[00:00] Namaskar. On the first anniversary of
[00:03] operation Sindur, in this episode of
[00:06] Manikibat Sunnit Kasad, we ask the
[00:10] unasked question. Did China
[00:14] operation Sindur? The context of this
[00:17] question is China's first official
[00:21] statement in its state-run TV channel
[00:25] where it has affirmed that in kinetic
[00:28] combat operation Sindur brought China
[00:32] decisively on Pakistan's side. To assist
[00:35] us in exploring this angle, we've
[00:38] requested our old friend Pravin Sony,
[00:41] editor of Force magazine, to explain to
[00:44] us the significance of China's official
[00:47] confirmation that Chinese made a
[00:50] Chinese-made fighter J10CE
[00:54] shot down at least one Rafal. Do you sir
[00:58] endorse this claim?
[01:01] uh it's much more than that and uh
[01:03] you've asked a very relevant question
[01:04] and this is a question that everybody
[01:07] needs to think very deep about and the
[01:09] question is that Changdu Aviation of
[01:13] China they are the people who have made
[01:15] this aircraft G10 and the engineers from
[01:19] the Changdu research center that means
[01:22] the people who understand the nuts and
[01:24] bolts who understand the software
[01:26] everything they were physically present
[01:31] Yes, with
[01:31] >> during the war.
[01:32] >> That's right. With the Pakistanis, the
[01:35] Pakistan air force, they were physically
[01:37] there and that changes the game
[01:39] entirely.
[01:40] >> But were they participating in the war?
[01:42] >> Yes, they were participating in the war
[01:44] and that is what I want to explain so
[01:46] that the viewers understand what we are
[01:49] up against. So they were participating
[01:52] in the war and whereas the Pakistan Air
[01:54] Force pilots, they were focusing on the
[01:57] flight.
[01:59] What these engineers on the ground were
[02:01] doing is they were focusing in is what
[02:04] is called networks. Network basically
[02:06] means I'll just come to that in a while
[02:08] to explain network is a very critical
[02:10] component of operations.
[02:13] >> So what they were doing there is two
[02:15] things. One what they did was before the
[02:18] flight took over they did the
[02:21] maintenance. Maintenance is very
[02:23] important because we understand the
[02:25] temperatures there they were touching
[02:27] 50° centigrade
[02:28] >> had the Chinese engineer has said that
[02:31] they were sweating it out
[02:32] >> that's right so with those temperatures
[02:35] it was the job of the engineers and mind
[02:37] you let me repeat that these are the
[02:39] engineers from the Changu research
[02:41] center they are not Pakistanis
[02:44] >> so these were the people whose job was
[02:46] to before the flight takes off to
[02:48] maintain the integrity of the ISA radars
[02:51] of the J10
[02:52] and to maintain the integrity of the
[02:54] electronic warfare which is about
[02:56] jamming.
[02:57] >> So that is called the active
[02:59] electronically scanned array.
[03:02] >> That's right. That's the ISA radar. So
[03:04] that is one job they were doing and the
[03:06] other job of course you know before the
[03:08] flights takes off any problems
[03:10] mechanical problems or any software
[03:12] problems because these are those complex
[03:14] machines.
[03:15] >> The most important thing is to underline
[03:18] software problems.
[03:19] >> Absolutely. So this was the job before
[03:21] the flight took off which is a very
[03:23] critical job. Now once the flight took
[03:25] off we were told and this was the
[03:28] official briefing given by the Pakistan
[03:30] air force senior officer a vice marshal
[03:33] a man called orang Ahmed. He gave this
[03:37] briefing on the 8th of March morning to
[03:39] the international media where he spoke
[03:41] about a new concept which they had tried
[03:44] and they have done it successfully
[03:46] called multi-dommain operations. In very
[03:49] simple terms, what this is about is that
[03:52] the J10 did not open its ISA radar. It
[03:57] kept the radar shut.
