WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.320 We have an appendix that can burst. You 00:00:02.680 --> 00:00:05.560 have a pinky toe. When was the last time 00:00:04.320 --> 00:00:07.919 you made good use of that? 00:00:05.559 --> 00:00:09.599 you'd be surprised. 00:00:07.919 --> 00:00:10.080 Natural selection is not completely 00:00:09.599 --> 00:00:12.279 random. 00:00:10.080 --> 00:00:14.480 And all these stages, one by one, they 00:00:12.279 --> 00:00:15.359 step by step, they incrementally 00:00:14.480 --> 00:00:17.280 improve. 00:00:15.359 --> 00:00:19.719 And every improvement is the new 00:00:17.280 --> 00:00:20.560 starting place for the variations at 00:00:19.719 --> 00:00:22.199 that generation. 00:00:20.559 --> 00:00:23.640 And they come about not through any 00:00:22.199 --> 00:00:25.359 design process, not through any 00:00:23.640 --> 00:00:28.679 deliberate design. Natural selection is 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:28.679 the blind watchmaker. 00:00:30.440 --> 00:00:36.160 This is StarTalk. Neil deGrasse Tyson 00:00:33.640 --> 00:00:37.640 here, your personal astrophysicist. And 00:00:36.159 --> 00:00:40.359 today, 00:00:37.640 --> 00:00:41.480 I'm in conversation 00:00:40.359 --> 00:00:45.159 with 00:00:41.479 --> 00:00:45.159 the one, the only 00:00:45.359 --> 00:00:48.320 Richard Dawkins. Richard, welcome back 00:00:47.560 --> 00:00:48.960 to my office. 00:00:48.320 --> 00:00:50.240 Thank you very much. 00:00:48.960 --> 00:00:50.800 This is like your fourth time here or 00:00:50.240 --> 00:00:51.880 something. I've lost count. 00:00:50.799 --> 00:00:52.559 think it's something like that. It's 00:00:51.880 --> 00:00:55.000 always 00:00:52.560 --> 00:00:57.120 always a pleasure, Neil. 00:00:55.000 --> 00:00:59.679 Oh, welcome. I mean, we we we we have a 00:00:57.119 --> 00:01:02.759 lot of catching up to do, I think. Um 00:00:59.679 --> 00:01:05.280 so, recently, or at least this year, we 00:01:02.759 --> 00:01:07.280 lost Daniel Dennett, philosopher Daniel 00:01:05.280 --> 00:01:08.799 Dennett. I recently learned I didn't 00:01:07.280 --> 00:01:09.719 read all of his books, I read some of 00:01:08.799 --> 00:01:13.679 them. 00:01:09.719 --> 00:01:16.120 Uh he declared that Darwin's evolution 00:01:13.680 --> 00:01:19.760 by natural selection was the greatest 00:01:16.120 --> 00:01:20.920 idea anybody ever had. He's coming to it 00:01:19.760 --> 00:01:23.400 not as a biologist, but as a 00:01:20.920 --> 00:01:24.600 philosopher. So, how do you reflect on 00:01:23.400 --> 00:01:25.920 that declaration? 00:01:24.599 --> 00:01:29.119 He said that at the beginning of his 00:01:25.920 --> 00:01:32.879 book, uh Darwin's Dangerous Idea. 00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:34.760 And his point was that uh before Darwin 00:01:32.879 --> 00:01:37.399 came along, it seemed obvious to 00:01:34.760 --> 00:01:39.800 everyone that big, complicated things 00:01:37.400 --> 00:01:41.640 like humans and oak trees and things had 00:01:39.799 --> 00:01:44.359 to have a 00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:46.599 an an explanation in terms of design. 00:01:44.359 --> 00:01:48.560 And it was a huge 00:01:46.599 --> 00:01:51.439 stroke of insight for Darwin to see that 00:01:48.560 --> 00:01:54.400 it didn't that the laws of physics alone 00:01:51.439 --> 00:01:57.039 could produce this prodigious amount of 00:01:54.400 --> 00:02:00.240 complexity filtered through this odd 00:01:57.040 --> 00:02:01.840 process of natural selection. To me, 00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:03.319 it's always been strange that it took so 00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:06.280 long, that it took until the middle of 00:02:03.319 --> 00:02:08.118 the 19th century for Darwin and Wallace 00:02:06.280 --> 00:02:10.159 and even a maybe one or two other 00:02:08.118 --> 00:02:12.599 people. This is thousands of years of 00:02:10.159 --> 00:02:13.079 thought. But brilliant people have come 00:02:12.599 --> 00:02:14.599 before. 00:02:13.080 --> 00:02:16.800 Aristotle could have could have had it 00:02:14.599 --> 00:02:18.639 and didn't. I mean, when you think how 00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:20.000 much cleverer you had to be to do what 00:02:18.639 --> 00:02:20.799 Newton did 00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:25.560 uh 00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:29.600 or or Leibniz. Um inventing calculus, um 00:02:25.560 --> 00:02:30.039 working out about the laws of how how 00:02:29.599 --> 00:02:31.479 how gravity 00:02:30.039 --> 00:02:33.199 have a I have a Newton finger puppet 00:02:31.479 --> 00:02:35.919 here. 00:02:33.199 --> 00:02:37.719 Um you'd think that somebody would have 00:02:35.919 --> 00:02:40.119 tr- tumbled to evolution by natural 00:02:37.719 --> 00:02:42.000 selection before the middle of the 19th 00:02:40.120 --> 00:02:43.680 century, yet they didn't. 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:45.759 And so, that's an astonishing thing, and 00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:48.159 it needs an explanation. Did Daniel 00:02:45.759 --> 00:02:50.239 Dennett explain why it took that long? 00:02:48.159 --> 00:02:50.719 Or and if he didn't, what would be your 00:02:50.240 --> 00:02:52.920 explanation? 00:02:50.719 --> 00:02:55.120 don't remember whether he did. Um well, 00:02:52.919 --> 00:02:56.559 first of all, Ernst Mayr, the great I 00:02:55.120 --> 00:02:57.960 mean, he was here, I think, in Here at 00:02:56.560 --> 00:03:00.199 the American Museum of Natural History. 00:02:57.960 --> 00:03:01.800 Yeah. Uh he thought it was because of 00:03:00.199 --> 00:03:04.319 essentialism. He thought that that 00:03:01.800 --> 00:03:06.000 because of Aristotle and Plato, who 00:03:04.319 --> 00:03:07.759 thought that 00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:09.800 just cuz they thought like geometers. I 00:03:07.759 --> 00:03:11.719 mean, a a a right angle triangle is a 00:03:09.800 --> 00:03:12.680 kind of perfect form sort of hanging out 00:03:11.719 --> 00:03:14.639 there. 00:03:12.680 --> 00:03:17.080 And they thought that the perfect 00:03:14.639 --> 00:03:18.639 rabbit, the perfect rhinoceros was 00:03:17.080 --> 00:03:20.800 hanging out there just just like a right 00:03:18.639 --> 00:03:22.359 angle triangle. So, you couldn't imagine 00:03:20.800 --> 00:03:23.880 how a rabbit could turn into anything 00:03:22.360 --> 00:03:25.080 different. That that was his 00:03:23.879 --> 00:03:27.319 explanation. That wouldn't be mine. I 00:03:25.080 --> 00:03:28.640 mean, I I I think I think it's just that 00:03:27.319 --> 00:03:30.759 That's an interesting one, though, 00:03:28.639 --> 00:03:33.679 because it speaks to the bias that we 00:03:30.759 --> 00:03:36.439 have observing nature. I mean, even in 00:03:33.680 --> 00:03:37.840 my field, so my people, including 00:03:36.439 --> 00:03:40.319 Copernicus, 00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:41.400 could not shake the idea of orbits that 00:03:40.319 --> 00:03:42.799 were per- 00:03:41.400 --> 00:03:45.840 perfect circles. They couldn't shake 00:03:42.800 --> 00:03:48.120 that. Why would God design a universe 00:03:45.840 --> 00:03:50.439 with a shape that wasn't geometrically 00:03:48.120 --> 00:03:52.240 perfect? So, even Copernicus, putting 00:03:50.439 --> 00:03:56.439 the sun back in the middle of the known 00:03:52.240 --> 00:03:58.320 universe, had circular orbits. And since 00:03:56.439 --> 00:04:01.159 the orbits are not circles, they 00:03:58.319 --> 00:04:04.280 actually differed from predictions on 00:04:01.159 --> 00:04:06.759 the night sky. So, 00:04:04.280 --> 00:04:08.439 that was a problem at the time. It's 00:04:06.759 --> 00:04:10.560 like, Copernicus, this might work, but 00:04:08.439 --> 00:04:14.079 it still doesn't fit. The epicycles are 00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:15.520 doing much better. And so so, it wasn't 00:04:14.080 --> 00:04:18.680 instantly 00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:20.040 taken up. It's including the resistance, 00:04:18.680 --> 00:04:21.720 the church resistance, of course, cuz 00:04:20.040 --> 00:04:24.240 course, yes. Earth wasn't in the middle 00:04:21.720 --> 00:04:27.960 anymore. Our counterpart to what I think 00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:29.560 you're describing is the urge to try to 00:04:27.959 --> 00:04:31.439 presume nature was perfect and then 00:04:29.560 --> 00:04:34.079 account for it with everything we know 00:04:31.439 --> 00:04:36.240 that is. Going back to uh 00:04:34.079 --> 00:04:38.039 why it took so long and the idea of the 00:04:36.240 --> 00:04:41.000 perfect rabbit, the perfect rhinoceros, 00:04:38.040 --> 00:04:42.160 the perfect horse. Um in a way, that's a 00:04:41.000 --> 00:04:43.160 bit silly, because if you were to look 00:04:42.160 --> 00:04:45.320 at them in 00:04:43.160 --> 00:04:46.640 a population of rabbits is is pretty 00:04:45.319 --> 00:04:48.399 variable. 00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:51.120 And um 00:04:48.399 --> 00:04:54.199 anyway, that that was uh Ernst Mayr's 00:04:51.120 --> 00:04:57.920 explanation for why it took so long. Um 00:04:54.199 --> 00:05:00.680 Darwin did it by going via 00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:02.319 artificial selection. Um everybody knew, 00:05:00.680 --> 00:05:04.920 farmers knew, horticulturalists knew, 00:05:02.319 --> 00:05:07.439 gardeners knew that you could change a 00:05:04.920 --> 00:05:09.840 rose, you could change a cabbage uh by 00:05:07.439 --> 00:05:11.160 just breeding. And really, Darwin's 00:05:09.839 --> 00:05:13.519 insight was say, "You don't actually 00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:15.920 need a breeder. You don't need need a 00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:18.240 human to do the breeding. Nature does it 00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:19.680 for you. Survival does it for you." It's 00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:21.199 not that difficult. I mean, it doesn't 00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:23.160 require any sort of higher mathematics 00:05:21.199 --> 00:05:25.120 or anything. And yet, nobody got it 00:05:23.160 --> 00:05:28.040 until Darwin and Wallace. And this is 00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:31.560 why I'm intrigued that Daniel Dennett, a 00:05:28.040 --> 00:05:33.040 philosopher, who in principle, any 00:05:31.560 --> 00:05:35.920 philosopher could have come up with 00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:38.680 this, because unlike relativity and 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:39.720 unlike quantum physics, which are realms 00:05:38.680 --> 00:05:41.920 of 00:05:39.720 --> 00:05:43.560 behavior of the universe 00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:46.680 large and small that you can't just 00:05:43.560 --> 00:05:47.959 deduce from your armchair. 00:05:46.680 --> 00:05:49.639 But 00:05:47.959 --> 00:05:51.399 evolution by natural selection could 00:05:49.639 --> 00:05:51.399 have been deduced in an armchair. It 00:05:51.399 --> 00:05:53.839 just wasn't. 00:05:51.399 --> 00:05:56.439 it could. It It's It's surprising that 00:05:53.839 --> 00:05:58.079 it didn't. Um it's interesting that both 00:05:56.439 --> 00:05:59.480 Darwin and Wallace were traveling 00:05:58.079 --> 00:06:02.199 naturalists, and they both were 00:05:59.480 --> 00:06:04.240 collectors uh in South America. Both 00:06:02.199 --> 00:06:05.759 were in South America. Wallace lost his 00:06:04.240 --> 00:06:07.199 entire South American collection in a 00:06:05.759 --> 00:06:09.319 fire. Ooh. 00:06:07.199 --> 00:06:11.079 Um and then he went to the Far East. But 00:06:09.319 --> 00:06:13.439 but they were both collectors of natural 00:06:11.079 --> 00:06:15.680 history specimens. 00:06:13.439 --> 00:06:18.240 And um the other person who might have 00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:20.160 thought of it is Patrick Matthew, who 00:06:18.240 --> 00:06:21.360 who was a gardener and an orchard 00:06:20.160 --> 00:06:24.200 keeper. 00:06:21.360 --> 00:06:24.560 Um but philosophers know they didn't do 00:06:24.199 --> 00:06:25.800 it. 00:06:24.560 --> 00:06:28.839 They didn't it, and they could have. 00:06:25.800 --> 00:06:31.400 They could have, yes. So, you've 00:06:28.839 --> 00:06:32.879 written and I have a list here of like 00:06:31.399 --> 00:06:35.479 all your books. 00:06:32.879 --> 00:06:37.680 You've been out of control over 00:06:35.480 --> 00:06:39.520 Not as much as some people. 