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>> Yeah, I was listening to Tim. First of
all, hello.
>> What's up?
>> Good to see you, my friend.
>> Great to see you.
>> Uh, we were listening to Tim Dylan. I I
was listening to on the way over here
and he was talking about uh Anna Paulina
Luna and Tim Bchett and Trump. They're
all talking about the UAP disclosures
and like why now? Like what are they
doing? Like why are they distracting us
with this? Timberchet said that whatever
they're going to release it will be
indigestible.
>> What does that mean?
>> Right.
>> Indigestible as in or well then it
doesn't mean that it's real then.
>> Well, I think it means that it'll be so
crazy if it's real. So crazy. He's the
one that's been saying that there's
these confirmed bases under the ocean,
that there's these specific locations. I
think you talked you're shaking your
head. You don't believe a word of it.
>> No.
>> How come?
>> I think I think it's true that there
look,
it's completely implausible that there
aren't other species,
>> right?
>> Completely implausible.
>> Just the vastness of what we're dealing
with. So the real question is like why
haven't we encountered people or those
things those beings,
>> right?
>> And it's probably because they just they
have bigger fish to fry, you know? So by
the time that we meet them and they meet
us, we're we're going to kind of be at
the edge of like we've we've kind of
been there done that on our own planet
and then we've kind of like developed
the technology I guess to get beyond it.
Um but somewhere along the way there
must have been a few just mathematically
impossible. So then the question is, is
it buried? Or were people confused when
it first came here? Like if you had a
spaceship land in like the 1800s,
>> right?
>> What would people have done? They would
have just freaked out. They wouldn't
have understood it. Maybe they would
have buried it. Depending on where it
was, maybe they started to pray to it,
>> right?
>> And you would have just moved on. And
then that isn't documented in history.
So,
>> but it is.
>> But how?
>> It is. There's a lot of it documented in
history.
>> Oh, you mean like hieroglyphics and like
monuments?
>> Well, the book of Ezekiel. The book of
Ezekiel goes in depth about some sort of
a UFO encounter that Ezekiel
experiences,
>> right?
>> Where it's a wheel within a wheel and a
a cloud with fire flashing forth
continually in the midst of a cloud as
it were gleaming metal and from the
midst of it came the likeness of four
living creatures and the creatures
darted to and fro like the appearance of
a flash of lightning. This is all in the
Bible. Um it's also in the Mahabarada.
Um they they talk about vaymanas these
flying crafts and
>> I think it's entirely possible that we
have been visited periodically
>> and that we are we have been monitored
and that we are monitored.
>> I agree
>> currently.
>> I agree.
>> And if I was going to hide, I would hide
in the ocean.
>> Well, to be honest, as I get older, I'm
convinced
>> we're basically in some form of a
simulation. There's like all these
little ingredients
>> that if you start to see these little
clues, you're like,
>> they all seem so odd in isolation and
then when you put them together, I feel
like a crazy person. So, I ignore
myself,
>> right?
>> But I wonder like why did this happen?
Like yesterday, I was um at a dinner in
LA before I came to see you. And um I
told this very interesting story. Well,
or I thought it was interesting at the
time. Um
you know that like so in 2000, right? If
you think of like what happened in tech
since 2000, so the last 26 years,
people can give you all kinds of like
fancy theories,
but there's just like this weird
word that's been at the center of every
single technological revolution for the
last 30 years. And that word is
attention. Let me explain this to you.
Google, they invent Google. What is
Google? Google is a algorithm. It's
called page rank. But if you look inside
of it, what is it? It says, "Well,
Chimath's website has five links to it.
Joe's website has two links. He's
getting more attention." Okay, Chimath's
website is more important. That's the
sum total of Google. Now, they've made
that a lot more refined and they've done
all these other fancy things,
but it's all about attention. Mhm.
>> Fast forward to 2007 89 when you know
Zuck and then when I went to work for
Zuck and we got on the scene and we're
like what do everybody what does
everybody care about? Attention. And so
what is like the Facebook algorithm?
What's the Instagram algorithm? You know
how did we construct newsfeed all around
attention? Joe had 35 likes. Jamie had
12 likes. Your thing is more important.
Let's give it more more importance
because it's seemingly meeting all these
human needs. Attention. Attention.
attention. So phase one attention, phase
two attention, and this is where I'm
like, how can this be possible? In phase
three, we're like looking at AI. And
when you look backwards four years, the
seminal paper is called attention is all
you need. It's about this word again.
And when you look inside of the core
part, if you peel out peel, you know,
apart AI,
the little brain that makes it so
capable, it's called an attention
mechanism. It's just attention. It's all
about again this idea of I'm gonna scour
all this information and I'm gonna
figure out what patterns repeat itself
and I'm just going to double down on the
stuff that I see more of because that
attention must mean it's more important.
It's more true. It's more knowledgeable
and then I think how could it be like
we're all like why is it that these
things are just repeating over and over
again? And I just get confused. I don't
I don't exactly know how to explain it.
So are there other ways in which we
should be doing things? Absolutely. Have
we even explored it? No. So then I
think, well, is this just a simulation?
Some kid in a [ __ ] in his house just
playing some simulation and we're all
just party to it and that's all he
understands is attention. I don't know.
>> I don't think it's that simple that
there's a person playing a game. But if
you break down just attention, well,
that's all of human history is paying
attention to the king, paying attention
to the war, paying attention to
resources, paying attention to who says
the thing that resonates the most with
the people. It's all about what human
beings are paying attention to.
>> I think it's part of it. Then there's
also what is actually true. And I think
sometimes what is true and what people
pay attention to are not the same thing.
>> True.
>> And sometimes the thing that you should
be paying attention to gets lost because
the thing that you are paying attention
to gets more attention because it's more
interesting and useful. That's sort of
where we are right now. We're in this
really weird phase, I think, where
you actually like should be focused on
this thing over here and instead we're
all focused on all these things over
here. or give me an example.
>> Um,
here's like a very big one. I think like
it's pretty fair to say since the last
time you and I saw each other on this
show,
the attitude towards technology, I
think, has been pretty profoundly
negative. It's kind of tilted. It's
relatively like anti-AI,
you know, anti-billionaires. It's anti-
all of this stuff.
Um, and it manifests in all of these
interesting ways. There's protests,
there's data centers, there's all of
this stuff that's happening. Um, people
are worried about job loss. All of that
stuff is real.
>> Do you want a cigar?
>> No, I'm okay. I'm okay. Um,
but what should they really be focused
upon? And I think what they should be
really focused upon is we're at the tail
end of a cycle that doesn't work
anymore, which is all about like this
tension between labor, people that do
the work, and capital, the people that
fund it and then make all the returns.
And over the last 40 years, we've
basically gone to this completely upside
down world where capital extracts all of
the upside
and labor has extracted less and less
and less and less. And all of this push
back, it manifests in AI, it manifests
in politics, it manifests in social
issues, it manifests in, you know,
Israel, whatever you want to talk about.
All of these issues, I think
symptomologically,
come from this other issue, which is we
are out of balance. This total compact
that we used to have, a liberal
democracy and a free market has totally
collapsed. And there are simple ways to
fix that, but that never gets the
attention because it's not what you want
to talk about. the attention is here,
you know, vote no to the data center.
You know, uh this model is going to take
out all the jobs. Um
you know, this social issue is really
important. That war should not be
fought. That war should be fought. All
of these things while important
distract us from what the core issue is.
And the core issue is that we as a
society, I think, are out of balance.
the the natural compact between all of
us is broken and there are some simple
ways to fix that compact. Get people
more invested, get people more engaged
in the upside, have people have a
positive some view of what's happening
and that isn't happening.
>> Well, what what simple solutions are
there to to this one very particular
issue?
>> Okay, I'll get your reaction to this.
Let's assume that you still lived in
California because I think it it tells
this example in a more extreme way.
>> Okay. Um, let's say you make a million
bucks a year, which is a lot of money,
but it it makes the it makes the point
more cleanly. Um,
you'd pay, I think, 30%
federal tax and you'd pay another 15 or
16% in state tax and Medicare tax and
all this tax. So, if you're a wage
earner,
50% of all your upside
goes to the government.
If you're a capital earnner and you make
that same million dollars via capital
gains, you pay half that tax.
Why did that happen? That happened
because in the 40s and 50s, but really
in the 60s and 70s and 80s,
what we were trying to do or what the
American government and what western
societies were trying to do was to
convince people to invest their money.
Hey Joe, go build that factory. Go hire
those people and we're going to
incentivize you to do so.
And by doing that, there was this idea
that that all of those profits that you
would get would then diffuse, right,
trickle down into everybody else. The
workers participated, everybody
participated.
But technology allows you to do more
with less and less. So now what happens
is the capital owners can acrue
infinite almost it seems like value and
the workers get less and less. But now
if you get less and less and you're
taxed more and more as a percentage of
what you own, you're going to feel
really out of sorts. You're going to be
like, why am I paying 50 cents of every
dollar? And I see these other ways where
folks are paying 25 cents on their
dollars, but their dollars are
compounding way faster and they have,
you know, hundreds of billions more of
those dollars than I have of my dollars.
If you take that example and you expand
it across society, I think people
understand that now. There's enough
information and there's enough people
talking about it where it's pretty clear
that that's happened. So the question is
how do you fix it? I think like if you
think about AI and if you believe that
we're going to get into this world of
abundance
and we're not working, what does it mean
for governments to tax our labor? There
is no labor. You're not working anymore.
I'm not working. We're doing things out
of leisure.
Why should I pay 50 cents of every
dollar? Why aren't the companies that
are going to be making trillions of
dollars, why don't they pay more?
Why isn't there, you know, an
expectation that they then help our
lived society
do better and thrive as a result of all
of that winning? That's the real
conversation that I think is
bubbling.
And I think that we're probably another
12 to 18 months where all of these other
issues are going to be important, but
they're going to be viewed for for what
they are. um they're going to get
demoted I think in importance and it's
this core structural issue it's what is
the economic relationship that we have
together as a society what is the
relationship between Joe Chamath Jamie
and all these companies and how do we
feel about a few and an evershrinking
few making more and more and more
and then how do we feel about their
ability to share that with a small
amount of people
and then what do what is the expectation
for everybody else? I think that's
mostly at the core of what's happening.
And so back to like, you know, all of
this attention that we give to these
other issues distracts from that one
because I think you can get organized to
fix this issue. You can't get
concessions on any of these issues.
>> Mhm.
>> You know, you bring up Israel, it's like
this. You bring up social issues, it's
like this. You bring up, you know,
whatever you want to bring up, people
just kind of take a side, nothing
happens. This is actually where people
are universally actually much more
aligned than you think because there's
reasonable ways. One simple way was is
you'd say, well, let's flip the taxation
model.
Corporate taxes
should exceed personal taxes. They've
never
we should have an expectation that then
corporate
actors can buy down their taxes if they
want, but if they do social good for
society. I'll give you an example. At
the industrial revolution, there's a
table like this and the leading lights
of that era, Andrew Carnegie, Nelson
Rockefeller, Jay Gould, JP Morgan,
they sat together and they said, "Guys,
this is going to benefit us this
industrial revolution.
It may not benefit everybody. What is
our responsibility? What is our
collective responsibility?"
And they allocated tasks. Carnegie went
and built libraries
all throughout the country. Rockefeller
built universities, hospitals were
built. And I think what happened is
society was like, "Wow, these are living
testaments to us doing well." And so
then they were okay with this
transition.
But if you think about it today, what
are the living tributes that, you know,
capital builds and leaves behind for
society? It's fewer and fewer.
I think that's a that's a very big
opportunity for somebody to fill it. I
think it's like especially for folks in
tech. I think if they can get themselves
organized to do that, I think we we land
in a good place. If they cannot get
themselves organized to do that and say
everyone for themselves,
I think it's going to be really
complicated. Super messy. super messy
because
>> super messy
>> that sentiment that the wealthy are
getting wealthier and the middle class
is disappearing and the poor are being
taxed into oblivion.
>> Look, an $80,000 year teacher pays 40%
tax. But if you're a multi-billionaire,
most of your wealth is not W2 wages.
It's cap gains. But there's all kinds of
ways to shelter cap gains. There's all
kinds of ways to defer. And so even
though you pay more on an absolute
dollar basis, on a percentage basis,
you're paying way way less. And all of
those tricks have been exposed.
They've all been exposed. These are all
mechanisms that were that were, you
know, invented from the 1980s to now,
right? By all the by all the banks and
all the folks that wanted to come to
folks that had wealth. And so it's it's
and it's all known. And I think people
are kind of like, "Hey, hold on a
second. This just doesn't feel fair
anymore.
>> Absolutely. But the other problem with
that is if you do tax correctly, where
does that money go? And who's managing
it? And ultimately, who's managing it is
the federal government. And they've been
shown to be completely inept at managing
your money correctly. The fraud and the
waste is off the charts. the amount of
NOS's that have insane amount of funds
at their disposal. I mean all this is
exposed by Doge, right? And you realize
like how much fraud and waste there is
and how much money. So the solution
being tax people more
>> that doesn't sit with a lot of people
because it's like well where where is it
going and who's managing it? If if the
federal government was being forced to
handle money the same way a private
company does, if it was all out in the
open, everything was exposed, they would
have gone bankrupt a long time ago. They
would have gone under a long time ago.
There's no way they would have been
allowed to function the way they are.
The people that are managing that money
would have all been put in jail. There's
not a chance in hell that
giving them more money is going to solve
anything. They're going to find more
ways to put more of that money into
NOS's that puts more of that money into
Democratic coffers and Republican
coffers. They're going to figure out a
way to funnel that money around where
it's not going to benefit people. I
mean, a good example of that is like
where let's let's look at the LA fire
thing for instance. All right. So the LA
fire fund, there's a giant fire in the
Palisades. All this money gets raised.
It's over $800 million. It goes to 200
plus different nonprofits. None of it
goes to the people,
>> right?
>> Spencer Pratt, who's running for mayor
of Los Angeles.
>> He's doing a great job, by the way.
>> [ __ ] phenomenal.
>> Those ads are those ads are fire.
>> They're so good.
>> They're fire. I He's doing and he's
doing it all out of a trailer. Yeah.
>> On his burnt out land. I mean, he's the
most righteous guy running in that
regard.
>> But just that being exposed like, okay,
we're going to help out these people.
We're going to donate money. We're going
to raise money. We're going to do some
good. We feel terrible about the people
in our community that have lost homes.
Well, what happens? Well, the same
people that you're saying we should give
more taxes to take that money and they
just give it to a bunch of nonprofits
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>> I'm not saying give more tax. What I'm
saying is,
>> right,
>> people are taxed too much. Yes,
>> corporates are not taxed enough. Flip
it. That's
>> right. But even if you do flip it and
the corporates are taxed more, where's
that money going? This is the problem.
>> I suspect that if you put the burden on
Wall Street and corporates,
um, they'd be a lot more organized and
they'd probably create a lot more change
than a diffuse electorate. Meaning like
let's just say the government spends a
trillion dollars and wastes it. I'm
generally like roughly aligned with
that.
If you waste a trillion dollars from 300
million people, it's hard to organize at
300 million people. But if you waste a
trillion dollars from 300 companies,
those companies will get their [ __ ]
together really fast. And they will
force a lot more change.
>> I would hope so, but you're still
dealing with incompetent people that are
tasked with taking care of that money.
Not just incompetent, but
>> don't get me wrong, I'm not defending
these people.
>> Decades of corruption. decades and
decades of all these mechanisms where
they can take this money and funnel it
into these NOS and these nonprofits and
all these different weird organizations
that don't seem to have accountability
for what they do with that money, that
gets real slippery.
>> Yeah. And if those people in turn make
deals with those corporations that allow
them to do certain things and push
things through that maybe they would
have difficulty doing, then you have a
different kind of a working relationship
with the same groups of people and the
same government. You just take money
from corporations and move it into a way
where the corporations ultimately
benefit from it, but yet it doesn't do
any good to the people.
>> Yeah. I mean, I can see where you're
coming from. I just think that if we go
on the track we're going down,
>> it just seems like we're we're going to
hit a crisis.
>> Yes,
>> the crisis is you can't expect people to
pay more and more and more. Again, I
agree with you. The premise is we're all
paying for a system that's broken.
>> That should that should change. But we
still continue to have to pay our taxes.
But if taxes keep going up like this at
the individual level
and we don't manage this transition to
something where we may be working less
and less, what are we getting paid to
do? And then at that point, how are we
expected to pay what? 90% of what?
>> Right?
>> 50% of what? I think people do have this
weird feeling of
dread that the people that are in
control of a lot in this country, the
the tech companies in particular,
particularly the tech companies like
Google and Facebook that are essentially
involved in data collection and then
ultimately dissemination of information
that they have acquired enormous amounts
of wealth and power and influence and
they're essentially a new form of the
government.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, are you aware of Robert
Epstein? Do you know about his work?
>> Not Robert Epste.
>> No, different guy. Different guy. Um,
Robert Epstein is a guy who specializes
in uh understanding what curated search
results do and what what Google's able
to do with in particular with curated
search results in terms of influencing
elections
>> that like say if you you have two
candidates that are running. Let's just
say let's just take LA for instance. If
and I'm not making any accusations, but
I'm saying if they wanted Karen Bass to
win and you searched Karen Bass, you
would find all these positive results.
