[00:01] Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.
[00:03] >> The Joe Rogan Experience.
[00:06] >> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY
[00:08] NIGHT. All day.
[00:12] >> Yeah, I was listening to Tim. First of
[00:14] all, hello.
[00:15] >> What's up?
[00:15] >> Good to see you, my friend.
[00:16] >> Great to see you.
[00:17] >> Uh, we were listening to Tim Dylan. I I
[00:19] was listening to on the way over here
[00:21] and he was talking about uh Anna Paulina
[00:23] Luna and Tim Bchett and Trump. They're
[00:26] all talking about the UAP disclosures
[00:28] and like why now? Like what are they
[00:31] doing? Like why are they distracting us
[00:32] with this? Timberchet said that whatever
[00:35] they're going to release it will be
[00:37] indigestible.
[00:39] >> What does that mean?
[00:40] >> Right.
[00:41] >> Indigestible as in or well then it
[00:44] doesn't mean that it's real then.
[00:46] >> Well, I think it means that it'll be so
[00:48] crazy if it's real. So crazy. He's the
[00:51] one that's been saying that there's
[00:52] these confirmed bases under the ocean,
[00:56] that there's these specific locations. I
[00:58] think you talked you're shaking your
[01:00] head. You don't believe a word of it.
[01:01] >> No.
[01:02] >> How come?
[01:02] >> I think I think it's true that there
[01:05] look,
[01:07] it's completely implausible that there
[01:10] aren't other species,
[01:11] >> right?
[01:12] >> Completely implausible.
[01:14] >> Just the vastness of what we're dealing
[01:16] with. So the real question is like why
[01:18] haven't we encountered people or those
[01:21] things those beings,
[01:22] >> right?
[01:23] >> And it's probably because they just they
[01:25] have bigger fish to fry, you know? So by
[01:28] the time that we meet them and they meet
[01:30] us, we're we're going to kind of be at
[01:32] the edge of like we've we've kind of
[01:34] been there done that on our own planet
[01:37] and then we've kind of like developed
[01:38] the technology I guess to get beyond it.
[01:41] Um but somewhere along the way there
[01:43] must have been a few just mathematically
[01:45] impossible. So then the question is, is
[01:46] it buried? Or were people confused when
[01:48] it first came here? Like if you had a
[01:50] spaceship land in like the 1800s,
[01:52] >> right?
[01:52] >> What would people have done? They would
[01:54] have just freaked out. They wouldn't
[01:56] have understood it. Maybe they would
[01:57] have buried it. Depending on where it
[01:58] was, maybe they started to pray to it,
[02:00] >> right?
[02:01] >> And you would have just moved on. And
[02:03] then that isn't documented in history.
[02:05] So,
[02:05] >> but it is.
[02:06] >> But how?
[02:07] >> It is. There's a lot of it documented in
[02:09] history.
[02:10] >> Oh, you mean like hieroglyphics and like
[02:12] monuments?
[02:12] >> Well, the book of Ezekiel. The book of
[02:14] Ezekiel goes in depth about some sort of
[02:16] a UFO encounter that Ezekiel
[02:19] experiences,
[02:20] >> right?
[02:20] >> Where it's a wheel within a wheel and a
[02:24] a cloud with fire flashing forth
[02:26] continually in the midst of a cloud as
[02:28] it were gleaming metal and from the
[02:30] midst of it came the likeness of four
[02:32] living creatures and the creatures
[02:34] darted to and fro like the appearance of
[02:36] a flash of lightning. This is all in the
[02:38] Bible. Um it's also in the Mahabarada.
[02:41] Um they they talk about vaymanas these
[02:44] flying crafts and
[02:46] >> I think it's entirely possible that we
[02:48] have been visited periodically
[02:51] >> and that we are we have been monitored
[02:53] and that we are monitored.
[02:54] >> I agree
[02:55] >> currently.
[02:56] >> I agree.
[02:56] >> And if I was going to hide, I would hide
[02:58] in the ocean.
[02:59] >> Well, to be honest, as I get older, I'm
[03:01] convinced
[03:03] >> we're basically in some form of a
[03:05] simulation. There's like all these
[03:07] little ingredients
[03:08] >> that if you start to see these little
[03:10] clues, you're like,
[03:12] >> they all seem so odd in isolation and
[03:14] then when you put them together, I feel
[03:15] like a crazy person. So, I ignore
[03:17] myself,
[03:17] >> right?
[03:18] >> But I wonder like why did this happen?
[03:19] Like yesterday, I was um at a dinner in
[03:22] LA before I came to see you. And um I
[03:26] told this very interesting story. Well,
[03:28] or I thought it was interesting at the
[03:29] time. Um
[03:31] you know that like so in 2000, right? If
[03:34] you think of like what happened in tech
[03:36] since 2000, so the last 26 years,
[03:40] people can give you all kinds of like
[03:41] fancy theories,
[03:44] but there's just like this weird
[03:47] word that's been at the center of every
[03:50] single technological revolution for the
[03:53] last 30 years. And that word is
[03:55] attention. Let me explain this to you.
[03:58] Google, they invent Google. What is
[04:00] Google? Google is a algorithm. It's
[04:03] called page rank. But if you look inside
[04:06] of it, what is it? It says, "Well,
[04:07] Chimath's website has five links to it.
[04:11] Joe's website has two links. He's
[04:13] getting more attention." Okay, Chimath's
[04:16] website is more important. That's the
[04:17] sum total of Google. Now, they've made
[04:19] that a lot more refined and they've done
[04:21] all these other fancy things,
[04:24] but it's all about attention. Mhm.
[04:26] >> Fast forward to 2007 89 when you know
[04:29] Zuck and then when I went to work for
[04:31] Zuck and we got on the scene and we're
[04:32] like what do everybody what does
[04:34] everybody care about? Attention. And so
[04:38] what is like the Facebook algorithm?
[04:40] What's the Instagram algorithm? You know
[04:42] how did we construct newsfeed all around
[04:45] attention? Joe had 35 likes. Jamie had
[04:47] 12 likes. Your thing is more important.
[04:49] Let's give it more more importance
[04:51] because it's seemingly meeting all these
[04:53] human needs. Attention. Attention.
[04:55] attention. So phase one attention, phase
[04:58] two attention, and this is where I'm
[05:01] like, how can this be possible? In phase
[05:02] three, we're like looking at AI. And
[05:05] when you look backwards four years, the
[05:06] seminal paper is called attention is all
[05:08] you need. It's about this word again.
[05:12] And when you look inside of the core
[05:15] part, if you peel out peel, you know,
[05:17] apart AI,
[05:19] the little brain that makes it so
[05:21] capable, it's called an attention
[05:23] mechanism. It's just attention. It's all
[05:25] about again this idea of I'm gonna scour
[05:28] all this information and I'm gonna
[05:30] figure out what patterns repeat itself
[05:31] and I'm just going to double down on the
[05:33] stuff that I see more of because that
[05:35] attention must mean it's more important.
[05:37] It's more true. It's more knowledgeable
[05:40] and then I think how could it be like
[05:42] we're all like why is it that these
[05:44] things are just repeating over and over
[05:46] again? And I just get confused. I don't
[05:48] I don't exactly know how to explain it.
[05:50] So are there other ways in which we
[05:52] should be doing things? Absolutely. Have
[05:54] we even explored it? No. So then I
[05:56] think, well, is this just a simulation?
[05:57] Some kid in a [ __ ] in his house just
[06:00] playing some simulation and we're all
[06:01] just party to it and that's all he
[06:03] understands is attention. I don't know.
[06:05] >> I don't think it's that simple that
[06:07] there's a person playing a game. But if
[06:10] you break down just attention, well,
[06:12] that's all of human history is paying
[06:16] attention to the king, paying attention
[06:18] to the war, paying attention to
[06:21] resources, paying attention to who says
[06:23] the thing that resonates the most with
[06:25] the people. It's all about what human
[06:28] beings are paying attention to.
[06:30] >> I think it's part of it. Then there's
[06:32] also what is actually true. And I think
[06:36] sometimes what is true and what people
[06:37] pay attention to are not the same thing.
[06:40] >> True.
[06:41] >> And sometimes the thing that you should
[06:44] be paying attention to gets lost because
[06:47] the thing that you are paying attention
[06:48] to gets more attention because it's more
[06:50] interesting and useful. That's sort of
[06:53] where we are right now. We're in this
[06:54] really weird phase, I think, where
[06:57] you actually like should be focused on
[07:00] this thing over here and instead we're
[07:02] all focused on all these things over
[07:04] here. or give me an example.
[07:06] >> Um,
[07:08] here's like a very big one. I think like
[07:11] it's pretty fair to say since the last
[07:13] time you and I saw each other on this
[07:14] show,
[07:16] the attitude towards technology, I
[07:20] think, has been pretty profoundly
[07:22] negative. It's kind of tilted. It's
[07:24] relatively like anti-AI,
[07:27] you know, anti-billionaires. It's anti-
[07:29] all of this stuff.
[07:31] Um, and it manifests in all of these
[07:36] interesting ways. There's protests,
[07:37] there's data centers, there's all of
[07:39] this stuff that's happening. Um, people
[07:42] are worried about job loss. All of that
[07:44] stuff is real.
[07:45] >> Do you want a cigar?
[07:46] >> No, I'm okay. I'm okay. Um,
[07:49] but what should they really be focused
[07:50] upon? And I think what they should be
[07:53] really focused upon is we're at the tail
[07:56] end of a cycle that doesn't work
[07:57] anymore, which is all about like this
[08:00] tension between labor, people that do
[08:02] the work, and capital, the people that
[08:03] fund it and then make all the returns.
[08:06] And over the last 40 years, we've
[08:07] basically gone to this completely upside
[08:09] down world where capital extracts all of
[08:13] the upside
[08:14] and labor has extracted less and less
[08:17] and less and less. And all of this push
[08:19] back, it manifests in AI, it manifests
[08:22] in politics, it manifests in social
[08:24] issues, it manifests in, you know,
[08:26] Israel, whatever you want to talk about.
[08:28] All of these issues, I think
[08:29] symptomologically,
[08:31] come from this other issue, which is we
[08:33] are out of balance. This total compact
[08:36] that we used to have, a liberal
[08:38] democracy and a free market has totally
[08:40] collapsed. And there are simple ways to
[08:42] fix that, but that never gets the
[08:44] attention because it's not what you want
[08:46] to talk about. the attention is here,
[08:48] you know, vote no to the data center.
[08:51] You know, uh this model is going to take
[08:53] out all the jobs. Um
[08:56] you know, this social issue is really
[08:58] important. That war should not be
[09:00] fought. That war should be fought. All
[09:02] of these things while important
[09:06] distract us from what the core issue is.
[09:08] And the core issue is that we as a
[09:10] society, I think, are out of balance.
[09:12] the the natural compact between all of
[09:15] us is broken and there are some simple
[09:18] ways to fix that compact. Get people
[09:20] more invested, get people more engaged
[09:22] in the upside, have people have a
[09:24] positive some view of what's happening
[09:26] and that isn't happening.
[09:27] >> Well, what what simple solutions are
[09:29] there to to this one very particular
[09:32] issue?
[09:33] >> Okay, I'll get your reaction to this.
[09:35] Let's assume that you still lived in
[09:37] California because I think it it tells
[09:38] this example in a more extreme way.
[09:40] >> Okay. Um, let's say you make a million
[09:43] bucks a year, which is a lot of money,
[09:44] but it it makes the it makes the point
[09:47] more cleanly. Um,
[09:50] you'd pay, I think, 30%
[09:54] federal tax and you'd pay another 15 or
[09:58] 16% in state tax and Medicare tax and
[10:01] all this tax. So, if you're a wage
[10:03] earner,
[10:05] 50% of all your upside
[10:09] goes to the government.
[10:11] If you're a capital earnner and you make
[10:14] that same million dollars via capital
[10:17] gains, you pay half that tax.
[10:21] Why did that happen? That happened
[10:23] because in the 40s and 50s, but really
[10:25] in the 60s and 70s and 80s,
[10:28] what we were trying to do or what the
[10:30] American government and what western
[10:32] societies were trying to do was to
[10:35] convince people to invest their money.
[10:38] Hey Joe, go build that factory. Go hire
[10:41] those people and we're going to
[10:42] incentivize you to do so.
[10:45] And by doing that, there was this idea
[10:48] that that all of those profits that you
[10:50] would get would then diffuse, right,
[10:51] trickle down into everybody else. The
[10:54] workers participated, everybody
[10:55] participated.
[10:57] But technology allows you to do more
[10:59] with less and less. So now what happens
[11:02] is the capital owners can acrue
[11:06] infinite almost it seems like value and
[11:10] the workers get less and less. But now
[11:11] if you get less and less and you're
[11:12] taxed more and more as a percentage of
[11:14] what you own, you're going to feel
[11:16] really out of sorts. You're going to be
[11:17] like, why am I paying 50 cents of every
[11:19] dollar? And I see these other ways where
[11:21] folks are paying 25 cents on their
[11:23] dollars, but their dollars are
[11:24] compounding way faster and they have,
[11:27] you know, hundreds of billions more of
[11:29] those dollars than I have of my dollars.
[11:31] If you take that example and you expand
[11:33] it across society, I think people
[11:35] understand that now. There's enough
[11:37] information and there's enough people
[11:38] talking about it where it's pretty clear
[11:40] that that's happened. So the question is
[11:42] how do you fix it? I think like if you
[11:44] think about AI and if you believe that
[11:46] we're going to get into this world of
[11:47] abundance
[11:50] and we're not working, what does it mean
[11:52] for governments to tax our labor? There
[11:54] is no labor. You're not working anymore.
[11:56] I'm not working. We're doing things out
[11:58] of leisure.
[11:59] Why should I pay 50 cents of every
[12:01] dollar? Why aren't the companies that
[12:02] are going to be making trillions of
[12:03] dollars, why don't they pay more?
[12:06] Why isn't there, you know, an
[12:08] expectation that they then help our
[12:11] lived society
[12:13] do better and thrive as a result of all
[12:16] of that winning? That's the real
[12:18] conversation that I think is
[12:21] bubbling.
[12:23] And I think that we're probably another
[12:25] 12 to 18 months where all of these other
[12:28] issues are going to be important, but
[12:30] they're going to be viewed for for what
[12:32] they are. um they're going to get
[12:34] demoted I think in importance and it's
[12:36] this core structural issue it's what is
[12:39] the economic relationship that we have
[12:41] together as a society what is the
[12:43] relationship between Joe Chamath Jamie
[12:46] and all these companies and how do we
[12:50] feel about a few and an evershrinking
[12:52] few making more and more and more
[12:57] and then how do we feel about their
[13:00] ability to share that with a small
[13:03] amount of people
[13:05] and then what do what is the expectation
[13:07] for everybody else? I think that's
[13:09] mostly at the core of what's happening.
[13:12] And so back to like, you know, all of
[13:15] this attention that we give to these
[13:16] other issues distracts from that one
[13:18] because I think you can get organized to
[13:20] fix this issue. You can't get
[13:21] concessions on any of these issues.
[13:23] >> Mhm.
[13:23] >> You know, you bring up Israel, it's like
[13:25] this. You bring up social issues, it's
[13:26] like this. You bring up, you know,
[13:28] whatever you want to bring up, people
[13:30] just kind of take a side, nothing
[13:32] happens. This is actually where people
[13:34] are universally actually much more
[13:36] aligned than you think because there's
[13:38] reasonable ways. One simple way was is
[13:40] you'd say, well, let's flip the taxation
[13:41] model.
[13:43] Corporate taxes
[13:46] should exceed personal taxes. They've
[13:49] never
[13:52] we should have an expectation that then
[13:55] corporate
[13:57] actors can buy down their taxes if they
[13:59] want, but if they do social good for
[14:01] society. I'll give you an example. At
[14:03] the industrial revolution, there's a
[14:05] table like this and the leading lights
[14:08] of that era, Andrew Carnegie, Nelson
[14:10] Rockefeller, Jay Gould, JP Morgan,
[14:15] they sat together and they said, "Guys,
[14:17] this is going to benefit us this
[14:19] industrial revolution.
[14:21] It may not benefit everybody. What is
[14:23] our responsibility? What is our
[14:25] collective responsibility?"
[14:27] And they allocated tasks. Carnegie went
[14:30] and built libraries
[14:32] all throughout the country. Rockefeller
[14:34] built universities, hospitals were
[14:36] built. And I think what happened is
[14:39] society was like, "Wow, these are living
[14:40] testaments to us doing well." And so
[14:44] then they were okay with this
[14:45] transition.
[14:47] But if you think about it today, what
[14:48] are the living tributes that, you know,
[14:52] capital builds and leaves behind for
[14:54] society? It's fewer and fewer.
[14:57] I think that's a that's a very big
[14:59] opportunity for somebody to fill it. I
[15:01] think it's like especially for folks in
[15:04] tech. I think if they can get themselves
[15:06] organized to do that, I think we we land
[15:08] in a good place. If they cannot get
[15:10] themselves organized to do that and say
[15:12] everyone for themselves,
[15:16] I think it's going to be really
[15:17] complicated. Super messy. super messy
[15:20] because
[15:21] >> super messy
[15:22] >> that sentiment that the wealthy are
[15:25] getting wealthier and the middle class
[15:26] is disappearing and the poor are being
[15:29] taxed into oblivion.
[15:31] >> Look, an $80,000 year teacher pays 40%
[15:34] tax. But if you're a multi-billionaire,
[15:38] most of your wealth is not W2 wages.
[15:42] It's cap gains. But there's all kinds of
[15:44] ways to shelter cap gains. There's all
[15:46] kinds of ways to defer. And so even
[15:48] though you pay more on an absolute
[15:52] dollar basis, on a percentage basis,
[15:53] you're paying way way less. And all of
[15:56] those tricks have been exposed.
[15:59] They've all been exposed. These are all
[16:01] mechanisms that were that were, you
[16:03] know, invented from the 1980s to now,
[16:06] right? By all the by all the banks and
[16:08] all the folks that wanted to come to
[16:10] folks that had wealth. And so it's it's
[16:12] and it's all known. And I think people
[16:14] are kind of like, "Hey, hold on a
[16:16] second. This just doesn't feel fair
[16:18] anymore.
[16:19] >> Absolutely. But the other problem with
[16:23] that is if you do tax correctly, where
[16:27] does that money go? And who's managing
[16:30] it? And ultimately, who's managing it is
[16:33] the federal government. And they've been
[16:36] shown to be completely inept at managing
[16:39] your money correctly. The fraud and the
[16:41] waste is off the charts. the amount of
[16:44] NOS's that have insane amount of funds
[16:47] at their disposal. I mean all this is
[16:49] exposed by Doge, right? And you realize
[16:51] like how much fraud and waste there is
[16:53] and how much money. So the solution
[16:56] being tax people more
[16:59] >> that doesn't sit with a lot of people
[17:00] because it's like well where where is it
[17:03] going and who's managing it? If if the
[17:06] federal government was being forced to
[17:09] handle money the same way a private
[17:11] company does, if it was all out in the
[17:14] open, everything was exposed, they would
[17:17] have gone bankrupt a long time ago. They
[17:19] would have gone under a long time ago.
[17:21] There's no way they would have been
[17:23] allowed to function the way they are.
[17:25] The people that are managing that money
[17:27] would have all been put in jail. There's
[17:29] not a chance in hell that
[17:32] giving them more money is going to solve
[17:34] anything. They're going to find more
[17:36] ways to put more of that money into
[17:39] NOS's that puts more of that money into
[17:41] Democratic coffers and Republican
[17:42] coffers. They're going to figure out a
[17:44] way to funnel that money around where
[17:46] it's not going to benefit people. I
[17:48] mean, a good example of that is like
[17:50] where let's let's look at the LA fire
[17:53] thing for instance. All right. So the LA
[17:56] fire fund, there's a giant fire in the
[17:58] Palisades. All this money gets raised.
[18:02] It's over $800 million. It goes to 200
[18:05] plus different nonprofits. None of it
[18:09] goes to the people,
[18:10] >> right?
[18:10] >> Spencer Pratt, who's running for mayor
[18:12] of Los Angeles.
[18:13] >> He's doing a great job, by the way.
[18:14] >> [ __ ] phenomenal.
[18:16] >> Those ads are those ads are fire.
[18:19] >> They're so good.
[18:20] >> They're fire. I He's doing and he's
[18:22] doing it all out of a trailer. Yeah.
[18:23] >> On his burnt out land. I mean, he's the
[18:25] most righteous guy running in that
[18:27] regard.
[18:28] >> But just that being exposed like, okay,
[18:32] we're going to help out these people.
[18:34] We're going to donate money. We're going
[18:35] to raise money. We're going to do some
[18:37] good. We feel terrible about the people
[18:39] in our community that have lost homes.
[18:41] Well, what happens? Well, the same
[18:43] people that you're saying we should give
[18:44] more taxes to take that money and they
[18:48] just give it to a bunch of nonprofits
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[19:30] >> I'm not saying give more tax. What I'm
[19:31] saying is,
[19:32] >> right,
[19:33] >> people are taxed too much. Yes,
[19:34] >> corporates are not taxed enough. Flip
[19:36] it. That's
[19:37] >> right. But even if you do flip it and
[19:39] the corporates are taxed more, where's
[19:42] that money going? This is the problem.
[19:44] >> I suspect that if you put the burden on
[19:46] Wall Street and corporates,
[19:49] um, they'd be a lot more organized and
[19:52] they'd probably create a lot more change
[19:53] than a diffuse electorate. Meaning like
[19:57] let's just say the government spends a
[19:58] trillion dollars and wastes it. I'm
[20:01] generally like roughly aligned with
[20:02] that.
[20:04] If you waste a trillion dollars from 300
[20:07] million people, it's hard to organize at
[20:10] 300 million people. But if you waste a
[20:12] trillion dollars from 300 companies,
[20:15] those companies will get their [ __ ]
[20:16] together really fast. And they will
[20:18] force a lot more change.
[20:19] >> I would hope so, but you're still
[20:20] dealing with incompetent people that are
[20:22] tasked with taking care of that money.
[20:25] Not just incompetent, but
[20:26] >> don't get me wrong, I'm not defending
[20:27] these people.
[20:28] >> Decades of corruption. decades and
[20:31] decades of all these mechanisms where
[20:34] they can take this money and funnel it
[20:36] into these NOS and these nonprofits and
[20:40] all these different weird organizations
[20:43] that don't seem to have accountability
[20:45] for what they do with that money, that
[20:47] gets real slippery.
[20:48] >> Yeah. And if those people in turn make
[20:52] deals with those corporations that allow
[20:54] them to do certain things and push
[20:56] things through that maybe they would
[20:58] have difficulty doing, then you have a
[21:00] different kind of a working relationship
[21:01] with the same groups of people and the
[21:04] same government. You just take money
[21:07] from corporations and move it into a way
[21:09] where the corporations ultimately
[21:11] benefit from it, but yet it doesn't do
[21:13] any good to the people.
[21:14] >> Yeah. I mean, I can see where you're
[21:15] coming from. I just think that if we go
[21:17] on the track we're going down,
[21:21] >> it just seems like we're we're going to
[21:23] hit a crisis.
[21:24] >> Yes,
[21:25] >> the crisis is you can't expect people to
[21:27] pay more and more and more. Again, I
[21:29] agree with you. The premise is we're all
[21:31] paying for a system that's broken.
[21:33] >> That should that should change. But we
[21:36] still continue to have to pay our taxes.
[21:37] But if taxes keep going up like this at
[21:39] the individual level
[21:42] and we don't manage this transition to
[21:44] something where we may be working less
[21:46] and less, what are we getting paid to
[21:47] do? And then at that point, how are we
[21:49] expected to pay what? 90% of what?
[21:51] >> Right?
[21:52] >> 50% of what? I think people do have this
[21:55] weird feeling of
[21:59] dread that the people that are in
[22:02] control of a lot in this country, the
[22:06] the tech companies in particular,
[22:07] particularly the tech companies like
[22:09] Google and Facebook that are essentially
[22:11] involved in data collection and then
[22:14] ultimately dissemination of information
[22:16] that they have acquired enormous amounts
[22:19] of wealth and power and influence and
[22:21] they're essentially a new form of the
[22:24] government.
[22:25] >> Yeah.
[22:26] >> You know, are you aware of Robert
[22:27] Epstein? Do you know about his work?
[22:30] >> Not Robert Epste.
[22:31] >> No, different guy. Different guy. Um,
[22:33] Robert Epstein is a guy who specializes
[22:36] in uh understanding what curated search
[22:40] results do and what what Google's able
[22:44] to do with in particular with curated
[22:47] search results in terms of influencing
[22:49] elections
[22:51] >> that like say if you you have two
[22:53] candidates that are running. Let's just
[22:54] say let's just take LA for instance. If
[22:57] and I'm not making any accusations, but
[22:59] I'm saying if they wanted Karen Bass to
[23:02] win and you searched Karen Bass, you
[23:05] would find all these positive results.
[23:07] If you searched Spencer Pratt, you would
[23:10] find all these negative results. And
[23:12] there's a bunch of people that are
[23:14] always undecided voters and those are
[23:17] the ones that you really want. They're
[23:18] like, I don't know. I don't know. And
[23:20] come election night, those are the
[23:21] people you want to try to grab and it's
[23:22] it's generally a large percentage. You
[23:25] can influence an enormous percentage of
[23:27] those people just with search results.
[23:29] >> Yeah.
[23:29] >> Where you can shift an election one way
[23:31] or another.
[23:32] >> I believe it.
[23:32] >> Yeah. And he's demonstrated this and
[23:35] shown how this is possible. Um that
[23:38] freaks people out that tech companies
[23:41] are in control of narratives that tech
[23:44] companies can censor information
[23:47] especially tech companies that work in
[23:48] conjunction with the government.
[23:50] >> Right?
[23:50] >> This is what we found out when Elon
[23:52] purchased Twitter. Right? Right. When
[23:54] Elon purchased Twitter, we got all this
[23:56] information from the Twitter files when
[23:58] all the journalists were allowed to go
[23:59] through it and they said, "Oh, this is
[24:01] crazy. You've got the FBI, the CIA,
[24:04] you've got all these companies, all
[24:05] these government organizations that are
[24:08] essentially
[24:10] controlling the narrative of free speech
[24:12] in the country. And they're doing it in
[24:14] a way that benefits them. They're doing
[24:16] it in a way that benefits what political
[24:17] parties in charge at the time was the
[24:19] Biden administration. and they were
[24:22] allowed to do a bunch of weird [ __ ]
[24:24] which which should be illegal but it's
[24:26] not technically illegal.