[03:59] >> Because radar can do two things. It is a
[04:02] active radar also. That means it sends
[04:04] the beams to the fighter of the Indian
[04:07] side and the beams they bounce back but
[04:10] Indian fighter will get to know that
[04:13] enemy uh aircraft is here. So they kept
[04:15] that off.
[04:16] >> I see.
[04:17] >> So what they had was a another radar
[04:20] which is a passive radar which is called
[04:22] the infrared tracking system. But I'll
[04:24] just come to the point what it is about
[04:27] that is about heat. That means when the
[04:29] enemy aircraft is there, it is able to
[04:31] detect the heat and say all right the
[04:33] enemy aircraft is there. But when you
[04:36] have your radar off, who gives you the
[04:38] data then? That is the problem. So the
[04:41] data was coming from another aircraft
[04:44] which is the AEW which is the airborne
[04:47] electronic airborne early warning and
[04:49] control system. Now how it works is this
[04:52] aircraft which had the radar rod is only
[04:55] for tracking the targets and it is way
[04:57] way way behind. So it gets the target
[05:00] and after getting the target it has to
[05:02] send that target data to the J10 pilot
[05:06] and the J10 pilot does not have his
[05:09] radar on but it has a very important
[05:11] thing in the J10 what is called the SDR.
[05:16] SDR is a softwaredefined radio and this
[05:19] is where the engineers come in the
[05:20] Chinese engineers. This is like the
[05:23] brain of the aircraft and what it has in
[05:26] it is it has a playlist of you know uh
[05:31] various frequencies which can be changed
[05:33] in split second.
[05:35] >> Mhm.
[05:35] >> Hundreds and hundreds of frequencies are
[05:37] there and you have to maintain all that
[05:39] and this is what is plugged in by those
[05:41] engineers the ground engineers here. So
[05:44] when you get that data, what the SDR
[05:47] does is that it sees the data. It first
[05:50] synchronizes, it checks the data with
[05:52] what I said the infrared passive radar.
[05:56] >> Oh, I see.
[05:56] >> And says, "All right, this is fine." And
[05:58] then that data is sent to the mission
[06:01] computer where the pilot is sitting with
[06:03] all the controls in front of him
[06:04] >> in the plane.
[06:05] >> In the plane, SDR is in the plane. So to
[06:08] get that data from there and to ensure
[06:11] the integrity of the data that there is
[06:13] no jamming attack by the Indian side all
[06:16] this is the job of the engineers on the
[06:19] ground
[06:19] >> who put the SDR there
[06:22] >> and the Chinese are sitting there
[06:23] >> it's right there
[06:25] >> that is it man that is my question the
[06:27] Chinese are sitting there they did not
[06:30] suddenly drop from the sky and sit there
[06:32] with the Pakistani engineers or defense
[06:35] personnel so under what arrange
[06:37] arrangement was this done and how was it
[06:41] time that they were there at that time.
[06:43] Of course, we had given them warning.
[06:44] There was a big gap after the Pelgam uh
[06:47] terror strike and the beginning of our
[06:49] attack under operation Synindur. So they
[06:52] had enough time to call the Chinese but
[06:54] they can't suddenly pick up the phone
[06:56] and say you know the India is going to
[06:58] attack us you come. So under what
[06:59] arrangement were they there? What
[07:01] training was given to the Pakistani
[07:03] counterpart? You know you've asked an
[07:04] excellent question
[07:05] >> and one more question to that and did we
[07:08] know or because our air atache was not
[07:11] there did we not know
[07:13] >> you know you've asked an excellent
[07:14] question so the story goes back to
[07:17] actually 5th August 2019
[07:20] >> oh that's a good seven years almost
[07:23] that's also the date on which Kashmir's
[07:25] special state
[07:26] >> I'm talking of that
[07:27] >> I see I see
[07:28] >> so the significance is what he has said
[07:31] and after that all the leaders of chi
[07:34] Chinese leaders have publicly been
[07:35] saying that we support Pakistan's
[07:38] sovereignity and territorial integrity
[07:40] and how you support that is by training
[07:43] the two air forces had been doing
[07:45] complex advanced training where all
[07:48] these things were done and after as you
[07:50] rightly pointed out the pelgam attack
[07:53] happened on 22nd of April it is after
[07:56] that the all the engineers and they are
[07:58] all pals because they work together
[08:00] >> they've been doing these exercises
[08:02] together. So they came here and and it's
[08:06] >> came here to Pakistan.
