[Music]
we've talked of the material we've
talked of the political we've talked of
entertainment and art and cinema next up
we're going to talk about faith in
reason and its place in society and the
various forms that faith is taking in
the modern world we have Jaggi Vasudev
Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev the head of
Ischia foundation that has centers
across a hundred and sixty cities across
the world two hundred to two million
volunteers and of and a following that
is passionate and urban and mystical
with him
we have Javed Akhtar lyricist script
writer legendary man of cinema but also
somebody who is a committed and fierce
rationalist both of them will be talking
about the space for faith and reason in
our society please welcome them on stage
you have a passion for snakes SUVs bikes
helicopters adventure travel you have a
flair for entrepreneurship your passion
is the construction business and your
asset guru can you spell out what is the
core philosophy of your foundation of
your practices and how do these two
aspects of you sit together good evening
everyone first of all let me correct
that
I have no passion for snakes or SUVs or
helicopters I'm just passionate about
life and just about anything that I do
it's not about this or that I do not
know how to do anything without absolute
involvement so passion is a word that
people attach but it's just that just
about anything that I do I do not know
how to do it without absolute
involvement because it's only with
involvement one knows life it doesn't
matter whether you're doing business or
art or music spirituality doesn't matter
what you're doing if you're not involved
you'll miss it all so I'm just involved
these are all names that people attach
there's only a few things that people
have seen well you know I'll come back
to this strand of materialism sitting
well with spirituality but before that
you know you say that what you your
philosophy is not even a teaching it's a
technology and it just works what is
that can you articulate it and what does
it mean when they have to be personal
endeavor one doesn't have to be a
learner but you can just achieve a
technology so this is there is no
philosophy because generally
philosophies are just fantastic
explanations for those aspects of life
which can never be explained so they
essentially we're here whatever you
think about it is just your thought but
the fact of it is if you look at this as
a human being
this human mechanism is the most
sophisticated technology on the planet
whatever other gadgets that we have they
all come out of it out of this one this
is the most sophisticated mechanism you
see today people are deeply engrossed in
their iPhones but what would I this is
the thing this is the gadget if you pay
enough attention to this you would
understand how to operate this at its
highest possible mode so the whole
process that we refer to as spiritual is
just this so that this mechanism attains
its fullest capability and possibility
that it doesn't just operate in a
minimalistic way so that's why it's a
technology philosophies have happened
because of the misunderstanding
the technology otherwise essentially
only technologies were transmitted you
might if you look back and see there
were no teachings in this country there
were only methods methods how to do it
how to make this happen at its highest
possible level so once we enter this
fear being a subjective dimension of
life you have a body you have a mind you
have emotions you have energy supporting
this all these three so when we handle
all these four dimensions some of it may
not come under the purview of
rudimentary logic and reason that a lot
of people subscribe to because of that
rudimentary level of reasoning they
think it's beyond reason it is very much
in reason if you probe into it we can go
into it but in fact you know before we
go further with that in the past you
said yes that you know in India there's
always been methods there hasn't been
teachings but the purpose of
spirituality was to some extent to
disconnect people from desire from
materialism to understand the limits of
that why is it that with the Isha
Foundation's philosophy just
self-actualization is the goal you know
expressing yourself to the maximum you
can rather than to understand the
finiteness of that say yeah
this understanding that spiritual means
you have to disassociate you with desire
let's understand it this way if you
desire for food if you desire for money
if you desire for a piece of land on
this planet if this is considered greed
now you want to know the very source of
creation this is super green isn't it so
where is the question of dissociating it
is evolution of desire not associating
with desire your desire is evolved when
you are a five-year-old child what you
desired for completely fell away when
you were 10 what you desire for when you
were 10 completely was meaningless when
you're 15 what you desired as 15 when
you're 30 doesn't make any sense
so your desire is evolving if you evolve
very slowly you will go at this pace if
you go
your experience and think beyond and
reason beyond where you are right now as
you sit here if you understand that
after all you and me are mortal
whatever we may do when you understand
your motto naturally the question of
what is beyond where did I come from
where will I go
this is naturally in the purview of
human intellect see if you are not given
ready-made answers by somebody it is
very very natural that every human
intellect will inquire where did I come
