Advertisement
43:48
Sadhguru & Javed Akhtar on Reason, Faith and Its Place in the Society
Algebra Conversations
·
May 10, 2026
Open on YouTube
Transcript
0:04
[Music]
0:09
we've talked of the material we've
0:12
talked of the political we've talked of
0:14
entertainment and art and cinema next up
0:17
we're going to talk about faith in
0:20
reason and its place in society and the
0:23
various forms that faith is taking in
0:26
the modern world we have Jaggi Vasudev
Advertisement
0:29
Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev the head of
0:37
Ischia foundation that has centers
0:40
across a hundred and sixty cities across
0:42
the world two hundred to two million
0:44
volunteers and of and a following that
0:48
is passionate and urban and mystical
0:52
with him
0:53
we have Javed Akhtar lyricist script
0:56
writer legendary man of cinema but also
1:00
somebody who is a committed and fierce
Advertisement
1:02
rationalist both of them will be talking
1:05
about the space for faith and reason in
1:08
our society please welcome them on stage
1:12
you have a passion for snakes SUVs bikes
1:18
helicopters adventure travel you have a
1:22
flair for entrepreneurship your passion
1:25
is the construction business and your
1:27
asset guru can you spell out what is the
1:30
core philosophy of your foundation of
1:33
your practices and how do these two
1:36
aspects of you sit together good evening
1:41
everyone first of all let me correct
1:44
that
1:44
I have no passion for snakes or SUVs or
1:48
helicopters I'm just passionate about
1:50
life and just about anything that I do
1:53
it's not about this or that I do not
1:57
know how to do anything without absolute
2:00
involvement so passion is a word that
2:03
people attach but it's just that just
2:07
about anything that I do I do not know
2:10
how to do it without absolute
2:11
involvement because it's only with
2:15
involvement one knows life it doesn't
2:19
matter whether you're doing business or
2:21
art or music spirituality doesn't matter
2:22
what you're doing if you're not involved
2:25
you'll miss it all so I'm just involved
2:29
these are all names that people attach
2:32
there's only a few things that people
2:34
have seen well you know I'll come back
2:37
to this strand of materialism sitting
2:40
well with spirituality but before that
2:42
you know you say that what you your
2:45
philosophy is not even a teaching it's a
2:47
technology and it just works what is
2:50
that can you articulate it and what does
2:53
it mean when they have to be personal
2:54
endeavor one doesn't have to be a
2:56
learner but you can just achieve a
2:58
technology so this is there is no
3:02
philosophy because generally
3:06
philosophies are just fantastic
3:08
explanations for those aspects of life
3:11
which can never be explained so they
3:15
essentially we're here whatever you
3:21
think about it is just your thought but
3:23
the fact of it is if you look at this as
3:27
a human being
3:28
this human mechanism is the most
3:32
sophisticated technology on the planet
3:37
whatever other gadgets that we have they
3:40
all come out of it out of this one this
3:43
is the most sophisticated mechanism you
3:47
see today people are deeply engrossed in
3:50
their iPhones but what would I this is
3:54
the thing this is the gadget if you pay
3:57
enough attention to this you would
3:59
understand how to operate this at its
4:02
highest possible mode so the whole
4:06
process that we refer to as spiritual is
4:08
just this so that this mechanism attains
4:12
its fullest capability and possibility
4:15
that it doesn't just operate in a
4:16
minimalistic way so that's why it's a
4:20
technology philosophies have happened
4:23
because of the misunderstanding
4:25
the technology otherwise essentially
4:27
only technologies were transmitted you
4:29
might if you look back and see there
4:31
were no teachings in this country there
4:33
were only methods methods how to do it
4:37
how to make this happen at its highest
4:40
possible level so once we enter this
4:42
fear being a subjective dimension of
4:44
life you have a body you have a mind you
4:47
have emotions you have energy supporting
4:50
this all these three so when we handle
4:52
all these four dimensions some of it may
4:56
not come under the purview of
4:57
rudimentary logic and reason that a lot
5:00
of people subscribe to because of that
5:03
rudimentary level of reasoning they
5:05
think it's beyond reason it is very much
5:07
in reason if you probe into it we can go
5:09
into it but in fact you know before we
5:15
go further with that in the past you
5:18
said yes that you know in India there's
5:20
always been methods there hasn't been
5:22
teachings but the purpose of
5:24
spirituality was to some extent to
5:27
disconnect people from desire from
5:29
materialism to understand the limits of
