[00:04] [Music]
[00:09] we've talked of the material we've
[00:12] talked of the political we've talked of
[00:14] entertainment and art and cinema next up
[00:17] we're going to talk about faith in
[00:20] reason and its place in society and the
[00:23] various forms that faith is taking in
[00:26] the modern world we have Jaggi Vasudev
[00:29] Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev the head of
[00:37] Ischia foundation that has centers
[00:40] across a hundred and sixty cities across
[00:42] the world two hundred to two million
[00:44] volunteers and of and a following that
[00:48] is passionate and urban and mystical
[00:52] with him
[00:53] we have Javed Akhtar lyricist script
[00:56] writer legendary man of cinema but also
[01:00] somebody who is a committed and fierce
[01:02] rationalist both of them will be talking
[01:05] about the space for faith and reason in
[01:08] our society please welcome them on stage
[01:12] you have a passion for snakes SUVs bikes
[01:18] helicopters adventure travel you have a
[01:22] flair for entrepreneurship your passion
[01:25] is the construction business and your
[01:27] asset guru can you spell out what is the
[01:30] core philosophy of your foundation of
[01:33] your practices and how do these two
[01:36] aspects of you sit together good evening
[01:41] everyone first of all let me correct
[01:44] that
[01:44] I have no passion for snakes or SUVs or
[01:48] helicopters I'm just passionate about
[01:50] life and just about anything that I do
[01:53] it's not about this or that I do not
[01:57] know how to do anything without absolute
[02:00] involvement so passion is a word that
[02:03] people attach but it's just that just
[02:07] about anything that I do I do not know
[02:10] how to do it without absolute
[02:11] involvement because it's only with
[02:15] involvement one knows life it doesn't
[02:19] matter whether you're doing business or
[02:21] art or music spirituality doesn't matter
[02:22] what you're doing if you're not involved
[02:25] you'll miss it all so I'm just involved
[02:29] these are all names that people attach
[02:32] there's only a few things that people
[02:34] have seen well you know I'll come back
[02:37] to this strand of materialism sitting
[02:40] well with spirituality but before that
[02:42] you know you say that what you your
[02:45] philosophy is not even a teaching it's a
[02:47] technology and it just works what is
[02:50] that can you articulate it and what does
[02:53] it mean when they have to be personal
[02:54] endeavor one doesn't have to be a
[02:56] learner but you can just achieve a
[02:58] technology so this is there is no
[03:02] philosophy because generally
[03:06] philosophies are just fantastic
[03:08] explanations for those aspects of life
[03:11] which can never be explained so they
[03:15] essentially we're here whatever you
[03:21] think about it is just your thought but
[03:23] the fact of it is if you look at this as
[03:27] a human being
[03:28] this human mechanism is the most
[03:32] sophisticated technology on the planet
[03:37] whatever other gadgets that we have they
[03:40] all come out of it out of this one this
[03:43] is the most sophisticated mechanism you
[03:47] see today people are deeply engrossed in
[03:50] their iPhones but what would I this is
[03:54] the thing this is the gadget if you pay
[03:57] enough attention to this you would
[03:59] understand how to operate this at its
[04:02] highest possible mode so the whole
[04:06] process that we refer to as spiritual is
[04:08] just this so that this mechanism attains
[04:12] its fullest capability and possibility
[04:15] that it doesn't just operate in a
[04:16] minimalistic way so that's why it's a
[04:20] technology philosophies have happened
[04:23] because of the misunderstanding
[04:25] the technology otherwise essentially
[04:27] only technologies were transmitted you
[04:29] might if you look back and see there
[04:31] were no teachings in this country there
[04:33] were only methods methods how to do it
[04:37] how to make this happen at its highest
[04:40] possible level so once we enter this
[04:42] fear being a subjective dimension of
[04:44] life you have a body you have a mind you
[04:47] have emotions you have energy supporting
[04:50] this all these three so when we handle
[04:52] all these four dimensions some of it may
[04:56] not come under the purview of
[04:57] rudimentary logic and reason that a lot
[05:00] of people subscribe to because of that
[05:03] rudimentary level of reasoning they
[05:05] think it's beyond reason it is very much
[05:07] in reason if you probe into it we can go
[05:09] into it but in fact you know before we
[05:15] go further with that in the past you
[05:18] said yes that you know in India there's
[05:20] always been methods there hasn't been
[05:22] teachings but the purpose of
[05:24] spirituality was to some extent to
[05:27] disconnect people from desire from
[05:29] materialism to understand the limits of
[05:32] that why is it that with the Isha
[05:35] Foundation's philosophy just