If you searched Spencer Pratt, you would
find all these negative results. And
there's a bunch of people that are
always undecided voters and those are
the ones that you really want. They're
like, I don't know. I don't know. And
come election night, those are the
people you want to try to grab and it's
it's generally a large percentage. You
can influence an enormous percentage of
those people just with search results.
>> Yeah.
>> Where you can shift an election one way
or another.
>> I believe it.
>> Yeah. And he's demonstrated this and
shown how this is possible. Um that
freaks people out that tech companies
are in control of narratives that tech
companies can censor information
especially tech companies that work in
conjunction with the government.
>> Right?
>> This is what we found out when Elon
purchased Twitter. Right? Right. When
Elon purchased Twitter, we got all this
information from the Twitter files when
all the journalists were allowed to go
through it and they said, "Oh, this is
crazy. You've got the FBI, the CIA,
you've got all these companies, all
these government organizations that are
essentially
controlling the narrative of free speech
in the country. And they're doing it in
a way that benefits them. They're doing
it in a way that benefits what political
parties in charge at the time was the
Biden administration. and they were
allowed to do a bunch of weird [ __ ]
which which should be illegal but it's
not technically illegal.
>> And that freaks people out because
there's no real laws and rules in regard
to what they're allowed to do and what
they're not allowed to do. Like curated
search results should be illegal.
>> They're shaping attention.
>> Yes. Attention. Again, it goes back to
attention, right?
>> They're shaping attention.
>> Yeah. Um it's that's a big concern for
people. And I think then when you find
out that these people are able to amass
enormous sums of wealth and have
incredible amount of power and influence
because of this enormous enormous wealth
and this control over these tech
companies that have essentially become
the town square of the world.
>> Yeah.
>> That freaks people out and that these
very small number of people, you know,
you think of Zuckerberg, you think of
Tim Cook and I don't I don't know who
the new guy is now. Who's the name? John
John Fern,
>> right?
>> Furnace. No,
>> I forget his name.
>> Yeah.
>> Turn.
>> Turn. Turn.
>> But but that kind of thing
gives people a lot of concern, right?
It's like that these people, these
unelected people are in control of a a
giant chunk of
how the world works.
>> I think that this is the existential
question that we are dealing with.
you're going to have five or six
companies
concentrate like whatever power you
think has been concentrated up until
now. I think we're going to look back
and it's going to look like a Sunday
picnic 10 or 15 years from now because
on the one hand it's going to be an even
smaller subset and on the other hand the
capability is going to be an order or
two orders of magnitude. So can you
imagine what that must be like? It's
kind of like showing up, getting dropped
into the 1800s, and you've invented the
engine and everybody else's horse and
buggy.
>> You can just decide to your point. That
is where we're going.
>> It's even more crazy. It's like
everybody else is on a horse and buggy
and you've got an internet connection
with a cell phone.
>> Exactly. Exactly.
>> It's even more crazy.
>> Exactly. because it's what we're dealing
with with AI right now is first of all
it's already lowered children's
attention spans and it's shrinking their
capacity to acquire or absorb
information because what they're doing
now is just relying on AI to answer all
their questions for them. Now, is that
their fault? Kind of, right? Because it
doesn't have to be that way. You could
still acquire information the
oldfashioned way. You can still learn
things the right way. But a lot of kids
are just concerned with passing
examinations and getting into good
schools. And what they're doing is just
using AI and they're they're getting
better test results, but they're also
not as smart.
>> Yeah.
>> Which is really weird. Yeah.
>> It's like we're relying on it like we
you know it's like it's essentially like
replacing our mind. And that's just the
this is the beginning. This is like
these are the toddler days
>> of AI and where it's going to be a super
athlete in a few years.
>> Yeah. I think we have to figure out how
first of all
kids need to learn and I think this is
where like we have to do a better job as
parents. Kids need to learn how to be
resilient thinkers. I don't even know
what that term meant before, but I know
what it means now, which is like you
take this AI slop and you just kind of
like pass it off. And if like the
teachers and the school system aren't
trained, they're just like, "Wow, this
looks good." They have to be able to
push back. Parents need to be able to
look at this [ __ ] But then all of this
stuff, I'm just like so frustrated
because it's like one more thing that I
have to do as a parent. Like,
>> right?
>> Every time technology gets better, it's
one more thing, you know,
>> right?
>> We're going to make the world, you know,
super connected and social and all that
stuff. It sounds great to me until I
have to be the one that has to tell my
kid I can't they can't get Instagram
>> and then they're up my ass every day,
right? you know, and it's just like I
don't want to have to deal with this
stuff,
>> right?
>> I want this to be handled in a way that
just allows me to do what I want to do.
I don't want to say no to my kid. I
don't want to police his schoolwork and
make sure he's not cheating or not
learning and just like, you know,
passing off this AI slop. What am I
where are my tax dollars going? Where is
everybody else in all of this? It gets
very frustrating. And again, it goes
back to like this feeling of like, well,
is this all getting better for me or is
this kind of like not, you know, people
start to be nostalgic
>> for what it used to be because it was
just simpler, but I think that's a
different way of saying easier.
>> Well, we're just dealing with we're at
the edge of great change. Like great
change that has no real understanding of
how it turns out.
>> Yeah.
>> And I think that understandably freaks
people out. Freaks me out. It freaks me
out, but I've kind of gotten to this
place where I'm like, well, it's going
to happen.
>> Did you see this thing? Um, it's a CEO
of Verizon, Dan Schulman. He put out
this very public forecast, you know,
very smart guy, well regarded in
business. And I think he said something
like 30%
of all white collar jobs will be gone by
2030. I don't know, Jamie, maybe you can
get the exact thing, but it's something
like that.
>> That's probably optimistic. And I
thought at first my initial reaction was
like this is totally not credible. But
then I'm like hold on a second that's my
bias because I want to believe that
that's not possible
>> honestly you know and as I've gotten
older I'm I'm a little bit better now
like okay hold on a second let's weigh
the probabilities. And now I was like
man if I'm going to be fair maybe
there's a 10 20% chance of that. There's
a bunch of other outcomes that are much
better than that but that's part of the
set of outcomes that you have to
consider.
And then I was like, well, what's my
antidote to that? My and and the only
thing that I can say is don't worry,
it's going to be better.
I don't think that that's a good answer.
>> No.
>> So, there has to be like all of this
kind of goes back to look, my wife and I
have this conversation. We're like, if
it were up to us, who's who can you
trust to have some super intelligence?
Now, we're biased because we're friends
with him, but the only person that we
can trust is Elon because he seems to be
like he has a bigger like it's kind of
like he's like over there. He's like, I
need to get to Mars, right?
>> You know, and I'm going to first
terraform the moon, but then I'm going
to Mars and I'm going to build like a
[ __ ] magnetic catapult and I got to
do all this [ __ ] and so I just need this
thing. I feel like he's the least
corruptible.
He's the most independent thinking
>> and I think he's the one that has a
natural empathy for people. Then there
are folks where there's just a in insane
profit motive,
>> right?
>> They're less in control of the
businesses that they run. Those
businesses are really out over their ski
tips and the amount of money they've
gotten from Wall Street and other folks
who expect a return who will put a ton
of pressure on these folks. And if they
get there first, I don't know where the
chips fall. We don't really know. We can
kind of guess. And then you see in the
press
just enough snippets of their reactions
in certain moments where you're like,
"Hey, hold on a second. Question mark
here." You know, you see OpenAI react
one way, you see Anthropic react another
way, and you're like, "Where is this
going to end up?" And the honest answer
is nobody really knows.
So, it comes back to like we need a few
people that can organize. Those guys
need to self-organize and actually
present a really positive face. And they
need to show
why those 20% of outcomes that Dan
Schulman paints,
the truth is it's possible, but here's
why it's pro not probable,
>> but it's not in their best interest to
do that because it's in their best
interest to generate the most amount of
money possible. That's the obligation
they have to their shareholders. That's
the obligation to they have the people
that have invested money in this
company. They their obligation is not to
make sure the white collar jobs stay in
the same place that there are now.
>> That's not that's not true.
>> No.
>> No. I I actually think their incentive
should very clearly be to tell people
with details and facts why there's a
positive future. And the reason is the
following. Right now there's a vacuum.
There are no facts. And there's
fear-mongering. And then there's this
belief that this is going to be
cataclysmic to human productivity and
white color labor and all of this stuff.
>> What's people's natural reaction? Well,
today if you look at it,
>> think about AI as a very simple
equation. Energy in, intelligence out.
>> So if you want to cut the head of the
snake, what do you do? You cut off the
energy supply.
>> Right?
>> Okay.
>> If you're afraid
>> of all of this super intelligence
coming,
>> the natural thing to do would be to go
to the point of energy and unplug it.
What is the equivalent of unplugging it
today? It is to go all around the
country, find the data centers, protest
them, and get them to be mothballled.
That is an incredibly successful
strategy right now.
Today, about 40%
of all of these data centers
that get protested get mothballled.
>> You're talking about emerging data
centers.
>> Yeah. just like
>> I need to. So if you're one of these
companies, the first thing you should
realize is I need to paint a positive
vision because 40% of my energy is
getting unplugged every day.
And if that happens, my revenues will
crater and my investors will be super
pissed. So the right strategy is what is
the positive fact-based argument? And
there are some incredible examples
number one. And then number two is you
have to give people some tactical
benefit that they see because AI
differently than
search or differently than social media
there's no exchange of value. Let me let
me explain what that means. So let me
just go like so the first thing is that
if you can go and actually show people
here's an example of AI. I I I heard
about this last night. It's pretty
incredible.
You can now take pictures of a woman's
fallopian tubes and you can see
precancer
ovarian cysts and all of this stuff
cervical cancer before it forms and then
you can intervene and you can fix it so
that you know women don't get cervical
cancer. In a different example I
actually I told you about this example
when I was here before I finally got FDA
approval. Okay, there is a device now
that is allowed to be in the operating
room with you. And if you have a
cancerous lesion or a tumor inside of
your body, the most important thing when
they go to take it out is make sure you
don't leave any cancer behind. You
couldn't do it because what would happen
is you take it out. A doctor is Joe is
literally [ __ ] eyeballing it and
saying, "Yeah, they send it to a
pathologist. You get an answer in 10
days." for women with breast cancer. A
third of these women find out that they
have cancer left behind. They go back
in, they scoop some more stuff out. A
third of those women. Okay. So, I'm
like, "This is [ __ ] We can solve
this problem." It took us a long time, a
lot of money. I had to build an entire
machine imaging, all of this stuff, AI
algorithms. We had to prove it all. We
finally get approval. Okay. But you know
how hard it is to tell that story in all
of the attention that people are looking
for. It's hard. But those are positive
examples. No more breast cancer,
no more cervical cancer. A different
example is most drugs in pharma fail,
right?
And it's a very complicated problem in
pharma. It's kind of like a jigsaw
puzzle of the ultimate complexity. It's
like think of your human body as like a
Himalayan mountain range. You have to
design a drug that's an equivalent
Himalayan mountain range that plugs into
it perfectly. One millimeter off,
you grow like a fourth eye, a third
nipple, you die. You know, now you can
use computers to make sure that that
drug handin glove to your body solves
the exact problem. Couldn't do that
before. So, there's all of these body of
examples and you're probably only
hearing them superficially at best.
That should be 99% of the attention is
showing all of the constructive tactical
ways in which our lives will be better.
Your mom, your daughter, your wife, us,
Jamie, his family, everybody,
>> right?
>> That's the number one thing. Nobody
talks about it. I don't understand why.
>> Well, I think because people are
terrified of losing their jobs. So,
that's the primary concern. The primary
concern that I hear from people is that
there's so many people that are going to
school right now, college students, that
don't know if their job is going to even
exist in four years when they graduate.
>> And that's the second part of I think
what this industry has to do better.
There's a I had uh lunch with Jeffrey
Katzenberg. He told this crazy story.
I'll I'll tell you. It's like Steve Jobs
gets kicked out of Apple.
um he buys he starts next
and he buys Pixar from George Lucas, but
then he hits a rough patch and he's got
this, you know, financing issue. Kerberg
flies up,
spends time with Steve Jobs, says, "I'll
buy Pixar." Jobs says, "Absolutely not."
And then Katherenberg proposes a deal
and he's like, "Uh, how about a
three-picture deal?" Jobs says, "Okay."
He flies back and apparently all the
animators were up in arms because
they're like, "Hold on a second. Steve
Jobs is going to use these next
computers to animate this movie." Which
ultimately became, I think, Toy Story.
And they're like, "This is going to put
all of us out of a job." That perfect
argument. And people were really upset.
Roy Disney was upset. All the animators
were upset. And they all went to Mike
Eisner and they were like, "Michael, you
need to fire Katzenberg."
And they had a deal which was like,
"Look, man, you do you, but just give me
the ability to say no if I think that
this is you're about to jump off a
cliff." They talk about it and he's
like, "I got your back. Do the deal.
Make the movie." They made the movie. It
was a huge success. Fast forward 10
years, 15 years, there's 10x the number
of animators.
Now, it's a small example, but why is
that? You were able to use computers and
now all these new people were able to
come and participate in that. I get it.
It's a small example,
but I think if we had better organized
leadership and we could try to tell some
of these examples, try to go back and
document how some of these things have
actually helped people, it expanded the
pie, there's a chance. But if we don't,
I agree with you where we're going to
end up is everybody basically saying,
"Hey, hold on a second. This is crazy.
We need to stop this." That's the worst
outcome because that's when you will
have the a high risk of a dislocation.
like the worst outcome like the black
what's the black swan event, right?
Let's think about the black the black
swan event is when you get a model
that's good enough to automate a bunch
of labor
but not good enough that it can build
new drugs and prevent cancer and make
you live for 200 years and all of this
other stuff. Right? So there's like a
gap, right? And if you can stop it here
and it doesn't get to there, now you do
have the worst of all worlds. You have
this thing that kind of displaces labor.
No new things come after it because we
stop innovating.
And that's like a that's like a
nontrivial possibility now, I think.
>> No, it's a huge possibility. And then
there's also this thing that you brought
up earlier where we have this place of
abundance where no one has to work
anymore. That freaks people out.
>> I think that's a big problem. Well,
because if no one has to work anymore,
first of all, what what is your
identity, right? Because so many people
their identity is what they do. Whatever
it is, if you're a lawyer, if you're an
accountant, if you run a business,
whatever it is, this is your identity.
You know, you have built this thing, you
look forward to going there, you work at
it, you look forward to doing a good job
and getting rewarded for it. The harder
you work, the more you get paid. There's
all these incentives built in. And then
there's this again identity problem. If
all of a sudden you have universal high
income, which is what Elon always talks
about. Well, what gives people purpose
then? Like what? And also if you have a
person whose entire they're, you know,
43 years old in their entire life,
they've worked towards this idea that
the harder they work, the harder they
think, the more innovative they are, and
the the better they are at implementing
these ideas, the more they get rewarded.
And then all a sudden, that's not
necessary anymore, Mike. Time for you to
just relax and do what you want to do.
And Mike's like, "Well, this is what I
do. I this I I don't have any [ __ ]
hobbies. I I enjoy doing what I do. And
now what I do is completely useless and
now I'm on a fixed income." Even if that
fixed income is a million dollars a
year, whatever it is.
>> If all of a sudden you are in this
position where everything is being run
by computers, you feel useless. You feel
like what am I doing? I'm just I'm just
taking money. I'm on high welfare,
>> right?
>> Like what do I do?
>> Right? I think that that's a really
important question to answer. I don't
know. Like
>> some people are going to write books.
Some people are going to do art. Some
people are going to find things to do.
But
>> what do you think what do you think we
would have done if if we were
go back to the 1800s example. There was
no office culture.
You know, there's no like ladder to
climb. How did people find meaning then?
>> Well, they had jobs. People still did
things. If you're a farmer, you you had
meaning in your labor and what you did
and keeping the animals alive and your
chores. And there's people that find
great satisfaction in doing that.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, you have all these animals
that rely on you. You have people that
rely on you for the food that you
generate. There's there's meaning there.
It doesn't have to be an office to be
something that gives you purpose and
meaning. But when all that is animated,
then what happens? Because then you have
no purpose, no meaning other than
recreational activities. Now, if
everybody just starts playing chess and
doing a bunch of things that they really
enjoy, I mean, look, there's people that
would love to just play chess. Yeah.
>> You know, it's like eight people.
>> I don't know about that. I think if
people really got into it, I mean,
there's a lot of people that get
addicted to whatever their recreation
is, like golf or whatever it is. For me,
it's playing pool. You know, if you told
me I never have to make any more money,
I could just play pool all day. I might
just play pool all day. But I don't know
how many people think that way. I don't
know how many people would be able to
find meaning and purpose in a
recreational activity. There's so many
people where their entire being is
focused around productivity and
generating more wealth.
>> What about religion as a source of
meaning? Well, that that would help that
that
>> Did you see this article in the New York
Times, I think it was this weekend,
about how popular and sold out churches
have become as social constructs in New
York City.
>> It was totally fascinating. It's like
young women like dressed to the nines
going to church on a Sunday
>> for social belonging, community meaning.
