WEBVTT 00:00:12.718 --> 00:00:17.118 last month. The head of Nurad and 00:00:14.960 --> 00:00:20.160 Northcom, the military commands that 00:00:17.118 --> 00:00:22.559 defend North America, told Congress some 00:00:20.160 --> 00:00:25.518 of those mysterious drones seen flying 00:00:22.559 --> 00:00:28.000 inside the United States, may indeed 00:00:25.518 --> 00:00:31.118 have been spying. He did not say for 00:00:28.000 --> 00:00:33.519 whom. 60 Minutes has been looking into a 00:00:31.118 --> 00:00:36.159 series of eerily similar incidents going 00:00:33.520 --> 00:00:38.960 back years, including those attention 00:00:36.159 --> 00:00:41.679 getting flyovers in New Jersey recently. 00:00:38.960 --> 00:00:44.399 In each drones first appeared over 00:00:41.679 --> 00:00:47.039 restricted military or civilian sites, 00:00:44.399 --> 00:00:50.079 coming and going, often literally under 00:00:47.039 --> 00:00:52.800 the radar. The wakeup call came just 00:00:50.079 --> 00:00:55.039 over a year ago when drones invaded the 00:00:52.799 --> 00:00:58.399 skies above Langley Air Force Base in 00:00:55.039 --> 00:01:00.640 Virginia over 17 nights, forcing the 00:00:58.399 --> 00:01:03.280 relocation of our most advanced fighter 00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:06.560 jets. Our story starts with an 00:01:03.280 --> 00:01:08.478 eyewitness and an iPhone. 00:01:06.560 --> 00:01:12.560 Close around 7:00, I would say, I 00:01:08.478 --> 00:01:14.400 started seeing these reddish orange 00:01:12.560 --> 00:01:17.359 flashing lights that were starting to 00:01:14.400 --> 00:01:20.000 come in from the Virginia Beach area. It 00:01:17.359 --> 00:01:22.159 began slowly, like one at a time. 00:01:20.000 --> 00:01:26.400 Jonathan Butner's close encounter with 00:01:22.159 --> 00:01:28.560 drones came on December 14th, 2023. He 00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:31.600 was at his family's cabin on the James 00:01:28.560 --> 00:01:34.560 River in Virginia, about 100 miles south 00:01:31.599 --> 00:01:37.359 of Washington DC with a commanding view 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:40.240 of several military installations across 00:01:37.359 --> 00:01:42.400 the water. They started really coming in 00:01:40.239 --> 00:01:44.879 like almost like on a conveyor belt. How 00:01:42.400 --> 00:01:47.680 many in total? I probably saw upwards of 00:01:44.879 --> 00:01:50.879 40 plus. When I first saw that, I was 00:01:47.680 --> 00:01:53.680 like, th those are going directly over 00:01:50.879 --> 00:01:55.759 Langley Air Force Base. Langley is one 00:01:53.680 --> 00:01:56.730 of the most critical air bases on the 00:01:55.759 --> 00:01:57.959 east 00:01:56.730 --> 00:02:02.000 [Applause] 00:01:57.959 --> 00:02:04.559 coast. Home to dozens of F-22 Raptors, 00:02:02.000 --> 00:02:08.000 the most advanced stealth fighter jets 00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:10.479 ever built. Butner says from his perch, 00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:12.159 he has seen it all. I'm very familiar 00:02:10.479 --> 00:02:14.560 with all the different types of military 00:02:12.159 --> 00:02:17.520 craft. We have Blackhawks. We have the 00:02:14.560 --> 00:02:20.319 F-22s. And these were like nothing I've 00:02:17.520 --> 00:02:22.640 ever seen. Butner took these iPhone 00:02:20.318 --> 00:02:25.359 videos of the objects coming and going 00:02:22.639 --> 00:02:27.839 for nearly an hour and a half. These are 00:02:25.360 --> 00:02:31.200 the only public videos of the drones 00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:33.598 over Langley. From each other. Yes. He 00:02:31.199 --> 00:02:36.639 shared this video with the FBI for its 00:02:33.598 --> 00:02:39.039 investigation. And another Yes. The 00:02:36.639 --> 00:02:41.439 reports were coming in 20 to 30 00:02:39.039 --> 00:02:44.318 sightings, same time every evening, 30 00:02:41.439 --> 00:02:46.719 to 45 minutes after sunset. Retired 00:02:44.318 --> 00:02:48.878 four-star General Mark Kelly was the 00:02:46.719 --> 00:02:51.120 highest ranking officer at Langley to 00:02:48.878 --> 00:02:53.679 witness the swarm. A veteran fighter 00:02:51.120 --> 00:02:55.280 pilot, Kelly went up to the roof of a 00:02:53.680 --> 00:02:57.439 squadron headquarters for an 00:02:55.280 --> 00:03:00.159 unobstructed view of the airborne 00:02:57.439 --> 00:03:02.878 invaders. So, what did you see? Well, 00:03:00.159 --> 00:03:05.280 what you saw was different sizes of 00:03:02.878 --> 00:03:06.560 incursions of aircraft. You saw 00:03:05.280 --> 00:03:08.959 different altitudes, different air 00:03:06.560 --> 00:03:11.120 speeds. Some were rather loud, some 00:03:08.959 --> 00:03:13.598 weren't near as loud. What was the 00:03:11.120 --> 00:03:15.280 smallest one? What was the largest one? 00:03:13.598 --> 00:03:18.399 The smallest, you know, you're talking 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:21.680 about a commercial size quadcopter. And 00:03:18.400 --> 00:03:23.760 then the largest ones are probably size 00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:26.879 what I would call a bass boat or a small 00:03:23.759 --> 00:03:29.598 car. The size of a small car. H. At the 00:03:26.878 --> 00:03:32.239 time, General Glenn Van Herk was joint 00:03:29.598 --> 00:03:34.318 commander of NORAD and Northcom, the 00:03:32.239 --> 00:03:37.280 military commands that protect North 00:03:34.318 --> 00:03:39.439 American airspace. He has since retired. 00:03:37.280 --> 00:03:41.919 I actually provided support in the form 00:03:39.439 --> 00:03:43.919 of fighters, uh, airborne warning and 00:03:41.919 --> 00:03:46.518 control platforms, 00:03:43.919 --> 00:03:49.199 uh, helicopters to try to further 00:03:46.519 --> 00:03:50.239 categorize what those drones were at the 00:03:49.199 --> 00:03:52.878 time. 00:03:50.239 --> 00:03:55.120 10 months earlier, he ordered an F-22 00:03:52.878 --> 00:03:57.759 from Langley to shoot down that Chinese 00:03:55.120 --> 00:04:00.959 spy balloon over the Atlantic after it 00:03:57.759 --> 00:04:03.318 had sailed across the US. But this time, 00:04:00.959 --> 00:04:06.400 he found himself ill equipped to 00:04:03.318 --> 00:04:08.798 respond. NORAD's radar systems designed 00:04:06.400 --> 00:04:11.840 during the Cold War to detect high 00:04:08.799 --> 00:04:15.040 alitude air, space, or missile attacks 00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:17.358 were unable to detect low-flying drones 00:04:15.039 --> 00:04:19.839 that could be seen with the naked eye. 00:04:17.358 --> 00:04:21.120 Why don't we just shoot them down? 00:04:19.839 --> 00:04:24.319 Well, first you have to have the 00:04:21.120 --> 00:04:27.519 capability to detect, track, identify, 00:04:24.319 --> 00:04:30.719 make sure it's not a civilian airplane 00:04:27.519 --> 00:04:32.879 flying around. If you can do that, Bill, 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:36.000 then it becomes a safety issue for the 00:04:32.879 --> 00:04:38.959 American public. Firing missiles in our 00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:42.560 homeland is not taken lightly. We're not 00:04:38.959 --> 00:04:45.758 able to track them. We're not able to 00:04:42.560 --> 00:04:48.000 see where they originate. No, it's a 00:04:45.759 --> 00:04:50.560 capability gap. Certainly, they can come 00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:53.279 and go from any direction. The FBI is 00:04:50.560 --> 00:04:54.879 looking at potential options, but they 00:04:53.279 --> 00:04:56.879 don't have an answer right now, and 00:04:54.879 --> 00:04:59.600 there haven't been answers for similar 00:04:56.879 --> 00:05:01.360 encroachments for more than 5 years. 00:04:59.600 --> 00:05:04.000 There are multiple UAS in vicinity up 00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:07.759 Hamilton CPA 100 ft in altitude off the 00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:10.319 bow. In 2019, naval warships training 00:05:07.759 --> 00:05:13.680 off the California coast were shadowed 00:05:10.319 --> 00:05:16.399 for weeks by dozens of drones. We have 00:05:13.680 --> 00:05:19.360 visual of four probable unidentified 00:05:16.399 --> 00:05:21.839 drones with course unknown and speed 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:24.479 unknown. For years, the Pentagon did 00:05:21.839 --> 00:05:26.879 little to dispel speculation these 00:05:24.478 --> 00:05:30.478 images taken with night vision equipment 00:05:26.879 --> 00:05:33.759 were UFOs, but ship's logs show they 00:05:30.478 --> 00:05:35.758 were identified as drones at the time. 00:05:33.759 --> 00:05:38.000 And the Navy suspected they came from 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:41.360 this Hong Kong flagged freighter sailing 00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:43.839 nearby, but couldn't prove it. Since 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:46.560 then, the defense news site, the war 00:05:43.839 --> 00:05:48.799 zone, has documented dozens of drone 00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:52.639 intrusions at sensitive infrastructure 00:05:48.800 --> 00:05:55.520 and military installations. In 2019, the 00:05:52.639 --> 00:05:58.079 Palo Verde nuclear plant in Arizona, the 00:05:55.519 --> 00:06:01.519 largest power producer in the country. 00:05:58.079 --> 00:06:03.519 In 2024, an experimental weapons site in 00:06:01.519 --> 00:06:05.279 Southern California, where defense 00:06:03.519 --> 00:06:07.839 contractors are building the next 00:06:05.279 --> 00:06:10.799 generation of stealth bombers. Last 00:06:07.839 --> 00:06:13.038 December, the Army confirmed 11 drone 00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:15.038 sightings over the Pikatini Arsenal in 00:06:13.038 --> 00:06:18.000 northern New Jersey, where advanced 00:06:15.038 --> 00:06:21.279 weapons are designed and built. What is 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:23.839 that? Which ignited a public frenzy with 00:06:21.279 --> 00:06:26.638 sightings of unidentified flying objects 00:06:23.839 --> 00:06:29.439 all over the region. New Jersey remains 00:06:26.639 --> 00:06:31.680 the epicenter of the drone mystery. 00:06:29.439 --> 00:06:34.399 While much of the country was fixated on 00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:36.639 New Jersey, another swarm of drones was 00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:39.758 disrupting operations at an air base in 00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:43.280 the UK where US nuclear weapons have 00:06:39.759 --> 00:06:46.319 been stored. Clearly, uh there is a 00:06:43.279 --> 00:06:48.478 military intelligence aspect of this. 00:06:46.319 --> 00:06:50.639 Republican Senator Roger Wicker of 00:06:48.478 --> 00:06:52.758 Mississippi is chairman of the Armed 00:06:50.639 --> 00:06:55.519 Services Committee that oversees the 00:06:52.759 --> 00:06:58.319 Pentagon. We talked to him this past 00:06:55.519 --> 00:07:02.240 December. Do you believe that these 00:06:58.319 --> 00:07:04.720 drones are a spying system, a spying 00:07:02.240 --> 00:07:07.240 platform? What would a logical person 00:07:04.720 --> 00:07:11.120 conclude 00:07:07.240 --> 00:07:17.519 that that these are spying incursions? 