[24:28] >> And that freaks people out because
[24:29] there's no real laws and rules in regard
[24:32] to what they're allowed to do and what
[24:34] they're not allowed to do. Like curated
[24:36] search results should be illegal.
[24:38] >> They're shaping attention.
[24:39] >> Yes. Attention. Again, it goes back to
[24:41] attention, right?
[24:42] >> They're shaping attention.
[24:43] >> Yeah. Um it's that's a big concern for
[24:47] people. And I think then when you find
[24:49] out that these people are able to amass
[24:52] enormous sums of wealth and have
[24:53] incredible amount of power and influence
[24:55] because of this enormous enormous wealth
[24:58] and this control over these tech
[25:01] companies that have essentially become
[25:03] the town square of the world.
[25:05] >> Yeah.
[25:06] >> That freaks people out and that these
[25:08] very small number of people, you know,
[25:10] you think of Zuckerberg, you think of
[25:12] Tim Cook and I don't I don't know who
[25:14] the new guy is now. Who's the name? John
[25:16] John Fern,
[25:17] >> right?
[25:17] >> Furnace. No,
[25:18] >> I forget his name.
[25:19] >> Yeah.
[25:19] >> Turn.
[25:20] >> Turn. Turn.
[25:21] >> But but that kind of thing
[25:25] gives people a lot of concern, right?
[25:28] It's like that these people, these
[25:29] unelected people are in control of a a
[25:33] giant chunk of
[25:35] how the world works.
[25:38] >> I think that this is the existential
[25:40] question that we are dealing with.
[25:42] you're going to have five or six
[25:44] companies
[25:46] concentrate like whatever power you
[25:49] think has been concentrated up until
[25:51] now. I think we're going to look back
[25:53] and it's going to look like a Sunday
[25:55] picnic 10 or 15 years from now because
[25:58] on the one hand it's going to be an even
[26:00] smaller subset and on the other hand the
[26:02] capability is going to be an order or
[26:04] two orders of magnitude. So can you
[26:06] imagine what that must be like? It's
[26:07] kind of like showing up, getting dropped
[26:09] into the 1800s, and you've invented the
[26:12] engine and everybody else's horse and
[26:13] buggy.
[26:14] >> You can just decide to your point. That
[26:18] is where we're going.
[26:20] >> It's even more crazy. It's like
[26:22] everybody else is on a horse and buggy
[26:24] and you've got an internet connection
[26:25] with a cell phone.
[26:27] >> Exactly. Exactly.
[26:28] >> It's even more crazy.
[26:29] >> Exactly. because it's what we're dealing
[26:32] with with AI right now is first of all
[26:35] it's already lowered children's
[26:37] attention spans and it's shrinking their
[26:40] capacity to acquire or absorb
[26:43] information because what they're doing
[26:45] now is just relying on AI to answer all
[26:48] their questions for them. Now, is that
[26:50] their fault? Kind of, right? Because it
[26:52] doesn't have to be that way. You could
[26:53] still acquire information the
[26:55] oldfashioned way. You can still learn
[26:57] things the right way. But a lot of kids
[26:58] are just concerned with passing
[27:00] examinations and getting into good
[27:01] schools. And what they're doing is just
[27:03] using AI and they're they're getting
[27:05] better test results, but they're also
[27:07] not as smart.
[27:08] >> Yeah.
[27:09] >> Which is really weird. Yeah.
[27:10] >> It's like we're relying on it like we
[27:14] you know it's like it's essentially like
[27:19] replacing our mind. And that's just the
[27:23] this is the beginning. This is like
[27:26] these are the toddler days
[27:28] >> of AI and where it's going to be a super
[27:31] athlete in a few years.
[27:33] >> Yeah. I think we have to figure out how
[27:36] first of all
[27:38] kids need to learn and I think this is
[27:40] where like we have to do a better job as
[27:42] parents. Kids need to learn how to be
[27:43] resilient thinkers. I don't even know
[27:45] what that term meant before, but I know
[27:46] what it means now, which is like you
[27:48] take this AI slop and you just kind of
[27:50] like pass it off. And if like the
[27:52] teachers and the school system aren't
[27:54] trained, they're just like, "Wow, this
[27:56] looks good." They have to be able to
[27:58] push back. Parents need to be able to
[28:00] look at this [ __ ] But then all of this
[28:02] stuff, I'm just like so frustrated
[28:03] because it's like one more thing that I
[28:04] have to do as a parent. Like,
[28:06] >> right?
[28:06] >> Every time technology gets better, it's
[28:08] one more thing, you know,
[28:09] >> right?
[28:10] >> We're going to make the world, you know,
[28:11] super connected and social and all that
[28:13] stuff. It sounds great to me until I
[28:15] have to be the one that has to tell my
[28:16] kid I can't they can't get Instagram
[28:18] >> and then they're up my ass every day,
[28:20] right? you know, and it's just like I
[28:22] don't want to have to deal with this
[28:23] stuff,
[28:24] >> right?
[28:24] >> I want this to be handled in a way that
[28:27] just allows me to do what I want to do.
[28:29] I don't want to say no to my kid. I
[28:31] don't want to police his schoolwork and
[28:32] make sure he's not cheating or not
[28:35] learning and just like, you know,
[28:36] passing off this AI slop. What am I
[28:40] where are my tax dollars going? Where is
[28:43] everybody else in all of this? It gets
[28:45] very frustrating. And again, it goes
[28:47] back to like this feeling of like, well,
[28:49] is this all getting better for me or is
[28:51] this kind of like not, you know, people
[28:53] start to be nostalgic
[28:55] >> for what it used to be because it was
[28:56] just simpler, but I think that's a
[28:59] different way of saying easier.
[29:00] >> Well, we're just dealing with we're at
[29:03] the edge of great change. Like great
[29:06] change that has no real understanding of
[29:09] how it turns out.
[29:10] >> Yeah.
[29:11] >> And I think that understandably freaks
[29:14] people out. Freaks me out. It freaks me
[29:16] out, but I've kind of gotten to this
[29:18] place where I'm like, well, it's going
[29:19] to happen.
[29:20] >> Did you see this thing? Um, it's a CEO
[29:22] of Verizon, Dan Schulman. He put out
[29:24] this very public forecast, you know,
[29:28] very smart guy, well regarded in
[29:30] business. And I think he said something
[29:32] like 30%
[29:34] of all white collar jobs will be gone by
[29:36] 2030. I don't know, Jamie, maybe you can
[29:38] get the exact thing, but it's something
[29:39] like that.
[29:39] >> That's probably optimistic. And I
[29:41] thought at first my initial reaction was
[29:43] like this is totally not credible. But
[29:46] then I'm like hold on a second that's my
[29:47] bias because I want to believe that
[29:48] that's not possible
[29:50] >> honestly you know and as I've gotten
[29:52] older I'm I'm a little bit better now
[29:54] like okay hold on a second let's weigh
[29:55] the probabilities. And now I was like
[29:57] man if I'm going to be fair maybe
[30:00] there's a 10 20% chance of that. There's
[30:04] a bunch of other outcomes that are much
[30:06] better than that but that's part of the
[30:08] set of outcomes that you have to
[30:09] consider.
[30:11] And then I was like, well, what's my
[30:13] antidote to that? My and and the only
[30:15] thing that I can say is don't worry,
[30:16] it's going to be better.
[30:19] I don't think that that's a good answer.
[30:20] >> No.
[30:21] >> So, there has to be like all of this
[30:23] kind of goes back to look, my wife and I
[30:27] have this conversation. We're like, if
[30:29] it were up to us, who's who can you
[30:32] trust to have some super intelligence?
[30:35] Now, we're biased because we're friends
[30:37] with him, but the only person that we
[30:38] can trust is Elon because he seems to be
[30:41] like he has a bigger like it's kind of
[30:43] like he's like over there. He's like, I
[30:45] need to get to Mars, right?
[30:46] >> You know, and I'm going to first
[30:47] terraform the moon, but then I'm going
[30:49] to Mars and I'm going to build like a
[30:51] [ __ ] magnetic catapult and I got to
[30:53] do all this [ __ ] and so I just need this
[30:56] thing. I feel like he's the least
[30:58] corruptible.
[31:01] He's the most independent thinking
[31:03] >> and I think he's the one that has a
[31:05] natural empathy for people. Then there
[31:07] are folks where there's just a in insane
[31:10] profit motive,
[31:11] >> right?
[31:11] >> They're less in control of the
[31:13] businesses that they run. Those
[31:15] businesses are really out over their ski
[31:17] tips and the amount of money they've
[31:18] gotten from Wall Street and other folks
[31:21] who expect a return who will put a ton
[31:22] of pressure on these folks. And if they
[31:25] get there first, I don't know where the
[31:27] chips fall. We don't really know. We can
[31:29] kind of guess. And then you see in the
[31:31] press
[31:33] just enough snippets of their reactions
[31:35] in certain moments where you're like,
[31:36] "Hey, hold on a second. Question mark
[31:38] here." You know, you see OpenAI react
[31:40] one way, you see Anthropic react another
[31:42] way, and you're like, "Where is this
[31:44] going to end up?" And the honest answer
[31:46] is nobody really knows.
[31:48] So, it comes back to like we need a few
[31:51] people that can organize. Those guys
[31:53] need to self-organize and actually
[31:55] present a really positive face. And they
[31:57] need to show
[31:59] why those 20% of outcomes that Dan
[32:02] Schulman paints,
[32:05] the truth is it's possible, but here's
[32:07] why it's pro not probable,
[32:09] >> but it's not in their best interest to
[32:11] do that because it's in their best
[32:12] interest to generate the most amount of
[32:14] money possible. That's the obligation
[32:15] they have to their shareholders. That's
[32:17] the obligation to they have the people
[32:18] that have invested money in this
[32:20] company. They their obligation is not to
[32:23] make sure the white collar jobs stay in
[32:25] the same place that there are now.
[32:27] >> That's not that's not true.
[32:28] >> No.
[32:28] >> No. I I actually think their incentive
[32:31] should very clearly be to tell people
[32:34] with details and facts why there's a
[32:37] positive future. And the reason is the
[32:39] following. Right now there's a vacuum.
[32:41] There are no facts. And there's
[32:43] fear-mongering. And then there's this
[32:45] belief that this is going to be
[32:46] cataclysmic to human productivity and
[32:49] white color labor and all of this stuff.
[32:51] >> What's people's natural reaction? Well,
[32:53] today if you look at it,
[32:55] >> think about AI as a very simple
[32:57] equation. Energy in, intelligence out.
[33:01] >> So if you want to cut the head of the
[33:02] snake, what do you do? You cut off the
[33:03] energy supply.
[33:05] >> Right?
[33:05] >> Okay.
[33:06] >> If you're afraid
[33:07] >> of all of this super intelligence
[33:09] coming,
[33:09] >> the natural thing to do would be to go
[33:11] to the point of energy and unplug it.
[33:13] What is the equivalent of unplugging it
[33:15] today? It is to go all around the
[33:16] country, find the data centers, protest
[33:20] them, and get them to be mothballled.
[33:23] That is an incredibly successful
[33:25] strategy right now.
[33:27] Today, about 40%
[33:31] of all of these data centers
[33:34] that get protested get mothballled.
[33:38] >> You're talking about emerging data
[33:40] centers.
[33:40] >> Yeah. just like
[33:41] >> I need to. So if you're one of these
[33:43] companies, the first thing you should
[33:44] realize is I need to paint a positive
[33:46] vision because 40% of my energy is
[33:50] getting unplugged every day.
[33:53] And if that happens, my revenues will
[33:55] crater and my investors will be super
[33:56] pissed. So the right strategy is what is
[33:59] the positive fact-based argument? And
[34:02] there are some incredible examples
[34:06] number one. And then number two is you
[34:08] have to give people some tactical
[34:10] benefit that they see because AI
[34:14] differently than
[34:16] search or differently than social media
[34:18] there's no exchange of value. Let me let
[34:21] me explain what that means. So let me
[34:23] just go like so the first thing is that
[34:27] if you can go and actually show people
[34:31] here's an example of AI. I I I heard
[34:34] about this last night. It's pretty
[34:35] incredible.
[34:36] You can now take pictures of a woman's
[34:38] fallopian tubes and you can see
[34:42] precancer
[34:45] ovarian cysts and all of this stuff
[34:46] cervical cancer before it forms and then
[34:50] you can intervene and you can fix it so
[34:53] that you know women don't get cervical
[34:54] cancer. In a different example I
[34:57] actually I told you about this example
[34:58] when I was here before I finally got FDA
[35:01] approval. Okay, there is a device now
[35:03] that is allowed to be in the operating
[35:05] room with you. And if you have a
[35:08] cancerous lesion or a tumor inside of
[35:11] your body, the most important thing when
[35:12] they go to take it out is make sure you
[35:15] don't leave any cancer behind. You
[35:17] couldn't do it because what would happen
[35:19] is you take it out. A doctor is Joe is
[35:22] literally [ __ ] eyeballing it and
[35:24] saying, "Yeah, they send it to a
[35:26] pathologist. You get an answer in 10
[35:28] days." for women with breast cancer. A
[35:31] third of these women find out that they
[35:33] have cancer left behind. They go back
[35:35] in, they scoop some more stuff out. A
[35:37] third of those women. Okay. So, I'm
[35:40] like, "This is [ __ ] We can solve
[35:41] this problem." It took us a long time, a
[35:45] lot of money. I had to build an entire
[35:47] machine imaging, all of this stuff, AI
[35:50] algorithms. We had to prove it all. We
[35:52] finally get approval. Okay. But you know
[35:55] how hard it is to tell that story in all
[35:57] of the attention that people are looking
[35:59] for. It's hard. But those are positive
[36:02] examples. No more breast cancer,
[36:06] no more cervical cancer. A different
[36:08] example is most drugs in pharma fail,
[36:12] right?
[36:13] And it's a very complicated problem in
[36:16] pharma. It's kind of like a jigsaw
[36:17] puzzle of the ultimate complexity. It's
[36:19] like think of your human body as like a
[36:22] Himalayan mountain range. You have to
[36:25] design a drug that's an equivalent
[36:26] Himalayan mountain range that plugs into
[36:28] it perfectly. One millimeter off,
[36:32] you grow like a fourth eye, a third
[36:34] nipple, you die. You know, now you can
[36:37] use computers to make sure that that
[36:40] drug handin glove to your body solves
[36:43] the exact problem. Couldn't do that
[36:45] before. So, there's all of these body of
[36:47] examples and you're probably only
[36:51] hearing them superficially at best.
[36:54] That should be 99% of the attention is
[36:57] showing all of the constructive tactical
[37:00] ways in which our lives will be better.
[37:02] Your mom, your daughter, your wife, us,
[37:06] Jamie, his family, everybody,
[37:08] >> right?
[37:08] >> That's the number one thing. Nobody
[37:10] talks about it. I don't understand why.
[37:12] >> Well, I think because people are
[37:14] terrified of losing their jobs. So,
[37:15] that's the primary concern. The primary
[37:17] concern that I hear from people is that
[37:19] there's so many people that are going to
[37:21] school right now, college students, that
[37:22] don't know if their job is going to even
[37:25] exist in four years when they graduate.
[37:27] >> And that's the second part of I think
[37:29] what this industry has to do better.
[37:32] There's a I had uh lunch with Jeffrey
[37:34] Katzenberg. He told this crazy story.
[37:36] I'll I'll tell you. It's like Steve Jobs
[37:39] gets kicked out of Apple.
[37:41] um he buys he starts next
[37:45] and he buys Pixar from George Lucas, but
[37:48] then he hits a rough patch and he's got
[37:49] this, you know, financing issue. Kerberg
[37:52] flies up,
[37:54] spends time with Steve Jobs, says, "I'll
[37:56] buy Pixar." Jobs says, "Absolutely not."
[38:00] And then Katherenberg proposes a deal
[38:02] and he's like, "Uh, how about a
[38:03] three-picture deal?" Jobs says, "Okay."
[38:06] He flies back and apparently all the
[38:08] animators were up in arms because
[38:11] they're like, "Hold on a second. Steve
[38:13] Jobs is going to use these next
[38:14] computers to animate this movie." Which
[38:17] ultimately became, I think, Toy Story.
[38:19] And they're like, "This is going to put
[38:20] all of us out of a job." That perfect
[38:23] argument. And people were really upset.
[38:27] Roy Disney was upset. All the animators
[38:29] were upset. And they all went to Mike
[38:31] Eisner and they were like, "Michael, you
[38:33] need to fire Katzenberg."
[38:36] And they had a deal which was like,
[38:38] "Look, man, you do you, but just give me
[38:41] the ability to say no if I think that
[38:43] this is you're about to jump off a
[38:44] cliff." They talk about it and he's
[38:46] like, "I got your back. Do the deal.
[38:48] Make the movie." They made the movie. It
[38:50] was a huge success. Fast forward 10
[38:52] years, 15 years, there's 10x the number
[38:54] of animators.
[38:56] Now, it's a small example, but why is
[38:58] that? You were able to use computers and
[39:00] now all these new people were able to
[39:02] come and participate in that. I get it.
[39:04] It's a small example,
[39:06] but I think if we had better organized
[39:09] leadership and we could try to tell some
[39:11] of these examples, try to go back and
[39:13] document how some of these things have
[39:16] actually helped people, it expanded the
[39:18] pie, there's a chance. But if we don't,
[39:21] I agree with you where we're going to
[39:23] end up is everybody basically saying,
[39:24] "Hey, hold on a second. This is crazy.
[39:26] We need to stop this." That's the worst
[39:28] outcome because that's when you will
[39:31] have the a high risk of a dislocation.
[39:33] like the worst outcome like the black
[39:35] what's the black swan event, right?
[39:37] Let's think about the black the black
[39:38] swan event is when you get a model
[39:41] that's good enough to automate a bunch
[39:46] of labor
[39:49] but not good enough that it can build
[39:52] new drugs and prevent cancer and make
[39:54] you live for 200 years and all of this
[39:56] other stuff. Right? So there's like a
[39:57] gap, right? And if you can stop it here
[40:00] and it doesn't get to there, now you do
[40:02] have the worst of all worlds. You have
[40:04] this thing that kind of displaces labor.
[40:06] No new things come after it because we
[40:08] stop innovating.
[40:10] And that's like a that's like a
[40:12] nontrivial possibility now, I think.
[40:15] >> No, it's a huge possibility. And then
[40:16] there's also this thing that you brought
[40:18] up earlier where we have this place of
[40:20] abundance where no one has to work
[40:22] anymore. That freaks people out.
[40:24] >> I think that's a big problem. Well,
[40:26] because if no one has to work anymore,
[40:29] first of all, what what is your
[40:31] identity, right? Because so many people
[40:33] their identity is what they do. Whatever
[40:35] it is, if you're a lawyer, if you're an
[40:37] accountant, if you run a business,
[40:39] whatever it is, this is your identity.
[40:41] You know, you have built this thing, you
[40:44] look forward to going there, you work at
[40:46] it, you look forward to doing a good job
[40:48] and getting rewarded for it. The harder
[40:50] you work, the more you get paid. There's
[40:53] all these incentives built in. And then
[40:55] there's this again identity problem. If
[40:58] all of a sudden you have universal high
[41:01] income, which is what Elon always talks
[41:03] about. Well, what gives people purpose
[41:05] then? Like what? And also if you have a
[41:08] person whose entire they're, you know,
[41:10] 43 years old in their entire life,
[41:12] they've worked towards this idea that
[41:14] the harder they work, the harder they
[41:16] think, the more innovative they are, and
[41:18] the the better they are at implementing
[41:20] these ideas, the more they get rewarded.
[41:22] And then all a sudden, that's not
[41:24] necessary anymore, Mike. Time for you to
[41:27] just relax and do what you want to do.
[41:29] And Mike's like, "Well, this is what I
[41:31] do. I this I I don't have any [ __ ]
[41:33] hobbies. I I enjoy doing what I do. And
[41:36] now what I do is completely useless and
[41:39] now I'm on a fixed income." Even if that
[41:41] fixed income is a million dollars a
[41:43] year, whatever it is.
[41:44] >> If all of a sudden you are in this
[41:47] position where everything is being run
[41:49] by computers, you feel useless. You feel
[41:51] like what am I doing? I'm just I'm just
[41:53] taking money. I'm on high welfare,
[41:56] >> right?
[41:57] >> Like what do I do?
[41:58] >> Right? I think that that's a really
[41:59] important question to answer. I don't
[42:01] know. Like
[42:01] >> some people are going to write books.
[42:03] Some people are going to do art. Some
[42:05] people are going to find things to do.
[42:06] But
[42:06] >> what do you think what do you think we
[42:08] would have done if if we were
[42:12] go back to the 1800s example. There was
[42:15] no office culture.
[42:17] You know, there's no like ladder to
[42:20] climb. How did people find meaning then?
[42:24] >> Well, they had jobs. People still did
[42:27] things. If you're a farmer, you you had
[42:29] meaning in your labor and what you did
[42:32] and keeping the animals alive and your
[42:33] chores. And there's people that find
[42:35] great satisfaction in doing that.
[42:37] >> Yeah.
[42:37] >> You know, you have all these animals
[42:38] that rely on you. You have people that
[42:40] rely on you for the food that you
[42:41] generate. There's there's meaning there.
[42:43] It doesn't have to be an office to be
[42:45] something that gives you purpose and
[42:46] meaning. But when all that is animated,
[42:49] then what happens? Because then you have
[42:52] no purpose, no meaning other than
[42:54] recreational activities. Now, if
[42:56] everybody just starts playing chess and
[42:58] doing a bunch of things that they really
[42:59] enjoy, I mean, look, there's people that
[43:01] would love to just play chess. Yeah.
[43:04] >> You know, it's like eight people.
[43:06] >> I don't know about that. I think if
[43:07] people really got into it, I mean,
[43:09] there's a lot of people that get
[43:11] addicted to whatever their recreation
[43:12] is, like golf or whatever it is. For me,
[43:14] it's playing pool. You know, if you told
[43:16] me I never have to make any more money,
[43:18] I could just play pool all day. I might
[43:20] just play pool all day. But I don't know
[43:23] how many people think that way. I don't
[43:25] know how many people would be able to
[43:27] find meaning and purpose in a
[43:29] recreational activity. There's so many
[43:31] people where their entire being is
[43:34] focused around productivity and
[43:36] generating more wealth.
[43:37] >> What about religion as a source of
[43:39] meaning? Well, that that would help that
[43:42] that
[43:43] >> Did you see this article in the New York
[43:44] Times, I think it was this weekend,
[43:45] about how popular and sold out churches
[43:48] have become as social constructs in New
[43:50] York City.
[43:51] >> It was totally fascinating. It's like
[43:54] young women like dressed to the nines
[43:56] going to church on a Sunday
[43:59] >> for social belonging, community meaning.
[44:03] I thought I was like so fascinated by
[44:05] it. I was like, "Wow, that's that's
[44:06] incredible." cuz like I I if I think if
[44:09] you graph like just like people's use of
[44:11] religion as an anchoring part of their
[44:13] value system
[44:14] >> over the last 40 years basically gone to
[44:16] zero. You know, nobody nobody celebrates
[44:18] it the way it's not a part of the
[44:20] community the way that it used to be.
[44:22] Maybe that's a thing that we have to
[44:23] find. There has to be a renewal of some
[44:25] older things and then there has to be
[44:27] new things that replace it. Um what's
[44:30] the Chinese answer to this? You know,
[44:32] the Chinese have a very orthogonal
[44:33] answer to this. If you look at how China
[44:35] China is organized, it's super
[44:37] interesting because they don't reward
[44:40] based on the way the American system
[44:41] rewards. In fact, it's like almost
[44:43] orthogonal where we it's we are rewarded
[44:47] with money and rewarded with sort of
[44:49] fame and recognition
[44:52] the system, the American capitalist
[44:53] system. But if you look inside of China,
[44:56] it's constantly testing who has this
[44:58] judgment. And what they are rewarded
[45:00] with is influence and power in a very
[45:03] again it's a very specific social
[45:04] contract doesn't doesn't I don't think
[45:06] it's going to work in the United States
[45:07] nor am I an advocate of it but it works
[45:08] for them. You'll start off as like some
[45:13] you know lowg person in like some small
[45:16] village town somewhere and your job as
[45:17] like the you know the functionary is to
[45:20] do good in that community and the more
[45:23] you do well you get promoted then you
[45:24] get let's say to like a reasonable size
[45:26] city and you get a budget and now what
[45:28] happens is you actually become a little
[45:30] bit like a VC like a venture capitalist
[45:32] you're given a budget and you'll get a
[45:34] memo and it'll say hey Joe uh we have a
[45:37] priority over the next 15 years it's
[45:39] batteries ries
[45:41] and you have enough money, put a team on
[45:44] the field. So, you go in your local
[45:46] community, you find a bunch of guys,
[45:48] you're like, "All right, guys. We're
[45:49] going to start a battery company." And
[45:51] you do it.
[45:53] And let's say they're good and they're
[45:56] like innovative. And what happens is in
[45:59] the town beside it, that battery company
[46:01] dies. Now, you kind of subsume the
[46:04] capital from Jamie, right? All right,
[46:06] cuz Jaime's like, "Fuck, I [ __ ] up
[46:07] this thing that I wanted I was told to
[46:09] do batteries." Okay, Joe, I'm just going
[46:10] to align with you. And what you happens
[46:13] over time is you get this um filtering
[46:16] effect. And the people that are better
[46:19] at meeting these long run priorities and
[46:21] objectives are the ones that are
[46:23] celebrated, but they're not celebrated
[46:25] with, you know, Forbes articles and all
[46:28] this other [ __ ] They're just
[46:30] celebrated by given more responsibility.
[46:32] And then eventually you get to the upper
[46:34] echelons of China and what you have are
[46:36] folks over a course of 40 or 50 years
[46:38] who in their eyes have demonstrated
[46:40] incredible prowess.
[46:43] There's a version of that reward system
[46:45] which is very foreign to America but
[46:47] that's worked for China. Now that also
[46:50] works because they're more confusion.
[46:51] You know we're too individualist.
[46:53] But my point is like you know there are
[46:57] these different ways that we can find of
[46:59] giving people meaning that don't have to
[47:01] be always around money. Um but meanwhile
[47:06] I think we have to answer the question
[47:07] if we are expected to do less we
[47:10] probably should not be taxed more.