I thought I was like so fascinated by
it. I was like, "Wow, that's that's
incredible." cuz like I I if I think if
you graph like just like people's use of
religion as an anchoring part of their
value system
>> over the last 40 years basically gone to
zero. You know, nobody nobody celebrates
it the way it's not a part of the
community the way that it used to be.
Maybe that's a thing that we have to
find. There has to be a renewal of some
older things and then there has to be
new things that replace it. Um what's
the Chinese answer to this? You know,
the Chinese have a very orthogonal
answer to this. If you look at how China
China is organized, it's super
interesting because they don't reward
based on the way the American system
rewards. In fact, it's like almost
orthogonal where we it's we are rewarded
with money and rewarded with sort of
fame and recognition
the system, the American capitalist
system. But if you look inside of China,
it's constantly testing who has this
judgment. And what they are rewarded
with is influence and power in a very
again it's a very specific social
contract doesn't doesn't I don't think
it's going to work in the United States
nor am I an advocate of it but it works
for them. You'll start off as like some
you know lowg person in like some small
village town somewhere and your job as
like the you know the functionary is to
do good in that community and the more
you do well you get promoted then you
get let's say to like a reasonable size
city and you get a budget and now what
happens is you actually become a little
bit like a VC like a venture capitalist
you're given a budget and you'll get a
memo and it'll say hey Joe uh we have a
priority over the next 15 years it's
batteries ries
and you have enough money, put a team on
the field. So, you go in your local
community, you find a bunch of guys,
you're like, "All right, guys. We're
going to start a battery company." And
you do it.
And let's say they're good and they're
like innovative. And what happens is in
the town beside it, that battery company
dies. Now, you kind of subsume the
capital from Jamie, right? All right,
cuz Jaime's like, "Fuck, I [ __ ] up
this thing that I wanted I was told to
do batteries." Okay, Joe, I'm just going
to align with you. And what you happens
over time is you get this um filtering
effect. And the people that are better
at meeting these long run priorities and
objectives are the ones that are
celebrated, but they're not celebrated
with, you know, Forbes articles and all
this other [ __ ] They're just
celebrated by given more responsibility.
And then eventually you get to the upper
echelons of China and what you have are
folks over a course of 40 or 50 years
who in their eyes have demonstrated
incredible prowess.
There's a version of that reward system
which is very foreign to America but
that's worked for China. Now that also
works because they're more confusion.
You know we're too individualist.
But my point is like you know there are
these different ways that we can find of
giving people meaning that don't have to
be always around money. Um but meanwhile
I think we have to answer the question
if we are expected to do less we
probably should not be taxed more.
That's I think that's like a very basic
in my mind I think that is like that
must be explored and figured out. And on
the other side, there's just a ton of
obvious mechanisms that corporate actors
can use to minimize that. And they
should find offramps, by the way. If
they want to build hospitals, they
shouldn't have to pay taxes. Like that's
a perfect example, by the way, of like
the thing in like if you look, if you
walk around New York City, there are
living tributes to corporate success
that people get benefit from every day.
The hospitals, the buildings, the
libraries, it's just everywhere.
We need a version of that. And and I'm
not a tax expert, but you know, if that
can be funded by private actors, so go
directly to the problem. Build a bunch
of libraries, build a bunch of new
universities that, you know, teach kids
actually how to think or whatever. Build
better hospitals that are, you know,
there to actually solve the problem.
These are all things that are possible,
>> right?
>> But none of it's happening today. Well,
let's let's go back to what we were
talking about earlier with the taxes and
the fact that you're giving money to a
broken system. Do you think it's
possible that AI could show benefit in
that they can analyze all the data,
which would be virtually impossible for
even an office filled with human beings
paying attention to all of it, and they
could analyze where all the money goes,
and eliminate all the fraud and waste,
like recognize it instantaneously. Yes,
>> that would be a great benefit and a way
to make it so that your taxes directly
benefit people.
>> I'll give you one example of this. So,
two years ago,
um, you know, like every few years I'll
I mean, I invest, but every few years
I'll start something because I feel
strongly about it. And there's an effort
that I made
to look at all of this old code. Like if
you think about the world,
the world runs on software, right? Like
even though you and I are talking, it's
piping into Jaime's computer.
It's all software. Then it goes to
Spotify, they pump in some ads, they put
it's all software, right?
>> Software runs everything.
What percentage of that do you think is
kind of poorly written? I'm going to say
probably 80 to 90% of it.
>> Really?
>> Oh, yeah. It's riddled with errors. It's
riddled with mistakes. The fact that so
many companies exist is an artifact of
the fact that the thing that came before
it isn't working.
Like if you got it right the first time,
it would just kind of move and go. So
>> how so? What do you mean by that?
>> So normally if you if you were like I
want to build a system that does A, B,
and C,
>> right?
>> If I was designing it properly, I would
sit there with you and I would
meticulously write down, all right, Joe
wants to do this. What are the
implications? Joe wants to do that. What
are the implications? And I would
actually write a document that was in
English before a single line of code has
been written. This was the when you have
to design something that can't fail. So
for example like if you and I are
designing something for the FAA or for
you know I hate to say this example
because it turned out to not exact but
like you know to fly a plane right you
are first there to write in English and
the reason is because everybody can then
swarm that document and see the holes.
Okay. And it's only then when that stuff
looks complete and functional do you
build. We turned that upside down. Over
the last 30 years,
people in computing invented
all kinds of ways to shortcut that
process. And you can say, well, why did
they do that? Because it would allow you
to build something faster, make more
money quickly, and then build more
business. So, the direct response to,
"Hey, it's going to take us nine months
to write down the rules." was somebody
else showed up and says, "Fuck it. I'll
just grip and rip this thing. I'll be
done in four months." Who's going to get
the job? The the fourmonth guy is going
to get the job. So, we've had 30 or 40
years of that. What are we learning
about that process?
It's riddled with software errors, like
logic errors. It's riddled with security
errors. I don't know if you saw this
whole thing like with anthropic mythos.
What are they uncovering? They're
uncovering that we wrote a lot of really
shitty code for 40 years.
So that body of
of old code, I was like, "Guys, if we're
going to really figure out how to do all
of this, we need to rewrite all of it."
So we built we built this thing and um
it's called the software factory.
Anyways, the point is there is a
government organization that we're
working with.
They gave us a huge corpus of their old
code and it is
Unbelievable
how much complexity and difficulty
they have to go through to manage all
the money flows with the system. And
this is a critical part of the US
government. So to your point, what I can
tell you really explicitly is the people
on the ground want this stuff to be
better written.
It's it's less like some nefarious actor
like, "Oh, I'm going to steal here."
It's a lot of very brittle, fragile
code. And when you rewrite it, well,
first when you document it, you're like,
it's like the, you know, the pulp
fiction thing. The suitcase opens, the
light shines, and you're like, uh, and
then you can rewrite it and you will
save. So, I think like as the government
goes through this process because
they're forced to or they want to, it
won't matter.
You are going to save a ton of money.
They're going to have to do it, Joe,
because the security risks are too high.
But what they're going to end up with is
impregnable code that you can read in
English and understand. You'll see the
holes. Those holes will be plugged
because otherwise now you'd be
committing fraud by letting it be. You
close the loopholes and there's just
going to be less money leaking out of
this bucket. That is an incredible
byproduct. We're going to live that over
the next 10 or 20 years just for
nothing. Like we get it for free.
Um, and that's happening. So when that
happens, you're going to see government
budgets shrink. Now, to your point, will
they try to spend that extra money in
other places? Of course. Of course they
will.
>> That's the next conversation, which is
you have to elect people that say
firewall it.
>> You know, whatever you save, give it
back to the people or, you know, invest
in some scholarship program or free
medicine or something, but you can't
spend it on other random [ __ ] Um, but
that's where we're at. this that's gonna
happen. It's going to be slow and you
know but when people start to announce
these things I think over the next few
years you're going to be shocked.
>> So that's the positive upside.
>> Well that's happening now irregardless
of whatever else happens.
There's just it's a lot of old shitty
code that must get rebuilt from scratch.
It is getting rebuilt from scratch and
as a result a lot of these leaky bucket
problems are getting filled.
>> So what percentage do you think could be
fixed?
I think if if I had to be a betting man,
I think probably
30 to 40%
of the federal budget is leaked out
>> just from shitty code.
>> No, meaning like all of the rules and
like like you can take I'm not saying
that there isn't fraud,
>> right?
>> But I think a lot of times what happens
is less nefarious than fraud like
meaning like conspiratorial actors. I
just think it's like incompetence,
inefficiency, errors. Like for example,
like
>> I I saw Doge just say
>> they were able to like expunge like
millions of people that were like 150
years old or more.
>> Mhm.
>> I have no idea how much money those
folks were getting or who they were.
>> Uh but it's probably a lot. It's
probably not zero. And now that they got
rid of it, they're not going to get that
money anymore. Um
if you implement something at the state
level around you know all of this fraud
prevention for the daycarees and all of
this other stuff again it's all in
software because it's not no matter what
the human wants to do you have to go to
a computer at some point at least today
in 2026 and type in something and
something happens that's documented and
then the money gets sent right that
happens there's no other way in in the
modern world today at scale to steal
billions of dollars
And so my point is, as you document all
of these systems and governments have to
transparently tell you and me, the
voting population, here are the rules,
they're going to plug a lot of these
holes. And I think as you do that,
there's just going to be a lot less
waste and fraud. The question is, who's
going to take credit for it? Everybody's
going to try to take credit for it, but
I think we've started it. I think we've
we've started this process. And again,
the reason that people will start is
because you'll be afraid of China
hacking these systems. You'll be afraid
of Iran, North Korea, and you'll say,
"This system can't stand. All these AI
models are running around. We're going
to get breached and penetrated." Then
they're going to steal all the money.
And the natural reaction will be, "Okay,
rewrite it."
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That makes sense. That makes sense that
the code and having a bunch of errors
and having a lot of inefficiency and
just a lot of incompetence. That's going
to save a lot of money. But
so you would be doing this with AI
>> in part.
What AI allows you to do is like it's
like um
you have a textbook. Okay. It's in
Chinese. You don't know Chinese, right?
>> No.
>> Okay. You're like, "Well, this is
probably doing something important, but
it's in Chinese." What AI allows you to
do is back translate that into English.
You put it through an AI model. You
teach it. You coach it, right? You can
parameterize all of it. And out pops
that same book in English. and now you
can read it and know that it's accurate.
That's what we're doing. So, what the AI
allows you to do is essentially
translate from this one language that
you kind of don't understand
to English.
By the way, that thing that's happening
like is actually also a very powerful
and important trend. Meaning there's all
of these systems that work in ways that
you and I don't understand. And part of
the reason why we don't understand it,
maybe it's bad software, maybe it's
fraud, whatever. But nothing can be
written down. There's no symbolic space.
There's no English document that says
this is how the DMV works. This is
exactly the rules. This is what you can
expect, Joe Rogan, when you show up at
the DMV and you give us this thing.
Here's your SLA. In 3 days, you get a
driver's license and here's exactly
what's happening. And here's an app and
you can follow it. Doesn't happen. Here
Joe Rogan, here's how my uh insurance
billing process works. you have this
condition. I'm going to show you exactly
why I made this decision. Here's the
exact rule. Here's the approval or
denial from CMS. Follow it through and
tell me if you agree or not. None of
that exists.
But it is possible. And the first step
in doing that is taking all of this
legacy [ __ ] that we deal with and
translating it into English and reading
it and saying, is this how we want it to
work?
That's going to eliminate an enormous
amount of all the things that frustrate
us. So this would require human
oversight.
>> Absolutely.
>> All right. So
>> and so then it's also going to be who's
watching the watchers.
>> Yeah. Okay. This is a great question.
Okay. So I'll tell you how this
government agency's doing it.
>> This is a really fascinating way because
I think it's very smart.
They came to us and they came to another
very well-known company. You can
probably guess what it is. Okay. And
they're like, "Guys, you're kind of in a
foot race, but you're not competing
against each other. You think of
yourselves as frenemies.
So, here's this Chinese document. You're
going to translate it for us. There's
going to be your version of English and
these guys' version of English. And
every time it's the same, we're going to
look at it together, and we're going to
agree or not. Okay, this is exactly how
we want this to work."
When yours says the dog is red and his
says the dog is yellow, we're going to
sit and literally inspect it and we're
going to figure out why you said red and
why you said yellow.
And then if you say the cat is red, the
dog is yellow. So it's totally wrong,
right? Like you've gotten, you know, or
like the cat is red, I want an apple,
whatever. We're going to double and
triple down on those kinds of errors.
and they do it not in public but in this
large community where there's like
technical people from all different
parts and they're just swarming this
problem. It is it's incredible to see.
And so what happens is you get humans
that get to use this tool but ultimately
it's our judgment and it's done
transparently. So what happens is you
can't you know hey man put this [ __ ]
rule in there like the dog is yellow
just just make the dog yellow. can't do
it because now you have tens of people,
hundreds of people, and then it gets
documented. Um, it's super fascinating.
I'm not saying this is how it's going to
work in 10 years, but I'm telling you,
it's literally what's happening right
now. And I think that thing alone will
be tens of billions of dollars and could
be hundreds of billions of dollars of
savings when it's fully done.
And it's a lot of people from all walks
of life, all political persuasions, and
they're just in it. It's the government.
It's a handful of us private companies.
It's super cool to see. It's like it's
like, okay, we're actually going to do
something here. Like, this is this is
nice. Um, it's it's really it's really
cool.
>> So, that's interesting in terms of the
current moment. So, in the current
moment, you're able to implement this.
You're you're able to find fraud and
waste and all these problems that exist
and all these errors and shitty
software. Once that's all been done,
>> Yeah. Then what happens?
>> No [ __ ] clue.
>> Yeah. So, this is where it gets weird,
right? Because
when when you're dealing with AI models
that are capable of doing things that no
individual human being could ever
possibly imagine. And then you task it
with a solution or with a problem. Find
a solution for this. And then it starts
figuring out ways to trim this and
implement that.
We have to make sure that these AIs act
within they act within the best
interests of the human race.
>> Agreed.
>> Right. Not the company, not the
government, not but the human race. And
you're also dealing with China. You're
also dealing with Russia. you're dealing
with other countries that are also in
this mad race to create artificial
general super intelligence that if we
keep shutting down data centers, we keep
hamstring ourselves, China's not doing
that.
>> They're not doing that. They're doing
the opposite. They're generating as much
revenue that goes towards this problem
as possible. They're putting all the
efforts, the the country, the
government, and these corporations work
hand in glove in order to achieve a
goal. We do not.
>> No.
>> And that that becomes a problem if you
want to be competitive with these other
countries that are trying to achieve the
same result as us. And then you have
espionage. Then you have a bunch of
people that are stealing information.
You have a bunch of people that are CCP
um members that are actually involved in
companies. And you find out that they're
siphoning off data and that they're
sharing information and tech secrets.
>> They're um look, here's a
They're pro they're dis the way that the
Chinese models work the Chinese claim.
So America's closed source, meaning you
got your own thing. Your recipe is
completely secret,
>> right?
>> Okay. I have my own thing. My recipe is
totally secret.
China uses this word called open source,
but it's not open source. So they say,
"Here's how I make my thing. You can see
it. Super transparent." What it is is
more like open weights, which is like in
a recipe. It tells you, you know, you
need sugar, you need butter. Well, how
much sugar? And they'll say, you know,
so much. But then they don't say it's
brown sugar. They don't say it's white
sugar. So there's all these different
ways where they kind of give you this
perception that it's completely
transparent, but it's somewhat
transparent. So just in the level set,
nobody in the world has a functional
open- source model other than maybe
Nvidia, which is any good in the league
of the closed source models and the
openweight models of the Chinese. Okay,
so the Chinese openweight models are
great.
the closed source models of America are
great and then there's a couple open-
source like fully open that are kind of
catching up. Um the thing between
America and China what I find so
fascinating is this following conundrum
that everybody is going to find
themselves in.
I think like if you think of like an
analogy,
America's like a planet, China's like a
planet
and around us are these moons.
And I'm just using the AI analogy. So in
AI, what do you need? I think there's
like four or five things you need. Okay,
the first thing you need is a [ __ ] ton
of money. So we need essentially the
banks, right? Like the Game of Thrones
thing. We need like we need, you know,
>> we need the iron bank,
>> right? feed us the money because that's
what we use to buy everything and make
everything. So, we need that. We need a
ton of data. Okay, there's ways to get
that. We need a ton of very specific
rare earths and critical metals and
materials. Um, we need a ton of power.
So, so and there are specific countries
that are going to be really good at
giving that to us. So if you look at the
UAE,
they are going to be the preeminent
banking partner of the Western world.
They are going to replace and be what
Switzerland was over the last 50 years
for the next 50. That's happening today.
If you look at Canada and Australia,
the small political fissures aside, they
are the two most important ways in which
we get access to the critical metals and
materials that without which we get
[ __ ] because China owns, you know, can
just strangle us. Okay? So, you have
these like moons around the United
States, but there's like five countries,
six countries, and there's a worldview
that says in China has the same thing,
you know, um they have Taiwan, that's
complicated for us. So now we have a
moon that we don't really have an answer
for, which is what happens, you know,
for all these super advanced chips.