00:07:11.120 --> 00:07:20.240 And yet I I can tell you I I am privy to 00:07:17.519 --> 00:07:23.439 to classified briefings at the highest 00:07:20.240 --> 00:07:25.439 level. I think the Pentagon and the 00:07:23.439 --> 00:07:29.439 National Security Adviserss are still 00:07:25.439 --> 00:07:32.478 mystified. Still mystified? Yes. More 00:07:29.439 --> 00:07:35.199 alarming, with drones overhead, some of 00:07:32.478 --> 00:07:38.038 the F-22s stationed at Langley were 00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:40.598 moved to a nearby air base for their own 00:07:38.038 --> 00:07:43.680 protection. There's a new wartime 00:07:40.598 --> 00:07:47.199 reality. Drones that can spy can also 00:07:43.680 --> 00:07:49.360 destroy. Deep inside Russia, advanced 00:07:47.199 --> 00:07:52.160 aircraft have been destroyed by 00:07:49.360 --> 00:07:55.280 Ukrainian drones. General Van Herk told 00:07:52.160 --> 00:07:58.319 us drones could do the same thing here. 00:07:55.279 --> 00:08:02.000 I have seen video of drones in various 00:07:58.319 --> 00:08:04.000 sizes flying over uh the F-22 flight 00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:05.240 line at Langley. What's your reaction to 00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:08.399 that? They 00:08:05.240 --> 00:08:10.240 could drop ordinance on them, drop bombs 00:08:08.399 --> 00:08:12.959 on them. They could crash into them to 00:08:10.240 --> 00:08:16.240 disable them. Was that a concern? 00:08:12.959 --> 00:08:19.359 Absolutely. It's a concern. Small UAS or 00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:21.439 drones can do a myriad of missions. 00:08:19.360 --> 00:08:23.680 President Biden was informed of the 00:08:21.439 --> 00:08:25.839 Langley intrusions and meetings were 00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:28.800 held at the White House to figure out 00:08:25.839 --> 00:08:32.240 how to bring the drones down, but after 00:08:28.800 --> 00:08:34.240 17 nights, the drone visitation stopped. 00:08:32.240 --> 00:08:36.639 A senior official in the Biden White 00:08:34.240 --> 00:08:39.200 House later downplayed the incident to 00:08:36.639 --> 00:08:42.360 60 Minutes, saying it was likely the 00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:46.160 work of hobbyists. From what you 00:08:42.360 --> 00:08:49.759 saw, did you rule out that these might 00:08:46.159 --> 00:08:51.679 be hobbyists sending these drones up? 00:08:49.759 --> 00:08:53.439 No. It would be my assessment they 00:08:51.679 --> 00:08:56.559 weren't hobbyists because of the 00:08:53.440 --> 00:08:58.720 magnitude of the events, the sizes of 00:08:56.559 --> 00:09:01.518 some of the drones, and the duration. 00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:03.680 So, what's going on? Well, I wish I had 00:09:01.519 --> 00:09:06.959 the answer. It certainly could have a 00:09:03.679 --> 00:09:08.799 foreign nexus, a threat nexus. They 00:09:06.958 --> 00:09:10.879 could be doing anything from surveilling 00:09:08.799 --> 00:09:13.439 critical infrastructure 00:09:10.879 --> 00:09:15.360 uh just to the point of uh embarrassing 00:09:13.440 --> 00:09:17.760 us from the fact that they can do this 00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:20.320 on a day-to-day basis uh and then we're 00:09:17.759 --> 00:09:23.519 not able to do anything about it. In 00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:25.920 overseas war zones, the US military has 00:09:23.519 --> 00:09:28.720 broad authority to bring down menacing 00:09:25.919 --> 00:09:32.079 drones with gunfire, missiles, and 00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:34.000 electronic jamming. Here at home, any of 00:09:32.080 --> 00:09:37.278 those actions would pose a threat to 00:09:34.000 --> 00:09:40.480 civilians on the ground and in the air. 00:09:37.278 --> 00:09:43.360 Well, we certainly need new systems to 00:09:40.480 --> 00:09:46.159 to counter this threat. A year ago, 00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:49.360 General Gregory Guo, a combat veteran, 00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:51.360 took control of NORAD and Northcom. He 00:09:49.360 --> 00:09:54.720 ordered a 90-day assessment of 00:09:51.360 --> 00:09:57.680 operations and says the drones, or UAVs, 00:09:54.720 --> 00:10:00.160 at Langley became the centerpiece. We're 00:09:57.679 --> 00:10:04.039 the most powerful military on the face 00:10:00.159 --> 00:10:09.120 of the earth and yet drones 00:10:04.039 --> 00:10:12.480 could fly over a major air force base 00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:15.120 and we couldn't stop them. How is that 00:10:12.480 --> 00:10:18.639 possible? Well, I think the uh the 00:10:15.120 --> 00:10:21.278 threat got ahead of our ability to uh 00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:24.319 detect and and track the threat. I think 00:10:21.278 --> 00:10:26.720 all eyes u were rightfully overseas 00:10:24.320 --> 00:10:30.000 where UAVs were being used on oneway 00:10:26.720 --> 00:10:34.480 attack to attack US and coalition 00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:36.078 service members and the threat in the US 00:10:34.480 --> 00:10:38.039 probably caught us by surprise a little 00:10:36.078 --> 00:10:43.239 bit as it stands 00:10:38.039 --> 00:10:46.480 today. Could you detect a swarm of 00:10:43.240 --> 00:10:48.799 drones flying over or flying into the 00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:50.879 airspace at at Langley? Could you detect 00:10:48.799 --> 00:10:55.039 that today? 00:10:50.879 --> 00:11:00.399 at at at low altitude. Uh probably not 00:10:55.039 --> 00:11:02.639 with your standard uh FAA or um uh 00:11:00.399 --> 00:11:05.759 surveillance radars complicating his 00:11:02.639 --> 00:11:08.078 efforts bureaucracy. When the drones 00:11:05.759 --> 00:11:10.519 flew outside the perimeter of Langley 00:11:08.078 --> 00:11:14.559 Air Force Base, other agencies had 00:11:10.519 --> 00:11:17.120 jurisdiction. The Coast Guard, FAA, FBI, 00:11:14.559 --> 00:11:19.958 and local police. There was no one 00:11:17.120 --> 00:11:22.959 agency in charge. So, what did you 00:11:19.958 --> 00:11:25.518 determine went on at Langley? Well, that 00:11:22.958 --> 00:11:29.599 that uh that investigation is still 00:11:25.519 --> 00:11:31.278 ongoing. Uh so, I don't think we know uh 00:11:29.600 --> 00:11:32.959 entirely what happened. You know, when 00:11:31.278 --> 00:11:36.958 we hear things from the White House that 00:11:32.958 --> 00:11:40.000 it's not deemed a threat. It it seems to 00:11:36.958 --> 00:11:42.719 me that this is alarming. I mean, this 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:46.159 is kind of hair on fire time. It it is 00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:48.800 alarming. And uh I would say that our 00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:50.319 hair is on fire here in in Northcom in a 00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:53.439 controlled way and we're moving out 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:55.920 extremely quickly. This past November, 00:11:53.440 --> 00:11:58.560 General Guo was given the authority to 00:11:55.919 --> 00:12:00.958 cut through the red tape and coordinate 00:11:58.559 --> 00:12:04.159 counter drone efforts across multiple 00:12:00.958 --> 00:12:06.239 government agencies. He says new, more 00:12:04.159 --> 00:12:08.799 sensitive radar systems are being 00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:11.278 installed at strategic bases and 00:12:08.799 --> 00:12:14.240 Northcom is developing what it calls 00:12:11.278 --> 00:12:16.639 flyaway kits with the latest anti- drone 00:12:14.240 --> 00:12:19.680 technology to be delivered to bases 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:22.079 besieged by drones. My goal is inside of 00:12:19.679 --> 00:12:24.879 a year that we would have uh the flyaway 00:12:22.078 --> 00:12:26.399 kit capability to augment uh the 00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:28.720 services and the installations if 00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:32.679 they're necessary. So within a year, 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:37.120 were Langley to happen again, there'd be 00:12:32.679 --> 00:12:39.679 some ability to respond. That's my goal. 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:42.320 His predecessor, Glenn Van Herk, says 00:12:39.679 --> 00:12:44.838 the Pentagon, White House, and Congress 00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:47.760 have underestimated this massive 00:12:44.839 --> 00:12:51.120 vulnerability for far too long. It's 00:12:47.759 --> 00:12:51.958 been one year since Langley had their 00:12:51.120 --> 00:12:54.159 drone 00:12:51.958 --> 00:12:56.078 incursion, and we don't have the 00:12:54.159 --> 00:12:58.879 policies and laws in place to deal with 00:12:56.078 --> 00:13:01.359 this. That's not a sense of urgency. Why 00:12:58.879 --> 00:13:03.240 do you think that is? 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:05.800 I think it's because there's a 00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:08.959 perception that this is fortress 00:13:05.799 --> 00:13:11.519 America, two oceans on the east and west 00:13:08.958 --> 00:13:13.199 with friendly nations north and south, 00:13:11.519 --> 00:13:15.839 and nobody's going to attack our 00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:18.839 homeland. It's time we move beyond that 00:13:15.839 --> 00:13:18.839 assumption. 00:13:25.278 --> 00:13:29.278 Earlier this summer, the Director of 00:13:27.278 --> 00:13:32.078 National Intelligence and Secretary of 00:13:29.278 --> 00:13:34.639 Defense released a highly anticipated, 00:13:32.078 --> 00:13:37.359 unclassified report about something the 00:13:34.639 --> 00:13:41.639 Pentagon calls unidentified aerial 00:13:37.360 --> 00:13:43.839 phenomena or UAP, more commonly known as 00:13:41.639 --> 00:13:46.799 UFOs. The government's grudging 00:13:43.839 --> 00:13:49.440 acknowledgement of 144 mysterious 00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:52.319 sightings documented by our military, 00:13:49.440 --> 00:13:54.720 comes after decades of public denial. 00:13:52.320 --> 00:13:57.120 But as we first reported in May, 00:13:54.720 --> 00:14:00.160 whatever is trespassing in our skies and 00:13:57.120 --> 00:14:02.560 seas poses a serious safety risk to our 00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:04.198 service men and women as well as our 00:14:02.559 --> 00:14:08.359 national 00:14:04.198 --> 00:14:11.159 security. So what you're telling me is 00:14:08.360 --> 00:14:14.278 that UFOs, 00:14:11.159 --> 00:14:16.559 unidentified flying objects, are 00:14:14.278 --> 00:14:18.078 real. Bill, I think we're beyond that 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:19.599 already. The government has already 00:14:18.078 --> 00:14:20.879 stated for the record that they're real. 00:14:19.600 --> 00:14:23.120 I'm not telling you that. The United 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:25.838 States government is telling you that 00:14:23.120 --> 00:14:27.679 Luis Alzando spent 20 years running 00:14:25.839 --> 00:14:30.240 military intelligence operations 00:14:27.679 --> 00:14:31.239 worldwide in Afghanistan, the Middle 00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:33.919 East, and 00:14:31.240 --> 00:14:36.879 Guantanamo. He hadn't given UFOs a 00:14:33.919 --> 00:14:38.719 second thought until 2008. That's when 00:14:36.879 --> 00:14:41.360 he was asked to join something at the 00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:44.800 Pentagon called the Advanced Aerospace 00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:46.800 Threat Identification Program or ATIP. 00:14:44.799 --> 00:14:49.278 The mission of ATIP was quite simple. 