00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:39.920 Was The Selfish Gene your first book? 00:06:39.519 --> 00:06:41.199 Yes. 00:06:39.920 --> 00:06:44.920 Back in 1976. 00:06:41.199 --> 00:06:47.800 Yes. Um I was that was the year I 00:06:44.920 --> 00:06:47.800 graduated high school. 00:06:49.199 --> 00:06:51.920 No, I remember cuz it was like the 00:06:50.199 --> 00:06:54.719 bicentennial year. Everybody made a big 00:06:51.920 --> 00:06:56.280 deal of this. It was my first 00:06:54.720 --> 00:06:59.480 presidential election that I could vote 00:06:56.279 --> 00:07:03.599 in. And I voted for Jimmy Carter. And I 00:06:59.480 --> 00:07:05.640 got to tell him this so clichéd line, 00:07:03.600 --> 00:07:07.680 but I when I met him, I said, "You were 00:07:05.639 --> 00:07:10.439 my first president that I voted for." 00:07:07.680 --> 00:07:12.120 And it was 1 month after my birthday, I 00:07:10.439 --> 00:07:14.839 got to vote for him. 00:07:12.120 --> 00:07:17.879 So, I thought I'd have short exercise 00:07:14.839 --> 00:07:19.679 here. I'm going to mention your books. 00:07:17.879 --> 00:07:22.040 Could you just tell me 00:07:19.680 --> 00:07:23.439 what your favorite bit of that book was 00:07:22.040 --> 00:07:25.720 that you were communicating with the 00:07:23.439 --> 00:07:28.160 reader, if I may. So, start off The 00:07:25.720 --> 00:07:30.200 Selfish Gene. Natural selection chooses 00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:31.800 between genes. Genes are the only thing 00:07:30.199 --> 00:07:33.319 the information contained in genes. 00:07:31.800 --> 00:07:35.480 Digital information is the only thing 00:07:33.319 --> 00:07:38.240 that goes from generation to generation. 00:07:35.480 --> 00:07:41.120 That which survives is information, 00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:43.879 digital information. Some genes survive 00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:45.560 better than others. We, the bodies, we, 00:07:43.879 --> 00:07:47.920 the animals, we, the plants, are just 00:07:45.560 --> 00:07:50.120 the machines that are there to preserve 00:07:47.920 --> 00:07:52.120 the genes that ride in the that ride 00:07:50.120 --> 00:07:55.399 inside us. 00:07:52.120 --> 00:07:55.399 Whoa. Okay, so 00:07:55.439 --> 00:08:00.160 that reminds me of how I describe your 00:07:58.160 --> 00:08:02.120 gut bacteria. I I say 00:08:00.160 --> 00:08:03.880 Yes. People want to think they're like 00:08:02.120 --> 00:08:06.519 top of the world, and I say, "All you 00:08:03.879 --> 00:08:09.079 are to those bacteria is a darkened 00:08:06.519 --> 00:08:10.279 vessel of anaerobic fecal matter." 00:08:09.079 --> 00:08:11.759 That's right. 00:08:10.279 --> 00:08:13.399 And and it's pretty much the same with 00:08:11.759 --> 00:08:15.199 your with your genes. I mean, it's not 00:08:13.399 --> 00:08:17.399 it's not fecal matter, it's testicular 00:08:15.199 --> 00:08:19.240 matter or ovarian matter, but 00:08:17.399 --> 00:08:20.519 Yes. Okay, so they're the ones and 00:08:19.240 --> 00:08:21.079 they're the ones carrying themselves 00:08:20.519 --> 00:08:23.240 forward. 00:08:21.079 --> 00:08:25.240 Yes. So, if it's just information, can 00:08:23.240 --> 00:08:27.560 you imagine a day where the biology is 00:08:25.240 --> 00:08:30.280 no longer necessary and you just have 00:08:27.560 --> 00:08:31.439 the digital information stored or or 00:08:30.279 --> 00:08:33.199 duplicated in some way? 00:08:31.439 --> 00:08:34.799 Yes, certainly. Uh you could have I 00:08:33.200 --> 00:08:37.158 mean, already, you could preserve your 00:08:34.799 --> 00:08:40.478 entire genome. Um I mean, I've got my 00:08:37.158 --> 00:08:40.759 entire genome on on one disk. Uh and I I 00:08:40.479 --> 00:08:42.599 once 00:08:40.759 --> 00:08:45.120 you have a backup? 00:08:42.599 --> 00:08:47.120 Just checking. Um Is it on the cloud? Is 00:08:45.120 --> 00:08:49.080 it The The idea was I don't have a 00:08:47.120 --> 00:08:50.879 backup. The idea was it was a television 00:08:49.080 --> 00:08:52.680 program, and the conceit of the program 00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:54.720 was it was going to be posted into the 00:08:52.679 --> 00:08:56.639 family vault The Dawkins family vault in 00:08:54.720 --> 00:08:58.320 the church at Chipping Norton. 00:08:56.639 --> 00:08:58.879 Oh my gosh. To be dug up in a thousand 00:08:58.320 --> 00:09:00.680 years. 00:08:58.879 --> 00:09:01.399 Uh-huh. And they were and Like a like a 00:09:00.679 --> 00:09:03.799 time capsule. 00:09:01.399 --> 00:09:05.679 Yes, yes, exactly. And the idea was that 00:09:03.799 --> 00:09:07.439 in a thousand years, they dig it up and 00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:08.679 make a duplicate of me. And of course, 00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:10.040 then we talk about why it wouldn't 00:09:08.679 --> 00:09:12.319 actually be me, because it would just be 00:09:10.039 --> 00:09:14.719 an identical twin of me. Um but that 00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:15.960 that was the idea. Was Was it you? Yes, 00:09:14.720 --> 00:09:18.680 it must have been you, cuz who else 00:09:15.960 --> 00:09:21.000 would do this? Posted on social media. 00:09:18.679 --> 00:09:22.879 It was No, if you had a a book of the a 00:09:21.000 --> 00:09:23.440 picture of your mother, I think you're 00:09:22.879 --> 00:09:25.240 thinking of 00:09:23.440 --> 00:09:27.440 of your mother's mother, Yeah, you you 00:09:25.240 --> 00:09:30.560 you pile them up. It's just one one of 00:09:27.440 --> 00:09:33.400 many ways of of dramatizing the the 00:09:30.559 --> 00:09:34.879 enormity of of geological time. I forget 00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:36.879 exactly how it goes. There are lots of 00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:40.240 ways of doing it. I mean, No, but you do 00:09:36.879 --> 00:09:41.759 this, and if you keep doing it, one of 00:09:40.240 --> 00:09:42.279 those pictures is 00:09:41.759 --> 00:09:43.960 a fish. 00:09:42.279 --> 00:09:46.199 is a fish. 00:09:43.960 --> 00:09:48.200 And yet and yet, every single generation 00:09:46.200 --> 00:09:49.720 looks like the the the previous one and 00:09:48.200 --> 00:09:51.200 and the next one. There's no sudden 00:09:49.720 --> 00:09:53.000 There's no sudden It's not sudden. 00:09:51.200 --> 00:09:54.280 And many people can't grasp this. They 00:09:53.000 --> 00:09:56.200 think, "Well, there must have been a 00:09:54.279 --> 00:09:57.639 time when it stopped being a fish, and 00:09:56.200 --> 00:09:59.120 you know, it must But there wasn't. It 00:09:57.639 --> 00:10:01.159 just gradually, gradually, gradually, 00:09:59.120 --> 00:10:03.759 gradually changed. Okay, will you allow 00:10:01.159 --> 00:10:04.959 me, given this, which I completely 00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:09.480 understand, 00:10:04.960 --> 00:10:11.240 you have to allow me my explanation for 00:10:09.480 --> 00:10:13.920 the chicken and the egg. Okay. 00:10:11.240 --> 00:10:17.000 Okay. So, I tell people, but I've never 00:10:13.919 --> 00:10:18.120 gotten your blessings on this. Can I use 00:10:17.000 --> 00:10:21.919 that word with you? 00:10:18.120 --> 00:10:22.919 Yeah, of course. I'm all for blessings. 00:10:21.919 --> 00:10:25.479 So, 00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:27.399 so, I simply tell people, they say what 00:10:25.480 --> 00:10:28.920 came first, chicken or egg? I said, the 00:10:27.399 --> 00:10:31.159 egg. 00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:33.399 It was just laid by a bird that was not 00:10:31.159 --> 00:10:35.559 a chicken. Yes. 00:10:33.399 --> 00:10:38.039 That's a fair statement. I mean, it's 00:10:35.559 --> 00:10:39.519 I'm I'm compressing Yes. a billion, you 00:10:38.039 --> 00:10:41.959 know, the 100 million years of time 00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:43.199 there, but at some point you're going to 00:10:41.960 --> 00:10:44.400 say what comes out of the egg is a 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:48.440 chicken. 00:10:44.399 --> 00:10:49.840 And but that's a that's a genetic 00:10:48.440 --> 00:10:52.040 um 00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:54.360 alteration from the previous generation. 00:10:52.039 --> 00:10:56.279 But there never was a moment when 00:10:54.360 --> 00:10:58.080 a bird that was not a chicken gave rise 00:10:56.279 --> 00:11:00.639 to a chicken. It was never was it never 00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:01.680 course. So, this is a very compressed 00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:03.279 uh it's a shorthand 00:11:01.679 --> 00:11:05.000 Yes. for what you just said with the 00:11:03.279 --> 00:11:06.039 book of your ancestors 00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:07.720 going back to the fish. 00:11:06.039 --> 00:11:10.000 Yes. I I mean, I I once had a letter 00:11:07.720 --> 00:11:12.120 from a a lawyer who said um roughly 00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:14.320 speaking, you evolution can't be true 00:11:12.120 --> 00:11:16.799 because it's because a 00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:18.600 a species is defined as 00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:19.959 members can always interbreed with each 00:11:18.600 --> 00:11:22.200 other and you can't imagine that there 00:11:19.960 --> 00:11:23.839 was a time when child generation was 00:11:22.200 --> 00:11:26.040 incapable of breeding with the previous 00:11:23.839 --> 00:11:28.040 generation. Of course, couldn't. But he 00:11:26.039 --> 00:11:29.639 thought that meant that 00:11:28.039 --> 00:11:30.559 somehow evolution was invalid. He 00:11:29.639 --> 00:11:32.000 couldn't grasp that 00:11:30.559 --> 00:11:34.519 that everything was specially created. 00:11:32.000 --> 00:11:36.759 Yeah. Ev- everything is it it's a 00:11:34.519 --> 00:11:39.759 gradual process all the way through and 00:11:36.759 --> 00:11:42.480 and and as you step back through your 00:11:39.759 --> 00:11:43.879 ancestors, they become slightly less 00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:45.879 like a human, slightly less like a 00:11:43.879 --> 00:11:48.000 human, but you never notice it as as you 00:11:45.879 --> 00:11:49.759 walk past them if you imagine I want to 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:52.200 see a fish. 00:11:49.759 --> 00:11:53.838 It's just funny. So, you skip ahead and 00:11:52.200 --> 00:11:56.400 there's a fish. You say that's my 00:11:53.839 --> 00:11:58.160 parent. Yes. That's Yes. 00:11:56.399 --> 00:11:59.279 It's a little freaky for people. You got 00:11:58.159 --> 00:12:01.000 to You got to appreciate 00:11:59.279 --> 00:12:02.879 you walk along the generations, you'd 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:05.120 never see you'd never see them them 00:12:02.879 --> 00:12:07.039 getting more fish-like. It'd just be 00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:08.919 so so gradual, you'd never notice it. 00:12:07.039 --> 00:12:09.919 Cuz generations are only 30, 40 years 00:12:08.919 --> 00:12:13.159 and we're talking billions. 00:12:09.919 --> 00:12:15.079 Yes, that's right. You needed deep time 00:12:13.159 --> 00:12:17.679 for evolution to do what it needed to 00:12:15.080 --> 00:12:19.680 do. Even in the 19th century, my people, 00:12:17.679 --> 00:12:22.838 the most we were going to give you as a 00:12:19.679 --> 00:12:25.799 biologist or even the geologist was 10 00:12:22.839 --> 00:12:28.320 million years, 20 million at tops. We 00:12:25.799 --> 00:12:30.240 didn't know about energy contained 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:32.000 inside the nucleus of the atom yet, 00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:33.519 nuclear energy, which is how the sun 00:12:32.000 --> 00:12:35.879 makes fuel. We didn't know that at the 00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:37.759 time. So, the best we could do was say 00:12:35.879 --> 00:12:40.399 it was a lump of coal. Darwin's son 00:12:37.759 --> 00:12:42.519 George was Darwin's son George was one 00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:44.319 of the people who pointed out eventually 00:12:42.519 --> 00:12:47.199 that nuclear energy um could do the 00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:49.240 trick. Oh. My little p- Okay, thank 00:12:47.200 --> 00:12:51.440 thank him for him. 00:12:49.240 --> 00:12:53.320 Which of the Darwins explained tides for 00:12:51.440 --> 00:12:53.920 the first time? Probably George. I I'm 00:12:53.320 --> 00:12:56.400 not sure. 00:12:53.919 --> 00:12:59.360 I think it was a Darwin and Newton and 00:12:56.399 --> 00:13:00.879 Galileo did not understand tide. It was 00:12:59.360 --> 00:13:01.639 even though they had all the gravity 00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:02.080 necessary 00:13:01.639 --> 00:13:03.919 Is that right? 