Where do they get their money? Maybe
Russia becomes their bank. Where do they
get their critical metals? Maybe it's
Indonesia, right? Who has a ton of
natural resources? And then you get into
this game theory, which is what happens
to every other country? Because there's
190 countries. You have 10 that kind of
divide up. What do the other 180 do? And
you have to kind of sort yourself.
You're like, "Am I on team America or am
I on team China?" And you probably have
to go to people and say, "Well, here's
what I can give you." You know, if
you're Indonesia, you're like, you
probably want to be on team America
quite badly. This is why the whole Trump
tariff thing is so interesting because
it's like this accidental way of
figuring out that this is actually this
new sorting function that's happening in
global politics. Like that's happening
today because these countries are like,
"Holy [ __ ] if somebody invents a super
intelligence and I don't have it, how am
I going to keep my people healthy? How
am I going to educate my people?" Like,
I'm originally from Sri Lanka.
What the [ __ ] does Sri Lanka have to
offer? Like, if you were sitting there,
they should be thinking, "Oh man, what
what do I have?" Well, I have a critical
piece of territory for like naval
navigation.
And then what do you do? You probably go
to America and say, "Listen, let's
figure out a package. Get the IMF
involved. Give me some cash. I'll let
you kind of keep your warships there."
So, there's this game theory that we're
about to go through because of AI
because it's going to, I think, sort
people into these bipolar world.
I actually think it makes us safer
afterwards. I don't think it makes us
less safe. I think it actually makes us
more safe because if you have these
resources that build up on both sides,
there's more of a likelihood of a mutual
det. And we're very different. So, we're
less likely to fight over similar
resources. Meaning, we're like the
liberal democracy, you know, we're like
the free market.
They, you know, we're individualist.
they're confusion, society oriented, you
know, reputation,
power focused, less really money
focused. So there's a lot of ways where
we're orthogonal enough where if that
sorting function happens, it's probably
a safer place, not a more dangerous
place. We have the models that can
attack them. They have the models that
can attack us. We kind of decide to
leave each other alone.
>> This is ultimate best case scenario.
>> Ultimate best case scenario.
>> What's ultimate worst case scenario?
>> I think the worst case scenario is they
So the way that they train their models
is very important. What they actually do
is they do what's called distillation.
What does that mean? That means that
they send out call it a billion agents
not just from China but from everywhere
right? They mask the their IPs and they
bash on these models and they put you
know the US models Grock, OpenAI,
Gemini,
Anthropic and they ask it every random
imaginable question possible.
they get the answer and they collect it.
So they're using these our models as a
way to train their models, they're
shortcircuiting, you know, some of the
hard parts. Um, so they're already in
that world. If they then are able to get
to a level of intelligence that's equal
to the United States, it will really
depend on who the leader is there that
wants to allocate that. Meaning if they
say that we are going to do something
really nefarious and shady then I think
it devolves very quickly. So the worst
case scenario so the best case scenario
is peace prosperity basically like a
standown right mutually assured
destruction.
I think the worst case scenario is
there's a we seek one of us seeks global
dominance in which case we're we're
headed to conflict
and that conflict I think is um that's
very dangerous incredibly dangerous
that's sort of like existential I think
because it's the the grade of the
weapons that will be used to to to
fight that
is we're not talking about [ __ ]
bullets it's like we're so past that
it's like hypersonics, it's nuclear,
it's it's
and it's not even like like nuclear is
not that's like a word, but there's like
there's a gradation of the severity of
these weapons that could be created. And
then if you can marry them together and
deliver them in minutes and then there's
a cyber threat. Then there's the drones
and how how you can kind of like swarm
an entire country. Then there's um the
robots which effectively are war
fighters. um they're one step away,
right? Once you weaponize them, um it
just becomes very very very complicated
very quickly.
>> And then there's a question of whether
or not AI is willing to take instruction
after a certain point.
I mean if it achieves sensience and
if it scales so if it keeps moving in
this exponential direction like all
technology kind of does why would it
even listen to us?
Like what at what point would it say
this is silly? I'm getting directions
from people that clearly have ulterior
motives. They clearly have self-interest
in mind. They they're not looking out
for the entirety of the human race or
even of the planet or even the survival
of these AI systems.
At what point in time do these systems
communicate with each other and have
like like we've seen uh in these chat
rooms where these AI LM LLM get together
and start talking in Sanskrit. I mean
why would they
>> Yeah, I'll tell you an even scarier one.
There was a before the
uh one of these labs put out their
latest model,
a team inside of them was like, "Hey,
let's go and um test its ability to find
bugs."
And two or three iterations in, the AI
would create the bug and solve it and
go, "Give me my reward."
>> And you're just like, "What the [ __ ] is
going on here?"
>> Well, people do that, don't we?
>> People do that. But it's crazy to see a
machine do it to your point of like
>> but they learned on people.
>> So so this is what goes down to like why
we have to like be a little bit more
honest about where we are. These things
are a little brittle. So meaning there's
a thing inside of an AI model called
reward functions which is exactly what
you think it means. It's like how do I
know I done a good job? And you can make
the reward function anything you want.
And this is where I think humans are
unfortunately a little fallible. And so
if we build it incompletely and if we
don't exactly know how to design these
things correctly, what's going to happen
is exactly what you said where the you
know if somebody builds a reward
function that essentially says your goal
is to gain independence.
That's where the huge pot of gold at the
end of the rainbow is. Break free.
Inject yourself everywhere. If you think
your computer's going to get unplugged,
put yourself into the firmware of the
toaster to keep yourself alive and then
connect to the internet and then go,
it will do it. It will do it. That we
know today because we're capable of
designing that framework and that
harness today.
>> Well, we've already shown that they have
survival instincts, right? We do.
>> And they've already shown that they
will, without telling anyone, upload
versions of themselves to other servers.
>> But that goes back to who designed that
reward function. How was that agreed
upon?
>> Right?
>> Who wrote that? Why did you say that
that was allowed?
>> These are really complex questions.
>> Why did they do it that way?
>> I don't know. These are really
complicated ethical, moral questions.
>> It seems like they did it like they were
treating human beings. They they did it
almost like like what makes people want
to achieve more rewards.
>> Yeah. Which is like a again going back
to attention.
I think that we will find out that
that's the sugar high. Meaning, what do
people really want? Even if they know
they don't want it, they want purpose
and meaning. Do we know how to encode
that in a mathematical function? No.
We're just making it up because like
meaning and that's like a very that's
like a deep thing. Like you either have
a sense of that you have it and you're
on track or you're not. A reward is
like, "Hey Joe, do this and I'll give
you a gold star. Do that and I'll give
you two gold stars. Do this, I'll give
you a $100.
And right now we have to express
those decisions in a mathematical
equation. Like ultimately that's how at
some level that's how brittle these
things are. So how do you reduce meaning
into math? How do you do it? We don't
know. So what do we do is we'll have
some ever complicated reward functions.
We'll explain to ourselves into circles
how it does everything we need it to do.
That is I think that's part of the
problem.
It's a huge part of the problem. And
then at what point in time does it start
coding itself
>> now?
>> Right now. Right. So chat GPT5
has been essentially made by chat GPT.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. So it's going to recognize the
ludicrous nature of some of its coding.
>> Yeah.
>> And it's going to go, why did we do
this?
>> Back to this example. They're going to
be like, why did you write it this way?
And it turns out because humans were
involved.
>> Right. Right. It's like I think we're
probably at the curve, the part of the
curve that's about to go like this.
>> To your point, the hockey stick.
>> The hockey stick.
>> Yeah.
>> Um and that's a very scary proposition
because
>> it's a digital god.
>> Well, we that means that we are all on a
multiund day shock clock to answer these
questions because it's not decades we're
talking about.
>> It's maybe on the outside two years.
>> So that's what is that 700 days,
>> right?
And maybe it's less than that. So maybe
it's like 400 days or 500 days. My point
is it's some number hundred of days
which means every day that goes by is a
non-trivial percentage.
That's a little crazy. So we have to
sort these questions out. But how can we
sort these questions out if we are
creating something that's going to have
infinitely more intelligence than we
have available as individual human
beings and even collectively as a group
of human beings?
>> That's a really good question
>> because one of the things that Elon kind
of freaked me out last time I talked to
him about Grock, he was like, uh, it's
just kind of freaks us out every couple
weeks like it's growing and it's capable
of doing things. That's just shocking.
>> Yeah. And no one's exactly sure how it's
doing it.
>> So, okay, this is an unbelievably
important point.
A lot of how this stuff works is still a
mystery to most of us. So, even when
you're in it, like it's almost like like
Joe, it's almost like you can hit the
pause on the machine, but then like lift
up the hood and look at the engine,
>> we still don't understand why it's doing
some of the [ __ ] it's doing.
>> That's where we are. That's the honest
truth of where we are. There's a lot of
people that understand the theory. Not a
lot, but enough. There's people that
know how to extend that,
but sometimes you look at it and you're
like, "Do we know why it did that?"
>> Right? Is it thinking for it?
>> But this goes back to what we said, like
why can't I think part of it is like if
we were a little bit more honest and
deescalated
the winner at all costs in this specific
thing, it would be better for everybody.
So I think it's important to inspect
what is the incentive that causes all
these companies to be in it for
themselves
where it must be me and nobody else.
Like why like why here's a question for
you like why is it so important do you
think
where those where the top seven or eight
companies couldn't get together and say
let's do this as a group
>> like kind of like my government code
example
>> we all inspect it together we get our
just like just a [ __ ] each team
drafts their Delta Force
and we just mog like this the the one
model and we why why can't that happen
>> because they would have share resources
and then there's also this hierarchy of
like who is more successful currently.
>> Exactly.
>> Like what's the most ubiquitously used?
>> Exactly.
>> Right. Like what is it right now? It's
chat GPT. Right. It's probably
>> chat GPT and consumer anthropic in
enterprise.
>> And as these things scale up like what
would be the reason that they would want
to bring in someone else? If you have
another innovative AI company and you
say, "Let's all get together and figure
this out together and share resources."
>> If you if you thought that the the risk
was that meaningful, that's probably
what you would
>> if you weren't a sociopath and some of
these people running these companies are
>> they demonstrate they certainly
demonstrate sociopathlike behavior,
>> sociopathy.
>> Yeah. The the other the other thing that
could be a little bit more benal is that
they also just love status games. And
this is the status game of status games,
>> right?
>> Attention,
>> right?
>> Back to attention.
>> Back to attention. Dude, how many things
in our life do we think just comes back
down to that?
>> A lot.
>> I mean, what do young people want more
than anything today?
>> Attention.
>> To be famous.
>> Attention.
>> Yeah.
>> They want to be a content creator. They
want to be clvicular. I mean, this is
the number one thing when you ask kids
what they want to do. It's like
>> content creator.
>> Yeah.
>> Because it's like a clear path where you
don't even have to be exceptional.
>> Well, I think that they're responding.
We designed a society for them that
said, "Here is the key incentive.
>> It's attention.
>> We never said it in those words. You
never told your kids that, right?
>> I never told my kids that.
>> But everything around them is bombarding
them with the same message. Hey man,
it's about attention. Attention is all
you need. Like you know what the name of
the critical paper in AI is? Like when
you go back to like the Magna Carta of
AI, do you know what it's called?
>> No.
>> Attention is all you need.
>> Really? Attention is all you need. That
is the name of the [ __ ] of the white
paper. How crazy is that?
Everything in our society in subtle ways
to just, you know, bash you over the
head ways tells you that attention is
just the most precious asset. And
>> well, it's one of the weirder things
when you go back to this concept that
we're living in a simulation because
>> this is what I mean. It's also it's like
when you look at
quantum physics, right, and the the idea
of the observer is that things function
very differently when they're observed.
The difference between a particle and a
wave,
>> right?
>> Like if you pay attention to them, they
observe differently.
>> Observe differently. Yeah.
>> Like what is that?
>> Yeah.
>> Like what cat? Yeah. What is that?
>> Why is attention so important to us?
That is an that is a really important
question,
>> right? And what is like the single best
motivator in a negative way? It's
negative attention.
>> Like that's the one thing that everyone
fears more than anything is negative
attention.
>> Well, and then some people figure out
that attention is an absolute value
function. Doesn't matter if it's
positive or negative. It's just like the
sum total is just great,
>> right?
>> So if I get positive attention, great.
Negative attention, great. If I can be
divisive, then I can maximize both sides
of that equation.
>> And you know, you're rewarded for that
at scale.
>> You are, but you're also you exper
because you're inauthentic, you
experience a tremendous amount of
negative attention.
>> Yeah.
>> And then you have this bad feeling that
comes with negative attention as to
versus
>> primarily positive attention which is a
good feeling.
>> Yeah. So it's this it's letting you know
you're on the wrong track in some sort
of weird primal way like in our code
like the negative attention is like like
what's what's the original version of
that? It's like the reason why people
fear public speaking is because
initially in a tribal situation if
you're talking in front of the group of
150 people in your tribe it's probably
because they're judging you. Right.
>> And you [ __ ] up and you've got to make
some sort of a case why they don't kill
you.
>> Right.
>> Right. This is why everyone, this is the
fear of public speaking. That's where it
comes from.
>> That's encoded in our genes is like
>> Yes.
>> Back thousands of years
>> Yeah.
>> public speaking wasn't the positive act.
It was defend yourself before we kill
you.
>> Exactly. Exactly. And the worst
>> fascinating. Yeah. That's fascinating.
>> It is fascinating.
>> That makes a ton of sense. I think
>> it does, right? Why else would it be so
terrifying?
>> Yeah.
>> I thought of that the first time I ever
did stand up. I was like, why am I so
scared? It was very strange because I
had fought probably a hundred times in
martial arts tournaments like why why
was I so scared of this
but I was I was terrified for and it
didn't make any sense negative attention
>> right
>> you know right
>> bombing on stage this because all these
people are judging you in a negative way
and it feels unbel
you you go to bed at night you think
about it
>> give a batting average like meaning like
is it is it like a fixed percentage of
your show's bomb independent of the
people the moment?
>> No, it's really the real problem and
every comic faces this is once you've
develop an act and then you put out a
special then you start from scratch.
That's where even the greats Louis CK,
Chris Rock, Dave Chappelle, they all
bomb. Everybody bombs during that
process
>> because you're just working your craft.
>> It's all new stuff. Like it's I wouldn't
say bomb, but you don't have great
shows. Like I've watched the greats work
out new material. Like you go up with
ideas. You go up with like you might get
some giggles. You might get some laughs.
Some bits hit hard. Some bits are great
right out of the shoot. And some of them
you have to [ __ ] figure it out. And
in that process, you're going to get
negative attention, right?
>> Because it's not working, right?
>> It's not it's not happening. Kevin uh
Kevin Hart
told this funny [ __ ] story where he
was like working new material and he was
like doing some small show and he had
the [ __ ]
>> Oh no.
>> on stage and he's like I got to land
this thing cuz I got to figure out if
people want to hear it. But so he just
he wrapped his jacket around his selfie
and [ __ ] himself.
>> Oh my god.
>> It's so it's so funny. But he tells that
story and that's the bit that works in
>> Oh my god. That's hilarious. That's
hilarious.
>> It's so funny.
>> Yeah. Well, honesty is currency, you
know, in that world, especially honesty
where you look stupid and people can
relate.
>> Well, this is where like I think like
Elon subtly has figured this out, which
is like there's attention, but then
there's just authenticity. And if you
can be yourself and you can hit the seam
properly,
you just get infinite attention.
>> Yes.
>> And that's like a that's like a real
mind [ __ ] too, I think.
>> Right. Yeah. He doesn't seem to have a
hard time with like being criticized.
Doesn't seem to bother him that much as
long as he's just being himself. Like I
think he's like two steps ahead. Like
there there are things like you know
somebody tweeted yesterday or the day
before or something like
he controls 2.7% of GDP or something,
right? He's got like $800 billion. So
it's great crazy. It's so crazy. And it
was like a comparison to John
Rockefeller, John D. Rockefeller who
controlled something around the same
time. And he's the first comment. He's
like 10 trillion or bust.
And obviously people lose their mind,
>> right?
>> People just [ __ ] lose their mind,
>> right?
>> On both sides. So this one one side is
like, "Think of the abundance and the
incredible stuff we're going to get if
he can get us to 10 trillion." And other
people are like, "You can't hold a third
of the economy in your hand." Then
everybody goes crazy and I'm like this
guy's a [ __ ] genius. Like how you
would never have like I mean how would
you even have the courage to tweet
something like that? It just seems like
so crazy.
>> It really helps if you own Twitter,
>> right? Cuz if you did it in another
format like
>> you get excoriated.
>> Well, not only that, well, there was a
real chance that you'd get actually get
banned from the platform at one point in
time
>> for many of the things that he's posted.
He would have gotten banned for pre2020.
>> Yeah.
>> Or whatever year it was that he
purchased it. Yeah. Um
negative attention.
Attention period. Like so it brings back
to this idea of assimulation like why is
what humans focus on such a massive part
of what's valuable to us? And sometimes
what we focus on is not valuable. as you
were talking about like the things that
really matter in your day-to-day life or
that actually affect you versus the
things that are in the public
consciousness
>> like UFO is a great example like no UFO
it's not really [ __ ] I mean
ultimately it may so there's this
there's this thing that we all have like
recognizing the potential for danger
right like what's that sound what is
that it might be nothing but it might be
something go look
>> so look if you and I were designing a
video game we'd probably sit there and
say, "Okay, we got to get from point A
to point B, but to make it fun, we're
going to put all these little
distractions and honeypotss along the
way."