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:52.240 was to collect and analyze information 00:14:49.278 --> 00:14:53.759 involving anomalous uh aerial vehicles. 00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:56.959 What I guess in the vernacular you you 00:14:53.759 --> 00:14:59.679 call them UFOs. We call them UAPs. You 00:14:56.958 --> 00:15:02.719 know how this sounds. It sounds nutty, 00:14:59.679 --> 00:15:04.479 wacky. Look, Bill, I I'm not I'm not 00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:06.639 telling you that that it doesn't sound 00:15:04.480 --> 00:15:08.560 wacky. What I'm telling you is real. The 00:15:06.639 --> 00:15:11.120 question is what is it? What are its 00:15:08.559 --> 00:15:13.919 intentions? What are its capabilities? 00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:17.120 Buried away in the Pentagon, ATIP was 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:19.439 part of a $22 million program sponsored 00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:23.360 by then Senate Majority Leader Harry 00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:26.240 Reid to investigate UFOs. When Alzando 00:15:23.360 --> 00:15:28.240 took over in 2010, he focused on the 00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:30.959 national security implications of 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:34.079 unidentified aerial phenomena documented 00:15:30.958 --> 00:15:37.679 by US service members. Imagine a 00:15:34.078 --> 00:15:40.399 technology that can do 6 to 700 G-forces 00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:43.679 that can fly at 13,000 miles an hour 00:15:40.399 --> 00:15:46.799 that uh it can evade radar and that can 00:15:43.679 --> 00:15:49.359 fly through air and water and possibly 00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:51.758 space and oh by the way has no obvious 00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:54.000 signs of propulsions, no wings, no 00:15:51.759 --> 00:15:56.000 control surfaces and yet still can defy 00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:57.759 the natural effects of Earth's gravity. 00:15:56.000 --> 00:16:00.639 That's precisely what we're seeing. 00:15:57.759 --> 00:16:03.278 Alzando tells us ATIP was a loose-nit 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:05.839 mix of scientists, electroloptical 00:16:03.278 --> 00:16:08.720 engineers, avionics, and intelligence 00:16:05.839 --> 00:16:11.120 experts, often working part-time. They 00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:15.450 combed through data and records and 00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:18.399 analyzed videos like this. 00:16:15.450 --> 00:16:20.879 [Music] 00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:23.440 A Navy air crew struggles to lock on to 00:16:20.879 --> 00:16:25.470 a fastmoving object off the US Atlantic 00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:28.160 coast in 2015. 00:16:25.470 --> 00:16:30.240 [Applause] 00:16:28.159 --> 00:16:32.879 Recently released images may not 00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:35.680 convince UFO skeptics, but the Pentagon 00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:41.120 admits it doesn't know what in the world 00:16:35.679 --> 00:16:43.120 this is, or this or this. 00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:44.919 So, what do you say to the skeptics? 00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:49.320 It's refracted 00:16:44.919 --> 00:16:52.319 light, weather balloons, a rocket being 00:16:49.320 --> 00:16:54.639 launched, Venus. In some cases, there 00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:56.800 are are simple explanations for what 00:16:54.639 --> 00:16:59.919 people are witnessing, but there are 00:16:56.799 --> 00:17:01.359 some that that are not. We're not just 00:16:59.919 --> 00:17:03.519 simply jumping to a conclusion that's 00:17:01.360 --> 00:17:05.038 saying, "Oh, that's a UAP out there." 00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:06.720 We're going through our due diligence. 00:17:05.038 --> 00:17:08.318 Is it some sort of new type of cruise 00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:10.240 missile technology that China has 00:17:08.318 --> 00:17:12.480 developed? Is it some sort of high 00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:14.720 altitude balloon that's conducting 00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:17.038 reconnaissance? Ultimately, when you 00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:19.439 have exhausted all those what-ifs and 00:17:17.038 --> 00:17:21.519 you're still left with with the fact 00:17:19.439 --> 00:17:24.480 that this is in our airspace and it's 00:17:21.519 --> 00:17:27.038 real, that's when it becomes compelling 00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:29.919 and that's when it becomes problematic. 00:17:27.038 --> 00:17:32.558 Former Navy pilot Lieutenant Ryan Graves 00:17:29.919 --> 00:17:36.559 calls whatever is out there a security 00:17:32.558 --> 00:17:39.359 risk. He told us his F-18 squadron began 00:17:36.558 --> 00:17:42.160 seeing UAPs hovering over restricted 00:17:39.359 --> 00:17:44.639 airspace southeast of Virginia Beach in 00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:47.759 2014 when they updated their jet's 00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:50.640 radar, making it possible to zero in 00:17:47.759 --> 00:17:52.798 with infrared targeting cameras. So, 00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:55.120 you're seeing it both with the radar and 00:17:52.798 --> 00:17:57.839 with the infrared, and that tells you 00:17:55.119 --> 00:17:59.918 that there is something out there. 00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:02.558 Pretty hard to spoof that. These 00:17:59.919 --> 00:18:05.679 photographs were taken in 2019 in the 00:18:02.558 --> 00:18:08.960 same area. The Pentagon confirms these 00:18:05.679 --> 00:18:11.120 are images of objects it can't identify. 00:18:08.960 --> 00:18:13.279 Lieutenant Graves told us pilots 00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:16.359 training off the Atlantic coast see 00:18:13.279 --> 00:18:19.279 things like that all the time. Every 00:18:16.359 --> 00:18:21.359 day. Every day for at least a couple 00:18:19.279 --> 00:18:23.678 years. Wait a minute. Every day for a 00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:26.639 couple of years. Mhm. You know, I don't 00:18:23.679 --> 00:18:28.720 see an exhaust pool. including this one 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:31.759 off the coast of Jacksonville, Florida 00:18:28.720 --> 00:18:33.759 in 2015. Captured on a targeting camera 00:18:31.759 --> 00:18:38.000 by members of Graves Squadron. If 00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:39.960 there's another thing, it's rotating. 00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:42.000 My 00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:44.360 gosh. They're all going against the 00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:47.038 wind. The wind's 120 knots 00:18:44.359 --> 00:18:48.558 west. Dude, you can sort of hear the 00:18:47.038 --> 00:18:50.000 surprise in their voices. You certainly 00:18:48.558 --> 00:18:52.879 can. They seem to have broke character a 00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:54.558 bit. Uh, and we're just kind of amazed 00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:56.720 at what they were seeing. What do you 00:18:54.558 --> 00:18:58.879 think when you see something like this? 00:18:56.720 --> 00:19:01.360 This is a difficult one to explain. You 00:18:58.880 --> 00:19:03.520 have rotation, you have high altitudes, 00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:05.678 you have propulsion, right? I don't 00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:08.400 know. I don't know what it is, frankly. 00:19:05.679 --> 00:19:12.000 He told us pilots speculate they are one 00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:15.200 of three things. Secret US technology, 00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:16.880 an adversary spy vehicle, or something 00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:18.240 otherworldly. 00:19:16.880 --> 00:19:20.640 I would say, you know, the highest 00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:23.359 probability is it's a threat observation 00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:26.640 program. Could it be Russian or Chinese 00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:29.599 technology? I don't see why not. Are you 00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:30.960 alarmed? I I am worried. Uh, frankly, 00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:32.000 you know, if these were tactical jets 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:33.600 from another country that were hanging 00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:35.759 out up there, it would be a massive 00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:37.119 issue. But because it looks slightly 00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:39.279 different, we're not willing to actually 00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:41.119 look at the problem in the face. Uh, 00:19:39.279 --> 00:19:42.480 we're we're happy to just ignore the 00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:45.519 fact that these are out there watching 00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:47.839 us every day. The government has ignored 00:19:45.519 --> 00:19:51.119 it, at least publicly, since closing its 00:19:47.839 --> 00:19:53.279 Project Blue Book investigation in 1969. 00:19:51.119 --> 00:19:55.319 But that began to change after an 00:19:53.279 --> 00:19:58.720 incident off Southern California in 00:19:55.319 --> 00:20:01.918 2004, which was documented by radar, by 00:19:58.720 --> 00:20:04.640 camera, and four naval aviators. We 00:20:01.919 --> 00:20:06.559 spoke to two of them, David Fraver, a 00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:09.200 graduate of the Top Gun Naval Flight 00:20:06.558 --> 00:20:11.759 School and commander of the F-18 00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:14.480 squadron on the USS Nimttz. And flying 00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:16.960 at his wing, Lieutenant Alex Dietrich, 00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:19.120 who has never spoken publicly about the 00:20:16.960 --> 00:20:22.640 encounter. I never wanted to be on 00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:24.558 national TV. No offense. So why are you 00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:27.038 doing this? Because I was in a 00:20:24.558 --> 00:20:30.000 government aircraft because I was on the 00:20:27.038 --> 00:20:32.000 clock and so I feel a responsibility to 00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:35.000 to share what I can and it is 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:35.000 unclassified. 