[00:00] Today, I am thrilled to welcome Stripe's
[00:02] head of design, Katie Dill, back to the
[00:04] show. Katie and her team recently
[00:06] launched a brand new Stripe homepage.
[00:09] She's going to take us behind the scenes
[00:11] of the new website and talk about how AI
[00:13] is changing her team's design process.
[00:16] Welcome to another episode of Design
[00:18] Review.
[00:26] >> Katie, thank you so much for joining us
[00:27] again.
[00:28] >> Well, thank you for having me. It's nice
[00:29] to be back.
[00:30] >> I saw along with everybody else when you
[00:32] launched the new Stripe homepage and I
[00:34] thought it would be amazing to have you
[00:35] on and kind of take us through the old
[00:37] site and uh things that you wanted to
[00:40] change about it and update cuz I know
[00:42] it's been a few years since you launched
[00:44] that one and then take us through the
[00:46] new one and talk a little bit about the
[00:47] process that you used in order to get to
[00:50] uh where you guys landed with the new
[00:51] one.
[00:51] >> I do enjoy a good design crit with you.
[00:53] So, let's do it.
[00:54] >> All right, let's jump into uh the
[00:55] original site. So, how long ago did you
[00:57] launch this one? This one was from 2020.
[01:00] >> Okay. So, we're talking six years ago at
[01:02] this point.
[01:02] >> Yeah. Kudos to the team. I wasn't there
[01:03] at the time, but I do think that they
[01:05] built something that stood the test of
[01:07] time quite well.
[01:08] >> Uh we weren't, you know, oh my gosh, we
[01:11] have to change it. It's been too long.
[01:12] It's just, you know, it doesn't work
[01:14] anymore. It actually was standing up
[01:16] quite well. And when we endeavored to
[01:18] change it, it was because the business
[01:20] had just evolved beyond the point of
[01:22] what this story was was being told on
[01:25] this site. And I'll explain that in a
[01:26] little bit. Of course, we wanted to kind
[01:28] of freshen it up as a part of our brand
[01:30] that also had been evolving and becoming
[01:33] more sophisticated and reaching, you
[01:35] know, a broader set of users. Uh, but
[01:37] still it was it was a good site. So, I
[01:39] can point out a couple of things that we
[01:41] uh aimed to change.
[01:42] >> Yeah.
[01:42] >> Uh, so one, you know, this evolved over
[01:46] time. We certainly had changed the words
[01:48] on the site and exactly how it was
[01:50] portraying what we do. Um, and then also
[01:53] some of the the product shots that we
[01:55] were including. Um and then of course
[01:57] our users as we you know continue to
[01:59] evolve and um help more in different
[02:02] categories or larger enterprises or uh
[02:05] growing startups. But then as you go
[02:07] down the page we were articulating the
[02:09] number of things that we do and this is
[02:11] actually one of the things that had
[02:12] evolved the most over the last couple of
[02:14] years because our product suite was
[02:15] evolving. And so for example we started
[02:18] with payments being a main part of our
[02:21] business but over time uh payments is
[02:23] just one part of it. We now today serve
[02:27] you in multi- uh national enterprises in
[02:31] many categories including helping them
[02:33] with subscriptions, helping AI companies
[02:35] with usage based billing, tax revenue
[02:38] recognition platforms like Shopify and
[02:41] helping them move money for the
[02:43] businesses in their um on their
[02:45] platform. And so these stories were
[02:48] coming through here, but you were kind
[02:50] of only getting a glimpse of the product
[02:53] offering that Stripe provided. And so
[02:55] this was probably the biggest thing that
[02:57] we realized that we needed to change. So
[02:59] we needed to adjust that. And the other
[03:01] piece is that, you know, the page grows
[03:04] quite long. There's a lot of trying to
[03:06] be told here. uh we were doing that
[03:09] thing that happens over time where you
[03:10] kind of add on and add on and we're kind
[03:13] of losing the the narrative uh with the
[03:16] site and so we thought to think about
[03:19] ways that we could uh update that
[03:21] narrative. Now of course you could
[03:23] adjust that what was here but we
[03:25] realized that it was also time to
[03:26] refresh the visuals. uh it I don't think
[03:29] that the you know the visuals came out
[03:31] of fashion but it also just didn't feel
[03:34] like it took the sophistication of how
[03:36] the business itself evolved. Uh and we
[03:39] were seeing it honestly in the way that
[03:41] our teams were kind of rolling out this
[03:43] design language. There wasn't a lot of
[03:44] clarity on how do we use this 12 degree
[03:47] bar, how do we use colors and overlays?
[03:50] Um how do we use our typography? Um the
[03:52] gradient wave that's at the top was
[03:54] certainly an element but it didn't
[03:56] really scale well. So, we had to create
[03:59] a new design vision for our language and
[04:02] then update the story.
[04:03] >> It's interesting because you mentioned
[04:05] that visually I look at this and this
[04:07] looks like a site that could have been
[04:08] launched yesterday. Um, and I think
[04:10] that's a testament to how Stripe has
[04:12] always been so far ahead of the game
[04:14] >> from a design perspective that you could
[04:15] have a site that's 6 years old and
[04:17] obviously you you made updates to it
[04:20] over the years. This wasn't literally
[04:21] the site that you launched six years
[04:22] ago, right? But um clearly it has stood
[04:25] the test of time which is really
[04:26] impressive and it makes sense that
[04:28] you've got all these different customers
[04:29] now. It seems like the approach that you
[04:31] took with the old one was just keep
[04:33] adding sections that would target
[04:35] different types of users and hopefully
[04:37] people would scroll until they hit the
[04:38] one that's right for them. And it sounds
[04:40] like maybe you've rethought that for the
[04:41] new site that you launched.