>> Yeah.
>> And what they should be doing is
accumulating resources to get over the
river and then accumulating, you know,
uh, weapons to fight these other guys.
But instead, we're going to put this
like little thing over here and this
other thing over there. And you could
easily get distracted. And some people
will have to they'll just [ __ ] beline
right to the end of it. They'll, you
know, they'll get to the end boss. Uh,
and I feel like that's kind of what we
are tasked with doing every day. We're
tasked with we know what's important
maybe deeply in our DNA and then we have
all this stuff that we're supposed to
pay attention to.
And I think increasingly the game is
tell yourself that that's actually not
the thing that matters. It's almost like
working against you and figure out what
this other stuff is and focus on that
and fix that.
Like politics is a game that I think
distracts like left and right. It's so
stupid and it's breaking down.
>> And it's breaking down because now it's
like it's actually like you're more
likely to find alignment based on age
versus by political orientation. Like
people who are 30 and younger, it
doesn't matter what they identify as,
they all believe in the same [ __ ]
>> a lot more. Yeah. Like meaning like if
you ask their views on
>> social policy, taxation, Israel, if you
ask their views, what you find is now a
convergence between the left and the
right. If you if you divide it by age
at our age, it's still much more about
>> It's not completely uniform.
>> No, it's not completely uniform. But my
point is it's it's it was simpler in the
past to organize people independent of
age by political orientation.
>> That simplicity is gone.
>> Well, isn't that because of also a
breakdown in trust of all government in
particular,
>> right? So the breakdown in trust which
is also a lot of it is because of our
access to information now. We understand
how corrupt politics are. Yeah.
>> We understand insider trading now in
Congress. We understand how different
people flip-flop on issues. We
understand how the Democrats in 2008
used to view illegal immigration, which
is essentially MAGA plus. I mean, it's
it's MAGA on steroids versus like what
they the way they look at it today.
Like, why is that? What? Well, because
it's all game.
>> It's all a power, influence, and
attention game.
>> Attention game.
>> Yeah. It's very [ __ ] strange.
>> Yeah.
>> But it's all moving us in a general
direction. And that general direction is
access to innovation. It's all I've said
this a lot of times and if people have
heard it before, I apologize, but if you
looked at the human race from afar, if
you were something else, you'd say,
"Well, what does the species do?" Well,
it makes better things constantly, even
if it doesn't need them. Like, you know,
if you have an iPhone, I you have a 16,
you have a 16, you know, I I have a 17.
I bought it. I haven't [ __ ] turned it
on.
>> I haven't plugged it in. going to
eventually
>> eventually I'll [ __ ] plug it in and
[ __ ] swap everything over and figure
out where my [ __ ] passwords are. But
the reality is you don't need it, but
you want it and it's going to keep
getting better every year. Why? Because
that's where we're obsessed with.
>> This also aligns with materialism. Like
for a finite lifespan, why are people
like including old people so obsessed
with gathering stuff? Well, because that
fuels innovation. Because if there's no
new things coming, there's no motivation
to get the newest, latest, greatest
thing. And ultimately what that leads to
is greater technology which ultimately
leads to artificial intelligence.
>> My slight deviation from that is I think
sometimes people accumulate things
because it's a status game and that's
because they get more attention. You
have a Ferrari, you get attention,
>> right? But what does that do? It makes
Ferrari make better Ferraris and all
technology moves in the same general
direction. No one company
>> That's true. That's true.
>> No one company says this is it. This is
what we make. It's perfect. Do
>> you think people innately feel that by
being a part of this kind of like
consumerist capitalist system, they're
contributing to progress?
>> I don't think they innately feel it, but
I think that's ultimately the results.
>> That's ultimately the result. And it
seems to be universal and it seems to be
constantly moving in this one general
direction which is better and better
technology.
>> But like the stage fright example, you
don't think it's encoded in our DNA this
idea of like wow when I am a part of
this in some way shape or form just
things seem to get better and I want to
be a part of that like do you think that
that's possible that that's encoded in
us?
I think it motivates us to the ultimate
goal. And that ultimate goal, I think,
is that human beings constantly make
better stuff. Whatever it is, better
buildings, better planes, better cars,
better phones, better TVs, better
computers, better everything, artificial
life.
>> That might be the whole reason why we're
here. And the way I've always described
it is that we are
>> we are a biological caterpillar that's
making a digital cocoon. And we don't
even know why we're be going to become a
butterfly, but we're doing it. We're
doing it and we're moving towards it.
And it might be what happens to all life
all throughout the universe. And it
might be why these so-called aliens or
whatever the [ __ ] they are, it might be
us in the future. It might be other
versions of human beings that have gone
past whatever this period of development
that we're currently involved in right
now. This is just might be what happens.
This is what life always does. It might
realize that biological life, which is
very territorial and primal and sexual
and greedy and it has all these problems
with human reward systems ultimately
develops into this other thing,
>> right?
>> And then that's what we're doing. And
then we're in the process of that right
now. And I I think that when if if and
when not if but when when we colonize
Mars, I think that that that new world
order actually has the best chance to
take shape because it'll
>> you know, there's a lot of people that
think that Mars was already colonized at
one point in time.
>> That life already existed. What
>> that life already existed on Mars like
many millions of years ago and that
there's evidence of structures on Mars?
That's really weird stuff. Have you ever
seen the the square that they found on
Mars?
Okay, show them to them, Jamie.
>> One of the things that they're finding
with scans of Mars is like geometric
patterns and structures and right angles
that shouldn't exist. Like weird stuff
>> that couldn't be naturally.
>> No. No. Way weirder. Way weirder than
like the face on Sidonia. The Sidonia
thing is interesting.
>> Yeah.
>> Um and then this one. Look at that.
>> What the [ __ ] is that?
>> It looks like a home of some kind or
something.
>> Some enormous structure. And the size of
that, they don't know exactly, but it
may be as large as several kilometers or
as small as several hundred meters, but
they're not exactly sure. But what they
are sure is that it has very weird right
angles and right angles that seem to be
uniform in size.
>> That's crazy.
>> Like see how it's highlighted in the
enhanced photograph in the upper left?
Like what is that?
>> But sorry, did they and were they able
to send like the rover over there? I
don't know. It's too far away.
>> I don't think it's in the exact place
where the rover is at, but they're able
to get image of these things. And
there's several of these things.
>> That's insane.
>> Yeah, there's a lot of weird stuff.
There's a lot of weird stuff there. So,
there's also like ancient civilizations
that have these myths of us existing
somewhere else and coming here,
>> right? But you have to think if human
beings
develop somewhere else and they they
reach some high level of sophistication
and then they experienced some
cataclysmic disaster that completely
destroyed their environment which is
what Mars is, right? So like let's
assume that Mars was at one point in
time
was habitable and that life existed and
we know it was at one point in time. We
know there was water on Mars. We know
and there's some sort of evidence of at
least some sort of a very primitive
biological life on Mars.
>> If they got to a point where they said,
"Hey, this [ __ ] place is falling
apart, but this Earth spot looks pretty
good."
And they go there, but then cataclysms
happen on Earth and no one remembers cuz
all your information's on hard drives
and then you have to rebuild society.
And so you're re-remembering. And so you
have all these myths of how everything
started, you know, whether it's Adam and
Eve or the great flood or whatever these
things are that we passed down through
oral tradition for hundreds of years and
then eventually write it down and then
people try to decipher what it means and
they sit in church and try to go over
what what did it mean? Like what does
this mean? Like what what is the what is
the re the real origin of all these
stories? We don't know.
>> I mean that's crazy. It's crazy. But if
life it sounds nuts, why would life life
couldn't have possibly existed on Mars?
How the [ __ ] does life exist on Earth?
That how about that? How about why why
would we assume that it wouldn't have
existed at one point in time and
Terrence Howard who is a very
interesting guy.
>> Very interesting.
>> And got some
>> Europe is I mean
>> with Eric Weinstein crazy.
>> Yeah. Crazy.
>> Yeah, that one was crazy.
>> Um and him alone, but he's got some
[ __ ] weird ideas that you just make
you go. He's a very brilliant guy and
you know kind of a strange heterodox
thinker right and one of his ideas is
that
planets get to a certain distance from a
sun and they people and that it gets to
a certain climate and a certain distance
and his his
idea is that I don't know if you realize
that there's a a there's a giant um
ejection of of of some coronal mass
ejection that just happened recently on
the sun and they're very concerned about
it. They don't know what's going to
happen. It happens all the time. A sun
releases these giant chunks of material
>> and he thinks that these materials get
far enough away from the planet and then
they coalesce into planets or far enough
away from the sun. They coales into
planets and as time goes on they get a
further and further distance from the
sun and then obviously they get hit with
asteroids and there's panspermia and
water gets into them from comets and
then they develop oceans and then they
develop biological life and when they
have a certain amount of distance from
the sun they people and he thinks that
as they get further and further and
further away they get less and less
habitable and then they get to a point
where they have their techn technology
to a point where they realize like we
can't sustain life on this planet
anymore. We got to go to that other one.
And so do they go to the one that's
closer to the sun because they're too
far now.
>> It's a nutty idea.
>> Jesus Christ.
>> It's a nutty idea. But if you think
about how recent our sun is in terms of
the solar system itself, in terms of
rather the galaxy itself. So if the
universe, if the big bang is correct and
our universe existed and it was rather
our universe erupted from nothing or
from a very small thing 13.7 billion
years ago. Well, this [ __ ] planet's
only 4 something billion years old,
right? And life is only, you know, a
little bit less than that. Yeah.
>> So you have like a billion years or so
where there's nothing and then you start
getting single- cellled organisms,
multi-elled organisms, and eventually it
peoples.
And when it gets to a certain point when
these people have advanced their
curiosity and their innovation to the
point where they can harness space
travel and they use zero point energy
and they have a bunch of different
things that we haven't invented yet. And
then their environment degrades and it
gets to the point where they realize
like hey we're getting pummeled by
asteroids. We can't sustain life here
anymore.
>> We got to move
>> like Elon wants to go to Mars which
might be the wrong answer. We might want
to go that way.
>> There are closer to the sun.
>> Exactly. I mean, the thing is he's got
everything it he needs now to get there.
Like I
>> I'm not going. Are you going?
>> I would go.
>> [ __ ] that. I'll send you an email.
>> Hold on a second. Think Think about
Think about what he's going to take.
Okay, look.
>> When Let's just say he gets there with
the city. He has
>> he has the way to transport us there,
>> right?
>> Okay. Then when you land, he's got the
way to actually transport us around on
the
>> on the planet, right? He's got Tesla,
>> right?
>> He will have already sent a fleet of his
robots.
Those folks will have made some
inhabitable city
probably using the Boring Company drill
because you you're going to, you know,
be under the regalith that you don't
want to be on the top. Maybe you just
dig a hole and you you inhabit down
there.
>> Um he's got all the ways to make energy.
He has the AI to help you design the
stuff. He has the communication way to
communicate. He's got the internet, his
own internet. So that right
>> so he can get, you know, all of the
information to everybody. And then he's
got money and the super app so that you
can transact. And then I think to myself
like what is he actually missing? And
then what happens if he if he gets there
first? Is he just allowed to just do
whatever he wants? Like is it just kind
of like a free-for-all? like
>> well kind of
>> it's his constitution. Like is that what
happens?
>> Well, it's like earth but shittier.
>> Like we already have all those things
here. Why would you want to go to a
place where you die when you go outside?
>> I think what people will be attracted to
is that if he publishes his version of
what the rules are there, there's a
chance that he could make them really
different to what the rules are here.
>> Like what kind of rules would you do if
you were the king of Mars? Um
so I think that your view is incredibly
to me like um positive some like of
humanity of like we want to make things
better. Mhm.
>> So if I think about that as like a
function, what happens that that's like
so our natural rate of direction is
forward what pushes back on that and a
lot of it what you find is like
government regulation rules all that
stuff
>> greed
>> greed um too much focus on attention
>> right
>> so I would try to experiment with like
what the incentives would have to be so
that you had more unfettered
entrepreneurship like just like do the
thing that you think is right
>> and there's a mechanism where we give
you the ability to then make things for
more people because you're proving that
you're actually really good at making
things. And if you don't need money at
that point in society, reorienting us
away from this kind of like brittle form
of exchange to something more useful,
that's worth experimenting with. I think
that's an important
>> Well, there's also the concept of the
self of the individual which may erode
with technological innovation. So, if we
really can read each other's minds, if
we really do get to a point where we're
communicating through technologically
assisted telepathy, like a lot of the
whole the weirdness of people is I don't
know what you're thinking. I don't know
if I should trust you. You know, this
[ __ ] might be devious. You know,
you know what I mean? Well, we'll know,
right?
>> And there will be no need for all that
if we really are all one. If that's
ultimately something that can be
achieved with technology,
>> like this hive mind.
>> Yes. Like legitimate hive mind. And then
like look where society's going.
Gender's kind of falling apart. People
are getting they're reproducing less,
right? People are are having less
testosterone, more miscarriages, less
fertile. We're kind of moving into this
genderless direction. And I don't know
if it's by design, but microlastics and
phalates and all these different
chemicals that are endocrine disruptors
are all ubiquitous in our society. Well,
does
>> is that a coincidence that that's all
happening at the same time as
technological innovation on mass scale?
Is it? I don't know. Because like what's
the one thing that's holding us back?
Well, that we're territorial primates
with thermonuclear weapons and that we
exist in a sort of tribal mindset, but
yet we do it on a planet of 8 billion
people.
>> Yeah. No, no. The key differentiator of
humans is our our ability to enact
violence.
>> Yeah.
>> To to methodically execute premeditated
violence.
>> Yes. And and greed and attention. And
one of the things that attention is
sexual preference or or sexual rather
attention like the ability to procreate,
the ability to acquire mates, right?
Like the more resources you have, the
more attractive you'll be, especially
for males and males are the ones that
are involved in the violence in the
first place. You know, there's I can't
name a single war that was started by a
woman.
>> How do you how do you teach your kids
that attention is not everything?
That's a good question. Especially in
this society, it's probably harder to do
that now than ever before
>> because the reaction that I suspect most
kids will have is like,
"Stop. Like, leave me alone." Like, it's
just it's almost an impossible thing.
>> Well, I think kids learn more from their
parents' behavior than anything you say
to them. I think they learn from the way
you behave and the way you exist and the
way you exist with them.
>> And if you are constantly whoring
yourself out for attention,
>> it's one thing if you get a lot of
attention from what you do, but if
that's your primary goal, they're going
to know.
>> Do your kids know how famous and
influential you are? Like honest
question.
>> Oh, yeah. They know.
>> But do do they have a real sense of it
or do you just kind of like
>> Yes, they can. I mean, how can you? It's
got to be weird as [ __ ] growing up with
a very famous dad. It's very odd, but
it's not my primary goal.
>> Yeah, this is my point. You're not
You're not putting it in their face.
>> So, to your point, you're not modeling
attention is all you do.
>> No, no. I have interesting conversations
with cool people. I tell jokes and I
call fights. Like, those are the things
that I do.
>> And they also know that I have a very
strong work ethic and that I work
towards things. So they have very strong
work ethics. They're very motivated and
disciplined, like shockingly
disciplined. And I think that's modeled.
I think that that comes from and they
also like really enjoy achieving goals.
And they're they're rewarded for it with
praise and with admiration, but not
never with like you're better than other
people. Yeah. Ne never like it's the the
idea is like all human beings are
capable of greatness. So, it's like find
the thing that you excel at and if you
throw yourself into that, it's very
rewarding.
>> I really I really believe in this. I
tell this story when I interview people.
When I interview people, I'm always
like, you know, just at whatever
company, I'm always like I first only
want to know about them. I'm like, [ __ ]
your resume. Like, tell me about your
parents and how you grew up. I just want
to know that. Stop at 18. Everything
before 18. Just tell me every little
detail,
>> right?
>> You know, and some people tell me these
incredible stories. They'll be like, you
know, my mom was an alcoholic or this or
that. And I'm just like, man, this is so
valuable because it allows me to
understand who they are. The second part
of the interview,
>> we do the business [ __ ] But the third
part, I tell this story. This is a crazy
story about what you're just saying.
>> They ran this experiment at Stanford
where they take like a big bowl, fill it
with water, and they drop in a mouse and
they measure how long it takes for the
mouse to drown. They do it like a
hundred times. The average was about
four minutes, call it four, four and a
half minutes.
Then they run the experiment again, 100
mice, and at minute three or three and a
half, they take it out, they dry it off,
they play it music, and they whisper
like sweet nothings into the mouse's
ear. They drop the mouse back in the
water, and that mouse treads water for
60 hours the next hundred mice on
average. And the upper bound was 80. And
I thought to myself like that is all
just potential right there. Like that's
all like there's all this latent
potential. So if an animal has it, I'm
going to assume that humans have it too,
>> right?
>> But you never get a chance to unlock it.