5:32
that why is it that with the Isha
5:35
Foundation's philosophy just
5:37
self-actualization is the goal you know
5:40
expressing yourself to the maximum you
5:43
can rather than to understand the
5:45
finiteness of that say yeah
5:49
this understanding that spiritual means
5:52
you have to disassociate you with desire
5:54
let's understand it this way if you
5:58
desire for food if you desire for money
6:00
if you desire for a piece of land on
6:03
this planet if this is considered greed
6:05
now you want to know the very source of
6:08
creation this is super green isn't it so
6:11
where is the question of dissociating it
6:13
is evolution of desire not associating
6:15
with desire your desire is evolved when
6:18
you are a five-year-old child what you
6:20
desired for completely fell away when
6:22
you were 10 what you desire for when you
6:25
were 10 completely was meaningless when
6:27
you're 15 what you desired as 15 when
6:29
you're 30 doesn't make any sense
6:31
so your desire is evolving if you evolve
6:34
very slowly you will go at this pace if
6:38
you go
6:38
your experience and think beyond and
6:41
reason beyond where you are right now as
6:43
you sit here if you understand that
6:46
after all you and me are mortal
6:47
whatever we may do when you understand
6:50
your motto naturally the question of
6:52
what is beyond where did I come from
6:54
where will I go
6:55
this is naturally in the purview of
6:57
human intellect see if you are not given
7:02
ready-made answers by somebody it is
7:04
very very natural that every human
7:07
intellect will inquire where did I come
7:10
from where will I go what is the nature
7:11
of my existence so this is not
7:14
dissociating from desire this is just
7:17
evolving your desire to a new
7:18
possibility I'm going to bring Javid
7:23
selves into the conversation in a bit
7:24
Javed sir I just want to prove this a
7:26
little more I'll finish it
7:34
Sadhguru G Javed Sahab this is called
7:40
theatrical timing you've got a clap for
7:42
saying nothing actually
7:43
[Laughter]
7:46
Sadhguru G you know we we've called our
7:49
session five stars fixes because and the
7:53
reason I'm saying this is because
7:54
perhaps it's something that one doesn't
7:56
understand that to be a part of your
7:59
course which actually a lot of my
8:00
friends have taken and I must admit that
8:02
it does transform them the breathing
8:04
techniques they come back , people but
8:08
it costs a lot how is your spirituality
8:13
your technique your old technology is
8:16
not available for the poor I want you to
8:19
understand this
8:20
70% of ISA Foundation's work is in rural
8:24
India where it's 100% free I'm just
8:28
rubbing you to keep that 70% actor
8:40
so you need to understand this we charge
8:46
one way in the United States another way
8:49
in UK another way in Lebanon anna devane
8:52
Zelenka another way in India one way in
8:55
Mumbai one way in there some one way in
8:58
a local town and in the village it's
9:00
free you've got to give you accountants
9:02
to the government and above all the
9:08
volume of work our volunteers are doing
9:10
is all funded by this the amount of
9:13
medical work free medical work that's
9:15
happening education very involved with
9:18
about thirty six thousand children right
9:19
now actively with the largest ecological
9:22
moment in the country
9:23
nowhere in the history of independent
9:25
India has this happened in any state
9:28
Tamil Nadu is green cover has gone up
9:30
7.2% in a matter of eight years with 17
9:33
million living trees that we have
9:35
planted so where does money come from
9:39
all this guru that doesn't answer my
9:42
question because you do a lot of rural
9:45
outreach and one knows that those who do
9:49
not have money should come and take it
9:51
in the village it's free no I I was
9:53
talking about now the thing is five-star
9:56
culture people want air-conditioned
9:58
rooms people want all the comfort and
10:00
they want it free how does it come
10:02
somebody has to pay for it to finish my
10:06
question it's not about you charging the
10:08
rich which is fine for the well-being
10:11
I was asking whether your breathing
10:12
techniques your technology of
10:15
self-actualization whether that is
10:16
available to the poor your meditative
10:19
techniques you know not use I'm talking
10:21
about the meditative techniques all the
10:24
inner engineering programs in the
10:26
villages are free 100% free one other
10:32
question which is about your central
10:34
philosophy is to do with yoga and with
10:36
breathing techniques but there is also
10:38
another I would like to dissociate from
10:40
that word philosophy technology is
10:43
connected with breathing techniques but
10:47
you also believe in in past life you
10:50
know
10:50
my colleagues spent a week with you at