[04:43] >> Yeah, I mean like perfect example, you
[04:44] know, AI is very big part of our
[04:46] business. It's both like how we build
[04:48] what we build and who we build for. like
[04:51] over 78% of the Forbes AI 50 use Stripe
[04:56] and they are using our products to help
[04:59] them scale really fast and help them
[05:01] monetize in new ways right so usage
[05:03] based billing so that you can uh make
[05:06] the right moves for your inferences
[05:07] costs and how your users are actually
[05:10] using your product and it's a tile on
[05:12] the website
[05:13] >> so the story was missing like what we're
[05:15] actually building wasn't coming clear
[05:17] and so when we realized okay now it's
[05:19] time to update our site I would say
[05:20] there's a couple of things on that front
[05:22] which is one like first principles what
[05:24] are we trying to do here like what is
[05:25] the point of a website anyways I
[05:27] remember being in a meeting where
[05:28] Patrick asked like well what is the
[05:30] point of a website I think one part of
[05:32] it is it's
[05:33] >> it's your manifesto whether you
[05:34] explicitly call it that or not
[05:37] >> because you're demonstrating who you are
[05:39] what you are doing and why you do it and
[05:42] in some indirect ways right it's just
[05:44] like the nature of the way that you
[05:46] build your site how you present yourself
[05:47] what colors you choose what typography
[05:49] you choose the details that you choose
[05:51] to care and the ones you don't and then
[05:53] of course how you articulate what you're
[05:55] doing and what you offer. So we set out
[05:57] to make sure that the story was
[05:58] extremely clear for who we're serving
[06:00] and how we're serving them and what we
[06:03] care about. And so that's where, you
[06:05] know, honestly painstaking hours over a
[06:08] year or more is what, you know, ended up
[06:10] going into this. Partly because in some
[06:13] ways we weren't rushing to get something
[06:15] out like when we're ser when we're
[06:16] building something for our users, it's
[06:18] like, okay, it needs to be out like it
[06:19] needs to be out tomorrow because they're
[06:20] dependent on this. This was like it was
[06:22] for ourselves in a lot of ways. And so
[06:24] we certainly could take the time to
[06:27] sniff out the right design and, you
[06:29] know, get on that scent. Um, and you
[06:31] know what? There were many weeks and
[06:33] months of design exploration where we
[06:36] liked it, but we're like, "No, that's
[06:37] not it." Yeah, we're not ready to, you
[06:39] know, wear that shirt for the next six
[06:40] years or whatever it might be.
[06:42] >> And so, it's financial infrastructure to
[06:44] grow your revenue as the first one,
[06:46] >> which is the exact same for a sentence.
[06:48] So, that has remained consistent and it
[06:49] seems like what you wanted to add here
[06:51] was the extra things here that would
[06:53] catch other people.
[06:54] >> Yeah.
[06:55] >> That where Strike would actually be the
[06:56] right product for them, too.
[06:57] >> Yeah. One of the things that's
[06:58] interesting is I like looking at sites
[07:00] and trying to figure out what is
[07:02] something that only this company could
[07:04] do that nobody else could do. And one of
[07:06] the things that stands out to me is the
[07:07] GDP counter that you have here. It's not
[07:10] many companies that could um that could
[07:12] have a live counter of the percentage of
[07:16] the global GDP, not even just US GDP
[07:19] that is running on Stripe. Talk about
[07:21] the decision to put that right up at the
[07:23] top as well. Well, I would imagine a lot
[07:25] of, you know, people watching and people
[07:27] building websites are thinking about,
[07:28] well, how can we demonstrate the the
[07:31] impact that we're having, the the reason
[07:33] why you should trust us, the social
[07:35] proof, you know, what users trust us
[07:37] before. Uh, these are important
[07:39] messages. They they help the, you know,
[07:41] the the potential customer understand
[07:43] like whether or not this is a brand that
[07:45] you could trust and okay, good to know
[07:46] that you've done it for others. As I
[07:48] expressed earlier, like we're, you know,
[07:50] trying to help everybody from a micro
[07:51] entrepreneur who's going to grow a
[07:53] startup to hopefully great success as
[07:55] well as these large enterprises. It
[07:57] matters a lot to them whether or not
[07:59] that Stripe is dependable, reliable,
[08:01] trustworthy, and can operate at their
[08:03] scale.
[08:04] >> So, we ask ourselves, well, how do we
[08:05] express that? How do we help you see
[08:07] that we can? Of course, one of the ways
[08:08] is that we tell you about the users that
[08:10] use us, and you can see that scrolling
[08:12] across the bottom. But another way is
[08:14] like you know the actual enormous impact
[08:16] that we have had the the privilege and
[08:18] the responsibility of serving in that
[08:20] can actually be quantified in the GDP.
[08:22] >> Yeah. I love that. And the other key
[08:24] word here too is billionth. You know
[08:26] like that just signals if you do
[08:28] billions of transactions stripe is right
[08:30] for you.
[08:31] >> Yeah. YC companies.
[08:32] >> Yeah.
[08:33] >> You got this.
[08:34] >> Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. Okay. Take us
[08:36] through uh the other sections that you
[08:38] you put underneath that.
[08:39] >> Yeah. All right. So this next section is
[08:41] what we call our bento. And so this is
[08:44] probably the big area that's seeking to
[08:46] solve some of the problems I talked
[08:47] about earlier about really expressing
[08:50] kind of like the scale of the product
[08:51] offering. And so before you saw like
[08:54] okay we do issuing we do payments. Uh
[08:57] but here we're trying to depict a little
[08:58] bit more of the solution set. And so
[09:00] payments yes we do payments we do online
[09:03] payments we also do terminal. Uh billing
[09:05] is you know what we were talking about
[09:07] earlier about usage based billing or um
[09:09] you know could be fixed fee
[09:10] subscriptions any number of these types
[09:12] of things are a lot more adjustable and
[09:15] um customizable to the businesses we're
[09:17] serving. uh we talked a little bit about
[09:19] the the role that AI plays in the
[09:22] organizations and so we wanted to make
[09:24] that clear our issuing product stable
[09:27] coins and then of course the way that we
[09:30] uh provide for platform businesses and
[09:32] marketplaces and so what we're trying to
[09:34] do here is not overwhelm you with too
[09:37] much going on I mean that I know there
[09:39] is a lot on this page but you know you
[09:41] can see that
[09:42] >> there's a very little text we're just
[09:44] trying to get the point across to give
[09:46] you enough of a sense of like, okay,
[09:48] this may be for me. And then what we're
[09:50] really trying to do is show rather than
[09:53] tell. So, hence the imagery. And then
[09:55] the quick way that you can gain more
[09:57] insight is we do this kind of overlay,
[10:00] this larger modal, so you don't actually
[10:02] have to go off your course. You're not
[10:04] we're not taking you away from the
[10:05] homepage yet, but we can give you a
[10:07] little bit more of a sense of what this
[10:08] is all about. There's many products
[10:11] layered into this, right? Like, you
[10:12] know, we on that bento, it's 1, two,
[10:14] three, four, five, six. But that's, you
[10:17] know, I think we have many, many more
[10:20] dozen products on top of that that we
[10:23] can't express all on one page. That
[10:25] would just be too much and would
[10:26] overwhelm you. So, we want to give you
[10:28] essentially progressive disclosure as a
[10:30] way of of getting towards the more
[10:31] details behind the products and more
[10:33] things that we offer.
[10:34] >> Yeah, that's very cool. I don't know
[10:35] that I've seen this specific design with
[10:37] the bento box and the modals that you
[10:38] can pop up that give more information
[10:40] directly on the page. It's an
[10:42] interesting smart choice because rather
[10:44] than take people to a dedicated page,
[10:46] you keep them right here. Show them what
[10:47] they want. You give buttons to to jump
[10:50] to the next section or you can keep
[10:51] scrolling down if this is not the right
[10:53] thing that you're looking for.
