[00:00] Who are the people?
[00:01] >> Who who are the modern? Yes. Who are who
[00:03] are the descendants? So, we know and I
[00:05] believe and I agree with you as a
[00:07] Christian that God promised
[00:09] >> this land from modern day Iraq to modern
[00:13] day Egypt to this people, the Jews, to
[00:16] Abram's actually not to the to Abram's
[00:18] descendants as it says in Genesis 15.
[00:21] Who are his descendants now? And how do
[00:23] we know who they are?
[00:24] >> I think they're the Jews. And we know
[00:26] who they are because they've always been
[00:27] a Jewish people. There has been an
[00:29] unbroken line of Jewish people and
[00:31] they've lived in this land for 3,800
[00:35] years. Sometimes not very many of them
[00:37] because they were chased out all over
[00:39] the world. They were hunted down. They
[00:40] were almost annihilated during the
[00:42] Holocaust. They came back to this day.
[00:45] Tucker, they represent, you know, how
[00:46] many Jews there are in the whole world.
[00:47] >> Please, I understand. First of all, the
[00:50] greatest genocide of Jews no one ever
[00:52] mentions was by the Romans where they
[00:54] were literally banned from Jerusalem for
[00:57] 500 years.
[00:58] >> Yeah. Of course.
[00:59] >> And and it's all awful. And I'm opposed
[01:01] to all of that. I'm opposed to mass
[01:02] killing of anybody. Period. I'm opposed
[01:04] to
[01:05] >> you say that.
[01:06] >> I mean it.
[01:07] >> Yeah.
[01:07] >> And I hope I believe that.
[01:10] >> My question is, and it's not a bumper
[01:13] sticker answer. It's a sincere answer.
[01:14] How do we know? Because what you're
[01:17] >> saying is that certain people have a
[01:19] title to a highly contested region. They
[01:22] own it in some deep sense.
[01:24] >> So I think it's fair to ask, who are
[01:26] they? And how do we know? So the current
[01:29] prime minister's ancestors weren't from
[01:31] here within recorded history. They're he
[01:33] has no deed. BB Netanyahu on one side is
[01:36] families from Poland. They're from
[01:38] Eastern Europe. So how do we know that
[01:40] he has a connection to the people
[01:43] who God promised the land to Abram's
[01:45] descendants? How do we know that? Well,
[01:47] if you take the genealogies that come
[01:49] not only from the Old but the New
[01:50] Testament, you see that there is a
[01:52] historical connection through the
[01:54] entirety of the Old and the New
[01:56] Testament that details the Jewish
[01:59] connection to this land.
[02:00] >> Does that include his family? How do we
[02:02] know that if his family scattered?
[02:05] >> But how do we know it's the same people?
[02:07] >> No. Why is that crazy? If if if you say
[02:10] to me if they speak the same language,
[02:12] if they worship the same God, if they
[02:13] follow the same Bible, if they follow
[02:16] the same cultures and traditions and
[02:18] they always pray next year in Jerusalem
[02:20] and they pray for the peace of Jerusalem
[02:22] and they pray facing toward Jerusalem,
[02:24] does that not give you a little bit of a
[02:26] clue as to who they are? Let's go
[02:27] through those things because I would
[02:28] like to have a rational This is the
[02:30] conversation I've wanted. Bless you.
[02:31] Thank you for doing this.
[02:33] >> Um, let's just go through those things.
[02:35] >> Okay. So, one of the things I admire
[02:37] most about Israel is they resurrected a
[02:38] dead language in 1948. Good for them.
[02:42] >> Well, they really didn't resurrect it.
[02:44] It It was existent.
[02:46] >> Okay. I'm not That's not That's a
[02:47] compliment. I'm not slight no. But it is
[02:49] the first time in all of human history
[02:50] that a language has survived through
[02:53] this length of time. It's it's it's I
[02:56] would call it You might not, but I would
[02:57] call it a miracle. One of many,
[03:00] >> okay, that you can attribute to this.
[03:02] >> I think it's wonderful as someone who
[03:03] loves language. Netanyahu's parents did
[03:05] not speak Hebrew. Okay? They didn't live
[03:08] in this region. Netanyahu, the founders
[03:11] of this country were mostly secular.
