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We have an appendix that can burst. You

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have a pinky toe. When was the last time

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you made good use of that?

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you'd be surprised.

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Natural selection is not completely

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random.

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And all these stages, one by one, they

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step by step, they incrementally

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improve.

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And every improvement is the new

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starting place for the variations at

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that generation.

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And they come about not through any

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design process, not through any

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deliberate design. Natural selection is

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the blind watchmaker.

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This is StarTalk. Neil deGrasse Tyson

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here, your personal astrophysicist. And

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today,

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I'm in conversation

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with

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the one, the only

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Richard Dawkins. Richard, welcome back

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to my office.

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Thank you very much.

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This is like your fourth time here or

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something. I've lost count.

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think it's something like that. It's

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always

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always a pleasure, Neil.

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Oh, welcome. I mean, we we we we have a

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lot of catching up to do, I think. Um

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so, recently, or at least this year, we

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lost Daniel Dennett, philosopher Daniel

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Dennett. I recently learned I didn't

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read all of his books, I read some of

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them.

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Uh he declared that Darwin's evolution

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by natural selection was the greatest

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idea anybody ever had. He's coming to it

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not as a biologist, but as a

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philosopher. So, how do you reflect on

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that declaration?

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He said that at the beginning of his

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book, uh Darwin's Dangerous Idea.

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And his point was that uh before Darwin

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came along, it seemed obvious to

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everyone that big, complicated things

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like humans and oak trees and things had

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to have a

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an an explanation in terms of design.

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And it was a huge

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stroke of insight for Darwin to see that

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it didn't that the laws of physics alone

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could produce this prodigious amount of

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complexity filtered through this odd

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process of natural selection. To me,

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it's always been strange that it took so

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long, that it took until the middle of

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the 19th century for Darwin and Wallace

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and even a maybe one or two other

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people. This is thousands of years of

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thought. But brilliant people have come

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before.

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Aristotle could have could have had it

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and didn't. I mean, when you think how

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much cleverer you had to be to do what

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Newton did

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uh

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or or Leibniz. Um inventing calculus, um

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working out about the laws of how how

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how gravity

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have a I have a Newton finger puppet

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here.

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Um you'd think that somebody would have

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tr- tumbled to evolution by natural

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selection before the middle of the 19th

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century, yet they didn't.

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And so, that's an astonishing thing, and

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it needs an explanation. Did Daniel

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Dennett explain why it took that long?

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Or and if he didn't, what would be your

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explanation?

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don't remember whether he did. Um well,

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first of all, Ernst Mayr, the great I

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mean, he was here, I think, in Here at

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the American Museum of Natural History.

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Yeah. Uh he thought it was because of

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essentialism. He thought that that

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because of Aristotle and Plato, who

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thought that

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just cuz they thought like geometers. I

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mean, a a a right angle triangle is a

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kind of perfect form sort of hanging out

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there.

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And they thought that the perfect

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rabbit, the perfect rhinoceros was

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hanging out there just just like a right

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angle triangle. So, you couldn't imagine

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how a rabbit could turn into anything

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different. That that was his

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explanation. That wouldn't be mine. I

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mean, I I I think I think it's just that

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That's an interesting one, though,

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because it speaks to the bias that we

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have observing nature. I mean, even in

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my field, so my people, including

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Copernicus,

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could not shake the idea of orbits that

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were per-

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perfect circles. They couldn't shake

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that. Why would God design a universe

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with a shape that wasn't geometrically

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perfect? So, even Copernicus, putting

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the sun back in the middle of the known

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universe, had circular orbits. And since

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the orbits are not circles, they

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actually differed from predictions on

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the night sky. So,

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that was a problem at the time. It's

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like, Copernicus, this might work, but

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it still doesn't fit. The epicycles are

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doing much better. And so so, it wasn't

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instantly

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taken up. It's including the resistance,

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the church resistance, of course, cuz

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course, yes. Earth wasn't in the middle

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anymore. Our counterpart to what I think

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you're describing is the urge to try to

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presume nature was perfect and then

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account for it with everything we know

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that is. Going back to uh

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why it took so long and the idea of the

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perfect rabbit, the perfect rhinoceros,

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the perfect horse. Um in a way, that's a

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bit silly, because if you were to look

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at them in

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a population of rabbits is is pretty

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variable.