[05:37] self-actualization is the goal you know
[05:40] expressing yourself to the maximum you
[05:43] can rather than to understand the
[05:45] finiteness of that say yeah
[05:49] this understanding that spiritual means
[05:52] you have to disassociate you with desire
[05:54] let's understand it this way if you
[05:58] desire for food if you desire for money
[06:00] if you desire for a piece of land on
[06:03] this planet if this is considered greed
[06:05] now you want to know the very source of
[06:08] creation this is super green isn't it so
[06:11] where is the question of dissociating it
[06:13] is evolution of desire not associating
[06:15] with desire your desire is evolved when
[06:18] you are a five-year-old child what you
[06:20] desired for completely fell away when
[06:22] you were 10 what you desire for when you
[06:25] were 10 completely was meaningless when
[06:27] you're 15 what you desired as 15 when
[06:29] you're 30 doesn't make any sense
[06:31] so your desire is evolving if you evolve
[06:34] very slowly you will go at this pace if
[06:38] you go
[06:38] your experience and think beyond and
[06:41] reason beyond where you are right now as
[06:43] you sit here if you understand that
[06:46] after all you and me are mortal
[06:47] whatever we may do when you understand
[06:50] your motto naturally the question of
[06:52] what is beyond where did I come from
[06:54] where will I go
[06:55] this is naturally in the purview of
[06:57] human intellect see if you are not given
[07:02] ready-made answers by somebody it is
[07:04] very very natural that every human
[07:07] intellect will inquire where did I come
[07:10] from where will I go what is the nature
[07:11] of my existence so this is not
[07:14] dissociating from desire this is just
[07:17] evolving your desire to a new
[07:18] possibility I'm going to bring Javid
[07:23] selves into the conversation in a bit
[07:24] Javed sir I just want to prove this a
[07:26] little more I'll finish it
[07:34] Sadhguru G Javed Sahab this is called
[07:40] theatrical timing you've got a clap for
[07:42] saying nothing actually
[07:43] [Laughter]
[07:46] Sadhguru G you know we we've called our
[07:49] session five stars fixes because and the
[07:53] reason I'm saying this is because
[07:54] perhaps it's something that one doesn't
[07:56] understand that to be a part of your
[07:59] course which actually a lot of my
[08:00] friends have taken and I must admit that
[08:02] it does transform them the breathing
[08:04] techniques they come back , people but
[08:08] it costs a lot how is your spirituality
[08:13] your technique your old technology is
[08:16] not available for the poor I want you to
[08:19] understand this
[08:20] 70% of ISA Foundation's work is in rural
[08:24] India where it's 100% free I'm just
[08:28] rubbing you to keep that 70% actor
[08:40] so you need to understand this we charge
[08:46] one way in the United States another way
[08:49] in UK another way in Lebanon anna devane
[08:52] Zelenka another way in India one way in
[08:55] Mumbai one way in there some one way in
[08:58] a local town and in the village it's
[09:00] free you've got to give you accountants
[09:02] to the government and above all the
[09:08] volume of work our volunteers are doing
[09:10] is all funded by this the amount of
[09:13] medical work free medical work that's
[09:15] happening education very involved with
[09:18] about thirty six thousand children right
[09:19] now actively with the largest ecological
[09:22] moment in the country
[09:23] nowhere in the history of independent
[09:25] India has this happened in any state
[09:28] Tamil Nadu is green cover has gone up
[09:30] 7.2% in a matter of eight years with 17
[09:33] million living trees that we have
[09:35] planted so where does money come from
[09:39] all this guru that doesn't answer my
[09:42] question because you do a lot of rural
[09:45] outreach and one knows that those who do
[09:49] not have money should come and take it
[09:51] in the village it's free no I I was
[09:53] talking about now the thing is five-star
[09:56] culture people want air-conditioned
[09:58] rooms people want all the comfort and
[10:00] they want it free how does it come
[10:02] somebody has to pay for it to finish my
[10:06] question it's not about you charging the
[10:08] rich which is fine for the well-being
[10:11] I was asking whether your breathing
[10:12] techniques your technology of
[10:15] self-actualization whether that is
[10:16] available to the poor your meditative
[10:19] techniques you know not use I'm talking
[10:21] about the meditative techniques all the
[10:24] inner engineering programs in the
[10:26] villages are free 100% free one other
[10:32] question which is about your central
[10:34] philosophy is to do with yoga and with
[10:36] breathing techniques but there is also
[10:38] another I would like to dissociate from
[10:40] that word philosophy technology is
[10:43] connected with breathing techniques but
[10:47] you also believe in in past life you
[10:50] know