[03:13] Some of them were avowed atheists. They
[03:14] were not praying for the peace of
[03:16] Jerusalem. They weren't praying at all
[03:17] because they didn't believe in God.
[03:19] >> There's no genealogy linking their
[03:21] families to the people of this land
[03:24] 3,000 years ago. They're none. So, how
[03:27] do we know since they didn't share a
[03:29] language? They didn't share a religion.
[03:31] They had no religion whatsoever.
[03:34] How do we know that they had a right to
[03:37] come here from Eastern Europe? And
[03:40] >> but they were scattered.
[03:42] >> They were scattered to Eastern Europe.
[03:44] They were scattered all over the world.
[03:46] There were many in Ethiopia. They were
[03:47] in Russia. They were in Poland.
[03:49] >> They were throughout Asia.
[03:52] >> Jews were all over the place, but they
[03:53] were still Jews. But they were still
[03:56] Jews.
[03:56] >> Okay. So, let me get to the nub of the
[03:58] question since again, a lot is at stake.
[04:00] A lot of money is at stake. land is very
[04:02] valuable.
[04:04] Uh, Israel has a lot of resources. By
[04:05] the way, if you're accused of a crime,
[04:06] you can hide here. That's pretty good
[04:08] passport to have. It's a good thing,
[04:10] right? So, who's entitled to it? I don't
[04:14] understand. And you're very discouraged
[04:16] in the United States from asking this
[04:18] question for some reason. It's a totally
[04:19] rational discourage.
[04:20] >> No, you're not discouraging. Others do.
[04:22] You're like the only person I have this
[04:23] conversation with. Every be like, "Shut
[04:24] up, Nazi."
[04:26] >> It It's a foundational question. Are you
[04:28] speaking of an ethnic group or a
[04:31] religious group?
[04:33] >> Well, I think you're looking at for many
[04:35] people it is religious. There are people
[04:37] who may not have a deep religious
[04:40] connection to Judaism, but they're still
[04:42] Jews.
[04:42] >> Okay? So, it's it's an ethnic category.
[04:44] >> It is ethnic, but it is also religious.
[04:46] It is rooted in religion. You can't take
[04:49] it out of it. Now, that means
[04:50] >> then how can an atheist
[04:52] >> Well, I will tell you this. There are
[04:53] some people who say, "I'm Christian."
[04:54] They never go to church. They never
[04:56] pray. They never read their Bible. They
[04:58] don't tithe.
[04:59] >> But they're not entitled to citizenship
[05:00] on the basis of that. They're not
[05:02] entitled to they still call themselves
[05:04] Christian. Even though they identify
[05:07] here's the difference. You're saying
[05:08] that people who have this identification
[05:14] have a deed to a huge chunk of land on
[05:18] the Mediterranean. Okay. So there's, you
[05:21] know, it's a it's a right. You keep
[05:23] telling me it's a right. And so it's
[05:25] totally fair to say if you come to my
[05:27] house and say I've got the title to your
[05:28] house, I get to ask, may I see it?
[05:31] Where'd you get it? And that's exactly
[05:33] what happened here. People from Europe,
[05:34] Eastern Europe, came here. In a lot of
[05:36] cases, atheists and kicked out a lot of
[05:40] people who lived here land.
[05:41] >> Well, they did not just throw people
[05:44] out.
[05:44] >> They bought a lot of land. There's no
[05:45] question about that. Buy a lot of land,
[05:47] >> but they also in 1948 kicked out a lot
[05:50] of people in the war.
[05:52] >> It was a war. I agree. I'm not, look,
[05:54] I'm not want to relitigate the history.
[05:56] I'm just saying it's a fact.
[05:57] >> Okay?
[05:57] >> Including a lot of Christians, a lot of
[05:59] Christians
[06:01] >> uh wound up fleeing
[06:02] >> and they lost their homes and they've
[06:04] never been allowed back. And all of this
[06:06] was justified on the basis of this
[06:08] identity that forms that is the ticket
[06:12] to the right that you keep referring to.