10:53
the foundation and wrote a big piece and
10:55
he said that their people feel that they
10:57
can see disembodied selves that you know
11:00
your wife you felt was a sister from the
11:03
past life you know we've had James Randi
11:07
here who was shooting through this kind
11:09
of faith system and you said something
11:12
very interesting to my colleague you
11:13
know when he was being skeptical about
11:15
this whole idea of past life and seeing
11:17
spirits that are disembodied you said
11:19
the reason you disbelieve all this is
11:21
because your mind is in the UK and
11:23
Greenwich Mean Time you know and not in
11:24
India so is it really about conditioning
11:27
of minds it is not about conditioning of
11:29
minds let's look at it this way when you
11:33
were born
11:34
you were not made like this isn't it you
11:36
are so small now this much happen how so
11:40
what you call as my body is an
11:41
accumulation accumulation it's just a
11:47
piece of planet that you accumulate
11:48
through the food that you eat what you
11:51
call as my mind is a heap of impressions
11:53
which you also accumulate or a period of
11:55
time so your body is an accumulation
11:57
your mind is an accumulation what you
12:01
accumulate at the most you can claim
12:04
it's yours but you cannot say it's me
12:07
isn't it it's like the five percent of
12:09
the universe that we understand now one
12:11
of the scientists will tell you no no
12:12
I'm not talking about that say right now
12:14
whatever you accumulate you can claim
12:17
it's yours but you cannot claim it's
12:20
mean isn't it what you accumulate cannot
12:23
be you isn't it
12:24
so you gathered your body you gathered
12:27
the whole volume of your mind so what
12:30
the hell are you never even looked at
12:33
isn't it you're making assumptions so
12:36
your personality your ideologies
12:38
everything picked up everything
12:41
accumulated you can accumulate and keep
12:44
it and use it but you can never claim
12:46
it's mind everybody should get this now
12:49
if you don't get it now you'll get it
12:51
from the maggots
12:55
sub-group use you had you had amount of
12:58
sin a moment when you were young when
13:01
you felt that you were instantly
13:02
transformed you don't speak of it much
13:05
but you also you know you also told
13:07
people that you would die at 42 but you
13:09
didn't so I'm sorry to disappoint you
13:14
but that again puts all this realm into
13:19
you know I mean I'm somebody in the
13:22
middle zone people who who know me well
13:23
always tease me about how I try to be a
13:25
rationalist but I always believe in the
13:27
paranormal but you know there is no
13:29
precision to it so how you know how do
13:32
you square with that
13:33
what would your deputies say if you said
13:35
something you know the paranormal is not
13:38
empirical so these are all words we keep
13:43
on inventing more words for all this
13:45
this is just lying in the sense now when
13:53
you talk about past lives present life I
13:55
always tell people do not ever believe
13:57
these things at the same time do not be
14:01
a fool and disbelieve it because belief
14:05
and disbelief means just this you
14:08
believe something or you disbelieve
14:09
something essentially means you are not
14:12
straight enough to admit that you do not
14:14
know you have not understood the
14:16
immensity of I do not know because I do
14:19
not know is it tremendous possibility
14:21
only if you see I do not know the
14:24
possibility of knowing ever arises in
14:27
you so this must be clearly demarcated
14:31
see the moment you say and religious you
14:34
refer to yourself as a believer the
14:37
moment you refer to somebody as
14:38
spiritual you refer to him as a seeker
14:41
who can see only one who is realized
14:45
that he does not know can seek if he
14:49
thinks he knows why will he seek if we
14:52
come to you Javed sir
14:59
now start for seeking Joe it's up you
15:05
have to not be theatrical with me will
15:09
we live in a country yeah of great
15:12
faiths you are part of a creative space
15:17
that very often expresses stories
15:20
through faith
15:22
you're a committed rationalist you know
15:24
if we see the finiteness of faith would
15:27
you accept that there's a finiteness to
15:29
just reason as well first of all I think
15:34
before starting any discussion one
15:36
should always decide on the meaning of
15:40
words
15:40
maybe you mean something by faith and I
15:43
am understanding something else what is
15:45
faith and what is the difference between
15:48
faith and belief I believe I am in Goa I
15:52
believe there is a place called North
15:55
Pole I believe that the two pies a poor
15:58
country I believe that Germany is a rich
16:00
country is it my faith why it is not my
16:05