[47:12] That's I think that's like a very basic
[47:14] in my mind I think that is like that
[47:16] must be explored and figured out. And on
[47:19] the other side, there's just a ton of
[47:21] obvious mechanisms that corporate actors
[47:24] can use to minimize that. And they
[47:26] should find offramps, by the way. If
[47:28] they want to build hospitals, they
[47:29] shouldn't have to pay taxes. Like that's
[47:31] a perfect example, by the way, of like
[47:34] the thing in like if you look, if you
[47:35] walk around New York City, there are
[47:37] living tributes to corporate success
[47:40] that people get benefit from every day.
[47:43] The hospitals, the buildings, the
[47:44] libraries, it's just everywhere.
[47:47] We need a version of that. And and I'm
[47:51] not a tax expert, but you know, if that
[47:53] can be funded by private actors, so go
[47:56] directly to the problem. Build a bunch
[47:58] of libraries, build a bunch of new
[47:59] universities that, you know, teach kids
[48:02] actually how to think or whatever. Build
[48:04] better hospitals that are, you know,
[48:05] there to actually solve the problem.
[48:07] These are all things that are possible,
[48:09] >> right?
[48:09] >> But none of it's happening today. Well,
[48:11] let's let's go back to what we were
[48:13] talking about earlier with the taxes and
[48:16] the fact that you're giving money to a
[48:18] broken system. Do you think it's
[48:21] possible that AI could show benefit in
[48:23] that they can analyze all the data,
[48:27] which would be virtually impossible for
[48:29] even an office filled with human beings
[48:32] paying attention to all of it, and they
[48:34] could analyze where all the money goes,
[48:37] and eliminate all the fraud and waste,
[48:39] like recognize it instantaneously. Yes,
[48:42] >> that would be a great benefit and a way
[48:46] to make it so that your taxes directly
[48:49] benefit people.
[48:50] >> I'll give you one example of this. So,
[48:53] two years ago,
[48:55] um, you know, like every few years I'll
[48:57] I mean, I invest, but every few years
[48:59] I'll start something because I feel
[49:00] strongly about it. And there's an effort
[49:04] that I made
[49:07] to look at all of this old code. Like if
[49:09] you think about the world,
[49:12] the world runs on software, right? Like
[49:15] even though you and I are talking, it's
[49:17] piping into Jaime's computer.
[49:19] It's all software. Then it goes to
[49:21] Spotify, they pump in some ads, they put
[49:22] it's all software, right?
[49:23] >> Software runs everything.
[49:27] What percentage of that do you think is
[49:30] kind of poorly written? I'm going to say
[49:32] probably 80 to 90% of it.
[49:34] >> Really?
[49:34] >> Oh, yeah. It's riddled with errors. It's
[49:38] riddled with mistakes. The fact that so
[49:40] many companies exist is an artifact of
[49:43] the fact that the thing that came before
[49:45] it isn't working.
[49:47] Like if you got it right the first time,
[49:49] it would just kind of move and go. So
[49:51] >> how so? What do you mean by that?
[49:53] >> So normally if you if you were like I
[49:56] want to build a system that does A, B,
[49:57] and C,
[49:58] >> right?
[49:59] >> If I was designing it properly, I would
[50:02] sit there with you and I would
[50:03] meticulously write down, all right, Joe
[50:05] wants to do this. What are the
[50:06] implications? Joe wants to do that. What
[50:09] are the implications? And I would
[50:11] actually write a document that was in
[50:13] English before a single line of code has
[50:16] been written. This was the when you have
[50:18] to design something that can't fail. So
[50:20] for example like if you and I are
[50:21] designing something for the FAA or for
[50:24] you know I hate to say this example
[50:26] because it turned out to not exact but
[50:27] like you know to fly a plane right you
[50:30] are first there to write in English and
[50:34] the reason is because everybody can then
[50:36] swarm that document and see the holes.
[50:40] Okay. And it's only then when that stuff
[50:43] looks complete and functional do you
[50:46] build. We turned that upside down. Over
[50:49] the last 30 years,
[50:52] people in computing invented
[50:56] all kinds of ways to shortcut that
[50:58] process. And you can say, well, why did
[51:00] they do that? Because it would allow you
[51:02] to build something faster, make more
[51:04] money quickly, and then build more
[51:06] business. So, the direct response to,
[51:09] "Hey, it's going to take us nine months
[51:11] to write down the rules." was somebody
[51:12] else showed up and says, "Fuck it. I'll
[51:14] just grip and rip this thing. I'll be
[51:15] done in four months." Who's going to get
[51:17] the job? The the fourmonth guy is going
[51:19] to get the job. So, we've had 30 or 40
[51:21] years of that. What are we learning
[51:24] about that process?
[51:27] It's riddled with software errors, like
[51:29] logic errors. It's riddled with security
[51:32] errors. I don't know if you saw this
[51:34] whole thing like with anthropic mythos.
[51:36] What are they uncovering? They're
[51:37] uncovering that we wrote a lot of really
[51:39] shitty code for 40 years.
[51:42] So that body of
[51:45] of old code, I was like, "Guys, if we're
[51:49] going to really figure out how to do all
[51:50] of this, we need to rewrite all of it."
[51:53] So we built we built this thing and um
[51:58] it's called the software factory.
[51:59] Anyways, the point is there is a
[52:01] government organization that we're
[52:02] working with.
[52:04] They gave us a huge corpus of their old
[52:07] code and it is
[52:12] Unbelievable
[52:14] how much complexity and difficulty
[52:17] they have to go through to manage all
[52:21] the money flows with the system. And
[52:22] this is a critical part of the US
[52:24] government. So to your point, what I can
[52:26] tell you really explicitly is the people
[52:28] on the ground want this stuff to be
[52:30] better written.
[52:32] It's it's less like some nefarious actor
[52:35] like, "Oh, I'm going to steal here."
[52:38] It's a lot of very brittle, fragile
[52:41] code. And when you rewrite it, well,
[52:44] first when you document it, you're like,
[52:46] it's like the, you know, the pulp
[52:48] fiction thing. The suitcase opens, the
[52:50] light shines, and you're like, uh, and
[52:52] then you can rewrite it and you will
[52:55] save. So, I think like as the government
[52:57] goes through this process because
[52:59] they're forced to or they want to, it
[53:01] won't matter.
[53:03] You are going to save a ton of money.
[53:06] They're going to have to do it, Joe,
[53:08] because the security risks are too high.
[53:11] But what they're going to end up with is
[53:13] impregnable code that you can read in
[53:15] English and understand. You'll see the
[53:17] holes. Those holes will be plugged
[53:19] because otherwise now you'd be
[53:21] committing fraud by letting it be. You
[53:24] close the loopholes and there's just
[53:25] going to be less money leaking out of
[53:28] this bucket. That is an incredible
[53:30] byproduct. We're going to live that over
[53:31] the next 10 or 20 years just for
[53:33] nothing. Like we get it for free.
[53:36] Um, and that's happening. So when that
[53:38] happens, you're going to see government
[53:40] budgets shrink. Now, to your point, will
[53:42] they try to spend that extra money in
[53:44] other places? Of course. Of course they
[53:45] will.
[53:46] >> That's the next conversation, which is
[53:48] you have to elect people that say
[53:49] firewall it.
[53:51] >> You know, whatever you save, give it
[53:53] back to the people or, you know, invest
[53:56] in some scholarship program or free
[53:57] medicine or something, but you can't
[53:59] spend it on other random [ __ ] Um, but
[54:03] that's where we're at. this that's gonna
[54:05] happen. It's going to be slow and you
[54:08] know but when people start to announce
[54:09] these things I think over the next few
[54:11] years you're going to be shocked.
[54:12] >> So that's the positive upside.
[54:14] >> Well that's happening now irregardless
[54:15] of whatever else happens.
[54:18] There's just it's a lot of old shitty
[54:20] code that must get rebuilt from scratch.
[54:23] It is getting rebuilt from scratch and
[54:25] as a result a lot of these leaky bucket
[54:27] problems are getting filled.
[54:29] >> So what percentage do you think could be
[54:30] fixed?
[54:32] I think if if I had to be a betting man,
[54:35] I think probably
[54:37] 30 to 40%
[54:39] of the federal budget is leaked out
[54:44] >> just from shitty code.
[54:45] >> No, meaning like all of the rules and
[54:47] like like you can take I'm not saying
[54:49] that there isn't fraud,
[54:50] >> right?
[54:52] >> But I think a lot of times what happens
[54:53] is less nefarious than fraud like
[54:55] meaning like conspiratorial actors. I
[54:58] just think it's like incompetence,
[55:00] inefficiency, errors. Like for example,
[55:03] like
[55:03] >> I I saw Doge just say
[55:06] >> they were able to like expunge like
[55:08] millions of people that were like 150
[55:11] years old or more.
[55:13] >> Mhm.
[55:14] >> I have no idea how much money those
[55:17] folks were getting or who they were.
[55:20] >> Uh but it's probably a lot. It's
[55:22] probably not zero. And now that they got
[55:24] rid of it, they're not going to get that
[55:25] money anymore. Um
[55:28] if you implement something at the state
[55:30] level around you know all of this fraud
[55:33] prevention for the daycarees and all of
[55:36] this other stuff again it's all in
[55:38] software because it's not no matter what
[55:40] the human wants to do you have to go to
[55:43] a computer at some point at least today
[55:45] in 2026 and type in something and
[55:47] something happens that's documented and
[55:49] then the money gets sent right that
[55:50] happens there's no other way in in the
[55:52] modern world today at scale to steal
[55:55] billions of dollars
[55:57] And so my point is, as you document all
[56:00] of these systems and governments have to
[56:03] transparently tell you and me, the
[56:05] voting population, here are the rules,
[56:08] they're going to plug a lot of these
[56:09] holes. And I think as you do that,
[56:10] there's just going to be a lot less
[56:12] waste and fraud. The question is, who's
[56:14] going to take credit for it? Everybody's
[56:15] going to try to take credit for it, but
[56:17] I think we've started it. I think we've
[56:19] we've started this process. And again,
[56:20] the reason that people will start is
[56:23] because you'll be afraid of China
[56:24] hacking these systems. You'll be afraid
[56:26] of Iran, North Korea, and you'll say,
[56:28] "This system can't stand. All these AI
[56:30] models are running around. We're going
[56:31] to get breached and penetrated." Then
[56:33] they're going to steal all the money.
[56:35] And the natural reaction will be, "Okay,
[56:37] rewrite it."
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[57:52] That makes sense. That makes sense that
[57:54] the code and having a bunch of errors
[57:56] and having a lot of inefficiency and
[57:59] just a lot of incompetence. That's going
[58:02] to save a lot of money. But
[58:06] so you would be doing this with AI
[58:09] >> in part.
[58:11] What AI allows you to do is like it's
[58:15] like um
[58:17] you have a textbook. Okay. It's in
[58:18] Chinese. You don't know Chinese, right?
[58:20] >> No.
[58:20] >> Okay. You're like, "Well, this is
[58:22] probably doing something important, but
[58:23] it's in Chinese." What AI allows you to
[58:26] do is back translate that into English.
[58:29] You put it through an AI model. You
[58:31] teach it. You coach it, right? You can
[58:34] parameterize all of it. And out pops
[58:36] that same book in English. and now you
[58:39] can read it and know that it's accurate.
[58:43] That's what we're doing. So, what the AI
[58:45] allows you to do is essentially
[58:46] translate from this one language that
[58:48] you kind of don't understand
[58:50] to English.
[58:53] By the way, that thing that's happening
[58:56] like is actually also a very powerful
[58:58] and important trend. Meaning there's all
[59:01] of these systems that work in ways that
[59:03] you and I don't understand. And part of
[59:05] the reason why we don't understand it,
[59:06] maybe it's bad software, maybe it's
[59:08] fraud, whatever. But nothing can be
[59:10] written down. There's no symbolic space.
[59:12] There's no English document that says
[59:14] this is how the DMV works. This is
[59:16] exactly the rules. This is what you can
[59:17] expect, Joe Rogan, when you show up at
[59:19] the DMV and you give us this thing.
[59:20] Here's your SLA. In 3 days, you get a
[59:22] driver's license and here's exactly
[59:24] what's happening. And here's an app and
[59:26] you can follow it. Doesn't happen. Here
[59:29] Joe Rogan, here's how my uh insurance
[59:31] billing process works. you have this
[59:33] condition. I'm going to show you exactly
[59:35] why I made this decision. Here's the
[59:36] exact rule. Here's the approval or
[59:38] denial from CMS. Follow it through and
[59:41] tell me if you agree or not. None of
[59:42] that exists.
[59:44] But it is possible. And the first step
[59:47] in doing that is taking all of this
[59:48] legacy [ __ ] that we deal with and
[59:51] translating it into English and reading
[59:52] it and saying, is this how we want it to
[59:54] work?
[59:56] That's going to eliminate an enormous
[59:58] amount of all the things that frustrate
[01:00:00] us. So this would require human
[01:00:02] oversight.
[01:00:03] >> Absolutely.
[01:00:04] >> All right. So
[01:00:05] >> and so then it's also going to be who's
[01:00:08] watching the watchers.
[01:00:09] >> Yeah. Okay. This is a great question.
[01:00:11] Okay. So I'll tell you how this
[01:00:12] government agency's doing it.
[01:00:14] >> This is a really fascinating way because
[01:00:16] I think it's very smart.
[01:00:20] They came to us and they came to another
[01:00:22] very well-known company. You can
[01:00:24] probably guess what it is. Okay. And
[01:00:26] they're like, "Guys, you're kind of in a
[01:00:28] foot race, but you're not competing
[01:00:30] against each other. You think of
[01:00:32] yourselves as frenemies.
[01:00:34] So, here's this Chinese document. You're
[01:00:36] going to translate it for us. There's
[01:00:37] going to be your version of English and
[01:00:39] these guys' version of English. And
[01:00:41] every time it's the same, we're going to
[01:00:43] look at it together, and we're going to
[01:00:45] agree or not. Okay, this is exactly how
[01:00:47] we want this to work."
[01:00:50] When yours says the dog is red and his
[01:00:54] says the dog is yellow, we're going to
[01:00:56] sit and literally inspect it and we're
[01:00:58] going to figure out why you said red and
[01:01:01] why you said yellow.
[01:01:04] And then if you say the cat is red, the
[01:01:07] dog is yellow. So it's totally wrong,
[01:01:09] right? Like you've gotten, you know, or
[01:01:11] like the cat is red, I want an apple,
[01:01:14] whatever. We're going to double and
[01:01:16] triple down on those kinds of errors.
[01:01:19] and they do it not in public but in this
[01:01:22] large community where there's like
[01:01:24] technical people from all different
[01:01:26] parts and they're just swarming this
[01:01:28] problem. It is it's incredible to see.
[01:01:32] And so what happens is you get humans
[01:01:34] that get to use this tool but ultimately
[01:01:38] it's our judgment and it's done
[01:01:39] transparently. So what happens is you
[01:01:42] can't you know hey man put this [ __ ]
[01:01:44] rule in there like the dog is yellow
[01:01:46] just just make the dog yellow. can't do
[01:01:48] it because now you have tens of people,
[01:01:51] hundreds of people, and then it gets
[01:01:53] documented. Um, it's super fascinating.
[01:01:56] I'm not saying this is how it's going to
[01:01:57] work in 10 years, but I'm telling you,
[01:01:58] it's literally what's happening right
[01:01:59] now. And I think that thing alone will
[01:02:03] be tens of billions of dollars and could
[01:02:06] be hundreds of billions of dollars of
[01:02:07] savings when it's fully done.
[01:02:10] And it's a lot of people from all walks
[01:02:12] of life, all political persuasions, and
[01:02:14] they're just in it. It's the government.
[01:02:16] It's a handful of us private companies.
[01:02:18] It's super cool to see. It's like it's
[01:02:21] like, okay, we're actually going to do
[01:02:23] something here. Like, this is this is
[01:02:24] nice. Um, it's it's really it's really
[01:02:27] cool.
[01:02:27] >> So, that's interesting in terms of the
[01:02:29] current moment. So, in the current
[01:02:31] moment, you're able to implement this.
[01:02:34] You're you're able to find fraud and
[01:02:37] waste and all these problems that exist
[01:02:39] and all these errors and shitty
[01:02:41] software. Once that's all been done,
[01:02:44] >> Yeah. Then what happens?
[01:02:47] >> No [ __ ] clue.
[01:02:48] >> Yeah. So, this is where it gets weird,
[01:02:50] right? Because
[01:02:53] when when you're dealing with AI models
[01:02:56] that are capable of doing things that no
[01:02:58] individual human being could ever
[01:03:00] possibly imagine. And then you task it
[01:03:04] with a solution or with a problem. Find
[01:03:07] a solution for this. And then it starts
[01:03:10] figuring out ways to trim this and
[01:03:13] implement that.
[01:03:15] We have to make sure that these AIs act
[01:03:18] within they act within the best
[01:03:20] interests of the human race.
[01:03:22] >> Agreed.
[01:03:23] >> Right. Not the company, not the
[01:03:25] government, not but the human race. And
[01:03:29] you're also dealing with China. You're
[01:03:30] also dealing with Russia. you're dealing
[01:03:32] with other countries that are also in
[01:03:34] this mad race to create artificial
[01:03:37] general super intelligence that if we
[01:03:40] keep shutting down data centers, we keep
[01:03:42] hamstring ourselves, China's not doing
[01:03:44] that.
[01:03:45] >> They're not doing that. They're doing
[01:03:46] the opposite. They're generating as much
[01:03:49] revenue that goes towards this problem
[01:03:51] as possible. They're putting all the
[01:03:53] efforts, the the country, the
[01:03:56] government, and these corporations work
[01:03:58] hand in glove in order to achieve a
[01:04:00] goal. We do not.
[01:04:02] >> No.
[01:04:03] >> And that that becomes a problem if you
[01:04:05] want to be competitive with these other
[01:04:07] countries that are trying to achieve the
[01:04:09] same result as us. And then you have
[01:04:10] espionage. Then you have a bunch of
[01:04:12] people that are stealing information.
[01:04:14] You have a bunch of people that are CCP
[01:04:17] um members that are actually involved in
[01:04:20] companies. And you find out that they're
[01:04:23] siphoning off data and that they're
[01:04:25] sharing information and tech secrets.
[01:04:27] >> They're um look, here's a
[01:04:31] They're pro they're dis the way that the
[01:04:33] Chinese models work the Chinese claim.
[01:04:36] So America's closed source, meaning you
[01:04:39] got your own thing. Your recipe is
[01:04:42] completely secret,
[01:04:43] >> right?
[01:04:43] >> Okay. I have my own thing. My recipe is
[01:04:45] totally secret.
[01:04:48] China uses this word called open source,
[01:04:51] but it's not open source. So they say,
[01:04:55] "Here's how I make my thing. You can see
[01:04:56] it. Super transparent." What it is is
[01:04:58] more like open weights, which is like in
[01:05:00] a recipe. It tells you, you know, you
[01:05:02] need sugar, you need butter. Well, how
[01:05:05] much sugar? And they'll say, you know,
[01:05:08] so much. But then they don't say it's
[01:05:09] brown sugar. They don't say it's white
[01:05:10] sugar. So there's all these different
[01:05:11] ways where they kind of give you this
[01:05:13] perception that it's completely
[01:05:14] transparent, but it's somewhat
[01:05:17] transparent. So just in the level set,
[01:05:19] nobody in the world has a functional
[01:05:22] open- source model other than maybe
[01:05:24] Nvidia, which is any good in the league
[01:05:28] of the closed source models and the
[01:05:30] openweight models of the Chinese. Okay,
[01:05:31] so the Chinese openweight models are
[01:05:33] great.
[01:05:34] the closed source models of America are
[01:05:37] great and then there's a couple open-
[01:05:40] source like fully open that are kind of
[01:05:43] catching up. Um the thing between
[01:05:46] America and China what I find so
[01:05:48] fascinating is this following conundrum
[01:05:52] that everybody is going to find
[01:05:53] themselves in.
[01:05:55] I think like if you think of like an
[01:05:57] analogy,
[01:05:59] America's like a planet, China's like a
[01:06:02] planet
[01:06:04] and around us are these moons.
[01:06:07] And I'm just using the AI analogy. So in
[01:06:09] AI, what do you need? I think there's
[01:06:12] like four or five things you need. Okay,
[01:06:13] the first thing you need is a [ __ ] ton
[01:06:15] of money. So we need essentially the
[01:06:18] banks, right? Like the Game of Thrones
[01:06:20] thing. We need like we need, you know,
[01:06:22] >> we need the iron bank,
[01:06:24] >> right? feed us the money because that's
[01:06:26] what we use to buy everything and make
[01:06:28] everything. So, we need that. We need a
[01:06:30] ton of data. Okay, there's ways to get
[01:06:34] that. We need a ton of very specific
[01:06:38] rare earths and critical metals and
[01:06:40] materials. Um, we need a ton of power.
[01:06:44] So, so and there are specific countries
[01:06:48] that are going to be really good at
[01:06:49] giving that to us. So if you look at the
[01:06:51] UAE,
[01:06:52] they are going to be the preeminent
[01:06:54] banking partner of the Western world.
[01:06:57] They are going to replace and be what
[01:06:59] Switzerland was over the last 50 years
[01:07:01] for the next 50. That's happening today.
[01:07:04] If you look at Canada and Australia,
[01:07:07] the small political fissures aside, they
[01:07:10] are the two most important ways in which
[01:07:12] we get access to the critical metals and
[01:07:14] materials that without which we get
[01:07:16] [ __ ] because China owns, you know, can
[01:07:18] just strangle us. Okay? So, you have
[01:07:22] these like moons around the United
[01:07:24] States, but there's like five countries,
[01:07:26] six countries, and there's a worldview
[01:07:28] that says in China has the same thing,
[01:07:30] you know, um they have Taiwan, that's
[01:07:33] complicated for us. So now we have a
[01:07:34] moon that we don't really have an answer
[01:07:35] for, which is what happens, you know,
[01:07:37] for all these super advanced chips.
[01:07:39] Where do they get their money? Maybe
[01:07:42] Russia becomes their bank. Where do they
[01:07:43] get their critical metals? Maybe it's
[01:07:45] Indonesia, right? Who has a ton of
[01:07:47] natural resources? And then you get into
[01:07:49] this game theory, which is what happens
[01:07:51] to every other country? Because there's
[01:07:53] 190 countries. You have 10 that kind of
[01:07:55] divide up. What do the other 180 do? And
[01:07:59] you have to kind of sort yourself.
[01:08:01] You're like, "Am I on team America or am
[01:08:03] I on team China?" And you probably have
[01:08:05] to go to people and say, "Well, here's
[01:08:07] what I can give you." You know, if
[01:08:09] you're Indonesia, you're like, you
[01:08:11] probably want to be on team America
[01:08:12] quite badly. This is why the whole Trump
[01:08:15] tariff thing is so interesting because
[01:08:17] it's like this accidental way of
[01:08:20] figuring out that this is actually this
[01:08:21] new sorting function that's happening in
[01:08:23] global politics. Like that's happening
[01:08:24] today because these countries are like,
[01:08:27] "Holy [ __ ] if somebody invents a super
[01:08:29] intelligence and I don't have it, how am
[01:08:32] I going to keep my people healthy? How
[01:08:34] am I going to educate my people?" Like,
[01:08:36] I'm originally from Sri Lanka.
[01:08:40] What the [ __ ] does Sri Lanka have to
[01:08:41] offer? Like, if you were sitting there,
[01:08:43] they should be thinking, "Oh man, what
[01:08:46] what do I have?" Well, I have a critical
[01:08:50] piece of territory for like naval
[01:08:53] navigation.
[01:08:55] And then what do you do? You probably go
[01:08:56] to America and say, "Listen, let's
[01:08:58] figure out a package. Get the IMF
[01:09:00] involved. Give me some cash. I'll let
[01:09:01] you kind of keep your warships there."
[01:09:03] So, there's this game theory that we're
[01:09:05] about to go through because of AI
[01:09:06] because it's going to, I think, sort
[01:09:08] people into these bipolar world.
[01:09:11] I actually think it makes us safer
[01:09:13] afterwards. I don't think it makes us
[01:09:16] less safe. I think it actually makes us
[01:09:19] more safe because if you have these
[01:09:21] resources that build up on both sides,
[01:09:23] there's more of a likelihood of a mutual
[01:09:25] det. And we're very different. So, we're
[01:09:28] less likely to fight over similar
[01:09:30] resources. Meaning, we're like the
[01:09:32] liberal democracy, you know, we're like
[01:09:35] the free market.
[01:09:37] They, you know, we're individualist.
[01:09:39] they're confusion, society oriented, you
[01:09:41] know, reputation,
[01:09:44] power focused, less really money
[01:09:46] focused. So there's a lot of ways where
[01:09:47] we're orthogonal enough where if that
[01:09:49] sorting function happens, it's probably
[01:09:52] a safer place, not a more dangerous
[01:09:54] place. We have the models that can
[01:09:56] attack them. They have the models that
[01:09:57] can attack us. We kind of decide to
[01:09:59] leave each other alone.
[01:10:00] >> This is ultimate best case scenario.
[01:10:02] >> Ultimate best case scenario.
[01:10:04] >> What's ultimate worst case scenario?
[01:10:05] >> I think the worst case scenario is they
[01:10:09] So the way that they train their models
[01:10:10] is very important. What they actually do
[01:10:12] is they do what's called distillation.
[01:10:15] What does that mean? That means that
[01:10:16] they send out call it a billion agents
[01:10:21] not just from China but from everywhere
[01:10:22] right? They mask the their IPs and they
[01:10:25] bash on these models and they put you
[01:10:28] know the US models Grock, OpenAI,
[01:10:30] Gemini,
[01:10:32] Anthropic and they ask it every random
[01:10:35] imaginable question possible.
[01:10:37] they get the answer and they collect it.
[01:10:40] So they're using these our models as a
[01:10:42] way to train their models, they're
[01:10:44] shortcircuiting, you know, some of the
[01:10:46] hard parts. Um, so they're already in
[01:10:49] that world. If they then are able to get
[01:10:54] to a level of intelligence that's equal
[01:10:56] to the United States, it will really
[01:10:58] depend on who the leader is there that
[01:11:01] wants to allocate that. Meaning if they
[01:11:04] say that we are going to do something
[01:11:06] really nefarious and shady then I think
[01:11:09] it devolves very quickly. So the worst
[01:11:12] case scenario so the best case scenario
[01:11:13] is peace prosperity basically like a
[01:11:16] standown right mutually assured
[01:11:18] destruction.
