Namaskar. On the first anniversary of
operation Sindur, in this episode of
Manikibat Sunnit Kasad, we ask the
unasked question. Did China
operation Sindur? The context of this
question is China's first official
statement in its state-run TV channel
where it has affirmed that in kinetic
combat operation Sindur brought China
decisively on Pakistan's side. To assist
us in exploring this angle, we've
requested our old friend Pravin Sony,
editor of Force magazine, to explain to
us the significance of China's official
confirmation that Chinese made a
Chinese-made fighter J10CE
shot down at least one Rafal. Do you sir
endorse this claim?
uh it's much more than that and uh
you've asked a very relevant question
and this is a question that everybody
needs to think very deep about and the
question is that Changdu Aviation of
China they are the people who have made
this aircraft G10 and the engineers from
the Changdu research center that means
the people who understand the nuts and
bolts who understand the software
everything they were physically present
Yes, with
>> during the war.
>> That's right. With the Pakistanis, the
Pakistan air force, they were physically
there and that changes the game
entirely.
>> But were they participating in the war?
>> Yes, they were participating in the war
and that is what I want to explain so
that the viewers understand what we are
up against. So they were participating
in the war and whereas the Pakistan Air
Force pilots, they were focusing on the
flight.
What these engineers on the ground were
doing is they were focusing in is what
is called networks. Network basically
means I'll just come to that in a while
to explain network is a very critical
component of operations.
>> So what they were doing there is two
things. One what they did was before the
flight took over they did the
maintenance. Maintenance is very
important because we understand the
temperatures there they were touching
50° centigrade
>> had the Chinese engineer has said that
they were sweating it out
>> that's right so with those temperatures
it was the job of the engineers and mind
you let me repeat that these are the
engineers from the Changu research
center they are not Pakistanis
>> so these were the people whose job was
to before the flight takes off to
maintain the integrity of the ISA radars
of the J10
and to maintain the integrity of the
electronic warfare which is about
jamming.
>> So that is called the active
electronically scanned array.
>> That's right. That's the ISA radar. So
that is one job they were doing and the
other job of course you know before the
flights takes off any problems
mechanical problems or any software
problems because these are those complex
machines.
>> The most important thing is to underline
software problems.
>> Absolutely. So this was the job before
the flight took off which is a very
critical job. Now once the flight took
off we were told and this was the
official briefing given by the Pakistan
air force senior officer a vice marshal
a man called orang Ahmed. He gave this
briefing on the 8th of March morning to
the international media where he spoke
about a new concept which they had tried
and they have done it successfully
called multi-dommain operations. In very
simple terms, what this is about is that
the J10 did not open its ISA radar. It
kept the radar shut.
>> Because radar can do two things. It is a
active radar also. That means it sends
the beams to the fighter of the Indian
side and the beams they bounce back but
Indian fighter will get to know that
enemy uh aircraft is here. So they kept
that off.
>> I see.
>> So what they had was a another radar
which is a passive radar which is called
the infrared tracking system. But I'll
just come to the point what it is about
that is about heat. That means when the
enemy aircraft is there, it is able to
detect the heat and say all right the
enemy aircraft is there. But when you
have your radar off, who gives you the
data then? That is the problem. So the
data was coming from another aircraft
which is the AEW which is the airborne
electronic airborne early warning and
control system. Now how it works is this
aircraft which had the radar rod is only
for tracking the targets and it is way
way way behind. So it gets the target
and after getting the target it has to
send that target data to the J10 pilot
and the J10 pilot does not have his
radar on but it has a very important
thing in the J10 what is called the SDR.
SDR is a softwaredefined radio and this
is where the engineers come in the
Chinese engineers. This is like the
brain of the aircraft and what it has in
it is it has a playlist of you know uh
various frequencies which can be changed
in split second.
>> Mhm.
>> Hundreds and hundreds of frequencies are
there and you have to maintain all that
and this is what is plugged in by those
engineers the ground engineers here. So
when you get that data, what the SDR
does is that it sees the data. It first
synchronizes, it checks the data with
what I said the infrared passive radar.
>> Oh, I see.
>> And says, "All right, this is fine." And
then that data is sent to the mission
computer where the pilot is sitting with
all the controls in front of him
>> in the plane.