[10:50] my colleagues spent a week with you at
[10:53] the foundation and wrote a big piece and
[10:55] he said that their people feel that they
[10:57] can see disembodied selves that you know
[11:00] your wife you felt was a sister from the
[11:03] past life you know we've had James Randi
[11:07] here who was shooting through this kind
[11:09] of faith system and you said something
[11:12] very interesting to my colleague you
[11:13] know when he was being skeptical about
[11:15] this whole idea of past life and seeing
[11:17] spirits that are disembodied you said
[11:19] the reason you disbelieve all this is
[11:21] because your mind is in the UK and
[11:23] Greenwich Mean Time you know and not in
[11:24] India so is it really about conditioning
[11:27] of minds it is not about conditioning of
[11:29] minds let's look at it this way when you
[11:33] were born
[11:34] you were not made like this isn't it you
[11:36] are so small now this much happen how so
[11:40] what you call as my body is an
[11:41] accumulation accumulation it's just a
[11:47] piece of planet that you accumulate
[11:48] through the food that you eat what you
[11:51] call as my mind is a heap of impressions
[11:53] which you also accumulate or a period of
[11:55] time so your body is an accumulation
[11:57] your mind is an accumulation what you
[12:01] accumulate at the most you can claim
[12:04] it's yours but you cannot say it's me
[12:07] isn't it it's like the five percent of
[12:09] the universe that we understand now one
[12:11] of the scientists will tell you no no
[12:12] I'm not talking about that say right now
[12:14] whatever you accumulate you can claim
[12:17] it's yours but you cannot claim it's
[12:20] mean isn't it what you accumulate cannot
[12:23] be you isn't it
[12:24] so you gathered your body you gathered
[12:27] the whole volume of your mind so what
[12:30] the hell are you never even looked at
[12:33] isn't it you're making assumptions so
[12:36] your personality your ideologies
[12:38] everything picked up everything
[12:41] accumulated you can accumulate and keep
[12:44] it and use it but you can never claim
[12:46] it's mind everybody should get this now
[12:49] if you don't get it now you'll get it
[12:51] from the maggots
[12:55] sub-group use you had you had amount of
[12:58] sin a moment when you were young when
[13:01] you felt that you were instantly
[13:02] transformed you don't speak of it much
[13:05] but you also you know you also told
[13:07] people that you would die at 42 but you
[13:09] didn't so I'm sorry to disappoint you
[13:14] but that again puts all this realm into
[13:19] you know I mean I'm somebody in the
[13:22] middle zone people who who know me well
[13:23] always tease me about how I try to be a
[13:25] rationalist but I always believe in the
[13:27] paranormal but you know there is no
[13:29] precision to it so how you know how do
[13:32] you square with that
[13:33] what would your deputies say if you said
[13:35] something you know the paranormal is not
[13:38] empirical so these are all words we keep
[13:43] on inventing more words for all this
[13:45] this is just lying in the sense now when
[13:53] you talk about past lives present life I
[13:55] always tell people do not ever believe
[13:57] these things at the same time do not be
[14:01] a fool and disbelieve it because belief
[14:05] and disbelief means just this you
[14:08] believe something or you disbelieve
[14:09] something essentially means you are not
[14:12] straight enough to admit that you do not
[14:14] know you have not understood the
[14:16] immensity of I do not know because I do
[14:19] not know is it tremendous possibility
[14:21] only if you see I do not know the
[14:24] possibility of knowing ever arises in
[14:27] you so this must be clearly demarcated
[14:31] see the moment you say and religious you
[14:34] refer to yourself as a believer the
[14:37] moment you refer to somebody as
[14:38] spiritual you refer to him as a seeker
[14:41] who can see only one who is realized
[14:45] that he does not know can seek if he
[14:49] thinks he knows why will he seek if we
[14:52] come to you Javed sir
[14:59] now start for seeking Joe it's up you
[15:05] have to not be theatrical with me will
[15:09] we live in a country yeah of great
[15:12] faiths you are part of a creative space
[15:17] that very often expresses stories
[15:20] through faith
[15:22] you're a committed rationalist you know
[15:24] if we see the finiteness of faith would
[15:27] you accept that there's a finiteness to
[15:29] just reason as well first of all I think
[15:34] before starting any discussion one
[15:36] should always decide on the meaning of
[15:40] words
[15:40] maybe you mean something by faith and I
[15:43] am understanding something else what is
[15:45] faith and what is the difference between
[15:48] faith and belief I believe I am in Goa I
[15:52] believe there is a place called North
[15:55] Pole I believe that the two pies a poor
[15:58] country I believe that Germany is a rich
[16:00] country is it my faith why it is not my