00:13:02.080 --> 00:13:07.080 account for it. It's there's a subtle 00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:09.079 point with tides where if you look at 00:13:07.080 --> 00:13:10.440 any textbook, 00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:12.960 any textbook, 00:13:10.440 --> 00:13:14.880 it'll have like the moon 00:13:12.960 --> 00:13:16.000 and Earth and it'll have a tidal bulge 00:13:14.879 --> 00:13:17.000 pointing towards the moon. 00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:19.399 Yes, that's wrong. 00:13:17.000 --> 00:13:20.839 It's wrong. It doesn't It the moon would 00:13:19.399 --> 00:13:22.720 want that to happen, Yeah. But that's 00:13:20.839 --> 00:13:25.360 not how it is. Yes. The tidal bulge is 00:13:22.720 --> 00:13:25.920 in advance of the moon in its orbit. 00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:28.519 Yes. 00:13:25.919 --> 00:13:30.759 Okay. And that's Earth's rotation 00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:32.120 pushing the tides ahead of the moon. And 00:13:30.759 --> 00:13:34.240 it's that interaction that has 00:13:32.120 --> 00:13:36.320 remarkable consequences. The moon is 00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:38.639 slowing down Earth's rotation. 00:13:36.320 --> 00:13:40.600 And Earth already slowed down the moon's 00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:41.759 rotation. So, it's tidally locked to us. 00:13:40.600 --> 00:13:43.519 They'll one day be tidally locked. 00:13:41.759 --> 00:13:45.399 We'll be double tidally locked. And when 00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:47.159 that happens, then the tides will line 00:13:45.399 --> 00:13:48.879 up cuz we're not be pushing it ahead of 00:13:47.159 --> 00:13:50.159 the moon. So, that had to somebody had 00:13:48.879 --> 00:13:51.960 to figure all that out. So, that's 00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:54.120 another Darwin. Thank Thank you for your 00:13:51.960 --> 00:13:56.000 Darwins. 00:13:54.120 --> 00:13:58.519 New developments and discoveries are 00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:00.559 happening every single day. So, keeping 00:13:58.519 --> 00:14:03.159 up with science and the world can be 00:14:00.559 --> 00:14:05.319 difficult for anyone. Misinformation 00:14:03.159 --> 00:14:07.879 spreads online at the speed of light and 00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:11.000 trusted news outlets report on the same 00:14:07.879 --> 00:14:12.159 story differently. So, how do we find 00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:14.639 the truth? 00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:17.199 As science enthusiasts, we know how 00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:19.039 important it is to rely on research, 00:14:17.200 --> 00:14:21.120 data, and putting theories through 00:14:19.039 --> 00:14:24.199 endless testing before coming to any 00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:26.078 conclusion. 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You came up with the 00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:02.600 word meme. I know it was you. That was 00:16:01.958 --> 00:16:04.359 in the Selfish Gene. 00:16:02.600 --> 00:16:06.480 That was in the Selfish Gene. Yes. You 00:16:04.360 --> 00:16:09.600 invented the word and people long 00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:10.920 forgot. Tell me the authentic definition 00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:11.600 of meme cuz that's not how anybody's 00:16:10.919 --> 00:16:13.719 using it today. 00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:15.759 Units of cultural inheritance and the 00:16:13.720 --> 00:16:18.360 analog of the gene in in cultural 00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:20.919 inheritance. Okay, so this is this is 00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:24.560 communicated from one person to another 00:16:20.919 --> 00:16:25.559 Yes. and certain memes have higher 00:16:24.559 --> 00:16:28.319 communicability. 00:16:25.559 --> 00:16:29.799 I I really wanted to to say that because 00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:31.839 the whole book had been about the gene 00:16:29.799 --> 00:16:32.919 as the unit of selection. That's how I I 00:16:31.839 --> 00:16:33.959 described it to you when you asked me 00:16:32.919 --> 00:16:35.719 earlier. 00:16:33.958 --> 00:16:38.599 Um it didn't have to be genes. It could 00:16:35.720 --> 00:16:39.879 be anything that is self-replicating. 00:16:38.600 --> 00:16:43.200 And nowadays, I would have used a 00:16:39.879 --> 00:16:45.078 computer virus as as my Mm. analogy 00:16:43.200 --> 00:16:48.160 probably for the gene. Mhm. But in those 00:16:45.078 --> 00:16:49.399 days, computer viruses, well, 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:50.838 maybe they'd been invented. I didn't 00:16:49.399 --> 00:16:52.958 know about them anyway. 00:16:50.839 --> 00:16:55.160 Um so, I used the units of cultural 00:16:52.958 --> 00:16:58.039 inheritance. It's something like a 00:16:55.159 --> 00:16:59.439 um So, M is M is for memory, so a memory 00:16:58.039 --> 00:17:00.199 gene. It's a portmanteau. 00:16:59.440 --> 00:17:01.959 it's it's 00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:05.199 it's it's that's right. It's it comes 00:17:01.958 --> 00:17:07.198 from the same root as as memory. Okay. 00:17:05.199 --> 00:17:09.839 So, if I say something, we have 00:17:07.199 --> 00:17:12.120 alligators in the New York City subway. 00:17:09.838 --> 00:17:15.639 Yes. If that spreads, if that if that 00:17:12.119 --> 00:17:17.799 spreads because it's a a repeatable lie 00:17:15.640 --> 00:17:18.839 or or or even might be true. Whatever it 00:17:17.799 --> 00:17:19.759 is. If if it spreads, 00:17:18.838 --> 00:17:19.919 Whatever it is, doesn't matter what it 00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:21.439 is. 00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:22.480 doesn't matter. If it spreads, then it's 00:17:21.439 --> 00:17:25.040 a successful meme. 00:17:22.480 --> 00:17:26.480 Because it's so interesting to me, I 00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:28.960 Yeah. have to tell someone else. 00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:31.920 Exactly. Exactly. We love to tell 00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:34.240 stories which surprise people or amuse 00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:36.320 people, whether or not they're true. 00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:37.960 So, nowadays, it's just an image of 00:17:36.319 --> 00:17:39.159 something kind of cool, you know. 00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:41.120 I'm really sorry about that. 00:17:39.160 --> 00:17:43.560 Yeah. No, no, no, that's not your fault. 00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:45.879 No. But it it's you've contributed to 00:17:43.559 --> 00:17:47.000 our culture. So, the best of the memes 00:17:45.880 --> 00:17:48.000 are the ones that are spread around the 00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:50.960 most. That's 00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:53.079 Yes. It's a meme of me doing this. 00:17:50.960 --> 00:17:54.160 Okay. Yes. Like I think what is it 00:17:53.079 --> 00:17:57.480 called? 00:17:54.160 --> 00:17:59.519 Watch out, you got a badass over here. I 00:17:57.480 --> 00:18:01.799 never said that. Okay. And there is a 00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:02.720 picture of me doing this. 00:18:01.799 --> 00:18:03.678 Uh 00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:07.519 But but it spreads. 00:18:03.679 --> 00:18:10.840 It spread and there are people in South 00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:12.440 America who saw me in the street. They 00:18:10.839 --> 00:18:14.359 were they were tourists. They said, "We 00:18:12.440 --> 00:18:16.480 know you from the meme." This is like 10 00:18:14.359 --> 00:18:18.519 years ago or something. I said, 00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:21.160 "The meme? Really? That's not even me. 00:18:18.519 --> 00:18:23.440 Why did that So, somehow that spread. I 00:18:21.160 --> 00:18:25.240 don't have any understanding of it. I'll 00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:26.679 tell you mine. John Cleese told me about 00:18:25.240 --> 00:18:28.359 that. He was What is that? 00:18:26.679 --> 00:18:30.000 Well, you you you do you remember the 00:18:28.359 --> 00:18:31.559 Fawlty Towers and and Yes. 00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:33.039 Yes. Okay. Well, there's there's an 00:18:31.559 --> 00:18:34.960 episode where the where some Germans 00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:36.599 visit visit the hotel. 00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:38.120 And and um 00:18:36.599 --> 00:18:40.079 Ba- Basil Fawlty is going, "Don't 00:18:38.119 --> 00:18:41.719 mention the war. Don't don't mention the 00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:43.519 war." And of course, he doesn't does 00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:45.240 mention it. Anyway, he was in I think it 00:18:43.519 --> 00:18:46.679 was Munich Airport 00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:48.159 and he was going up the escalator and 00:18:46.679 --> 00:18:49.919 there was a man way over there and going 00:18:48.159 --> 00:18:51.679 down the escalator 00:18:49.919 --> 00:18:53.600 ri- right across the hall and he 00:18:51.679 --> 00:18:56.440 recognized him and he shouted, "Don't 00:18:53.599 --> 00:18:57.959 mention the war!" 00:18:56.440 --> 00:19:00.559 Okay. 00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:01.919 So, that meme is spreading in Germany. 00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:04.918 So, that's the Selfish Gene. So, let's 00:19:01.919 --> 00:19:07.240 move ahead here. The Blind Watchmaker. 00:19:04.919 --> 00:19:08.400 Oh, that's that's my favorite book of 00:19:07.240 --> 00:19:11.079 yours, if I may. 00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:13.640 okay. Um well, the watchmaker comes from 00:19:11.079 --> 00:19:15.439 William Paley, who the theologian 00:19:13.640 --> 00:19:17.080 said that there must be a god because if 00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:19.120 you find a watch, 00:19:17.079 --> 00:19:21.079 you pick out you pick up the watch. He's 00:19:19.119 --> 00:19:22.359 crossing a heath, he said. You open it 00:19:21.079 --> 00:19:24.439 up. 00:19:22.359 --> 00:19:25.918 Great big pocket watch in those days. 00:19:24.440 --> 00:19:26.720 Pocket watches were watches in those 00:19:25.919 --> 00:19:27.919 days. 00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:29.960 And um 00:19:27.919 --> 00:19:31.320 uh and you see all the cogwheels and 00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:33.319 springs and things. It had to have a 00:19:31.319 --> 00:19:36.319 designer, of course it did. And so, how 00:19:33.319 --> 00:19:39.200 much more would you say that of an eye 00:19:36.319 --> 00:19:41.079 or a a knee joint or anything living. 00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:43.279 So, that that's the Paley watchmaker 00:19:41.079 --> 00:19:44.599 argument. Natural selection is the blind 00:19:43.279 --> 00:19:46.639 watchmaker. 00:19:44.599 --> 00:19:48.319 It produces results that are like 00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:50.240 watches. They're beautifully designed. 00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:52.119 Eyes are beautifully designed. 00:19:50.240 --> 00:19:53.200 Certain flaws, but they're are obviously 00:19:52.119 --> 00:19:54.919 designed. 00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:56.519 And they come about not through any 00:19:54.920 --> 00:19:58.279 design process, not through any 00:19:56.519 --> 00:20:00.519 deliberate design, but through the blind 00:19:58.279 --> 00:20:02.720 watchmaker, which is natural selection. 00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:04.240 So, it's a So, that's hard for people to 00:20:02.720 --> 00:20:05.360 accept, especially if they're deeply 00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:06.279 religious. Yes. 00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:06.879 Because they have they already have an 00:20:06.279 --> 00:20:07.200 account. 