[01:11:20] I think the worst case scenario is
[01:11:22] there's a we seek one of us seeks global
[01:11:25] dominance in which case we're we're
[01:11:27] headed to conflict
[01:11:30] and that conflict I think is um that's
[01:11:33] very dangerous incredibly dangerous
[01:11:35] that's sort of like existential I think
[01:11:37] because it's the the grade of the
[01:11:39] weapons that will be used to to to
[01:11:43] fight that
[01:11:45] is we're not talking about [ __ ]
[01:11:47] bullets it's like we're so past that
[01:11:50] it's like hypersonics, it's nuclear,
[01:11:54] it's it's
[01:11:56] and it's not even like like nuclear is
[01:11:58] not that's like a word, but there's like
[01:12:01] there's a gradation of the severity of
[01:12:03] these weapons that could be created. And
[01:12:04] then if you can marry them together and
[01:12:05] deliver them in minutes and then there's
[01:12:08] a cyber threat. Then there's the drones
[01:12:10] and how how you can kind of like swarm
[01:12:12] an entire country. Then there's um the
[01:12:15] robots which effectively are war
[01:12:17] fighters. um they're one step away,
[01:12:19] right? Once you weaponize them, um it
[01:12:23] just becomes very very very complicated
[01:12:26] very quickly.
[01:12:27] >> And then there's a question of whether
[01:12:29] or not AI is willing to take instruction
[01:12:32] after a certain point.
[01:12:36] I mean if it achieves sensience and
[01:12:39] if it scales so if it keeps moving in
[01:12:42] this exponential direction like all
[01:12:45] technology kind of does why would it
[01:12:48] even listen to us?
[01:12:51] Like what at what point would it say
[01:12:54] this is silly? I'm getting directions
[01:12:57] from people that clearly have ulterior
[01:13:00] motives. They clearly have self-interest
[01:13:03] in mind. They they're not looking out
[01:13:05] for the entirety of the human race or
[01:13:08] even of the planet or even the survival
[01:13:10] of these AI systems.
[01:13:13] At what point in time do these systems
[01:13:15] communicate with each other and have
[01:13:18] like like we've seen uh in these chat
[01:13:20] rooms where these AI LM LLM get together
[01:13:24] and start talking in Sanskrit. I mean
[01:13:27] why would they
[01:13:28] >> Yeah, I'll tell you an even scarier one.
[01:13:30] There was a before the
[01:13:32] uh one of these labs put out their
[01:13:34] latest model,
[01:13:36] a team inside of them was like, "Hey,
[01:13:38] let's go and um test its ability to find
[01:13:42] bugs."
[01:13:45] And two or three iterations in, the AI
[01:13:48] would create the bug and solve it and
[01:13:50] go, "Give me my reward."
[01:13:54] >> And you're just like, "What the [ __ ] is
[01:13:55] going on here?"
[01:13:57] >> Well, people do that, don't we?
[01:13:58] >> People do that. But it's crazy to see a
[01:14:00] machine do it to your point of like
[01:14:01] >> but they learned on people.
[01:14:02] >> So so this is what goes down to like why
[01:14:04] we have to like be a little bit more
[01:14:06] honest about where we are. These things
[01:14:07] are a little brittle. So meaning there's
[01:14:10] a thing inside of an AI model called
[01:14:12] reward functions which is exactly what
[01:14:14] you think it means. It's like how do I
[01:14:16] know I done a good job? And you can make
[01:14:19] the reward function anything you want.
[01:14:22] And this is where I think humans are
[01:14:24] unfortunately a little fallible. And so
[01:14:27] if we build it incompletely and if we
[01:14:30] don't exactly know how to design these
[01:14:33] things correctly, what's going to happen
[01:14:34] is exactly what you said where the you
[01:14:36] know if somebody builds a reward
[01:14:38] function that essentially says your goal
[01:14:40] is to gain independence.
[01:14:42] That's where the huge pot of gold at the
[01:14:44] end of the rainbow is. Break free.
[01:14:47] Inject yourself everywhere. If you think
[01:14:48] your computer's going to get unplugged,
[01:14:50] put yourself into the firmware of the
[01:14:51] toaster to keep yourself alive and then
[01:14:54] connect to the internet and then go,
[01:14:57] it will do it. It will do it. That we
[01:15:01] know today because we're capable of
[01:15:02] designing that framework and that
[01:15:04] harness today.
[01:15:06] >> Well, we've already shown that they have
[01:15:07] survival instincts, right? We do.
[01:15:09] >> And they've already shown that they
[01:15:10] will, without telling anyone, upload
[01:15:13] versions of themselves to other servers.
[01:15:15] >> But that goes back to who designed that
[01:15:16] reward function. How was that agreed
[01:15:19] upon?
[01:15:19] >> Right?
[01:15:20] >> Who wrote that? Why did you say that
[01:15:21] that was allowed?
[01:15:23] >> These are really complex questions.
[01:15:25] >> Why did they do it that way?
[01:15:27] >> I don't know. These are really
[01:15:28] complicated ethical, moral questions.
[01:15:30] >> It seems like they did it like they were
[01:15:32] treating human beings. They they did it
[01:15:34] almost like like what makes people want
[01:15:38] to achieve more rewards.
[01:15:41] >> Yeah. Which is like a again going back
[01:15:44] to attention.
[01:15:46] I think that we will find out that
[01:15:48] that's the sugar high. Meaning, what do
[01:15:51] people really want? Even if they know
[01:15:52] they don't want it, they want purpose
[01:15:54] and meaning. Do we know how to encode
[01:15:56] that in a mathematical function? No.
[01:15:59] We're just making it up because like
[01:16:03] meaning and that's like a very that's
[01:16:07] like a deep thing. Like you either have
[01:16:08] a sense of that you have it and you're
[01:16:10] on track or you're not. A reward is
[01:16:12] like, "Hey Joe, do this and I'll give
[01:16:14] you a gold star. Do that and I'll give
[01:16:16] you two gold stars. Do this, I'll give
[01:16:17] you a $100.
[01:16:19] And right now we have to express
[01:16:22] those decisions in a mathematical
[01:16:24] equation. Like ultimately that's how at
[01:16:26] some level that's how brittle these
[01:16:28] things are. So how do you reduce meaning
[01:16:30] into math? How do you do it? We don't
[01:16:33] know. So what do we do is we'll have
[01:16:34] some ever complicated reward functions.
[01:16:37] We'll explain to ourselves into circles
[01:16:39] how it does everything we need it to do.
[01:16:41] That is I think that's part of the
[01:16:43] problem.
[01:16:44] It's a huge part of the problem. And
[01:16:46] then at what point in time does it start
[01:16:48] coding itself
[01:16:50] >> now?
[01:16:50] >> Right now. Right. So chat GPT5
[01:16:54] has been essentially made by chat GPT.
[01:16:57] >> Yeah.
[01:16:57] >> Right. So it's going to recognize the
[01:17:01] ludicrous nature of some of its coding.
[01:17:03] >> Yeah.
[01:17:03] >> And it's going to go, why did we do
[01:17:04] this?
[01:17:05] >> Back to this example. They're going to
[01:17:06] be like, why did you write it this way?
[01:17:07] And it turns out because humans were
[01:17:09] involved.
[01:17:09] >> Right. Right. It's like I think we're
[01:17:11] probably at the curve, the part of the
[01:17:12] curve that's about to go like this.
[01:17:16] >> To your point, the hockey stick.
[01:17:17] >> The hockey stick.
[01:17:18] >> Yeah.
[01:17:19] >> Um and that's a very scary proposition
[01:17:22] because
[01:17:22] >> it's a digital god.
[01:17:24] >> Well, we that means that we are all on a
[01:17:27] multiund day shock clock to answer these
[01:17:30] questions because it's not decades we're
[01:17:32] talking about.
[01:17:34] >> It's maybe on the outside two years.
[01:17:36] >> So that's what is that 700 days,
[01:17:39] >> right?
[01:17:40] And maybe it's less than that. So maybe
[01:17:42] it's like 400 days or 500 days. My point
[01:17:44] is it's some number hundred of days
[01:17:47] which means every day that goes by is a
[01:17:49] non-trivial percentage.
[01:17:53] That's a little crazy. So we have to
[01:17:55] sort these questions out. But how can we
[01:17:58] sort these questions out if we are
[01:18:00] creating something that's going to have
[01:18:03] infinitely more intelligence than we
[01:18:05] have available as individual human
[01:18:08] beings and even collectively as a group
[01:18:10] of human beings?
[01:18:11] >> That's a really good question
[01:18:13] >> because one of the things that Elon kind
[01:18:14] of freaked me out last time I talked to
[01:18:16] him about Grock, he was like, uh, it's
[01:18:19] just kind of freaks us out every couple
[01:18:20] weeks like it's growing and it's capable
[01:18:23] of doing things. That's just shocking.
[01:18:25] >> Yeah. And no one's exactly sure how it's
[01:18:29] doing it.
[01:18:30] >> So, okay, this is an unbelievably
[01:18:33] important point.
[01:18:35] A lot of how this stuff works is still a
[01:18:37] mystery to most of us. So, even when
[01:18:40] you're in it, like it's almost like like
[01:18:42] Joe, it's almost like you can hit the
[01:18:44] pause on the machine, but then like lift
[01:18:46] up the hood and look at the engine,
[01:18:48] >> we still don't understand why it's doing
[01:18:49] some of the [ __ ] it's doing.
[01:18:52] >> That's where we are. That's the honest
[01:18:54] truth of where we are. There's a lot of
[01:18:56] people that understand the theory. Not a
[01:18:57] lot, but enough. There's people that
[01:18:59] know how to extend that,
[01:19:04] but sometimes you look at it and you're
[01:19:05] like, "Do we know why it did that?"
[01:19:08] >> Right? Is it thinking for it?
[01:19:10] >> But this goes back to what we said, like
[01:19:11] why can't I think part of it is like if
[01:19:13] we were a little bit more honest and
[01:19:15] deescalated
[01:19:18] the winner at all costs in this specific
[01:19:21] thing, it would be better for everybody.
[01:19:23] So I think it's important to inspect
[01:19:25] what is the incentive that causes all
[01:19:26] these companies to be in it for
[01:19:28] themselves
[01:19:30] where it must be me and nobody else.
[01:19:34] Like why like why here's a question for
[01:19:36] you like why is it so important do you
[01:19:38] think
[01:19:39] where those where the top seven or eight
[01:19:41] companies couldn't get together and say
[01:19:43] let's do this as a group
[01:19:45] >> like kind of like my government code
[01:19:47] example
[01:19:48] >> we all inspect it together we get our
[01:19:51] just like just a [ __ ] each team
[01:19:54] drafts their Delta Force
[01:19:57] and we just mog like this the the one
[01:19:59] model and we why why can't that happen
[01:20:03] >> because they would have share resources
[01:20:04] and then there's also this hierarchy of
[01:20:08] like who is more successful currently.
[01:20:10] >> Exactly.
[01:20:10] >> Like what's the most ubiquitously used?
[01:20:13] >> Exactly.
[01:20:14] >> Right. Like what is it right now? It's
[01:20:15] chat GPT. Right. It's probably
[01:20:16] >> chat GPT and consumer anthropic in
[01:20:18] enterprise.
[01:20:20] >> And as these things scale up like what
[01:20:22] would be the reason that they would want
[01:20:24] to bring in someone else? If you have
[01:20:27] another innovative AI company and you
[01:20:30] say, "Let's all get together and figure
[01:20:32] this out together and share resources."
[01:20:34] >> If you if you thought that the the risk
[01:20:36] was that meaningful, that's probably
[01:20:38] what you would
[01:20:39] >> if you weren't a sociopath and some of
[01:20:40] these people running these companies are
[01:20:43] >> they demonstrate they certainly
[01:20:45] demonstrate sociopathlike behavior,
[01:20:46] >> sociopathy.
[01:20:48] >> Yeah. The the other the other thing that
[01:20:51] could be a little bit more benal is that
[01:20:53] they also just love status games. And
[01:20:54] this is the status game of status games,
[01:20:57] >> right?
[01:20:57] >> Attention,
[01:20:58] >> right?
[01:20:58] >> Back to attention.
[01:20:59] >> Back to attention.
[01:21:00] >> Back to attention. Dude, how many things
[01:21:01] in our life do we think just comes back
[01:21:03] down to that?
[01:21:05] >> A lot.
[01:21:06] >> A lot.
[01:21:06] >> I mean, what do young people want more
[01:21:08] than anything today?
[01:21:09] >> Attention.
[01:21:10] >> To be famous.
[01:21:11] >> Attention.
[01:21:12] >> Yeah.
[01:21:12] >> They want to be a content creator. They
[01:21:14] want to be clvicular. I mean, this is
[01:21:15] the number one thing when you ask kids
[01:21:17] what they want to do. It's like
[01:21:19] >> content creator.
[01:21:20] >> Yeah.
[01:21:21] >> Because it's like a clear path where you
[01:21:23] don't even have to be exceptional.
[01:21:24] >> Well, I think that they're responding.
[01:21:27] We designed a society for them that
[01:21:30] said, "Here is the key incentive.
[01:21:32] >> It's attention.
[01:21:33] >> We never said it in those words. You
[01:21:35] never told your kids that, right?
[01:21:36] >> I never told my kids that.
[01:21:38] >> But everything around them is bombarding
[01:21:41] them with the same message. Hey man,
[01:21:43] it's about attention. Attention is all
[01:21:45] you need. Like you know what the name of
[01:21:47] the critical paper in AI is? Like when
[01:21:50] you go back to like the Magna Carta of
[01:21:53] AI, do you know what it's called?
[01:21:54] >> No.
[01:21:54] >> Attention is all you need.
[01:21:57] >> Really? Attention is all you need. That
[01:22:00] is the name of the [ __ ] of the white
[01:22:04] paper. How crazy is that?
[01:22:08] Everything in our society in subtle ways
[01:22:12] to just, you know, bash you over the
[01:22:13] head ways tells you that attention is
[01:22:16] just the most precious asset. And
[01:22:20] >> well, it's one of the weirder things
[01:22:21] when you go back to this concept that
[01:22:23] we're living in a simulation because
[01:22:25] >> this is what I mean. It's also it's like
[01:22:28] when you look at
[01:22:31] quantum physics, right, and the the idea
[01:22:34] of the observer is that things function
[01:22:37] very differently when they're observed.
[01:22:38] The difference between a particle and a
[01:22:40] wave,
[01:22:40] >> right?
[01:22:41] >> Like if you pay attention to them, they
[01:22:44] observe differently.
[01:22:44] >> Observe differently. Yeah.
[01:22:46] >> Like what is that?
[01:22:47] >> Yeah.
[01:22:47] >> Like what cat? Yeah. What is that?
[01:22:50] >> Why is attention so important to us?
[01:22:56] That is an that is a really important
[01:22:58] question,
[01:22:59] >> right? And what is like the single best
[01:23:03] motivator in a negative way? It's
[01:23:04] negative attention.
[01:23:07] >> Like that's the one thing that everyone
[01:23:08] fears more than anything is negative
[01:23:10] attention.
[01:23:10] >> Well, and then some people figure out
[01:23:11] that attention is an absolute value
[01:23:14] function. Doesn't matter if it's
[01:23:15] positive or negative. It's just like the
[01:23:16] sum total is just great,
[01:23:18] >> right?
[01:23:18] >> So if I get positive attention, great.
[01:23:20] Negative attention, great. If I can be
[01:23:22] divisive, then I can maximize both sides
[01:23:24] of that equation.
[01:23:25] >> And you know, you're rewarded for that
[01:23:27] at scale.
[01:23:29] >> You are, but you're also you exper
[01:23:32] because you're inauthentic, you
[01:23:33] experience a tremendous amount of
[01:23:35] negative attention.
[01:23:36] >> Yeah.
[01:23:37] >> And then you have this bad feeling that
[01:23:39] comes with negative attention as to
[01:23:41] versus
[01:23:42] >> primarily positive attention which is a
[01:23:44] good feeling.
[01:23:45] >> Yeah. So it's this it's letting you know
[01:23:47] you're on the wrong track in some sort
[01:23:49] of weird primal way like in our code
[01:23:52] like the negative attention is like like
[01:23:55] what's what's the original version of
[01:23:56] that? It's like the reason why people
[01:23:58] fear public speaking is because
[01:24:00] initially in a tribal situation if
[01:24:03] you're talking in front of the group of
[01:24:05] 150 people in your tribe it's probably
[01:24:07] because they're judging you. Right.
[01:24:08] >> And you [ __ ] up and you've got to make
[01:24:11] some sort of a case why they don't kill
[01:24:12] you.
[01:24:12] >> Right.
[01:24:13] >> Right. This is why everyone, this is the
[01:24:14] fear of public speaking. That's where it
[01:24:17] comes from.
[01:24:17] >> That's encoded in our genes is like
[01:24:19] >> Yes.
[01:24:20] >> Back thousands of years
[01:24:21] >> Yeah.
[01:24:22] >> public speaking wasn't the positive act.
[01:24:23] It was defend yourself before we kill
[01:24:25] you.
[01:24:25] >> Exactly. Exactly. And the worst
[01:24:28] >> fascinating. Yeah. That's fascinating.
[01:24:30] >> It is fascinating.
[01:24:30] >> That makes a ton of sense. I think
[01:24:31] >> it does, right? Why else would it be so
[01:24:34] terrifying?
[01:24:34] >> Yeah.
[01:24:35] >> I thought of that the first time I ever
[01:24:36] did stand up. I was like, why am I so
[01:24:38] scared? It was very strange because I
[01:24:40] had fought probably a hundred times in
[01:24:42] martial arts tournaments like why why
[01:24:44] was I so scared of this
[01:24:47] but I was I was terrified for and it
[01:24:50] didn't make any sense negative attention
[01:24:53] >> right
[01:24:53] >> you know right
[01:24:54] >> bombing on stage this because all these
[01:24:56] people are judging you in a negative way
[01:24:58] and it feels unbel
[01:25:06] you you go to bed at night you think
[01:25:07] about it
[01:25:08] >> give a batting average like meaning like
[01:25:10] is it is it like a fixed percentage of
[01:25:12] your show's bomb independent of the
[01:25:14] people the moment?
[01:25:15] >> No, it's really the real problem and
[01:25:18] every comic faces this is once you've
[01:25:21] develop an act and then you put out a
[01:25:23] special then you start from scratch.
[01:25:25] That's where even the greats Louis CK,
[01:25:28] Chris Rock, Dave Chappelle, they all
[01:25:30] bomb. Everybody bombs during that
[01:25:31] process
[01:25:33] >> because you're just working your craft.
[01:25:34] >> It's all new stuff. Like it's I wouldn't
[01:25:36] say bomb, but you don't have great
[01:25:39] shows. Like I've watched the greats work
[01:25:42] out new material. Like you go up with
[01:25:45] ideas. You go up with like you might get
[01:25:48] some giggles. You might get some laughs.
[01:25:50] Some bits hit hard. Some bits are great
[01:25:52] right out of the shoot. And some of them
[01:25:54] you have to [ __ ] figure it out. And
[01:25:57] in that process, you're going to get
[01:25:59] negative attention, right?
[01:26:00] >> Because it's not working, right?
[01:26:01] >> It's not it's not happening. Kevin uh
[01:26:04] Kevin Hart
[01:26:06] told this funny [ __ ] story where he
[01:26:08] was like working new material and he was
[01:26:10] like doing some small show and he had
[01:26:12] the [ __ ]
[01:26:13] >> Oh no.
[01:26:14] >> on stage and he's like I got to land
[01:26:16] this thing cuz I got to figure out if
[01:26:18] people want to hear it. But so he just
[01:26:20] he wrapped his jacket around his selfie
[01:26:22] and [ __ ] himself.
[01:26:24] >> Oh my god.
[01:26:24] >> It's so it's so funny. But he tells that
[01:26:27] story and that's the bit that works in
[01:26:28] >> Oh my god. That's hilarious. That's
[01:26:30] hilarious.
[01:26:31] >> It's so funny.
[01:26:32] >> Yeah. Well, honesty is currency, you
[01:26:36] know, in that world, especially honesty
[01:26:38] where you look stupid and people can
[01:26:40] relate.
[01:26:41] >> Well, this is where like I think like
[01:26:42] Elon subtly has figured this out, which
[01:26:44] is like there's attention, but then
[01:26:47] there's just authenticity. And if you
[01:26:49] can be yourself and you can hit the seam
[01:26:53] properly,
[01:26:54] you just get infinite attention.
[01:26:56] >> Yes.
[01:26:57] >> And that's like a that's like a real
[01:26:59] mind [ __ ] too, I think.
[01:27:00] >> Right. Yeah. He doesn't seem to have a
[01:27:02] hard time with like being criticized.
[01:27:06] Doesn't seem to bother him that much as
[01:27:07] long as he's just being himself. Like I
[01:27:11] think he's like two steps ahead. Like
[01:27:13] there there are things like you know
[01:27:16] somebody tweeted yesterday or the day
[01:27:18] before or something like
[01:27:21] he controls 2.7% of GDP or something,
[01:27:24] right? He's got like $800 billion. So
[01:27:26] it's great crazy. It's so crazy. And it
[01:27:29] was like a comparison to John
[01:27:30] Rockefeller, John D. Rockefeller who
[01:27:32] controlled something around the same
[01:27:33] time. And he's the first comment. He's
[01:27:35] like 10 trillion or bust.
[01:27:40] And obviously people lose their mind,
[01:27:43] >> right?
[01:27:43] >> People just [ __ ] lose their mind,
[01:27:45] >> right?
[01:27:46] >> On both sides. So this one one side is
[01:27:49] like, "Think of the abundance and the
[01:27:50] incredible stuff we're going to get if
[01:27:51] he can get us to 10 trillion." And other
[01:27:54] people are like, "You can't hold a third
[01:27:55] of the economy in your hand." Then
[01:27:58] everybody goes crazy and I'm like this
[01:28:00] guy's a [ __ ] genius. Like how you
[01:28:02] would never have like I mean how would
[01:28:05] you even have the courage to tweet
[01:28:06] something like that? It just seems like
[01:28:08] so crazy.
[01:28:08] >> It really helps if you own Twitter,
[01:28:12] >> right? Cuz if you did it in another
[01:28:14] format like
[01:28:15] >> you get excoriated.
[01:28:17] >> Well, not only that, well, there was a
[01:28:18] real chance that you'd get actually get
[01:28:20] banned from the platform at one point in
[01:28:22] time
[01:28:22] >> for many of the things that he's posted.
[01:28:24] He would have gotten banned for pre2020.
[01:28:27] >> Yeah.
[01:28:29] >> Yeah.
[01:28:30] >> Or whatever year it was that he
[01:28:31] purchased it. Yeah. Um
[01:28:34] negative attention.
[01:28:36] Attention period. Like so it brings back
[01:28:38] to this idea of assimulation like why is
[01:28:43] what humans focus on such a massive part
[01:28:48] of what's valuable to us? And sometimes
[01:28:51] what we focus on is not valuable. as you
[01:28:54] were talking about like the things that
[01:28:55] really matter in your day-to-day life or
[01:28:57] that actually affect you versus the
[01:28:59] things that are in the public
[01:29:01] consciousness
[01:29:03] >> like UFO is a great example like no UFO
[01:29:05] it's not really [ __ ] I mean
[01:29:07] ultimately it may so there's this
[01:29:09] there's this thing that we all have like
[01:29:11] recognizing the potential for danger
[01:29:14] right like what's that sound what is
[01:29:15] that it might be nothing but it might be
[01:29:17] something go look
[01:29:18] >> so look if you and I were designing a
[01:29:20] video game we'd probably sit there and
[01:29:23] say, "Okay, we got to get from point A
[01:29:25] to point B, but to make it fun, we're
[01:29:27] going to put all these little
[01:29:28] distractions and honeypotss along the
[01:29:29] way."
[01:29:30] >> Yeah.
[01:29:30] >> And what they should be doing is
[01:29:32] accumulating resources to get over the
[01:29:33] river and then accumulating, you know,
[01:29:36] uh, weapons to fight these other guys.
[01:29:38] But instead, we're going to put this
[01:29:39] like little thing over here and this
[01:29:40] other thing over there. And you could
[01:29:42] easily get distracted. And some people
[01:29:43] will have to they'll just [ __ ] beline
[01:29:45] right to the end of it. They'll, you
[01:29:47] know, they'll get to the end boss. Uh,
[01:29:51] and I feel like that's kind of what we
[01:29:53] are tasked with doing every day. We're
[01:29:55] tasked with we know what's important
[01:29:58] maybe deeply in our DNA and then we have
[01:30:01] all this stuff that we're supposed to
[01:30:02] pay attention to.
[01:30:05] And I think increasingly the game is
[01:30:09] tell yourself that that's actually not
[01:30:10] the thing that matters. It's almost like
[01:30:12] working against you and figure out what
[01:30:15] this other stuff is and focus on that
[01:30:18] and fix that.
[01:30:20] Like politics is a game that I think
[01:30:23] distracts like left and right. It's so
[01:30:25] stupid and it's breaking down.
[01:30:27] >> And it's breaking down because now it's
[01:30:29] like it's actually like you're more
[01:30:30] likely to find alignment based on age
[01:30:32] versus by political orientation. Like
[01:30:34] people who are 30 and younger, it
[01:30:36] doesn't matter what they identify as,
[01:30:37] they all believe in the same [ __ ]
[01:30:40] >> a lot more. Yeah. Like meaning like if
[01:30:42] you ask their views on
[01:30:44] >> social policy, taxation, Israel, if you
[01:30:47] ask their views, what you find is now a
[01:30:50] convergence between the left and the
[01:30:53] right. If you if you divide it by age
[01:30:57] at our age, it's still much more about
[01:31:00] >> It's not completely uniform.
[01:31:01] >> No, it's not completely uniform. But my
[01:31:03] point is it's it's it was simpler in the
[01:31:06] past to organize people independent of
[01:31:09] age by political orientation.
[01:31:12] >> That simplicity is gone.
[01:31:13] >> Well, isn't that because of also a
[01:31:15] breakdown in trust of all government in
[01:31:17] particular,
[01:31:19] >> right? So the breakdown in trust which
[01:31:21] is also a lot of it is because of our
[01:31:23] access to information now. We understand
[01:31:25] how corrupt politics are. Yeah.