faith I'll tell you why cuz not by faith
16:08
and white is my belief because it is
16:10
reasonable anything any belief which is
16:15
devoid of logic reason rational evidence
16:21
witness that is faith anything which is
16:30
devoid of all the logic all the reason
16:32
all the ration all the witness all the
16:35
evidence that have failed and I really
16:39
wonder what is the difference between
16:40
faith and his stupidity because that is
16:42
it has property they have the same
16:44
definition
16:46
I am willing to I am willing to accept
16:51
belief but it has to have some rationale
16:54
some reason if you don't have any you
16:59
disarm me from reason logic
17:01
now when you say that whatever mind is
17:05
is accumulated my body is accumulated
17:09
that is not me it is like saying that as
17:13
long as you can peel the onion you are
17:16
not finding the onion Jesus killed our
17:19
onion this accumulation this
17:22
accumulation is me if you eradicate this
17:26
accumulation I don't exist that's all
17:29
Javad sub I think I should respond to
17:33
this okay all right now you being in
17:43
nagpur right now for sure is you believe
17:46
that you being in goa right now is a
17:48
reality you better grasp courage
17:52
you just give me a moment there's a
17:53
reverberation here and B country or each
17:55
other could you just turn the speakers
17:57
towards us or maybe give Satguru G
18:02
another mic because we cannot that I
18:04
can't understand him I can't even hear
18:05
me
18:10
I I don't know about the battle between
18:18
faith and reason but wit certainly has
18:21
its place in society
18:24
probably the microphones are arranged in
18:26
such a way because anyway you and if you
18:28
hear you may understand thanks for the
18:35
compliments of guys three yeah yeah so
18:44
it will have come on man
18:58
so now I'll repeat for you you believing
19:07
that you're in Nagpur is for sure belief
19:11
but you're in Goa is a reality whether
19:15
you believe it or you don't believe it
19:17
that's how it is so there is a
19:19
difference between reality and belief if
19:23
you think whatever you believe is true I
19:27
want you to understand we can make you
19:30
believe just about anything if you work
19:33
hard enough on you we can make you
19:35
believe anything and when you believe
19:36
just about anything that is what we are
19:39
referring to as fate or it's passing off
19:41
as religion or faith will come to this
19:43
now
19:55
no let's let me be the moderator one
19:58
point nobody watchin I will I'll be
20:07
wrong maybe wrong logic the people in
20:11
the audience may I read it shall not be
20:14
corrected because it will not be a
20:16
stolen energy may I retain the esthetics
20:19
may I retain the aesthetics of this
20:22
session I really don't need anybody
20:24
telling me that I'm not going to let him
20:25
talk I will let him talk can we please
20:27
keep the aesthetics of this alive so so
20:32
this whole presumption and the way this
20:35
is going is coming from a certain
20:37
fundamental presumption because even
20:39
when I met Javed Sahab last time he was
20:42
telling me that some guru told him not
20:45
to use his mind I do not know which go
20:48
to set this one thing is clear the
20:51
advice has been taken seriously never
21:03
taken any I have I have not taken any
21:08
guru seriously I promise you that in the
21:10
rich tradition in the rich tradition of
21:13
the argumentative Indians yeah it
21:15
remained with the argument it never got
21:17
personal both of you so I just wanted to
21:20
come back job itself to this whole issue
21:21
of of the finiteness of a reason you
21:25
know we just saw Ramanujan for instance
21:28
he was intuitive he didn't know how he
21:31
arrived at at that Matt but he arrived
21:33
at it I have absolutely no argument with
21:37
the fact that reason is the highest
21:39
condition of man as we understand it but
21:41
is there not space for something beyond
21:43
I empirical understanding course but
21:47
there is no hero around it there is
21:49
nothing like it spiritual about it when
21:52
you look at the fan and that the fan is
21:54
running on full speed you can't see the
21:56
blades it doesn't mean there are no
21:58
trains you know when you think very
22:00
quickly you may not see the reason but
22:03
when you will sit back and analyze it if
22:06
the conclusion is right then there is
22:08
a logical step behind it you have not
22:13
seen it at that moment because your
22:15
conscious mind is not the only mind you
22:18
have many parts of the mind you lose a
22:20
key and you try to remember you can't
22:23
and then you're talking to somebody else
22:25
and some certainly you remember where
22:28
you have kept the key because a part of
22:30
your brain was working on it so brain is
22:33
a very complicated machine mind is the
