a discussion with their prime
19:41
minister Nikqua and all these things are
19:43
on the table. the war in West Asia, the
19:46
war in Ukraine. I mean these are the
19:48
issues as far as President Xi is
19:51
concerned. He has made it very clear
19:53
that you do anything with Pakistan, I
19:56
stand with Pakistan physically. Now that
19:59
is standing with Pakisting
20:02
was key hardware, we have given
20:05
hardware, we have given this, we have no
20:08
you are not only see maintenance on the
20:11
ground you are doing for them and you
20:13
are basically preparing them for their
20:16
operations. you being China
20:17
>> China and you are assisting them in the
20:20
operations that means you are part of
20:23
them
20:24
>> quite
20:24
>> so as far as and then of course they'll
20:26
be discussing West Asia the war in West
20:29
Asia uh which you know is extremely
20:31
important subject
20:32
>> so where does that leave India
20:36
>> see as far as India is concerned
20:38
President Trump repeatedly says my
20:41
favorite field marshal
20:42
>> yes
20:43
>> the profile of has gone up of field
20:45
marshal as Munir and This is a very
20:47
serious thing. I mean I have no issues
20:48
with that. But if you see from the
20:51
government of point of view, it's a very
20:53
serious thing and this is not something
20:55
which will go away in a hurry for two
20:57
reasons.
20:57
>> But is there not something contradictory
20:59
about Trump insisting that India
21:02
decrease its arms purchases from Russia,
21:05
increase them with the US when the his
21:07
favorite field marshall has 80% of his
21:11
military stock coming in from China. So
21:14
how does he reconcile these two?
21:16
>> No, no, no. We have given him on a
21:18
platter. You see on 13th of February
21:21
2025 within days of the inauguration of
21:23
President Trump, Prime Minister Modi was
21:25
there. Yes.
21:26
>> And we signed a joint statement. And the
21:28
key thing in the joint statement is
21:30
mission 500. What that means is our
21:32
present bilateral trade stands at 139
21:35
billion. By 2030 which is around the
21:38
corner we'll make it five 500 bilateral
21:41
trade 500 billion dollars
21:43
>> that can only come through oil and
21:45
military equipment.
21:47
>> Exactly. And technology of course lot of
21:49
technology is coming the fourth
21:50
generation technologies. So basically we
21:53
have mortgaged everything our trade
21:56
entire thing to the Americans and the
21:58
Americans on the other hand are now
22:01
having making peace with China. So our
22:04
strategic role which used to be there as
22:07
long as the Biden administration was
22:09
there starting from the Obama
22:11
administration that we were supposed to
22:13
provide be the military bullwark for
22:15
America in the Indian Ocean region
22:17
against China that is over
22:20
>> on the other hand on the other hand
22:23
President Trump has given a elevated
22:25
role it's not President Trump alone the
22:28
Russians the Chinese then the GCC
22:30
countries six countries the other
22:32
countries in the region Pakistan is a
22:34
star.
22:36
>> It is not a facilitator. It is not a it
22:39
is not only a mediator. It will now
22:41
provide security to the GCC countries
22:45
and two countries. One it already gives
22:47
to Saudi Arabia and Qatar is already in
22:49
talks with them and except for UAE I see
22:52
the others also falling in line over a
22:54
period of time.
22:55
>> But do they have the military capacity
22:57
to do this?
22:57
>> Of course they have.
22:58
>> Okay. But so this tectonic shift in
23:02
geopolitics is in favor of Pakistan
23:07
>> again
23:07
>> or has been taken advantage of by
23:09
Pakistan.
23:10
>> Again again again again you know uh
23:13
I hope you don't mind. Of course not. We
23:16
we now have to think of win-win.
23:19
>> If Pakistan wins we have to see how we
23:22
also win along with Pakistan.
23:24
>> Ah that's
23:24
>> this is the way I see things.
23:26
>> Win win along with Pakistan. Absolutely.
23:28
Not against Pakistan.
23:29
>> No, no, no, no. See, the whole idea, the
23:32
whole idea should be that in South Asia,
23:36
how do we reduce our tensions with
23:38
China? How do we reduce our tensions
23:40
with Pakistan? We need to cut our
23:43
budgets, we need to cut our troops. And
23:45
we have to see anybody who has a cursory
23:48
look of the map realizes that when you
23:51
look at Eurasia, these three blobs, they
23:55
become one. Central Asia, West Asia,
23:57
South Asia and as far as Pakistan is
24:00
concerned, it is there now in South
24:02
Asia, it is there in West Asia and it is
24:05
very much in Central Asia also. So the
24:07
point I'm making is it is very good. The
24:09
connectivity is there because it helps
24:11
them. But we also should make take
24:14
advantage of that and both the Chinese
24:16
and the Pakistanis
24:18
want to talk with India. So what you're
24:21
saying is that in foreign policy it is
24:24
imperative that we open engagement, open
24:28
negotiations, open dialogue with both
24:31
Pakistan and with China which we have
24:34
been rejecting.
24:35
>> Absolutely. Because this is the new
24:37
world order the new world. Sorry please.
24:40
>> But it is uh very muddled and confusing.