[10:54] >> Yeah. That that you want it to feel
[10:56] light. You want it to feel easy to kind
[10:59] of explore and engage and you're taking
[11:01] them on a journey for sure. You want to
[11:03] help them get to where they're going. Uh
[11:05] but yeah, I think if we leapt people off
[11:07] the page, you know, when it might be too
[11:10] early for them to have made their
[11:11] decision on what they're actually going
[11:13] after. Uh so this is really just a bit
[11:15] more of a browse experience and it's a
[11:17] gives them a bit more of a a chance to
[11:19] explore.
[11:19] >> YC Starter School is back. We're hand
[11:22] selecting the most promising builders in
[11:24] the world and flying them out to San
[11:26] Francisco for July 25th and 26th to
[11:29] discuss the cutting edge of tech. Apply
[11:31] now for a spot. Okay, back to the video.
[11:34] Yeah, it's interesting. Another thing
[11:35] that stands out to me is how much
[11:36] animation you use um in each of these
[11:38] cards. Talk a little about about that
[11:40] and and how you can do it without making
[11:42] it too overwhelming or distracting for
[11:44] people.
[11:45] >> Yeah, it's a difficult balance to get. I
[11:47] mean, this is where prototyping and
[11:49] experimentation like I remember this one
[11:51] where it's like we had too many lines at
[11:53] first and then we had too few lines at
[11:54] first and the the ball was moving too
[11:56] fast. Uh so you do have to really
[11:58] fine-tune, bring it in. You know, one of
[12:00] the things as kind of pointed out
[12:01] earlier and when when you're building a
[12:03] website like this, you are either, you
[12:05] know, both directly and indirectly
[12:07] expressing your company's manifesto. So,
[12:09] one of the things that we are trying to
[12:11] express is the care that we put into the
[12:14] work that we do because if you see the
[12:15] care that goes here, then you you're
[12:17] right to assume that we also put that
[12:19] care behind the scenes in the way that
[12:20] we move money and the way that we
[12:22] protect uh a company's information.
[12:24] These are important details to express.
[12:27] It's also, you know, the idea of making
[12:30] the site feel a bit more alive.
[12:32] >> You know, that there's a presence here
[12:34] is something that I think the motion
[12:35] does really well. You were right though.
[12:37] If you go too far with it, it becomes
[12:39] distracting. It becomes annoying. Nobody
[12:41] really wants to engage with that. And
[12:42] so, it's just delicate movements and
[12:45] really just like trying to fine-tune it.
[12:47] Um, and also thinking about the role
[12:48] that when somebody engages with it,
[12:50] that's where, you know, you bring
[12:52] certain things to life and make sure
[12:53] that you're like responding and this
[12:55] gives the feedback to also register
[12:57] like, okay, I can click on this. You
[12:58] might not have known that otherwise. So,
[13:00] we try to engage in that way. This is
[13:02] where we're we're basically these are
[13:04] kind of like the the big important
[13:05] metrics that can help you understand
[13:07] again kind of the scale of what we
[13:09] build. Um, and you know, of course,
[13:11] there were versions where we could just
[13:13] put the numbers there. Uh but what we
[13:15] intended to do with this is to just add
[13:18] a little bit of interest. It is loosely
[13:21] communicating the intention of these uh
[13:24] metrics. It's not really a data viz of
[13:26] course. Uh but it gives you a sense of
[13:28] like okay here we're talking about
[13:30] global scale. Here we're talking about
[13:32] um uptime and so you kind of get the
[13:34] sense of continuity here. Um but really
[13:37] it's just fun. It's just beautiful. Um,
[13:39] and then there's, you know, it changes
[13:41] depending on what time of day, but if
[13:42] you want to go ahead and see what it
[13:44] would be like at night, you can come in
[13:45] and check it out yourself.
[13:46] >> It feels like we're entering an era now
[13:48] where websites can be fun again.
[13:50] >> Yeah,
[13:50] >> they were fun early on and then it got
[13:53] to a point where every SAS website
[13:55] looked exactly the same. And um, it's
[13:57] really cool to see you focused on things
[13:58] that are just fun for the sake of being
[14:00] fun.
[14:00] >> Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm a AI hopeful that
[14:03] the creation of these tools that can
[14:05] help us move so much faster and
[14:07] basically get to like get to good almost
[14:10] like instantaneously and almost for
[14:12] free. And now great, we can take that
[14:15] time to then push it that next level and
[14:17] to create something that is really
[14:19] interesting and playful and, you know,
[14:22] beautiful.
[14:22] >> Yeah. I think what's interesting here
[14:24] that's that's maybe worth for anybody
[14:25] watching to pay attention to is that
[14:27] these aren't animations for animation's
[14:29] sake or interactivity for interactivity
[14:31] sake. There's there's an intention and a
[14:33] purpose behind everything that you're
[14:34] doing and it's connecting to the
[14:36] specific message that you're trying to
[14:38] communicate with each of these numbers
[14:39] and it's easy to look at it and go like
[14:41] oh yeah it's just like a fun kind of
[14:42] thing and it is that but it's not
[14:44] random.
[14:44] >> Yeah. And a lot of thought goes into
[14:47] that I'm sure like talk about some of
[14:48] the different things that you explored
[14:50] or were people even against putting this
[14:52] in thinking well what value does it have
[14:54] and every inch of the screen has to have
[14:57] um you know directly measurable value.
[14:59] >> Yeah. Well also interesting is it's this
[15:02] section that the site didn't launch in
[15:06] December. M
[15:07] >> so we we ended up launching in January
[15:10] and uh we were at a stage with this
[15:14] where like we had something good like we
[15:17] had you know all four animations but
[15:20] they didn't move quite the way you know
[15:22] we thought would feel really smooth and
[15:25] really intentional and the extra detail
[15:29] of how they transition from one to the
[15:31] next just like felt a little cluji and
[15:34] wasn't quite as smooth as it could
[15:36] And it was a decision, you know, a group
[15:40] decision that we should wait and we
[15:42] should do it right. We could have, well,
[15:46] let's just only do three or let's just
[15:47] only do one or maybe you don't make the
[15:49] move. Um, and you know, for sure what we
[15:52] don't want to get in the habit of is
[15:54] just like pushing timelines out to the
[15:55] end of time. But this was a decision
[15:57] that it was worth it to get it done well
[16:02] and make it actually a kind of joyful
[16:04] experience that demonstrates you know
[16:07] that love and care and the technical
[16:08] ability and you know it was over the
[16:11] holidays and so pushing it another week
[16:13] was was not going to be you know the end
[16:15] of the world but also a really good
[16:16] thing in the long run about how it feels
[16:18] within the overall composition.