[16:05] faith I'll tell you why cuz not by faith
[16:08] and white is my belief because it is
[16:10] reasonable anything any belief which is
[16:15] devoid of logic reason rational evidence
[16:21] witness that is faith anything which is
[16:30] devoid of all the logic all the reason
[16:32] all the ration all the witness all the
[16:35] evidence that have failed and I really
[16:39] wonder what is the difference between
[16:40] faith and his stupidity because that is
[16:42] it has property they have the same
[16:44] definition
[16:46] I am willing to I am willing to accept
[16:51] belief but it has to have some rationale
[16:54] some reason if you don't have any you
[16:59] disarm me from reason logic
[17:01] now when you say that whatever mind is
[17:05] is accumulated my body is accumulated
[17:09] that is not me it is like saying that as
[17:13] long as you can peel the onion you are
[17:16] not finding the onion Jesus killed our
[17:19] onion this accumulation this
[17:22] accumulation is me if you eradicate this
[17:26] accumulation I don't exist that's all
[17:29] Javad sub I think I should respond to
[17:33] this okay all right now you being in
[17:43] nagpur right now for sure is you believe
[17:46] that you being in goa right now is a
[17:48] reality you better grasp courage
[17:52] you just give me a moment there's a
[17:53] reverberation here and B country or each
[17:55] other could you just turn the speakers
[17:57] towards us or maybe give Satguru G
[18:02] another mic because we cannot that I
[18:04] can't understand him I can't even hear
[18:05] me
[18:10] I I don't know about the battle between
[18:18] faith and reason but wit certainly has
[18:21] its place in society
[18:24] probably the microphones are arranged in
[18:26] such a way because anyway you and if you
[18:28] hear you may understand thanks for the
[18:35] compliments of guys three yeah yeah so
[18:44] it will have come on man
[18:58] so now I'll repeat for you you believing
[19:07] that you're in Nagpur is for sure belief
[19:11] but you're in Goa is a reality whether
[19:15] you believe it or you don't believe it
[19:17] that's how it is so there is a
[19:19] difference between reality and belief if
[19:23] you think whatever you believe is true I
[19:27] want you to understand we can make you
[19:30] believe just about anything if you work
[19:33] hard enough on you we can make you
[19:35] believe anything and when you believe
[19:36] just about anything that is what we are
[19:39] referring to as fate or it's passing off
[19:41] as religion or faith will come to this
[19:43] now
[19:55] no let's let me be the moderator one
[19:58] point nobody watchin I will I'll be
[20:07] wrong maybe wrong logic the people in
[20:11] the audience may I read it shall not be
[20:14] corrected because it will not be a
[20:16] stolen energy may I retain the esthetics
[20:19] may I retain the aesthetics of this
[20:22] session I really don't need anybody
[20:24] telling me that I'm not going to let him
[20:25] talk I will let him talk can we please
[20:27] keep the aesthetics of this alive so so
[20:32] this whole presumption and the way this
[20:35] is going is coming from a certain
[20:37] fundamental presumption because even
[20:39] when I met Javed Sahab last time he was
[20:42] telling me that some guru told him not
[20:45] to use his mind I do not know which go
[20:48] to set this one thing is clear the
[20:51] advice has been taken seriously never
[21:03] taken any I have I have not taken any
[21:08] guru seriously I promise you that in the
[21:10] rich tradition in the rich tradition of
[21:13] the argumentative Indians yeah it
[21:15] remained with the argument it never got
[21:17] personal both of you so I just wanted to
[21:20] come back job itself to this whole issue
[21:21] of of the finiteness of a reason you
[21:25] know we just saw Ramanujan for instance
[21:28] he was intuitive he didn't know how he
[21:31] arrived at at that Matt but he arrived
[21:33] at it I have absolutely no argument with
[21:37] the fact that reason is the highest
[21:39] condition of man as we understand it but
[21:41] is there not space for something beyond
[21:43] I empirical understanding course but
[21:47] there is no hero around it there is
[21:49] nothing like it spiritual about it when
[21:52] you look at the fan and that the fan is
[21:54] running on full speed you can't see the
[21:56] blades it doesn't mean there are no
[21:58] trains you know when you think very
[22:00] quickly you may not see the reason but
[22:03] when you will sit back and analyze it if
[22:06] the conclusion is right then there is
[22:08] a logical step behind it you have not
[22:13] seen it at that moment because your
[22:15] conscious mind is not the only mind you
[22:18] have many parts of the mind you lose a
[22:20] key and you try to remember you can't
[22:23] and then you're talking to somebody else
[22:25] and some certainly you remember where
[22:28] you have kept the key because a part of
[22:30] your brain was working on it so brain is