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And um

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anyway, that that was uh Ernst Mayr's

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explanation for why it took so long. Um

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Darwin did it by going via

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artificial selection. Um everybody knew,

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farmers knew, horticulturalists knew,

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gardeners knew that you could change a

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rose, you could change a cabbage uh by

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just breeding. And really, Darwin's

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insight was say, "You don't actually

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need a breeder. You don't need need a

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human to do the breeding. Nature does it

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for you. Survival does it for you." It's

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not that difficult. I mean, it doesn't

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require any sort of higher mathematics

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or anything. And yet, nobody got it

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until Darwin and Wallace. And this is

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why I'm intrigued that Daniel Dennett, a

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philosopher, who in principle, any

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philosopher could have come up with

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this, because unlike relativity and

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unlike quantum physics, which are realms

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of

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behavior of the universe

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large and small that you can't just

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deduce from your armchair.

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But

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evolution by natural selection could

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have been deduced in an armchair. It

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just wasn't.

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it could. It It's It's surprising that

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it didn't. Um it's interesting that both

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Darwin and Wallace were traveling

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naturalists, and they both were

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collectors uh in South America. Both

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were in South America. Wallace lost his

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entire South American collection in a

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fire. Ooh.

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Um and then he went to the Far East. But

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but they were both collectors of natural

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history specimens.

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And um the other person who might have

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thought of it is Patrick Matthew, who

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who was a gardener and an orchard

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keeper.

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Um but philosophers know they didn't do

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it.

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They didn't it, and they could have.

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They could have, yes. So, you've

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written and I have a list here of like

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all your books.

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You've been out of control over

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Not as much as some people.

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Was The Selfish Gene your first book?

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Yes.

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Back in 1976.

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Yes. Um I was that was the year I

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graduated high school.

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No, I remember cuz it was like the

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bicentennial year. Everybody made a big

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deal of this. It was my first

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presidential election that I could vote

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in. And I voted for Jimmy Carter. And I

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got to tell him this so clichéd line,

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but I when I met him, I said, "You were

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my first president that I voted for."

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And it was 1 month after my birthday, I

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got to vote for him.

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So, I thought I'd have short exercise

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here. I'm going to mention your books.

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Could you just tell me

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what your favorite bit of that book was

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that you were communicating with the

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reader, if I may. So, start off The

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Selfish Gene. Natural selection chooses

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between genes. Genes are the only thing

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the information contained in genes.

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Digital information is the only thing

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that goes from generation to generation.

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That which survives is information,

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digital information. Some genes survive

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better than others. We, the bodies, we,

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the animals, we, the plants, are just

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the machines that are there to preserve

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the genes that ride in the that ride

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inside us.

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Whoa. Okay, so

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that reminds me of how I describe your

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gut bacteria. I I say

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Yes. People want to think they're like

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top of the world, and I say, "All you

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are to those bacteria is a darkened

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vessel of anaerobic fecal matter."

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That's right.

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And and it's pretty much the same with

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your with your genes. I mean, it's not

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it's not fecal matter, it's testicular

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matter or ovarian matter, but

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Yes. Okay, so they're the ones and

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they're the ones carrying themselves

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forward.

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Yes. So, if it's just information, can

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you imagine a day where the biology is

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no longer necessary and you just have

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the digital information stored or or

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duplicated in some way?

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Yes, certainly. Uh you could have I

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mean, already, you could preserve your

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entire genome. Um I mean, I've got my

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entire genome on on one disk. Uh and I I

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once

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you have a backup?