from where will I go what is the nature
of my existence so this is not
dissociating from desire this is just
evolving your desire to a new
possibility I'm going to bring Javid
selves into the conversation in a bit
Javed sir I just want to prove this a
little more I'll finish it
Sadhguru G Javed Sahab this is called
theatrical timing you've got a clap for
saying nothing actually
[Laughter]
Sadhguru G you know we we've called our
session five stars fixes because and the
reason I'm saying this is because
perhaps it's something that one doesn't
understand that to be a part of your
course which actually a lot of my
friends have taken and I must admit that
it does transform them the breathing
techniques they come back , people but
it costs a lot how is your spirituality
your technique your old technology is
not available for the poor I want you to
understand this
70% of ISA Foundation's work is in rural
India where it's 100% free I'm just
rubbing you to keep that 70% actor
so you need to understand this we charge
one way in the United States another way
in UK another way in Lebanon anna devane
Zelenka another way in India one way in
Mumbai one way in there some one way in
a local town and in the village it's
free you've got to give you accountants
to the government and above all the
volume of work our volunteers are doing
is all funded by this the amount of
medical work free medical work that's
happening education very involved with
about thirty six thousand children right
now actively with the largest ecological
moment in the country
nowhere in the history of independent
India has this happened in any state
Tamil Nadu is green cover has gone up
7.2% in a matter of eight years with 17
million living trees that we have
planted so where does money come from
all this guru that doesn't answer my
question because you do a lot of rural
outreach and one knows that those who do
not have money should come and take it
in the village it's free no I I was
talking about now the thing is five-star
culture people want air-conditioned
rooms people want all the comfort and
they want it free how does it come
somebody has to pay for it to finish my
question it's not about you charging the
rich which is fine for the well-being
I was asking whether your breathing
techniques your technology of
self-actualization whether that is
available to the poor your meditative
techniques you know not use I'm talking
about the meditative techniques all the
inner engineering programs in the
villages are free 100% free one other
question which is about your central
philosophy is to do with yoga and with
breathing techniques but there is also
another I would like to dissociate from
that word philosophy technology is
connected with breathing techniques but
you also believe in in past life you
know
my colleagues spent a week with you at
the foundation and wrote a big piece and
he said that their people feel that they
can see disembodied selves that you know
your wife you felt was a sister from the
past life you know we've had James Randi
here who was shooting through this kind
of faith system and you said something
very interesting to my colleague you
know when he was being skeptical about
this whole idea of past life and seeing
spirits that are disembodied you said
the reason you disbelieve all this is
because your mind is in the UK and
Greenwich Mean Time you know and not in
India so is it really about conditioning
of minds it is not about conditioning of
minds let's look at it this way when you
were born
you were not made like this isn't it you
are so small now this much happen how so
what you call as my body is an
accumulation accumulation it's just a
piece of planet that you accumulate
through the food that you eat what you
call as my mind is a heap of impressions
which you also accumulate or a period of
time so your body is an accumulation
your mind is an accumulation what you
accumulate at the most you can claim
it's yours but you cannot say it's me
isn't it it's like the five percent of
the universe that we understand now one
of the scientists will tell you no no
I'm not talking about that say right now
whatever you accumulate you can claim
it's yours but you cannot claim it's
mean isn't it what you accumulate cannot
be you isn't it
so you gathered your body you gathered
the whole volume of your mind so what
the hell are you never even looked at
isn't it you're making assumptions so
your personality your ideologies
everything picked up everything
accumulated you can accumulate and keep
it and use it but you can never claim
it's mind everybody should get this now
if you don't get it now you'll get it
from the maggots
sub-group use you had you had amount of
sin a moment when you were young when
you felt that you were instantly
transformed you don't speak of it much
but you also you know you also told
people that you would die at 42 but you
didn't so I'm sorry to disappoint you
but that again puts all this realm into
you know I mean I'm somebody in the
middle zone people who who know me well
always tease me about how I try to be a
rationalist but I always believe in the
paranormal but you know there is no
precision to it so how you know how do
you square with that
what would your deputies say if you said
something you know the paranormal is not
empirical so these are all words we keep
on inventing more words for all this
this is just lying in the sense now when
you talk about past lives present life I
always tell people do not ever believe
these things at the same time do not be
a fool and disbelieve it because belief