[08:08] >> The Pakistan air force their bases from
[08:10] where their G10s were to G sorry J10s
[08:14] and the JF17 you know two aircrafts but
[08:17] I'm referring right now only to the J10s
[08:20] of their aircraft where even the air
[08:23] chief was there. So air chief was
[08:25] maintaining the targets, maintaining the
[08:27] flight, seeing it happens and the key
[08:30] job of ensuring that the PL15
[08:34] air-to-air missile because how it works
[08:37] is as I said the there is the AEC
[08:40] tracker aircraft takes the data sends it
[08:44] to J10. J10 has the SDR the
[08:47] softwaredefined radio. It checks the
[08:49] integrity with the passive radar which
[08:51] is on and then sends that to the and all
[08:54] happens in split second sends it to the
[08:56] mission controller mission computers of
[08:59] the pilot. So pilot sees all that okay
[09:02] this is the data and then he presses the
[09:04] button and the PL15 goes and it goes
[09:08] bang to the target and that is how it
[09:10] is. That's what they have, the engineers
[09:12] have described it on this CCTV channel,
[09:15] >> right?
[09:15] >> As that is the Chinese official channel
[09:17] as the outstanding results they obtained
[09:21] in air-to-air combat.
[09:23] >> Now let me add something more.
[09:26] See, we have to face reality and the
[09:29] reality is that Indian side did not give
[09:32] their uh explanation of what happened on
[09:35] the night of 6th 7th May when the air
[09:37] battle happened. Now they have gone the
[09:40] other side and they have gone and told
[09:42] the international media that we were
[09:45] basically focusing on the Rafals
[09:48] and they have claimed that four Rafals
[09:50] were brought down.
[09:52] >> Officially they haven't they haven't
[09:54] officially claimed that have they?
[09:56] >> No officially they in fact their prime
[09:58] minister he has said at the podium of
[10:00] the United Nations that we brought down
[10:02] seven aircraft of the Indian side.
[10:04] >> But did he say for Rafale? No for Rafal
[10:07] was said by the official who is
[10:10] leftenant general kid he's a well-known
[10:12] man he gave out even the numbers of the
[10:15] aircraft so that is not the point this
[10:17] is not what we are discussing
[10:19] >> so just a minute so that means that even
[10:21] though we will not confirm anything the
[10:25] world thinks that some information has
[10:26] been given
[10:27] >> so as far as the world is concerned for
[10:29] the first time it has happened that the
[10:32] US Congress report that came out in
[10:35] November 2025. It's a voluminous thing.
[10:39] It clearly says that in the 4-day clash
[10:41] that happened between India and
[10:43] Pakistan, the Pakistan side did better
[10:45] than the Indian side. This is officially
[10:48] there in the US Congress report. Period.
[10:51] >> But we are saying that we destroyed the
[10:53] Pakistani air force
[10:54] >> here. No, not we are not saying the air
[10:55] force. Well, chief actually chief has
[10:58] said again that's an interesting point.
[11:00] Let's understand that also. After five
[11:04] months in August of 2025,
[11:07] five months have lapsed. Then the air
[11:10] force chief in Bangalore when he was
[11:12] giving a lecture at the end of the
[11:14] lecture more like a afterthought
[11:18] he said that we have downed five
[11:20] fighters of the Pakistan air force and
[11:23] then he said one fighter we took at 300
[11:25] kilometers with a S400.