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Just checking. Um Is it on the cloud? Is

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it The The idea was I don't have a

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backup. The idea was it was a television

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program, and the conceit of the program

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was it was going to be posted into the

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family vault The Dawkins family vault in

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the church at Chipping Norton.

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Oh my gosh. To be dug up in a thousand

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years.

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Uh-huh. And they were and Like a like a

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time capsule.

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Yes, yes, exactly. And the idea was that

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in a thousand years, they dig it up and

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make a duplicate of me. And of course,

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then we talk about why it wouldn't

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actually be me, because it would just be

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an identical twin of me. Um but that

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that was the idea. Was Was it you? Yes,

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it must have been you, cuz who else

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would do this? Posted on social media.

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It was No, if you had a a book of the a

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picture of your mother, I think you're

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thinking of

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of your mother's mother, Yeah, you you

276
00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:30,560
you pile them up. It's just one one of

277
00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:33,400
many ways of of dramatizing the the

278
00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:34,879
enormity of of geological time. I forget

279
00:09:33,399 --> 00:09:36,879
exactly how it goes. There are lots of

280
00:09:34,879 --> 00:09:40,240
ways of doing it. I mean, No, but you do

281
00:09:36,879 --> 00:09:41,759
this, and if you keep doing it, one of

282
00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:42,279
those pictures is

283
00:09:41,759 --> 00:09:43,960
a fish.

284
00:09:42,279 --> 00:09:46,199
is a fish.

285
00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:48,200
And yet and yet, every single generation

286
00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,720
looks like the the the previous one and

287
00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,200
and the next one. There's no sudden

288
00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:53,000
There's no sudden It's not sudden.

289
00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,280
And many people can't grasp this. They

290
00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:56,200
think, "Well, there must have been a

291
00:09:54,279 --> 00:09:57,639
time when it stopped being a fish, and

292
00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,120
you know, it must But there wasn't. It

293
00:09:57,639 --> 00:10:01,159
just gradually, gradually, gradually,

294
00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:03,759
gradually changed. Okay, will you allow

295
00:10:01,159 --> 00:10:04,959
me, given this, which I completely

296
00:10:03,759 --> 00:10:09,480
understand,

297
00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:11,240
you have to allow me my explanation for

298
00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:13,920
the chicken and the egg. Okay.

299
00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:17,000
Okay. So, I tell people, but I've never

300
00:10:13,919 --> 00:10:18,120
gotten your blessings on this. Can I use

301
00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:21,919
that word with you?

302
00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:22,919
Yeah, of course. I'm all for blessings.

303
00:10:21,919 --> 00:10:25,479
So,

304
00:10:22,919 --> 00:10:27,399
so, I simply tell people, they say what

305
00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,920
came first, chicken or egg? I said, the

306
00:10:27,399 --> 00:10:31,159
egg.

307
00:10:28,919 --> 00:10:33,399
It was just laid by a bird that was not

308
00:10:31,159 --> 00:10:35,559
a chicken. Yes.

309
00:10:33,399 --> 00:10:38,039
That's a fair statement. I mean, it's

310
00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:39,519
I'm I'm compressing Yes. a billion, you

311
00:10:38,039 --> 00:10:41,959
know, the 100 million years of time

312
00:10:39,519 --> 00:10:43,199
there, but at some point you're going to

313
00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:44,400
say what comes out of the egg is a

314
00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:48,440
chicken.

315
00:10:44,399 --> 00:10:49,840
And but that's a that's a genetic

316
00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:52,040
um

317
00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:54,360
alteration from the previous generation.

318
00:10:52,039 --> 00:10:56,279
But there never was a moment when

319
00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:58,080
a bird that was not a chicken gave rise

320
00:10:56,279 --> 00:11:00,639
to a chicken. It was never was it never

321
00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:01,680
course. So, this is a very compressed

322
00:11:00,639 --> 00:11:03,279
uh it's a shorthand

323
00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:05,000
Yes. for what you just said with the

324
00:11:03,279 --> 00:11:06,039
book of your ancestors

325
00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,720
going back to the fish.