[06:14] So my question is very simple. I'm going
[06:15] to wait patiently for an answer. Does
[06:17] this right derive from religious
[06:19] affiliation
[06:20] or from genetics? And I would say it's
[06:22] both. But I would also say that when you
[06:24] said the Christians were kicked out,
[06:26] Tucker, Christianity is growing in
[06:28] Israel.
[06:29] >> Okay. But and and there is a big lie
[06:31] that goes out there. But but no, let me
[06:33] finish this because I I keep hearing
[06:34] that Christians are
[06:37] >> really not treated well in Israel.
[06:38] That's just simply that's a lie.
[06:40] >> Well, there are lots there are lots of
[06:42] different
[06:42] >> There were 34,000 Christians in Israel
[06:44] in 1948. There are 184,000 Christians
[06:47] here today.
[06:47] >> And by Israel, what are you counting?
[06:50] You talking about the land?
[06:52] >> What? What? What territory? Are you
[06:54] counting? You're counting Israel proper?
[06:56] Are you counting the West Bank as well
[06:58] and Gaza? I mean, what what do you when
[07:00] you say Israel, those numbers apply to
[07:02] what land mass?
[07:03] >> It would be in Israel proper. Okay,
[07:05] there 184,000.
[07:07] >> Now, I'll tell you where Christians are
[07:09] not doing very well. They're not doing
[07:11] very well in the Muslim control
[07:13] countries. There's almost no Christians
[07:16] in Qatar, for example, except those who
[07:18] live in the Christian ghetto who are the
[07:20] service workers.
[07:21] >> I'm sorry. Look, I don't want to argue
[07:23] with you. There there are many more
[07:24] Christians in Qatar than there are in
[07:25] Israel.
[07:26] >> That's not true.
[07:27] >> What it actually is true and I refer you
[07:28] to Wikipedia, Mr. Ambassador.
[07:30] >> Wikipedia that
[07:31] >> I refer you to the government of Qar,
[07:33] the government of Israel. These are
[07:34] knowable facts. Like I'm And I'm in
[07:36] Jordan by the numbers are down. In
[07:38] Syria, the numbers are down. In Lebanon,
[07:39] the numbers are down. just tell you that
[07:41] >> about twice as many Christians,
[07:42] >> but they live in the enclave. They are
[07:45] not native Qataris.
[07:47] >> Okay, we're we're mixing so many
[07:49] different categories here. I'm just
[07:50] saying I get things wrong all the time.
[07:51] You've just gotten something wrong. And
[07:52] I think it's important to acknowledge
[07:53] it. There are many more Christians in
[07:55] Qar than there are in Israel. Fact.
[07:56] >> How many?
[07:58] >> Now, you caught me. I don't know. I
[08:00] could look at my phone, but I was just
[08:01] there and there many more like whatever.
[08:03] But I just want to get to the point
[08:06] that forms the basis of this whole
[08:08] conversation which is who has a right to
[08:11] the land.
[08:12] >> Yeah.
[08:12] >> And you said it's a mixture of religion
[08:14] and ethnicity because as I noted and you
[08:17] agree many of the founders maybe the
[08:19] majority of the founders of modern
[08:20] Israel did not believe in God at all. So
[08:22] they were not religious Jews. They
[08:23] weren't religious at all. They were
[08:24] atheists. They said they were atheists.
[08:26] I believe them.
[08:28] >> So that suggests it's ethnic. But it's
[08:30] also true, as you well know, because
[08:32] there was a famous court case about
[08:33] this, that ethnic Jews who convert to
[08:36] Christianity do not have the right of
[08:38] return. That was settled by the Israeli
[08:40] Supreme Court.
[08:42] I'm very confused. So, that would
[08:44] suggest it's not ethnicity because you
[08:47] invalidate your Jewishness by converting
[08:49] to Christianity.
[08:50] >> There are a number of Messianic Jews who
[08:52] live in Israel,
[08:54] who are here. I'm aware of this. I'm
[08:56] aware of that number, but you're not
[08:57] contesting what I'm saying because it's
[08:59] a very famous court case.