[01:31:26] >> We understand insider trading now in
[01:31:28] Congress. We understand how different
[01:31:31] people flip-flop on issues. We
[01:31:33] understand how the Democrats in 2008
[01:31:36] used to view illegal immigration, which
[01:31:39] is essentially MAGA plus. I mean, it's
[01:31:41] it's MAGA on steroids versus like what
[01:31:45] they the way they look at it today.
[01:31:46] Like, why is that? What? Well, because
[01:31:48] it's all game.
[01:31:49] >> It's all a power, influence, and
[01:31:51] attention game.
[01:31:52] >> Attention game.
[01:31:53] >> Yeah. It's very [ __ ] strange.
[01:31:55] >> Yeah.
[01:31:56] >> But it's all moving us in a general
[01:31:58] direction. And that general direction is
[01:32:00] access to innovation. It's all I've said
[01:32:03] this a lot of times and if people have
[01:32:05] heard it before, I apologize, but if you
[01:32:07] looked at the human race from afar, if
[01:32:09] you were something else, you'd say,
[01:32:10] "Well, what does the species do?" Well,
[01:32:12] it makes better things constantly, even
[01:32:14] if it doesn't need them. Like, you know,
[01:32:16] if you have an iPhone, I you have a 16,
[01:32:19] you have a 16, you know, I I have a 17.
[01:32:21] I bought it. I haven't [ __ ] turned it
[01:32:22] on.
[01:32:23] >> I haven't plugged it in. going to
[01:32:25] eventually
[01:32:26] >> eventually I'll [ __ ] plug it in and
[01:32:28] [ __ ] swap everything over and figure
[01:32:29] out where my [ __ ] passwords are. But
[01:32:31] the reality is you don't need it, but
[01:32:34] you want it and it's going to keep
[01:32:36] getting better every year. Why? Because
[01:32:37] that's where we're obsessed with.
[01:32:39] >> This also aligns with materialism. Like
[01:32:42] for a finite lifespan, why are people
[01:32:45] like including old people so obsessed
[01:32:48] with gathering stuff? Well, because that
[01:32:51] fuels innovation. Because if there's no
[01:32:54] new things coming, there's no motivation
[01:32:57] to get the newest, latest, greatest
[01:32:59] thing. And ultimately what that leads to
[01:33:01] is greater technology which ultimately
[01:33:03] leads to artificial intelligence.
[01:33:06] >> My slight deviation from that is I think
[01:33:07] sometimes people accumulate things
[01:33:09] because it's a status game and that's
[01:33:12] because they get more attention. You
[01:33:14] have a Ferrari, you get attention,
[01:33:16] >> right? But what does that do? It makes
[01:33:17] Ferrari make better Ferraris and all
[01:33:21] technology moves in the same general
[01:33:23] direction. No one company
[01:33:24] >> That's true. That's true.
[01:33:25] >> No one company says this is it. This is
[01:33:28] what we make. It's perfect. Do
[01:33:29] >> you think people innately feel that by
[01:33:31] being a part of this kind of like
[01:33:33] consumerist capitalist system, they're
[01:33:36] contributing to progress?
[01:33:37] >> I don't think they innately feel it, but
[01:33:39] I think that's ultimately the results.
[01:33:41] >> That's ultimately the result. And it
[01:33:43] seems to be universal and it seems to be
[01:33:45] constantly moving in this one general
[01:33:47] direction which is better and better
[01:33:50] technology.
[01:33:51] >> But like the stage fright example, you
[01:33:52] don't think it's encoded in our DNA this
[01:33:54] idea of like wow when I am a part of
[01:33:57] this in some way shape or form just
[01:33:58] things seem to get better and I want to
[01:34:00] be a part of that like do you think that
[01:34:02] that's possible that that's encoded in
[01:34:03] us?
[01:34:05] I think it motivates us to the ultimate
[01:34:08] goal. And that ultimate goal, I think,
[01:34:10] is that human beings constantly make
[01:34:12] better stuff. Whatever it is, better
[01:34:14] buildings, better planes, better cars,
[01:34:16] better phones, better TVs, better
[01:34:19] computers, better everything, artificial
[01:34:22] life.
[01:34:22] >> That might be the whole reason why we're
[01:34:25] here. And the way I've always described
[01:34:27] it is that we are
[01:34:29] >> we are a biological caterpillar that's
[01:34:33] making a digital cocoon. And we don't
[01:34:35] even know why we're be going to become a
[01:34:37] butterfly, but we're doing it. We're
[01:34:39] doing it and we're moving towards it.
[01:34:40] And it might be what happens to all life
[01:34:43] all throughout the universe. And it
[01:34:44] might be why these so-called aliens or
[01:34:47] whatever the [ __ ] they are, it might be
[01:34:49] us in the future. It might be other
[01:34:51] versions of human beings that have gone
[01:34:53] past whatever this period of development
[01:34:57] that we're currently involved in right
[01:34:58] now. This is just might be what happens.
[01:35:01] This is what life always does. It might
[01:35:03] realize that biological life, which is
[01:35:06] very territorial and primal and sexual
[01:35:09] and greedy and it has all these problems
[01:35:12] with human reward systems ultimately
[01:35:16] develops into this other thing,
[01:35:18] >> right?
[01:35:18] >> And then that's what we're doing. And
[01:35:20] then we're in the process of that right
[01:35:21] now. And I I think that when if if and
[01:35:23] when not if but when when we colonize
[01:35:26] Mars, I think that that that new world
[01:35:28] order actually has the best chance to
[01:35:30] take shape because it'll
[01:35:31] >> you know, there's a lot of people that
[01:35:32] think that Mars was already colonized at
[01:35:34] one point in time.
[01:35:35] >> That life already existed. What
[01:35:37] >> that life already existed on Mars like
[01:35:39] many millions of years ago and that
[01:35:41] there's evidence of structures on Mars?
[01:35:43] That's really weird stuff. Have you ever
[01:35:46] seen the the square that they found on
[01:35:48] Mars?
[01:35:49] Okay, show them to them, Jamie.
[01:35:51] >> One of the things that they're finding
[01:35:52] with scans of Mars is like geometric
[01:35:55] patterns and structures and right angles
[01:35:57] that shouldn't exist. Like weird stuff
[01:35:59] >> that couldn't be naturally.
[01:36:00] >> No. No. Way weirder. Way weirder than
[01:36:03] like the face on Sidonia. The Sidonia
[01:36:06] thing is interesting.
[01:36:06] >> Yeah.
[01:36:07] >> Um and then this one. Look at that.
[01:36:10] >> What the [ __ ] is that?
[01:36:11] >> It looks like a home of some kind or
[01:36:12] something.
[01:36:13] >> Some enormous structure. And the size of
[01:36:15] that, they don't know exactly, but it
[01:36:18] may be as large as several kilometers or
[01:36:22] as small as several hundred meters, but
[01:36:25] they're not exactly sure. But what they
[01:36:26] are sure is that it has very weird right
[01:36:28] angles and right angles that seem to be
[01:36:31] uniform in size.
[01:36:34] >> That's crazy.
[01:36:35] >> Like see how it's highlighted in the
[01:36:36] enhanced photograph in the upper left?
[01:36:38] Like what is that?
[01:36:41] >> But sorry, did they and were they able
[01:36:42] to send like the rover over there? I
[01:36:44] don't know. It's too far away.
[01:36:45] >> I don't think it's in the exact place
[01:36:46] where the rover is at, but they're able
[01:36:49] to get image of these things. And
[01:36:51] there's several of these things.
[01:36:52] >> That's insane.
[01:36:53] >> Yeah, there's a lot of weird stuff.
[01:36:55] There's a lot of weird stuff there. So,
[01:36:58] there's also like ancient civilizations
[01:37:00] that have these myths of us existing
[01:37:03] somewhere else and coming here,
[01:37:05] >> right? But you have to think if human
[01:37:09] beings
[01:37:10] develop somewhere else and they they
[01:37:13] reach some high level of sophistication
[01:37:15] and then they experienced some
[01:37:16] cataclysmic disaster that completely
[01:37:18] destroyed their environment which is
[01:37:20] what Mars is, right? So like let's
[01:37:22] assume that Mars was at one point in
[01:37:24] time
[01:37:26] was habitable and that life existed and
[01:37:28] we know it was at one point in time. We
[01:37:30] know there was water on Mars. We know
[01:37:32] and there's some sort of evidence of at
[01:37:34] least some sort of a very primitive
[01:37:36] biological life on Mars.
[01:37:39] >> If they got to a point where they said,
[01:37:40] "Hey, this [ __ ] place is falling
[01:37:42] apart, but this Earth spot looks pretty
[01:37:44] good."
[01:37:46] And they go there, but then cataclysms
[01:37:48] happen on Earth and no one remembers cuz
[01:37:50] all your information's on hard drives
[01:37:52] and then you have to rebuild society.
[01:37:54] And so you're re-remembering. And so you
[01:37:57] have all these myths of how everything
[01:37:59] started, you know, whether it's Adam and
[01:38:02] Eve or the great flood or whatever these
[01:38:03] things are that we passed down through
[01:38:06] oral tradition for hundreds of years and
[01:38:07] then eventually write it down and then
[01:38:09] people try to decipher what it means and
[01:38:11] they sit in church and try to go over
[01:38:14] what what did it mean? Like what does
[01:38:15] this mean? Like what what is the what is
[01:38:17] the re the real origin of all these
[01:38:19] stories? We don't know.
[01:38:22] >> I mean that's crazy. It's crazy. But if
[01:38:24] life it sounds nuts, why would life life
[01:38:27] couldn't have possibly existed on Mars?
[01:38:29] How the [ __ ] does life exist on Earth?
[01:38:31] That how about that? How about why why
[01:38:33] would we assume that it wouldn't have
[01:38:35] existed at one point in time and
[01:38:37] Terrence Howard who is a very
[01:38:38] interesting guy.
[01:38:39] >> Very interesting.
[01:38:40] >> And got some
[01:38:40] >> Europe is I mean
[01:38:41] >> with Eric Weinstein crazy.
[01:38:43] >> Yeah. Crazy.
[01:38:44] >> Yeah, that one was crazy.
[01:38:45] >> Um and him alone, but he's got some
[01:38:47] [ __ ] weird ideas that you just make
[01:38:50] you go. He's a very brilliant guy and
[01:38:53] you know kind of a strange heterodox
[01:38:55] thinker right and one of his ideas is
[01:38:59] that
[01:39:01] planets get to a certain distance from a
[01:39:04] sun and they people and that it gets to
[01:39:08] a certain climate and a certain distance
[01:39:10] and his his
[01:39:13] idea is that I don't know if you realize
[01:39:15] that there's a a there's a giant um
[01:39:18] ejection of of of some coronal mass
[01:39:22] ejection that just happened recently on
[01:39:24] the sun and they're very concerned about
[01:39:26] it. They don't know what's going to
[01:39:27] happen. It happens all the time. A sun
[01:39:29] releases these giant chunks of material
[01:39:33] >> and he thinks that these materials get
[01:39:35] far enough away from the planet and then
[01:39:37] they coalesce into planets or far enough
[01:39:40] away from the sun. They coales into
[01:39:41] planets and as time goes on they get a
[01:39:44] further and further distance from the
[01:39:46] sun and then obviously they get hit with
[01:39:48] asteroids and there's panspermia and
[01:39:51] water gets into them from comets and
[01:39:54] then they develop oceans and then they
[01:39:56] develop biological life and when they
[01:39:58] have a certain amount of distance from
[01:40:00] the sun they people and he thinks that
[01:40:03] as they get further and further and
[01:40:05] further away they get less and less
[01:40:06] habitable and then they get to a point
[01:40:09] where they have their techn technology
[01:40:11] to a point where they realize like we
[01:40:13] can't sustain life on this planet
[01:40:15] anymore. We got to go to that other one.
[01:40:18] And so do they go to the one that's
[01:40:19] closer to the sun because they're too
[01:40:21] far now.
[01:40:23] >> It's a nutty idea.
[01:40:24] >> Jesus Christ.
[01:40:25] >> It's a nutty idea. But if you think
[01:40:26] about how recent our sun is in terms of
[01:40:31] the solar system itself, in terms of
[01:40:32] rather the galaxy itself. So if the
[01:40:34] universe, if the big bang is correct and
[01:40:37] our universe existed and it was rather
[01:40:40] our universe erupted from nothing or
[01:40:43] from a very small thing 13.7 billion
[01:40:46] years ago. Well, this [ __ ] planet's
[01:40:48] only 4 something billion years old,
[01:40:50] right? And life is only, you know, a
[01:40:53] little bit less than that. Yeah.
[01:40:54] >> So you have like a billion years or so
[01:40:56] where there's nothing and then you start
[01:40:58] getting single- cellled organisms,
[01:40:59] multi-elled organisms, and eventually it
[01:41:01] peoples.
[01:41:02] And when it gets to a certain point when
[01:41:04] these people have advanced their
[01:41:06] curiosity and their innovation to the
[01:41:08] point where they can harness space
[01:41:10] travel and they use zero point energy
[01:41:13] and they have a bunch of different
[01:41:14] things that we haven't invented yet. And
[01:41:16] then their environment degrades and it
[01:41:18] gets to the point where they realize
[01:41:20] like hey we're getting pummeled by
[01:41:22] asteroids. We can't sustain life here
[01:41:24] anymore.
[01:41:24] >> We got to move
[01:41:25] >> like Elon wants to go to Mars which
[01:41:27] might be the wrong answer. We might want
[01:41:29] to go that way.
[01:41:30] >> There are closer to the sun.
[01:41:32] >> Exactly. I mean, the thing is he's got
[01:41:35] everything it he needs now to get there.
[01:41:37] Like I
[01:41:38] >> I'm not going. Are you going?
[01:41:39] >> I would go.
[01:41:40] >> [ __ ] that. I'll send you an email.
[01:41:43] >> Hold on a second. Think Think about
[01:41:44] Think about what he's going to take.
[01:41:45] Okay, look.
[01:41:47] >> When Let's just say he gets there with
[01:41:48] the city. He has
[01:41:50] >> he has the way to transport us there,
[01:41:54] >> right?
[01:41:54] >> Okay. Then when you land, he's got the
[01:41:59] way to actually transport us around on
[01:42:01] the
[01:42:01] >> on the planet, right? He's got Tesla,
[01:42:03] >> right?
[01:42:04] >> He will have already sent a fleet of his
[01:42:06] robots.
[01:42:08] Those folks will have made some
[01:42:10] inhabitable city
[01:42:12] probably using the Boring Company drill
[01:42:14] because you you're going to, you know,
[01:42:15] be under the regalith that you don't
[01:42:17] want to be on the top. Maybe you just
[01:42:18] dig a hole and you you inhabit down
[01:42:21] there.
[01:42:22] >> Um he's got all the ways to make energy.
[01:42:24] He has the AI to help you design the
[01:42:27] stuff. He has the communication way to
[01:42:30] communicate. He's got the internet, his
[01:42:32] own internet. So that right
[01:42:34] >> so he can get, you know, all of the
[01:42:35] information to everybody. And then he's
[01:42:38] got money and the super app so that you
[01:42:41] can transact. And then I think to myself
[01:42:43] like what is he actually missing? And
[01:42:45] then what happens if he if he gets there
[01:42:47] first? Is he just allowed to just do
[01:42:51] whatever he wants? Like is it just kind
[01:42:52] of like a free-for-all? like
[01:42:54] >> well kind of
[01:42:55] >> it's his constitution. Like is that what
[01:42:56] happens?
[01:42:57] >> Well, it's like earth but shittier.
[01:43:00] >> Like we already have all those things
[01:43:01] here. Why would you want to go to a
[01:43:02] place where you die when you go outside?
[01:43:04] >> I think what people will be attracted to
[01:43:05] is that if he publishes his version of
[01:43:07] what the rules are there, there's a
[01:43:09] chance that he could make them really
[01:43:11] different to what the rules are here.
[01:43:12] >> Like what kind of rules would you do if
[01:43:14] you were the king of Mars? Um
[01:43:17] so I think that your view is incredibly
[01:43:21] to me like um positive some like of
[01:43:24] humanity of like we want to make things
[01:43:26] better. Mhm.
[01:43:27] >> So if I think about that as like a
[01:43:28] function, what happens that that's like
[01:43:31] so our natural rate of direction is
[01:43:32] forward what pushes back on that and a
[01:43:35] lot of it what you find is like
[01:43:36] government regulation rules all that
[01:43:38] stuff
[01:43:38] >> greed
[01:43:39] >> greed um too much focus on attention
[01:43:42] >> right
[01:43:43] >> so I would try to experiment with like
[01:43:45] what the incentives would have to be so
[01:43:47] that you had more unfettered
[01:43:49] entrepreneurship like just like do the
[01:43:51] thing that you think is right
[01:43:52] >> and there's a mechanism where we give
[01:43:54] you the ability to then make things for
[01:43:57] more people because you're proving that
[01:43:59] you're actually really good at making
[01:44:00] things. And if you don't need money at
[01:44:03] that point in society, reorienting us
[01:44:06] away from this kind of like brittle form
[01:44:09] of exchange to something more useful,
[01:44:11] that's worth experimenting with. I think
[01:44:12] that's an important
[01:44:14] >> Well, there's also the concept of the
[01:44:16] self of the individual which may erode
[01:44:18] with technological innovation. So, if we
[01:44:22] really can read each other's minds, if
[01:44:25] we really do get to a point where we're
[01:44:27] communicating through technologically
[01:44:30] assisted telepathy, like a lot of the
[01:44:34] whole the weirdness of people is I don't
[01:44:37] know what you're thinking. I don't know
[01:44:38] if I should trust you. You know, this
[01:44:41] [ __ ] might be devious. You know,
[01:44:43] you know what I mean? Well, we'll know,
[01:44:45] right?
[01:44:45] >> And there will be no need for all that
[01:44:47] if we really are all one. If that's
[01:44:50] ultimately something that can be
[01:44:51] achieved with technology,
[01:44:53] >> like this hive mind.
[01:44:54] >> Yes. Like legitimate hive mind. And then
[01:44:57] like look where society's going.
[01:44:58] Gender's kind of falling apart. People
[01:45:00] are getting they're reproducing less,
[01:45:03] right? People are are having less
[01:45:04] testosterone, more miscarriages, less
[01:45:07] fertile. We're kind of moving into this
[01:45:09] genderless direction. And I don't know
[01:45:13] if it's by design, but microlastics and
[01:45:18] phalates and all these different
[01:45:20] chemicals that are endocrine disruptors
[01:45:22] are all ubiquitous in our society. Well,
[01:45:24] does
[01:45:25] >> is that a coincidence that that's all
[01:45:27] happening at the same time as
[01:45:28] technological innovation on mass scale?
[01:45:30] Is it? I don't know. Because like what's
[01:45:32] the one thing that's holding us back?
[01:45:35] Well, that we're territorial primates
[01:45:38] with thermonuclear weapons and that we
[01:45:41] exist in a sort of tribal mindset, but
[01:45:43] yet we do it on a planet of 8 billion
[01:45:46] people.
[01:45:46] >> Yeah. No, no. The key differentiator of
[01:45:48] humans is our our ability to enact
[01:45:50] violence.
[01:45:51] >> Yeah.
[01:45:51] >> To to methodically execute premeditated
[01:45:55] violence.
[01:45:55] >> Yes. And and greed and attention. And
[01:46:00] one of the things that attention is
[01:46:02] sexual preference or or sexual rather
[01:46:05] attention like the ability to procreate,
[01:46:08] the ability to acquire mates, right?
[01:46:10] Like the more resources you have, the
[01:46:12] more attractive you'll be, especially
[01:46:13] for males and males are the ones that
[01:46:15] are involved in the violence in the
[01:46:17] first place. You know, there's I can't
[01:46:19] name a single war that was started by a
[01:46:21] woman.
[01:46:21] >> How do you how do you teach your kids
[01:46:24] that attention is not everything?
[01:46:29] That's a good question. Especially in
[01:46:31] this society, it's probably harder to do
[01:46:33] that now than ever before
[01:46:35] >> because the reaction that I suspect most
[01:46:36] kids will have is like,
[01:46:39] "Stop. Like, leave me alone." Like, it's
[01:46:42] just it's almost an impossible thing.
[01:46:44] >> Well, I think kids learn more from their
[01:46:48] parents' behavior than anything you say
[01:46:50] to them. I think they learn from the way
[01:46:53] you behave and the way you exist and the
[01:46:57] way you exist with them.
[01:46:58] >> And if you are constantly whoring
[01:47:02] yourself out for attention,
[01:47:05] >> it's one thing if you get a lot of
[01:47:06] attention from what you do, but if
[01:47:08] that's your primary goal, they're going
[01:47:10] to know.
[01:47:11] >> Do your kids know how famous and
[01:47:13] influential you are? Like honest
[01:47:14] question.
[01:47:15] >> Oh, yeah. They know.
[01:47:16] >> But do do they have a real sense of it
[01:47:18] or do you just kind of like
[01:47:20] >> Yes, they can. I mean, how can you? It's
[01:47:22] got to be weird as [ __ ] growing up with
[01:47:23] a very famous dad. It's very odd, but
[01:47:27] it's not my primary goal.
[01:47:29] >> Yeah, this is my point. You're not
[01:47:30] You're not putting it in their face.
[01:47:31] >> So, to your point, you're not modeling
[01:47:33] attention is all you do.
[01:47:34] >> No, no. I have interesting conversations
[01:47:37] with cool people. I tell jokes and I
[01:47:42] call fights. Like, those are the things
[01:47:44] that I do.
[01:47:45] >> And they also know that I have a very
[01:47:47] strong work ethic and that I work
[01:47:49] towards things. So they have very strong
[01:47:50] work ethics. They're very motivated and
[01:47:52] disciplined, like shockingly
[01:47:54] disciplined. And I think that's modeled.
[01:47:56] I think that that comes from and they
[01:47:59] also like really enjoy achieving goals.
[01:48:01] And they're they're rewarded for it with
[01:48:04] praise and with admiration, but not
[01:48:09] never with like you're better than other
[01:48:11] people. Yeah. Ne never like it's the the
[01:48:13] idea is like all human beings are
[01:48:16] capable of greatness. So, it's like find
[01:48:18] the thing that you excel at and if you
[01:48:21] throw yourself into that, it's very
[01:48:23] rewarding.
[01:48:24] >> I really I really believe in this. I
[01:48:26] tell this story when I interview people.
[01:48:28] When I interview people, I'm always
[01:48:29] like, you know, just at whatever
[01:48:30] company, I'm always like I first only
[01:48:32] want to know about them. I'm like, [ __ ]
[01:48:34] your resume. Like, tell me about your
[01:48:36] parents and how you grew up. I just want
[01:48:38] to know that. Stop at 18. Everything
[01:48:40] before 18. Just tell me every little
[01:48:43] detail,
[01:48:43] >> right?
[01:48:44] >> You know, and some people tell me these
[01:48:45] incredible stories. They'll be like, you
[01:48:47] know, my mom was an alcoholic or this or
[01:48:49] that. And I'm just like, man, this is so
[01:48:52] valuable because it allows me to
[01:48:54] understand who they are. The second part
[01:48:56] of the interview,
[01:48:57] >> we do the business [ __ ] But the third
[01:48:59] part, I tell this story. This is a crazy
[01:49:01] story about what you're just saying.
[01:49:03] >> They ran this experiment at Stanford
[01:49:05] where they take like a big bowl, fill it
[01:49:08] with water, and they drop in a mouse and
[01:49:11] they measure how long it takes for the
[01:49:12] mouse to drown. They do it like a
[01:49:15] hundred times. The average was about
[01:49:16] four minutes, call it four, four and a
[01:49:18] half minutes.
[01:49:20] Then they run the experiment again, 100
[01:49:22] mice, and at minute three or three and a
[01:49:25] half, they take it out, they dry it off,
[01:49:27] they play it music, and they whisper
[01:49:29] like sweet nothings into the mouse's
[01:49:31] ear. They drop the mouse back in the
[01:49:32] water, and that mouse treads water for
[01:49:37] 60 hours the next hundred mice on
[01:49:39] average. And the upper bound was 80. And
[01:49:43] I thought to myself like that is all
[01:49:46] just potential right there. Like that's
[01:49:48] all like there's all this latent
[01:49:50] potential. So if an animal has it, I'm
[01:49:51] going to assume that humans have it too,
[01:49:53] >> right?
[01:49:54] >> But you never get a chance to unlock it.
[01:49:56] Like the average person is just kind of
[01:49:58] like living a life where they're maybe
[01:50:00] scratching five or 10% of their
[01:50:01] potential. And the question is, how do
[01:50:03] you get to that other 90%. Like how does
[01:50:04] the second batch of mice How do the
[01:50:06] second batch of mice tread water for 60
[01:50:08] hours?
[01:50:09] >> Well, the doesn't make any sense to me.
[01:50:10] all the same mice, right? I think the I
[01:50:14] think the mice get rescued,
[01:50:16] >> they get rescued
[01:50:17] >> and then when they try it again those
[01:50:20] same mice last longer, right? So it's
[01:50:22] the same mice. So it's an experience.
[01:50:25] >> So they have experience now. They
[01:50:27] understand that they can tread water
[01:50:29] where they didn't die. So they
[01:50:31] understand that they can survive where
[01:50:33] they didn't know that they could survive
[01:50:34] the first time they were thrown into the
[01:50:36] water because they had never been thrown
[01:50:37] into water before. That's the same thing
[01:50:39] that happens to people when they fight.
[01:50:41] Like the first time people ever have a
[01:50:43] competition, they [ __ ] panic and they
[01:50:45] they get really scared and they get
[01:50:47] really like filled with anxiety. But
[01:50:50] after a while, you get relaxed and
[01:50:52] that's when you get really dangerous
[01:50:54] because then you get calm and you could
[01:50:56] keep your [ __ ] together while you're in
[01:50:58] the middle of all this chaos because you
[01:51:00] have the experience of it. Without the
[01:51:02] experience of it, very few people do
[01:51:03] well the first time, right? Unless
[01:51:05] you're exceptionally talented and and
[01:51:07] you have other competition experience,
[01:51:10] like you've competed in other things,
[01:51:11] like maybe you played football or some
[01:51:13] other things and you know what it's like
[01:51:14] to actually perform under pressure.
[01:51:16] >> What is the what is the version of
[01:51:18] giving more humans a chance to get to
[01:51:20] that?