00:20:35.038 --> 00:20:41.200 It was November 2004 and the USS Nimtt's 00:20:38.798 --> 00:20:44.480 carrier strike group was training about 00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:47.279 100 miles southwest of San Diego. For a 00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:49.839 week, the advanced new radar on a nearby 00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:52.480 ship, the USS Princeton, had detected 00:20:49.839 --> 00:20:55.038 what operators called multiple anomalous 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:57.839 aerial vehicles over the horizon, 00:20:55.038 --> 00:21:00.079 descending 80,000 ft in less than a 00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:02.879 second. 00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:05.119 On November 14th, Fraver and Dietrich, 00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:07.559 each with a weapon system officer in the 00:21:05.119 --> 00:21:10.798 back seat, were diverted to 00:21:07.558 --> 00:21:14.079 investigate. They found an area of roing 00:21:10.798 --> 00:21:17.839 white water the size of a 737 in an 00:21:14.079 --> 00:21:20.879 otherwise calm blue sea. So, as we're 00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:23.918 looking at this, her backseater says, 00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:25.600 "Hey, Skipper, do you?" And about that 00:21:23.919 --> 00:21:27.600 got out. I said, "Dude, do you do you 00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:29.678 see that thing down there?" And we saw 00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:31.439 this little white tic-tac- looking 00:21:29.679 --> 00:21:33.919 object and it's just kind of moving 00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:36.720 above the white water area. As Dietrich 00:21:33.919 --> 00:21:39.440 circled above, Fraver went in for a 00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:41.720 closer look. Sort of spiraling down. The 00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:44.798 tic tac still pointing north south. It 00:21:41.720 --> 00:21:46.960 goes and just turns abruptly and starts 00:21:44.798 --> 00:21:48.558 mirroring me. So, as I'm coming down, it 00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:50.400 starts coming up. So, it's it's 00:21:48.558 --> 00:21:52.639 mimicking your moves. Yeah. It was aware 00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:55.759 we were there. He said it was about the 00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:58.480 size of his F-18 with no markings, no 00:21:55.759 --> 00:22:00.640 wings, no exhaust plumes. I want to see 00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:03.200 how close I can get. So I go like this 00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:04.320 and it's climbing still and when it gets 00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:07.519 right in front of me, it just 00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:10.798 disappears. Disappears. Disappears like 00:22:07.519 --> 00:22:13.038 gone. It had sped off. What are you 00:22:10.798 --> 00:22:14.158 thinking? So your your mind tries to 00:22:13.038 --> 00:22:17.440 make sense of it. I'm going to 00:22:14.159 --> 00:22:20.640 categorize this as maybe a helicopter or 00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:22.400 maybe a drone. And when it disappeared, 00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:24.960 I mean, it was just Did your back 00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:26.960 seaters see this, too? Yeah. Oh, yeah. 00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:28.240 There was four of us in the airplanes 00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:30.640 literally watching this thing for 00:22:28.240 --> 00:22:33.839 roughly about 5 minutes. Seconds later, 00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:36.480 the Princeton reacquired the target 60 00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:38.720 miles away. Another crew managed to 00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:41.759 briefly lock on to it with a targeting 00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:43.360 camera before it zipped off again. You 00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:46.038 know, I think that over beers, we've 00:22:43.359 --> 00:22:48.000 sort of said, "Hey, man, if I saw this 00:22:46.038 --> 00:22:49.679 solo, I don't know that I would have 00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:52.159 come back and said anything because it 00:22:49.679 --> 00:22:55.200 sounds so crazy when I say it." You 00:22:52.159 --> 00:22:56.640 understand that reaction? I do. I've had 00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:58.319 some people tell me, you know, when you 00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:01.400 say that, you can sound crazy. And I'll 00:22:58.319 --> 00:23:01.399 be hon. 00:23:05.919 --> 00:23:09.120 Yes. Oh, there's there's definitely 00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:11.279 something that I don't know who's 00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:12.959 building it, who's got the technology, 00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:15.918 who's got the brains, but there's 00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:18.240 there's something out there that was 00:23:15.919 --> 00:23:21.200 better than our airplane. The air crew 00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:24.038 filed reports. Then, like the mysterious 00:23:21.200 --> 00:23:26.558 flying object, the Nimtts encountered 00:23:24.038 --> 00:23:29.919 disappeared. Nothing was said or done 00:23:26.558 --> 00:23:32.639 officially for five years until Lou 00:23:29.919 --> 00:23:34.880 Alzando came across the story and 00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:37.120 investigated. We spend millions of 00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:38.880 dollars in training these these pilots 00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:41.359 and they are seeing something that they 00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:42.640 can't explain. Furthermore, that 00:23:41.359 --> 00:23:44.479 information is being backed up on 00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:47.440 electrooptical data like gun camera 00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:49.839 footage and by radar data. Now, to me, 00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:52.480 that's compelling. Inside the Pentagon, 00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:55.519 his findings were met with skepticism. 00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:58.079 AIP's funding was eliminated in 2012. 00:23:55.519 --> 00:24:00.798 But Alzando says he and a handful of 00:23:58.079 --> 00:24:03.678 others kept the mission alive until 00:24:00.798 --> 00:24:07.038 finally frustrated, he quit the Pentagon 00:24:03.679 --> 00:24:10.159 in 2017, but not before getting these 00:24:07.038 --> 00:24:13.200 three videos declassified. And then 00:24:10.159 --> 00:24:15.520 things took a stranger turn. I tried to 00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:16.720 help my colleague Lu Alzando elevate the 00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:18.319 issue in the department and actually get 00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:20.400 it to the Secretary of Defense. 00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:22.240 Christopher Melon served as deputy 00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:24.400 assistant secretary of defense for 00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:27.120 intelligence for presidents Clinton and 00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:29.919 George W. Bush and had access to top 00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:32.000 secret government programs. So it's not 00:24:29.919 --> 00:24:33.840 us. That's one thing we know. We know 00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:35.839 that. I can say that with a very high 00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:37.759 degree of confidence in part because of 00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:40.558 the positions I held in the department 00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:42.558 and I know the process. Melon says he 00:24:40.558 --> 00:24:46.000 grew concerned nothing was being done 00:24:42.558 --> 00:24:48.879 about UAPs. So he decided to do 00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:51.440 something. In 2017, as a private 00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:55.200 citizen, he surreptitiously acquired the 00:24:51.440 --> 00:24:58.480 three Navy videos had declassified and 00:24:55.200 --> 00:25:01.200 leaked them to the New York Times. It's 00:24:58.480 --> 00:25:03.038 bizarre and unfortunate that someone 00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:05.519 like myself has to do something like 00:25:03.038 --> 00:25:07.519 that to get a national security issue 00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:10.720 like this on the agenda. He joined 00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:12.639 forces with now civilian Lou Alzando and 00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:15.278 they started to tell their story to 00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:17.360 anybody who would listen to newspapers, 00:25:15.278 --> 00:25:19.679 the History Channel, to members of 00:25:17.359 --> 00:25:21.199 Congress. We knew and understood that 00:25:19.679 --> 00:25:22.400 you had to go to the public, get the 00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:24.960 public interested to get Congress 00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:26.880 interested to then circle back to the 00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:30.880 defense department and get them to start 00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:33.440 taking a look at it. And now it is. Last 00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:36.400 year, the Pentagon resurrected ATIP. 00:25:33.440 --> 00:25:38.880 It's now called the UAP Task Force. 00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:41.278 Service members now are encouraged to 00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:43.919 report strange encounters, and the 00:25:41.278 --> 00:25:45.679 Senate wants answers. Anything that 00:25:43.919 --> 00:25:48.159 enters an airspace that's not supposed 00:25:45.679 --> 00:25:51.038 to be there is a threat. After receiving 00:25:48.159 --> 00:25:53.520 classified briefings on UAPs, Senator 00:25:51.038 --> 00:25:56.480 Marco Rubio called for a detailed 00:25:53.519 --> 00:25:58.079 analysis. This past December, while he 00:25:56.480 --> 00:26:00.079 was still head of the intelligence 00:25:58.079 --> 00:26:02.399 committee, he asked the director of 00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:05.038 national intelligence and the Pentagon 00:26:02.400 --> 00:26:08.159 to present Congress an unclassified 00:26:05.038 --> 00:26:10.079 report by next month. This is a bizarre 00:26:08.159 --> 00:26:12.480 issue. The Pentagon and other branches 00:26:10.079 --> 00:26:15.759 of the military have a long history of 00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:16.798 sort of dismissing this. What makes you 00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:18.158 think that this time is going to be 00:26:16.798 --> 00:26:20.079 different? I mean, we're going to find 00:26:18.159 --> 00:26:21.760 out when we get that report. You know, 00:26:20.079 --> 00:26:23.038 there's a stigma on Capitol Hill. I 00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:25.119 mean, some of my colleagues are very 00:26:23.038 --> 00:26:27.119 interested in this topic and some kind 00:26:25.119 --> 00:26:29.119 of, you know, giggle when when you bring 00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:31.038 it up, but I I I don't think we can 00:26:29.119 --> 00:26:32.959 allow the stigma to keep us from having 00:26:31.038 --> 00:26:35.038 an answer to very fundamental question. 