22:36
most sophisticated computer on in this
22:39
universe at the moment so you have to
22:43
understand the functioning if Ramanujam
22:45
understood it he understood it in a
22:47
language which he knew why he did not
22:49
understand in Chinese though he proved
22:51
that is not possible symmetry what will
22:56
come will come from your mind you are
22:59
nothing but your mind and if that is
23:03
really captured you don't exist but
23:06
Ramanujan actually believed that the
23:08
goddess was giving him that intuition
23:11
how do you reconcile that would you say
23:14
that he was something I mean after all
23:15
he was a human being so what he wouldn't
23:17
be right all the time
23:26
sub-group before I come back to you
23:28
Javed 7 another function of faith is you
23:33
know in its in its refined form not as
23:35
religion not as public religion but as
23:37
faith can sometimes be the impulse for
23:40
also the most noble of human endeavor
23:44
whether we are about it the faith can
23:48
make you do wonderful things and the
23:50
worst thing possible these society
23:52
embers are people of faith if they would
23:55
have been reasonable they wouldn't have
23:56
done that but but equally Jove itself
23:59
faith is a blind power faith paralyzes
24:03
your mind and now you are capable of
24:07
doing something exceptionally good and
24:09
something exceptionally bad but you are
24:11
out of control you can go either way
24:14
what about the ultra rationalist the
24:17
Communists the Stalinist regimes no no
24:19
no they are not rational is there
24:21
communism they have a fit they believe
24:25
in communism think I am not only against
24:30
religion with spiritualism which is the
24:32
debris of religion I am I am again v if
24:38
communism is your faith then you are
24:40
half bad and the religious person that's
24:43
well quit so so what do you live with
24:45
then if you don't live with a belief
24:47
system what do you live with right you
24:49
know you're talking of extremities but
24:51
how about how about common sense
24:55
[Applause]
25:02
it'll do for the moment I'm going to
25:06
come back Javed sir with a scientific
25:08
question for you which is about stories
25:10
human-beings need stories to live with
25:13
you know we've met a lot of scientists a
25:15
lot of astrophysicists even in science
25:17
there is the idea of the story I don't
25:21
know much about it and if you question
25:22
me too much I'll falter but you know the
25:25
universe professor Gunnison was telling
25:27
us that we understand only 5% of the
25:29
universe there's 95% we don't understand
25:32
and we both met Richard Dawkins in
25:34
Jaipur earlier this year and he was
25:36
suggesting that outside of this universe
25:38
there could be multiverses now that is
25:40
not something we know it is a belief in
25:42
in something that is not a believed it
25:45
is a guess maybe maybe not know it's a
25:47
story you live with why can't we live
25:49
with other stories in the meantime which
25:50
give people a sense of such in their
25:53
life a sense of solace you see what is
25:57
the problem that as long as you have
25:59
curiosity as long as and he said very
26:02
rightly and I totally agree with him
26:04
that you should be humble enough to
26:07
accept that there are many things that
26:09
you don't know and only then you
26:12
research what is wrong with religions
26:14
that you know everything they can tell
26:16
you how to make a universal for easy
26:18
lessons they can they will tell you
26:21
whatever you were before you were born
26:24
and where will you go after your death
26:26
and so on so they have all the answers
26:29
that's it the problem
26:37
Sakura gee that's so that's you know
26:40
when you said that essentially the
26:41
spiritual person is a seeker why is it
26:44
that gurus give the answers I don't know
26:48
but you guru gave an answer I haven't
26:49
met one like that if you've met they're
26:50
all the wrong ones I couldn't help it
26:52
no go to ever give an answer gurus only
26:55
give methods to deepen your process I
26:59
asked you what your method was so now
27:02
we're talking about thought and the
27:06
event itself is called think so let me
27:09
let's just look at this your thought
27:11
your thought is essentially coming from
27:15
the information that is already there in
27:17
your mind the data that is there in your
27:20
mind it's complex but it is within the
27:23
limited data that you have how did you
27:26
gather this data this data you gathered
27:29
through the agencies of five senses by
27:32
seeing by hearing smelling tasting and
27:35
touching this is the way it's gone into
27:36
you these are the five instruments which
27:40
are taking in all the data in your
27:42
wakefulness and sleep this data is being
27:44