>> In the plane, SDR is in the plane. So to
get that data from there and to ensure
the integrity of the data that there is
no jamming attack by the Indian side all
this is the job of the engineers on the
ground
>> who put the SDR there
>> and the Chinese are sitting there
>> it's right there
>> that is it man that is my question the
Chinese are sitting there they did not
suddenly drop from the sky and sit there
with the Pakistani engineers or defense
personnel so under what arrange
arrangement was this done and how was it
time that they were there at that time.
Of course, we had given them warning.
There was a big gap after the Pelgam uh
terror strike and the beginning of our
attack under operation Synindur. So they
had enough time to call the Chinese but
they can't suddenly pick up the phone
and say you know the India is going to
attack us you come. So under what
arrangement were they there? What
training was given to the Pakistani
counterpart? You know you've asked an
excellent question
>> and one more question to that and did we
know or because our air atache was not
there did we not know
>> you know you've asked an excellent
question so the story goes back to
actually 5th August 2019
>> oh that's a good seven years almost
that's also the date on which Kashmir's
special state
>> I'm talking of that
>> I see I see
>> so the significance is what he has said
and after that all the leaders of chi
Chinese leaders have publicly been
saying that we support Pakistan's
sovereignity and territorial integrity
and how you support that is by training
the two air forces had been doing
complex advanced training where all
these things were done and after as you
rightly pointed out the pelgam attack
happened on 22nd of April it is after
that the all the engineers and they are
all pals because they work together
>> they've been doing these exercises
together. So they came here and and it's
>> came here to Pakistan.
>> The Pakistan air force their bases from
where their G10s were to G sorry J10s
and the JF17 you know two aircrafts but
I'm referring right now only to the J10s
of their aircraft where even the air
chief was there. So air chief was
maintaining the targets, maintaining the
flight, seeing it happens and the key
job of ensuring that the PL15
air-to-air missile because how it works
is as I said the there is the AEC
tracker aircraft takes the data sends it
to J10. J10 has the SDR the
softwaredefined radio. It checks the
integrity with the passive radar which
is on and then sends that to the and all
happens in split second sends it to the
mission controller mission computers of
the pilot. So pilot sees all that okay
this is the data and then he presses the
button and the PL15 goes and it goes
bang to the target and that is how it
is. That's what they have, the engineers
have described it on this CCTV channel,
>> right?
>> As that is the Chinese official channel
as the outstanding results they obtained
in air-to-air combat.
>> Now let me add something more.
See, we have to face reality and the
reality is that Indian side did not give
their uh explanation of what happened on
the night of 6th 7th May when the air
battle happened. Now they have gone the
other side and they have gone and told
the international media that we were
basically focusing on the Rafals
and they have claimed that four Rafals
were brought down.
>> Officially they haven't they haven't
officially claimed that have they?
>> No officially they in fact their prime
minister he has said at the podium of
the United Nations that we brought down
seven aircraft of the Indian side.
>> But did he say for Rafale? No for Rafal
was said by the official who is
leftenant general kid he's a well-known
man he gave out even the numbers of the
aircraft so that is not the point this
is not what we are discussing
>> so just a minute so that means that even
though we will not confirm anything the
world thinks that some information has
been given
>> so as far as the world is concerned for
the first time it has happened that the
US Congress report that came out in
November 2025. It's a voluminous thing.
It clearly says that in the 4-day clash
that happened between India and
Pakistan, the Pakistan side did better
than the Indian side. This is officially
there in the US Congress report. Period.
>> But we are saying that we destroyed the
Pakistani air force
>> here. No, not we are not saying the air
force. Well, chief actually chief has
said again that's an interesting point.
Let's understand that also. After five
months in August of 2025,
five months have lapsed. Then the air
force chief in Bangalore when he was
giving a lecture at the end of the
lecture more like a afterthought
he said that we have downed five
fighters of the Pakistan air force and
then he said one fighter we took at 300
kilometers with a S400.
Now I have spoken to the Russian people
who are actually involved in S400 who
understand S400 and they very
categorically told me that yes the way
it works is that it has a range and we
have the missiles we have got a missile
from the from this Alma the people who
make the S400 the longest range missile
is 400 kilometers and you know the cost
of the missile it's $5 million
one missile. So but that besides so
let's say we fired that this guy told me
very clearly that yes on the radar you
see a blip that means the enemy aircraft
is there or some hostile thing is there
and you fire a missile there are three
categories of missile 150 range 250
range and then 400 range. So you decide
what you want to fire we are saying that
we fired at 300 so that means we use the
400 the highest missile range. So you
fire that but he told me categorically
there is no confirmation
>> confirmation the target.