00:26:32.960 --> 00:26:36.558 What do you want us to do about this? I 00:26:35.038 --> 00:26:38.400 want us to take it seriously and have a 00:26:36.558 --> 00:26:40.399 process to take it seriously. I want us 00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:42.240 to have a process to analyze the data 00:26:40.400 --> 00:26:43.519 every time it comes in. That there be a 00:26:42.240 --> 00:26:45.720 place where this is cataloged and 00:26:43.519 --> 00:26:47.839 constantly analyzed until we get some 00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:49.400 answers. Maybe it has a very simple 00:26:47.839 --> 00:26:53.278 answer. 00:26:49.400 --> 00:26:55.679 Um, maybe it doesn't. 00:26:53.278 --> 00:26:57.278 A few weeks after our story aired, the 00:26:55.679 --> 00:27:00.159 director of national intelligence 00:26:57.278 --> 00:27:03.359 released an unclassified report saying 00:27:00.159 --> 00:27:05.600 UAP probably lack a single explanation, 00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:08.479 but that some quote appear to 00:27:05.599 --> 00:27:11.959 demonstrate advanced technology meriting 00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:11.960 further analysis. 00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:24.080 The United States Navy helped secure 00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:26.399 victory in two world wars and the Cold 00:27:24.079 --> 00:27:28.480 War. Today, the Navy remains a 00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:30.400 formidable fighting force. But even 00:27:28.480 --> 00:27:32.798 officers within the service have 00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:35.360 questioned its readiness. While the US 00:27:32.798 --> 00:27:37.839 spent 20 years fighting land wars in 00:27:35.359 --> 00:27:40.719 Iraq and Afghanistan, the Pentagon 00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:43.519 watched China, its greatest geopolitical 00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:46.640 rival of the 21st century, build the 00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:48.558 largest navy in the world. China has 00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:51.840 threatened to use that navy to invade 00:27:48.558 --> 00:27:54.319 Taiwan, an important American ally. As 00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:56.240 tensions with China continue to rise, we 00:27:54.319 --> 00:27:58.798 wanted to know more about the current 00:27:56.240 --> 00:28:01.359 state of the US Navy, how it's trying to 00:27:58.798 --> 00:28:04.398 deter China. And as we first reported in 00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:07.398 March, preparing for the possibility of 00:28:04.398 --> 00:28:07.398 war, 00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:14.079 the Navy's always on alert. Onethird of 00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:16.480 the Navy is always deployed and 00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:19.038 operating at all times. The Navy's 00:28:16.480 --> 00:28:21.679 mustering right now about 300 ships and 00:28:19.038 --> 00:28:24.240 there are about 100 ships at sea right 00:28:21.679 --> 00:28:27.038 now all around the globe. Admiral Samuel 00:28:24.240 --> 00:28:31.120 Paparro commands the USPacific Fleet, 00:28:27.038 --> 00:28:34.640 whose 200 ships and 150,000 sailors and 00:28:31.119 --> 00:28:37.439 civilians make up 60% of the entire US 00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:40.240 Navy. We met him in February on the 00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:43.200 aircraft carrier USS Nimmits, deployed 00:28:40.240 --> 00:28:45.679 near the US territory of Guam, southeast 00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:48.880 of Taiwan and the People's Republic of 00:28:45.679 --> 00:28:51.919 China or PRC. You've been operating as a 00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:53.520 naval officer for 40 years. How has 00:28:51.919 --> 00:28:56.360 operating in the Western Pacific 00:28:53.519 --> 00:29:00.558 changed? In the early 2000s, the PRC 00:28:56.359 --> 00:29:04.558 Navy mustered about 37 vessels. Today, 00:29:00.558 --> 00:29:07.119 they're mustering 350 vessels. In March, 00:29:04.558 --> 00:29:10.720 China's new foreign minister, Chin Gong, 00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:12.639 delivered a stern warning to the US. He 00:29:10.720 --> 00:29:15.038 said that if Washington does not change 00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:17.278 course in its stance towards China, 00:29:15.038 --> 00:29:18.879 conflict and confrontation is 00:29:17.278 --> 00:29:20.960 inevitable. 00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:23.200 This past August, when then Speaker of 00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:25.600 the House Nancy Pelosi became the most 00:29:23.200 --> 00:29:28.798 senior US political figure to visit 00:29:25.599 --> 00:29:30.439 Taiwan in 25 years, China called it a 00:29:28.798 --> 00:29:32.639 blatant 00:29:30.440 --> 00:29:35.038 provocation. The People's Liberation 00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:37.759 Army fired ballistic missiles into the 00:29:35.038 --> 00:29:40.398 sea around Taiwan and encircled the 00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:43.359 island with aircraft and warships. So, 00:29:40.398 --> 00:29:45.918 are Chinese warships now operating 00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:48.479 closer to Taiwan after Nancy Pelosy's 00:29:45.919 --> 00:29:51.278 visit? Yes. 00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:53.519 The best guess anyone has about China's 00:29:51.278 --> 00:29:55.839 ultimate intentions for Taiwan comes 00:29:53.519 --> 00:29:57.759 from the CIA. According to its 00:29:55.839 --> 00:30:00.398 intelligence assessment, China's 00:29:57.759 --> 00:30:02.798 President Xi Jinping has ordered the 00:30:00.398 --> 00:30:05.278 People's Liberation Army to be prepared 00:30:02.798 --> 00:30:09.759 to take back the island by force by 00:30:05.278 --> 00:30:12.000 2027. And if China invades Taiwan, what 00:30:09.759 --> 00:30:13.839 will the US Navy do? It's a decision of 00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:16.240 the President of the United States and a 00:30:13.839 --> 00:30:20.558 decision of the Congress. It's our duty 00:30:16.240 --> 00:30:23.519 to be ready for that. But the bulk of 00:30:20.558 --> 00:30:26.480 the United States Navy will be deployed 00:30:23.519 --> 00:30:29.679 rapidly to the Western Pacific to come 00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:32.159 to the aid of Taiwan if the order comes 00:30:29.679 --> 00:30:34.880 to aid Taiwan in thwarting that 00:30:32.159 --> 00:30:39.840 invasion. Is the US Navy ready? We're 00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:42.320 ready. Yes. Uh I'll never admit to being 00:30:39.839 --> 00:30:44.879 ready enough. Yes. President Biden has 00:30:42.319 --> 00:30:47.038 declared four times, including on 60 00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:50.080 Minutes, that the US military would 00:30:47.038 --> 00:30:52.480 defend Taiwan, which is a democracy and 00:30:50.079 --> 00:30:56.398 the world's leading producer of advanced 00:30:52.480 --> 00:30:58.880 microchips. 604. To reach the USS 00:30:56.398 --> 00:31:01.199 Nimmitz, we first traveled to America's 00:30:58.880 --> 00:31:04.399 westernmost territory, the island of 00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:07.278 Guam in the middle of the Pacific. 00:31:04.398 --> 00:31:10.359 Guam was taken by Imperial Japan two 00:31:07.278 --> 00:31:13.440 days after the attack on Pearl Harbor in 00:31:10.359 --> 00:31:15.678 1941. US Marines recaptured it two and a 00:31:13.440 --> 00:31:17.759 half years later. And the island about 00:31:15.679 --> 00:31:20.080 the size of Chicago became an 00:31:17.759 --> 00:31:22.679 indispensable strategic foothold in the 00:31:20.079 --> 00:31:26.000 Western Pacific as it remains 00:31:22.679 --> 00:31:28.640 today. From Guam, we boarded a Navy C2 00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:30.798 Greyhound. The Cold War era transport 00:31:28.640 --> 00:31:35.240 plane takes people and supplies back and 00:31:30.798 --> 00:31:35.240 forth from land to the carrier. 00:31:35.839 --> 00:31:43.000 It was a short flight to the ship and an 00:31:39.278 --> 00:31:43.000 even shorter landing. 00:31:43.919 --> 00:31:48.720 Incredible. First COD landing. Yes. Oh, 00:31:46.640 --> 00:31:51.360 very nice. Certain operations before 00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:54.240 Admiral Paparo rose to lead the Pacific 00:31:51.359 --> 00:31:56.798 Fleet. He flew jets and graduated from 00:31:54.240 --> 00:31:58.640 the school known as Top Gun. When you 00:31:56.798 --> 00:32:00.398 talk about ships, what's the most 00:31:58.640 --> 00:32:03.038 powerful in the US Navy? It's an 00:32:00.398 --> 00:32:06.798 aircraft carrier and its airwing is 00:32:03.038 --> 00:32:09.919 capable of 150 strike or air-to-air 00:32:06.798 --> 00:32:12.879 sorties per day with uh at its surge 00:32:09.919 --> 00:32:16.679 levels the ability to deliver 900 00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:19.278 precision guided munitions every day and 00:32:16.679 --> 00:32:21.440 reloadable every night. So even though 00:32:19.278 --> 00:32:23.359 China now has the largest navy in the 00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:25.200 world, they don't have anything like 00:32:23.359 --> 00:32:27.678 this in terms of aircraft carriers. They 00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:29.200 do not. but they're working towards it 00:32:27.679 --> 00:32:31.440 and they have they have two operational 00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:34.640 aircraft carriers right now. That's 00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:37.919 China's two dieselfueled carriers to the 00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:40.240 US's 11 nuclearpowered ones that can 00:32:37.919 --> 00:32:42.880 carry a total of about a thousand attack 00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:45.759 aircraft, more than the navies of every 00:32:42.880 --> 00:32:48.159 other nation on Earth combined. I'll 00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:49.919 tell you this, we are here to stay right 00:32:48.159 --> 00:32:51.200 in the South China Sea and in this part 00:32:49.919 --> 00:32:53.519 of the world. And I think that's the 00:32:51.200 --> 00:32:56.080 message that we really want to convey to 00:32:53.519 --> 00:32:58.079 not only China but the entire world. We 00:32:56.079 --> 00:32:59.678 will sail wherever international law 00:32:58.079 --> 00:33:01.759 allows. 