gathered all the time even in your sleep
27:46
in deep sleep if I say something we can
27:50
hypnotize you and make you remember that
27:51
actually because even in sleep you're
27:54
recording but it is only through these
27:56
five senses these five senses are not
27:59
reliable in the sense if I touch this
28:04
table it would my hand will tell me it's
28:08
cool
28:09
but if I lowered my body temperature and
28:12
touch it
28:12
my hand will tell me it's wrong so it
28:14
doesn't say anything about that it only
28:17
tells me the information that is
28:19
necessary for my survival if survival is
28:22
all you're seeking these five senses are
28:24
okay but if you're seeking something
28:26
beyond survival you need to expand the
28:29
dimension of your perception so the
28:32
whole spiritual process is about how to
28:34
expand your perception because only what
28:37
you perceive is life rest is just
28:39
imagination if you want to be in touch
28:42
with reality
28:43
you have to enhance your perception and
28:45
just assuming
28:47
what see this thing happened across the
28:49
history when people believed the planet
28:53
is flat somebody said it's around he got
28:56
killed
28:56
okay now everybody thought they can only
29:01
walk somebody says I can fly he was
29:04
almost killed
29:05
so this has happened continuously
29:07
because people believing whatever I do
29:10
not know cannot exist is the crown of
29:13
ignorance Jove it's up that's that's a
29:22
Wally that I hand to you you know that
29:24
at every lat every point in history the
29:26
limits of reality has been pushed by
29:29
those who imagine or have faith in
29:31
something that doesn't yet exist not at
29:33
all not at all
29:35
first of all it's not I mean the first
29:37
thing if spiritualist will do will try
29:40
to shake your confidence in the five
29:42
senses that you have only then he can
29:46
control you now if you think that you
29:51
will believe him any other thing then
29:53
take a person do an operation on him
29:56
disconnect him with his brain and then
29:59
let us see how he expands its
30:01
personality whatever expansion happens
30:05
happens in your mind and you cannot
30:08
undermine it and whoever suggests that
30:11
that is to be undermined is playing the
30:14
very dangerous game with you that's what
30:16
then you will not have any discretion
30:18
how will you decide whatever whatever
30:20
he's saying is right or wrong and
30:22
whatever he's saying is you here using
30:24
his brain he doesn't want you to use you
30:26
obey
30:28
from there this concept um have it come
30:31
from well from their testimony
30:34
it has come from the mind even if you
30:38
think that the mind is not everything
30:39
that too has come from the mind if you
30:41
don't just mind how do you trust this
30:43
part good job it's up yeah you said the
30:47
five senses as a writer as an artist as
30:51
a human being yeah
30:52
don't you sometimes have a sixth sense
30:53
about something please understand you
30:56
see there are like between countries
30:58
there are no man lands between India and
31:01
Pakistan between India and China that
31:03
Roman family in you between your
31:06
subconscious and between your conscious
31:08
mind there is a Roman land and what
31:11
happens that if you rely only on your
31:15
current thinking on your mind a brain is
31:19
also like how your mind your conscious
31:22
mind is your living room but then you
31:24
have other rooms you have a taste
31:26
you have bedrooms you have basements
31:28
within your brain then you relax and you
31:32
allow the other part of your mind to
31:34
take over then your conscious mind and
31:37
your subconscious they work together in
31:41
partnership and ultimately something
31:44
comes which comes from you move comes
31:46
from your mind but from that part of
31:48
mind which more often than not you are
31:50
not using that's all but it is the mind
31:53
ultimately
31:55
[Applause]
32:01
now Kenneth we're talking about stories
32:05
can I say his story stories a Nutella
32:07
story yeah sure please but just speak a
32:09
bit louder yes on a certain day a lady
32:13
went to sleep in her sleep she had a
32:18
dream in her dream she saw a hunk of a
32:21
man standing there staring at her he
32:24
started coming closer and closer he came
32:27
so close she could even feel his breath
32:29
and she trembled not in fear and then
32:36
she asked what will you do to me the man
32:40
said well lady it's your dream now what
32:47
happens in your mind is just essentially
32:49
you dream just being in a constant state
32:53
of flowing thoughts all the time 24
32:57
hours thoughts are flowing this is not
33:03
this does not signify intelligence this
33:07
suggests diarrhea mental diarrhea
33:10
constantly it is on and on and on now if
33:16