[22:33] a very complicated machine mind is the
[22:36] most sophisticated computer on in this
[22:39] universe at the moment so you have to
[22:43] understand the functioning if Ramanujam
[22:45] understood it he understood it in a
[22:47] language which he knew why he did not
[22:49] understand in Chinese though he proved
[22:51] that is not possible symmetry what will
[22:56] come will come from your mind you are
[22:59] nothing but your mind and if that is
[23:03] really captured you don't exist but
[23:06] Ramanujan actually believed that the
[23:08] goddess was giving him that intuition
[23:11] how do you reconcile that would you say
[23:14] that he was something I mean after all
[23:15] he was a human being so what he wouldn't
[23:17] be right all the time
[23:26] sub-group before I come back to you
[23:28] Javed 7 another function of faith is you
[23:33] know in its in its refined form not as
[23:35] religion not as public religion but as
[23:37] faith can sometimes be the impulse for
[23:40] also the most noble of human endeavor
[23:44] whether we are about it the faith can
[23:48] make you do wonderful things and the
[23:50] worst thing possible these society
[23:52] embers are people of faith if they would
[23:55] have been reasonable they wouldn't have
[23:56] done that but but equally Jove itself
[23:59] faith is a blind power faith paralyzes
[24:03] your mind and now you are capable of
[24:07] doing something exceptionally good and
[24:09] something exceptionally bad but you are
[24:11] out of control you can go either way
[24:14] what about the ultra rationalist the
[24:17] Communists the Stalinist regimes no no
[24:19] no they are not rational is there
[24:21] communism they have a fit they believe
[24:25] in communism think I am not only against
[24:30] religion with spiritualism which is the
[24:32] debris of religion I am I am again v if
[24:38] communism is your faith then you are
[24:40] half bad and the religious person that's
[24:43] well quit so so what do you live with
[24:45] then if you don't live with a belief
[24:47] system what do you live with right you
[24:49] know you're talking of extremities but
[24:51] how about how about common sense
[24:55] [Applause]
[25:02] it'll do for the moment I'm going to
[25:06] come back Javed sir with a scientific
[25:08] question for you which is about stories
[25:10] human-beings need stories to live with
[25:13] you know we've met a lot of scientists a
[25:15] lot of astrophysicists even in science
[25:17] there is the idea of the story I don't
[25:21] know much about it and if you question
[25:22] me too much I'll falter but you know the
[25:25] universe professor Gunnison was telling
[25:27] us that we understand only 5% of the
[25:29] universe there's 95% we don't understand
[25:32] and we both met Richard Dawkins in
[25:34] Jaipur earlier this year and he was
[25:36] suggesting that outside of this universe
[25:38] there could be multiverses now that is
[25:40] not something we know it is a belief in
[25:42] in something that is not a believed it
[25:45] is a guess maybe maybe not know it's a
[25:47] story you live with why can't we live
[25:49] with other stories in the meantime which
[25:50] give people a sense of such in their
[25:53] life a sense of solace you see what is
[25:57] the problem that as long as you have
[25:59] curiosity as long as and he said very
[26:02] rightly and I totally agree with him
[26:04] that you should be humble enough to
[26:07] accept that there are many things that
[26:09] you don't know and only then you
[26:12] research what is wrong with religions
[26:14] that you know everything they can tell
[26:16] you how to make a universal for easy
[26:18] lessons they can they will tell you
[26:21] whatever you were before you were born
[26:24] and where will you go after your death
[26:26] and so on so they have all the answers
[26:29] that's it the problem
[26:37] Sakura gee that's so that's you know
[26:40] when you said that essentially the
[26:41] spiritual person is a seeker why is it
[26:44] that gurus give the answers I don't know
[26:48] but you guru gave an answer I haven't
[26:49] met one like that if you've met they're
[26:50] all the wrong ones I couldn't help it
[26:52] no go to ever give an answer gurus only
[26:55] give methods to deepen your process I
[26:59] asked you what your method was so now
[27:02] we're talking about thought and the
[27:06] event itself is called think so let me
[27:09] let's just look at this your thought
[27:11] your thought is essentially coming from
[27:15] the information that is already there in
[27:17] your mind the data that is there in your
[27:20] mind it's complex but it is within the
[27:23] limited data that you have how did you
[27:26] gather this data this data you gathered
[27:29] through the agencies of five senses by
[27:32] seeing by hearing smelling tasting and
[27:35] touching this is the way it's gone into
[27:36] you these are the five instruments which
[27:40] are taking in all the data in your
[27:42] wakefulness and sleep this data is being