[16:20] >> Yeah. Very cool. So this area is um a
[16:23] place where we're we're talking about
[16:25] our users but we created these images so
[16:28] it brings together Stripe the brand and
[16:31] the the companies that we serve. So each
[16:34] one of these is custommade uh and it's
[16:37] you know intended to express a bit of
[16:39] the brand that we're highlighting as
[16:41] well as the Stripe brand with the
[16:43] parallelogram. You could look at this
[16:44] and you could be like oh yeah great
[16:46] opportunity to use AI as did we. We're
[16:48] like great, we're gonna use AI and it's
[16:50] going to be awesome and we're gonna get
[16:51] these done in a, you know, a day. Now,
[16:53] of course, like the reality is, you
[16:55] know, building with AI is actually also,
[16:58] you know, something that is u it
[17:00] requires the love and care and attention
[17:02] of the makers. And so, there was
[17:03] definitely a process behind it. But
[17:05] these are really just meant to bring
[17:07] some interest. And you kind of again, as
[17:09] you're trying to express through
[17:11] visuals, a lot of people scroll really
[17:14] fast through the website, right? At
[17:15] least I do. I don't know about you. But
[17:17] when you're you're trying to get them to
[17:19] like take a beat almost like a song, you
[17:20] know, it's like what are those like key
[17:22] moments of punctuation and where do we
[17:25] want you know folks to slow down and
[17:26] take a note and also when are we trying
[17:28] to express something like you know
[17:30] trying to communicate uh the type of
[17:32] brand that we work with especially if
[17:34] you're you know not familiar with them.
[17:36] >> And now we've moved to a darker
[17:37] background.
[17:38] >> Is there something intentional behind
[17:40] that now? Well, this is an area that
[17:42] we're talking about our um integrations
[17:45] in the way that our APIs work. Uh and
[17:48] certainly there's, you know, a developer
[17:51] language. Uh not everything has to be in
[17:53] dark mode, but um it is actually
[17:55] something we have done in the previous
[17:57] site as well. And so we wanted to carry
[17:58] that forward.
[17:59] >> This is uh the area that we call squeezy
[18:01] boy.
[18:03] Uh design is definitely more fun when
[18:06] you can give everything a fun name. Uh
[18:07] but it is a an area where we're we're
[18:09] kind of just showing some of the things
[18:11] that are comingings and goings and uh so
[18:13] this is our Black Friday Cyber Monday uh
[18:16] city that we had built um our
[18:20] podcast Cheeky Pint. Uh so this will
[18:22] always be changing with different things
[18:23] that come through. Uh but we wanted to
[18:25] once again you know have a little fun
[18:27] with how we portray these things make it
[18:29] easier and um also inviting to engage
[18:32] with. Um certainly added more challenge
[18:34] to it. Like so for example how do you
[18:36] get an image that when it's this size is
[18:39] going to make sense as much as it's
[18:41] going to make sense when it's this size.
[18:43] Uh so this was tricky to to build it
[18:45] right. And so you know quite a bit of
[18:47] iteration on that but I think the team
[18:49] found a clever way. It's amazing seeing
[18:50] the finished product here and everything
[18:52] is so polished and and put together, but
[18:55] I think it's really easy to miss all the
[18:57] work and the iteration and the process
[18:58] that goes on behind the scenes there. I
[19:01] would love for you to take us through
[19:02] show your work on all these different
[19:04] sections and all the iterations that you
[19:05] went through to ultimately end up at
[19:07] this point.
[19:07] >> Well, okay, we're starting here on the
[19:09] top where we have this wave. Uh I've
[19:11] worked at Stripe now for five years and
[19:14] I cannot even tell you how many
[19:16] different variants of a wave or gradient
[19:19] or gradient wave that I have seen and
[19:21] been a part of. Um I think we are trying
[19:23] to find every possible solution on this
[19:26] project. You know we knew we wanted to
[19:30] bring a lot of kind of color and joy to
[19:33] the experience and we knew that a a wave
[19:36] or gradient wave like we had before is a
[19:39] a key way to do that. and we enjoy that
[19:41] part of the brand, but which wave, how
[19:44] to do it, what's going to stand the test
[19:45] of time, what could be on there for six
[19:47] years potentially, uh, and, you know,
[19:49] give you a, you know, a bit of joy when
[19:52] you visit, but not overdo it. And what's
[19:55] super cool is that our wonderful team
[19:58] created this tool where we can
[20:01] experiment and get the right waves,
[20:03] >> the perfect wave.
[20:04] >> Exactly. So, you could just like tweak,
[20:07] do I want that much blur? No, not that
[20:09] much. Do I want a more grain? No, not
[20:11] that much. Let's see. We want to also
[20:13] switch it on the scale. Do how do we
[20:15] want it rotated? How thick do we want?
[20:18] How much texture do we want? You know,
[20:20] the reality is is all of those factors
[20:22] matter so much. Like what exactly is the
[20:24] color? Like that's a little like that
[20:26] yellow isn't right. Right. That's not
[20:27] the what we ended up with. Like we want
[20:28] to find just the right color mix, just
[20:30] the right texture, just the right amount
[20:32] of movement. And having a tool like this
[20:34] was essential to make that happen. And
[20:37] then you know we first get it right and
[20:39] like okay we see how it is here and then
[20:41] becomes the building process like how do
[20:43] we actually build it so it's also
[20:44] performant and is going to you know
[20:46] operate
[20:48] >> really smoothly on anybody's computer
[20:50] >> and and I noticed some buttons here it
[20:51] looks like you can save the state
[20:53] >> so do you create different variations of
[20:55] these and then kind of test them against
[20:56] each what was the process even of using
[20:58] this tool
[20:58] >> yeah before we even got in that tool we
[21:00] were even just trying to get centered on
[21:03] well what is it that we're actually
[21:04] trying to achieve with the wave what are
[21:06] talking about here like well how vibrant
[21:08] do we want to be or do we want like
[21:09] prefer it muted like some of these were
[21:11] really interesting but is that the right
[21:14] feel for the page or not? Um you know
[21:16] there this is one of our previous waves
[21:18] from one of our event sites uh which was
[21:21] monochromatic but also really bold or do
[21:24] we want to be a little bit more uh
[21:26] diverse and more rainbow like? And so we
[21:28] looked at each of these kinds of ways of
[21:31] thinking about it and then you know
[21:32] essentially had discussions about like
[21:34] well is it flat or is it an object with
[21:37] a form and these great discussions help
[21:40] us tease out uh what we're we're
[21:43] actually trying to do and of course you
[21:45] know Patrick is was heavily involved in
[21:47] the site as well and so we had many
[21:48] discussions with him is like this this
[21:50] wave feel right because when you're you
[21:52] know creating a new homepage it's almost
[21:54] like yeah you're deciding what you know
[21:55] clothes you're going to wear for the
[21:56] next many years. M it's a big decision.