00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:08.960 Yes. 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:12.000 Now, you're saying one of the acts of 00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:13.440 their God is some random force operating 00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:14.480 He didn't have to be there at all. He 00:20:13.440 --> 00:20:16.160 didn't have to be there at all. 00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:19.400 Yes. And I think where people get 00:20:16.160 --> 00:20:22.240 confused, and even some of our people 00:20:19.400 --> 00:20:24.519 have made this mistake. Uh Fred Hoyle, 00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:29.039 who was the architect of the steady 00:20:24.519 --> 00:20:32.039 state universe, who pejoratively 00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:33.720 invented the name Big Bang to describe 00:20:32.039 --> 00:20:36.279 the universe beginning in one point. He 00:20:33.720 --> 00:20:39.759 said that in a pejorative way. He wanted 00:20:36.279 --> 00:20:41.680 the universe to be a steady state. Um he 00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:44.640 did a calculation 00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:46.560 for how you would get an eye, 00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:47.600 a fully functioning eye, and how long 00:20:46.559 --> 00:20:49.000 that would take. And it was some 00:20:47.599 --> 00:20:51.359 impossibly, 00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:54.079 you know, 10 to the some very high power 00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:55.519 number of years, given the rate at which 00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:59.559 you have 00:20:55.519 --> 00:21:02.519 um a defects in a in a in a in a genome. 00:20:59.559 --> 00:21:04.839 And what Correct me if I'm wrong. 00:21:02.519 --> 00:21:06.440 The rebuttal to that is 00:21:04.839 --> 00:21:07.519 natural selection is not completely 00:21:06.440 --> 00:21:09.440 random. 00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:10.599 Well, no. That's right. It Actually, it 00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:12.519 wasn't an eye. It was a it was a 00:21:10.599 --> 00:21:14.319 hemoglobin molecule, but it's the it's 00:21:12.519 --> 00:21:16.799 the same argument anyways. What he 00:21:14.319 --> 00:21:19.000 overlooked was that it doesn't happen 00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:20.159 all in one go. He he imagined all the 00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:21.799 bits 00:21:20.160 --> 00:21:23.800 coming together 00:21:21.799 --> 00:21:25.000 at random. Um every 00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:26.319 And that's one case that doesn't work, 00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:28.519 and it has another random thing that 00:21:26.319 --> 00:21:29.639 doesn't work, and you do that forever. 00:21:28.519 --> 00:21:32.279 If you do that forever, of course you 00:21:29.640 --> 00:21:33.560 won't but what what you need is Let's 00:21:32.279 --> 00:21:36.440 Let's use the eye, even though he 00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:38.000 didn't. Um you need a slightly less good 00:21:36.440 --> 00:21:39.440 eye, and then a slightly less good eye, 00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:41.519 and a slightly less good eye. And you 00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:43.160 start with just a 00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:46.079 uh a sheet of 00:21:43.160 --> 00:21:48.040 light-sensitive cells, which just detect 00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:49.319 whether it's light or dark. That's 00:21:48.039 --> 00:21:50.440 useful. It's not like 00:21:49.319 --> 00:21:52.319 better than nothing. It's better than 00:21:50.440 --> 00:21:53.559 not having it. You can tell when when 00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:55.639 it's night or day, you can tell whether 00:21:53.559 --> 00:21:58.480 there's a predator flying overhead. And 00:21:55.640 --> 00:22:00.520 then, if you have a um 00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:02.480 a slightly cup-shaped If you if you if 00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:04.119 you bend that retina from a flat thing 00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:06.440 into a slight cup, 00:22:04.119 --> 00:22:08.519 then if it's coming from that direction, 00:22:06.440 --> 00:22:09.960 it hits that side of of the We are on 00:22:08.519 --> 00:22:10.839 video, aren't we? Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:22:09.960 --> 00:22:12.679 Uh-huh. 00:22:10.839 --> 00:22:14.119 Uh and so, you got It's not an image, 00:22:12.679 --> 00:22:15.960 but it but it gives a slight 00:22:14.119 --> 00:22:18.159 directionality. 00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:20.200 And then and you close up, and you start 00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:22.080 to get a pinhole camera. 00:22:20.200 --> 00:22:24.200 Um it's a very crude and out of focus, 00:22:22.079 --> 00:22:26.199 but it's sort of an image. And then, you 00:22:24.200 --> 00:22:28.720 need a little bit of 00:22:26.200 --> 00:22:30.799 transparent gunk in there. It's not a 00:22:28.720 --> 00:22:33.519 proper lens, but it does something like 00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:35.319 a lens. And all these stages, 00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:37.480 one by one, they step by step, they 00:22:35.319 --> 00:22:39.399 incrementally improve. 00:22:37.480 --> 00:22:41.839 And every improvement is the new 00:22:39.400 --> 00:22:42.360 starting place for the variations at 00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:43.359 that generation. 00:22:42.359 --> 00:22:43.519 right. And then and then you get 00:22:43.359 --> 00:22:44.678 improvement. 00:22:43.519 --> 00:22:45.200 Cuz every generation is not starting 00:22:44.679 --> 00:22:46.080 from zero. 00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:47.440 That's right. Yes. 00:22:46.079 --> 00:22:48.839 So, the blind watchmaker I I just 00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:50.039 thought that was brilliantly written, 00:22:48.839 --> 00:22:53.399 and 00:22:50.039 --> 00:22:54.960 it was my benchmark for 00:22:53.400 --> 00:22:57.720 if I were to ever write a book for the 00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:59.840 public, I want to be this articulate. 00:22:57.720 --> 00:22:59.960 Oh, wow. That's highly complimentary. 00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:02.439 Thank you for that. 00:22:59.960 --> 00:23:03.160 just want you to know I just want you to 00:23:02.440 --> 00:23:03.960 know that. 00:23:03.160 --> 00:23:07.000 Thank you for that. 00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:08.559 Okay. Let Let the record show. 00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:10.400 Climbing Mount Improbable. Well, that's 00:23:08.559 --> 00:23:11.079 what we've just been talking about. Um 00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:13.280 uh 00:23:11.079 --> 00:23:13.519 Mount Improbable is Just that metaphor. 00:23:13.279 --> 00:23:15.359 Describe it. 00:23:13.519 --> 00:23:18.160 a It's a metaphor where you've got a a 00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:19.759 mountain with a sheer cliff, a 00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:22.480 vertical cliff. 00:23:19.759 --> 00:23:24.759 And on the top of the cliff is an eye. 00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:27.319 And to produce the eye in the Fred Hoyle 00:23:24.759 --> 00:23:28.599 manner would be to leap from the bottom 00:23:27.319 --> 00:23:29.439 of the cliff to the top in one go. 00:23:28.599 --> 00:23:31.000 one go. 00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:32.759 You cannot do do it, but you go around 00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:35.119 the other side of the mountain, and you 00:23:32.759 --> 00:23:37.599 find a nice gentle slope. And so, you 00:23:35.119 --> 00:23:39.439 just climb. 00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:43.319 Step by step, and you and you get reach 00:23:39.440 --> 00:23:45.799 the summit. Okay. So, so if you think it 00:23:43.319 --> 00:23:47.039 got there in one fell swoop, there's no 00:23:45.799 --> 00:23:48.319 Of course, you're going to invent a God, 00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:50.920 cuz what what 00:23:48.319 --> 00:23:51.399 But not imagining that there's another 00:23:50.920 --> 00:23:54.240 way, 00:23:51.400 --> 00:23:56.240 Yes. you're stuck in one 00:23:54.240 --> 00:23:57.039 religious philosophy versus any other 00:23:56.240 --> 00:23:57.640 philosophy. 00:23:57.039 --> 00:23:58.678 Yes. 00:23:57.640 --> 00:24:02.400 Okay. 00:23:58.679 --> 00:24:03.960 All right. Got that. And uh this one 00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:06.240 much was written about Unweaving the 00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:08.960 Rainbow. So, tell me about that. Okay. 00:24:06.240 --> 00:24:11.160 Um That was what to 1998 now. That That 00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:12.360 comes from Keats. 00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:14.279 Uh I did not know that. 00:24:12.359 --> 00:24:15.678 Keats complained about Newton spoiling 00:24:14.279 --> 00:24:18.160 all the poetry of the rainbow by 00:24:15.679 --> 00:24:19.640 explaining it. And so, my my point was 00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:21.840 the point which you've made often enough 00:24:19.640 --> 00:24:24.120 that actually, there's far more poetry 00:24:21.839 --> 00:24:26.000 in really understanding the spectrum. 00:24:24.119 --> 00:24:27.639 So, I I Did I tell you this? Do you 00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:29.200 remember there was this It was on 00:24:27.640 --> 00:24:31.480 YouTube. There was this called Double 00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:33.279 Rainbow Guy. Have you ever seen this? 00:24:31.480 --> 00:24:35.120 No. Double rainbow. You got You should 00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:37.039 check it out. Okay, this is now back 00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:39.359 when social media was just people 00:24:37.039 --> 00:24:41.440 posting things. It wasn't the cesspool 00:24:39.359 --> 00:24:43.359 that it is today. So, he was hiking 00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:45.240 somewhere, there's some guy back when 00:24:43.359 --> 00:24:47.479 you had you needed a camcorder to take 00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:48.920 videos, not a cell phone. He's hiking in 00:24:47.480 --> 00:24:50.319 the What is it? Sierra Madre? I don't 00:24:48.920 --> 00:24:53.039 remember where. 00:24:50.319 --> 00:24:55.599 And he's You hear him sort of narrating 00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:58.119 his Oh, that's a nice cliff, huh? Then 00:24:55.599 --> 00:24:59.719 he turns a corner, and he says, 00:24:58.119 --> 00:25:01.279 Oh! 00:24:59.720 --> 00:25:04.600 A rainbow! 00:25:01.279 --> 00:25:07.480 Oh my gosh! What What could it mean? Oh, 00:25:04.599 --> 00:25:10.079 a double rainbow! Oh my gosh! And he's 00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:12.360 tearing You don't see him, but you can 00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:14.720 easily interpret just his emotions, his 00:25:12.359 --> 00:25:17.919 breath. And then he goes prostrate to 00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:19.720 the ground. Yes. And and he he can't 00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:22.600 contain himself. 00:25:19.720 --> 00:25:25.160 What does it mean? This is a sign. And 00:25:22.599 --> 00:25:27.000 so, I I felt bad doing this. 00:25:25.160 --> 00:25:28.519 You might be proud of me, but I felt bad 00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:31.279 doing this. I 00:25:28.519 --> 00:25:35.679 I tweeted. I put a link to this 00:25:31.279 --> 00:25:37.519 to this video, and I said, This is how 00:25:35.679 --> 00:25:39.320 you behave 00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:41.119 if you've never studied physics. 00:25:39.319 --> 00:25:43.039 Yes. 00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:45.399 But I thought that was kind of mean. 00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:47.759 He's having his moment. Well, in a way, 00:25:45.400 --> 00:25:49.720 that's what Keats was doing. 