[27:44] gathered all the time even in your sleep
[27:46] in deep sleep if I say something we can
[27:50] hypnotize you and make you remember that
[27:51] actually because even in sleep you're
[27:54] recording but it is only through these
[27:56] five senses these five senses are not
[27:59] reliable in the sense if I touch this
[28:04] table it would my hand will tell me it's
[28:08] cool
[28:09] but if I lowered my body temperature and
[28:12] touch it
[28:12] my hand will tell me it's wrong so it
[28:14] doesn't say anything about that it only
[28:17] tells me the information that is
[28:19] necessary for my survival if survival is
[28:22] all you're seeking these five senses are
[28:24] okay but if you're seeking something
[28:26] beyond survival you need to expand the
[28:29] dimension of your perception so the
[28:32] whole spiritual process is about how to
[28:34] expand your perception because only what
[28:37] you perceive is life rest is just
[28:39] imagination if you want to be in touch
[28:42] with reality
[28:43] you have to enhance your perception and
[28:45] just assuming
[28:47] what see this thing happened across the
[28:49] history when people believed the planet
[28:53] is flat somebody said it's around he got
[28:56] killed
[28:56] okay now everybody thought they can only
[29:01] walk somebody says I can fly he was
[29:04] almost killed
[29:05] so this has happened continuously
[29:07] because people believing whatever I do
[29:10] not know cannot exist is the crown of
[29:13] ignorance Jove it's up that's that's a
[29:22] Wally that I hand to you you know that
[29:24] at every lat every point in history the
[29:26] limits of reality has been pushed by
[29:29] those who imagine or have faith in
[29:31] something that doesn't yet exist not at
[29:33] all not at all
[29:35] first of all it's not I mean the first
[29:37] thing if spiritualist will do will try
[29:40] to shake your confidence in the five
[29:42] senses that you have only then he can
[29:46] control you now if you think that you
[29:51] will believe him any other thing then
[29:53] take a person do an operation on him
[29:56] disconnect him with his brain and then
[29:59] let us see how he expands its
[30:01] personality whatever expansion happens
[30:05] happens in your mind and you cannot
[30:08] undermine it and whoever suggests that
[30:11] that is to be undermined is playing the
[30:14] very dangerous game with you that's what
[30:16] then you will not have any discretion
[30:18] how will you decide whatever whatever
[30:20] he's saying is right or wrong and
[30:22] whatever he's saying is you here using
[30:24] his brain he doesn't want you to use you
[30:26] obey
[30:28] from there this concept um have it come
[30:31] from well from their testimony
[30:34] it has come from the mind even if you
[30:38] think that the mind is not everything
[30:39] that too has come from the mind if you
[30:41] don't just mind how do you trust this
[30:43] part good job it's up yeah you said the
[30:47] five senses as a writer as an artist as
[30:51] a human being yeah
[30:52] don't you sometimes have a sixth sense
[30:53] about something please understand you
[30:56] see there are like between countries
[30:58] there are no man lands between India and
[31:01] Pakistan between India and China that
[31:03] Roman family in you between your
[31:06] subconscious and between your conscious
[31:08] mind there is a Roman land and what
[31:11] happens that if you rely only on your
[31:15] current thinking on your mind a brain is
[31:19] also like how your mind your conscious
[31:22] mind is your living room but then you
[31:24] have other rooms you have a taste
[31:26] you have bedrooms you have basements
[31:28] within your brain then you relax and you
[31:32] allow the other part of your mind to
[31:34] take over then your conscious mind and
[31:37] your subconscious they work together in
[31:41] partnership and ultimately something
[31:44] comes which comes from you move comes
[31:46] from your mind but from that part of
[31:48] mind which more often than not you are
[31:50] not using that's all but it is the mind
[31:53] ultimately
[31:55] [Applause]
[32:01] now Kenneth we're talking about stories
[32:05] can I say his story stories a Nutella
[32:07] story yeah sure please but just speak a
[32:09] bit louder yes on a certain day a lady
[32:13] went to sleep in her sleep she had a
[32:18] dream in her dream she saw a hunk of a
[32:21] man standing there staring at her he
[32:24] started coming closer and closer he came
[32:27] so close she could even feel his breath
[32:29] and she trembled not in fear and then
[32:36] she asked what will you do to me the man
[32:40] said well lady it's your dream now what
[32:47] happens in your mind is just essentially
[32:49] you dream just being in a constant state
[32:53] of flowing thoughts all the time 24
[32:57] hours thoughts are flowing this is not
[33:03] this does not signify intelligence this
[33:07] suggests diarrhea mental diarrhea
[33:10] constantly it is on and on and on now if