00:32:59.679 --> 00:33:04.759 Lieutenant Commander David Ash flies an 00:33:01.759 --> 00:33:04.759 FA18. 00:33:05.278 --> 00:33:12.159 Do you get briefed on China's growing 00:33:08.398 --> 00:33:15.278 military threat and the progress that 00:33:12.159 --> 00:33:16.799 their navy is making? Absolutely. Yeah, 00:33:15.278 --> 00:33:19.200 absolutely we do and they are making 00:33:16.798 --> 00:33:20.960 great progress in a lot of key areas of 00:33:19.200 --> 00:33:23.759 the Chinese. the Chinese are from a 00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:25.600 military standpoint. This video from 00:33:23.759 --> 00:33:29.119 weapons systems officer Lieutenant 00:33:25.599 --> 00:33:31.278 Commander Matthew Carlton shows his FA18 00:33:29.119 --> 00:33:35.599 strafing ground targets with a machine 00:33:31.278 --> 00:33:35.599 gun on a US weapons range near 00:33:36.679 --> 00:33:41.679 Guam. The pilots on the Nimmits also 00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:45.278 conduct air-to-air combat or dog 00:33:41.679 --> 00:33:48.000 fighting drills daily. 00:33:45.278 --> 00:33:50.558 How aggressive has China become in the 00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:53.440 air? aggressive. And uh just some 00:33:50.558 --> 00:33:56.158 examples include unsafe, unprofessional 00:33:53.440 --> 00:33:58.558 intercepts where they move within single 00:33:56.159 --> 00:34:00.080 digits of feet of other aircraft, 00:33:58.558 --> 00:34:01.440 flashing the weapons that they have on 00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:03.199 board to the air crew of the other 00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:06.159 aircraft, operating in international 00:34:03.200 --> 00:34:09.280 airspace, maneuvering their aircraft in 00:34:06.159 --> 00:34:11.838 such a way that denies the the ability 00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:14.480 to turn in one direction. If they're 00:34:11.838 --> 00:34:18.000 safe and professional, then there's no 00:34:14.480 --> 00:34:20.960 problem. Everybody has the right to fly 00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:22.639 and sail wherever international law 00:34:20.960 --> 00:34:25.039 dictates. But the Chinese are pushing 00:34:22.639 --> 00:34:27.119 that. They are pushing it. China's 00:34:25.039 --> 00:34:29.358 increasingly aggressive moves in the 00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:32.399 Western Pacific, encroaching on 00:34:29.358 --> 00:34:34.480 territory, illegal fishing, and building 00:34:32.398 --> 00:34:37.279 bases in the middle of the South China 00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:40.240 Sea have pushed nations like Japan and 00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:43.919 the Philippines to forge closer military 00:34:40.239 --> 00:34:47.118 ties to the US. And earlier this year, 00:34:43.918 --> 00:34:49.279 Britain, the US, and Australia signed a 00:34:47.119 --> 00:34:51.919 landmark deal to jointly develop 00:34:49.280 --> 00:34:53.159 nuclearpowered attack submarines to 00:34:51.918 --> 00:34:56.239 patrol the 00:34:53.159 --> 00:34:59.280 Pacific. This is how China and Taiwan 00:34:56.239 --> 00:35:01.759 appear on most maps. This is how the 00:34:59.280 --> 00:35:04.320 Chinese Communist Party sees the Western 00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:07.680 Pacific, including the South and East 00:35:04.320 --> 00:35:10.240 China seas from Beijing. Taiwan is the 00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:13.039 fulcrum in what China's leaders call the 00:35:10.239 --> 00:35:15.759 first island chain. a constellation of 00:35:13.039 --> 00:35:19.599 US allies that stretches across its 00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:22.560 entire coast. Control of Taiwan is the 00:35:19.599 --> 00:35:25.039 strategic key to unlocking direct access 00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:28.119 to the Pacific and the seal lanes where 00:35:25.039 --> 00:35:31.039 about 50% of the world's commerce gets 00:35:28.119 --> 00:35:34.160 transported. China has accused the 00:35:31.039 --> 00:35:37.920 United States of trying to contain them. 00:35:34.159 --> 00:35:40.639 What do you say to China? I would say uh 00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:42.519 do you need to be contained? Are you 00:35:40.639 --> 00:35:44.799 expanding? Are you an expansionist 00:35:42.519 --> 00:35:47.759 power? To a very great extent, the 00:35:44.800 --> 00:35:49.160 United States was the champion for 00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:53.079 China's 00:35:49.159 --> 00:35:57.199 rise. And in no way are we seeking to 00:35:53.079 --> 00:36:00.320 contain China. What we are seeking for 00:35:57.199 --> 00:36:02.078 them to play by the rules. China's Navy, 00:36:00.320 --> 00:36:05.519 a branch of the People's Liberation 00:36:02.079 --> 00:36:09.359 Army, is now the world's largest. China 00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:12.079 is also using its 9,000mi coastline to 00:36:09.358 --> 00:36:15.159 rewrite the rules of fighting at sea. As 00:36:12.079 --> 00:36:18.000 these images from Chinese state media 00:36:15.159 --> 00:36:20.719 show, its military has invested heavily 00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:24.320 in long range precisiong guided weapons 00:36:20.719 --> 00:36:28.439 like the DF-21 and DF-26 that can be 00:36:24.320 --> 00:36:28.440 used to target ships. 00:36:28.639 --> 00:36:34.239 China's People's Liberation Army Rocket 00:36:31.280 --> 00:36:36.160 Force calls them carrier killers and has 00:36:34.239 --> 00:36:38.479 practiced shooting them at mock-ups of 00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:40.960 American ships in the desert that look a 00:36:38.480 --> 00:36:43.400 lot like the Nimmits. Since the United 00:36:40.960 --> 00:36:46.480 States has been operating in the Western 00:36:43.400 --> 00:36:49.039 Pacific, China's backyard, they've been 00:36:46.480 --> 00:36:51.039 developing missiles to attack our 00:36:49.039 --> 00:36:53.239 assets, haven't they? Specific missiles. 00:36:51.039 --> 00:36:56.159 Absolutely. Yes. First, I'll 00:36:53.239 --> 00:36:58.799 say the United States is also a Western 00:36:56.159 --> 00:37:02.078 Pacific nation. So, it's not it's not 00:36:58.800 --> 00:37:05.240 China's backyard. It's, you know, it is 00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:08.320 a free and open Indo-Pacific that 00:37:05.239 --> 00:37:11.519 encompasses numerous partners and treaty 00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:13.680 allies. And yes, we have seen them 00:37:11.519 --> 00:37:15.440 greatly enhance their power projection 00:37:13.679 --> 00:37:17.838 capability. How much do you worry about 00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:19.679 the PLA rocket force? I worry, you know, 00:37:17.838 --> 00:37:21.440 I'd be a fool to not worry about. And of 00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:24.000 course, I worry about the the LA rocket 00:37:21.440 --> 00:37:26.000 force. Of course, I work every single 00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:27.760 day to develop the tactics and the 00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:30.000 techniques and the procedures to counter 00:37:27.760 --> 00:37:32.960 it and to continue to develop the 00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:35.119 systems that can also defend uh against 00:37:32.960 --> 00:37:37.440 them. About how far are we from mainland 00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:40.160 China? 1500 nautical miles. They can hit 00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:41.639 us. Yes, they can. If they've got the 00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:43.759 targeting in 00:37:41.639 --> 00:37:46.799 place, they could hit this aircraft 00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:48.800 carrier. If I don't want to be hit, 00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:50.880 there's something I can do about it. US 00:37:48.800 --> 00:37:53.519 Navy planners aren't just plotting how 00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:55.960 to evade China's rocket force, but also 00:37:53.519 --> 00:37:59.119 how they could effectively fight 00:37:55.960 --> 00:38:01.679 back. From the vicinity of Guam, none of 00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:04.720 the aircraft on this ship has the range 00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:06.799 to approach Taiwan without refueling in 00:38:04.719 --> 00:38:09.279 the air. 00:38:06.800 --> 00:38:11.519 Ships like the US destroyer Wayne E 00:38:09.280 --> 00:38:13.920 Meyer, part of the Nimtt strike group, 00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:16.639 would need to sail much closer towards 00:38:13.920 --> 00:38:20.480 China to fire their missiles at any 00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:23.519 force invading Taiwan. One naval scholar 00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:26.358 we spoke to likened it to a boxing match 00:38:23.519 --> 00:38:29.519 in which a fighter, in this case 00:38:26.358 --> 00:38:32.559 China, has much longer arms than their 00:38:29.519 --> 00:38:34.719 potential opponent, the US. I'll give 00:38:32.559 --> 00:38:37.358 you a lot of examples where a shorter 00:38:34.719 --> 00:38:40.159 fighter was able to prevail over a long 00:38:37.358 --> 00:38:44.400 firearm fighter by being on their toes 00:38:40.159 --> 00:38:47.440 by maneuvering and we can also stick and 00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:50.000 move uh while we're developing those 00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:52.159 those longer range weapons. There is 00:38:50.000 --> 00:38:54.400 another area of modern naval warfare 00:38:52.159 --> 00:38:57.759 where the US had a head start and 00:38:54.400 --> 00:38:59.440 retains a deep advantage over China. I 00:38:57.760 --> 00:39:01.760 just noticed out of the corner of my eye 00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:04.000 this this is a 688 class of Los Angeles 00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:06.560 class attack submarine. This is the most 00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:08.239 capable submarine on the planet. You 00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:11.199 know with the exception of the Virginia 00:39:08.239 --> 00:39:14.078 class, our newer class of submarines. 00:39:11.199 --> 00:39:15.679 The exact number is classified, but our 00:39:14.079 --> 00:39:17.920 best estimate is that there are about a 00:39:15.679 --> 00:39:20.399 dozen nuclearpowered fast attack 00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:23.119 submarines patrolling the Pacific at any 00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:25.440 time. They are difficult to detect and 00:39:23.119 --> 00:39:29.119 track, something China is trying to 00:39:25.440 --> 00:39:32.480 solve. How much more advanced is US 00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:34.720 submarine technology than Chinese 00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:38.079 capability? A generation. Generation. 00:39:34.719 --> 00:39:40.159 And u by a generation think 10 or 20 00:39:38.079 --> 00:39:42.320 years. But broadly, I don't really talk 00:39:40.159 --> 00:39:44.879 in depth about submarine capabilities. 