00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:51.079 To Newton. Yes, that's right. But 00:25:49.720 --> 00:25:52.960 anyway, I can capital story in the 00:25:51.079 --> 00:25:55.119 opposite direction. I read a story about 00:25:52.960 --> 00:25:57.559 a woman in California. 00:25:55.119 --> 00:25:59.279 She had a a lawn sprinkler, 00:25:57.559 --> 00:26:01.319 and she saw a rainbow in the lawn 00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:04.799 sprinkler, and she said, "What are they 00:26:01.319 --> 00:26:04.799 doing to our water supply?" 00:26:06.519 --> 00:26:11.799 That's funny. 00:26:08.519 --> 00:26:13.400 Oh my gosh! So, I did not know that that 00:26:11.799 --> 00:26:14.559 that Keats had that to say about Newton, 00:26:13.400 --> 00:26:16.280 cuz Newton 00:26:14.559 --> 00:26:18.639 yeah, he decoded the rainbow. And that 00:26:16.279 --> 00:26:21.200 was what That was his thing. One of his 00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:23.040 things. Uh by the way, you mentioned 00:26:21.200 --> 00:26:26.000 beautiful the eye is, even with some 00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:27.839 flaws. As an astrophysicist, 00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:30.400 when I would learn this very early, when 00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:32.399 I took classes here, actually, when I 00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:34.800 was in middle school at the Hayden 00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:36.360 Planetarium, uh that's when I learned 00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:37.519 about the entire electromagnetic 00:26:36.359 --> 00:26:38.879 spectrum. 00:26:37.519 --> 00:26:40.759 And 00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:44.160 that the visible part of the spectrum is 00:26:40.759 --> 00:26:44.480 tiny. It's not even a full octave That's 00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:48.040 right. 00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:50.559 of the of what's out there. And then, I 00:26:48.039 --> 00:26:53.639 was just disappointed with my sight. I 00:26:50.559 --> 00:26:56.039 said, "Is this the best nature can get? 00:26:53.640 --> 00:26:57.640 Is this You know, you know, let me go 00:26:56.039 --> 00:26:59.879 back in line and see what else is 00:26:57.640 --> 00:27:01.720 there." And later on in Star Trek: The 00:26:59.880 --> 00:27:04.320 Next Generation, there'd be a character 00:27:01.720 --> 00:27:07.799 called Geordi. He had a VISOR, 00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:09.279 V I S O R, which was an acronym, Visual 00:27:07.799 --> 00:27:14.079 Instrument 00:27:09.279 --> 00:27:15.289 Sight Organ Replacement. And so, early 00:27:14.079 --> 00:27:16.879 acronym days. 00:27:15.289 --> 00:27:20.319 [Music] 00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:22.400 So, yeah, I'd be intrigued by what the 00:27:20.319 --> 00:27:24.639 world would look like that way. For 00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:26.759 example, if you're Someone's calling you 00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:29.080 on your on your cell phone, 00:27:26.759 --> 00:27:30.279 that would be like radiant microwaves 00:27:29.079 --> 00:27:32.519 while that's happening. That'd be just 00:27:30.279 --> 00:27:34.519 kind of cool. You know, or if you go by 00:27:32.519 --> 00:27:36.400 the the countryside, and you see uh 00:27:34.519 --> 00:27:38.400 radio towers, they would be the 00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:40.080 brightest things on the horizon. And now 00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:41.960 they're just hunks of metal. And so, 00:27:40.079 --> 00:27:43.359 they get him to look at scenes that 00:27:41.960 --> 00:27:44.799 they're coming upon. What's high in 00:27:43.359 --> 00:27:47.479 x-rays, it's high in this, it's high in 00:27:44.799 --> 00:27:49.359 that. And then I worried that if you 00:27:47.480 --> 00:27:51.960 could see all bands of light, that would 00:27:49.359 --> 00:27:54.079 be very visually noisy, wouldn't it? 00:27:51.960 --> 00:27:56.600 Yes. I mean, if you see right through to 00:27:54.079 --> 00:27:57.720 radio waves, you wouldn't I mean, Well, 00:27:56.599 --> 00:27:58.839 then everything becomes transparent. 00:27:57.720 --> 00:28:00.200 wavelengths. Yes. 00:27:58.839 --> 00:28:00.678 Then then this There are no walls in 00:28:00.200 --> 00:28:03.000 this office. 00:28:00.679 --> 00:28:05.320 won't see things. That's right. You have 00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:07.079 coined this term, and we've even 00:28:05.319 --> 00:28:09.919 appeared on stage together under this 00:28:07.079 --> 00:28:12.359 title, The Poetry of Reality. 00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:14.920 And I'm all in. 00:28:12.359 --> 00:28:17.000 But if you're actually a poet, surely 00:28:14.920 --> 00:28:19.120 there are parts of reality that are best 00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:21.559 expressed by a poet. Would you agree? I 00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:24.158 suppose so. I've never quite understood 00:28:21.559 --> 00:28:25.599 I mean, I I I don't write verse. 00:28:24.159 --> 00:28:29.280 Um but 00:28:25.599 --> 00:28:32.799 I suppose, like you, I try to 00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:33.039 evoke emotion at the same time as 00:28:32.799 --> 00:28:34.359 science. 00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:35.759 Otherwise, it's just a Wiki page. 00:28:34.359 --> 00:28:37.918 Yes, that's right. 00:28:35.759 --> 00:28:39.960 And um I'm not not entirely clear what 00:28:37.919 --> 00:28:41.440 what what you mean by poetic. I sort of 00:28:39.960 --> 00:28:42.679 feel intuitively I know what it means, 00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:44.400 but I can't 00:28:42.679 --> 00:28:47.800 quite put it into words. Maybe that's no 00:28:44.400 --> 00:28:50.200 accident. Um but um 00:28:47.799 --> 00:28:52.158 Yes, I I 00:28:50.200 --> 00:28:54.080 defend in my own mind the idea that 00:28:52.159 --> 00:28:57.159 science is the poetry 00:28:54.079 --> 00:28:59.079 of of reality. It makes me feel poetic. 00:28:57.159 --> 00:29:00.679 And I think it makes you feel poetic. 00:28:59.079 --> 00:29:02.918 So, it might be self-serving on that 00:29:00.679 --> 00:29:05.040 level. The what would matter if others 00:29:02.919 --> 00:29:07.400 can be convinced of the same. 00:29:05.039 --> 00:29:09.480 Cuz otherwise, it's just a self-licking 00:29:07.400 --> 00:29:11.519 ice cream cone, That's right. And if But 00:29:09.480 --> 00:29:14.079 if you're if you're skilled in writing, 00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:15.000 I think you can bring others with you. 00:29:14.079 --> 00:29:17.678 For me, 00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:20.039 poetry, art more broadly, 00:29:17.679 --> 00:29:22.000 best serves us 00:29:20.039 --> 00:29:24.678 when it highlights something you might 00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:26.319 have otherwise missed, or never noticed. 00:29:24.679 --> 00:29:29.240 It's a good way to put it. My best 00:29:26.319 --> 00:29:32.879 example of that was July 21st, 22nd, was 00:29:29.240 --> 00:29:34.120 it? After we landed on the moon in 1969, 00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:35.880 The New York Times had a special 00:29:34.119 --> 00:29:37.678 section. 00:29:35.880 --> 00:29:39.400 People reacting to the fact that we 00:29:37.679 --> 00:29:42.320 walked on the moon. And there were these 00:29:39.400 --> 00:29:44.400 all these famous poets of the day. 00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:47.079 There was Archibald MacLeish, and you 00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:50.000 know, people who who who carried the 00:29:47.079 --> 00:29:51.319 soul of creative expression 00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:55.559 in the day. 00:29:51.319 --> 00:29:57.879 And I read these poems. They were awful. 00:29:55.559 --> 00:30:00.240 They're We have pierced the sky and 00:29:57.880 --> 00:30:01.840 touched the sky. And I'm thinking 00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:03.319 none of this 00:30:01.839 --> 00:30:04.959 is greater 00:30:03.319 --> 00:30:06.679 than the act of walking on the moon 00:30:04.960 --> 00:30:08.440 itself. 00:30:06.680 --> 00:30:10.680 So, maybe I don't need artists to 00:30:08.440 --> 00:30:12.640 interpret that for me. Maybe I need them 00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:16.560 to interpret the tree that I'm walking 00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:17.759 by. Then you get Joyce Kilmer's poem The 00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:19.720 Tree. 00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:20.759 I will never see something as lovely as 00:30:19.720 --> 00:30:23.559 a tree. 00:30:20.759 --> 00:30:24.480 It arms pressed to the sky. It There's 00:30:23.559 --> 00:30:27.119 that 00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:28.360 in American poetry, Henry Wadsworth 00:30:27.119 --> 00:30:30.119 Longfellow, 00:30:28.359 --> 00:30:32.279 uh who wrote The Midnight Ride of Paul 00:30:30.119 --> 00:30:34.359 Revere. That might not be heralded as 00:30:32.279 --> 00:30:38.599 great poetry, but we all know it here in 00:30:34.359 --> 00:30:41.119 America. And that's a poem about a guy 00:30:38.599 --> 00:30:42.279 who told other people that the enemy was 00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:45.439 coming. 00:30:42.279 --> 00:30:47.960 Is that an important person? 00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:49.680 No. Yet, we all know that person's name 00:30:47.960 --> 00:30:52.079 because it's a poem about him. You do 00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:53.920 not know that corresponding person for 00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:55.720 any other war that has ever been fought 00:30:53.920 --> 00:30:57.560 in the history of the world. 00:30:55.720 --> 00:30:59.319 The person who told other people that 00:30:57.559 --> 00:31:00.960 the enemy was coming. That is not a 00:30:59.319 --> 00:31:02.279 person, but for us it is cuz it was a 00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:04.000 poem about him. 00:31:02.279 --> 00:31:07.319 It was somebody who would otherwise go 00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:09.160 forgotten. So, for me, art is best when 00:31:07.319 --> 00:31:10.639 it captures that. I don't need I don't 00:31:09.160 --> 00:31:13.200 need artists saying, "Oh, I saw this 00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:15.080 Hubble photo. Here's my painting of that 00:31:13.200 --> 00:31:16.279 Hubble photo." 00:31:15.079 --> 00:31:17.720 I don't need that cuz I got the Hubble 00:31:16.279 --> 00:31:19.799 photo. 00:31:17.720 --> 00:31:21.759 Give me a point of view that science 00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:23.399 does not give me. Then we can hang out 00:31:21.759 --> 00:31:25.359 together in the sandbox. That's how I 00:31:23.400 --> 00:31:27.360 feel about it. The tree poem you 00:31:25.359 --> 00:31:28.279 mentioned, that was a religious poem. I 00:31:27.359 --> 00:31:28.319 I mean, 00:31:28.279 --> 00:31:29.559 only God could make a tree. 00:31:28.319 --> 00:31:31.599 at the end, but no, that come come The 00:31:29.559 --> 00:31:33.799 God 00:31:31.599 --> 00:31:36.240 was just in the culture. So, is it 00:31:33.799 --> 00:31:37.919 religious when you say goodbye when that 00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:39.839 draws from God be with you? It's just a 00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:42.160 cultural expression. 00:31:39.839 --> 00:31:43.839 Carl Sagan's chapter headings. They They 00:31:42.160 --> 00:31:44.560 inspire me. Just just every single one 00:31:43.839 --> 00:31:47.319 of his chapter headings. 00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:48.279 Yes. Um His widow, Yes. 00:31:47.319 --> 00:31:50.919 Adrienne, 00:31:48.279 --> 00:31:53.678 who is highly literate unto herself and 00:31:50.920 --> 00:31:55.000 co-author of all three Cosmoses, even 00:31:53.679 --> 00:31:57.120 the two that I Yes. 00:31:55.000 --> 00:31:59.200 have had the privilege of hosting. Um 00:31:57.119 --> 00:32:01.359 she was a major force in that poetic 00:31:59.200 --> 00:32:03.279 voice. I just want to give credit where 00:32:01.359 --> 00:32:04.959 that's due there. Across the backbone of 00:32:03.279 --> 00:32:09.319 night, I mean, that that is a poetic 00:32:04.960 --> 00:32:10.400 phrase. Um it immediately speaks to me. 00:32:09.319 --> 00:32:11.960 Um 00:32:10.400 --> 00:32:15.360 I see the Milky Way. I'm not sure I'm 00:32:11.960 --> 00:32:17.720 meant to. Um and and 00:32:15.359 --> 00:32:19.678 I guess I try to do something similar. 