and disbelief means just this you
believe something or you disbelieve
something essentially means you are not
straight enough to admit that you do not
know you have not understood the
immensity of I do not know because I do
not know is it tremendous possibility
only if you see I do not know the
possibility of knowing ever arises in
you so this must be clearly demarcated
see the moment you say and religious you
refer to yourself as a believer the
moment you refer to somebody as
spiritual you refer to him as a seeker
who can see only one who is realized
that he does not know can seek if he
thinks he knows why will he seek if we
come to you Javed sir
now start for seeking Joe it's up you
have to not be theatrical with me will
we live in a country yeah of great
faiths you are part of a creative space
that very often expresses stories
through faith
you're a committed rationalist you know
if we see the finiteness of faith would
you accept that there's a finiteness to
just reason as well first of all I think
before starting any discussion one
should always decide on the meaning of
words
maybe you mean something by faith and I
am understanding something else what is
faith and what is the difference between
faith and belief I believe I am in Goa I
believe there is a place called North
Pole I believe that the two pies a poor
country I believe that Germany is a rich
country is it my faith why it is not my
faith I'll tell you why cuz not by faith
and white is my belief because it is
reasonable anything any belief which is
devoid of logic reason rational evidence
witness that is faith anything which is
devoid of all the logic all the reason
all the ration all the witness all the
evidence that have failed and I really
wonder what is the difference between
faith and his stupidity because that is
it has property they have the same
definition
I am willing to I am willing to accept
belief but it has to have some rationale
some reason if you don't have any you
disarm me from reason logic
now when you say that whatever mind is
is accumulated my body is accumulated
that is not me it is like saying that as
long as you can peel the onion you are
not finding the onion Jesus killed our
onion this accumulation this
accumulation is me if you eradicate this
accumulation I don't exist that's all
Javad sub I think I should respond to
this okay all right now you being in
nagpur right now for sure is you believe
that you being in goa right now is a
reality you better grasp courage
you just give me a moment there's a
reverberation here and B country or each
other could you just turn the speakers
towards us or maybe give Satguru G
another mic because we cannot that I
can't understand him I can't even hear
me
I I don't know about the battle between
faith and reason but wit certainly has
its place in society
probably the microphones are arranged in
such a way because anyway you and if you
hear you may understand thanks for the
compliments of guys three yeah yeah so
it will have come on man
so now I'll repeat for you you believing
that you're in Nagpur is for sure belief
but you're in Goa is a reality whether
you believe it or you don't believe it
that's how it is so there is a
difference between reality and belief if
you think whatever you believe is true I
want you to understand we can make you
believe just about anything if you work
hard enough on you we can make you
believe anything and when you believe
just about anything that is what we are
referring to as fate or it's passing off
as religion or faith will come to this
now
no let's let me be the moderator one
point nobody watchin I will I'll be
wrong maybe wrong logic the people in
the audience may I read it shall not be
corrected because it will not be a
stolen energy may I retain the esthetics
may I retain the aesthetics of this
session I really don't need anybody
telling me that I'm not going to let him
talk I will let him talk can we please
keep the aesthetics of this alive so so
this whole presumption and the way this
is going is coming from a certain
fundamental presumption because even
when I met Javed Sahab last time he was
telling me that some guru told him not
to use his mind I do not know which go
to set this one thing is clear the
advice has been taken seriously never
taken any I have I have not taken any
guru seriously I promise you that in the
rich tradition in the rich tradition of
the argumentative Indians yeah it
remained with the argument it never got
personal both of you so I just wanted to
come back job itself to this whole issue
of of the finiteness of a reason you
know we just saw Ramanujan for instance
he was intuitive he didn't know how he
arrived at at that Matt but he arrived
at it I have absolutely no argument with
the fact that reason is the highest
condition of man as we understand it but
is there not space for something beyond
I empirical understanding course but
there is no hero around it there is
nothing like it spiritual about it when
you look at the fan and that the fan is
running on full speed you can't see the
blades it doesn't mean there are no
trains you know when you think very
quickly you may not see the reason but
when you will sit back and analyze it if
the conclusion is right then there is
a logical step behind it you have not
seen it at that moment because your
conscious mind is not the only mind you
have many parts of the mind you lose a
key and you try to remember you can't
and then you're talking to somebody else
and some certainly you remember where
you have kept the key because a part of
your brain was working on it so brain is