[21:58] >> It's amazing seeing um the literally
[22:01] infinite variations that you could come
[22:03] up with here.
[22:04] >> I imagine that makes it harder to just
[22:06] make a final call. What is that process?
[22:08] Who who decides and and um you know how
[22:12] do you decide like this is the one that
[22:13] we're going with and and move on from
[22:16] this because you could probably spend
[22:17] forever debating.
[22:18] >> Oh, it's very very true. Uh usually well
[22:21] for something like this Patrick was
[22:23] definitely a part of the decision-making
[22:24] process and so usually you know with the
[22:27] team we will look at quite a large range
[22:30] then we will down select to you know a
[22:34] subset of those and say like okay these
[22:36] are the ones that we're comfortable with
[22:37] like we don't want to put in front of
[22:38] Patrick ones that we're like definitely
[22:40] not comfortable with or wouldn't
[22:41] recommend. Although it's it's always
[22:42] helpful to show kind of like the process
[22:44] and what we did explore. But then we
[22:46] look at the ones that are likely a very
[22:49] good fit and then we'll have a
[22:50] conversation about what you know feels
[22:52] right for him. And luckily, you know,
[22:54] he's also exceptionally decisive and has
[22:56] very good taste. And so we usually can
[22:59] use that as a conversation of like,
[23:00] okay, this one feels right. But I'll
[23:01] also admit, I mean, this is one of the
[23:03] blessings and the curse of the design
[23:04] process is that something that could
[23:06] feel great here on or on a board or in
[23:09] isolation, um, all of a sudden feels
[23:11] very different when you actually put it
[23:12] in place and you feel it. that you feel
[23:14] it with the rest of the typography and
[23:16] the the logos on there and the various
[23:18] other things and also just like sit with
[23:20] it for some time. Uh so we definitely
[23:22] evolved it over time. Something that may
[23:23] have felt right at one point um starts
[23:26] to feel, you know, just like it it it
[23:28] isn't going to stand the test of time
[23:29] and then we want to change it.
[23:30] >> Yeah. So, at what point in the process
[23:32] do you go from looking at a bunch of
[23:34] different variations on this like flat
[23:36] to an object with a form or quiet to
[23:38] turbulent and then actually get it coded
[23:41] up and working live in the page so that
[23:43] you can get a sense of what it actually
[23:44] feels like live.
[23:45] >> I mean, I would say the goal is as
[23:47] quickly as possible to get it into state
[23:49] that would be like the way a user would
[23:51] experience it.
[23:52] >> Uh because it is really hard to judge
[23:54] anything in isolation in a way that
[23:56] isn't like the user would be. you're you
[23:58] that's what you're trying to do is just
[24:00] like put yourself in their shoes and
[24:01] then see what that would feel like.
[24:02] Sometimes we're just we're not there
[24:04] yet. Like it could take some time to
[24:06] code it up. Uh and so we want to you
[24:08] know start to down select just so we
[24:10] know like should we code you know the
[24:12] these five versions or you know these
[24:14] five versions. And so we would start
[24:16] perhaps with something that's more of
[24:18] just like a static visual and just get a
[24:20] sense okay we want to go over here over
[24:21] there. But that's where that tool comes
[24:24] in hand because this allows us to
[24:26] essentially, you know, get many versions
[24:28] at once, right? And so we can play with
[24:30] them together.
[24:31] >> Yeah. And one of the other things that
[24:32] you might not get to experience um just
[24:34] playing with it in frames is it it comes
[24:36] behind the text there. And so you have
[24:38] to change the text color and make sure
[24:39] that the text is readable and and not
[24:41] distracting and and it interacts with
[24:42] all these other elements on the page
[24:44] that are really important, too.
[24:45] >> Right.
[24:45] >> You talked about a few different uh
[24:47] bento variations.
[24:48] >> Oh, yeah.
[24:49] >> I'm curious to see some more of those.
[24:50] >> Yeah. So, this is the bento where we're
[24:52] trying to communicate a lot of different
[24:53] things that we do.
[24:55] >> Uh, and what what's the right way to to
[24:58] communicate this? We looked at a ton of
[25:01] different things. And so, what we're
[25:02] trying to figure out is, you know, if
[25:04] you're what kind of user are you? Are
[25:07] you a uh micro entrepreneur with a small
[25:11] business or are you a large enterprise?
[25:13] Are you interested in billing or are you
[25:15] interested in connect these things? Do
[25:17] we want to show you them all in one
[25:19] screen? this might be an approach so we
[25:21] can get there faster because of course
[25:23] on any website the more you scroll down
[25:25] the less users get there, right? Uh so
[25:27] what if we just squished it all in?
[25:29] Well, that's a lot. It's pretty type
[25:30] heavy. We're not doing a whole lot of
[25:32] showing versus telling.
[25:34] >> Uh we looked at uh these kinds of
[25:36] sections. This is a little bit more
[25:38] similar to our original site that I
[25:40] showed you where you just kind of like
[25:42] pass through section by section. This
[25:44] felt like a little too scrolly telling,
[25:47] right? and you're just like kind of you
[25:48] want to get to it and you want to get to
[25:49] it faster and you want to be able to get
[25:51] a a quicker sense of what we offer. Uh
[25:53] then we have here a essentially an
[25:56] accordion so you could press these
[25:58] things to then open them up and see what
[25:59] we have. Uh this one we actually did
[26:01] take to user research and unsurprisingly
[26:05] it was not a quick way for people to
[26:10] really digest a lot at once because it
[26:12] requires effort. you know what even if
[26:14] it's not a lot of effort, right? But you
[26:16] um you want somebody to tap on it or you
[26:19] want them to scroll over it. Uh and you
[26:21] know, otherwise you're you're in trying
[26:22] to introduce something to them like
[26:24] manage a marketplace end to end. Like
[26:26] you might know what that means, but you
[26:28] might not.
[26:28] >> Would you would you be interested enough
[26:30] to click through and most people just
[26:31] don't click tabs?
[26:32] >> Yeah, exactly. So that's why, you know,
[26:34] again, this didn't feel right and a more
[26:36] visual one um was definitely a better
[26:39] choice. Uh but there's a lot of
[26:41] different variants here in the way that
[26:43] we explored how to communicate this. And
[26:45] then again, you know, it just we have to
[26:47] remember that when people are coming to
[26:49] this site, they're in a more of a lean
[26:51] back mode. They're in more of a browse
[26:53] mode. So the idea that you're going to
[26:55] put your most important messages a click
[26:57] away, it's going to be tough. And so
[27:00] that's where the bento kind of won at
[27:02] the end of the day because it was just
[27:03] so much more visual um and I would say
[27:06] kinder to the users because it meant
[27:08] that they could be in that lean back
[27:09] position.