[11:28] Now I have spoken to the Russian people
[11:31] who are actually involved in S400 who
[11:34] understand S400 and they very
[11:37] categorically told me that yes the way
[11:40] it works is that it has a range and we
[11:43] have the missiles we have got a missile
[11:45] from the from this Alma the people who
[11:48] make the S400 the longest range missile
[11:52] is 400 kilometers and you know the cost
[11:55] of the missile it's $5 million
[11:58] one missile. So but that besides so
[12:02] let's say we fired that this guy told me
[12:05] very clearly that yes on the radar you
[12:07] see a blip that means the enemy aircraft
[12:10] is there or some hostile thing is there
[12:12] and you fire a missile there are three
[12:14] categories of missile 150 range 250
[12:17] range and then 400 range. So you decide
[12:19] what you want to fire we are saying that
[12:21] we fired at 300 so that means we use the
[12:23] 400 the highest missile range. So you
[12:27] fire that but he told me categorically
[12:29] there is no confirmation
[12:31] >> confirmation the target.
[12:32] >> So the point to make here is that
[12:36] airto-air battles
[12:38] >> see when you use S400 then it is from
[12:42] ground to air
[12:44] >> airtoair battle between India and
[12:46] Pakistan will be absolutely critical in
[12:49] the next war that happens. This is the
[12:52] important thing and this is where coming
[12:54] back to where we started. The Chinese
[12:57] have not only given them the aircraft,
[13:00] Chinese have not only done the training
[13:02] with them. Chinese have not only helped
[13:04] them with one of the important
[13:06] institutions which was created under the
[13:08] Pakistan Air Force called Sent AIC,
[13:12] Center for Artificial Intelligence and
[13:13] Computing, which is about putting
[13:15] artificial intelligence in electronic
[13:17] warfare which is jamming. Now same thing
[13:20] they use it in the SDR what I was
[13:22] talking about.
[13:23] >> Yeah. So the point is they are
[13:25] physically present there because for
[13:28] them here is another point for them it
[13:32] was a validation of their what they had
[13:35] made and with that validation
[13:37] >> for the Pakistanis for the Chinese
[13:39] >> it's a validation that the J10 has
[13:42] performed successfully PL15 has
[13:45] performed successfully and therefore it
[13:48] is logical to conclude that now they
[13:51] will give that top-of-the-line equipment
[13:54] to Pakistan having learned the lessons
[13:56] of operation Sundur that Pakistan has
[13:58] learned and they will also be there with
[14:01] all the systems
[14:02] >> but Mr. Modi is saying that he has put
[14:06] down a new normal and what I would like
[14:09] to discuss with you is the consequences
[14:12] of this new normal.
[14:13] >> So you see uh this is actually a thing
[14:16] which should have been thought more
[14:18] deeply and I'll tell you why. First
[14:20] thing is that Prime Minister Modi, he
[14:22] has not ended operation Synindur. He has
[14:24] put it on pause.
[14:25] >> That's right.
[14:25] >> That means any side can lift the pause.
[14:28] >> I would rather say that he has kept it
[14:31] openended rather than put it on pause.
[14:33] That's right.
[14:34] >> In other words, it can be activated at a
[14:36] second's notice.
[14:37] >> That is from India's side. Our side.
[14:39] >> No, no, no. Even their side. I'll just
[14:40] come to that.
[14:41] >> No, but what Mr. Modi says does not
[14:44] apply to the other side. Why should they
[14:46] stick by that? We are keeping operation
[14:49] Sindur open.
[14:51] >> But they are impacted.
[14:52] >> They have not said anything to that.
[14:54] >> No, no, no.
[14:54] >> They will react only. No,
[14:56] >> no, no, no. See how it will work is that
[14:58] Prime Minister Modi has said that this
[15:00] is a pause and then as he pointed out a
[15:03] new normal has been created. And what is
[15:05] the new normal? The new normal is that
[15:07] any act of terror will be considered an
[15:10] act of war.
[15:11] >> Right?
[15:11] >> Number one. Number two, India will not
[15:14] make a distinction between terrorist and
[15:16] their sponsors.