a very complicated machine mind is the
most sophisticated computer on in this
universe at the moment so you have to
understand the functioning if Ramanujam
understood it he understood it in a
language which he knew why he did not
understand in Chinese though he proved
that is not possible symmetry what will
come will come from your mind you are
nothing but your mind and if that is
really captured you don't exist but
Ramanujan actually believed that the
goddess was giving him that intuition
how do you reconcile that would you say
that he was something I mean after all
he was a human being so what he wouldn't
be right all the time
sub-group before I come back to you
Javed 7 another function of faith is you
know in its in its refined form not as
religion not as public religion but as
faith can sometimes be the impulse for
also the most noble of human endeavor
whether we are about it the faith can
make you do wonderful things and the
worst thing possible these society
embers are people of faith if they would
have been reasonable they wouldn't have
done that but but equally Jove itself
faith is a blind power faith paralyzes
your mind and now you are capable of
doing something exceptionally good and
something exceptionally bad but you are
out of control you can go either way
what about the ultra rationalist the
Communists the Stalinist regimes no no
no they are not rational is there
communism they have a fit they believe
in communism think I am not only against
religion with spiritualism which is the
debris of religion I am I am again v if
communism is your faith then you are
half bad and the religious person that's
well quit so so what do you live with
then if you don't live with a belief
system what do you live with right you
know you're talking of extremities but
how about how about common sense
[Applause]
it'll do for the moment I'm going to
come back Javed sir with a scientific
question for you which is about stories
human-beings need stories to live with
you know we've met a lot of scientists a
lot of astrophysicists even in science
there is the idea of the story I don't
know much about it and if you question
me too much I'll falter but you know the
universe professor Gunnison was telling
us that we understand only 5% of the
universe there's 95% we don't understand
and we both met Richard Dawkins in
Jaipur earlier this year and he was
suggesting that outside of this universe
there could be multiverses now that is
not something we know it is a belief in
in something that is not a believed it
is a guess maybe maybe not know it's a
story you live with why can't we live
with other stories in the meantime which
give people a sense of such in their
life a sense of solace you see what is
the problem that as long as you have
curiosity as long as and he said very
rightly and I totally agree with him
that you should be humble enough to
accept that there are many things that
you don't know and only then you
research what is wrong with religions
that you know everything they can tell
you how to make a universal for easy
lessons they can they will tell you
whatever you were before you were born
and where will you go after your death
and so on so they have all the answers
that's it the problem
Sakura gee that's so that's you know
when you said that essentially the
spiritual person is a seeker why is it
that gurus give the answers I don't know
but you guru gave an answer I haven't
met one like that if you've met they're
all the wrong ones I couldn't help it
no go to ever give an answer gurus only
give methods to deepen your process I
asked you what your method was so now
we're talking about thought and the
event itself is called think so let me
let's just look at this your thought
your thought is essentially coming from
the information that is already there in
your mind the data that is there in your
mind it's complex but it is within the
limited data that you have how did you
gather this data this data you gathered
through the agencies of five senses by
seeing by hearing smelling tasting and
touching this is the way it's gone into
you these are the five instruments which
are taking in all the data in your
wakefulness and sleep this data is being
gathered all the time even in your sleep
in deep sleep if I say something we can
hypnotize you and make you remember that
actually because even in sleep you're
recording but it is only through these
five senses these five senses are not
reliable in the sense if I touch this
table it would my hand will tell me it's
cool
but if I lowered my body temperature and
touch it
my hand will tell me it's wrong so it
doesn't say anything about that it only
tells me the information that is
necessary for my survival if survival is
all you're seeking these five senses are
okay but if you're seeking something
beyond survival you need to expand the
dimension of your perception so the
whole spiritual process is about how to
expand your perception because only what
you perceive is life rest is just
imagination if you want to be in touch
with reality
you have to enhance your perception and
just assuming
what see this thing happened across the
history when people believed the planet
is flat somebody said it's around he got
killed
okay now everybody thought they can only
walk somebody says I can fly he was
almost killed
so this has happened continuously
because people believing whatever I do
not know cannot exist is the crown of
ignorance Jove it's up that's that's a
Wally that I hand to you you know that
at every lat every point in history the