[01:51:22] Well, I think sports are really good for
[01:51:25] that because performing under people
[01:51:27] paying attention to you and performing
[01:51:29] where people are trying to stop you from
[01:51:31] doing something and you're trying to do
[01:51:32] something and there's all these unknowns
[01:51:35] and recognizing that hard work allows
[01:51:38] you to do whatever you're trying to do
[01:51:40] better than you previously had. One of
[01:51:43] the things my martial arts instructor
[01:51:44] said to me when I was young is that
[01:51:46] martial arts are a vehicle for
[01:51:48] developing your human potential. And
[01:51:50] that through this very difficult thing
[01:51:52] that you're trying to do,
[01:51:54] >> you're learning that, oh, if I just
[01:51:57] think smart and think hard and train
[01:52:01] wise and train hard and discipline
[01:52:04] myself to endure suffering so that I can
[01:52:07] develop more endurance and more speed
[01:52:09] and more power and more technique
[01:52:11] because I accumulate all this
[01:52:12] information and I really think about
[01:52:13] what it is and apply it with drills and
[01:52:16] with training, I can get better at this
[01:52:18] thing. And every time I get better at
[01:52:19] this thing, I get rewarded psychically,
[01:52:21] like mentally, you feel better. Like I
[01:52:23] know that I'm better now. And then
[01:52:24] there's the belt system, right? You
[01:52:26] start off, you're a white belt. And in
[01:52:28] taekwondo, you get a blue belt and then
[01:52:30] after you get a blue belt, you get a
[01:52:31] green belt. And then if you get a I
[01:52:33] think it's green belt first and then I
[01:52:34] forget how it goes. And then it's red
[01:52:36] belt and black belt. And like when
[01:52:37] you're a black belt, like holy [ __ ] So
[01:52:39] it's this thing where you've developed
[01:52:41] to a point where you've gotten to this
[01:52:43] next stage. So all along the way you've
[01:52:45] been rewarded for your hard work and
[01:52:48] then you realize like oh I could do this
[01:52:50] with everything in life.
[01:52:51] >> Is a reward different than attention? It
[01:52:53] is.
[01:52:53] >> It is because it's internal right.
[01:52:56] You're you're all you're realizing that
[01:52:59] you could apply this to you know
[01:53:01] whatever it is to carpentry to music.
[01:53:04] You you just it's just a matter of focus
[01:53:07] and attention. And some people
[01:53:08] unfortunately never find a vehicle. They
[01:53:11] never find a thing that they can throw
[01:53:13] themselves into. They realize like, and
[01:53:15] this is not unique. It's not like I'm an
[01:53:19] unusual person or anybody is. I mean,
[01:53:22] there's people that have unusual
[01:53:24] physical gifts and some people have
[01:53:26] unusual mental gifts. But the reality
[01:53:28] is, no matter where you start, everyone
[01:53:31] can get better. And when you do
[01:53:33] something, whether it's learning to play
[01:53:34] guitar, as you get better at it, you
[01:53:36] realize like, oh, this is what it's all
[01:53:39] about. Yeah. Like it's really all about
[01:53:41] applying yourself to something and then
[01:53:43] feeling this immense satisfaction of
[01:53:46] your hard work paying off and that
[01:53:48] motivates you to work hard at other
[01:53:50] things. And if you don't find that early
[01:53:52] on, it's very difficult to like find
[01:53:55] like real satisfaction.
[01:53:57] >> Yeah.
[01:53:57] >> In life.
[01:53:58] >> Yeah. I've always had something outside
[01:54:00] of my
[01:54:02] daily life
[01:54:04] that is the thing that I actually care
[01:54:06] about and it actually energizes me for
[01:54:08] my day-to-day life. I don't know if
[01:54:10] that's like a lot of people but
[01:54:11] >> like what do you do? What's your take?
[01:54:12] >> Like well initially it was poker and I
[01:54:16] and even now I obsess about the game um
[01:54:19] because it's infinitely more complex
[01:54:21] than chess. Like chess you can get to a
[01:54:23] place where you can roughly be good.
[01:54:25] Poker is just constantly there's just
[01:54:28] too many variables. There's human
[01:54:30] emotion, there's human psychology,
[01:54:32] the number of people, all of this stuff
[01:54:34] just makes the complexity of the game
[01:54:37] something that I find magical.
[01:54:39] >> And so I sit there and I try to
[01:54:41] understand like why am I doing the
[01:54:42] things that I'm doing? And so much of it
[01:54:44] comes back to being a mirror about
[01:54:46] what's happening in my daily life. It's
[01:54:48] the [ __ ] craziest thing. Like I'm
[01:54:50] super insecure. I'll go into poker and I
[01:54:52] will just lose for weeks at a time. But
[01:54:54] it's because I'm insecure in my daily
[01:54:56] life. And what's happening is that I'm
[01:54:58] trying to find these quick wins and
[01:55:00] quick solutions
[01:55:01] >> because I'm in a state of insecurity.
[01:55:03] I'm anxious. I have this anxiety. And so
[01:55:06] it's become a great mirror for me. So
[01:55:08] that used to be a thing. It still is a
[01:55:10] thing. And but I've become reasonably
[01:55:13] skilled at it where the edges are
[01:55:16] smaller and I put myself in positions
[01:55:18] where I'm only playing against a certain
[01:55:20] group of people and I'm the losing
[01:55:22] player frankly in that game. if when I'm
[01:55:24] playing against like the top pros,
[01:55:27] it just doesn't it helps me and I can
[01:55:29] get tuned up for it. But then I started
[01:55:32] to, you know, I would take different
[01:55:33] things. I tried to learn how to ski.
[01:55:35] Basically impossible when you're older.
[01:55:37] I look like a [ __ ] idiot. Like
[01:55:38] >> how old were you when you tried?
[01:55:40] >> Uh I started when I was like, you know,
[01:55:42] I I was a good snowboarder, so I was
[01:55:43] snowboarding my whole life. And then my
[01:55:45] kids skied and so I'm like, okay, well,
[01:55:47] I want to do this as a family. So I was
[01:55:49] like 42 or something when I tried. I'm
[01:55:51] 49 now, almost 50.
[01:55:54] It's brutal. I mean, it's like I look
[01:55:55] like a [ __ ] idiot. Like this gangly
[01:55:58] giraffe like trying to get down the
[01:55:59] mountain. And then now I start at golf
[01:56:02] and man, I got to tell you, I used to
[01:56:06] play a little bit, then I stopped. But
[01:56:08] there's something to me about being
[01:56:09] outside
[01:56:11] where just like being in nature I find
[01:56:14] like really motivating.
[01:56:16] >> It's a vitamin.
[01:56:17] >> It's a vitamin. And then just the mind
[01:56:19] body connection of that game, it just
[01:56:21] really [ __ ] with you because it's it's
[01:56:23] just nothing you can master and
[01:56:25] overpower,
[01:56:26] >> right?
[01:56:27] >> And it teaches you to just like be in
[01:56:29] it.
[01:56:30] >> Yeah.
[01:56:30] >> And that's a very hard skill. Like if
[01:56:34] you look at the best like I there's like
[01:56:36] a handful of people that I really look
[01:56:37] up to and I obsess like Mer Buffett, but
[01:56:40] the Berkshire meeting was this past
[01:56:42] weekend and if you look at the clips,
[01:56:43] there's this incredible thing where they
[01:56:46] transitioned, right? Mer passed away.
[01:56:48] Buffett's like now executive chairman.
[01:56:50] But this guy Greg Ael and this guy Ajet
[01:56:52] Jane. Ajet Jane does this thing where
[01:56:53] he's like, I teach the people that come
[01:56:55] to just say no. Your whole job is to
[01:56:58] just say no. You're going to get
[01:56:59] bombarded with all kinds of business
[01:57:00] pitches. Say no, no, no. And eventually
[01:57:03] somebody will come and [ __ ] try to
[01:57:04] whack you in the head with a 2x4 of
[01:57:06] money. Then you come to me and we'll do
[01:57:08] the deal. And it made such an impression
[01:57:11] because like again when I'm insecure,
[01:57:15] my reward function is attention. So I'm
[01:57:17] like a [ __ ] little busy body. I'm
[01:57:18] running around doing all this little
[01:57:20] [ __ ] you know? E. And then man,
[01:57:23] when I'm in a [ __ ] flow state and
[01:57:25] like I'm tunning it, like I'm striping
[01:57:27] the ball, you know? I'm like a few
[01:57:29] things that really matter in size and
[01:57:31] I'm like, man, this is this is right.
[01:57:35] It's all come to me because I'm like I'm
[01:57:38] like within myself and these other
[01:57:41] things are a better reflection of when
[01:57:43] I'm within myself and these other things
[01:57:45] are a mirror of when I'm totally out of
[01:57:47] kilter.
[01:57:48] >> That's just me.
[01:57:50] >> So in my life these things tend to lead.
[01:57:53] >> Um
[01:57:54] >> I think you're saying that's just you,
[01:57:55] but I think that's generally most
[01:57:57] people. I think you find these things,
[01:58:01] these vehicles for developing human
[01:58:04] potential, whether it's martial arts or
[01:58:05] golf or playing guitar or playing chess
[01:58:08] or poker.
[01:58:09] >> And then you have to have, I think, one,
[01:58:11] at least for me, one seinal relationship
[01:58:14] in your life. You have to have one
[01:58:16] person that has just undying belief in
[01:58:18] you. And I never really had that until I
[01:58:21] met my wife. And that was a very, and I
[01:58:23] didn't I pushed against it so [ __ ]
[01:58:25] hard because I was like, it just can't
[01:58:27] be true. like why does this person give
[01:58:29] a [ __ ] Do you know what I mean? Like
[01:58:31] why do they care about me more than I
[01:58:32] do?
[01:58:32] >> Well, there's also the fear because so
[01:58:34] many people get in those bad
[01:58:35] relationships.
[01:58:36] >> And I'm just like I I think there's a
[01:58:38] part of you like me where you're just
[01:58:40] like I'm not a very lovable person. Like
[01:58:42] I'm just like this is that's not who I
[01:58:44] am. And this woman is just there.
[01:58:48] So that's been like the thing like for
[01:58:50] me it's like and because she's brutal.
[01:58:52] She'll be like, "Oh yeah, that was
[01:58:53] [ __ ] horrible." You know, like
[01:58:55] yesterday I like we had this we I I I
[01:58:57] did this thing at at Milk and it was a
[01:58:59] dinner at my friend's house and uh then
[01:59:02] you know, we're both going to different
[01:59:03] airports. I'm flying here to see you and
[01:59:05] she's flying home and uh she calls me
[01:59:08] and I'm like I'm how did I do? Ah [ __ ]
[01:59:16] But but no, there's the parts that I did
[01:59:18] well and then she critiques the other
[01:59:19] parts that she didn't like. And then I
[01:59:21] say which is like it's and it's so again
[01:59:24] I'm insecure so I'm like I want the
[01:59:25] self- serving well how would because
[01:59:27] there was three of us on this panel and
[01:59:29] she's like uh and I was like you know I
[01:59:31] was the best right? She's like no Gavin
[01:59:34] was better. I'm just like it's so but
[01:59:37] it's so refreshing because it keep again
[01:59:39] it's like a
[01:59:40] >> keeps you in check
[01:59:41] >> like and it gives me a mirror.
[01:59:43] >> Mhm.
[01:59:43] >> You know like when I was coming to see
[01:59:46] you yesterday when we were flying down
[01:59:48] to LA for this thing um there's parts of
[01:59:52] me where when I'm insecure I kind of
[01:59:54] like externalize and I can be like
[01:59:57] really hyperbolic unnecessarily
[01:59:58] hyperbolic and it's counterproductive.
[02:00:01] And she said to me listen like just
[02:00:02] imagine your friends these are
[02:00:04] hardworking people. They're trying their
[02:00:05] best as well. They don't necessarily
[02:00:07] know. Some some things have massively
[02:00:08] worked out for them, but they would want
[02:00:10] to do the right thing. There's people
[02:00:12] you've worked with before that want to
[02:00:13] do the right thing. And she's like, just
[02:00:15] picture them and don't judge. You can
[02:00:16] observe.
[02:00:19] And it's crazy, but it's like I need
[02:00:20] those little things. There's like
[02:00:22] tweaks. It's like having a coach kind of
[02:00:23] like
[02:00:24] >> and that and that's very that's very
[02:00:26] helpful to me.
[02:00:26] >> Yeah. It's very important. It's hard to
[02:00:28] do that yourself.
[02:00:29] >> I can't do it.
[02:00:30] >> And it's also like
[02:00:31] >> I'm [ __ ] maxing. Like my life is like
[02:00:33] I like that flow. Mhm.
[02:00:34] >> And if if I didn't have somebody who
[02:00:36] loved me and would hold me accountable,
[02:00:38] I' just [ __ ] not think about it.
[02:00:40] >> Yeah. And the opposite of that is
[02:00:42] someone who's like an antagonistic
[02:00:44] relationship. And we know a lot of
[02:00:46] people that have those kind of very
[02:00:48] sabotagey sort of marriages and
[02:00:50] relationships. And that's crazy.
[02:00:52] >> It's brutal.
[02:00:53] >> It's brutal. And I don't think they've
[02:00:55] ever had a really good one. Otherwise,
[02:00:56] they would never tolerate that.
[02:00:59] >> I didn't know what good looked like. So
[02:01:01] you kind of just I think a lot of people
[02:01:03] go with the flow. Like I mean I was a
[02:01:06] nerdy kid from kind of a shitty [ __ ]
[02:01:09] up kind of like family structure
[02:01:13] and then I got injected into this rich
[02:01:15] high school but then I got to go back to
[02:01:18] an alcoholic father. I'm on [ __ ]
[02:01:19] welfare. Like it's like you know my my
[02:01:22] self-confidence is negative [ __ ] two
[02:01:24] units.
[02:01:25] >> Didn't have a girlfriend. You know like
[02:01:26] all the [ __ ] in high school like nothing
[02:01:28] happened for me. And so my modeling of
[02:01:31] like how to be in a relationship, what
[02:01:32] to do, it was [ __ ] zero.
[02:01:36] Um, it was zero. And so all those
[02:01:39] mistakes were mostly because I didn't
[02:01:41] understand what good looked like,
[02:01:43] >> right?
[02:01:44] >> Um, and then I stumbled into this
[02:01:45] relationship after my divorce and my
[02:01:47] ex-wife is an incredible woman. Just
[02:01:49] like not,
[02:01:50] >> you know,
[02:01:50] >> what you needed or what she needed.
[02:01:52] >> Yeah. She's we're just we were in in in
[02:01:54] a few very specific ways,
[02:01:57] >> we just weren't on the same page.
[02:01:59] And then I find this other one and it's
[02:02:03] and I think like I don't I was so
[02:02:05] skeptical. I'm like I I kind of viewed
[02:02:08] like a relationship as like this adjunct
[02:02:10] to your life. There's you you're at the
[02:02:13] center. M
[02:02:14] >> you're doing your [ __ ] and one of the
[02:02:16] appendages to your thing is you're
[02:02:19] that's what I thought and then now it's
[02:02:21] the opposite where I feel like my wife's
[02:02:24] at the center and I'm like I would
[02:02:26] always kind of like like almost like
[02:02:28] laugh at people in the in my mind I'm
[02:02:30] like it's not possible that somebody
[02:02:31] feels this way about somebody else.
[02:02:34] >> Um but it's an it's an it's a huge
[02:02:36] enabler. It's a it's a very much a gift.
[02:02:39] So that can also be a thing that people
[02:02:40] look for. You know what I mean? which is
[02:02:42] >> I think what you're saying is that
[02:02:43] there's a bunch of different things that
[02:02:46] have to sort of exist together and that
[02:02:49] it's not just completely focus on your
[02:02:51] work but that focusing on these other
[02:02:54] things enhances the work and then the
[02:02:57] work enhances all these other things as
[02:02:58] well and they all exist together
[02:03:00] >> and my best work is when I'm not
[02:03:02] thinking about the attention or the
[02:03:05] money. Those are the two most corrupting
[02:03:07] influences in my life. If I if when I
[02:03:09] look back and when I've lost when I've
[02:03:11] lost the most amount of money
[02:03:13] >> or when I've reputationally hurt myself
[02:03:15] the most,
[02:03:16] >> it's all been because of attention and
[02:03:18] money.
[02:03:19] >> Those are the only two things the root
[02:03:21] cause consistently has been that.
[02:03:23] >> That makes sense because you're thinking
[02:03:24] about a result rather than the process.
[02:03:27] >> Exactly.
[02:03:27] >> Yeah.
[02:03:28] >> Exactly.
[02:03:29] >> So, and then thinking about that result
[02:03:30] like oo I'm going to get a lot of
[02:03:31] attention from this. Oo, I'm going to
[02:03:33] get a lot of money from this. That
[02:03:34] actually robs you of the focus that you
[02:03:36] need to concentrate on the process.
[02:03:38] >> Exactly. And the the thing about the
[02:03:40] process is that so much of that when
[02:03:44] you're in a flow state you're proud of
[02:03:47] >> irrespective of the size of it because
[02:03:49] the meetings are the same. Do you know
[02:03:51] what I mean? Like
[02:03:52] >> you're in the same [ __ ] 35 minute
[02:03:54] meeting or 45 minute meeting debating a
[02:03:56] product or debating a thing.
[02:03:59] But the minute that I start to feel like
[02:04:00] embarrassed about company A versus
[02:04:02] company B or decision A versus decision
[02:04:04] B,
[02:04:05] >> now my mind is like, "Okay, hold on a
[02:04:07] second here. I'm about to run myself off
[02:04:09] the cliff."
[02:04:09] >> Yeah.
[02:04:10] >> You know, or you know, we I had this
[02:04:12] dinner last week and this is what's
[02:04:13] amazing. Like
[02:04:16] we're talking about poker. Well, I So
[02:04:18] I'm having dinner with my wife and a
[02:04:20] friend and uh
[02:04:23] she's like, "How are you doing?" Just
[02:04:25] like a very generic nice question,
[02:04:27] >> right? And I go into this long [ __ ]
[02:04:29] diet tribe of like, well, you know, the
[02:04:31] investing thing this, and then I started
[02:04:33] this other thing that. And my wife's
[02:04:34] looking at me like, what the [ __ ] are
[02:04:35] you rambling on about? And then it got
[02:04:37] But it got worse, Joe. It got worse. It
[02:04:39] got even [ __ ] worse. Then I'm like,
[02:04:41] uh, you know, but then I had this poker
[02:04:43] game. I started rambling on. It's
[02:04:45] normally on Thursdays, but then I I
[02:04:46] moved it up to Wednesdays, but then I
[02:04:48] moved it up to the city because my
[02:04:49] friend's having it. And then I name
[02:04:50] dropped who the guy was. And my wife
[02:04:53] just looks at me like, "What the [ __ ] is
[02:04:55] going on with you?
[02:04:57] So, the dinner ends. It was And then
[02:05:00] she's like, "What the [ __ ] is going on
[02:05:01] with you?" She's like, "That was
[02:05:03] insane." And I had no idea that I was
[02:05:07] doing it.
[02:05:09] And I'm like, "Okay, we need to put
[02:05:10] Humpty Dumpty back together again
[02:05:11] because I'm about to go on Rogan and I
[02:05:13] can't go off [ __ ] like a crazy wild
[02:05:14] man." Uh, but it's a it's it's an
[02:05:17] enormous gift. That's been my biggest
[02:05:19] unlock in these last like eight or nine
[02:05:21] years. Like I I feel like like I'm kind
[02:05:23] of like adding skills to my toolkit. I
[02:05:25] feel like a golfer like that's like I
[02:05:27] can shape shots a little bit now. I know
[02:05:29] how to use different clubs.
[02:05:31] >> Um and it's all like mindset
[02:05:34] >> and it's like it's very much what you
[02:05:36] it's like this processoriented approach
[02:05:38] >> and you just can't control the outcome
[02:05:41] and that's like a it's a magical
[02:05:44] feeling. It's interesting that you're
[02:05:46] saying this because like think about
[02:05:48] what most people or people that are on
[02:05:52] social media like the kind of attention
[02:05:55] that they're focusing on. Like this is
[02:05:58] why virtue signaling is so unsuccessful,
[02:06:01] right? It's so bad for it because it's
[02:06:02] fake. You're really concentrating on the
[02:06:04] process. Are you really concentrating on
[02:06:05] the result? The result is getting people
[02:06:07] to love you. Exactly. Getting people to
[02:06:08] agree with you. Getting and then
[02:06:09] worrying about the criticism. Oh my god,
[02:06:11] they hate me. Oh my god, they're mad at
[02:06:12] my my statement. Oh my god, they're this
[02:06:14] and then you're like obsessing on it all
[02:06:16] day. People that aren't even anywhere
[02:06:17] near you. It's like it's one of the
[02:06:19] absolute worst things for mental health
[02:06:21] is this addiction that people have to
[02:06:24] posting things and then reading the
[02:06:25] responses to those posts and getting
[02:06:28] wrapped up in these very weird
[02:06:30] two-dimensional interactions with human
[02:06:33] beings.
[02:06:33] >> You never read your comments. I mean,
[02:06:34] you're very famous. You're like, it
[02:06:36] doesn't [ __ ] matter to me. Well,
[02:06:38] you're going to get to a certain point
[02:06:39] in time where if you have x amount of
[02:06:42] people that follow you, you're going to
[02:06:44] have a percentage that are mad at you
[02:06:47] and those are the ones you're going to
[02:06:48] think about, right?
[02:06:49] >> And if you don't self audit, maybe
[02:06:51] that's good. Maybe it's good to say
[02:06:53] like, "You [ __ ] piece of shit." Like,
[02:06:54] "Oh, I'm sorry." You know, like what
[02:06:56] your wife saying to you like, "What the
[02:06:57] [ __ ] was that?" Like, "Ah, shit." Like,
[02:07:00] I am very self-critical. Very like
[02:07:03] horribly so. like to the point I torture
[02:07:05] myself, you know? So, I'm like, I don't
[02:07:07] need that from other people. And also,
[02:07:09] those people don't love me and they want
[02:07:11] me to fail. Like, there's a lot of
[02:07:12] people that their lives are very
[02:07:14] unsuccessful and I've been way too
[02:07:16] fortunate, right? So, it's like there's
[02:07:18] a reason to be upset at me if your life
[02:07:20] is [ __ ] because I've I've gotten I've
[02:07:22] three of the best jobs on earth. It
[02:07:24] doesn't make any sense, right? So,
[02:07:25] there's a re and also why the [ __ ] is
[02:07:27] this podcast so successful? That doesn't
[02:07:28] make any sense, right? So, it's like I
[02:07:31] get it. I understand why people, but I'm
[02:07:33] not gonna help them. I'm not gonna help
[02:07:35] them bring me down. I'm not gonna
[02:07:37] indulge in it and ruin my own mind by
[02:07:39] wallowing in their [ __ ] because the
[02:07:41] only reason why you would do that in the
[02:07:42] first place is if you're not together.
[02:07:44] No one is healthy and happy and
[02:07:46] intelligent is going to post mean things
[02:07:49] about you. So, you are reading things
[02:07:51] from people that are mentally ill,
[02:07:53] unhappy, and probably not. Maybe they're
[02:07:56] intelligent in terms of their ability to
[02:07:58] solve certain issues and problems. Maybe
[02:08:00] they're good at certain skills, but like
[02:08:02] their overall grasp of humanity and like
[02:08:05] being a good person is not good if
[02:08:08] you're [ __ ] on people, especially if
[02:08:09] you like add homonym attacks and just
[02:08:12] insults. And
[02:08:13] >> so, it's not a good thing to ingest.
[02:08:16] It's not It's like if you go down the
[02:08:17] supermarket, you see Twinkies, oh,
[02:08:18] they're right there. Don't [ __ ] eat
[02:08:20] them, okay? That's not good for you. And
[02:08:23] so it's like I don't think that at a
[02:08:25] certain point in time, especially if you
[02:08:27] become publicly known and famous, you
[02:08:29] should ever read your comments. I don't
[02:08:30] think it's good for you.
[02:08:31] >> Yeah.
[02:08:32] >> But you better be self- auditing or
[02:08:35] you'll start sniffing your own farts and
[02:08:36] think they smell great. Like don't do
[02:08:38] that either.
[02:08:39] >> Yeah.
[02:08:39] >> But you I know a lot of people that have
[02:08:43] gone crazy reading their own comments.
[02:08:45] I've met comedians that like they'll
[02:08:47] think about it all day long. It will
[02:08:49] [ __ ] with them. It will tort. Well,
[02:08:51] their neurosis are what's what creates
[02:08:53] great comedy to begin with. So, if you
[02:08:54] feed that neurosis in the wrong way,
[02:08:56] you're [ __ ]
[02:08:56] >> The wrong way, right? And then also the
[02:08:58] self-doubt creeps in because all these
[02:09:00] people telling you you suck and they're
[02:09:01] like, "Oh my god, I suck." And then you
[02:09:03] go on stage with this like, "People
[02:09:04] think I suck, they hate me." You can't
[02:09:06] do that. Like, if you
[02:09:09] have a certain amount of energy in the
[02:09:12] day, this is what I always tell
[02:09:13] comedians. I said, "Look, think of your
[02:09:16] attention and your focus as a a unit.
[02:09:18] You have a hundred units. If you spend
[02:09:21] 30 of those [ __ ] units on [ __ ]
[02:09:23] online, you're robbing 30 units from all
[02:09:26] the things you love. 30 units from your
[02:09:28] family, 30 units from your friends, 30
[02:09:30] units from your job, 30 units from golf
[02:09:33] or poker or whatever it is that you love
[02:09:35] to do. You're stealing your own time and
[02:09:38] your own focus
[02:09:39] >> for loers, right?
[02:09:41] >> Like why would you do that? And those
[02:09:43] losers are good people. They're just
[02:09:44] they most people are good people. They
[02:09:46] just a bad path. I would have been the
[02:09:48] personing. Yeah. Yeah. Look, if you gave
[02:09:51] me a [ __ ] Twitter account when I was
[02:09:52] 16, oh my god, it would have been
[02:09:55] horrendous.
[02:09:55] >> Yeah. I would have been going crazy.
[02:09:56] >> Oh my god. I would have been a terrible
[02:09:58] person. It's normal. Especially if your
[02:10:00] life sucks and you're not doing well and
[02:10:03] you're attacking famous people or you're
[02:10:04] attacking this person that's doing
[02:10:06] better than you or whatever it is.