00:32:17.720 --> 00:32:21.960 Mhm. List in some of my books. Hey, 00:32:19.679 --> 00:32:25.000 StarTalk fans. I don't know if you know 00:32:21.960 --> 00:32:28.960 this, but the audio version of the 00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:31.119 podcast actually posts a week in advance 00:32:28.960 --> 00:32:34.799 of the video version. And you can get 00:32:31.119 --> 00:32:37.719 that in Spotify and Apple Podcast and 00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:41.000 most other podcast outlets that are out 00:32:37.720 --> 00:32:43.519 there. Multiple ways to ingest 00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:45.000 all that is cosmic on StarTalk. 00:32:43.519 --> 00:32:47.000 All right, I'm up to 2004. The 00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:49.400 Ancestor's Tale. 00:32:47.000 --> 00:32:51.799 That is a title that reminds me of the 00:32:49.400 --> 00:32:52.560 Sagan book Shadows of Forgotten 00:32:51.799 --> 00:32:55.599 Ancestors. 00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:57.519 Yes. It It kind of feels the same to me. 00:32:55.599 --> 00:32:59.559 So, in what happened in Ancestor's Tale? 00:32:57.519 --> 00:33:02.400 it's it's it's a reference to Chaucer. 00:32:59.559 --> 00:33:03.599 Um and the Canterbury Tales. 00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:04.600 Um And 00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:05.159 But one of his tales was not the 00:33:04.599 --> 00:33:05.639 ancestor. 00:33:05.160 --> 00:33:07.560 No, no, no. 00:33:05.640 --> 00:33:08.920 Oh, you just There's the Miller's Tale 00:33:07.559 --> 00:33:10.639 and now there's the Ancestor's Tale. 00:33:08.920 --> 00:33:12.279 It's a history of life. 00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:14.000 Um but it's going backwards. So, it's in 00:33:12.279 --> 00:33:15.920 it's the form of a pilgrimage, 00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:18.599 Chaucerian pilgrimage going backwards in 00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:21.240 time. We human pilgrims set off into the 00:33:18.599 --> 00:33:22.719 past and we're joined by the chimpanzee 00:33:21.240 --> 00:33:25.359 pilgrims and then the orangutan and then 00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:27.360 the gorilla pilgrims 00:33:25.359 --> 00:33:28.639 finally get back to the origin of life. 00:33:27.359 --> 00:33:30.399 Um so, 00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:31.800 it's a way of doing history of life, but 00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:33.120 do it backwards because if you do it 00:33:31.799 --> 00:33:36.000 forwards, 00:33:33.119 --> 00:33:38.639 then you end up with the idea that 00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:40.200 humans are kind of the the climax, which 00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:42.280 you don't want. I mean, that's that's 00:33:40.200 --> 00:33:43.920 not a good way of looking at it. So, if 00:33:42.279 --> 00:33:45.079 you go backwards, 00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:46.519 um then you start 00:33:45.079 --> 00:33:47.678 Okay, that's I'm 00:33:46.519 --> 00:33:49.879 I was getting on your case, but that's 00:33:47.679 --> 00:33:52.440 brilliant. Brilliant. Thanks for deliver 00:33:49.880 --> 00:33:54.920 I'm going to now read that, okay? Cuz 00:33:52.440 --> 00:33:57.679 that I missed that one. Uh here's one we 00:33:54.920 --> 00:34:00.440 all saw and know about whether or not we 00:33:57.679 --> 00:34:03.200 read it, The God Delusion. That put you 00:34:00.440 --> 00:34:05.400 on a plateau to be identified as one of 00:34:03.200 --> 00:34:08.000 the four horsemen. All right. 00:34:05.400 --> 00:34:09.639 Okay. Not not a phrase that that 00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:11.280 any of us actually 00:34:09.639 --> 00:34:13.000 It was bestowed upon you? Yes. 00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:14.840 Yeah, so it was Daniel Dennett, 00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:17.239 Christopher Hitchens Hitchens, Sam 00:34:14.840 --> 00:34:19.760 Harris. Um and both of them are past. 00:34:17.239 --> 00:34:22.398 Sam Harris and you. Yes. Okay. The four 00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:23.600 horsemen who have each been quite vocal 00:34:22.398 --> 00:34:25.440 about 00:34:23.599 --> 00:34:26.960 their atheism. Yes. And The God 00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:27.440 Delusion, if that's not atheist, I don't 00:34:26.960 --> 00:34:28.000 know what is. 00:34:27.440 --> 00:34:30.519 It is, yes. 00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:33.358 In the title. Yes. Right. So, we spoke 00:34:30.519 --> 00:34:35.280 about this book before. Didn't you say 00:34:33.358 --> 00:34:38.159 there were religious groups that wanted 00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:41.640 people to read it so that they know the 00:34:38.159 --> 00:34:43.960 face of their enemy? Was that I forget. 00:34:41.639 --> 00:34:45.119 It's quite possible. Um 00:34:43.960 --> 00:34:47.280 There are some people who say they were 00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:49.519 converted to religion by it. 00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:51.240 Really? I'm not quite sure how they 00:34:49.519 --> 00:34:52.878 managed to get that, but 00:34:51.239 --> 00:34:55.279 doesn't say much for my rhetorical 00:34:52.878 --> 00:34:57.039 skills. 00:34:55.280 --> 00:34:58.160 So, is this your single biggest selling 00:34:57.039 --> 00:35:01.199 book, The God Delusion? 00:34:58.159 --> 00:35:03.000 Uh yes, just about, yes. It was equal 00:35:01.199 --> 00:35:05.439 with The Selfish Gene, maybe. I've taken 00:35:03.000 --> 00:35:07.280 you to task on the very first day I met 00:35:05.440 --> 00:35:09.840 you, and it I think it's worth repeating 00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:11.120 here. The first day I ever knew you, 00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:13.559 again, I like I said, I'd read your 00:35:11.119 --> 00:35:15.960 books and yeah yeah I aspired to have 00:35:13.559 --> 00:35:18.880 the vocabulary the command of vocabulary 00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:20.960 that you that spills off your plate. 00:35:18.880 --> 00:35:23.000 I took you to task in the front of a 00:35:20.960 --> 00:35:24.440 group It was It was one of the uh what's 00:35:23.000 --> 00:35:25.199 the name of that conference? A Beyond 00:35:24.440 --> 00:35:27.079 Belief conference. 00:35:25.199 --> 00:35:28.119 Oh, yes. Which gathered Oh, yes. That's 00:35:27.079 --> 00:35:30.759 right. Which gathered scientists, 00:35:28.119 --> 00:35:32.880 biologists, theologians, philosophers. 00:35:30.760 --> 00:35:35.400 Yes. And it was to discuss are we in an 00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:37.039 era beyond where belief matters? Yes. 00:35:35.400 --> 00:35:39.880 Does belief still matter? So, it was 00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:42.519 quite the juxtaposition of points of 00:35:39.880 --> 00:35:45.200 view. You and I are up up on front in a 00:35:42.519 --> 00:35:46.480 panel. Two other people are there. 00:35:45.199 --> 00:35:48.279 And 00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:50.599 I heard you speak. 00:35:48.280 --> 00:35:52.280 I'd only ever read what you wrote. Then 00:35:50.599 --> 00:35:56.039 I heard you speak. 00:35:52.280 --> 00:35:58.440 It was more articulate and more barbed 00:35:56.039 --> 00:36:01.000 than anything I'd ever read that you had 00:35:58.440 --> 00:36:04.840 written. And I said, "Oh my gosh, I'm 00:36:01.000 --> 00:36:07.559 glad we're on the same side because 00:36:04.840 --> 00:36:11.480 because if you had spoke to me, I'd feel 00:36:07.559 --> 00:36:14.519 like a complete idiot. I would feel not 00:36:11.480 --> 00:36:16.679 worthy of life." And then I thought, 00:36:14.519 --> 00:36:18.119 "You are so potent. 00:36:16.679 --> 00:36:20.639 Is this 00:36:18.119 --> 00:36:23.319 turning people off because they reject 00:36:20.639 --> 00:36:25.440 it? Because you are not investing in how 00:36:23.320 --> 00:36:27.920 they think. Everybody has little 00:36:25.440 --> 00:36:29.920 receptors for receiving information. And 00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:31.320 if you're just going to say, 'I'm right 00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:33.920 and I know I'm right and you all are 00:36:31.320 --> 00:36:35.840 just wrong and you're idiots,' 00:36:33.920 --> 00:36:37.240 maybe that's not as effective as you can 00:36:35.840 --> 00:36:39.480 be. So, I 00:36:37.239 --> 00:36:42.079 challenged you to be a little more 00:36:39.480 --> 00:36:44.440 sensitive to people who are just trying 00:36:42.079 --> 00:36:46.639 to explore the world and that you could 00:36:44.440 --> 00:36:49.440 be more effective than you are. Do you 00:36:46.639 --> 00:36:51.319 remember your reply to me? I said, 00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:53.039 "I gratefully accept the rebuke." Yeah. 00:36:51.320 --> 00:36:55.640 By the way, in that moment, there was 00:36:53.039 --> 00:36:57.039 like 5 seconds of silence cuz I'm just 00:36:55.639 --> 00:37:01.199 some young whippersnapper and you're 00:36:57.039 --> 00:37:03.440 like storied, famous guy on stage. 00:37:01.199 --> 00:37:06.000 Nobody made a sound. In London, there 00:37:03.440 --> 00:37:07.800 was No no no no no no no. Just in that 00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:09.480 moment of silence, it's 00:37:07.800 --> 00:37:11.519 how is he going to react? It was one of 00:37:09.480 --> 00:37:14.039 these what's he going to say? In that 00:37:11.519 --> 00:37:16.199 moment, it was total silence. And then 00:37:14.039 --> 00:37:19.440 you broke the silence with "I gratefully 00:37:16.199 --> 00:37:21.960 accept the rebuke." And then people were 00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:23.720 people got were calmed after that. Yes, 00:37:21.960 --> 00:37:25.159 and you gave a worse example. What was 00:37:23.719 --> 00:37:25.879 it? Do you remember? 00:37:25.159 --> 00:37:27.480 The editor of 00:37:25.880 --> 00:37:29.720 yeah. The editor of New Scientist who 00:37:27.480 --> 00:37:30.920 who was asked, 00:37:29.719 --> 00:37:32.879 uh 00:37:30.920 --> 00:37:34.599 "What is your policy at New Scientist 00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:36.840 magazine?" And he said, "Our policy at 00:37:34.599 --> 00:37:38.920 New Scientist magazine is science is 00:37:36.840 --> 00:37:40.680 interesting. If you don't agree, you can 00:37:38.920 --> 00:37:42.720 off." 00:37:40.679 --> 00:37:45.879 So, so that was So, that's so we can 00:37:42.719 --> 00:37:48.239 feel better about you. 00:37:45.880 --> 00:37:50.720 The Greatest Show on Earth, 2009, 00:37:48.239 --> 00:37:52.799 subtitled The Evidence for Evolution. 00:37:50.719 --> 00:37:56.239 Was that motivated because around that 00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:57.560 time there was the rise of uh what they 00:37:56.239 --> 00:37:59.599 called intelligent design. 00:37:57.559 --> 00:38:02.480 Well, that had come before. I mean, this 00:37:59.599 --> 00:38:03.639 was um in a way, The Blind Watchmaker 00:38:02.480 --> 00:38:04.240 was a response to that. 00:38:03.639 --> 00:38:06.960 Yes, of course. 00:38:04.239 --> 00:38:09.239 Um but um now this was ready to set out 00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:12.240 the evidence for evolution, which which 00:38:09.239 --> 00:38:14.519 I hadn't really done before. Mhm. I just 00:38:12.239 --> 00:38:17.399 sort of assumed it. So, You assumed that 00:38:14.519 --> 00:38:19.079 everyone knew it. Well, not Well, not 00:38:17.400 --> 00:38:19.480 really. Well, yes, maybe. Yes, maybe. 