limits of reality has been pushed by
those who imagine or have faith in
something that doesn't yet exist not at
all not at all
first of all it's not I mean the first
thing if spiritualist will do will try
to shake your confidence in the five
senses that you have only then he can
control you now if you think that you
will believe him any other thing then
take a person do an operation on him
disconnect him with his brain and then
let us see how he expands its
personality whatever expansion happens
happens in your mind and you cannot
undermine it and whoever suggests that
that is to be undermined is playing the
very dangerous game with you that's what
then you will not have any discretion
how will you decide whatever whatever
he's saying is right or wrong and
whatever he's saying is you here using
his brain he doesn't want you to use you
obey
from there this concept um have it come
from well from their testimony
it has come from the mind even if you
think that the mind is not everything
that too has come from the mind if you
don't just mind how do you trust this
part good job it's up yeah you said the
five senses as a writer as an artist as
a human being yeah
don't you sometimes have a sixth sense
about something please understand you
see there are like between countries
there are no man lands between India and
Pakistan between India and China that
Roman family in you between your
subconscious and between your conscious
mind there is a Roman land and what
happens that if you rely only on your
current thinking on your mind a brain is
also like how your mind your conscious
mind is your living room but then you
have other rooms you have a taste
you have bedrooms you have basements
within your brain then you relax and you
allow the other part of your mind to
take over then your conscious mind and
your subconscious they work together in
partnership and ultimately something
comes which comes from you move comes
from your mind but from that part of
mind which more often than not you are
not using that's all but it is the mind
ultimately
[Applause]
now Kenneth we're talking about stories
can I say his story stories a Nutella
story yeah sure please but just speak a
bit louder yes on a certain day a lady
went to sleep in her sleep she had a
dream in her dream she saw a hunk of a
man standing there staring at her he
started coming closer and closer he came
so close she could even feel his breath
and she trembled not in fear and then
she asked what will you do to me the man
said well lady it's your dream now what
happens in your mind is just essentially
you dream just being in a constant state
of flowing thoughts all the time 24
hours thoughts are flowing this is not
this does not signify intelligence this
suggests diarrhea mental diarrhea
constantly it is on and on and on now if
one has made an effort one has strived
to look beyond the firmament of the mind
one would know other dimensions simply
denying that nothing like that exists
because I do not know it is I don't know
he doesn't need comments security but
you just said that the five senses are
unreliable but just to come back to that
license is being unreliable let me come
to this right now what your vision
visual sense understands his light many
of the creatures on the planet
understand it as darkness isn't it so
you sit with an owl and start an
argument as to which is light and which
is darkness you will end up with an
endless argument so who is right you
insist you're right but that is the
whole problem people insisting that
their right is the whole problem on the
planet what's a guru if if the whole
point of
your technology is to make people actual
eyes themselves why in the modern world
is there still cult creation why does
your photograph adorn every devotees who
or every practitioners home why do they
not just take the technology and become
independent spirits themselves see you
don't mind if you don't mind if a rock
stars picture is in somebody's house
okay but people he lives a bad life
he is drugged out but you don't mind if
a film stars picture is there it doesn't
matter if the 12 girls from the
Kingfisher calender don't your house you
do not matter but you have something
with me what is the problem
I'll tell you what the rock
yeah I'll tell you I'll job itself I'll
come to you but I'll tell you what my
problem with that is is that by and
large what Javed Sahab was saying
earlier is that with the following of a
guru even if the Guru doesn't want it
there is a giving up of oneself there's
a subjugation of one's own thinking to a
you know to a guru and that takes people
sometimes to very dark places you know
you're willing to kill for a guru you
may not be willing to kill for the film
star but they do they don't didn't you
come in Tamil not one see people will
kill for the film star you know if a
film star is having a wonderful time
you don't resent if a rock star is
having a wonderful time I mean he's
doing what in his vocation in his
profession
you don't reason if a guru is going put
in his profession is having a good time
why should you return it some not
definitely what's your problem
sure now this is this is the operation
of rationalism the equation should hold
good they then have good time job
[Applause]
Sakuragi one quick question I think my
colleague is going to ring the bell any
minute you know I saw a film recently in
America made by a young man and it's
called the truce - the true story of a
fake guru he dressed himself up as a
guru and he went and he met a whole lot
of people he listened to their sorrows
he listened to their stories he put