326
00:11:06,039 --> 00:11:10,000
Yes. I I mean, I I once had a letter

327
00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:12,120
from a a lawyer who said um roughly

328
00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:14,320
speaking, you evolution can't be true

329
00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:16,799
because it's because a

330
00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:18,600
a species is defined as

331
00:11:16,799 --> 00:11:19,959
members can always interbreed with each

332
00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:22,200
other and you can't imagine that there

333
00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:23,839
was a time when child generation was

334
00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:26,040
incapable of breeding with the previous

335
00:11:23,839 --> 00:11:28,040
generation. Of course, couldn't. But he

336
00:11:26,039 --> 00:11:29,639
thought that meant that

337
00:11:28,039 --> 00:11:30,559
somehow evolution was invalid. He

338
00:11:29,639 --> 00:11:32,000
couldn't grasp that

339
00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:34,519
that everything was specially created.

340
00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:36,759
Yeah. Ev- everything is it it's a

341
00:11:34,519 --> 00:11:39,759
gradual process all the way through and

342
00:11:36,759 --> 00:11:42,480
and and as you step back through your

343
00:11:39,759 --> 00:11:43,879
ancestors, they become slightly less

344
00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,879
like a human, slightly less like a

345
00:11:43,879 --> 00:11:48,000
human, but you never notice it as as you

346
00:11:45,879 --> 00:11:49,759
walk past them if you imagine I want to

347
00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:52,200
see a fish.

348
00:11:49,759 --> 00:11:53,838
It's just funny. So, you skip ahead and

349
00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:56,400
there's a fish. You say that's my

350
00:11:53,839 --> 00:11:58,160
parent. Yes. That's Yes.

351
00:11:56,399 --> 00:11:59,279
It's a little freaky for people. You got

352
00:11:58,159 --> 00:12:01,000
to You got to appreciate

353
00:11:59,279 --> 00:12:02,879
you walk along the generations, you'd

354
00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:05,120
never see you'd never see them them

355
00:12:02,879 --> 00:12:07,039
getting more fish-like. It'd just be

356
00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:08,919
so so gradual, you'd never notice it.

357
00:12:07,039 --> 00:12:09,919
Cuz generations are only 30, 40 years

358
00:12:08,919 --> 00:12:13,159
and we're talking billions.

359
00:12:09,919 --> 00:12:15,079
Yes, that's right. You needed deep time

360
00:12:13,159 --> 00:12:17,679
for evolution to do what it needed to

361
00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:19,680
do. Even in the 19th century, my people,

362
00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:22,838
the most we were going to give you as a

363
00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:25,799
biologist or even the geologist was 10

364
00:12:22,839 --> 00:12:28,320
million years, 20 million at tops. We

365
00:12:25,799 --> 00:12:30,240
didn't know about energy contained

366
00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:32,000
inside the nucleus of the atom yet,

367
00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,519
nuclear energy, which is how the sun

368
00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,879
makes fuel. We didn't know that at the

369
00:12:33,519 --> 00:12:37,759
time. So, the best we could do was say

370
00:12:35,879 --> 00:12:40,399
it was a lump of coal. Darwin's son

371
00:12:37,759 --> 00:12:42,519
George was Darwin's son George was one

372
00:12:40,399 --> 00:12:44,319
of the people who pointed out eventually

373
00:12:42,519 --> 00:12:47,199
that nuclear energy um could do the

374
00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:49,240
trick. Oh. My little p- Okay, thank

375
00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:51,440
thank him for him.

376
00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:53,320
Which of the Darwins explained tides for

377
00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:53,920
the first time? Probably George. I I'm

378
00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:56,400
not sure.