00:38:19.079 --> 00:38:21.159 Okay. 00:38:19.480 --> 00:38:22.400 Yeah. There's a lot of misunderstanding 00:38:21.159 --> 00:38:25.679 I have found. People think that an 00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:29.840 organism adapts to its environment. And 00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:31.519 I say, "No, it either survives or dies." 00:38:29.840 --> 00:38:33.280 Yes, that's right. Right. I mean, 00:38:31.519 --> 00:38:36.400 there's And there's a great quote at the 00:38:33.280 --> 00:38:39.080 end of War of the Worlds, where as you 00:38:36.400 --> 00:38:41.280 remember, H. G. Wells, at the end, 00:38:39.079 --> 00:38:44.719 there's a recitation, 00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:46.200 and he says, I'm paraphrasing, he says, 00:38:44.719 --> 00:38:49.599 "These These creatures from another 00:38:46.199 --> 00:38:52.439 planet, they they were doomed, undone by 00:38:49.599 --> 00:38:56.079 the smallest creatures on Earth 00:38:52.440 --> 00:38:58.440 uh where for to whom to which we had 00:38:56.079 --> 00:39:01.840 developed immunity." Yes. And it ends 00:38:58.440 --> 00:39:04.920 with a very poetic phrase, "No man lives 00:39:01.840 --> 00:39:05.920 nor dies in vain." 00:39:04.920 --> 00:39:07.639 That 00:39:05.920 --> 00:39:10.440 through through the toll of a billion 00:39:07.639 --> 00:39:12.719 deaths, man has bought his birthright on 00:39:10.440 --> 00:39:14.920 this Earth, and it is his against all 00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:16.919 comers, and it would have still been his 00:39:14.920 --> 00:39:20.519 had the Martians been 10 times as mighty 00:39:16.920 --> 00:39:22.960 as they are, because no no no man lives 00:39:20.519 --> 00:39:24.239 nor dies in vain. And I And that I 00:39:22.960 --> 00:39:27.599 thought that was potent. He was, of 00:39:24.239 --> 00:39:30.439 course, scientifically literate, and he 00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:31.960 he's saying there generations that die 00:39:30.440 --> 00:39:34.400 because they didn't have they can't make 00:39:31.960 --> 00:39:35.760 it through this next stress to the 00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:36.680 environment. 00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:38.040 It's 00:39:36.679 --> 00:39:40.279 rather horrifying when you think that 00:39:38.039 --> 00:39:42.679 actually that's what happened to the 00:39:40.280 --> 00:39:45.240 native South Americans when the Spanish 00:39:42.679 --> 00:39:47.639 arrived, Um I mean that they were killed 00:39:45.239 --> 00:39:50.039 by by epidemics of things like measles 00:39:47.639 --> 00:39:51.480 which they had no no 00:39:50.039 --> 00:39:54.360 immunity. 00:39:51.480 --> 00:39:56.480 And in Europe built up an immunity to 00:39:54.360 --> 00:39:58.280 the to these diseases and But the better 00:39:56.480 --> 00:40:00.920 analogy would have been had the South 00:39:58.280 --> 00:40:01.880 Americans wanted to invade Europe. Yes. 00:40:00.920 --> 00:40:04.039 They would have then died by the 00:40:01.880 --> 00:40:08.079 European diseases. But that's not how 00:40:04.039 --> 00:40:09.199 Yes. European colonialism works. 00:40:08.079 --> 00:40:11.799 Just a couple more books here. I'm 00:40:09.199 --> 00:40:13.439 skipping over like a half a dozen with 00:40:11.800 --> 00:40:15.560 your permission. 00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:17.639 One that I delighted cuz not only cuz I 00:40:15.559 --> 00:40:19.079 received a book a copy of it in the mail 00:40:17.639 --> 00:40:21.319 from your publisher. It was just 00:40:19.079 --> 00:40:24.400 delightfully done. Flights of Fancy 00:40:21.320 --> 00:40:26.680 Defying Gravity by Design and Evolution. 00:40:24.400 --> 00:40:29.440 That was 2021. Beautiful book, 00:40:26.679 --> 00:40:29.879 illustrated. And who's the illustrator 00:40:29.440 --> 00:40:32.360 of that book? 00:40:29.880 --> 00:40:34.079 Yana Solova. She's Slovak. 00:40:32.360 --> 00:40:35.440 Just something that I think is under 00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:37.759 appreciated 00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:39.679 in in this world cuz we can't fly. So 00:40:37.760 --> 00:40:41.200 especially in the idea that we're at the 00:40:39.679 --> 00:40:42.839 top of the evolutionary scale and 00:40:41.199 --> 00:40:46.159 everything else is less than us. What 00:40:42.840 --> 00:40:48.240 does the condor say about that? 00:40:46.159 --> 00:40:49.879 Who flaps its wings once every 10 00:40:48.239 --> 00:40:52.719 minutes because it coasts the rest of 00:40:49.880 --> 00:40:54.200 the time. So just just a celebration of 00:40:52.719 --> 00:40:56.359 flight in the 00:40:54.199 --> 00:40:58.239 in evolution. I I was delighted by that. 00:40:56.360 --> 00:41:00.079 Thank you. That was sort of designed for 00:40:58.239 --> 00:41:02.959 young people. Started as a children's 00:41:00.079 --> 00:41:02.960 Well, that's why I liked it. 00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:06.039 That that accounted for its its 00:41:04.639 --> 00:41:09.000 accessibility. I mean it was just very 00:41:06.039 --> 00:41:10.920 fun to to see the illustrations and 00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:13.079 and and the like. And right now there's 00:41:10.920 --> 00:41:14.920 a book coming out called 00:41:13.079 --> 00:41:17.000 The Genetic Book of the Dead. 00:41:14.920 --> 00:41:18.840 Yes. A publisher actually let you use 00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:21.119 that title. Why wouldn't they? 00:41:18.840 --> 00:41:21.760 Cuz it's so it's like what? A Book of 00:41:21.119 --> 00:41:23.599 the Dead? 00:41:21.760 --> 00:41:25.480 worries me. Well, I don't know. I think 00:41:23.599 --> 00:41:27.039 it's rather an uplifting title. It it 00:41:25.480 --> 00:41:29.280 Genetic Book of the Dead. 00:41:27.039 --> 00:41:30.440 Yes. It doesn't mean human dead. What's 00:41:29.280 --> 00:41:32.519 it does it have a subtitle? What's the 00:41:30.440 --> 00:41:34.800 subtitle of it? It does have a subtitle. 00:41:32.519 --> 00:41:37.039 A Darwinian Reverie. So tell me about 00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:39.160 this book. I haven't read it yet. If you 00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:41.159 if you look at a 00:41:39.159 --> 00:41:43.839 highly camouflaged animal, 00:41:41.159 --> 00:41:45.879 a a desert lizard is one that I use. 00:41:43.840 --> 00:41:46.880 It's got pebbles and sand all over its 00:41:45.880 --> 00:41:48.760 back. It's 00:41:46.880 --> 00:41:51.840 just a a dummy 00:41:48.760 --> 00:41:53.200 painting of a desert on its back. Okay? 00:41:51.840 --> 00:41:55.880 So 00:41:53.199 --> 00:41:58.039 that is a description of the worlds in 00:41:55.880 --> 00:42:01.559 which its ancestors lived. You can read 00:41:58.039 --> 00:42:03.679 that animal as a book describing the 00:42:01.559 --> 00:42:05.920 desert world in which its ancestors 00:42:03.679 --> 00:42:08.639 lived. Now that's an easy example 00:42:05.920 --> 00:42:11.039 because it's got it painted on its back. 00:42:08.639 --> 00:42:12.839 But it must be true right the way 00:42:11.039 --> 00:42:14.599 through every bit of the every cell of 00:42:12.840 --> 00:42:16.480 the animal. Every molecule of the animal 00:42:14.599 --> 00:42:17.440 has got the same 00:42:16.480 --> 00:42:19.240 uh 00:42:17.440 --> 00:42:22.240 description written 00:42:19.239 --> 00:42:23.959 And some of it is baggage. Baggage as in 00:42:22.239 --> 00:42:26.919 burdensome rather than 00:42:23.960 --> 00:42:27.599 Yes, but We have an appendix that can 00:42:26.920 --> 00:42:28.240 burst. 00:42:27.599 --> 00:42:29.799 That's true. 00:42:28.239 --> 00:42:31.199 have a pinky toe. When's the last time 00:42:29.800 --> 00:42:33.960 you made good use of that? 00:42:31.199 --> 00:42:37.159 You'd be surprised. 00:42:33.960 --> 00:42:41.000 The the point is that natural selection 00:42:37.159 --> 00:42:44.079 is very very fussy. It's very very 00:42:41.000 --> 00:42:47.119 intricate in its in its choice. 00:42:44.079 --> 00:42:49.920 Far more than we we we even know about. 00:42:47.119 --> 00:42:52.799 We are poor judges of what's important 00:42:49.920 --> 00:42:54.360 for survival. And you think that 00:42:52.800 --> 00:42:56.560 the genes that survive going back to the 00:42:54.360 --> 00:42:58.280 selfish gene. The genes that survive 00:42:56.559 --> 00:43:00.840 have to survive through lots and lots of 00:42:58.280 --> 00:43:03.440 different individuals and through a huge 00:43:00.840 --> 00:43:06.320 amount of geological time. And so any 00:43:03.440 --> 00:43:09.000 statistical estimate that you and I make 00:43:06.320 --> 00:43:12.080 about the likelihood that your pinky 00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:15.360 will be of any use to you is a 00:43:12.079 --> 00:43:17.920 statistical mistake. Natural selection 00:43:15.360 --> 00:43:20.160 is a much better statistician than than 00:43:17.920 --> 00:43:23.000 we are. So I need to think harder about 00:43:20.159 --> 00:43:24.399 my pinky toe. Well, natural selection 00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:26.760 has 00:43:24.400 --> 00:43:30.400 millions of years in which to choose 00:43:26.760 --> 00:43:32.440 between successful toes and unsuccessful 00:43:30.400 --> 00:43:35.079 toes. Um 00:43:32.440 --> 00:43:37.639 JBS Haldane did a calculation. 00:43:35.079 --> 00:43:41.519 Uh JBS Haldane the great geneticist did 00:43:37.639 --> 00:43:44.960 great did did a calculation. He imagined 00:43:41.519 --> 00:43:47.559 a a feature like a toe. Some something 00:43:44.960 --> 00:43:50.320 that seems trivial to to to you. And he 00:43:47.559 --> 00:43:52.840 said let's allow that it's 00:43:50.320 --> 00:43:56.039 so trivial that for every thousand 00:43:52.840 --> 00:44:00.920 individuals who have it and survive, 999 00:43:56.039 --> 00:44:03.119 die. This feature toe whatever it is has 00:44:00.920 --> 00:44:04.880 been repeated 00:44:03.119 --> 00:44:06.440 thousands of times in lots of different 00:44:04.880 --> 00:44:09.119 individuals and through lots of 00:44:06.440 --> 00:44:10.960 different millions of of years. 00:44:09.119 --> 00:44:12.279 And it's got to survive through all 00:44:10.960 --> 00:44:15.119 those times. I'm explaining this very 00:44:12.280 --> 00:44:18.000 badly. The the the main point is that we 00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:19.400 are very bad estimators of what's 00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:22.000 important 00:44:19.400 --> 00:44:23.880 in natural selection is a is a much 00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:26.599 better estimator of that. Okay, how 00:44:23.880 --> 00:44:27.039 about male pattern baldness? 00:44:26.599 --> 00:44:30.000 Well, 00:44:27.039 --> 00:44:32.199 got that one. Well, that's that's a 00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:34.840 variable. I mean some people have it and 00:44:32.199 --> 00:44:37.239 some people don't. You you might take 00:44:34.840 --> 00:44:40.120 another example um 00:44:37.239 --> 00:44:42.319 maybe fingerprints. Um 00:44:40.119 --> 00:44:43.639 Why why do we have fingerprints? Well, 00:44:42.320 --> 00:44:44.680 the fact that they're different doesn't 00:44:43.639 --> 00:44:46.079 matter. But 00:44:44.679 --> 00:44:47.440 are they important for clinging onto the 00:44:46.079 --> 00:44:49.400 trees when we were 00:44:47.440 --> 00:44:50.760 you know had our boreal ancestors? That 00:44:49.400 --> 00:44:52.200 kind of thing. 00:44:50.760 --> 00:44:54.000 Um 00:44:52.199 --> 00:44:56.480 Oh, I see. So even if they're not useful 00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:57.480 now, they were useful to get us to where 00:44:56.480 --> 00:44:58.920 they are we are now. 00:44:57.480 --> 00:45:00.639 Hence the Genetic Book of the Dead. I 00:44:58.920 --> 00:45:01.760 mean we're talking about the talking 00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:03.920 about the past. 00:45:01.760 --> 00:45:05.400 Yeah, you're right. There it is. 00:45:03.920 --> 00:45:07.400 The Genetic Book of the Dead. 00:45:05.400 --> 00:45:10.119 Yes. Enabling us to get to where we are 00:45:07.400 --> 00:45:12.000 at all. Yes. We are we are a description 00:45:10.119 --> 00:45:14.839 of the worlds in which our dead 00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:16.280 ancestors survived until they until they 00:45:14.840 --> 00:45:17.680 died. 00:45:16.280 --> 00:45:18.920 Survived it long enough to reproduce. 00:45:17.679 --> 00:45:20.599 Because if we didn't survive, we'd go 00:45:18.920 --> 00:45:22.840 we'd be extinct and we wouldn't be here 00:45:20.599 --> 00:45:24.039 to talk about it in modern times. We 00:45:22.840 --> 00:45:25.760 well, I'm only here because our 00:45:24.039 --> 00:45:26.400 ancestors survived long enough to 00:45:25.760 --> 00:45:29.040 reproduce. 