00:39:42.320 --> 00:39:47.359 It's the silent service. Since Nancy 00:39:44.880 --> 00:39:49.519 Pelos's visit to Taiwan, China's 00:39:47.358 --> 00:39:52.319 military leaders have themselves been 00:39:49.519 --> 00:39:54.559 mostly silent and ignored efforts by the 00:39:52.320 --> 00:39:57.280 US military to keep the lines of 00:39:54.559 --> 00:39:59.838 communication open, even when a Chinese 00:39:57.280 --> 00:40:03.200 spy balloon breached American airspace 00:39:59.838 --> 00:40:06.400 and was shot down by the US. If the US 00:40:03.199 --> 00:40:09.118 and Chinese militaries can't communicate 00:40:06.400 --> 00:40:10.720 over a Chinese spy balloon, then what's 00:40:09.119 --> 00:40:13.200 going to happen when there's a real 00:40:10.719 --> 00:40:15.358 crisis in the South China Sea or with 00:40:13.199 --> 00:40:17.480 Taiwan? We'll hope that they'll answer 00:40:15.358 --> 00:40:21.199 the 00:40:17.480 --> 00:40:23.199 phone else we'll do our very best 00:40:21.199 --> 00:40:25.919 assessment based on the things that they 00:40:23.199 --> 00:40:29.039 say in open source and based on their 00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:30.720 behavior to define their intentions and 00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:33.199 we'll act accordingly. 00:40:30.719 --> 00:40:36.319 Doesn't that make the situation even 00:40:33.199 --> 00:40:39.759 more dangerous if US and Chinese 00:40:36.320 --> 00:40:42.079 militaries are not talking? Yes. 00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:45.119 Several sources within the Pentagon tell 00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:47.440 60 Minutes that if China invaded Taiwan, 00:40:45.119 --> 00:40:49.920 it could very well kick off in outer 00:40:47.440 --> 00:40:52.159 space with both sides targeting the 00:40:49.920 --> 00:40:54.880 others satellites that enable precisiong 00:40:52.159 --> 00:40:57.358 guided weaponry. Cyber attacks on 00:40:54.880 --> 00:40:59.519 American cities and the sabotage of 00:40:57.358 --> 00:41:02.639 ports on the west coast of the US 00:40:59.519 --> 00:41:04.960 mainland could follow. One recent 00:41:02.639 --> 00:41:07.519 non-classified war game had the US 00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:10.000 prevailing but losing 20 ships including 00:41:07.519 --> 00:41:13.838 two carriers. Does that sound about 00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:16.239 right? That is a plausible outcome. I 00:41:13.838 --> 00:41:18.880 can imagine a more pessimistic outcome 00:41:16.239 --> 00:41:21.679 and I can imagine a more optimistic 00:41:18.880 --> 00:41:24.000 outcome. We should be cleareyed about 00:41:21.679 --> 00:41:25.519 the costs that we're potentially 00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:28.239 incurring. 00:41:25.519 --> 00:41:31.280 There are about 5,000 Americans on board 00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:34.078 the Nimtts. The ship is nearly half a 00:41:31.280 --> 00:41:36.160 century old. Given the Navy's current 00:41:34.079 --> 00:41:38.200 needs in the Pacific, and because 00:41:36.159 --> 00:41:41.279 there's fuel left in its nuclear 00:41:38.199 --> 00:41:44.318 reactors, the carrier's life at sea is 00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:47.760 going to be extended. Is it your hope 00:41:44.318 --> 00:41:51.199 that the power of the US Navy, the force 00:41:47.760 --> 00:41:53.359 posture of the US Navy will deter a 00:41:51.199 --> 00:41:56.078 Chinese invasion of Taiwan? It's not my 00:41:53.358 --> 00:41:58.239 hope. It's my duty in conjunction with 00:41:56.079 --> 00:42:01.039 allies and partners to deliver 00:41:58.239 --> 00:42:03.519 intolerable costs to anybody that would 00:42:01.039 --> 00:42:05.838 upend the order in violation of the 00:42:03.519 --> 00:42:08.719 nation's security or in violation of the 00:42:05.838 --> 00:42:11.599 nation's interests. the saying which is 00:42:08.719 --> 00:42:15.679 see PC paravevel which is if you want 00:42:11.599 --> 00:42:17.519 peace prepare for war. Since our story 00:42:15.679 --> 00:42:19.679 first aired in March, China has 00:42:17.519 --> 00:42:22.559 intensified its aggressive military 00:42:19.679 --> 00:42:25.358 tactics in the Western Pacific. In June, 00:42:22.559 --> 00:42:28.639 a Chinese warship nearly collided with a 00:42:25.358 --> 00:42:31.039 US destroyer in the Taiwan Strait. When 00:42:28.639 --> 00:42:36.358 we return, critical questions about the 00:42:31.039 --> 00:42:36.358 state of the US Navy and its readiness. 00:42:42.880 --> 00:42:47.519 60 Minutes spent months talking to 00:42:45.199 --> 00:42:49.838 current and former naval officers, 00:42:47.519 --> 00:42:52.880 military strategists, and politicians 00:42:49.838 --> 00:42:54.719 about the state of the US Navy. One 00:42:52.880 --> 00:42:57.680 common thread in our reporting is 00:42:54.719 --> 00:43:00.318 unease, both about the size of the US 00:42:57.679 --> 00:43:02.799 fleet and its readiness to fight. The 00:43:00.318 --> 00:43:05.039 Navy ships are being retired faster than 00:43:02.800 --> 00:43:08.160 they're getting replaced. While the Navy 00:43:05.039 --> 00:43:10.719 of the People's Republic of China or PRC 00:43:08.159 --> 00:43:13.199 grows larger and more lethal by the 00:43:10.719 --> 00:43:15.679 year, we first asked the commander of 00:43:13.199 --> 00:43:18.239 the US Pacific Fleet, Admiral Samuel 00:43:15.679 --> 00:43:21.118 Paparro, about this on our visit earlier 00:43:18.239 --> 00:43:24.399 this year to the USS Nimttz, the oldest 00:43:21.119 --> 00:43:27.200 aircraft carrier in the Navy. 00:43:24.400 --> 00:43:32.480 We call it the decade of concern. We've 00:43:27.199 --> 00:43:35.199 seen a t-fold increase in the size of 00:43:32.480 --> 00:43:38.880 the PRC Navy. Technically speaking, the 00:43:35.199 --> 00:43:40.799 Chinese now have the largest navy in the 00:43:38.880 --> 00:43:43.440 world in terms of number of ships. 00:43:40.800 --> 00:43:45.280 Correct. Do the numbers matter? Yes. As 00:43:43.440 --> 00:43:48.559 the saying goes, quantity has equality 00:43:45.280 --> 00:43:51.519 all its own. At some point, are they 00:43:48.559 --> 00:43:53.679 going to reach numbers that we can't 00:43:51.519 --> 00:43:55.838 prevail over? I'm not comfortable with 00:43:53.679 --> 00:43:58.159 the trajectory. If you look at a map of 00:43:55.838 --> 00:44:00.000 the Indoacific, one thing becomes clear. 00:43:58.159 --> 00:44:04.399 There's a lot of water on that map. And 00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:06.800 so ours has to be a maritime strategy. 00:44:04.400 --> 00:44:08.960 Republican Mike Gallagher and Democrat 00:44:06.800 --> 00:44:10.960 Elaine Lauria served together on the 00:44:08.960 --> 00:44:13.519 House Armed Services Committee in the 00:44:10.960 --> 00:44:15.679 last Congress. What is it about the US 00:44:13.519 --> 00:44:17.679 Navy that has allowed the two of you to 00:44:15.679 --> 00:44:19.519 find common cause? I think we share a 00:44:17.679 --> 00:44:22.159 sense of the urgency of the moment. We 00:44:19.519 --> 00:44:24.318 see increasing threats from China in 00:44:22.159 --> 00:44:25.920 particular in the Indoacific. We feel 00:44:24.318 --> 00:44:28.400 like we're not moving fast enough to 00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:30.400 build a bigger navy. Congressman 00:44:28.400 --> 00:44:32.960 Gallagher is a Marine veteran who 00:44:30.400 --> 00:44:35.760 represents Green Bay, Wisconsin. He 00:44:32.960 --> 00:44:37.760 chairs the new House Committee on China. 00:44:35.760 --> 00:44:40.000 He's concerned that under the Navy's 00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:44.319 current plan, the fleet will shrink to 00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:47.199 about 280 ships by 2027, the same year 00:44:44.318 --> 00:44:50.159 the CIA says China has set for having 00:44:47.199 --> 00:44:52.078 the capability to take Taiwan by force. 00:44:50.159 --> 00:44:54.960 So, we will be weakest when our enemy is 00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:56.400 potentially strongest. China's increased 00:44:54.960 --> 00:44:58.240 rhetoric and potential aggression 00:44:56.400 --> 00:44:59.920 against Taiwan. We're going to have to 00:44:58.239 --> 00:45:02.078 be ready to respond today with the 00:44:59.920 --> 00:45:04.480 forces we have today. Former 00:45:02.079 --> 00:45:07.359 Congresswoman Elaine Lauria represented 00:45:04.480 --> 00:45:10.000 Virginia Beach until this past January. 00:45:07.358 --> 00:45:12.159 Anapapolis graduate, Lauria had a 00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:14.239 20-year naval career before being 00:45:12.159 --> 00:45:17.039 elected to Congress. What would you say 00:45:14.239 --> 00:45:18.879 the state of the US Navy is today? I 00:45:17.039 --> 00:45:20.719 think the Navy has not received the 00:45:18.880 --> 00:45:22.480 attention and resources that it needs 00:45:20.719 --> 00:45:23.919 over two decades. I mean, I served on 00:45:22.480 --> 00:45:26.240 six different ships. Every single one of 00:45:23.920 --> 00:45:29.680 those ships was either built during or a 00:45:26.239 --> 00:45:32.318 product of the fleet that was built um 00:45:29.679 --> 00:45:34.239 in the Cold War. Both Mike Gallagher and 00:45:32.318 --> 00:45:36.400 Elaine Lauria have lobbyed for 00:45:34.239 --> 00:45:38.239 government money for the shipyards in or 00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:40.559 near their districts, but they say this 00:45:38.239 --> 00:45:42.639 is less about jobs and more about 00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:44.078 national security. Yeah, if we don't get 00:45:42.639 --> 00:45:45.519 this right, all of these other things 00:45:44.079 --> 00:45:46.880 we're doing in Congress ultimately that 00:45:45.519 --> 00:45:48.719 might not matter. If you think about 00:45:46.880 --> 00:45:50.640 what a coherent grand strategy visa v 00:45:48.719 --> 00:45:52.159 China would be, hard power would be the 00:45:50.639 --> 00:45:53.838 most important part of that and the Navy 00:45:52.159 --> 00:45:56.480 would be the most important component of 00:45:53.838 --> 00:45:58.799 your hard power investments. 00:45:56.480 --> 00:46:02.559 Over the last two decades, the Navy 00:45:58.800 --> 00:46:05.599 spent $55 billion on two investments 00:46:02.559 --> 00:46:07.440 that did not pan out. The first was a 00:46:05.599 --> 00:46:10.318 class of destroyers known as the 00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:13.159 Zoomwalt. The futuristic fighting ships 00:46:10.318 --> 00:46:16.719 were supposed to revolutionize naval 00:46:13.159 --> 00:46:19.279 warfare. 32 were ordered, but only three 00:46:16.719 --> 00:46:22.519 were ever launched. The cost of each 00:46:19.280 --> 00:46:25.760 ship, by one estimate, was upwards of 8 00:46:22.519 --> 00:46:30.000 billion, making them the three most 00:46:25.760 --> 00:46:32.480 expensive destroyers ever put to sea. 00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:35.519 Another example is the latoral combat 00:46:32.480 --> 00:46:38.119 ship or LCS designed to be a fast 00:46:35.519 --> 00:46:41.920 all-purpose warship for shallow 00:46:38.119 --> 00:46:44.800 waters. $30 billion later, the program 00:46:41.920 --> 00:46:47.599 ran a ground after structural defects 00:46:44.800 --> 00:46:50.800 and engine trouble. Within the Navy, the 00:46:47.599 --> 00:46:53.680 LCS earned the unfortunate nickname 00:46:50.800 --> 00:46:56.000 little crappy ship. The Navy's last few 00:46:53.679 --> 00:46:57.919 decades have been described as a lost 00:46:56.000 --> 00:47:01.119 generation of ship building. Is that 00:46:57.920 --> 00:47:04.000 overly dramatic? I don't think so. We're 00:47:01.119 --> 00:47:05.440 still struggling to build ships on time, 00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:07.358 on budget, and that's something we 00:47:05.440 --> 00:47:09.358 absolutely need to fix going forward. 