379
00:12:53,919 --> 00:12:59,360
I think it was a Darwin and Newton and

380
00:12:56,399 --> 00:13:00,879
Galileo did not understand tide. It was

381
00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:01,639
even though they had all the gravity

382
00:13:00,879 --> 00:13:02,080
necessary

383
00:13:01,639 --> 00:13:03,919
Is that right?

384
00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:07,080
account for it. It's there's a subtle

385
00:13:03,919 --> 00:13:09,079
point with tides where if you look at

386
00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:10,440
any textbook,

387
00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,960
any textbook,

388
00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:14,880
it'll have like the moon

389
00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:16,000
and Earth and it'll have a tidal bulge

390
00:13:14,879 --> 00:13:17,000
pointing towards the moon.

391
00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:19,399
Yes, that's wrong.

392
00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:20,839
It's wrong. It doesn't It the moon would

393
00:13:19,399 --> 00:13:22,720
want that to happen, Yeah. But that's

394
00:13:20,839 --> 00:13:25,360
not how it is. Yes. The tidal bulge is

395
00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:25,920
in advance of the moon in its orbit.

396
00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,519
Yes.

397
00:13:25,919 --> 00:13:30,759
Okay. And that's Earth's rotation

398
00:13:28,519 --> 00:13:32,120
pushing the tides ahead of the moon. And

399
00:13:30,759 --> 00:13:34,240
it's that interaction that has

400
00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:36,320
remarkable consequences. The moon is

401
00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:38,639
slowing down Earth's rotation.

402
00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:40,600
And Earth already slowed down the moon's

403
00:13:38,639 --> 00:13:41,759
rotation. So, it's tidally locked to us.

404
00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:43,519
They'll one day be tidally locked.

405
00:13:41,759 --> 00:13:45,399
We'll be double tidally locked. And when

406
00:13:43,519 --> 00:13:47,159
that happens, then the tides will line

407
00:13:45,399 --> 00:13:48,879
up cuz we're not be pushing it ahead of

408
00:13:47,159 --> 00:13:50,159
the moon. So, that had to somebody had

409
00:13:48,879 --> 00:13:51,960
to figure all that out. So, that's

410
00:13:50,159 --> 00:13:54,120
another Darwin. Thank Thank you for your

411
00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:56,000
Darwins.

412
00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:58,519
New developments and discoveries are

413
00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:00,559
happening every single day. So, keeping

414
00:13:58,519 --> 00:14:03,159
up with science and the world can be

415
00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:05,319
difficult for anyone. Misinformation

416
00:14:03,159 --> 00:14:07,879
spreads online at the speed of light and

417
00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:11,000
trusted news outlets report on the same

418
00:14:07,879 --> 00:14:12,159
story differently. So, how do we find

419
00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:14,639
the truth?

420
00:14:12,159 --> 00:14:17,199
As science enthusiasts, we know how

421
00:14:14,639 --> 00:14:19,039
important it is to rely on research,

422
00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:21,120
data, and putting theories through

423
00:14:19,039 --> 00:14:24,199
endless testing before coming to any

424
00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:26,078
conclusion. Well, our news consumption

425
00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:29,000
shouldn't be any different. And with the

426
00:14:26,078 --> 00:14:30,838
help of our partners at Ground News, you

427
00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,759
can take the same approach and be

428
00:14:30,839 --> 00:14:35,640
guaranteed to receive a fully

429
00:14:32,759 --> 00:14:38,559
comprehensive and balanced viewpoint on

430
00:14:35,639 --> 00:14:41,799
the news and hot topics of the day.