[15:18] >> In other words, all this counterterror
[15:20] operations that we have done in the past
[15:23] which is the 2019 Balakort air force was
[15:25] used for counterterror operations,
[15:27] Synindur which was used for
[15:28] counterterror targeting. Now it will be
[15:31] no distinction between the terrorist and
[15:34] the sponsors. And then he has said that
[15:37] we will not be deterred by the nuclear
[15:39] red lines of Pakistan and we'll be
[15:41] proactive. Now if you put all this
[15:44] together what he's saying is the word is
[15:47] proactive. Now even they accuse us they
[15:51] they say that we are doing terrorism on
[15:54] their territory. They say it openly in
[15:57] Baluchasthan they say we are doing this
[15:59] we are creating trouble for them. So
[16:01] they can also be proactive
[16:04] and then we are saying that now the next
[16:06] time it'll be a full-fledged war because
[16:09] if you're talking of the sponsors you
[16:11] are talking of Pakistan army you're
[16:12] talking of Pakistan military the game
[16:14] changes
[16:16] see and this is what the world has heard
[16:19] now when the game changes if you allow
[16:21] me how will the game change let's look
[16:23] at that how it'll change is that we saw
[16:26] in Sud
[16:28] both sides we fired missiles We fired
[16:31] drones. See, normally the all the wars
[16:33] that have happened between India and
[16:35] Pakistan, there has been a contact line.
[16:38] Our army here, their army there, the
[16:40] armies fought, then they took some land,
[16:41] went in, air force helped over. Because
[16:45] in this we saw that the missiles and the
[16:47] drones they did depth targeting.
[16:51] When you do deep targeting, that means
[16:52] the battlefield, the front, the rear,
[16:55] the laterals are becoming meaningless.
[16:57] >> Yeah. It's all a battlefield. It's all a
[16:59] battlefield and therefore what what it
[17:02] means is that the threshold of a
[17:04] conventional war it comes down
[17:07] >> and then what happens is if you look at
[17:09] the elongated geography of Pakistan and
[17:12] you see high-profile targets including
[17:14] the nuclear infrastructure
[17:17] within range of our missiles
[17:20] that means now they have to start
[17:22] thinking about the nuclear thing also
[17:24] that means the threshold of nuclear also
[17:26] has come down So therefore the
[17:29] corrective measure they have immediately
[17:31] taken. What they have done is first of
[17:34] all the army chief general aim
[17:38] >> field he became field marshal but that
[17:40] is not the point.
[17:41] >> The point is he got an additional
[17:43] appointment and the additional
[17:45] appointment he's he's now the chief of
[17:47] defense forces which means that he is
[17:50] number one of the three. So whatever
[17:53] discussion has to happen about war
[17:55] options contingencies before the war
[17:58] he'll take the decision of war and bang
[18:01] then not only that then nuclear arsenal
[18:05] which is what they call the strategic
[18:06] plans division it used to be in a
[18:09] structure where which was headed by the
[18:11] prime minister of Pakistan now that is
[18:14] over
[18:15] >> it's headed by field
[18:18] he has created a new organization put
[18:20] the strategic plans division
[18:22] So the point I'm making is that in terms
[18:25] of decision making after India has
[18:27] declared that if there is another major
[18:29] terrorist attack it to be a full-scale
[18:31] war they are ready for war and the
[18:33] Chinese are there to help them with the
[18:34] state-of-art equipment and let me add
[18:36] one more point do you think this will
[18:39] figure this new uh concatenation of
[18:44] events will figure in Trump's
[18:47] discussions with she next week in
[18:50] Beijing? No, because as far as they are
[18:53] concerned, they have far too many things
[18:55] to sort out the
[18:56] >> meaning the Americans.
[18:58] >> No. Uh he's talking of President Trump
[19:00] is visiting China as of now on the 14th
[19:03] of May just 2 three days away and he'll
[19:05] be meeting President Xiing there.
[19:08] >> Now the key thing is that the Chinese
[19:10] first of all what they always tell the
[19:12] Americans that please understand our red
[19:14] line that is Taiwan.