[27:10] >> Talk a little bit about the process and
[27:12] maybe how you used AI in building this.
[27:15] >> Well, so yeah, let's start with the
[27:17] images that but there's other parts of
[27:18] the process there. But these were
[27:20] certainly a type of thing that lend
[27:23] themselves to AI. I think AI is really
[27:25] good at these pictures that seem, you
[27:27] know, super real. Uh, and so this is
[27:30] kind of what we're going for. Now, it
[27:32] seems like it would be pretty simple to
[27:35] ask a, you know, an AI like, you know,
[27:37] free pick or whatever of like, you know,
[27:39] give me a parallelogram inside this
[27:41] thing. But the reality is, you know, the
[27:44] nuance of the details really mattered to
[27:46] us. Like, you couldn't just put uh
[27:48] something that sort of got there. Uh, it
[27:51] had to feel like it was, you know, at
[27:53] the same level of love and care as these
[27:55] other things. What was really kind of
[27:57] funny was the process here. Uh because
[28:00] you know, one wouldn't have thought that
[28:01] bubbles would have taken so much of our
[28:03] attention, but they sure did. Uh so here
[28:05] was a version that we had for a
[28:07] different user that is uh not depicted
[28:09] on the site just right now. Um and you
[28:11] can kind of see like, okay, yeah, it's
[28:14] an ice cube and the bubbles and you
[28:15] know, generally what do you think? Looks
[28:16] looks okay.
[28:17] >> Yeah,
[28:18] >> looks real.
[28:18] >> Yeah, ship it.
[28:19] >> Well, this is the team's uh thoughts on
[28:22] the matter. And so each one of these
[28:25] things is actually a critique of, you
[28:27] know, where it just doesn't feel quite
[28:29] real, right?
[28:30] >> The example um from uh urban um or URBN
[28:35] is the um you know, how well does this
[28:38] all feel like the right urban uh layout
[28:41] now gets a lot of it right, but when you
[28:43] take a double look, um her arm isn't
[28:46] quite right. He doesn't quite have a
[28:48] hand. Um you know, that shadow isn't
[28:50] exactly how it would be. uh and so the
[28:53] the detail in each of these little
[28:56] nuances like each pixel basically needs
[28:58] the same uh amount of attention. So I
[29:01] think what AI is helping us do is it's
[29:03] helping us speed up our process and
[29:05] certainly helping us explore more. We
[29:08] can look at you know 20 ideas in the
[29:10] time it normally would have taken to
[29:12] look at two. However, the it doesn't
[29:15] replace craft. It doesn't replace taste.
[29:17] it doesn't replace, you know, the
[29:19] attention to detail to ensure that
[29:20] you're getting each of those things
[29:22] right. Um, we're really excited about
[29:24] how it's sped up prototyping and sped
[29:27] up, you know, experimentation. So, it's
[29:29] like, how should these accordionss move?
[29:30] Should it replace this or should it push
[29:32] that? Uh, we can mock that up really
[29:34] fast and then saves engineers countless
[29:36] time hours and and designers as well as
[29:39] they're exploring different varieties.
[29:41] It's also really great for user testing.
[29:43] Um, if we want to be able to change all
[29:45] the words in here, uh, so that it feels
[29:48] one way for one user that we're talking
[29:50] to versus another, we can do that really
[29:52] easily with AI prototyping. I would say
[29:54] even during that time period, you know,
[29:56] what we were exploring is, you know,
[29:58] feels oldfashioned a year ago versus uh,
[30:01] how we explore today.
[30:02] >> How about uh, like the role of
[30:04] designers? You know, it's it seems like
[30:06] it's not just um, pushing pixels in
[30:09] frames in Figma.
[30:10] >> Yeah. talk about what the designers on
[30:12] your team are doing and and the role
[30:14] that they played in uh in actually
[30:16] building this
[30:17] >> what designers at Stripe endeavor to do
[30:19] or to create things that feel like they
[30:21] push the status quo forward. That kind
[30:23] of all harks back right to the idea of
[30:25] like what what is the global progress
[30:27] that we can provide and we want to do
[30:28] that via design as well. We want to
[30:30] create things that are exceedingly easy
[30:32] to use that are also really really
[30:35] powerful and that can help people solve
[30:37] problems or help them build their
[30:38] business or help them accomplish what
[30:40] they're trying to do but do so in a way
[30:42] that actually just brings a little joy
[30:43] to the day too. You know, because
[30:45] frankly that's part of progress as well
[30:47] is that like a beautiful world is
[30:49] definitely a better world. I want to
[30:50] live in that one. And so designers are
[30:53] trying to create things that are going
[30:55] to be really intentional for our users
[30:57] but also do so that's you know in a
[30:59] creative and thoughtful and
[31:01] differentiated way and I would say the
[31:04] tools that we're using are allowing for
[31:07] that now hopefully better and faster you
[31:09] know as we talked about earlier is that
[31:11] you know I think AI can you know give us
[31:14] opportunity to keep the base like to
[31:16] raise the floor essentially to create
[31:18] baseline products maybe that like the
[31:20] seven out of 10 really quickly, really
[31:22] easily. But then what do you do with
[31:24] that extra found time? Do you just like
[31:26] ship that and just like, you know, ship
[31:28] more sevens out of tens? Like, boy, I
[31:30] hope not. Uh, what instead we want to do
[31:33] is, you know, get the things that are
[31:34] just like, okay, that's a very typical
[31:37] modal to, you know, accept somebody's
[31:39] email address to sign them up. Like
[31:41] maybe you don't need to reinvent the
[31:42] wheel there. Like as long as that is
[31:44] like a really good version of that, then
[31:45] we're good. But now, can we spend the
[31:48] time to think about new paradigms of
[31:49] interaction? Like for example, people
[31:51] are using agents to build their
[31:53] businesses now. Um they're using agents
[31:55] to basically do everything under the
[31:57] sun. So what is your agent experience?
[31:59] How good is that? What is the the
[32:01] users's experience going to be like when
[32:03] they are traversing, you know, the
[32:05] internet or their tools in that way? And
[32:07] so that's where I would say designers
[32:08] are putting more time now is thinking
[32:10] about those new paradigms of interaction
[32:12] and trying to think about like what does
[32:14] great experience or user experience or
[32:17] agent experience look like for tomorrow.