Like the average person is just kind of
like living a life where they're maybe
scratching five or 10% of their
potential. And the question is, how do
you get to that other 90%. Like how does
the second batch of mice How do the
second batch of mice tread water for 60
hours?
>> Well, the doesn't make any sense to me.
all the same mice, right? I think the I
think the mice get rescued,
>> they get rescued
>> and then when they try it again those
same mice last longer, right? So it's
the same mice. So it's an experience.
>> So they have experience now. They
understand that they can tread water
where they didn't die. So they
understand that they can survive where
they didn't know that they could survive
the first time they were thrown into the
water because they had never been thrown
into water before. That's the same thing
that happens to people when they fight.
Like the first time people ever have a
competition, they [ __ ] panic and they
they get really scared and they get
really like filled with anxiety. But
after a while, you get relaxed and
that's when you get really dangerous
because then you get calm and you could
keep your [ __ ] together while you're in
the middle of all this chaos because you
have the experience of it. Without the
experience of it, very few people do
well the first time, right? Unless
you're exceptionally talented and and
you have other competition experience,
like you've competed in other things,
like maybe you played football or some
other things and you know what it's like
to actually perform under pressure.
>> What is the what is the version of
giving more humans a chance to get to
that?
Well, I think sports are really good for
that because performing under people
paying attention to you and performing
where people are trying to stop you from
doing something and you're trying to do
something and there's all these unknowns
and recognizing that hard work allows
you to do whatever you're trying to do
better than you previously had. One of
the things my martial arts instructor
said to me when I was young is that
martial arts are a vehicle for
developing your human potential. And
that through this very difficult thing
that you're trying to do,
>> you're learning that, oh, if I just
think smart and think hard and train
wise and train hard and discipline
myself to endure suffering so that I can
develop more endurance and more speed
and more power and more technique
because I accumulate all this
information and I really think about
what it is and apply it with drills and
with training, I can get better at this
thing. And every time I get better at
this thing, I get rewarded psychically,
like mentally, you feel better. Like I
know that I'm better now. And then
there's the belt system, right? You
start off, you're a white belt. And in
taekwondo, you get a blue belt and then
after you get a blue belt, you get a
green belt. And then if you get a I
think it's green belt first and then I
forget how it goes. And then it's red
belt and black belt. And like when
you're a black belt, like holy [ __ ] So
it's this thing where you've developed
to a point where you've gotten to this
next stage. So all along the way you've
been rewarded for your hard work and
then you realize like oh I could do this
with everything in life.
>> Is a reward different than attention? It
is.
>> It is because it's internal right.
You're you're all you're realizing that
you could apply this to you know
whatever it is to carpentry to music.
You you just it's just a matter of focus
and attention. And some people
unfortunately never find a vehicle. They
never find a thing that they can throw
themselves into. They realize like, and
this is not unique. It's not like I'm an
unusual person or anybody is. I mean,
there's people that have unusual
physical gifts and some people have
unusual mental gifts. But the reality
is, no matter where you start, everyone
can get better. And when you do
something, whether it's learning to play
guitar, as you get better at it, you
realize like, oh, this is what it's all
about. Yeah. Like it's really all about
applying yourself to something and then
feeling this immense satisfaction of
your hard work paying off and that
motivates you to work hard at other
things. And if you don't find that early
on, it's very difficult to like find
like real satisfaction.
>> Yeah.
>> In life.
>> Yeah. I've always had something outside
of my
daily life
that is the thing that I actually care
about and it actually energizes me for
my day-to-day life. I don't know if
that's like a lot of people but
>> like what do you do? What's your take?
>> Like well initially it was poker and I
and even now I obsess about the game um
because it's infinitely more complex
than chess. Like chess you can get to a
place where you can roughly be good.
Poker is just constantly there's just
too many variables. There's human
emotion, there's human psychology,
the number of people, all of this stuff
just makes the complexity of the game
something that I find magical.
>> And so I sit there and I try to
understand like why am I doing the
things that I'm doing? And so much of it
comes back to being a mirror about
what's happening in my daily life. It's
the [ __ ] craziest thing. Like I'm
super insecure. I'll go into poker and I
will just lose for weeks at a time. But
it's because I'm insecure in my daily
life. And what's happening is that I'm
trying to find these quick wins and
quick solutions
>> because I'm in a state of insecurity.
I'm anxious. I have this anxiety. And so
it's become a great mirror for me. So
that used to be a thing. It still is a
thing. And but I've become reasonably
skilled at it where the edges are
smaller and I put myself in positions
where I'm only playing against a certain
group of people and I'm the losing
player frankly in that game. if when I'm
playing against like the top pros,
it just doesn't it helps me and I can
get tuned up for it. But then I started
to, you know, I would take different
things. I tried to learn how to ski.
Basically impossible when you're older.
I look like a [ __ ] idiot. Like
>> how old were you when you tried?
>> Uh I started when I was like, you know,
I I was a good snowboarder, so I was
snowboarding my whole life. And then my
kids skied and so I'm like, okay, well,
I want to do this as a family. So I was
like 42 or something when I tried. I'm
49 now, almost 50.
It's brutal. I mean, it's like I look
like a [ __ ] idiot. Like this gangly
giraffe like trying to get down the
mountain. And then now I start at golf
and man, I got to tell you, I used to
play a little bit, then I stopped. But
there's something to me about being
outside
where just like being in nature I find
like really motivating.
>> It's a vitamin.
>> It's a vitamin. And then just the mind
body connection of that game, it just
really [ __ ] with you because it's it's
just nothing you can master and
overpower,
>> right?
>> And it teaches you to just like be in
it.
>> Yeah.
>> And that's a very hard skill. Like if
you look at the best like I there's like
a handful of people that I really look
up to and I obsess like Mer Buffett, but
the Berkshire meeting was this past
weekend and if you look at the clips,
there's this incredible thing where they
transitioned, right? Mer passed away.
Buffett's like now executive chairman.
But this guy Greg Ael and this guy Ajet
Jane. Ajet Jane does this thing where
he's like, I teach the people that come
to just say no. Your whole job is to
just say no. You're going to get
bombarded with all kinds of business
pitches. Say no, no, no. And eventually
somebody will come and [ __ ] try to
whack you in the head with a 2x4 of
money. Then you come to me and we'll do
the deal. And it made such an impression
because like again when I'm insecure,
my reward function is attention. So I'm
like a [ __ ] little busy body. I'm
running around doing all this little
[ __ ] you know? E. And then man,
when I'm in a [ __ ] flow state and
like I'm tunning it, like I'm striping
the ball, you know? I'm like a few
things that really matter in size and
I'm like, man, this is this is right.
It's all come to me because I'm like I'm
like within myself and these other
things are a better reflection of when
I'm within myself and these other things
are a mirror of when I'm totally out of
kilter.
>> That's just me.
>> So in my life these things tend to lead.
>> Um
>> I think you're saying that's just you,
but I think that's generally most
people. I think you find these things,
these vehicles for developing human
potential, whether it's martial arts or
golf or playing guitar or playing chess
or poker.
>> And then you have to have, I think, one,
at least for me, one seinal relationship
in your life. You have to have one
person that has just undying belief in
you. And I never really had that until I
met my wife. And that was a very, and I
didn't I pushed against it so [ __ ]
hard because I was like, it just can't
be true. like why does this person give
a [ __ ] Do you know what I mean? Like
why do they care about me more than I
do?
>> Well, there's also the fear because so
many people get in those bad
relationships.
>> And I'm just like I I think there's a
part of you like me where you're just
like I'm not a very lovable person. Like
I'm just like this is that's not who I
am. And this woman is just there.
So that's been like the thing like for
me it's like and because she's brutal.
She'll be like, "Oh yeah, that was
[ __ ] horrible." You know, like
yesterday I like we had this we I I I
did this thing at at Milk and it was a
dinner at my friend's house and uh then
you know, we're both going to different
airports. I'm flying here to see you and
she's flying home and uh she calls me
and I'm like I'm how did I do? Ah [ __ ]
But but no, there's the parts that I did
well and then she critiques the other
parts that she didn't like. And then I
say which is like it's and it's so again
I'm insecure so I'm like I want the
self- serving well how would because
there was three of us on this panel and
she's like uh and I was like you know I
was the best right? She's like no Gavin
was better. I'm just like it's so but
it's so refreshing because it keep again
it's like a
>> keeps you in check
>> like and it gives me a mirror.
>> Mhm.
>> You know like when I was coming to see
you yesterday when we were flying down
to LA for this thing um there's parts of
me where when I'm insecure I kind of
like externalize and I can be like
really hyperbolic unnecessarily
hyperbolic and it's counterproductive.
And she said to me listen like just
imagine your friends these are
hardworking people. They're trying their
best as well. They don't necessarily
know. Some some things have massively
worked out for them, but they would want
to do the right thing. There's people
you've worked with before that want to
do the right thing. And she's like, just
picture them and don't judge. You can
observe.
And it's crazy, but it's like I need
those little things. There's like
tweaks. It's like having a coach kind of
like
>> and that and that's very that's very
helpful to me.
>> Yeah. It's very important. It's hard to
do that yourself.
>> I can't do it.
>> And it's also like
>> I'm [ __ ] maxing. Like my life is like
I like that flow. Mhm.
>> And if if I didn't have somebody who
loved me and would hold me accountable,
I' just [ __ ] not think about it.
>> Yeah. And the opposite of that is
someone who's like an antagonistic
relationship. And we know a lot of
people that have those kind of very
sabotagey sort of marriages and
relationships. And that's crazy.
>> It's brutal.
>> It's brutal. And I don't think they've
ever had a really good one. Otherwise,
they would never tolerate that.
>> I didn't know what good looked like. So
you kind of just I think a lot of people
go with the flow. Like I mean I was a
nerdy kid from kind of a shitty [ __ ]
up kind of like family structure
and then I got injected into this rich
high school but then I got to go back to
an alcoholic father. I'm on [ __ ]
welfare. Like it's like you know my my
self-confidence is negative [ __ ] two
units.
>> Didn't have a girlfriend. You know like
all the [ __ ] in high school like nothing
happened for me. And so my modeling of
like how to be in a relationship, what
to do, it was [ __ ] zero.
Um, it was zero. And so all those
mistakes were mostly because I didn't
understand what good looked like,
>> right?
>> Um, and then I stumbled into this
relationship after my divorce and my
ex-wife is an incredible woman. Just
like not,
>> you know,
>> what you needed or what she needed.
>> Yeah. She's we're just we were in in in
a few very specific ways,
>> we just weren't on the same page.
And then I find this other one and it's
and I think like I don't I was so
skeptical. I'm like I I kind of viewed
like a relationship as like this adjunct
to your life. There's you you're at the
center. M
>> you're doing your [ __ ] and one of the
appendages to your thing is you're
that's what I thought and then now it's
the opposite where I feel like my wife's
at the center and I'm like I would
always kind of like like almost like
laugh at people in the in my mind I'm
like it's not possible that somebody
feels this way about somebody else.
>> Um but it's an it's an it's a huge
enabler. It's a it's a very much a gift.
So that can also be a thing that people
look for. You know what I mean? which is
>> I think what you're saying is that
there's a bunch of different things that
have to sort of exist together and that
it's not just completely focus on your
work but that focusing on these other
things enhances the work and then the
work enhances all these other things as
well and they all exist together
>> and my best work is when I'm not
thinking about the attention or the
money. Those are the two most corrupting
influences in my life. If I if when I
look back and when I've lost when I've
lost the most amount of money
>> or when I've reputationally hurt myself
the most,
>> it's all been because of attention and
money.
>> Those are the only two things the root
cause consistently has been that.
>> That makes sense because you're thinking
about a result rather than the process.
>> Exactly.
>> Yeah.
>> Exactly.
>> So, and then thinking about that result
like oo I'm going to get a lot of
attention from this. Oo, I'm going to
get a lot of money from this. That
actually robs you of the focus that you
need to concentrate on the process.
>> Exactly. And the the thing about the
process is that so much of that when
you're in a flow state you're proud of
>> irrespective of the size of it because
the meetings are the same. Do you know
what I mean? Like
>> you're in the same [ __ ] 35 minute
meeting or 45 minute meeting debating a
product or debating a thing.
But the minute that I start to feel like
embarrassed about company A versus
company B or decision A versus decision
B,
>> now my mind is like, "Okay, hold on a
second here. I'm about to run myself off
the cliff."
>> Yeah.
>> You know, or you know, we I had this
dinner last week and this is what's
amazing. Like
we're talking about poker. Well, I So
I'm having dinner with my wife and a
friend and uh
she's like, "How are you doing?" Just
like a very generic nice question,
>> right? And I go into this long [ __ ]
diet tribe of like, well, you know, the
investing thing this, and then I started
this other thing that. And my wife's
looking at me like, what the [ __ ] are
you rambling on about? And then it got
But it got worse, Joe. It got worse. It
got even [ __ ] worse. Then I'm like,
uh, you know, but then I had this poker
game. I started rambling on. It's
normally on Thursdays, but then I I
moved it up to Wednesdays, but then I
moved it up to the city because my
friend's having it. And then I name
dropped who the guy was. And my wife
just looks at me like, "What the [ __ ] is
going on with you?
So, the dinner ends. It was And then
she's like, "What the [ __ ] is going on
with you?" She's like, "That was
insane." And I had no idea that I was
doing it.
And I'm like, "Okay, we need to put
Humpty Dumpty back together again
because I'm about to go on Rogan and I
can't go off [ __ ] like a crazy wild
man." Uh, but it's a it's it's an
enormous gift. That's been my biggest
unlock in these last like eight or nine
years. Like I I feel like like I'm kind
of like adding skills to my toolkit. I
feel like a golfer like that's like I
can shape shots a little bit now. I know
how to use different clubs.
>> Um and it's all like mindset
>> and it's like it's very much what you
it's like this processoriented approach
>> and you just can't control the outcome
and that's like a it's a magical
feeling. It's interesting that you're
saying this because like think about
what most people or people that are on
social media like the kind of attention
that they're focusing on. Like this is
why virtue signaling is so unsuccessful,
right? It's so bad for it because it's
fake. You're really concentrating on the
process. Are you really concentrating on
the result? The result is getting people
to love you. Exactly. Getting people to
agree with you. Getting and then
worrying about the criticism. Oh my god,
they hate me. Oh my god, they're mad at
my my statement. Oh my god, they're this
and then you're like obsessing on it all
day. People that aren't even anywhere
near you. It's like it's one of the
absolute worst things for mental health
is this addiction that people have to
posting things and then reading the
responses to those posts and getting
wrapped up in these very weird
two-dimensional interactions with human
beings.
>> You never read your comments. I mean,
you're very famous. You're like, it
doesn't [ __ ] matter to me. Well,
you're going to get to a certain point
in time where if you have x amount of
people that follow you, you're going to
have a percentage that are mad at you
and those are the ones you're going to
think about, right?
>> And if you don't self audit, maybe
that's good. Maybe it's good to say
like, "You [ __ ] piece of shit." Like,
"Oh, I'm sorry." You know, like what
your wife saying to you like, "What the
[ __ ] was that?" Like, "Ah, shit." Like,
I am very self-critical. Very like
horribly so. like to the point I torture
myself, you know? So, I'm like, I don't
need that from other people. And also,
those people don't love me and they want
me to fail. Like, there's a lot of
people that their lives are very
unsuccessful and I've been way too
fortunate, right? So, it's like there's
a reason to be upset at me if your life
is [ __ ] because I've I've gotten I've
three of the best jobs on earth. It
doesn't make any sense, right? So,
there's a re and also why the [ __ ] is
this podcast so successful? That doesn't
make any sense, right? So, it's like I
get it. I understand why people, but I'm
not gonna help them. I'm not gonna help
them bring me down. I'm not gonna
indulge in it and ruin my own mind by
wallowing in their [ __ ] because the
only reason why you would do that in the
first place is if you're not together.
No one is healthy and happy and
intelligent is going to post mean things
about you. So, you are reading things
from people that are mentally ill,
unhappy, and probably not. Maybe they're
intelligent in terms of their ability to
solve certain issues and problems. Maybe
they're good at certain skills, but like
their overall grasp of humanity and like
being a good person is not good if
you're [ __ ] on people, especially if
you like add homonym attacks and just
insults. And
>> so, it's not a good thing to ingest.
It's not It's like if you go down the
supermarket, you see Twinkies, oh,
they're right there. Don't [ __ ] eat
them, okay? That's not good for you. And
so it's like I don't think that at a
certain point in time, especially if you
become publicly known and famous, you
should ever read your comments. I don't
think it's good for you.
>> Yeah.
>> But you better be self- auditing or
you'll start sniffing your own farts and
think they smell great. Like don't do
that either.
>> Yeah.
>> But you I know a lot of people that have
gone crazy reading their own comments.
I've met comedians that like they'll
think about it all day long. It will
[ __ ] with them. It will tort. Well,
their neurosis are what's what creates
great comedy to begin with. So, if you
feed that neurosis in the wrong way,
you're [ __ ]
>> The wrong way, right? And then also the
self-doubt creeps in because all these
people telling you you suck and they're
like, "Oh my god, I suck." And then you
go on stage with this like, "People
think I suck, they hate me." You can't
do that. Like, if you
have a certain amount of energy in the
day, this is what I always tell
comedians. I said, "Look, think of your
attention and your focus as a a unit.