one has made an effort one has strived
33:19
to look beyond the firmament of the mind
33:23
one would know other dimensions simply
33:27
denying that nothing like that exists
33:29
because I do not know it is I don't know
33:32
he doesn't need comments security but
33:35
you just said that the five senses are
33:37
unreliable but just to come back to that
33:39
license is being unreliable let me come
33:41
to this right now what your vision
33:45
visual sense understands his light many
33:49
of the creatures on the planet
33:50
understand it as darkness isn't it so
33:52
you sit with an owl and start an
33:54
argument as to which is light and which
33:56
is darkness you will end up with an
33:58
endless argument so who is right you
34:01
insist you're right but that is the
34:03
whole problem people insisting that
34:05
their right is the whole problem on the
34:06
planet what's a guru if if the whole
34:09
point of
34:10
your technology is to make people actual
34:13
eyes themselves why in the modern world
34:16
is there still cult creation why does
34:19
your photograph adorn every devotees who
34:22
or every practitioners home why do they
34:24
not just take the technology and become
34:26
independent spirits themselves see you
34:30
don't mind if you don't mind if a rock
34:36
stars picture is in somebody's house
34:38
okay but people he lives a bad life
34:43
he is drugged out but you don't mind if
34:47
a film stars picture is there it doesn't
34:50
matter if the 12 girls from the
34:53
Kingfisher calender don't your house you
34:55
do not matter but you have something
34:58
with me what is the problem
34:59
I'll tell you what the rock
35:08
yeah I'll tell you I'll job itself I'll
35:12
come to you but I'll tell you what my
35:13
problem with that is is that by and
35:15
large what Javed Sahab was saying
35:17
earlier is that with the following of a
35:20
guru even if the Guru doesn't want it
35:21
there is a giving up of oneself there's
35:24
a subjugation of one's own thinking to a
35:27
you know to a guru and that takes people
35:30
sometimes to very dark places you know
35:32
you're willing to kill for a guru you
35:33
may not be willing to kill for the film
35:34
star but they do they don't didn't you
35:40
come in Tamil not one see people will
35:41
kill for the film star you know if a
35:54
film star is having a wonderful time
35:58
you don't resent if a rock star is
36:00
having a wonderful time I mean he's
36:03
doing what in his vocation in his
36:05
profession
36:06
you don't reason if a guru is going put
36:08
in his profession is having a good time
36:10
why should you return it some not
36:12
definitely what's your problem
36:14
sure now this is this is the operation
36:18
of rationalism the equation should hold
36:20
good they then have good time job
36:25
[Applause]
36:31
Sakuragi one quick question I think my
36:33
colleague is going to ring the bell any
36:35
minute you know I saw a film recently in
36:38
America made by a young man and it's
36:41
called the truce - the true story of a
36:43
fake guru he dressed himself up as a
36:46
guru and he went and he met a whole lot
36:48
of people he listened to their sorrows
36:50
he listened to their stories he put
36:53
three pictures in front of them he
36:55
brought them into this sense of ecstasy
36:57
inhalation and they began to transform
37:00
themselves they completely believed in
37:01
him and they began to follow him they
37:04
felt that they arrived at a safe harbor
37:06
at the end of the film and they're being
37:09
filmed through this whole journey at the
37:11
end of it
37:12
no no feels himself you know about it he
37:14
reveals himself he's just a young man
37:16
from Canada from Phoenix what is the
37:19
answer to that see this is why I want
37:23
you to make a distinction between faith
37:25
and a spiritual process faith is just a
37:30
set of beliefs spiritual process begins
37:34
only when you realize that you do not
37:37
know the fundamentals of your existence
37:39
and seeking begins when a seeking begins
37:43
and you find your sense organs and your
37:45
logic only takes you to a certain point
37:47
and it's not willing to help you beyond
37:49
that then when you come to your dead end
37:52
you know there is something beyond but
37:54
you're at a dead end then you will want
37:56
a normal process so then somebody who
37:59
has experienced it will offer a process
38:01
this is all it is now in society it
38:04
might have fire found all kinds of
38:06
distortions you picking up a bad apple
38:09
and talking about apples Satguru
38:13
consumption in this universe in this
38:15
earth is really becoming something
38:17
unsustainable what kind of spirituality
38:20
is it that does not talk about the
38:22
finite end of consumption you know even
38:24
as a even as a method even as a process
38:27