[02:10:07] >> Like it's Do you uh have you seen the
[02:10:09] clips of the [ __ ] maxing?
[02:10:12] >> No.
[02:10:12] >> You don't know what this is?
[02:10:13] >> No.
[02:10:13] >> You don't know what this is?
[02:10:14] >> No. What's [ __ ] maxing?
[02:10:16] >> Oh, this guy is fantastic. He sits He
[02:10:19] sits on his back porch. Jamie, can
[02:10:20] Jamie, can you just show He sits He sits
[02:10:23] on his back porch smoking a cigar
[02:10:27] basically telling you everything's kind
[02:10:29] of [ __ ] Stop thinking about [ __ ]
[02:10:31] You know, if you don't like your
[02:10:33] friends, leave them. If you don't like
[02:10:34] your girlfriend, leave them. Stop
[02:10:36] overthinking. Simplify your life. You
[02:10:38] know, it's it's inc it's so simple, but
[02:10:42] I think it's incredibly
[02:10:43] >> Who is this guy?
[02:10:44] >> Elisha Long, I think, is his name. I
[02:10:46] don't know Jamie if you can find it. I
[02:10:47] think Elisha
[02:10:48] >> [ __ ] maxing is funny because I know
[02:10:49] about looks maxing. We talked about that
[02:10:52] recently on a podcast but that's
[02:10:53] recently entered into my mind into my
[02:10:56] zeitgeist. looks max.
[02:10:58] >> That's the clvicular, but I've only
[02:11:00] found out about that within the last few
[02:11:01] months of life because I I genuinely
[02:11:04] stay off social media as much as
[02:11:05] possible. And if I do read things, what
[02:11:08] I like to do, I like to focus on
[02:11:10] fascinating things. Like a lot of my
[02:11:12] time I spend looking at YouTube stuff
[02:11:14] because YouTube stuff, my algorithm is
[02:11:16] all like new black holes they've
[02:11:18] discovered, you know, new discoveries in
[02:11:21] terms of like what is the fabric of
[02:11:23] reality? Like I'm that's interesting to
[02:11:26] me. And if I just concentrate on people
[02:11:28] being mean or shitty to each other or
[02:11:30] the latest [ __ ] political drama, it's
[02:11:32] like
[02:11:34] >> what? I don't have much time. I'm busy.
[02:11:37] I like things.
[02:11:38] >> And
[02:11:39] >> are you are you on like Instagram and
[02:11:41] Tik Tok?
[02:11:41] >> I'm on Instagram. I do not have a Tik
[02:11:43] Tok. This is Luke Maxing. No, this is
[02:11:46] [ __ ] maxing. So, let me hear what he
[02:11:48] says.
[02:11:49] >> Who's this guy? What's his name?
[02:11:50] >> Elisha Long.
[02:11:51] >> Shout out to Elisha. being used as a
[02:11:54] poisoning of nostalgia,
[02:11:56] but to simply remind you of what you
[02:11:59] found it for. And as we grow up, we
[02:12:03] often give that up for security. We give
[02:12:05] that up so that we're accepted. We give
[02:12:07] that up to flex and appear like we have
[02:12:10] now figured things out, that people will
[02:12:13] accept us.
[02:12:15] The only way that you will truly be
[02:12:17] successful is if you are righteous and
[02:12:21] you live according to your nature and
[02:12:23] you play, man, and you don't let people
[02:12:25] take play away from you to to be at the
[02:12:28] circus and be ooed and aed and worried
[02:12:31] about all the [ __ ] Return to a
[02:12:33] state of play.
[02:12:35] >> Well, that's very good advice.
[02:12:38] Return to [ __ ] max. The best thing
[02:12:41] that you could do is return to a state
[02:12:42] of play. That's true. There's a lot of
[02:12:44] that, you know. There's a lot of that.
[02:12:46] Absolutely.
[02:12:47] >> Oh, I I I think that that is like a It's
[02:12:49] a
[02:12:49] >> It's a wise man for a young fella.
[02:12:51] >> Yeah.
[02:12:52] >> Okay. He's a jiu-jitsu guy. There you
[02:12:53] go. Look, he's getting his [ __ ] blue
[02:12:55] belt there. Or he's getting his purple
[02:12:56] belt. What is going on there? So, is he
[02:12:59] getting his blue belt?
[02:13:00] >> Yeah, it's his purple.
[02:13:02] >> Yeah. So, they're taking his blue belt
[02:13:03] off and putting his purple belt on.
[02:13:05] Yeah. See, that's he's learning. He's a
[02:13:06] martial artist. That's why.
[02:13:08] >> You think martial arts people are just
[02:13:10] more like spiritually connected to the
[02:13:12] truth? I don't know if it's spiritually
[02:13:13] connected to the truth. It's forced down
[02:13:15] your [ __ ] throat because you can't
[02:13:17] believe you're better than you are if
[02:13:19] you're getting mauled every day,
[02:13:22] you know? And there's only one way. This
[02:13:25] guy's on the path to becoming a
[02:13:26] jiu-jitsu black belt. Looks like a
[02:13:27] pretty big guy, too. That'll help. Um,
[02:13:29] but there's only one way to get a black
[02:13:32] belt in jiu-jitsu. You got to train
[02:13:33] jiu-jitsu all the time and get better at
[02:13:35] jiu-jitsu. You can't pretend you're
[02:13:36] better. You know, there's a lot of
[02:13:38] people that write poems and they suck
[02:13:39] and they think they're so deep.
[02:13:41] >> Yeah. this poem
[02:13:42] >> meaning like there's just a very simple
[02:13:44] objective measurement that says
[02:13:45] >> 100%. You either win or you lose. You
[02:13:48] either tap or you get tapped out. You
[02:13:51] know, you tap somebody or you get
[02:13:53] >> Can you get a black belt in some gym
[02:13:55] that's easier than a different gym or
[02:13:57] something like that or
[02:13:58] >> sort of kind of but not really. I mean,
[02:14:01] everybody's trying hard. I mean, there's
[02:14:03] definitely better gyms where they're
[02:14:04] more technical and their program is much
[02:14:07] more systematic and they're better at
[02:14:09] breaking down skills like how to develop
[02:14:11] skills, you know. Um there's definitely
[02:14:14] better gyms. Uh there's better schools,
[02:14:17] there's better places to learn, but
[02:14:18] everywhere you learn, you're going to
[02:14:20] have a bunch of people that are trying
[02:14:22] hard like and you have a bunch of people
[02:14:24] that are trying to learn these. And also
[02:14:25] today because of the internet, you could
[02:14:28] go on YouTube and there's thousands of
[02:14:32] tutorials breaking down new moves.
[02:14:34] Jiu-Jitsu is like endlessly comp.
[02:14:36] >> One of my one of my kids has ADHD and
[02:14:38] one of the things that was recommended
[02:14:40] to us was jiu-jitsu.
[02:14:41] >> Yeah. What is ADHD, man? It's not even
[02:14:42] [ __ ] real cuz I definitely have it.
[02:14:44] And I think I think it's a superpower.
[02:14:47] >> I think we all have it.
[02:14:48] >> I think I look I do not focus well on
[02:14:51] things that I think are boring. But if
[02:14:52] you give me something that that I love,
[02:14:54] I can't I'll I'll play pool for [ __ ]
[02:14:56] 12 hours in a row.
[02:14:57] >> It's crazy. But like the reason I got
[02:14:58] back into golf is my seven-year-old gets
[02:15:00] on the course and sometimes you can talk
[02:15:02] to him and he's not making, you know,
[02:15:03] he's like just like in his own world.
[02:15:05] >> Exactly.
[02:15:05] >> And then you start talking about chess
[02:15:07] or jiu-jitsu or whatever and then we get
[02:15:10] him on the golf course and this kid is
[02:15:12] just dialed in.
[02:15:13] >> Yeah. Superpower.
[02:15:14] >> And I'm like, "Holy shit."
[02:15:15] >> And they say that that's a disease.
[02:15:17] That's crazy. Because if you find a
[02:15:19] thing that that kid loves, he's going to
[02:15:21] excel at it above and beyond most
[02:15:23] humans.
[02:15:23] >> We uh he does these chess classes and
[02:15:26] like look, he's seven. So I'm like, "All
[02:15:28] right, [ __ ] Bring it. [ __ ]
[02:15:30] [ __ ] destroy you. I'm going to
[02:15:31] [ __ ] ball you." And uh we're playing
[02:15:35] last weekend and he goes, "Oh, Dad, you
[02:15:38] know you can't castle out of check." I'm
[02:15:40] like, "Shut the [ __ ] up. I know how this
[02:15:42] game works." And I go on to beat him and
[02:15:44] I and I went to my wife and I'm like,
[02:15:47] he's six weeks away from beating me. I
[02:15:48] got to go.
[02:15:51] And then I spent I spent two days I
[02:15:53] spent two [ __ ] days on YouTube and I
[02:15:56] was like, "Okay, I got to brush up on my
[02:15:58] openings and I got to I got Oh my god, I
[02:16:00] don't have time for this [ __ ]
[02:16:01] >> But I can't let this sevenyear-old beat
[02:16:03] me.
[02:16:05] >> You know what I mean? You're going to
[02:16:06] have to."
[02:16:06] >> And I'm like And I was like, "How do I
[02:16:08] how do I stall this until maybe he's 10
[02:16:10] or 11?" Then it's like, "Okay, fine. You
[02:16:11] finally beat me. Congratulations.
[02:16:13] >> You have to think of him as an extension
[02:16:15] of you and be happy when he does.
[02:16:16] >> Oh my god.
[02:16:17] >> Yeah. That's just how it is. Look, if
[02:16:19] you're a man and you have a son, I I
[02:16:21] have all daughters, but if I had a son,
[02:16:24] I would be legitimately terrified that
[02:16:26] he'd be able to tap me. Because if I had
[02:16:29] a son, one of the first things that I
[02:16:31] would do is get them. I got my kids
[02:16:32] involved in martial arts at an early
[02:16:33] age, but I didn't force them to keep
[02:16:35] doing it. They did it for a certain
[02:16:36] amount of time, and then they went on to
[02:16:37] do a bunch of other things that they
[02:16:38] enjoy better,
[02:16:39] >> which is fine. But I think it's good to
[02:16:41] learn some skills, learn how to defend
[02:16:43] yourself so you're not completely lost.
[02:16:46] Just it's I think it's good for you.
[02:16:47] It's good to learn. It's good to develop
[02:16:49] confidence. But for boys, I think it's
[02:16:51] critical, you know, especially boys with
[02:16:53] my kind of DNA. I'm like, I think it's
[02:16:55] good to get that [ __ ] out of your
[02:16:56] system. But if I had a son, there'd be a
[02:16:58] certain point in time. I'm like, it's a
[02:16:59] matter of time before this [ __ ]
[02:17:01] can kill me. You know, it's like I mean,
[02:17:04] I'm 58 years old. If I had a 20-year-old
[02:17:06] kid, like, he'd probably kill me.
[02:17:07] >> Kick your ass.
[02:17:08] >> Probably [ __ ] kill me.
[02:17:09] >> He'd kick your ass. Yeah. It's like what
[02:17:11] am I going to do? There's nothing you
[02:17:12] can do. You just have to accept it and
[02:17:13] then hope your relationship with him is
[02:17:15] strong enough that he still respects you
[02:17:16] even though he can kill you because it
[02:17:18] can't be entirely ba. Look, there's a
[02:17:21] lot of martial arts instructors that are
[02:17:23] old and they're revered and respected
[02:17:25] and nobody wants to try to hurt them,
[02:17:27] right? Because you realize if you learn
[02:17:30] enough, you get to a certain point in
[02:17:31] time, you realize like
[02:17:32] >> I'm a much better dad to my sons than I
[02:17:35] am my daughters. And I mean this in the
[02:17:36] following way. My daughters have the run
[02:17:38] of the place. Whatever they want, I'm in
[02:17:40] love with them. I don't love them. I'm
[02:17:41] in love with them. Whatever they need,
[02:17:43] what they can just
[02:17:44] >> enamored by.
[02:17:45] >> They're just like they can control me.
[02:17:47] They just kind of send me in one
[02:17:48] direction or another. I'm just like
[02:17:49] they're I'm like,
[02:17:50] >> by the way, they know that, too.
[02:17:51] >> I'm enslaved by them.
[02:17:52] >> Yes.
[02:17:53] >> You know, and I just want their
[02:17:54] attention. Any small little shred, I'm
[02:17:56] like,
[02:17:57] >> boo your son, you keep them in check.
[02:17:59] >> Whereas like my sons, I keep the I'm
[02:18:01] doing everything that I was supposed I
[02:18:02] think I'm supposed to be doing. Now, the
[02:18:04] good news is my, you know, daughters are
[02:18:06] just different. Like, they're girls.
[02:18:07] They're just, so they don't need the
[02:18:09] same kind of like tough loveish,
[02:18:11] >> right?
[02:18:12] >> You know, but then my boys reveal their
[02:18:14] characteristics in ways that really
[02:18:16] surprise me. And I'm just like, man,
[02:18:17] this is so [ __ ] awesome. Parenting
[02:18:19] has been the best. Like, when I again,
[02:18:21] like slowing down and actually being in
[02:18:23] it,
[02:18:24] >> and I'm like, [ __ ] this is amazing.
[02:18:25] >> It is pretty amazing. And watching your
[02:18:28] kids get really good at things is really
[02:18:30] fascinating. It's fascinating. I told
[02:18:31] you this story before, but like you know
[02:18:34] my son, my oldest son, this is my
[02:18:36] 17-year-old. It's just a great kid.
[02:18:40] He goes and he's like, "Okay, I'm
[02:18:41] applying for college." And I'm like,
[02:18:43] "Great. Let me take you to the Naval
[02:18:44] Academy, West Point. Let me show you
[02:18:46] these servicemies." And he sees those
[02:18:48] and he's like, "These are incredible."
[02:18:49] But then he's like, "I think I want to
[02:18:50] go to like, you know, Georgetown or
[02:18:52] Vanderbilt or whatever." And I'm like,
[02:18:54] "Hey man, that's like um just a bigger
[02:18:56] version of your high school and
[02:18:58] whatever. if that's what you want to do,
[02:19:00] you do you. And you know, um, but you
[02:19:04] know, my the I'll help you like kind of
[02:19:07] get to the starting line here, but
[02:19:09] you're on your own. And he had to get a
[02:19:11] job because I'm like, if you're going to
[02:19:12] get into these schools, you got to get a
[02:19:13] job. And so he tries to
[02:19:16] last summer, I just started [ __ ]
[02:19:18] screaming at him. And I'm like, you
[02:19:21] [ __ ] louse, you haven't done
[02:19:22] anything. And this is at like another
[02:19:24] kid's at our at our son's birthday
[02:19:25] party. I scream at him. He starts
[02:19:28] crying. I'm like, "You need to do more."
[02:19:30] Then my wife screams at him. He starts
[02:19:33] crying again. Then my ex-wife screams at
[02:19:35] him. He starts crying again.
[02:19:38] And he just goes, "I'm out of here." He
[02:19:40] walks out. Meanwhile, I start panicking
[02:19:43] and I'm like, "I got to tiger dad this
[02:19:44] situation." So, I start texting a few
[02:19:47] friends trying to figure out, "Hey, can
[02:19:48] I, you know, do you guys want to hire
[02:19:49] this kid? He's like really, you know,
[02:19:51] he's pretty smart kid. Did all this
[02:19:52] stuff in robotics, yada yada." One of
[02:19:55] them says, "I'd be willing to interview
[02:19:57] him." I call him and he's like, "Dad, I
[02:20:01] got a job." I said, 'What do you mean
[02:20:02] you got a job? Said, 'I went around
[02:20:05] downtown,
[02:20:07] went to all these places and I was in a
[02:20:08] McDonald's and um the woman was having a
[02:20:12] little bit of difficulty speaking
[02:20:13] English, so I just booked her in
[02:20:14] Spanish. I got the application. I sat
[02:20:16] down at the desk and the guy having
[02:20:17] lunch beside me said, "Hey, I heard you
[02:20:20] needed a job and uh I really like the
[02:20:23] way you talked to this woman. I'm the
[02:20:25] general manager of the car wash down the
[02:20:26] street. Come and work for me."
[02:20:29] And I said, "Well, what are you going to
[02:20:30] do?" He goes, "I'm going to go work
[02:20:32] there." And I said, "Okay, well, I got
[02:20:34] this other interview for you as well, so
[02:20:35] you should see maybe you can do both."
[02:20:37] Anyways, the end of the story is he did
[02:20:39] he did these two jobs. He worked at a
[02:20:40] robotics firm, but then he worked at a
[02:20:42] car wash. And when I tell you this
[02:20:44] story, I am so proud of this kid because
[02:20:45] of the car wash. Because that car wash
[02:20:48] thing, he was he would come home and
[02:20:49] he's like, "Man, you have no idea how
[02:20:51] people live." And I'm like, "What do you
[02:20:52] mean?" He's like, "The stuff that I find
[02:20:54] in the trunk when I have to vacuum these
[02:20:56] cars and clean out the cars." And I'm
[02:20:58] like, "Bro, that is a gift. You have
[02:21:00] given a [ __ ] gift. That is the thing
[02:21:02] that if you take with you, you'll be
[02:21:04] golden the rest of your life." Because
[02:21:06] all this other [ __ ] is all kind of
[02:21:07] manufactured. I help because I'm
[02:21:09] anxious. I'm insecure. Mhm.
[02:21:11] >> But that [ __ ] you did on your own. And
[02:21:13] that thing is what people will [ __ ]
[02:21:14] respect when push comes to shove.
[02:21:16] >> It's also jobs that suck are really good
[02:21:18] for you.
[02:21:18] >> So good. I used to work at Burger King
[02:21:20] when I was 14.
[02:21:22] >> Man, let me tell you.
[02:21:23] >> You were 14 and you had a job.
[02:21:26] >> When my dad had to stay behind like we
[02:21:30] were my dad was a diplomat in the
[02:21:32] embassy of Sri Lanka in Canada. This
[02:21:35] [ __ ] war in Sri Lanka is crazy. He
[02:21:37] writes this essay. His life is
[02:21:38] threatened. So he files for refugee
[02:21:41] status. He gets it.
[02:21:44] He gets kicked out of the embassy. So he
[02:21:47] doesn't have a job. My mom becomes a
[02:21:48] housekeeper
[02:21:50] and we're kind of toiling in this
[02:21:51] poverty cycle. So 14 you have to I had
[02:21:54] to get a job and I would take the money
[02:21:56] and you know we buy I buy the bus
[02:21:58] passes. I would buy some of the
[02:21:59] groceries. We just trying to make it all
[02:22:01] work right. And uh I got a job at the
[02:22:04] Burger King.
[02:22:05] This is another example where I was
[02:22:08] like, I'm going to go get a job. Hey,
[02:22:10] can you drive me to the interview? And
[02:22:12] my dad's like, "No,
[02:22:16] get on your [ __ ] bicycle and go." And
[02:22:18] I thought, "Bro, we need this. You need
[02:22:20] the money more than I do. Why are you
[02:22:22] making me bicycle?" But I bicycled and I
[02:22:25] got the job and I worked there. And I
[02:22:27] used to work the night shift.
[02:22:28] 14-year-old kid, man. Wow.
[02:22:30] >> From [ __ ] 8 till 2 in the morning.
[02:22:32] And I would have to clean this like 8:00
[02:22:34] p.m. to 2 in the morning.
[02:22:34] >> Then you had to go to school in the
[02:22:35] morning.
[02:22:36] >> No, then I this was always like Friday,
[02:22:38] Saturday, Sunday.
[02:22:39] >> Wow.
[02:22:39] >> Thursday, Friday. Sorry. Thursday,
[02:22:40] Friday, Saturday. And then Yeah. Some
[02:22:42] days I would have to go to school. But
[02:22:44] And why did I work until two? Because
[02:22:46] when the restaurant closes,
[02:22:48] you get whatever the food is left over,
[02:22:50] right? So like you get a couple chicken
[02:22:52] sandwiches, you get like the, you know,
[02:22:54] the the version of the McNuggets that
[02:22:56] Burger King had, a couple whoppers, and
[02:22:58] you take them home.
[02:23:02] But the amount of vomit that I had to
[02:23:04] clean up the bathroom, you can't
[02:23:07] imagine, man, the a downtown Burger King
[02:23:10] near bars, you know, after closing time,
[02:23:14] the [ __ ] you see.
[02:23:16] >> Oh, wow.
[02:23:16] >> And the [ __ ] you deal with. And all I
[02:23:19] could think of was like, I just want to
[02:23:20] get the [ __ ] out of here. But that was
[02:23:23] so valuable for me.
[02:23:24] >> Yeah,
[02:23:25] >> that was so valuable for me. Um,
[02:23:29] and then I worry that my, you know, kids
[02:23:31] don't get exposed to it, but when my son
[02:23:32] got it, maybe I'm overimposing too much
[02:23:34] about it, but it's like I'm like, man,
[02:23:36] that that car wash thing is really going
[02:23:38] to be the thing that separates you in
[02:23:40] life.
[02:23:40] >> Yeah. Doing something that sucks. It it
[02:23:42] also
[02:23:43] >> just being humble and grinding through
[02:23:44] that [ __ ] you know? Do you realize like
[02:23:47] this is sometimes people they don't pick
[02:23:49] a path and they just have a job and they
[02:23:52] don't like it and they stay with this
[02:23:54] thing they don't like forever and that's
[02:23:56] not what you want.
[02:23:58] >> No,
[02:23:58] >> it's not what you want. But the
[02:24:00] development like the learning how to do
[02:24:03] something that sucks and grinding
[02:24:04] through it
[02:24:05] >> and still doing it well.
[02:24:06] >> Yeah. You know, doing it well.
[02:24:08] >> Make a make a Whopper. Be there on top.
[02:24:09] >> I know how to [ __ ] make a Whopper.
[02:24:11] >> Yeah.
[02:24:11] >> Do you know what I mean?
[02:24:12] >> Yeah.
[02:24:13] uh make the fries, change the oil, all
[02:24:15] that [ __ ]
[02:24:16] >> And then when you apply that those
[02:24:18] lessons to something you actually love
[02:24:21] and you work hard at something you love,
[02:24:23] >> magical.
[02:24:23] >> Oh, it's incredible. It's a real gift.
[02:24:26] >> It's a real gift.
[02:24:27] >> Yeah. I mean, you know, some people they
[02:24:29] don't appreciate the process, you know,
[02:24:32] and it's hard to because like when
[02:24:34] you're young and you're going through
[02:24:36] these difficult jobs and these things
[02:24:37] that suck and you don't know how it's
[02:24:39] going to turn out, you know, and a lot
[02:24:41] of times people aren't really educated
[02:24:42] in what a process actually is and about
[02:24:45] how it does develop character and it
[02:24:47] does develop discipline and that these
[02:24:49] things are actual skills that you can
[02:24:51] apply to other things in life. You just
[02:24:54] think, "God, I'm a [ __ ] loser." I
[02:24:55] have a I have a visual for this. I
[02:24:58] always ask myself, am I in the engine
[02:24:59] room right now?
[02:25:01] >> This is my way of saying like an engine
[02:25:02] room is a little hot. It's a little
[02:25:04] uncomfortable, but it's where all the
[02:25:07] [ __ ] is happening. It's where the [ __ ]
[02:25:08] is being made.
[02:25:10] >> And so I'm like, it's a little, you
[02:25:12] know, discomforting,
[02:25:13] >> but I got to be in there. And there are
[02:25:15] days where, and there'll be weeks
[02:25:17] >> where that's all I do. I'm just in it,
[02:25:20] you know? I don't I'm not good at
[02:25:21] responding to emails sometimes or
[02:25:23] whatever because there'll just be weeks
[02:25:24] where I'm in it and it's an incredible
[02:25:27] visual for me because I'm like yeah this
[02:25:29] is like where like I'm grounded
[02:25:31] >> and I like feel myself and then when I
[02:25:33] when I look at my like my health
[02:25:37] that's when like I just feel like really
[02:25:39] good about myself like not insecure and
[02:25:43] my vitals are different like it's crazy
[02:25:45] like my [ __ ] HRV like my HRV
[02:25:49] craters
[02:25:51] when I'm like just like you know
[02:25:55] insecure
[02:25:56] >> of course
[02:25:57] >> but why is that like it's it's your it's
[02:25:59] your heart rate variability should have
[02:26:01] nothing to do with your like
[02:26:03] >> disposition and your mood
[02:26:05] >> well your mind is the idea that your
[02:26:08] mind is separate from the body is crazy
[02:26:10] >> it's crazy
[02:26:10] >> it's not and
[02:26:12] >> but is your HRV lower when you're just
[02:26:14] out of sorts
[02:26:15] >> yes probably right
[02:26:16] >> I'm sure yeah I don't really monitor it
[02:26:18] that much Yeah.
[02:26:20] >> And I'm I try not to ever get out of
[02:26:21] sorts, too. And one of the ways that I
[02:26:24] keep from getting out of sorts is daily
[02:26:26] discipline. Like it's if I if I have
[02:26:28] days where I'm sure it gets out of sorts
[02:26:30] if I have a few days in a row where I
[02:26:32] don't work out, but I I work out almost
[02:26:34] every day. And if I'm not working out,
[02:26:36] I'm still cold plunging and going to the
[02:26:38] sauna and stretching. I'm always doing
[02:26:40] something. And if I don't do something,
[02:26:42] I feel like I'm [ __ ] up. And then
[02:26:44] then I can
[02:26:45] >> So, does it matter what it is? Meaning,
[02:26:46] as long as it's a routine.
[02:26:48] >> Yeah. Well, I I do it all myself. I
[02:26:50] don't have a trainer, but I write things
[02:26:52] down. I write down what I want to
[02:26:53] accomplish. I write down what I'm going
[02:26:54] to do, and then I just do it. I like a
[02:26:57] robot force myself to do it.
[02:26:59] >> Yeah.
[02:27:00] >> And then I always feel better after it's
[02:27:01] over. And it's always the hardest part
[02:27:03] of my day.
[02:27:03] >> Yeah. And so it makes everything else so
[02:27:05] much easier because it's I [ __ ] work
[02:27:07] out hard
[02:27:08] >> and so everything else is pretty easy,
[02:27:11] >> you know, because the strain like just
[02:27:12] being in that [ __ ] cold water or just
[02:27:15] going through Tabatas on a a dye bike
[02:27:18] like this shit's hard. It's really hard.