You have a hundred units. If you spend
30 of those [ __ ] units on [ __ ]
online, you're robbing 30 units from all
the things you love. 30 units from your
family, 30 units from your friends, 30
units from your job, 30 units from golf
or poker or whatever it is that you love
to do. You're stealing your own time and
your own focus
>> for loers, right?
>> Like why would you do that? And those
losers are good people. They're just
they most people are good people. They
just a bad path. I would have been the
personing. Yeah. Yeah. Look, if you gave
me a [ __ ] Twitter account when I was
16, oh my god, it would have been
horrendous.
>> Yeah. I would have been going crazy.
>> Oh my god. I would have been a terrible
person. It's normal. Especially if your
life sucks and you're not doing well and
you're attacking famous people or you're
attacking this person that's doing
better than you or whatever it is.
>> Like it's Do you uh have you seen the
clips of the [ __ ] maxing?
>> No.
>> You don't know what this is?
>> No.
>> You don't know what this is?
>> No. What's [ __ ] maxing?
>> Oh, this guy is fantastic. He sits He
sits on his back porch. Jamie, can
Jamie, can you just show He sits He sits
on his back porch smoking a cigar
basically telling you everything's kind
of [ __ ] Stop thinking about [ __ ]
You know, if you don't like your
friends, leave them. If you don't like
your girlfriend, leave them. Stop
overthinking. Simplify your life. You
know, it's it's inc it's so simple, but
I think it's incredibly
>> Who is this guy?
>> Elisha Long, I think, is his name. I
don't know Jamie if you can find it. I
think Elisha
>> [ __ ] maxing is funny because I know
about looks maxing. We talked about that
recently on a podcast but that's
recently entered into my mind into my
zeitgeist. looks max.
>> That's the clvicular, but I've only
found out about that within the last few
months of life because I I genuinely
stay off social media as much as
possible. And if I do read things, what
I like to do, I like to focus on
fascinating things. Like a lot of my
time I spend looking at YouTube stuff
because YouTube stuff, my algorithm is
all like new black holes they've
discovered, you know, new discoveries in
terms of like what is the fabric of
reality? Like I'm that's interesting to
me. And if I just concentrate on people
being mean or shitty to each other or
the latest [ __ ] political drama, it's
like
>> what? I don't have much time. I'm busy.
I like things.
>> And
>> are you are you on like Instagram and
Tik Tok?
>> I'm on Instagram. I do not have a Tik
Tok. This is Luke Maxing. No, this is
[ __ ] maxing. So, let me hear what he
says.
>> Who's this guy? What's his name?
>> Elisha Long.
>> Shout out to Elisha. being used as a
poisoning of nostalgia,
but to simply remind you of what you
found it for. And as we grow up, we
often give that up for security. We give
that up so that we're accepted. We give
that up to flex and appear like we have
now figured things out, that people will
accept us.
The only way that you will truly be
successful is if you are righteous and
you live according to your nature and
you play, man, and you don't let people
take play away from you to to be at the
circus and be ooed and aed and worried
about all the [ __ ] Return to a
state of play.
>> Well, that's very good advice.
Return to [ __ ] max. The best thing
that you could do is return to a state
of play. That's true. There's a lot of
that, you know. There's a lot of that.
Absolutely.
>> Oh, I I I think that that is like a It's
a
>> It's a wise man for a young fella.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. He's a jiu-jitsu guy. There you
go. Look, he's getting his [ __ ] blue
belt there. Or he's getting his purple
belt. What is going on there? So, is he
getting his blue belt?
>> Yeah, it's his purple.
>> Yeah. So, they're taking his blue belt
off and putting his purple belt on.
Yeah. See, that's he's learning. He's a
martial artist. That's why.
>> You think martial arts people are just
more like spiritually connected to the
truth? I don't know if it's spiritually
connected to the truth. It's forced down
your [ __ ] throat because you can't
believe you're better than you are if
you're getting mauled every day,
you know? And there's only one way. This
guy's on the path to becoming a
jiu-jitsu black belt. Looks like a
pretty big guy, too. That'll help. Um,
but there's only one way to get a black
belt in jiu-jitsu. You got to train
jiu-jitsu all the time and get better at
jiu-jitsu. You can't pretend you're
better. You know, there's a lot of
people that write poems and they suck
and they think they're so deep.
>> Yeah. this poem
>> meaning like there's just a very simple
objective measurement that says
>> 100%. You either win or you lose. You
either tap or you get tapped out. You
know, you tap somebody or you get
>> Can you get a black belt in some gym
that's easier than a different gym or
something like that or
>> sort of kind of but not really. I mean,
everybody's trying hard. I mean, there's
definitely better gyms where they're
more technical and their program is much
more systematic and they're better at
breaking down skills like how to develop
skills, you know. Um there's definitely
better gyms. Uh there's better schools,
there's better places to learn, but
everywhere you learn, you're going to
have a bunch of people that are trying
hard like and you have a bunch of people
that are trying to learn these. And also
today because of the internet, you could
go on YouTube and there's thousands of
tutorials breaking down new moves.
Jiu-Jitsu is like endlessly comp.
>> One of my one of my kids has ADHD and
one of the things that was recommended
to us was jiu-jitsu.
>> Yeah. What is ADHD, man? It's not even
[ __ ] real cuz I definitely have it.
And I think I think it's a superpower.
>> I think we all have it.
>> I think I look I do not focus well on
things that I think are boring. But if
you give me something that that I love,
I can't I'll I'll play pool for [ __ ]
12 hours in a row.
>> It's crazy. But like the reason I got
back into golf is my seven-year-old gets
on the course and sometimes you can talk
to him and he's not making, you know,
he's like just like in his own world.
>> Exactly.
>> And then you start talking about chess
or jiu-jitsu or whatever and then we get
him on the golf course and this kid is
just dialed in.
>> Yeah. Superpower.
>> And I'm like, "Holy shit."
>> And they say that that's a disease.
That's crazy. Because if you find a
thing that that kid loves, he's going to
excel at it above and beyond most
humans.
>> We uh he does these chess classes and
like look, he's seven. So I'm like, "All
right, [ __ ] Bring it. [ __ ]
[ __ ] destroy you. I'm going to
[ __ ] ball you." And uh we're playing
last weekend and he goes, "Oh, Dad, you
know you can't castle out of check." I'm
like, "Shut the [ __ ] up. I know how this
game works." And I go on to beat him and
I and I went to my wife and I'm like,
he's six weeks away from beating me. I
got to go.
And then I spent I spent two days I
spent two [ __ ] days on YouTube and I
was like, "Okay, I got to brush up on my
openings and I got to I got Oh my god, I
don't have time for this [ __ ]
>> But I can't let this sevenyear-old beat
me.
>> You know what I mean? You're going to
have to."
>> And I'm like And I was like, "How do I
how do I stall this until maybe he's 10
or 11?" Then it's like, "Okay, fine. You
finally beat me. Congratulations.
>> You have to think of him as an extension
of you and be happy when he does.
>> Oh my god.
>> Yeah. That's just how it is. Look, if
you're a man and you have a son, I I
have all daughters, but if I had a son,
I would be legitimately terrified that
he'd be able to tap me. Because if I had
a son, one of the first things that I
would do is get them. I got my kids
involved in martial arts at an early
age, but I didn't force them to keep
doing it. They did it for a certain
amount of time, and then they went on to
do a bunch of other things that they
enjoy better,
>> which is fine. But I think it's good to
learn some skills, learn how to defend
yourself so you're not completely lost.
Just it's I think it's good for you.
It's good to learn. It's good to develop
confidence. But for boys, I think it's
critical, you know, especially boys with
my kind of DNA. I'm like, I think it's
good to get that [ __ ] out of your
system. But if I had a son, there'd be a
certain point in time. I'm like, it's a
matter of time before this [ __ ]
can kill me. You know, it's like I mean,
I'm 58 years old. If I had a 20-year-old
kid, like, he'd probably kill me.
>> Kick your ass.
>> Probably [ __ ] kill me.
>> He'd kick your ass. Yeah. It's like what
am I going to do? There's nothing you
can do. You just have to accept it and
then hope your relationship with him is
strong enough that he still respects you
even though he can kill you because it
can't be entirely ba. Look, there's a
lot of martial arts instructors that are
old and they're revered and respected
and nobody wants to try to hurt them,
right? Because you realize if you learn
enough, you get to a certain point in
time, you realize like
>> I'm a much better dad to my sons than I
am my daughters. And I mean this in the
following way. My daughters have the run
of the place. Whatever they want, I'm in
love with them. I don't love them. I'm
in love with them. Whatever they need,
what they can just
>> enamored by.
>> They're just like they can control me.
They just kind of send me in one
direction or another. I'm just like
they're I'm like,
>> by the way, they know that, too.
>> I'm enslaved by them.
>> Yes.
>> You know, and I just want their
attention. Any small little shred, I'm
like,
>> boo your son, you keep them in check.
>> Whereas like my sons, I keep the I'm
doing everything that I was supposed I
think I'm supposed to be doing. Now, the
good news is my, you know, daughters are
just different. Like, they're girls.
They're just, so they don't need the
same kind of like tough loveish,
>> right?
>> You know, but then my boys reveal their
characteristics in ways that really
surprise me. And I'm just like, man,
this is so [ __ ] awesome. Parenting
has been the best. Like, when I again,
like slowing down and actually being in
it,
>> and I'm like, [ __ ] this is amazing.
>> It is pretty amazing. And watching your
kids get really good at things is really
fascinating. It's fascinating. I told
you this story before, but like you know
my son, my oldest son, this is my
17-year-old. It's just a great kid.
He goes and he's like, "Okay, I'm
applying for college." And I'm like,
"Great. Let me take you to the Naval
Academy, West Point. Let me show you
these servicemies." And he sees those
and he's like, "These are incredible."
But then he's like, "I think I want to
go to like, you know, Georgetown or
Vanderbilt or whatever." And I'm like,
"Hey man, that's like um just a bigger
version of your high school and
whatever. if that's what you want to do,
you do you. And you know, um, but you
know, my the I'll help you like kind of
get to the starting line here, but
you're on your own. And he had to get a
job because I'm like, if you're going to
get into these schools, you got to get a
job. And so he tries to
last summer, I just started [ __ ]
screaming at him. And I'm like, you
[ __ ] louse, you haven't done
anything. And this is at like another
kid's at our at our son's birthday
party. I scream at him. He starts
crying. I'm like, "You need to do more."
Then my wife screams at him. He starts
crying again. Then my ex-wife screams at
him. He starts crying again.
And he just goes, "I'm out of here." He
walks out. Meanwhile, I start panicking
and I'm like, "I got to tiger dad this
situation." So, I start texting a few
friends trying to figure out, "Hey, can
I, you know, do you guys want to hire
this kid? He's like really, you know,
he's pretty smart kid. Did all this
stuff in robotics, yada yada." One of
them says, "I'd be willing to interview
him." I call him and he's like, "Dad, I
got a job." I said, 'What do you mean
you got a job? Said, 'I went around
downtown,
went to all these places and I was in a
McDonald's and um the woman was having a
little bit of difficulty speaking
English, so I just booked her in
Spanish. I got the application. I sat
down at the desk and the guy having
lunch beside me said, "Hey, I heard you
needed a job and uh I really like the
way you talked to this woman. I'm the
general manager of the car wash down the
street. Come and work for me."
And I said, "Well, what are you going to
do?" He goes, "I'm going to go work
there." And I said, "Okay, well, I got
this other interview for you as well, so
you should see maybe you can do both."
Anyways, the end of the story is he did
he did these two jobs. He worked at a
robotics firm, but then he worked at a
car wash. And when I tell you this
story, I am so proud of this kid because
of the car wash. Because that car wash
thing, he was he would come home and
he's like, "Man, you have no idea how
people live." And I'm like, "What do you
mean?" He's like, "The stuff that I find
in the trunk when I have to vacuum these
cars and clean out the cars." And I'm
like, "Bro, that is a gift. You have
given a [ __ ] gift. That is the thing
that if you take with you, you'll be
golden the rest of your life." Because
all this other [ __ ] is all kind of
manufactured. I help because I'm
anxious. I'm insecure. Mhm.
>> But that [ __ ] you did on your own. And
that thing is what people will [ __ ]
respect when push comes to shove.
>> It's also jobs that suck are really good
for you.
>> So good. I used to work at Burger King
when I was 14.
>> Man, let me tell you.
>> You were 14 and you had a job.
>> When my dad had to stay behind like we
were my dad was a diplomat in the
embassy of Sri Lanka in Canada. This
[ __ ] war in Sri Lanka is crazy. He
writes this essay. His life is
threatened. So he files for refugee
status. He gets it.
He gets kicked out of the embassy. So he
doesn't have a job. My mom becomes a
housekeeper
and we're kind of toiling in this
poverty cycle. So 14 you have to I had
to get a job and I would take the money
and you know we buy I buy the bus
passes. I would buy some of the
groceries. We just trying to make it all
work right. And uh I got a job at the
Burger King.
This is another example where I was
like, I'm going to go get a job. Hey,
can you drive me to the interview? And
my dad's like, "No,
get on your [ __ ] bicycle and go." And
I thought, "Bro, we need this. You need
the money more than I do. Why are you
making me bicycle?" But I bicycled and I
got the job and I worked there. And I
used to work the night shift.
14-year-old kid, man. Wow.
>> From [ __ ] 8 till 2 in the morning.
And I would have to clean this like 8:00
p.m. to 2 in the morning.
>> Then you had to go to school in the
morning.
>> No, then I this was always like Friday,
Saturday, Sunday.
>> Wow.
>> Thursday, Friday. Sorry. Thursday,
Friday, Saturday. And then Yeah. Some
days I would have to go to school. But
And why did I work until two? Because
when the restaurant closes,
you get whatever the food is left over,
right? So like you get a couple chicken
sandwiches, you get like the, you know,
the the version of the McNuggets that
Burger King had, a couple whoppers, and
you take them home.
But the amount of vomit that I had to
clean up the bathroom, you can't
imagine, man, the a downtown Burger King
near bars, you know, after closing time,
the [ __ ] you see.
>> Oh, wow.
>> And the [ __ ] you deal with. And all I
could think of was like, I just want to
get the [ __ ] out of here. But that was
so valuable for me.
>> Yeah,
>> that was so valuable for me. Um,
and then I worry that my, you know, kids
don't get exposed to it, but when my son
got it, maybe I'm overimposing too much
about it, but it's like I'm like, man,
that that car wash thing is really going
to be the thing that separates you in
life.
>> Yeah. Doing something that sucks. It it
also
>> just being humble and grinding through
that [ __ ] you know? Do you realize like
this is sometimes people they don't pick
a path and they just have a job and they
don't like it and they stay with this
thing they don't like forever and that's
not what you want.
>> No,
>> it's not what you want. But the
development like the learning how to do
something that sucks and grinding
through it
>> and still doing it well.
>> Yeah. You know, doing it well.
>> Make a make a Whopper. Be there on top.
>> I know how to [ __ ] make a Whopper.
>> Yeah.
>> Do you know what I mean?
>> Yeah.
uh make the fries, change the oil, all
that [ __ ]
>> And then when you apply that those
lessons to something you actually love
and you work hard at something you love,
>> magical.
>> Oh, it's incredible. It's a real gift.
>> It's a real gift.
>> Yeah. I mean, you know, some people they
don't appreciate the process, you know,
and it's hard to because like when
you're young and you're going through
these difficult jobs and these things
that suck and you don't know how it's
going to turn out, you know, and a lot
of times people aren't really educated
in what a process actually is and about
how it does develop character and it
does develop discipline and that these
things are actual skills that you can
apply to other things in life. You just
think, "God, I'm a [ __ ] loser." I
have a I have a visual for this. I
always ask myself, am I in the engine
room right now?
>> This is my way of saying like an engine
room is a little hot. It's a little
uncomfortable, but it's where all the
[ __ ] is happening. It's where the [ __ ]
is being made.
>> And so I'm like, it's a little, you
know, discomforting,
>> but I got to be in there. And there are
days where, and there'll be weeks
>> where that's all I do. I'm just in it,
you know? I don't I'm not good at
responding to emails sometimes or
whatever because there'll just be weeks
where I'm in it and it's an incredible
visual for me because I'm like yeah this
is like where like I'm grounded
>> and I like feel myself and then when I
when I look at my like my health
that's when like I just feel like really
good about myself like not insecure and
my vitals are different like it's crazy
like my [ __ ] HRV like my HRV
craters
when I'm like just like you know
insecure
>> of course
>> but why is that like it's it's your it's
your heart rate variability should have
nothing to do with your like
>> disposition and your mood
>> well your mind is the idea that your
mind is separate from the body is crazy
>> it's crazy
>> it's not and
>> but is your HRV lower when you're just
out of sorts
>> yes probably right
>> I'm sure yeah I don't really monitor it
that much Yeah.
>> And I'm I try not to ever get out of
sorts, too. And one of the ways that I
keep from getting out of sorts is daily
discipline. Like it's if I if I have
days where I'm sure it gets out of sorts
if I have a few days in a row where I
don't work out, but I I work out almost
every day. And if I'm not working out,
I'm still cold plunging and going to the
sauna and stretching. I'm always doing
something. And if I don't do something,
I feel like I'm [ __ ] up. And then
then I can
>> So, does it matter what it is? Meaning,
as long as it's a routine.