[19:16] So that is one thing. Then there are
[19:19] issues of trade, there are issues of
[19:20] investments, there are issues of rare
[19:22] earth. So even there is issues of
[19:24] artificial intelligence. So all these
[19:26] things in fact they've had a couple of
[19:28] meetings and recently there was a
[19:30] delegation a Republican delegation had
[19:32] gone and visited China as as sort of a
[19:35] preparation to the visit of President
[19:37] Trump. They have gone there and they
[19:39] have had a discussion with their prime
[19:41] minister Nikqua and all these things are
[19:43] on the table. the war in West Asia, the
[19:46] war in Ukraine. I mean these are the
[19:48] issues as far as President Xi is
[19:51] concerned. He has made it very clear
[19:53] that you do anything with Pakistan, I
[19:56] stand with Pakistan physically. Now that
[19:59] is standing with Pakisting
[20:02] was key hardware, we have given
[20:05] hardware, we have given this, we have no
[20:08] you are not only see maintenance on the
[20:11] ground you are doing for them and you
[20:13] are basically preparing them for their
[20:16] operations. you being China
[20:17] >> China and you are assisting them in the
[20:20] operations that means you are part of
[20:23] them
[20:24] >> quite
[20:24] >> so as far as and then of course they'll
[20:26] be discussing West Asia the war in West
[20:29] Asia uh which you know is extremely
[20:31] important subject
[20:32] >> so where does that leave India
[20:36] >> see as far as India is concerned
[20:38] President Trump repeatedly says my
[20:41] favorite field marshal
[20:42] >> yes
[20:43] >> the profile of has gone up of field
[20:45] marshal as Munir and This is a very
[20:47] serious thing. I mean I have no issues
[20:48] with that. But if you see from the
[20:51] government of point of view, it's a very
[20:53] serious thing and this is not something
[20:55] which will go away in a hurry for two
[20:57] reasons.
[20:57] >> But is there not something contradictory
[20:59] about Trump insisting that India
[21:02] decrease its arms purchases from Russia,
[21:05] increase them with the US when the his
[21:07] favorite field marshall has 80% of his
[21:11] military stock coming in from China. So
[21:14] how does he reconcile these two?
[21:16] >> No, no, no. We have given him on a
[21:18] platter. You see on 13th of February
[21:21] 2025 within days of the inauguration of
[21:23] President Trump, Prime Minister Modi was
[21:25] there. Yes.
[21:26] >> And we signed a joint statement. And the
[21:28] key thing in the joint statement is
[21:30] mission 500. What that means is our
[21:32] present bilateral trade stands at 139
[21:35] billion. By 2030 which is around the
[21:38] corner we'll make it five 500 bilateral
[21:41] trade 500 billion dollars
[21:43] >> that can only come through oil and
[21:45] military equipment.
[21:47] >> Exactly. And technology of course lot of
[21:49] technology is coming the fourth
[21:50] generation technologies. So basically we
[21:53] have mortgaged everything our trade
[21:56] entire thing to the Americans and the
[21:58] Americans on the other hand are now
[22:01] having making peace with China. So our
[22:04] strategic role which used to be there as
[22:07] long as the Biden administration was
[22:09] there starting from the Obama
[22:11] administration that we were supposed to
[22:13] provide be the military bullwark for
[22:15] America in the Indian Ocean region
[22:17] against China that is over
[22:20] >> on the other hand on the other hand
[22:23] President Trump has given a elevated
[22:25] role it's not President Trump alone the
[22:28] Russians the Chinese then the GCC
[22:30] countries six countries the other
[22:32] countries in the region Pakistan is a
[22:34] star.
[22:36] >> It is not a facilitator. It is not a it
[22:39] is not only a mediator. It will now
[22:41] provide security to the GCC countries
[22:45] and two countries. One it already gives
[22:47] to Saudi Arabia and Qatar is already in
[22:49] talks with them and except for UAE I see
[22:52] the others also falling in line over a
[22:54] period of time.