24:43
There's Pakistan and China together
24:46
militarily
24:47
and we are supposed to buy 500 billion
24:51
or whatever worth of equipment etc from
24:54
the US. So it should be uh logically
24:58
Pakistan and China, India and US but US
25:01
is making friends with China. So we are
25:03
just dumped by all sides. No, no, no,
25:06
no,
25:06
>> no, no, no, no. Because the new world
25:08
order that we are talking about uh where
25:11
this year we have the BRICS presidency
25:14
and in the BRICS presidency the three
25:17
key players are basically Russia, India
25:20
and China RI IC.
25:22
>> Yeah. Except that India under Mr. Modi
25:25
does not even have the courage to
25:27
convene a meeting a summit. It's not
25:30
doing it. I I I you know what
25:32
>> because the so many members of bricks in
25:35
fact I think all members other than us
25:37
the principal members have a view on
25:40
Palestine have a view on Iran which we
25:43
are not willing to affirm
25:45
>> so basically we are caught in a bind
25:47
because of various
25:48
>> I think that's what she meant
25:50
>> no I agree entirely with you but if we
25:52
are to take advantage of geopolitics see
25:55
when we say and the people say they say
25:59
that India's big uh you know advantage
26:02
is 1.4 4 billion people they actually
26:05
become a liability if there is no peace
26:08
if there is no education is if there is
26:10
no development and for development you
26:13
need peace and for peace if you see
26:16
before prime minister Modi came to power
26:18
in 2014 we were talking with Pakistan
26:21
there are problems and I'm sure they can
26:23
be ironed out today and with China we
26:26
had see the border problem is there so
26:29
we have to find a way out for the border
26:31
problem and one way out is that if you
26:34
make peace with Pakistan, Pakistan is
26:36
willing to make peace and what are we
26:38
saying to Pakistan? We will only talk on
26:41
two issues on terror and on how to get
26:45
back Pakistan occupied Kashmir.
26:48
They are saying talk on Kashmir and
26:51
let's talk on terror also because they
26:53
also have a gr on. They have more than
26:55
once said they'll talk on terror and on
26:57
Kashmir under General Perves Busharav
27:00
there was what he called the fourpoint
27:03
formula. So it is possible for us to
27:07
tackle even the most difficult questions
27:09
but we can't tackle even the easiest one
27:12
if we don't engage with them. Now 40
27:15
years ago nearly Rajiv Gandhi set a
27:19
grand example when within weeks of each
27:23
other in the same month of December 1988
27:27
he first went to China then went to
27:29
Pakistan the first Indian prime minister
27:32
to visit China in three decades and the
27:34
first Indian prime minister to visit
27:36
Pakistan in nearly four decades and
27:40
something started. Now we seem to be
27:44
completely stranded and we are just
27:46
caught in our own cut coils.
27:48
>> Now now can I just add one point what
27:50
you said is perfectly I mean nobody can
27:52
disagree with that. Just add
27:53
>> except Mr. Modi.
27:54
>> No no no
27:55
>> except except to make a point that you
27:58
see the world has changed today. When I
28:01
say the world has changed it's a
28:02
multipolar world. We you are talking of
28:05
the uniolar world. Multipolar world with
28:07
three great powers China, Russia and
28:09
America. Three powers are there. There's
28:12
not one power. And so the world has
28:14
changed. There is a new world order that
28:15
we are talking about. Not to go in the
28:17
details of that. This is the opportunity
28:19
for us to actually talk with Pakistan
28:23
because it is win-win for us. Win-win in
28:26
terms of peace. Win-win in terms of
28:29
connectivity. Now, why are we always
28:31
listening to Trump? He tells us, "All
28:33
right, you can buy oil from Russia, not
28:36
buy oil from Russia. You can trade with
28:38
Iran, you can't trade with Iran. You
28:40
can't go to Chabar port. We have
28:41
invested in Chabar port. Now we want to
28:44
have connectivity what we call the West
28:46
Asia quad. And what is the West Asia
28:48
chord? The West Asia chord is I2 U2. I2
28:52
is India uh Israel and U2 is America and
28:57
UAE. And this is a non-starter
29:00
today in the war and the new framework
29:03
that is coming up. You see what will
29:05
happen is that in the next uh three or
29:09
or maybe less a new regional framework
29:12
will come in come in West Asia and this
29:15
is the reason that recently it was in
29:17
the news that the Iranian foreign
29:19
minister he traveled to Russia and he
29:22
traveled to China because in the
29:23
multipolar world he has support of these
29:26
two great powers and what did he talk
29:28
there he was talking about the new
29:30
regional framework
29:32
>> I would call it the Asian resurgence.
29:35
>> Yeah,
29:35
>> this is the new Asia.
29:37
>> So here Pakistan will have a big role
29:40
and we have good relations with Iran.
29:43
You know the reason why Iran today
29:45
supports us, it is not really in my
29:48
assessment the the government, it is the
29:51
people of India.
29:52
>> We have that centuries old
29:55
>> relationship. Going back to
29:57
>> so coming back to uh some you know point
29:59
to make a point is that we need to have
30:03
peace we need to have development we
30:05
need to have connectivity win-win with
30:07
Pakistan normalization of ties with
30:10
China something that I keep saying
30:12
>> om shanti shanti shanti
30:16
this is the message of India
30:18
civilization which seems which modern
30:20
India 21st India 2026 India seems to
30:25
have totally forgotten.
30:28
>> Thank you very much.
30:28
>> Thank you so much.
30:30
>> Thank you Sudith.
30:32
Namaskar.
— end of transcript —
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