[09:02] >> The right of return has to do with your
[09:04] mother, your grandmother. It has to do
[09:06] with family ties. Ethnic
[09:08] >> there is a lot of sure ethnicity is a
[09:10] big part of the right of return to make
[09:12] aliyah to come to Israel to live here.
[09:16] Then if I if both of your parents are
[09:18] Jewish and you have an ethnic right to
[09:21] land, you are one of Abram's
[09:22] descendants,
[09:24] but you convert to Christianity. How is
[09:26] it you don't have the right to return?
[09:27] I'm totally confused.
[09:28] >> But I know a number of people who have
[09:30] returned as Christians, but have Jewish
[09:33] history.
[09:34] >> Are you saying that Jews who convert to
[09:37] Christianity have a right, a legal right
[09:41] to return? Cuz I
[09:42] >> I know that they do. Whether when you
[09:45] say do they have a right to return do
[09:47] they prove
[09:48] >> it's a it's a legal category as in any
[09:50] government by their family history their
[09:53] grandmother their mother and there are
[09:55] many aspects of that
[09:57] >> I've read it I think I know that these
[09:59] were people who were Christian and they
[10:01] came here made aliyah they had Jewish
[10:04] blood Jewish history they were Christian
[10:08] messianic but they came here and they
[10:11] were welcomed here
[10:12] >> and they were given full legal rights
[10:14] and a passport. So, so clearly
[10:17] >> that's not it's not true that you
[10:19] invalidate your right of return by
[10:21] converting to Christianity. That's just
[10:22] false.
[10:23] >> I'm not aware of that. I I know that
[10:25] there are a number of Christians here. I
[10:27] go to church with Christians every week
[10:28] here.
[10:29] >> Of course. But do you have a right to
[10:31] come and say I am an ethnic Jew even
[10:34] though I practice Christianity.
[10:36] Therefore, I have every bit as much
[10:38] right to move into a settlement in the
[10:40] West Bank or into East Jerusale or
[10:42] anywhere I want, Galilee, anywhere
[10:46] because I am returning to the land of my
[10:48] forefathers of a legal right in the
[10:50] state of Israel even though I've
[10:51] converted to Christianity. You're saying
[10:52] that's true.
[10:53] >> I'm saying I know people have done it.
[10:55] Now, can can I tell you what the law
[10:57] specifically is? I'm not sure because
[10:59] >> Well, it's really a Christian. I'm not I
[11:01] don't have any Jewish roots, so
[11:03] therefore I cannot quote you the law. If
[11:05] you want me to do that, I'll look at
[11:07] >> Well, it really matters because you're
[11:08] saying, in fact, people in the United
[11:10] States are being called anti-semites.
[11:14] >> A lot of them, including me, because
[11:17] they somehow don't believe that Israel
[11:19] has a right to this land.
[11:21] >> Do you think Israel has a right to this
[11:23] land?
[11:23] >> No. You haven't defined what the land
[11:25] is, and you haven't defined who Israel
[11:27] is, so I really don't know.
[11:28] >> No, it is the land they're living in
[11:30] now. The borders that they have,
[11:31] >> the borders are moving. The borders have
[11:33] moved in the last year.
[11:35] >> What do you mean the borders have moved
[11:36] in the last
[11:36] >> Well, they they are the 1967 borders.
[11:39] I'm including, you know, the the West
[11:41] >> East Jerusalem and Judea and Samaria.
[11:44] >> What are the borders of Judea and
[11:46] Samaria?
[11:47] >> Well, you basically take the Jordan
[11:50] River and it's west of the Jordan River
[11:54] to the Mediterranean Sea to the Lebanon
[11:56] border and uh Israel did have control of
[11:59] the Sinai. They gave that to Egypt. They
[12:02] had control of it,
[12:03] >> right?
[12:03] >> They gave it away in 1979 in the peace
[12:06] agreement.
[12:07] >> Um,
[12:08] >> but okay. So, we whatever you call it,
[12:11] the land that was taken from Jordan in
[12:14] 1967, you call it Judea and Samaria.
[12:16] There's a significance to that that I
[12:19] >> don't fully understand. I'm against it.