[33:16] one has made an effort one has strived
[33:19] to look beyond the firmament of the mind
[33:23] one would know other dimensions simply
[33:27] denying that nothing like that exists
[33:29] because I do not know it is I don't know
[33:32] he doesn't need comments security but
[33:35] you just said that the five senses are
[33:37] unreliable but just to come back to that
[33:39] license is being unreliable let me come
[33:41] to this right now what your vision
[33:45] visual sense understands his light many
[33:49] of the creatures on the planet
[33:50] understand it as darkness isn't it so
[33:52] you sit with an owl and start an
[33:54] argument as to which is light and which
[33:56] is darkness you will end up with an
[33:58] endless argument so who is right you
[34:01] insist you're right but that is the
[34:03] whole problem people insisting that
[34:05] their right is the whole problem on the
[34:06] planet what's a guru if if the whole
[34:09] point of
[34:10] your technology is to make people actual
[34:13] eyes themselves why in the modern world
[34:16] is there still cult creation why does
[34:19] your photograph adorn every devotees who
[34:22] or every practitioners home why do they
[34:24] not just take the technology and become
[34:26] independent spirits themselves see you
[34:30] don't mind if you don't mind if a rock
[34:36] stars picture is in somebody's house
[34:38] okay but people he lives a bad life
[34:43] he is drugged out but you don't mind if
[34:47] a film stars picture is there it doesn't
[34:50] matter if the 12 girls from the
[34:53] Kingfisher calender don't your house you
[34:55] do not matter but you have something
[34:58] with me what is the problem
[34:59] I'll tell you what the rock
[35:08] yeah I'll tell you I'll job itself I'll
[35:12] come to you but I'll tell you what my
[35:13] problem with that is is that by and
[35:15] large what Javed Sahab was saying
[35:17] earlier is that with the following of a
[35:20] guru even if the Guru doesn't want it
[35:21] there is a giving up of oneself there's
[35:24] a subjugation of one's own thinking to a
[35:27] you know to a guru and that takes people
[35:30] sometimes to very dark places you know
[35:32] you're willing to kill for a guru you
[35:33] may not be willing to kill for the film
[35:34] star but they do they don't didn't you
[35:40] come in Tamil not one see people will
[35:41] kill for the film star you know if a
[35:54] film star is having a wonderful time
[35:58] you don't resent if a rock star is
[36:00] having a wonderful time I mean he's
[36:03] doing what in his vocation in his
[36:05] profession
[36:06] you don't reason if a guru is going put
[36:08] in his profession is having a good time
[36:10] why should you return it some not
[36:12] definitely what's your problem
[36:14] sure now this is this is the operation
[36:18] of rationalism the equation should hold
[36:20] good they then have good time job
[36:25] [Applause]
[36:31] Sakuragi one quick question I think my
[36:33] colleague is going to ring the bell any
[36:35] minute you know I saw a film recently in
[36:38] America made by a young man and it's
[36:41] called the truce - the true story of a
[36:43] fake guru he dressed himself up as a
[36:46] guru and he went and he met a whole lot
[36:48] of people he listened to their sorrows
[36:50] he listened to their stories he put
[36:53] three pictures in front of them he
[36:55] brought them into this sense of ecstasy
[36:57] inhalation and they began to transform
[37:00] themselves they completely believed in
[37:01] him and they began to follow him they
[37:04] felt that they arrived at a safe harbor
[37:06] at the end of the film and they're being
[37:09] filmed through this whole journey at the
[37:11] end of it
[37:12] no no feels himself you know about it he
[37:14] reveals himself he's just a young man
[37:16] from Canada from Phoenix what is the
[37:19] answer to that see this is why I want
[37:23] you to make a distinction between faith
[37:25] and a spiritual process faith is just a
[37:30] set of beliefs spiritual process begins
[37:34] only when you realize that you do not
[37:37] know the fundamentals of your existence
[37:39] and seeking begins when a seeking begins
[37:43] and you find your sense organs and your
[37:45] logic only takes you to a certain point
[37:47] and it's not willing to help you beyond
[37:49] that then when you come to your dead end
[37:52] you know there is something beyond but
[37:54] you're at a dead end then you will want
[37:56] a normal process so then somebody who
[37:59] has experienced it will offer a process
[38:01] this is all it is now in society it
[38:04] might have fire found all kinds of
[38:06] distortions you picking up a bad apple
[38:09] and talking about apples Satguru
[38:13] consumption in this universe in this
[38:15] earth is really becoming something
[38:17] unsustainable what kind of spirituality
[38:20] is it that does not talk about the
[38:22] finite end of consumption you know even
[38:24] as a even as a method even as a process