[22:55] >> But do they have the military capacity
[22:57] to do this?
[22:57] >> Of course they have.
[22:58] >> Okay. But so this tectonic shift in
[23:02] geopolitics is in favor of Pakistan
[23:07] >> again
[23:07] >> or has been taken advantage of by
[23:09] Pakistan.
[23:10] >> Again again again again you know uh
[23:13] I hope you don't mind. Of course not. We
[23:16] we now have to think of win-win.
[23:19] >> If Pakistan wins we have to see how we
[23:22] also win along with Pakistan.
[23:24] >> Ah that's
[23:24] >> this is the way I see things.
[23:26] >> Win win along with Pakistan. Absolutely.
[23:28] Not against Pakistan.
[23:29] >> No, no, no, no. See, the whole idea, the
[23:32] whole idea should be that in South Asia,
[23:36] how do we reduce our tensions with
[23:38] China? How do we reduce our tensions
[23:40] with Pakistan? We need to cut our
[23:43] budgets, we need to cut our troops. And
[23:45] we have to see anybody who has a cursory
[23:48] look of the map realizes that when you
[23:51] look at Eurasia, these three blobs, they
[23:55] become one. Central Asia, West Asia,
[23:57] South Asia and as far as Pakistan is
[24:00] concerned, it is there now in South
[24:02] Asia, it is there in West Asia and it is
[24:05] very much in Central Asia also. So the
[24:07] point I'm making is it is very good. The
[24:09] connectivity is there because it helps
[24:11] them. But we also should make take
[24:14] advantage of that and both the Chinese
[24:16] and the Pakistanis
[24:18] want to talk with India. So what you're
[24:21] saying is that in foreign policy it is
[24:24] imperative that we open engagement, open
[24:28] negotiations, open dialogue with both
[24:31] Pakistan and with China which we have
[24:34] been rejecting.
[24:35] >> Absolutely. Because this is the new
[24:37] world order the new world. Sorry please.
[24:40] >> But it is uh very muddled and confusing.
[24:43] There's Pakistan and China together
[24:46] militarily
[24:47] and we are supposed to buy 500 billion
[24:51] or whatever worth of equipment etc from
[24:54] the US. So it should be uh logically
[24:58] Pakistan and China, India and US but US
[25:01] is making friends with China. So we are
[25:03] just dumped by all sides. No, no, no,
[25:06] no,
[25:06] >> no, no, no, no. Because the new world
[25:08] order that we are talking about uh where
[25:11] this year we have the BRICS presidency
[25:14] and in the BRICS presidency the three
[25:17] key players are basically Russia, India
[25:20] and China RI IC.
[25:22] >> Yeah. Except that India under Mr. Modi
[25:25] does not even have the courage to
[25:27] convene a meeting a summit. It's not
[25:30] doing it. I I I you know what
[25:32] >> because the so many members of bricks in
[25:35] fact I think all members other than us
[25:37] the principal members have a view on
[25:40] Palestine have a view on Iran which we
[25:43] are not willing to affirm
[25:45] >> so basically we are caught in a bind
[25:47] because of various
[25:48] >> I think that's what she meant
[25:50] >> no I agree entirely with you but if we
[25:52] are to take advantage of geopolitics see
[25:55] when we say and the people say they say
[25:59] that India's big uh you know advantage
[26:02] is 1.4 4 billion people they actually
[26:05] become a liability if there is no peace
[26:08] if there is no education is if there is
[26:10] no development and for development you
[26:13] need peace and for peace if you see
[26:16] before prime minister Modi came to power
[26:18] in 2014 we were talking with Pakistan
[26:21] there are problems and I'm sure they can
[26:23] be ironed out today and with China we
[26:26] had see the border problem is there so
[26:29] we have to find a way out for the border
[26:31] problem and one way out is that if you
[26:34] make peace with Pakistan, Pakistan is
[26:36] willing to make peace and what are we
[26:38] saying to Pakistan? We will only talk on
[26:41] two issues on terror and on how to get
[26:45] back Pakistan occupied Kashmir.