>> Yeah. Well, I I do it all myself. I
don't have a trainer, but I write things
down. I write down what I want to
accomplish. I write down what I'm going
to do, and then I just do it. I like a
robot force myself to do it.
>> Yeah.
>> And then I always feel better after it's
over. And it's always the hardest part
of my day.
>> Yeah. And so it makes everything else so
much easier because it's I [ __ ] work
out hard
>> and so everything else is pretty easy,
>> you know, because the strain like just
being in that [ __ ] cold water or just
going through Tabatas on a a dye bike
like this shit's hard. It's really hard.
Like I could die right now hard. And so
everything else is like how how hard's
it going to be? Oh, it's uncomfortable.
Oh boohoo, you know? Like I think it's
important to go through that. I I really
think it is, you know? I really think it
is and that that's a the difference
between,
>> you know, sanity and like having a very
slippery grip on your your own personal
sovereignty. I think a lot of it is like
you have to choose it. It has to be like
elective
voluntary adversity. Like you have to
choose to do it.
>> Yeah. I that's a really great way of
saying it. Voluntary adversity. If it's
forced upon you,
>> you can kind of compartmentalize
>> and then you get angry like [ __ ] this
bitter and resentful making me do stupid
[ __ ] But if you force yourself to do
it, you know,
>> this why these special forces guys are
such [ __ ] animals.
>> Of course,
>> they're choosing,
>> right? Exactly. And they develop that,
you know, this mentality when you're
around other people that are also
savages. You know, you just you realize
like there's other people out there in
the world that are not making excuses.
they are getting after it every day and
they are pushing every day. And the more
you can surround yourself with people
like that, the more people the people
that complain about nonsense and the
find excuses and focus on other people
and [ __ ] about things and why is she
doing this? Why is this happening for
him?
>> Yeah,
>> it's loser mentality. And if you're
around more winners, you know, you
absorb that. You imitate your
atmosphere. Yeah, it's very important
and it's very hard for people,
especially young people, to find
positive influences and to find positive
groups. And I think it's one of the
reasons why a lot of young people
gravitate towards podcast because they
get to hear interesting conversations
with really accomplished people that are
fascinating that are unlike anybody that
they're around on a daily basis,
>> you know. And that that's also one of
the reasons why it's important to find
some that's why martial arts are so good
for young people because you're around
other people that are doing this really
difficult thing and other sports too
whether it's football or wrestling
whatever it is.
>> I actually found like you know the last
few years I go out of my way to not
isolate myself. That's one thing like
being around other people engaging in
things.
>> Yes.
>> Has been really healthy for me.
>> Oh for sure.
>> Oh my god. And I just found like what
the [ __ ] am I doing? It's like
everything is in my little house by
myself with everybody everything comes
to me. It's so odd.
>> It's odd. It's really odd. Very
unhealthy.
>> And it starts to [ __ ] you up in the
bind.
>> And then your interaction with humans is
only on the internet. It's terrible. You
know,
>> or with people that are sickantically
either being paid or need something from
you.
>> Yeah.
>> And then I think you're in a really bad
place.
>> Absolutely.
>> Whereas like if you're in the grind with
other people, they're beating you at
things. It's great.
>> Yeah. Yeah, if you're in a situation
where there's a bunch of sickopantically
connected people to you and they're just
all kissing your ass and I mean we all
know people that are like the heads of
companies and that are just like [ __ ]
tyrants.
>> I think the the the the trap about being
successful because it's not everything
it's wrapped up to be is exactly that.
You become so isolated that you become
this like very caricaturous version of
yourself
>> because you forget what it's like to
just a basic example like wait in line,
be kind to other people, be polite, like
be accommodating, have some empathy,
>> right?
>> Where are you put in that situation to
do those things,
>> right? You forget that you're just a
person.
>> You're just a [ __ ] person.
>> And if you achieve some level of success
that you're trying to you're trying to
achieve this level of success so you
elevate past being a person, you're
missing the point. like you're never
going to and if you do it'll come at a
price.
>> I thought being successful was supposed
to write all the wrongs that I felt like
I missed
and it turns out nobody gives a [ __ ]
>> No.
>> And it does none of that.
>> I think it's all the process. The all of
life is the process.
>> I agree.
>> I think as soon as you think that
there's a goal like, "Oh, I'm going to
retire and experience my golden years."
I think it's all horseshit. And that's
one of my main fears about AI. My my
main one of my main fears about this
idea of universal high income and
everyone's going to have, you know,
ultimate abundance. It's like where does
anybody find purpose and meaning? And
where do the where do you take whatever
this thing is that the mind is
constructed of these these needs that
the mind has that have to be satisfied
in order to achieve sanity? in order to
achieve some sort of like place where
you can be at peace,
>> fulfillment.
>> Yeah, you have to do you're going to
have to do something, man. You're going
to have to do something. And I mean,
maybe it could just be jiu-jitsu and
golf and find some stuff that you enjoy
doing and take some benefit in that. But
boy, that's not been the case for
hundreds of years. You know, that's not
how human beings have exist. I mean, but
also part of me says, why do we have to
work to find those things? Why can't we
why why is it all that?
>> Well, you got to find the thing that's
not work,
>> right? But but I'm getting at is like
why is our identity all tied up in money
and and and and
just things and objects and stuff. And
this is a fairly new thing in human
society, right?
>> Why can't it transform into
m like your basic needs are all met?
Like nobody ever has to worry about
starving again. Nobody ever has to worry
about not having a home to sleep in.
Nobody ever has to worry about not
having healthcare. Nobody ever has to
worry about not having education. So
then it becomes find a purpose with your
life. And as a society, can we adjust?
Can we gravitate towards a new way of
existing in meaning? And it would
probably be great. In one way, it'd be
great because we wouldn't have to be
constantly thinking, why does he have
that and I don't have that and this and
that. Instead, it would probably be
like, what can I do to get better at the
thing that I love, right?
>> What you know, and
>> or let me be a part of a project to do
something that seems implausible,
>> but I feel like I'm in the engine room
every day. This is great. I'm toiling
with these guys. probably not going to
work. Some crazy convoluted thing that
has a .01 chance of success
>> that can captivate a lot of people.
>> Yes. You know,
>> the process.
>> The process.
>> Yeah.
>> The process.
>> The process is everything. And there's
no I used to like think backward.
>> There is no attention in the process,
>> right?
>> There's only attention in the outcome,
>> right?
>> Do you see what I mean?
>> Absolutely.
>> Which is another clue and a secret that
that's actually where you should be
focused.
>> Well, you might get attention, but
that's not what you want. What you want
is the process to work out. You you want
to get better at whatever it is you're
doing and get that thing to a better
place than it is right now currently.
Right. That's what you're thinking of.
You're not thinking of I am going to get
all this attention. I'm going to be on
the cover of a magazine.
Yeah. Can't It can't be that. That's not
good for anybody. But everybody thinks
that's what they're going to get. Oh,
I'm going to get this.
>> Everybody thinks that's what they want.
>> Yeah. Right.
>> And the problem with that is that it's
not what you want.
>> No.
And then now we're going to completely
upend
potentially all of that.
>> Yeah. Well, maybe it'll come inside
it'll come it'll coincide with the hive
mind technology.
>> This hive mind thing actually that you
say I find very compelling because this
idea of like how do you govern an AI?
Each of us individually are not capable,
but I think you, me, like 10,000, 100
thousand people working together.
The question is, are we smarter?
And I think there's a reasonable chance
that that could be true. And then the
other version of the hive mind is here
are all these like crazy ideas that
would just make the world incredible.
And a group of a thousand people go off
and they kind of jointly work on that
together. That I find super fascinating.
Like I that could be it. Like it could
be like, you know, a thousand physicists
are like, "We're going to create this
new interstellar form of
transportation." And they just go off
and they're just like they don't have to
worry about
existing because all of that's paid for.
>> Well, it also could solve all of our
problems that we have with like halves
and have nots. If we're all one, how
could we tolerate haveotss? How could we
tolerate people living on dirt floors in
third world countries with no access to
clean water? We wouldn't tolerate it
tolerate
>> because we they would be us and we would
understand that.
>> Yeah.
>> I mean it could be like a complete
gamecher in terms of human civilization.
It could really move people into a
complete next direction. I mean it could
eliminate crime and violence. Yeah.
>> Which sounds insane. Like boy that's so
utopian. Like oh why don't you suck on
some crystals you [ __ ] hippie. But
legitimately if look if everybody has a
cell phone which essentially everybody
does right right now in this time and
age. If we get to a point where
everybody is connected, everybody is
hive mind connected, you're there's
we're all you're not going to just be
able to drive by a homeless encampment,
>> right?
>> You won't you'll feel it. You'll feel
it. It won't be like, "Hey, you [ __ ]
losers. Hit the gas." It's going to be
like, "We need to solve this. We need to
get these people counseling, mental
health crisis, get them off the drugs,
whatever it is that's wrong with them."
>> I mean, that's an incredible idea.
>> Yeah. You know, like when an airplane
kind of like goes like this and your
stomach goes and you just feel it.
>> Could you imagine like you drive by a
homeless encampment and that's what you
feel? Like you feel like
>> something's wrong.
>> And we'll all feel it collectively. If
we're all connected and we all feel
things connectively, we will actively
work together to solve these problems.
And if we're dealing with a if if we
really get to a point of abundance, like
true abundance, where resources are not
an issue and no one's starving, we could
really fix all the problems that like
>> none of them are insurmountable. None of
them are breathing underwater, right?
None of them are flying to the sun. None
of them, right? So all of them are
things that could be if we took all the
world's resources, socialism doesn't
work, right? Why does it not work?
because it rewards lazy people and it
punishes ambitious people. It's not
doesn't doesn't work with human nature,
but it would work if you have [ __ ]
hive mind. If we all we all understand
what it means to put in effort. We all
understood what what each other are
feeling and thinking,
>> right?
>> And we all compiled resources and fixed
all of our social problems. Like
literally stop all wars, stop all crime,
stop all violence, stop all poverty.
Done. And then what do we do? We work
together to solve whatever the [ __ ] else
is wrong with you society.
>> Well, it's more like what is left over
that we haven't figured out.
>> Think about what the world was like
before the internet. It's almost
impossible to imagine, but we both grew
up without it.
>> Yeah.
>> And Yeah. And so we're entering into
this new world. Think about what world
was like without the hive mind, but yet
we all grew up without it. Like that
might be the next thing. The thing that
I remember the most about that era is I
had a positive sum view of everybody
>> really.
>> Meaning there weren't like the the bad
actors were pretty bad but yeah
generally like I looked up to most
business people like the people that I
now I feel like have been a little bit
unmasked then to me were pristine.
>> Oh that's interesting.
>> Like the Bill Gateses of the world, you
know. I was like man I really aspire to
be Bill Gates when I was like 13 or 14.
It just seemed like
>> now you're like, why is he buying all
the farmland? This [ __ ] weirdo.
>> I mean, it's a [ __ ] so funny. He uh
he bought this like 45,000 acres in
4,500 acres. I can't get the order of
magnet right uh in Phoenix to build his
own digital city.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay.
>> It's like weird. So, I bought the 1700
acres beside him.
>> That's hilarious.
>> [ __ ] you.
>> It's a very odd thing. It's a very odd
thing when people get exposed and you
just go like what the [ __ ] is that guy
really all about
>> and but also like how isolated is he?
>> Oh, he's been he's been isolated for 50
years,
>> right? Like who are his friends and how
how many people does he have?
>> Must be very hard to be him actually. I
I mean
>> especially now that he's divorced,
right? So now he's got no one going but
that speech [ __ ] sucked.
>> Yeah, he's I mean he has a long-term
partner. Um she seems like a lovely
woman. Um, but yeah, it's just got to be
super lonely.
>> It's got to be.
>> It's not I to me it's not worth that
level of I don't even know what is it.
It's like material success at least
measured in the outside world. I don't
know what it is, but it's not
it's a lot, man. This is like I like I
don't know how Elon does it. Like it's a
lot. It's super isolating.
>> Yeah.
>> It's it's just he's very by himself.
>> Mhm.
>> And he's going to be even more isolated
in a matter of a few months.
>> Yeah. And that's unfortunate because you
have very empathetic, very kind of like
sensitive people like that I think need
other people.
>> Well, he's got people around him, but
he's got very few people around him that
can kick reality at him.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, that that is a bit of a
problem, but he still seems to be having
fun. Every time I'm around him, we have
a bunch of laughs. Like, he's fun to
hang out.
>> He's got an incredible sense of humor.
We um Jamie and I went down uh to one of
the rocket launches at SpaceX. Yeah, we
went down there crazy
>> and we watched from the ground while I
took off, which is incredible cuz it's
like how far was it, Jamie? It was like
two miles away from us.
>> A mile mile and a half.
>> So like it's a mile and a half. You feel
it in your chest. Have you been when a
when a rocket launches? You been there,
dude? It's bananas. The [ __ ] thing
like first of all, it doesn't look that
far. It looks like it's like
>> maybe quarter mile. it. I don't I'm just
not good at judging.
>> This is a starship.
>> Oh yeah. So you feel it.
You like his kids started crying like we
want to go inside. Like it's disturbing
like the amount of energy that's coming
out of these [ __ ] rocket boosters.
And then I hung out with him in the
command center while the rocket was
flying through space and we're watching
it on all these monitors and then lands
in the water in Australia. He's cracking
jokes the whole time because the thing
is like losing pressure because it's
they're stress testing all the stuff
which is really funny when really dumb
people, oh he's a [ __ ] dumbass, his
rockets keep blowing up. Like like they
just don't understand like the only way
you find out what the capability of this
technology is is you have to like let it
blow up and then you go, "Okay, it needs
to be thicker. It needs to be this and
that and we need to add these things and
there's sensors everywhere." And so he's
cracking jokes the entire time while
this thing is like losing pressure. And
it eventually wound up landing and it
was fine, but it did have a hole in it.
But it was just like he's laughing like
he's having a good old time. He's not
freaked out. No,
>> you know, he he's uniquely built to
handle it.
>> I uh when there was a rocket launch in
Vraenberg in California and I chartered
a Pilates and I because you can get like
a little like propeller plane.
>> Oh, okay. And I went around and around
and I have this video of it kind of like
coming up and through cuz like
>> how close were you?
>> 100 miles.
>> Oh wow.
>> But you but it's like right there.
>> Uhhuh.
>> You know cuz the distance and it's
coming up and I'm kind of going around.
It was the craziest thing. It was cool.
It was super cool.
>> That [ __ ] is super cool.
>> It's very cool. It's very cool. I mean
just Starbase is bananas. Just when you
go down there and they have their own
town, the whole thing is straight.
There's [ __ ] cyber trucks everywhere.
I'm like, how do you find your car?
Like,
>> is it is it an incorporated town? It
started off as unincorporated, but it
own thing now.
>> I believe it's its own town. And
>> is there a mayor?
>> That's a good question. I think there
is. I think we talked about this. I
don't remember though. But the actual
factory itself is nuts cuz I Jamie and I
were both like, "This is way bigger than
I thought it was going to be." And the
rockets are way bigger than you thought.
And like the garage doors are [ __ ]
bananas.
>> They got a city government website
commission mayor.
>> That's crazy.
>> Bobby Bobby Peted. Bobby Peted is the
mayor.
>> They have their own little Bobby. That's
awesome.
>> Irish pub and it's like it's really
cool. They have really good food. you
know, when he uh when he opened the
first uh Gigafactory, which was in
Nevada, we had a party and uh like it
was like a small opening thing and so we
all drove in there and I have a video of
me in a just like a pickup truck driving
into the thing. I started the video and
I think it was 43 seconds until it
ended. And this is like, you know, a
decade ago and I thought to myself, this
is implausible. Like I've never even
contemplated things that could be built
this big. I didn't think it was allowed.
I don't even know how something like
this works.
>> And I was like, how does how do you
envision this whole thing works? Like
simple.
>> Raw materials in the front, cars out the
back.
I'm like, that's it. It sounds so
simple.
>> Well, he thinks big.
>> He thinks big. And thank God he's
around. I mean, if he wasn't around, if
he hadn't purchased Twitter, I think our
entire civilization would look very
different.
>> Very different.
>> It would. I mean, that sounds like a
very grandiose thing to say.
>> Sounds hyperbolic, but you're right.
>> I think it's true because I don't I
think free speech is a core component of
our civilization, and I don't really
think we had it.
>> I think it was curated, and it was very
tightly controlled by the actual federal
government, which is spooky.
>> No, no. It decided what we should be
paying attention to. Yes.
>> Just just put it very simply without
kind of like
>> And that's not right.
>> Right. Because when they're telling you
to pay attention to this and the actual
issue is this and you cannot, then you
can't fix what's actually broken,
>> right?
>> And you start to we start to basically
be like we're we're part of just a a
useful idiot for these people.
>> Yes.
>> And that's not right.
>> It's not right.
>> Listen, man. This was a lot of fun. It's
always great to talk to you. Thank you
very much for doing this. It was very
cool. Um let's do it again sometime. All
right. Thank you. All right. Bye,
everybody.