00:45:26.400 --> 00:45:30.880 Yes. And they survived because of the 00:45:29.039 --> 00:45:31.880 highly detailed features that that they 00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:33.680 had which their rivals didn't. 00:45:31.880 --> 00:45:34.960 think differently about my pinky toe. 00:45:33.679 --> 00:45:36.799 Because without the pinky toe, there 00:45:34.960 --> 00:45:40.679 might have been some 00:45:36.800 --> 00:45:42.200 dead ancestor that would have ended that 00:45:40.679 --> 00:45:42.960 branch of the tree of life. And we would 00:45:42.199 --> 00:45:44.319 have never been here. 00:45:42.960 --> 00:45:46.039 That's right. Yes. Yeah. Do you have 00:45:44.320 --> 00:45:47.600 hope for a civilization 00:45:46.039 --> 00:45:53.119 as it's currently manifested in the 00:45:47.599 --> 00:45:54.639 world? I think we have to have hope to 00:45:53.119 --> 00:45:56.599 to live our lives at all. It doesn't 00:45:54.639 --> 00:46:00.559 mean that at an intellectual level I 00:45:56.599 --> 00:46:02.880 necessarily have have but I I I I I live 00:46:00.559 --> 00:46:06.759 my life as though I have hope. Yes. 00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:08.039 I've come I I've become 00:46:06.760 --> 00:46:11.920 cynical's not the right word. I've 00:46:08.039 --> 00:46:13.559 become a practical cynic. It's 00:46:11.920 --> 00:46:17.920 There are people who think this way or 00:46:13.559 --> 00:46:21.079 feel that way or behave this other way. 00:46:17.920 --> 00:46:22.039 And I I've stopped trying to change 00:46:21.079 --> 00:46:23.759 them. 00:46:22.039 --> 00:46:25.719 What I try to do is 00:46:23.760 --> 00:46:28.320 offer a way of looking at the world that 00:46:25.719 --> 00:46:31.639 maybe they'll take, maybe they won't. 00:46:28.320 --> 00:46:33.519 Maybe as an educator it's my job to make 00:46:31.639 --> 00:46:35.079 this as tasty as possible so that hey, 00:46:33.519 --> 00:46:36.400 that's a good idea. I never thought 00:46:35.079 --> 00:46:38.960 about it that way. 00:46:36.400 --> 00:46:42.880 But otherwise, you know, I just gave a 00:46:38.960 --> 00:46:44.400 presentation to a Christian school. 00:46:42.880 --> 00:46:46.119 K through 12. 00:46:44.400 --> 00:46:47.800 I talked about 00:46:46.119 --> 00:46:50.799 optics. 00:46:47.800 --> 00:46:52.680 And at the end there was open Q&A and 00:46:50.800 --> 00:46:56.280 they were 11th graders. 00:46:52.679 --> 00:46:58.358 And they started grilling me on 00:46:56.280 --> 00:46:59.440 science versus the Bible. 00:46:58.358 --> 00:47:01.799 And 00:46:59.440 --> 00:47:03.320 I said I'm not here to stop you from 00:47:01.800 --> 00:47:05.519 being religious 00:47:03.320 --> 00:47:07.680 at all. Okay, we live in a country that 00:47:05.519 --> 00:47:09.840 protects your freedom 00:47:07.679 --> 00:47:11.919 to be religious. And you're in a private 00:47:09.840 --> 00:47:13.840 school. So the government is not going 00:47:11.920 --> 00:47:16.880 to come after you and say you have to 00:47:13.840 --> 00:47:18.320 get this out of the public coffers. 00:47:16.880 --> 00:47:20.880 I made that clear, but I didn't have the 00:47:18.320 --> 00:47:22.680 urge to try to 00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:24.720 convert them. 00:47:22.679 --> 00:47:27.079 And I get the sense that you you've had 00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:29.239 this urge your entire life 00:47:27.079 --> 00:47:33.400 to convert people 00:47:29.239 --> 00:47:35.599 with no less zeal than a religious 00:47:33.400 --> 00:47:37.358 person a religious 00:47:35.599 --> 00:47:39.759 um 00:47:37.358 --> 00:47:41.519 evangelical a religious person would 00:47:39.760 --> 00:47:43.080 have trying to convert people who are 00:47:41.519 --> 00:47:44.559 not that. Did I tell you I didn't tell 00:47:43.079 --> 00:47:45.480 you this? We have a Big Bang Theater 00:47:44.559 --> 00:47:47.639 here. Yes. 00:47:45.480 --> 00:47:50.079 back when we first opened here at the 00:47:47.639 --> 00:47:51.639 Hayden Planetarium, um there's a 00:47:50.079 --> 00:47:53.279 separate theater space where we just 00:47:51.639 --> 00:47:55.839 talk about the Big Bang. Someone came 00:47:53.280 --> 00:47:57.160 out of the Big Bang, saw me and said uh 00:47:55.840 --> 00:47:58.240 how come you didn't mention God in 00:47:57.159 --> 00:47:59.199 there? 00:47:58.239 --> 00:48:00.399 And 00:47:59.199 --> 00:48:02.559 then I realized okay, what am I going to 00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:05.280 do? I say, how about this? Why don't you 00:48:02.559 --> 00:48:07.000 go to our Hall of Human Evolution 00:48:05.280 --> 00:48:08.359 and then come back here. 00:48:07.000 --> 00:48:11.199 And when I tell them to do that, they 00:48:08.358 --> 00:48:13.719 never come back because that's way more 00:48:11.199 --> 00:48:15.759 offensive to them having you know 00:48:13.719 --> 00:48:18.319 monkeys and humans hold hands in the 00:48:15.760 --> 00:48:19.080 dioramas than anything we could ever say 00:48:18.320 --> 00:48:20.519 in the Big Bang here. 00:48:19.079 --> 00:48:21.799 thought they'd rather like Big Bang. I 00:48:20.519 --> 00:48:22.519 mean the Big Bang sounds pretty much 00:48:21.800 --> 00:48:24.960 like Genesis. 00:48:22.519 --> 00:48:25.840 Well, it's creation event. Yeah. Maybe 00:48:24.960 --> 00:48:28.320 that's why they thought we should have 00:48:25.840 --> 00:48:29.320 mentioned God and didn't. But I I just I 00:48:28.320 --> 00:48:31.000 don't I don't even have the 00:48:29.320 --> 00:48:32.039 conversation. I just send them over to 00:48:31.000 --> 00:48:33.559 your part of the museum. 00:48:32.039 --> 00:48:35.759 Yes. But I think you're being too 00:48:33.559 --> 00:48:37.440 pusillanimous. You you shouldn't duck 00:48:35.760 --> 00:48:39.200 those questions. And um 00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:41.800 Well, I don't duck it so much as 00:48:39.199 --> 00:48:43.358 sometimes I don't have the energy. 00:48:41.800 --> 00:48:45.200 Oh, that's different. 00:48:43.358 --> 00:48:46.519 I I I get that too. You feel that. I 00:48:45.199 --> 00:48:49.000 understand that. 00:48:46.519 --> 00:48:51.400 Um but in the in my field, there really 00:48:49.000 --> 00:48:52.920 is an absolute opposition. 00:48:51.400 --> 00:48:54.760 It's not something you Complete. 00:48:52.920 --> 00:48:56.159 Although the Catholic Church, they've 00:48:54.760 --> 00:48:56.520 met you in the middle. Yeah, yeah, they 00:48:56.159 --> 00:48:58.559 have. 00:48:56.519 --> 00:49:01.599 They said we have this branch of 00:48:58.559 --> 00:49:03.400 primates and then God breathed the soul 00:49:01.599 --> 00:49:05.279 into them and and they're humans. 00:49:03.400 --> 00:49:07.039 Allowing evolution all up to that point. 00:49:05.280 --> 00:49:10.000 yeah. That's You got You got to give 00:49:07.039 --> 00:49:13.079 give them some You got to knock. 00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:15.480 Not a step. Not a step. 00:49:13.079 --> 00:49:17.039 But the world is not that binary. 00:49:15.480 --> 00:49:17.880 It's not that binary. 00:49:17.039 --> 00:49:19.800 I don't see it that way. 00:49:17.880 --> 00:49:22.440 it is. There are religious people who 00:49:19.800 --> 00:49:25.400 are who where Jesus is their savior, but 00:49:22.440 --> 00:49:26.559 they're perfectly fine with a four and a 00:49:25.400 --> 00:49:29.000 half billion year old Earth. 00:49:26.559 --> 00:49:30.599 Yes, they are. Okay. They're not at the 00:49:29.000 --> 00:49:34.358 extreme. They don't don't see the 00:49:30.599 --> 00:49:36.679 contradiction. But but yes. So maybe the 00:49:34.358 --> 00:49:38.840 plurality of the world is a feature 00:49:36.679 --> 00:49:39.879 rather than a bug of the programming of 00:49:38.840 --> 00:49:42.120 what it is to be human. 00:49:39.880 --> 00:49:43.760 The truth is so much more grand and so 00:49:42.119 --> 00:49:45.480 much more elegant and so much more 00:49:43.760 --> 00:49:46.320 poetic and so much 00:49:45.480 --> 00:49:49.639 uh 00:49:46.320 --> 00:49:50.120 more beautiful. Why drag 00:49:49.639 --> 00:49:51.639 Jesus in 00:49:50.119 --> 00:49:54.199 And I would still claim you could get 00:49:51.639 --> 00:49:55.559 more of that across if people didn't 00:49:54.199 --> 00:49:57.399 feel stupid talking to you. 00:49:55.559 --> 00:49:59.000 yeah, that that's true. Uh so you're a 00:49:57.400 --> 00:49:59.440 professor at Oxford? Are you retired 00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:01.360 yet? Did you 00:49:59.440 --> 00:50:03.119 retired. You retired, okay. And you were 00:50:01.360 --> 00:50:03.400 professor of Public understanding of 00:50:03.119 --> 00:50:06.839 science. 00:50:03.400 --> 00:50:10.079 Yes, I remembered that. That was a a a a 00:50:06.840 --> 00:50:12.160 a post created by Charles Simonyi. 00:50:10.079 --> 00:50:16.279 To Charles Simonyi, yes. 00:50:12.159 --> 00:50:17.960 Uh and he he created multiples of those 00:50:16.280 --> 00:50:18.240 around the world. That wasn't the only 00:50:17.960 --> 00:50:20.800 one. 00:50:18.239 --> 00:50:23.479 he he he he wasn't it wasn't at the 00:50:20.800 --> 00:50:24.200 Princeton advanced Yeah, the Institute 00:50:23.480 --> 00:50:25.920 for Advanced Study, maybe? Okay. 00:50:24.199 --> 00:50:27.399 that's right. Yes. I think that was in a 00:50:25.920 --> 00:50:29.639 different field. I think that was Oh, 00:50:27.400 --> 00:50:31.639 okay. Okay, but I it's interesting He's 00:50:29.639 --> 00:50:32.679 a very generous Yeah, if you're wealthy 00:50:31.639 --> 00:50:34.599 and you want to make a change in the 00:50:32.679 --> 00:50:34.919 world, that's a way to sort of keep that 00:50:34.599 --> 00:50:36.599 going. 00:50:34.920 --> 00:50:38.599 Absolutely, yeah. And there's another 00:50:36.599 --> 00:50:39.719 professorship somewhere in the UK, a 00:50:38.599 --> 00:50:43.039 professorship of the public 00:50:39.719 --> 00:50:45.000 understanding of risk. That is That is a 00:50:43.039 --> 00:50:46.519 that's a professorship. 00:50:45.000 --> 00:50:49.119 And forgive me, I don't remember where, 00:50:46.519 --> 00:50:52.400 but I know that exists. And people have 00:50:49.119 --> 00:50:54.359 no way to judge or to think about that 00:50:52.400 --> 00:50:54.639 as a challenge in their lives. 00:50:54.360 --> 00:50:57.480 So 00:50:54.639 --> 00:50:58.239 is a fascinating subject. People get get 00:50:57.480 --> 00:51:00.559 so wrong. 00:50:58.239 --> 00:51:02.479 Yes, yes. Even smart people get that 00:51:00.559 --> 00:51:04.880 wrong. People who would otherwise think 00:51:02.480 --> 00:51:07.000 should be smart don't get it. 00:51:04.880 --> 00:51:07.559 Well, Richard has been a delight As 00:51:07.000 --> 00:51:09.800 always, thank you so much. 00:51:07.559 --> 00:51:12.360 have you here. Let me just end this with 00:51:09.800 --> 00:51:15.240 some brief reflections. Those among us 00:51:12.360 --> 00:51:17.440 who are educated 00:51:15.239 --> 00:51:18.279 on a level where you can't just hold it 00:51:17.440 --> 00:51:20.960 in, 00:51:18.280 --> 00:51:23.280 you have to sort of share the knowledge, 00:51:20.960 --> 00:51:24.679 wisdom, insights 00:51:23.280 --> 00:51:26.920 one gleans 00:51:24.679 --> 00:51:29.199 from having committed your life 00:51:26.920 --> 00:51:30.760 to studying a subject and its related 00:51:29.199 --> 00:51:33.879 components. 00:51:30.760 --> 00:51:35.200 And Richard Dawkins is an example of 00:51:33.880 --> 00:51:36.640 that. 00:51:35.199 --> 00:51:37.759 Carl Sagan used to say when you're in 00:51:36.639 --> 00:51:40.519 love, 00:51:37.760 --> 00:51:42.680 you want to tell the world. 00:51:40.519 --> 00:51:45.559 And 00:51:42.679 --> 00:51:47.199 whether the two dozen books on this list 00:51:45.559 --> 00:51:50.320 that I just read, 00:51:47.199 --> 00:51:53.079 uh this is Professor Dawkins 00:51:50.320 --> 00:51:55.000 can't can't contain his love. 00:51:53.079 --> 00:51:57.119 He's got to share it 00:51:55.000 --> 00:52:00.280 for all those 00:51:57.119 --> 00:52:02.480 who seek a deeper understanding 00:52:00.280 --> 00:52:03.680 of life, 00:52:02.480 --> 00:52:05.280 not only 00:52:03.679 --> 00:52:06.960 their own lives, 00:52:05.280 --> 00:52:08.200 the lives of everyone around them, and 00:52:06.960 --> 00:52:10.280 the lives 00:52:08.199 --> 00:52:12.199 of all that came before us, and the 00:52:10.280 --> 00:52:14.640 lives of all those 00:52:12.199 --> 00:52:16.559 yet to be born. 00:52:14.639 --> 00:52:18.119 But in there are messages of protecting 00:52:16.559 --> 00:52:20.400 our civilization 00:52:18.119 --> 00:52:23.559 because without it, there will be no 00:52:20.400 --> 00:52:25.119 future lives to be born. 00:52:23.559 --> 00:52:26.400 And then what of our branch in the tree 00:52:25.119 --> 00:52:27.719 of life? 00:52:26.400 --> 00:52:29.840 We can't let the roaches and the rats 00:52:27.719 --> 00:52:32.639 take over after us. 00:52:29.840 --> 00:52:32.640 Help us. 00:52:32.920 --> 00:52:37.760 That is a cosmic perspective. 00:52:36.039 --> 00:52:40.960 Neil deGrasse Tyson here, your personal 00:52:37.760 --> 00:52:43.920 astrophysicist. As always, I bid you 00:52:40.960 --> 00:52:43.920 to keep looking up. 00:52:44.159 --> 00:53:05.969 [Music]