that is not part of Asia foundation at
38:29
all see we are always trying to curtail
38:33
human aspirations it'll never work if I
38:36
tell somebody don't smoke don't do this
38:38
don't do that they will not do
38:40
they'll anyway continue to do it or
38:41
other kinds of Campbell's compulsions
38:43
will take them over but if you teach
38:46
them a method through which they're able
38:48
to manage the chemistry of who they are
38:51
today there is substantial medical and
38:53
scientific evidence it is no more belief
38:56
system there is substantial scientific
38:58
and medical evidence today research has
39:01
gone into this University of California
39:03
has done an enormous research and the
39:04
simple Shambo Muhammad are the basic
39:07
practice that we teach three months of
39:09
practice you're the neuronal
39:11
regeneration rejuvenation in your brain
39:13
is two hundred and forty-one percent
39:15
more than the average okay there any
39:18
number of things like this now the
39:20
chemical soup that you are you can
39:23
either make it very blissful or
39:25
miserable so if you are blissful by your
39:28
own nature then all the compulsiveness
39:31
will naturally drop whether you're going
39:34
shopping or you're digging up the planet
39:36
or you seeking something else
39:38
essentially it is just this a human
39:40
being is what longing to be a human
39:43
being is longing to be something more
39:45
than what he is right now
39:47
but if that more happens he wants more
39:49
if you really look at it a human being
39:51
cannot settle unless he has all of it if
39:54
you want all of it approaching it
39:57
through physical means is a hopeless
39:58
means the design is fine but the method
40:01
is hopeless so spiritual process means
40:03
you have offered him the right method
40:05
right process for the same design job
40:09
it's a view on jealousy I really find it
40:12
highly amusing it's very interesting
40:14
that it is in religion it is in
40:17
spirituality the moment they find
40:20
something in science which is compatible
40:22
they start respecting science they said
40:26
look now even the science has accepted
40:28
it but the moment science is opposing
40:31
them then it is not credible at all and
40:34
it is the history there was a question
40:38
which I missed that time we have to
40:40
understand through spiritualism that why
40:43
we are in this universe what are we
40:45
doing here why have we come here I don't
40:48
want to
40:50
commend about anybody else's presence
40:52
but guru ji I know why I'm in this
40:55
universe and the reason is unprintable
40:57
and the reason is unprintable offensive
41:00
it is a pompous question that why I am
41:06
in this universe it is a pompous
41:10
question what I am doing here have you
41:13
ever thought of a mosquito
41:14
why did mosquito is here in this world
41:17
why this porch is here tell it as far as
41:24
life quality is concerned there is no
41:27
difference between a Roden and a human
41:29
being between a mosquito and a human
41:32
being the only difference is the mind
41:35
and this is the difference they want to
41:37
eradicate
41:38
[Applause]
41:49
obviously this has no relevance to
41:53
whatever I'm speaking it looks like it's
41:56
not even being heard so the thing is the
42:03
significant aspect of that the
42:05
significant aspect of human life is that
42:10
human life is replete with possibilities
42:13
which other creatures are not capable of
42:15
every other creature on this planet is
42:19
fulfilled when its survival process is
42:22
fulfilled there is something about a
42:24
human being that it does not settle with
42:26
survival what is called as human begins
42:29
only after survival is taken care off
42:31
so the longing to be an endless
42:35
expansion cannot be settled by the
42:38
simplicity of thought thought is just a
42:42
product of the data that we have
42:43
gathered and whatever you may know it is
42:47
still too limited that much is
42:49
established by science so about science
42:52
and spiritual process ever being head-on
42:56
with each other such a thing has never
42:57
happened it is just that you have not
42:59
been exposed to the right things as I
43:01
said earlier you eat a bad apple and you
43:04
make conclusions about all apples it's
43:06
an unfortunate reality of one's life I'm
43:10
going to have to end it at that my
43:13
takeaway from this are two things one
43:16
that in India we've had a glorious
43:17
tradition of the argumentation between
43:20
men of faith and men of reason there
43:23
were the navaratna in King Akbar Scott
43:26
and the big takeaway that I think both
43:30
of them will agree with is that we can
43:32
first learn to operate with common sense
43:34
thank you so much for listening
43:37
you
43:39
[Music]
— end of transcript —
Advertisement