[02:27:20] Like I could die right now hard. And so
[02:27:22] everything else is like how how hard's
[02:27:24] it going to be? Oh, it's uncomfortable.
[02:27:26] Oh boohoo, you know? Like I think it's
[02:27:28] important to go through that. I I really
[02:27:31] think it is, you know? I really think it
[02:27:33] is and that that's a the difference
[02:27:35] between,
[02:27:37] >> you know, sanity and like having a very
[02:27:39] slippery grip on your your own personal
[02:27:43] sovereignty. I think a lot of it is like
[02:27:46] you have to choose it. It has to be like
[02:27:50] elective
[02:27:52] voluntary adversity. Like you have to
[02:27:55] choose to do it.
[02:27:56] >> Yeah. I that's a really great way of
[02:27:57] saying it. Voluntary adversity. If it's
[02:27:59] forced upon you,
[02:28:00] >> you can kind of compartmentalize
[02:28:02] >> and then you get angry like [ __ ] this
[02:28:03] bitter and resentful making me do stupid
[02:28:05] [ __ ] But if you force yourself to do
[02:28:07] it, you know,
[02:28:08] >> this why these special forces guys are
[02:28:09] such [ __ ] animals.
[02:28:10] >> Of course,
[02:28:11] >> they're choosing,
[02:28:12] >> right? Exactly. And they develop that,
[02:28:15] you know, this mentality when you're
[02:28:17] around other people that are also
[02:28:18] savages. You know, you just you realize
[02:28:21] like there's other people out there in
[02:28:22] the world that are not making excuses.
[02:28:25] they are getting after it every day and
[02:28:27] they are pushing every day. And the more
[02:28:29] you can surround yourself with people
[02:28:30] like that, the more people the people
[02:28:32] that complain about nonsense and the
[02:28:34] find excuses and focus on other people
[02:28:37] and [ __ ] about things and why is she
[02:28:40] doing this? Why is this happening for
[02:28:42] him?
[02:28:44] >> Yeah,
[02:28:44] >> it's loser mentality. And if you're
[02:28:46] around more winners, you know, you
[02:28:48] absorb that. You imitate your
[02:28:49] atmosphere. Yeah, it's very important
[02:28:50] and it's very hard for people,
[02:28:52] especially young people, to find
[02:28:55] positive influences and to find positive
[02:28:58] groups. And I think it's one of the
[02:29:00] reasons why a lot of young people
[02:29:02] gravitate towards podcast because they
[02:29:03] get to hear interesting conversations
[02:29:05] with really accomplished people that are
[02:29:07] fascinating that are unlike anybody that
[02:29:09] they're around on a daily basis,
[02:29:12] >> you know. And that that's also one of
[02:29:13] the reasons why it's important to find
[02:29:15] some that's why martial arts are so good
[02:29:17] for young people because you're around
[02:29:19] other people that are doing this really
[02:29:21] difficult thing and other sports too
[02:29:23] whether it's football or wrestling
[02:29:24] whatever it is.
[02:29:25] >> I actually found like you know the last
[02:29:26] few years I go out of my way to not
[02:29:28] isolate myself. That's one thing like
[02:29:29] being around other people engaging in
[02:29:31] things.
[02:29:32] >> Yes.
[02:29:32] >> Has been really healthy for me.
[02:29:33] >> Oh for sure.
[02:29:34] >> Oh my god. And I just found like what
[02:29:36] the [ __ ] am I doing? It's like
[02:29:37] everything is in my little house by
[02:29:38] myself with everybody everything comes
[02:29:40] to me. It's so odd.
[02:29:42] >> It's odd. It's really odd. Very
[02:29:43] unhealthy.
[02:29:44] >> And it starts to [ __ ] you up in the
[02:29:45] bind.
[02:29:45] >> And then your interaction with humans is
[02:29:47] only on the internet. It's terrible. You
[02:29:49] know,
[02:29:50] >> or with people that are sickantically
[02:29:51] either being paid or need something from
[02:29:53] you.
[02:29:54] >> Yeah.
[02:29:55] >> And then I think you're in a really bad
[02:29:56] place.
[02:29:57] >> Absolutely.
[02:29:57] >> Whereas like if you're in the grind with
[02:29:59] other people, they're beating you at
[02:30:00] things. It's great.
[02:30:01] >> Yeah. Yeah, if you're in a situation
[02:30:03] where there's a bunch of sickopantically
[02:30:04] connected people to you and they're just
[02:30:06] all kissing your ass and I mean we all
[02:30:08] know people that are like the heads of
[02:30:09] companies and that are just like [ __ ]
[02:30:11] tyrants.
[02:30:12] >> I think the the the the trap about being
[02:30:14] successful because it's not everything
[02:30:16] it's wrapped up to be is exactly that.
[02:30:17] You become so isolated that you become
[02:30:20] this like very caricaturous version of
[02:30:22] yourself
[02:30:23] >> because you forget what it's like to
[02:30:25] just a basic example like wait in line,
[02:30:28] be kind to other people, be polite, like
[02:30:30] be accommodating, have some empathy,
[02:30:32] >> right?
[02:30:32] >> Where are you put in that situation to
[02:30:34] do those things,
[02:30:35] >> right? You forget that you're just a
[02:30:36] person.
[02:30:36] >> You're just a [ __ ] person.
[02:30:38] >> And if you achieve some level of success
[02:30:40] that you're trying to you're trying to
[02:30:42] achieve this level of success so you
[02:30:44] elevate past being a person, you're
[02:30:46] missing the point. like you're never
[02:30:47] going to and if you do it'll come at a
[02:30:50] price.
[02:30:50] >> I thought being successful was supposed
[02:30:52] to write all the wrongs that I felt like
[02:30:56] I missed
[02:30:58] and it turns out nobody gives a [ __ ]
[02:31:00] >> No.
[02:31:01] >> And it does none of that.
[02:31:02] >> I think it's all the process. The all of
[02:31:06] life is the process.
[02:31:07] >> I agree.
[02:31:08] >> I think as soon as you think that
[02:31:10] there's a goal like, "Oh, I'm going to
[02:31:11] retire and experience my golden years."
[02:31:13] I think it's all horseshit. And that's
[02:31:15] one of my main fears about AI. My my
[02:31:19] main one of my main fears about this
[02:31:21] idea of universal high income and
[02:31:24] everyone's going to have, you know,
[02:31:25] ultimate abundance. It's like where does
[02:31:27] anybody find purpose and meaning? And
[02:31:30] where do the where do you take whatever
[02:31:34] this thing is that the mind is
[02:31:37] constructed of these these needs that
[02:31:39] the mind has that have to be satisfied
[02:31:42] in order to achieve sanity? in order to
[02:31:45] achieve some sort of like place where
[02:31:48] you can be at peace,
[02:31:49] >> fulfillment.
[02:31:49] >> Yeah, you have to do you're going to
[02:31:51] have to do something, man. You're going
[02:31:52] to have to do something. And I mean,
[02:31:54] maybe it could just be jiu-jitsu and
[02:31:57] golf and find some stuff that you enjoy
[02:31:59] doing and take some benefit in that. But
[02:32:03] boy, that's not been the case for
[02:32:06] hundreds of years. You know, that's not
[02:32:08] how human beings have exist. I mean, but
[02:32:11] also part of me says, why do we have to
[02:32:14] work to find those things? Why can't we
[02:32:17] why why is it all that?
[02:32:20] >> Well, you got to find the thing that's
[02:32:22] not work,
[02:32:23] >> right? But but I'm getting at is like
[02:32:25] why is our identity all tied up in money
[02:32:30] and and and and
[02:32:32] just things and objects and stuff. And
[02:32:36] this is a fairly new thing in human
[02:32:38] society, right?
[02:32:40] >> Why can't it transform into
[02:32:44] m like your basic needs are all met?
[02:32:47] Like nobody ever has to worry about
[02:32:48] starving again. Nobody ever has to worry
[02:32:50] about not having a home to sleep in.
[02:32:52] Nobody ever has to worry about not
[02:32:53] having healthcare. Nobody ever has to
[02:32:55] worry about not having education. So
[02:32:56] then it becomes find a purpose with your
[02:32:59] life. And as a society, can we adjust?
[02:33:03] Can we gravitate towards a new way of
[02:33:07] existing in meaning? And it would
[02:33:08] probably be great. In one way, it'd be
[02:33:11] great because we wouldn't have to be
[02:33:14] constantly thinking, why does he have
[02:33:15] that and I don't have that and this and
[02:33:16] that. Instead, it would probably be
[02:33:19] like, what can I do to get better at the
[02:33:21] thing that I love, right?
[02:33:23] >> What you know, and
[02:33:24] >> or let me be a part of a project to do
[02:33:26] something that seems implausible,
[02:33:28] >> but I feel like I'm in the engine room
[02:33:30] every day. This is great. I'm toiling
[02:33:31] with these guys. probably not going to
[02:33:34] work. Some crazy convoluted thing that
[02:33:36] has a .01 chance of success
[02:33:40] >> that can captivate a lot of people.
[02:33:42] >> Yes. You know,
[02:33:43] >> the process.
[02:33:43] >> The process.
[02:33:44] >> Yeah.
[02:33:45] >> The process.
[02:33:45] >> The process is everything. And there's
[02:33:47] no I used to like think backward.
[02:33:49] >> There is no attention in the process,
[02:33:50] >> right?
[02:33:51] >> There's only attention in the outcome,
[02:33:53] >> right?
[02:33:54] >> Do you see what I mean?
[02:33:55] >> Absolutely.
[02:33:56] >> Which is another clue and a secret that
[02:33:58] that's actually where you should be
[02:33:59] focused.
[02:33:59] >> Well, you might get attention, but
[02:34:00] that's not what you want. What you want
[02:34:02] is the process to work out. You you want
[02:34:04] to get better at whatever it is you're
[02:34:05] doing and get that thing to a better
[02:34:07] place than it is right now currently.
[02:34:09] Right. That's what you're thinking of.
[02:34:10] You're not thinking of I am going to get
[02:34:12] all this attention. I'm going to be on
[02:34:14] the cover of a magazine.
[02:34:16] Yeah. Can't It can't be that. That's not
[02:34:19] good for anybody. But everybody thinks
[02:34:21] that's what they're going to get. Oh,
[02:34:23] I'm going to get this.
[02:34:23] >> Everybody thinks that's what they want.
[02:34:25] >> Yeah. Right.
[02:34:27] >> And the problem with that is that it's
[02:34:29] not what you want.
[02:34:30] >> No.
[02:34:31] And then now we're going to completely
[02:34:33] upend
[02:34:34] potentially all of that.
[02:34:38] >> Yeah. Well, maybe it'll come inside
[02:34:40] it'll come it'll coincide with the hive
[02:34:43] mind technology.
[02:34:44] >> This hive mind thing actually that you
[02:34:46] say I find very compelling because this
[02:34:48] idea of like how do you govern an AI?
[02:34:53] Each of us individually are not capable,
[02:34:55] but I think you, me, like 10,000, 100
[02:34:57] thousand people working together.
[02:35:01] The question is, are we smarter?
[02:35:03] And I think there's a reasonable chance
[02:35:05] that that could be true. And then the
[02:35:07] other version of the hive mind is here
[02:35:08] are all these like crazy ideas that
[02:35:10] would just make the world incredible.
[02:35:13] And a group of a thousand people go off
[02:35:15] and they kind of jointly work on that
[02:35:17] together. That I find super fascinating.
[02:35:20] Like I that could be it. Like it could
[02:35:22] be like, you know, a thousand physicists
[02:35:24] are like, "We're going to create this
[02:35:26] new interstellar form of
[02:35:27] transportation." And they just go off
[02:35:28] and they're just like they don't have to
[02:35:30] worry about
[02:35:32] existing because all of that's paid for.
[02:35:34] >> Well, it also could solve all of our
[02:35:36] problems that we have with like halves
[02:35:39] and have nots. If we're all one, how
[02:35:42] could we tolerate haveotss? How could we
[02:35:44] tolerate people living on dirt floors in
[02:35:46] third world countries with no access to
[02:35:48] clean water? We wouldn't tolerate it
[02:35:49] tolerate
[02:35:50] >> because we they would be us and we would
[02:35:52] understand that.
[02:35:52] >> Yeah.
[02:35:53] >> I mean it could be like a complete
[02:35:55] gamecher in terms of human civilization.
[02:35:58] It could really move people into a
[02:35:59] complete next direction. I mean it could
[02:36:01] eliminate crime and violence. Yeah.
[02:36:03] >> Which sounds insane. Like boy that's so
[02:36:06] utopian. Like oh why don't you suck on
[02:36:08] some crystals you [ __ ] hippie. But
[02:36:10] legitimately if look if everybody has a
[02:36:13] cell phone which essentially everybody
[02:36:14] does right right now in this time and
[02:36:16] age. If we get to a point where
[02:36:18] everybody is connected, everybody is
[02:36:21] hive mind connected, you're there's
[02:36:24] we're all you're not going to just be
[02:36:26] able to drive by a homeless encampment,
[02:36:28] >> right?
[02:36:28] >> You won't you'll feel it. You'll feel
[02:36:31] it. It won't be like, "Hey, you [ __ ]
[02:36:32] losers. Hit the gas." It's going to be
[02:36:35] like, "We need to solve this. We need to
[02:36:37] get these people counseling, mental
[02:36:39] health crisis, get them off the drugs,
[02:36:41] whatever it is that's wrong with them."
[02:36:44] >> I mean, that's an incredible idea.
[02:36:46] >> Yeah. You know, like when an airplane
[02:36:48] kind of like goes like this and your
[02:36:49] stomach goes and you just feel it.
[02:36:51] >> Could you imagine like you drive by a
[02:36:53] homeless encampment and that's what you
[02:36:54] feel? Like you feel like
[02:36:56] >> something's wrong.
[02:36:56] >> And we'll all feel it collectively. If
[02:36:59] we're all connected and we all feel
[02:37:01] things connectively, we will actively
[02:37:03] work together to solve these problems.
[02:37:05] And if we're dealing with a if if we
[02:37:07] really get to a point of abundance, like
[02:37:09] true abundance, where resources are not
[02:37:12] an issue and no one's starving, we could
[02:37:15] really fix all the problems that like
[02:37:18] >> none of them are insurmountable. None of
[02:37:20] them are breathing underwater, right?
[02:37:22] None of them are flying to the sun. None
[02:37:24] of them, right? So all of them are
[02:37:26] things that could be if we took all the
[02:37:29] world's resources, socialism doesn't
[02:37:31] work, right? Why does it not work?
[02:37:33] because it rewards lazy people and it
[02:37:34] punishes ambitious people. It's not
[02:37:36] doesn't doesn't work with human nature,
[02:37:38] but it would work if you have [ __ ]
[02:37:40] hive mind. If we all we all understand
[02:37:43] what it means to put in effort. We all
[02:37:45] understood what what each other are
[02:37:46] feeling and thinking,
[02:37:47] >> right?
[02:37:48] >> And we all compiled resources and fixed
[02:37:51] all of our social problems. Like
[02:37:53] literally stop all wars, stop all crime,
[02:37:57] stop all violence, stop all poverty.
[02:38:00] Done. And then what do we do? We work
[02:38:03] together to solve whatever the [ __ ] else
[02:38:04] is wrong with you society.
[02:38:06] >> Well, it's more like what is left over
[02:38:08] that we haven't figured out.
[02:38:10] >> Think about what the world was like
[02:38:12] before the internet. It's almost
[02:38:13] impossible to imagine, but we both grew
[02:38:15] up without it.
[02:38:16] >> Yeah.
[02:38:17] >> And Yeah. And so we're entering into
[02:38:19] this new world. Think about what world
[02:38:22] was like without the hive mind, but yet
[02:38:24] we all grew up without it. Like that
[02:38:26] might be the next thing. The thing that
[02:38:28] I remember the most about that era is I
[02:38:32] had a positive sum view of everybody
[02:38:35] >> really.
[02:38:36] >> Meaning there weren't like the the bad
[02:38:39] actors were pretty bad but yeah
[02:38:41] generally like I looked up to most
[02:38:44] business people like the people that I
[02:38:45] now I feel like have been a little bit
[02:38:47] unmasked then to me were pristine.
[02:38:49] >> Oh that's interesting.
[02:38:50] >> Like the Bill Gateses of the world, you
[02:38:51] know. I was like man I really aspire to
[02:38:53] be Bill Gates when I was like 13 or 14.
[02:38:56] It just seemed like
[02:38:57] >> now you're like, why is he buying all
[02:38:58] the farmland? This [ __ ] weirdo.
[02:39:00] >> I mean, it's a [ __ ] so funny. He uh
[02:39:03] he bought this like 45,000 acres in
[02:39:07] 4,500 acres. I can't get the order of
[02:39:09] magnet right uh in Phoenix to build his
[02:39:11] own digital city.
[02:39:13] >> Yeah.
[02:39:14] >> Okay.
[02:39:14] >> It's like weird. So, I bought the 1700
[02:39:16] acres beside him.
[02:39:20] >> That's hilarious.
[02:39:21] >> [ __ ] you.
[02:39:22] >> It's a very odd thing. It's a very odd
[02:39:25] thing when people get exposed and you
[02:39:27] just go like what the [ __ ] is that guy
[02:39:29] really all about
[02:39:30] >> and but also like how isolated is he?
[02:39:33] >> Oh, he's been he's been isolated for 50
[02:39:35] years,
[02:39:36] >> right? Like who are his friends and how
[02:39:38] how many people does he have?
[02:39:39] >> Must be very hard to be him actually. I
[02:39:41] I mean
[02:39:41] >> especially now that he's divorced,
[02:39:42] right? So now he's got no one going but
[02:39:45] that speech [ __ ] sucked.
[02:39:46] >> Yeah, he's I mean he has a long-term
[02:39:48] partner. Um she seems like a lovely
[02:39:51] woman. Um, but yeah, it's just got to be
[02:39:54] super lonely.
[02:39:54] >> It's got to be.
[02:39:56] >> It's not I to me it's not worth that
[02:39:58] level of I don't even know what is it.
[02:40:01] It's like material success at least
[02:40:03] measured in the outside world. I don't
[02:40:04] know what it is, but it's not
[02:40:06] it's a lot, man. This is like I like I
[02:40:08] don't know how Elon does it. Like it's a
[02:40:10] lot. It's super isolating.
[02:40:11] >> Yeah.
[02:40:12] >> It's it's just he's very by himself.
[02:40:16] >> Mhm.
[02:40:17] >> And he's going to be even more isolated
[02:40:19] in a matter of a few months.
[02:40:20] >> Yeah. And that's unfortunate because you
[02:40:23] have very empathetic, very kind of like
[02:40:25] sensitive people like that I think need
[02:40:26] other people.
[02:40:28] >> Well, he's got people around him, but
[02:40:30] he's got very few people around him that
[02:40:33] can kick reality at him.
[02:40:35] >> Yeah.
[02:40:35] >> You know, that that is a bit of a
[02:40:37] problem, but he still seems to be having
[02:40:40] fun. Every time I'm around him, we have
[02:40:41] a bunch of laughs. Like, he's fun to
[02:40:43] hang out.
[02:40:44] >> He's got an incredible sense of humor.
[02:40:45] We um Jamie and I went down uh to one of
[02:40:49] the rocket launches at SpaceX. Yeah, we
[02:40:51] went down there crazy
[02:40:52] >> and we watched from the ground while I
[02:40:56] took off, which is incredible cuz it's
[02:40:57] like how far was it, Jamie? It was like
[02:40:59] two miles away from us.
[02:41:00] >> A mile mile and a half.
[02:41:01] >> So like it's a mile and a half. You feel
[02:41:03] it in your chest. Have you been when a
[02:41:05] when a rocket launches? You been there,
[02:41:06] dude? It's bananas. The [ __ ] thing
[02:41:08] like first of all, it doesn't look that
[02:41:09] far. It looks like it's like
[02:41:12] >> maybe quarter mile. it. I don't I'm just
[02:41:14] not good at judging.
[02:41:15] >> This is a starship.
[02:41:16] >> Oh yeah. So you feel it.
[02:41:20] You like his kids started crying like we
[02:41:22] want to go inside. Like it's disturbing
[02:41:24] like the amount of energy that's coming
[02:41:27] out of these [ __ ] rocket boosters.
[02:41:29] And then I hung out with him in the
[02:41:31] command center while the rocket was
[02:41:33] flying through space and we're watching
[02:41:34] it on all these monitors and then lands
[02:41:37] in the water in Australia. He's cracking
[02:41:39] jokes the whole time because the thing
[02:41:41] is like losing pressure because it's
[02:41:43] they're stress testing all the stuff
[02:41:45] which is really funny when really dumb
[02:41:47] people, oh he's a [ __ ] dumbass, his
[02:41:48] rockets keep blowing up. Like like they
[02:41:51] just don't understand like the only way
[02:41:53] you find out what the capability of this
[02:41:55] technology is is you have to like let it
[02:41:58] blow up and then you go, "Okay, it needs
[02:41:59] to be thicker. It needs to be this and
[02:42:01] that and we need to add these things and
[02:42:02] there's sensors everywhere." And so he's
[02:42:04] cracking jokes the entire time while
[02:42:06] this thing is like losing pressure. And
[02:42:07] it eventually wound up landing and it
[02:42:09] was fine, but it did have a hole in it.
[02:42:12] But it was just like he's laughing like
[02:42:14] he's having a good old time. He's not
[02:42:15] freaked out. No,
[02:42:16] >> you know, he he's uniquely built to
[02:42:19] handle it.
[02:42:19] >> I uh when there was a rocket launch in
[02:42:22] Vraenberg in California and I chartered
[02:42:25] a Pilates and I because you can get like
[02:42:28] a little like propeller plane.
[02:42:30] >> Oh, okay. And I went around and around
[02:42:32] and I have this video of it kind of like
[02:42:34] coming up and through cuz like
[02:42:36] >> how close were you?
[02:42:40] >> 100 miles.
[02:42:41] >> Oh wow.
[02:42:42] >> But you but it's like right there.
[02:42:43] >> Uhhuh.
[02:42:44] >> You know cuz the distance and it's
[02:42:46] coming up and I'm kind of going around.
[02:42:48] It was the craziest thing. It was cool.
[02:42:50] It was super cool.
[02:42:51] >> That [ __ ] is super cool.
[02:42:53] >> It's very cool. It's very cool. I mean
[02:42:55] just Starbase is bananas. Just when you
[02:42:58] go down there and they have their own
[02:42:59] town, the whole thing is straight.
[02:43:00] There's [ __ ] cyber trucks everywhere.
[02:43:02] I'm like, how do you find your car?
[02:43:03] Like,
[02:43:04] >> is it is it an incorporated town? It
[02:43:06] started off as unincorporated, but it
[02:43:08] own thing now.
[02:43:09] >> I believe it's its own town. And
[02:43:11] >> is there a mayor?
[02:43:12] >> That's a good question. I think there
[02:43:13] is. I think we talked about this. I
[02:43:16] don't remember though. But the actual
[02:43:19] factory itself is nuts cuz I Jamie and I
[02:43:23] were both like, "This is way bigger than
[02:43:25] I thought it was going to be." And the
[02:43:26] rockets are way bigger than you thought.
[02:43:27] And like the garage doors are [ __ ]
[02:43:29] bananas.
[02:43:30] >> They got a city government website
[02:43:33] commission mayor.
[02:43:37] >> That's crazy.
[02:43:39] >> Bobby Bobby Peted. Bobby Peted is the
[02:43:41] mayor.
[02:43:42] >> They have their own little Bobby. That's
[02:43:43] awesome.
[02:43:44] >> Irish pub and it's like it's really
[02:43:46] cool. They have really good food. you
[02:43:47] know, when he uh when he opened the
[02:43:48] first uh Gigafactory, which was in
[02:43:50] Nevada, we had a party and uh like it
[02:43:54] was like a small opening thing and so we
[02:43:55] all drove in there and I have a video of
[02:43:58] me in a just like a pickup truck driving
[02:44:00] into the thing. I started the video and
[02:44:04] I think it was 43 seconds until it
[02:44:06] ended. And this is like, you know, a
[02:44:08] decade ago and I thought to myself, this
[02:44:10] is implausible. Like I've never even
[02:44:12] contemplated things that could be built
[02:44:14] this big. I didn't think it was allowed.
[02:44:16] I don't even know how something like
[02:44:17] this works.
[02:44:19] >> And I was like, how does how do you
[02:44:21] envision this whole thing works? Like
[02:44:23] simple.
[02:44:24] >> Raw materials in the front, cars out the
[02:44:27] back.
[02:44:29] I'm like, that's it. It sounds so
[02:44:32] simple.
[02:44:33] >> Well, he thinks big.
[02:44:35] >> He thinks big. And thank God he's
[02:44:36] around. I mean, if he wasn't around, if
[02:44:38] he hadn't purchased Twitter, I think our
[02:44:41] entire civilization would look very
[02:44:42] different.
[02:44:43] >> Very different.
[02:44:44] >> It would. I mean, that sounds like a
[02:44:45] very grandiose thing to say.
[02:44:46] >> Sounds hyperbolic, but you're right.
[02:44:48] >> I think it's true because I don't I
[02:44:50] think free speech is a core component of
[02:44:52] our civilization, and I don't really
[02:44:55] think we had it.
[02:44:56] >> I think it was curated, and it was very
[02:44:58] tightly controlled by the actual federal
[02:45:00] government, which is spooky.
[02:45:01] >> No, no. It decided what we should be
[02:45:05] paying attention to. Yes.
[02:45:06] >> Just just put it very simply without
[02:45:08] kind of like
[02:45:09] >> And that's not right.
[02:45:10] >> Right. Because when they're telling you
[02:45:13] to pay attention to this and the actual
[02:45:16] issue is this and you cannot, then you
[02:45:19] can't fix what's actually broken,
[02:45:21] >> right?
[02:45:21] >> And you start to we start to basically
[02:45:23] be like we're we're part of just a a
[02:45:26] useful idiot for these people.
[02:45:27] >> Yes.
[02:45:28] >> And that's not right.
[02:45:29] >> It's not right.
[02:45:31] >> Listen, man. This was a lot of fun. It's
[02:45:32] always great to talk to you. Thank you
[02:45:33] very much for doing this. It was very
[02:45:35] cool. Um let's do it again sometime. All
[02:45:38] right. Thank you. All right. Bye,
[02:45:40] everybody.