>> So the point to make here is that
airto-air battles
>> see when you use S400 then it is from
ground to air
>> airtoair battle between India and
Pakistan will be absolutely critical in
the next war that happens. This is the
important thing and this is where coming
back to where we started. The Chinese
have not only given them the aircraft,
Chinese have not only done the training
with them. Chinese have not only helped
them with one of the important
institutions which was created under the
Pakistan Air Force called Sent AIC,
Center for Artificial Intelligence and
Computing, which is about putting
artificial intelligence in electronic
warfare which is jamming. Now same thing
they use it in the SDR what I was
talking about.
>> Yeah. So the point is they are
physically present there because for
them here is another point for them it
was a validation of their what they had
made and with that validation
>> for the Pakistanis for the Chinese
>> it's a validation that the J10 has
performed successfully PL15 has
performed successfully and therefore it
is logical to conclude that now they
will give that top-of-the-line equipment
to Pakistan having learned the lessons
of operation Sundur that Pakistan has
learned and they will also be there with
all the systems
>> but Mr. Modi is saying that he has put
down a new normal and what I would like
to discuss with you is the consequences
of this new normal.
>> So you see uh this is actually a thing
which should have been thought more
deeply and I'll tell you why. First
thing is that Prime Minister Modi, he
has not ended operation Synindur. He has
put it on pause.
>> That's right.
>> That means any side can lift the pause.
>> I would rather say that he has kept it
openended rather than put it on pause.
That's right.
>> In other words, it can be activated at a
second's notice.
>> That is from India's side. Our side.
>> No, no, no. Even their side. I'll just
come to that.
>> No, but what Mr. Modi says does not
apply to the other side. Why should they
stick by that? We are keeping operation
Sindur open.
>> But they are impacted.
>> They have not said anything to that.
>> No, no, no.
>> They will react only. No,
>> no, no, no. See how it will work is that
Prime Minister Modi has said that this
is a pause and then as he pointed out a
new normal has been created. And what is
the new normal? The new normal is that
any act of terror will be considered an
act of war.
>> Right?
>> Number one. Number two, India will not
make a distinction between terrorist and
their sponsors.
>> In other words, all this counterterror
operations that we have done in the past
which is the 2019 Balakort air force was
used for counterterror operations,
Synindur which was used for
counterterror targeting. Now it will be
no distinction between the terrorist and
the sponsors. And then he has said that
we will not be deterred by the nuclear
red lines of Pakistan and we'll be
proactive. Now if you put all this
together what he's saying is the word is
proactive. Now even they accuse us they
they say that we are doing terrorism on
their territory. They say it openly in
Baluchasthan they say we are doing this
we are creating trouble for them. So
they can also be proactive
and then we are saying that now the next
time it'll be a full-fledged war because
if you're talking of the sponsors you
are talking of Pakistan army you're
talking of Pakistan military the game
changes
see and this is what the world has heard
now when the game changes if you allow
me how will the game change let's look
at that how it'll change is that we saw
in Sud
both sides we fired missiles We fired
drones. See, normally the all the wars
that have happened between India and
Pakistan, there has been a contact line.
Our army here, their army there, the
armies fought, then they took some land,
went in, air force helped over. Because
in this we saw that the missiles and the
drones they did depth targeting.
When you do deep targeting, that means
the battlefield, the front, the rear,
the laterals are becoming meaningless.
>> Yeah. It's all a battlefield. It's all a
battlefield and therefore what what it
means is that the threshold of a
conventional war it comes down
>> and then what happens is if you look at
the elongated geography of Pakistan and
you see high-profile targets including
the nuclear infrastructure
within range of our missiles
that means now they have to start
thinking about the nuclear thing also
that means the threshold of nuclear also
has come down So therefore the
corrective measure they have immediately
taken. What they have done is first of
all the army chief general aim
>> field he became field marshal but that
is not the point.
>> The point is he got an additional
appointment and the additional
appointment he's he's now the chief of
defense forces which means that he is
number one of the three. So whatever
discussion has to happen about war
options contingencies before the war
he'll take the decision of war and bang
then not only that then nuclear arsenal
which is what they call the strategic
plans division it used to be in a
structure where which was headed by the
prime minister of Pakistan now that is
over
>> it's headed by field
he has created a new organization put
the strategic plans division
So the point I'm making is that in terms
of decision making after India has
declared that if there is another major
terrorist attack it to be a full-scale
war they are ready for war and the
Chinese are there to help them with the
state-of-art equipment and let me add
one more point do you think this will
figure this new uh concatenation of
events will figure in Trump's
discussions with she next week in
Beijing? No, because as far as they are
concerned, they have far too many things
to sort out the
>> meaning the Americans.