[26:48] They are saying talk on Kashmir and
[26:51] let's talk on terror also because they
[26:53] also have a gr on. They have more than
[26:55] once said they'll talk on terror and on
[26:57] Kashmir under General Perves Busharav
[27:00] there was what he called the fourpoint
[27:03] formula. So it is possible for us to
[27:07] tackle even the most difficult questions
[27:09] but we can't tackle even the easiest one
[27:12] if we don't engage with them. Now 40
[27:15] years ago nearly Rajiv Gandhi set a
[27:19] grand example when within weeks of each
[27:23] other in the same month of December 1988
[27:27] he first went to China then went to
[27:29] Pakistan the first Indian prime minister
[27:32] to visit China in three decades and the
[27:34] first Indian prime minister to visit
[27:36] Pakistan in nearly four decades and
[27:40] something started. Now we seem to be
[27:44] completely stranded and we are just
[27:46] caught in our own cut coils.
[27:48] >> Now now can I just add one point what
[27:50] you said is perfectly I mean nobody can
[27:52] disagree with that. Just add
[27:53] >> except Mr. Modi.
[27:54] >> No no no
[27:55] >> except except to make a point that you
[27:58] see the world has changed today. When I
[28:01] say the world has changed it's a
[28:02] multipolar world. We you are talking of
[28:05] the uniolar world. Multipolar world with
[28:07] three great powers China, Russia and
[28:09] America. Three powers are there. There's
[28:12] not one power. And so the world has
[28:14] changed. There is a new world order that
[28:15] we are talking about. Not to go in the
[28:17] details of that. This is the opportunity
[28:19] for us to actually talk with Pakistan
[28:23] because it is win-win for us. Win-win in
[28:26] terms of peace. Win-win in terms of
[28:29] connectivity. Now, why are we always
[28:31] listening to Trump? He tells us, "All
[28:33] right, you can buy oil from Russia, not
[28:36] buy oil from Russia. You can trade with
[28:38] Iran, you can't trade with Iran. You
[28:40] can't go to Chabar port. We have
[28:41] invested in Chabar port. Now we want to
[28:44] have connectivity what we call the West
[28:46] Asia quad. And what is the West Asia
[28:48] chord? The West Asia chord is I2 U2. I2
[28:52] is India uh Israel and U2 is America and
[28:57] UAE. And this is a non-starter
[29:00] today in the war and the new framework
[29:03] that is coming up. You see what will
[29:05] happen is that in the next uh three or
[29:09] or maybe less a new regional framework
[29:12] will come in come in West Asia and this
[29:15] is the reason that recently it was in
[29:17] the news that the Iranian foreign
[29:19] minister he traveled to Russia and he
[29:22] traveled to China because in the
[29:23] multipolar world he has support of these
[29:26] two great powers and what did he talk
[29:28] there he was talking about the new
[29:30] regional framework
[29:32] >> I would call it the Asian resurgence.
[29:35] >> Yeah,
[29:35] >> this is the new Asia.
[29:37] >> So here Pakistan will have a big role
[29:40] and we have good relations with Iran.
[29:43] You know the reason why Iran today
[29:45] supports us, it is not really in my
[29:48] assessment the the government, it is the
[29:51] people of India.
[29:52] >> We have that centuries old
[29:55] >> relationship. Going back to
[29:57] >> so coming back to uh some you know point
[29:59] to make a point is that we need to have
[30:03] peace we need to have development we
[30:05] need to have connectivity win-win with
[30:07] Pakistan normalization of ties with
[30:10] China something that I keep saying
[30:12] >> om shanti shanti shanti
[30:16] this is the message of India
[30:18] civilization which seems which modern
[30:20] India 21st India 2026 India seems to
[30:25] have totally forgotten.
[30:28] >> Thank you very much.
[30:28] >> Thank you so much.
[30:30] >> Thank you Sudith.
[30:32] Namaskar.