[38:27] that is not part of Asia foundation at
[38:29] all see we are always trying to curtail
[38:33] human aspirations it'll never work if I
[38:36] tell somebody don't smoke don't do this
[38:38] don't do that they will not do
[38:40] they'll anyway continue to do it or
[38:41] other kinds of Campbell's compulsions
[38:43] will take them over but if you teach
[38:46] them a method through which they're able
[38:48] to manage the chemistry of who they are
[38:51] today there is substantial medical and
[38:53] scientific evidence it is no more belief
[38:56] system there is substantial scientific
[38:58] and medical evidence today research has
[39:01] gone into this University of California
[39:03] has done an enormous research and the
[39:04] simple Shambo Muhammad are the basic
[39:07] practice that we teach three months of
[39:09] practice you're the neuronal
[39:11] regeneration rejuvenation in your brain
[39:13] is two hundred and forty-one percent
[39:15] more than the average okay there any
[39:18] number of things like this now the
[39:20] chemical soup that you are you can
[39:23] either make it very blissful or
[39:25] miserable so if you are blissful by your
[39:28] own nature then all the compulsiveness
[39:31] will naturally drop whether you're going
[39:34] shopping or you're digging up the planet
[39:36] or you seeking something else
[39:38] essentially it is just this a human
[39:40] being is what longing to be a human
[39:43] being is longing to be something more
[39:45] than what he is right now
[39:47] but if that more happens he wants more
[39:49] if you really look at it a human being
[39:51] cannot settle unless he has all of it if
[39:54] you want all of it approaching it
[39:57] through physical means is a hopeless
[39:58] means the design is fine but the method
[40:01] is hopeless so spiritual process means
[40:03] you have offered him the right method
[40:05] right process for the same design job
[40:09] it's a view on jealousy I really find it
[40:12] highly amusing it's very interesting
[40:14] that it is in religion it is in
[40:17] spirituality the moment they find
[40:20] something in science which is compatible
[40:22] they start respecting science they said
[40:26] look now even the science has accepted
[40:28] it but the moment science is opposing
[40:31] them then it is not credible at all and
[40:34] it is the history there was a question
[40:38] which I missed that time we have to
[40:40] understand through spiritualism that why
[40:43] we are in this universe what are we
[40:45] doing here why have we come here I don't
[40:48] want to
[40:50] commend about anybody else's presence
[40:52] but guru ji I know why I'm in this
[40:55] universe and the reason is unprintable
[40:57] and the reason is unprintable offensive
[41:00] it is a pompous question that why I am
[41:06] in this universe it is a pompous
[41:10] question what I am doing here have you
[41:13] ever thought of a mosquito
[41:14] why did mosquito is here in this world
[41:17] why this porch is here tell it as far as
[41:24] life quality is concerned there is no
[41:27] difference between a Roden and a human
[41:29] being between a mosquito and a human
[41:32] being the only difference is the mind
[41:35] and this is the difference they want to
[41:37] eradicate
[41:38] [Applause]
[41:49] obviously this has no relevance to
[41:53] whatever I'm speaking it looks like it's
[41:56] not even being heard so the thing is the
[42:03] significant aspect of that the
[42:05] significant aspect of human life is that
[42:10] human life is replete with possibilities
[42:13] which other creatures are not capable of
[42:15] every other creature on this planet is
[42:19] fulfilled when its survival process is
[42:22] fulfilled there is something about a
[42:24] human being that it does not settle with
[42:26] survival what is called as human begins
[42:29] only after survival is taken care off
[42:31] so the longing to be an endless
[42:35] expansion cannot be settled by the
[42:38] simplicity of thought thought is just a
[42:42] product of the data that we have
[42:43] gathered and whatever you may know it is
[42:47] still too limited that much is
[42:49] established by science so about science
[42:52] and spiritual process ever being head-on
[42:56] with each other such a thing has never
[42:57] happened it is just that you have not
[42:59] been exposed to the right things as I
[43:01] said earlier you eat a bad apple and you
[43:04] make conclusions about all apples it's
[43:06] an unfortunate reality of one's life I'm
[43:10] going to have to end it at that my
[43:13] takeaway from this are two things one
[43:16] that in India we've had a glorious
[43:17] tradition of the argumentation between
[43:20] men of faith and men of reason there
[43:23] were the navaratna in King Akbar Scott
[43:26] and the big takeaway that I think both
[43:30] of them will agree with is that we can
[43:32] first learn to operate with common sense
[43:34] thank you so much for listening
[43:37] you
[43:39] [Music]