>> No. Uh he's talking of President Trump
is visiting China as of now on the 14th
of May just 2 three days away and he'll
be meeting President Xiing there.
>> Now the key thing is that the Chinese
first of all what they always tell the
Americans that please understand our red
line that is Taiwan.
So that is one thing. Then there are
issues of trade, there are issues of
investments, there are issues of rare
earth. So even there is issues of
artificial intelligence. So all these
things in fact they've had a couple of
meetings and recently there was a
delegation a Republican delegation had
gone and visited China as as sort of a
preparation to the visit of President
Trump. They have gone there and they
have had a discussion with their prime
minister Nikqua and all these things are
on the table. the war in West Asia, the
war in Ukraine. I mean these are the
issues as far as President Xi is
concerned. He has made it very clear
that you do anything with Pakistan, I
stand with Pakistan physically. Now that
is standing with Pakisting
was key hardware, we have given
hardware, we have given this, we have no
you are not only see maintenance on the
ground you are doing for them and you
are basically preparing them for their
operations. you being China
>> China and you are assisting them in the
operations that means you are part of
them
>> quite
>> so as far as and then of course they'll
be discussing West Asia the war in West
Asia uh which you know is extremely
important subject
>> so where does that leave India
>> see as far as India is concerned
President Trump repeatedly says my
favorite field marshal
>> yes
>> the profile of has gone up of field
marshal as Munir and This is a very
serious thing. I mean I have no issues
with that. But if you see from the
government of point of view, it's a very
serious thing and this is not something
which will go away in a hurry for two
reasons.
>> But is there not something contradictory
about Trump insisting that India
decrease its arms purchases from Russia,
increase them with the US when the his
favorite field marshall has 80% of his
military stock coming in from China. So
how does he reconcile these two?
>> No, no, no. We have given him on a
platter. You see on 13th of February
2025 within days of the inauguration of
President Trump, Prime Minister Modi was
there. Yes.
>> And we signed a joint statement. And the
key thing in the joint statement is
mission 500. What that means is our
present bilateral trade stands at 139
billion. By 2030 which is around the
corner we'll make it five 500 bilateral
trade 500 billion dollars
>> that can only come through oil and
military equipment.
>> Exactly. And technology of course lot of
technology is coming the fourth
generation technologies. So basically we
have mortgaged everything our trade
entire thing to the Americans and the
Americans on the other hand are now
having making peace with China. So our
strategic role which used to be there as
long as the Biden administration was
there starting from the Obama
administration that we were supposed to
provide be the military bullwark for
America in the Indian Ocean region
against China that is over
>> on the other hand on the other hand
President Trump has given a elevated
role it's not President Trump alone the
Russians the Chinese then the GCC
countries six countries the other
countries in the region Pakistan is a
star.
>> It is not a facilitator. It is not a it
is not only a mediator. It will now
provide security to the GCC countries
and two countries. One it already gives
to Saudi Arabia and Qatar is already in
talks with them and except for UAE I see
the others also falling in line over a
period of time.
>> But do they have the military capacity
to do this?
>> Of course they have.
>> Okay. But so this tectonic shift in
geopolitics is in favor of Pakistan
>> again
>> or has been taken advantage of by
Pakistan.
>> Again again again again you know uh
I hope you don't mind. Of course not. We
we now have to think of win-win.
>> If Pakistan wins we have to see how we
also win along with Pakistan.
>> Ah that's
>> this is the way I see things.
>> Win win along with Pakistan. Absolutely.
Not against Pakistan.
>> No, no, no, no. See, the whole idea, the
whole idea should be that in South Asia,
how do we reduce our tensions with
China? How do we reduce our tensions
with Pakistan? We need to cut our
budgets, we need to cut our troops. And
we have to see anybody who has a cursory
look of the map realizes that when you
look at Eurasia, these three blobs, they
become one. Central Asia, West Asia,
South Asia and as far as Pakistan is
concerned, it is there now in South
Asia, it is there in West Asia and it is
very much in Central Asia also. So the
point I'm making is it is very good. The
connectivity is there because it helps
them. But we also should make take
advantage of that and both the Chinese
and the Pakistanis
want to talk with India. So what you're
saying is that in foreign policy it is
imperative that we open engagement, open
negotiations, open dialogue with both
Pakistan and with China which we have
been rejecting.