00:47:07.358 --> 00:47:11.838 This past March, we spoke with Admiral 00:47:09.358 --> 00:47:14.318 Mike Gilde at the Pentagon. He is the 00:47:11.838 --> 00:47:16.719 chief of naval operations and is 00:47:14.318 --> 00:47:19.759 responsible for building, maintaining, 00:47:16.719 --> 00:47:22.799 and equipping the entire US Navy. Is the 00:47:19.760 --> 00:47:26.079 Navy in crisis? No, the Navy is not in 00:47:22.800 --> 00:47:28.720 crisis. The Navy is out on point every 00:47:26.079 --> 00:47:31.680 single day. Is it being outpaced by 00:47:28.719 --> 00:47:34.399 China? No. Our Navy is still in a 00:47:31.679 --> 00:47:36.879 position to prevail, but um that's not 00:47:34.400 --> 00:47:38.720 blind confidence. We are concerned with 00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:41.358 the trajectory that China's on with 00:47:38.719 --> 00:47:43.679 China's behavior, but we are in a good 00:47:41.358 --> 00:47:45.838 position right now uh if we did ever get 00:47:43.679 --> 00:47:48.519 into a fight against them. How would you 00:47:45.838 --> 00:47:51.119 describe what China has been able to do 00:47:48.519 --> 00:47:53.440 militarily over the last 20 years? The 00:47:51.119 --> 00:47:55.680 most alarming thing is the growth of not 00:47:53.440 --> 00:47:57.838 only their conventional forces but also 00:47:55.679 --> 00:48:00.639 their strategic nuclear forces, their 00:47:57.838 --> 00:48:03.759 cyber capability, their space capability 00:48:00.639 --> 00:48:06.400 and how they are using that to force 00:48:03.760 --> 00:48:08.880 other nations uh navies out of certain 00:48:06.400 --> 00:48:11.280 areas in the South China Sea. Instead of 00:48:08.880 --> 00:48:13.760 recognizing international law, they want 00:48:11.280 --> 00:48:17.200 to control where those goods flow and 00:48:13.760 --> 00:48:19.119 how. What lessons did the US Navy learn 00:48:17.199 --> 00:48:21.118 from some of the ship building mistakes 00:48:19.119 --> 00:48:23.440 of the last 20 years? I think one of the 00:48:21.119 --> 00:48:26.960 things that we learned uh was that we 00:48:23.440 --> 00:48:29.920 need to uh have the design well in place 00:48:26.960 --> 00:48:32.240 before we begin bending metal. And so we 00:48:29.920 --> 00:48:35.200 are going back uh to the past to what we 00:48:32.239 --> 00:48:38.239 did in the 80s and the '9s. The Navy has 00:48:35.199 --> 00:48:40.318 the lead. There is a tendency among the 00:48:38.239 --> 00:48:42.799 great powers to look at each other's 00:48:40.318 --> 00:48:45.279 naval buildups with deep suspicion. 00:48:42.800 --> 00:48:48.079 Toshi Yoshihara of the Center for 00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:50.480 Strategic and Budgetary Assessments may 00:48:48.079 --> 00:48:52.960 know more than any scholar in the West 00:48:50.480 --> 00:48:56.960 about China's Navy. China will have 00:48:52.960 --> 00:48:59.838 about 440 ships by 2030 and that's 00:48:56.960 --> 00:49:02.639 according to the Pentagon. Why is China 00:48:59.838 --> 00:49:05.119 able to build more warships more quickly 00:49:02.639 --> 00:49:06.719 than the US? China has clearly invested 00:49:05.119 --> 00:49:09.280 in this defense industrial 00:49:06.719 --> 00:49:11.199 infrastructure to produce these ships, 00:49:09.280 --> 00:49:13.559 which allows them to produce multiple 00:49:11.199 --> 00:49:16.159 ships simultaneously, essentially 00:49:13.559 --> 00:49:19.040 outbuilding many of the Western navies 00:49:16.159 --> 00:49:20.719 combined. China's Navy piggybacks on a 00:49:19.039 --> 00:49:23.519 booming commercial ship building 00:49:20.719 --> 00:49:26.480 industry kept afloat by generous state 00:49:23.519 --> 00:49:29.440 subsidies, inexpensive materials, and 00:49:26.480 --> 00:49:32.318 cheap labor. In the United States, it's 00:49:29.440 --> 00:49:34.280 a different story. After the Cold War 00:49:32.318 --> 00:49:36.719 ended, the ship building industry 00:49:34.280 --> 00:49:39.440 consolidated and many of the yards where 00:49:36.719 --> 00:49:41.439 ships were both built and maintained 00:49:39.440 --> 00:49:43.358 closed down. What do you see when you 00:49:41.440 --> 00:49:44.800 see China's ship building program? It's 00:49:43.358 --> 00:49:47.598 very robust. Do we have enough 00:49:44.800 --> 00:49:49.599 shipyards? No. I wish that we had more 00:49:47.599 --> 00:49:51.760 commercial shipyards. Over my career, 00:49:49.599 --> 00:49:54.318 we've gone from more than 30 shipyards 00:49:51.760 --> 00:49:56.640 down to about seven that we rely upon a 00:49:54.318 --> 00:49:59.358 day-to-day basis to build ships. One of 00:49:56.639 --> 00:50:01.279 those yards is run by Huntington Les 00:49:59.358 --> 00:50:06.078 Industries, which built the 00:50:01.280 --> 00:50:06.079 state-of-the-art new Ford class aircraft 00:50:07.639 --> 00:50:14.318 carrier. After controlled explosions in 00:50:10.920 --> 00:50:17.119 2021 to prove it could withstand combat, 00:50:14.318 --> 00:50:19.920 the Ford got closer to deployment, 6 00:50:17.119 --> 00:50:22.720 years late and billions of dollars over 00:50:19.920 --> 00:50:25.200 budget. The Navy's not just struggling 00:50:22.719 --> 00:50:27.399 to build new ships on time. According to 00:50:25.199 --> 00:50:30.239 the Government Accountability Office, or 00:50:27.400 --> 00:50:33.039 GAO, there's a multi-year backlog 00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:35.118 repairing the ships in the fleet. Our 00:50:33.039 --> 00:50:37.318 maintenance backlog is one of the 00:50:35.119 --> 00:50:40.720 primary things that I'm working on to 00:50:37.318 --> 00:50:45.119 correct. So, just three years ago, we 00:50:40.719 --> 00:50:47.519 had 7700 delay days. That is extra days 00:50:45.119 --> 00:50:50.119 in a shipyard by ships when they weren't 00:50:47.519 --> 00:50:53.358 operational. We have cut that down to 00:50:50.119 --> 00:50:56.318 3,000. We are not satisfied. Maintenance 00:50:53.358 --> 00:50:57.679 delays mean sailors can't come home 00:50:56.318 --> 00:51:00.079 because the ship that's supposed to 00:50:57.679 --> 00:51:02.558 replace them is not ready. It means 00:51:00.079 --> 00:51:04.720 longer deployments. It means away from 00:51:02.559 --> 00:51:06.800 your family more. That's a big strain on 00:51:04.719 --> 00:51:09.118 the workforce. The more ships that we 00:51:06.800 --> 00:51:11.119 can have available to send at sea 00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:13.760 alleviates many of those problems that 00:51:11.119 --> 00:51:17.119 you pointed out. Sailors join the Navy 00:51:13.760 --> 00:51:19.119 to see the world. And so it's my job to 00:51:17.119 --> 00:51:21.519 make sure that those maintenance delays 00:51:19.119 --> 00:51:23.838 go to zero and we can get those ships to 00:51:21.519 --> 00:51:26.400 sea as quickly as possible. In the last 00:51:23.838 --> 00:51:28.480 year alone, at least 10 sailors assigned 00:51:26.400 --> 00:51:30.800 to ships undergoing maintenance or 00:51:28.480 --> 00:51:34.318 working at maintenance facilities have 00:51:30.800 --> 00:51:37.280 died by suicide. It is a problem that 00:51:34.318 --> 00:51:39.599 we're taking very, very seriously. And 00:51:37.280 --> 00:51:41.760 down to every leader in our Navy, 00:51:39.599 --> 00:51:43.599 everybody has a responsibility to look 00:51:41.760 --> 00:51:45.760 out for each other, take care of each 00:51:43.599 --> 00:51:48.318 other. There is no wrong door to knock 00:51:45.760 --> 00:51:50.720 on when you need help. Admiral Gilde 00:51:48.318 --> 00:51:53.838 says the US Navy's main advantage over 00:51:50.719 --> 00:51:56.799 China is America's sailors. His goal is 00:51:53.838 --> 00:51:59.199 to modernize the US fleet and have those 00:51:56.800 --> 00:52:02.640 sailors serving alongside hundreds of 00:51:59.199 --> 00:52:04.719 unmanned vessels by 2045. I think 00:52:02.639 --> 00:52:07.759 unmanned is the future. And so I think 00:52:04.719 --> 00:52:08.959 that uh some 40% of our fleet in the 00:52:07.760 --> 00:52:10.880 future I believe is going to be 00:52:08.960 --> 00:52:13.838 unmanned. Are these like underwater 00:52:10.880 --> 00:52:16.160 drones? Some of them are highly capable, 00:52:13.838 --> 00:52:18.639 capable of delivering mines and perhaps 00:52:16.159 --> 00:52:21.598 other types of weapons. Admiral Gilde is 00:52:18.639 --> 00:52:24.480 talking about the Orca, an extra-large 00:52:21.599 --> 00:52:26.400 unmanned undersea vehicle. Can you say 00:52:24.480 --> 00:52:28.400 what it will do or is that classified? 00:52:26.400 --> 00:52:30.559 Well, uh, at a minimum, it'll have a 00:52:28.400 --> 00:52:32.559 clandestine mine laying capability. So, 00:52:30.559 --> 00:52:35.680 it'll be done in a way that is very 00:52:32.559 --> 00:52:39.359 secretive, uh, but very effective. But 00:52:35.679 --> 00:52:41.838 the GAO reports that it's already a 00:52:39.358 --> 00:52:44.558 quarter of a billion dollars over budget 00:52:41.838 --> 00:52:47.119 and three years behind schedule. Uh that 00:52:44.559 --> 00:52:49.040 particular platform is behind schedule. 00:52:47.119 --> 00:52:51.838 It's the first of a kind. When it 00:52:49.039 --> 00:52:54.079 delivers, I see a very high return on 00:52:51.838 --> 00:52:57.679 investment from that particular platform 00:52:54.079 --> 00:53:01.519 because because uh it will be among the 00:52:57.679 --> 00:53:03.919 most lethal and stealthy platforms uh in 00:53:01.519 --> 00:53:06.719 the arsenal of the US military. The 00:53:03.920 --> 00:53:10.240 Navy's total budget request for fiscal 00:53:06.719 --> 00:53:13.679 year 2024 is over a quarter of a 00:53:10.239 --> 00:53:17.679 trillion dollars, an 11 billion increase 00:53:13.679 --> 00:53:20.639 from last year. The focus is on China. 00:53:17.679 --> 00:53:22.799 The US defense posture is viewed as 00:53:20.639 --> 00:53:24.879 aggressive by the Chinese. The foreign 00:53:22.800 --> 00:53:27.280 minister just said, "Look, stop the 00:53:24.880 --> 00:53:29.440 containment. This may lead to conflict." 00:53:27.280 --> 00:53:32.280 Perhaps the Chinese minister doesn't 00:53:29.440 --> 00:53:35.838 like the fact that the US Navy is 00:53:32.280 --> 00:53:37.760 operating in collaboration with dozens 00:53:35.838 --> 00:53:40.239 of navies around the world to ensure 00:53:37.760 --> 00:53:44.000 that the Maritime Commons remains free 00:53:40.239 --> 00:53:46.318 and open for all nations. The Chinese 00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:48.079 want to dictate those terms and so they 00:53:46.318 --> 00:53:50.318 don't like our presence, but our 00:53:48.079 --> 00:53:53.440 presence is not intended to be 00:53:50.318 --> 00:53:55.519 provocative. It's intended to assure and 00:53:53.440 --> 00:53:57.760 to reassure allies and partners around 00:53:55.519 --> 00:54:00.159 the world that those sea lanes do remain 00:53:57.760 --> 00:54:03.720 open. The global economy literally 00:54:00.159 --> 00:54:03.719 floats on seawater.