three pictures in front of them he
brought them into this sense of ecstasy
inhalation and they began to transform
themselves they completely believed in
him and they began to follow him they
felt that they arrived at a safe harbor
at the end of the film and they're being
filmed through this whole journey at the
end of it
no no feels himself you know about it he
reveals himself he's just a young man
from Canada from Phoenix what is the
answer to that see this is why I want
you to make a distinction between faith
and a spiritual process faith is just a
set of beliefs spiritual process begins
only when you realize that you do not
know the fundamentals of your existence
and seeking begins when a seeking begins
and you find your sense organs and your
logic only takes you to a certain point
and it's not willing to help you beyond
that then when you come to your dead end
you know there is something beyond but
you're at a dead end then you will want
a normal process so then somebody who
has experienced it will offer a process
this is all it is now in society it
might have fire found all kinds of
distortions you picking up a bad apple
and talking about apples Satguru
consumption in this universe in this
earth is really becoming something
unsustainable what kind of spirituality
is it that does not talk about the
finite end of consumption you know even
as a even as a method even as a process
that is not part of Asia foundation at
all see we are always trying to curtail
human aspirations it'll never work if I
tell somebody don't smoke don't do this
don't do that they will not do
they'll anyway continue to do it or
other kinds of Campbell's compulsions
will take them over but if you teach
them a method through which they're able
to manage the chemistry of who they are
today there is substantial medical and
scientific evidence it is no more belief
system there is substantial scientific
and medical evidence today research has
gone into this University of California
has done an enormous research and the
simple Shambo Muhammad are the basic
practice that we teach three months of
practice you're the neuronal
regeneration rejuvenation in your brain
is two hundred and forty-one percent
more than the average okay there any
number of things like this now the
chemical soup that you are you can
either make it very blissful or
miserable so if you are blissful by your
own nature then all the compulsiveness
will naturally drop whether you're going
shopping or you're digging up the planet
or you seeking something else
essentially it is just this a human
being is what longing to be a human
being is longing to be something more
than what he is right now
but if that more happens he wants more
if you really look at it a human being
cannot settle unless he has all of it if
you want all of it approaching it
through physical means is a hopeless
means the design is fine but the method
is hopeless so spiritual process means
you have offered him the right method
right process for the same design job
it's a view on jealousy I really find it
highly amusing it's very interesting
that it is in religion it is in
spirituality the moment they find
something in science which is compatible
they start respecting science they said
look now even the science has accepted
it but the moment science is opposing
them then it is not credible at all and
it is the history there was a question
which I missed that time we have to
understand through spiritualism that why
we are in this universe what are we
doing here why have we come here I don't
want to
commend about anybody else's presence
but guru ji I know why I'm in this
universe and the reason is unprintable
and the reason is unprintable offensive
it is a pompous question that why I am
in this universe it is a pompous
question what I am doing here have you
ever thought of a mosquito
why did mosquito is here in this world
why this porch is here tell it as far as
life quality is concerned there is no
difference between a Roden and a human
being between a mosquito and a human
being the only difference is the mind
and this is the difference they want to
eradicate
[Applause]
obviously this has no relevance to
whatever I'm speaking it looks like it's
not even being heard so the thing is the
significant aspect of that the
significant aspect of human life is that
human life is replete with possibilities
which other creatures are not capable of
every other creature on this planet is
fulfilled when its survival process is
fulfilled there is something about a
human being that it does not settle with
survival what is called as human begins
only after survival is taken care off
so the longing to be an endless
expansion cannot be settled by the
simplicity of thought thought is just a
product of the data that we have
gathered and whatever you may know it is
still too limited that much is
established by science so about science
and spiritual process ever being head-on
with each other such a thing has never
happened it is just that you have not
been exposed to the right things as I
said earlier you eat a bad apple and you
make conclusions about all apples it's
an unfortunate reality of one's life I'm
going to have to end it at that my
takeaway from this are two things one
that in India we've had a glorious
tradition of the argumentation between
men of faith and men of reason there
were the navaratna in King Akbar Scott
and the big takeaway that I think both
of them will agree with is that we can
first learn to operate with common sense
thank you so much for listening
you
[Music]