[32:19] We have incredible new tools that are
[32:20] available for everybody. And one of the
[32:22] trends obviously that that we've been
[32:24] seeing a lot of is everybody within a
[32:26] company now having the ability to ship
[32:29] code and improve products and update the
[32:33] website and you know the core product
[32:35] that customers are using which I think
[32:36] is really powerful and one of the
[32:39] questions that I think that that comes
[32:40] out of that
[32:42] >> um especially from a design perspective
[32:44] is how do you keep it so there's this
[32:46] cohesive design language and it stays to
[32:49] the bar that you is so important to you
[32:51] and
[32:52] without being directly in the flow of
[32:55] how new code gets written and shipped
[32:58] and going live on the site.
[32:59] >> Yeah, I really interested to see and be
[33:02] a part of the evolution of design
[33:04] systems in this way because design
[33:06] systems have always been a way to help a
[33:08] team scale. So as a organization grows
[33:12] and you can no longer just know what the
[33:14] right thing is because you know there's
[33:16] 10 of you seated around the table and
[33:17] you're all just talking about every
[33:19] single thing you do. when you scale like
[33:21] it helps the organization make decisions
[33:24] together and ensure that there's con
[33:26] coherency in the user's experience with
[33:29] AI tools I think that we're going to see
[33:32] a whole new wave where these systems are
[33:35] you know kind of managed by the AI tools
[33:38] and that can help us scale things a lot
[33:41] more quickly and so for example as I
[33:44] mentioned I you know drew a sketch of
[33:46] what I wanted to see built and then I
[33:49] put that in the AI tool and then it uses
[33:52] the components from our design system to
[33:54] piece that together for me and get a
[33:55] like the the rough version. Then I want
[33:58] to, you know, push it here and there and
[34:00] actually, you know what, that component
[34:01] isn't really fit to purpose for what I'm
[34:03] trying to do here. So this is where
[34:05] we're going to need to push from that
[34:06] and so then can the AI tool help me
[34:09] actually expand the design system and
[34:11] actually help to grow it for the use
[34:13] cases that we need. And so I think
[34:16] there's a lot that is going to be
[34:18] facilitated in terms of bringing more
[34:20] high quality things at that like
[34:23] baseline. But honestly, I mean, this is
[34:25] what people have to choose to do because
[34:27] sometimes it's so easy when you put it
[34:29] in the, you know, the AI tool and it
[34:31] spits back a thing and you're like, "Oh,
[34:33] that that was fast and that was easy and
[34:34] that's pretty good." And you will like
[34:36] you can feel it in yourself just being
[34:38] like, "Yeah, I guess that's enough." But
[34:40] like the reality is like don't be wooed
[34:43] by you know just how easy that was to
[34:46] achieve but instead ask yourself like
[34:48] but is this really is this really great?
[34:50] Is this like have I really hit the mark?
[34:52] Is this really going to achieve the
[34:53] goal? is really going to feel like it's
[34:56] wellcraftrafted and put, you know,
[34:57] intentionality behind it. And then, you
[34:59] know, sometimes that takes, you know,
[35:00] another rev and another turn. And, you
[35:02] know, the the way that, you know, our
[35:04] tools today can allow you to kind of go
[35:06] back and like, no, tweak this little bit
[35:08] and tweak that little bit. Uh, and
[35:10] essentially the merging of design and
[35:12] edge tools and one allows you a lot more
[35:14] ability to kind of customize that. So,
[35:16] you don't need to accept slop and you
[35:19] shouldn't accept slop. you should you
[35:21] know hunt for fight for the right
[35:23] solution.
[35:24] >> What are some more principles like that
[35:26] that you try to instill in your team? I
[35:28] mean, I think I think a part of it is,
[35:30] you know, the reality is, and I think we
[35:32] may have even talked about this last
[35:33] time we talked, like the gravitational
[35:35] pull is to mediocrity. Like, it is just
[35:38] so easy to accept good enough.
[35:43] >> And I think it really really takes
[35:45] intentionality and you really have to
[35:46] think about like what is the cost of
[35:49] accepting good enough. And I think in
[35:52] that one decision, you're just like,
[35:53] well, it's just fine. Like it's just
[35:55] like ship it like it, you know, it
[35:56] achieves it. like you know I really you
[35:58] know we we've got too much to do and you
[36:01] know is it like that data viz thing we
[36:02] were talking about before like it's it's
[36:04] pretty good you know we got like
[36:05] wouldn't it be great to like get the
[36:06] team on something else and you you like
[36:08] weigh all these other costs and you
[36:09] think about it and you end up making a
[36:11] decision to go for good enough
[36:13] >> but think about if you made that good
[36:15] enough decision every day all day every
[36:18] day and then think about how many
[36:21] companies do that right like how many
[36:22] companies really stand out to us as like
[36:25] exquisite and exceptional and that like
[36:27] really hold that bar up that it reminds
[36:29] you of just like how hard it is to fight
[36:32] that fight of like well I if I let this
[36:35] slide you know what else am I going to
[36:37] let slide and what is that like
[36:38] composite going to be and then I think a
[36:40] lot of people make decisions based on
[36:42] well you know the team put so much
[36:44] effort in like I'm going to you know
[36:46] upset the team if I don't go forward
[36:47] it's like well how happy is the team
[36:49] going to be if the product is just meh
[36:51] fight the gravitational pull to
[36:53] mediocrity and do not leave well enough
[36:55] alone Mhm.
[36:56] >> And really look for the thing that's
[36:57] going to make a difference. I think the
[36:59] other thing that we talk a lot about
[37:01] internally and I think is really
[37:03] important for folks to consider when
[37:05] they're building products and
[37:07] experiences is what is the user going to
[37:11] experience at the end of the day. You
[37:13] know, we get a little too caught up in
[37:14] our own world. We're too comfortable
[37:16] with it. And so what I would always say
[37:19] is just like realize it the way a user
[37:22] would. prototyping, not presenting.
[37:25] Don't try to communicate to, you know,
[37:27] the stakeholder of like, well, this is
[37:29] why we did this and this is, you know,
[37:31] the trade-off that we fought against and
[37:33] this and that. It's just like if you're
[37:34] there to talk about whether or not this
[37:36] is the right solution or not, then you
[37:38] should be asking of like, well, how is
[37:39] this going to feel at the end of the day
[37:40] for the person that's going to be
[37:42] experiencing this? And, you know, does
[37:44] that feel good? Without all of that
[37:46] knowledge, do I think that part is is
[37:49] the right one? um that makes a big big
[37:52] difference. Um I would also say when
[37:54] we're exploring different products and
[37:57] like what are you know what is actually
[37:59] shipworthy or not you think about like
[38:02] what the trade-offs are of like is this
[38:04] going to negatively impact somebody's
[38:06] day? Is this going to be something that
[38:09] erodess trust if you don't get this
[38:11] right? Is this going to make it to the
[38:13] front page of the news? Like what what
[38:15] are the tradeoffs when you're making a
[38:17] decision? And I guess like a lot of the
[38:19] things that I'm talking about here are
[38:21] the things that sound like I'm looking
[38:23] for perfection. And I think that's also
[38:26] a dangerous pursuit because of course
[38:28] like your product is only as good as
[38:31] what's actually out there, what's
[38:33] shipped. It's not what we've been
[38:34] thinking about. It's not what we've been
[38:35] talking about. It's not our intention
[38:36] and what we're pursuing. It's what's
[38:38] actually available to the people that
[38:40] are you're you're serving.