[12:20] I don't know what it it's 80% of the
[12:24] Bible happened in Judea and Samaria. But
[12:26] we've also established that the Bible
[12:27] gives Jews the right to occupy the land
[12:30] from the Nile to the Euphrates. So I'm
[12:32] very confused by why we've shrunk the
[12:35] land and why we're dis
[12:37] >> Israel has shrunk the land. They have
[12:40] made that decision. That's why they gave
[12:41] away.
[12:42] >> Now my land given away a lot of things.
[12:48] >> Abram's descendants are the ones who
[12:49] have the right to have this land.
[12:51] Correct.
[12:52] >> Yes.
[12:52] >> Okay. Why don't we do genetic testing on
[12:55] everybody in the land and find out who
[12:56] Abram's descendants are? It's really
[12:58] simple. We've cracked the human genome.
[13:00] We can do that. Why don't we do that?
[13:02] Would you be against doing that?
[13:05] >> I I have no idea what that would prove.
[13:08] I mean, maybe it would be
[13:09] >> What do you mean what it would? It would
[13:11] prove who Abram's descendants are and
[13:12] who has a a right to live here and who
[13:15] doesn't according to the theology that
[13:17] you yourself just explained. And so I'm
[13:20] very confused as to why we don't do
[13:22] that. If you believe the theology that
[13:24] you've just explained to me, would we do
[13:26] that all over the world? Everybody,
[13:28] >> this is the only country in the world
[13:29] that you've said has
[13:32] this covenant with God, that this people
[13:34] have a moral and legal right to the
[13:37] land.
[13:37] >> What about people who convert to
[13:39] Judaism? Would they have a right?
[13:40] >> Well, you've just
[13:43] you've just said to Judaism, so you just
[13:46] told me
[13:47] >> they can make aliyah. They may not have
[13:48] you just told me that it doesn't matter.
[13:52] You told me moments ago, trying to keep
[13:54] track,
[13:55] >> okay,
[13:55] >> that it doesn't matter whether or not
[13:57] you believe in God or whether or not you
[13:59] practice Torah Judaism or rabbitic
[14:01] Judaism, which is something else that I
[14:03] I don't even know if we should I don't
[14:05] even know what that means. But it
[14:08] doesn't matter whether you're quote a
[14:09] religious Jew or not. What matters is
[14:12] that you are part of the Jewish people
[14:16] to whom God gave this land that extends
[14:19] from the Nile to the Euphrates. And so
[14:21] if you believe that, wouldn't you want
[14:23] to know with a burning passion who those
[14:26] people are? And because of science, we
[14:28] can now know who those people are.
[14:31] >> So why aren't we finding out?
[14:34] >> I guess you could propose a DNA test for
[14:36] everybody who comes here, everybody who
[14:38] lives here. But the point
[14:39] >> I'm comfortable with secular nation
[14:41] states where it's none of this is done
[14:43] on the basis of blood. I'm uncomfortable
[14:46] with that. I'll just say that. But there
[14:47] are people who may not have bloodlines
[14:49] but who have converted to Judaism.
[14:52] Are they going to be able to live here?
[14:53] Are you going to kick them out?
[14:54] >> By your standards, they can't live here
[14:56] because you just said that they have a
[14:59] right to live here because God gave them
[15:01] the land because they're the descendants
[15:03] of Abram.
[15:03] >> They're the descendants of Abraham. But
[15:05] if they're the spiritual descendants of
[15:07] Abraham and they've now decided that
[15:09] they're converting to Judaism,
[15:13] then do they have a right to live in
[15:14] Israel? I well there's a whole legal
[15:17] literature in Israel on that question
[15:20] and my understanding is that certain
[15:23] types of modern Judaism qualify a person
[15:26] and other types don't is that your
[15:29] understanding
[15:32] >> I don't believe that people converted
[15:34] and I could have this wrong but I know
[15:36] people who've faced this personally know
[15:37] people I don't believe people who've
[15:39] converted in a reform synagogue have the
[15:43] right of return. I I don't think that is
[15:45] because I know people who've married
[15:46] into Jewish families and they find out
[15:48] they don't have the right of return. So
[15:51] that is perplexing to me.
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