>> Absolutely. Because this is the new
world order the new world. Sorry please.
>> But it is uh very muddled and confusing.
There's Pakistan and China together
militarily
and we are supposed to buy 500 billion
or whatever worth of equipment etc from
the US. So it should be uh logically
Pakistan and China, India and US but US
is making friends with China. So we are
just dumped by all sides. No, no, no,
no,
>> no, no, no, no. Because the new world
order that we are talking about uh where
this year we have the BRICS presidency
and in the BRICS presidency the three
key players are basically Russia, India
and China RI IC.
>> Yeah. Except that India under Mr. Modi
does not even have the courage to
convene a meeting a summit. It's not
doing it. I I I you know what
>> because the so many members of bricks in
fact I think all members other than us
the principal members have a view on
Palestine have a view on Iran which we
are not willing to affirm
>> so basically we are caught in a bind
because of various
>> I think that's what she meant
>> no I agree entirely with you but if we
are to take advantage of geopolitics see
when we say and the people say they say
that India's big uh you know advantage
is 1.4 4 billion people they actually
become a liability if there is no peace
if there is no education is if there is
no development and for development you
need peace and for peace if you see
before prime minister Modi came to power
in 2014 we were talking with Pakistan
there are problems and I'm sure they can
be ironed out today and with China we
had see the border problem is there so
we have to find a way out for the border
problem and one way out is that if you
make peace with Pakistan, Pakistan is
willing to make peace and what are we
saying to Pakistan? We will only talk on
two issues on terror and on how to get
back Pakistan occupied Kashmir.
They are saying talk on Kashmir and
let's talk on terror also because they
also have a gr on. They have more than
once said they'll talk on terror and on
Kashmir under General Perves Busharav
there was what he called the fourpoint
formula. So it is possible for us to
tackle even the most difficult questions
but we can't tackle even the easiest one
if we don't engage with them. Now 40
years ago nearly Rajiv Gandhi set a
grand example when within weeks of each
other in the same month of December 1988
he first went to China then went to
Pakistan the first Indian prime minister
to visit China in three decades and the
first Indian prime minister to visit
Pakistan in nearly four decades and
something started. Now we seem to be
completely stranded and we are just
caught in our own cut coils.
>> Now now can I just add one point what
you said is perfectly I mean nobody can
disagree with that. Just add
>> except Mr. Modi.
>> No no no
>> except except to make a point that you
see the world has changed today. When I
say the world has changed it's a
multipolar world. We you are talking of
the uniolar world. Multipolar world with
three great powers China, Russia and
America. Three powers are there. There's
not one power. And so the world has
changed. There is a new world order that
we are talking about. Not to go in the
details of that. This is the opportunity
for us to actually talk with Pakistan
because it is win-win for us. Win-win in
terms of peace. Win-win in terms of
connectivity. Now, why are we always
listening to Trump? He tells us, "All
right, you can buy oil from Russia, not
buy oil from Russia. You can trade with
Iran, you can't trade with Iran. You
can't go to Chabar port. We have
invested in Chabar port. Now we want to
have connectivity what we call the West
Asia quad. And what is the West Asia
chord? The West Asia chord is I2 U2. I2
is India uh Israel and U2 is America and
UAE. And this is a non-starter
today in the war and the new framework
that is coming up. You see what will
happen is that in the next uh three or
or maybe less a new regional framework
will come in come in West Asia and this
is the reason that recently it was in
the news that the Iranian foreign
minister he traveled to Russia and he
traveled to China because in the
multipolar world he has support of these
two great powers and what did he talk
there he was talking about the new
regional framework
>> I would call it the Asian resurgence.
>> Yeah,
>> this is the new Asia.
>> So here Pakistan will have a big role
and we have good relations with Iran.
You know the reason why Iran today
supports us, it is not really in my
assessment the the government, it is the
people of India.
>> We have that centuries old
>> relationship. Going back to
>> so coming back to uh some you know point
to make a point is that we need to have
peace we need to have development we
need to have connectivity win-win with
Pakistan normalization of ties with
China something that I keep saying
>> om shanti shanti shanti
this is the message of India
civilization which seems which modern
India 21st India 2026 India seems to
have totally forgotten.
>> Thank you very much.
>> Thank you so much.
>> Thank you Sudith.
Namaskar.