[38:41] >> And I think progress is probably more
[38:44] important than perfection in that case.
[38:47] And a lot of times it's not out there
[38:49] until you actually can learn and
[38:51] understand whether or not it's
[38:52] effective, especially with AI tools and
[38:55] the way that you know you you really
[38:57] don't know how people are going to use
[38:59] it and how it's going to respond and how
[39:01] they're going to evolve with it until
[39:03] you can bring it actually to market. And
[39:05] so I think you have to have a kind of a
[39:07] rubric in place about what are, you
[39:10] know, the essential pieces to a
[39:12] successful product. I wouldn't call it
[39:14] an MVP. It's probably like an MVQP, like
[39:17] a minimum viable quality product. Uh
[39:20] because again, you don't want to lose
[39:21] trust by experimenting with something
[39:23] out in the world. Uh but you certainly
[39:25] want to learn from their experiences.
[39:27] >> It feels like something that's becoming
[39:28] even more important these days um with
[39:30] all the advancements in AI is QA.
[39:32] >> Yeah.
[39:33] >> And testing. And you know, you talk
[39:35] about having the voice of the user and
[39:36] the perspective of the user in your head
[39:38] as you're designing. Um, and part of
[39:40] what you do at Stripe, which you told us
[39:42] about last time, is uh, walking the
[39:44] store.
[39:44] >> Oh, yeah.
[39:45] >> And, um, and you actually go in and you
[39:47] test all of the products yourselves and
[39:49] you do that as part of a company culture
[39:51] and a requirement that everybody does.
[39:53] Everyone is expected to do that. Um,
[39:55] which I think is really important. How
[39:57] has that changed more recently? Um,
[39:59] either within Stripe or certainly with
[40:01] all the changes with AI that have been
[40:03] happening. Walking the store is such an
[40:05] important part of building products and
[40:07] experiences because again it like at the
[40:10] end of the day you're trying to
[40:10] understand what the user is going
[40:12] through. And when you're building
[40:13] something, it's so easy to be like, "Oh
[40:15] yeah, we're in our product. We're in it
[40:16] all day. I'm thinking about my product
[40:18] all day." But what you're thinking about
[40:20] is, you know, that next feature that you
[40:22] launch and it's really easy to lose
[40:24] sight of what's actually out there. It's
[40:27] kind of funny like how you can create
[40:30] something. you're like, "Oh, when I
[40:31] shipped it, we did all these bug bashes
[40:33] and it was great." But then you use it
[40:35] and maybe you use it a month later,
[40:37] maybe you use it, you know, two, six
[40:39] months later, and it's evolved. It's
[40:41] changed. And the reason why is because
[40:43] probably somebody else shipped something
[40:44] and somebody else shipped something and
[40:46] now it's like, you know, it's in your
[40:48] home when you've updated the dining
[40:51] room, but none of the other rooms and
[40:52] all of a sudden the light switches don't
[40:53] match and the colors are off and every
[40:55] other room now looks bad. You have to
[40:57] think about how that composite works
[40:59] together. And you know for Stripe for
[41:01] example, we have a number of different
[41:03] business areas, right? We have our money
[41:06] movement business, we have our revenue
[41:07] business, we have our payments business.
[41:09] And these organizations need to focus
[41:12] and they need to stay true to their
[41:14] mission and what they're trying to get
[41:16] done. But if they don't think about how
[41:18] their product intersects with each
[41:21] others and how a user might go from,
[41:24] well, I use subscriptions and I use
[41:26] payments and I use tax. how are these
[41:28] things all going to work together? Then
[41:30] they're really missing the user
[41:32] experience. And so walking the store
[41:34] helps people see kind of the forest
[41:36] through the trees and see how all these
[41:38] things connect.
[41:39] >> And yes, we do basically it's like a
[41:42] part of the culture that everybody does
[41:44] this. Uh we do have a program that we
[41:47] talked about last time, essential
[41:48] journeys where we have a a subset of
[41:51] these journeys um kind of like on a
[41:53] scoreboard and like are they you know
[41:56] red, yellow, green, how good are they?
[41:58] But everybody should be exploring the
[42:00] store different parts imagining
[42:02] themselves as different types of users
[42:04] experiencing different sides of it and
[42:06] trying to find the the dead ends. We
[42:08] also do this every Friday where the
[42:11] founders do it in front of the whole
[42:13] company where they're walking the store.
[42:15] One to just instill how important this
[42:17] is and kind of raise awareness and also
[42:20] to help people think about how do you
[42:22] see not everybody has the same attention
[42:24] to different types of details. And so I
[42:27] might see something that you might not
[42:29] because of my discipline or my
[42:31] disposition or you know that the user
[42:33] that I talked to earlier that week and
[42:34] so the thing that I'm interested in. And
[42:36] so when we do these things together, we
[42:38] see the value that different points of
[42:40] view bring. So I really love to walk the
[42:42] store with like an engineer in the room
[42:44] and a product leader in a room and a
[42:45] data science in the room because we're
[42:47] all looking at it very differently and
[42:48] we're all going to point out different
[42:50] things and that is what like gets us
[42:52] closer to really actually understanding
[42:54] what a user might feel.
[42:55] >> Well Katie, this has been incredible.
[42:57] Thank you so much for coming and um I
[42:59] feel like it's so rare to get an honest
[43:01] peak behind the scenes and showing the
[43:03] process and all the steps that you had
[43:04] along the way. So, uh, really appreciate
[43:06] you sharing that with us.
[43:07] >> It was a lot of fun. I'm always happy to
[43:09] talk about behind the scenes. I think
[43:11] the blood, sweat, and tears and the
[43:13] effort that goes into it is something
[43:14] that's a part of the work, but is often
[43:16] not talked about. I love hearing it from
[43:18] other designers, and I'm always happy to
[43:19] talk about it myself. Thanks for having
[43:21] me on.
[43:21] >> Awesome. That does it for another design
[43:23] review. Thank you for joining us, and
[43:25] we'll see you on the next episode.