431
00:14:38,559 --> 00:14:44,799
Ground News was founded by a former NASA

432
00:14:41,799 --> 00:14:46,919
engineer. So, you know you can find your

433
00:14:44,799 --> 00:14:49,719
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434
00:14:46,919 --> 00:14:52,439
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435
00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:55,160
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00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:57,680
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437
00:14:55,159 --> 00:15:00,439
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438
00:14:57,679 --> 00:15:03,078
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439
00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:06,320
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440
00:15:03,078 --> 00:15:08,958
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441
00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:11,240
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00:15:08,958 --> 00:15:14,319
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443
00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:16,839
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444
00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:19,440
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445
00:15:16,839 --> 00:15:21,920
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446
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447
00:15:21,919 --> 00:15:27,039
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448
00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:29,679
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449
00:15:27,039 --> 00:15:32,679
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450
00:15:29,679 --> 00:15:35,199
verify accuracy. So, if you want to be a

451
00:15:32,679 --> 00:15:37,879
critical thinker and you desire a

452
00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:39,839
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453
00:15:37,879 --> 00:15:42,559
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454
00:15:39,839 --> 00:15:45,000
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455
00:15:42,559 --> 00:15:47,799
to stay fully informed on the latest in

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459
00:15:54,279 --> 00:15:59,600
all their features. All right. Let's get

460
00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:01,959
back to the show. You came up with the

461
00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,600
word meme. I know it was you. That was

462
00:16:01,958 --> 00:16:04,359
in the Selfish Gene.

463
00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:06,480
That was in the Selfish Gene. Yes. You

464
00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:09,600
invented the word and people long

465
00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:10,920
forgot. Tell me the authentic definition

466
00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:11,600
of meme cuz that's not how anybody's

467
00:16:10,919 --> 00:16:13,719
using it today.

468
00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:15,759
Units of cultural inheritance and the

469
00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:18,360
analog of the gene in in cultural

470
00:16:15,759 --> 00:16:20,919
inheritance. Okay, so this is this is

471
00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:24,560
communicated from one person to another

472
00:16:20,919 --> 00:16:25,559
Yes. and certain memes have higher

473
00:16:24,559 --> 00:16:28,319
communicability.

474
00:16:25,559 --> 00:16:29,799
I I really wanted to to say that because

475
00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,839
the whole book had been about the gene

476
00:16:29,799 --> 00:16:32,919
as the unit of selection. That's how I I

477
00:16:31,839 --> 00:16:33,959
described it to you when you asked me

478
00:16:32,919 --> 00:16:35,719
earlier.

479
00:16:33,958 --> 00:16:38,599
Um it didn't have to be genes. It could

480
00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,879
be anything that is self-replicating.

481
00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:43,200
And nowadays, I would have used a

482
00:16:39,879 --> 00:16:45,078
computer virus as as my Mm. analogy

483
00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:48,160
probably for the gene. Mhm. But in those

484
00:16:45,078 --> 00:16:49,399
days, computer viruses, well,

485
00:16:48,159 --> 00:16:50,838
maybe they'd been invented. I didn't

486
00:16:49,399 --> 00:16:52,958
know about them anyway.

487
00:16:50,839 --> 00:16:55,160
Um so, I used the units of cultural

488
00:16:52,958 --> 00:16:58,039
inheritance. It's something like a

489
00:16:55,159 --> 00:16:59,439
um So, M is M is for memory, so a memory

490
00:16:58,039 --> 00:17:00,199
gene. It's a portmanteau.

491
00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:01,959
it's it's

492
00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:05,199
it's it's that's right. It's it comes

493
00:17:01,958 --> 00:17:07,198
from the same root as as memory. Okay.

494
00:17:05,199 --> 00:17:09,839
So, if I say something, we have

495
00:17:07,199 --> 00:17:12,120
alligators in the New York City subway.

496
00:17:09,838 --> 00:17:15,639
Yes. If that spreads, if that if that

497
00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:17,799
spreads because it's a a repeatable lie

498
00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,839
or or or even might be true. Whatever it

499
00:17:17,799 --> 00:17:19,759
is. If if it spreads,

500
00:17:18,838 --> 00:17:19,919
Whatever it is, doesn't matter what it

501
00:17:19,759 --> 00:17:21,439
is.

502
00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,480
doesn't matter. If it spreads, then it's

503
00:17:21,439 --> 00:17:25,040
a successful meme.

504
00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,480
Because it's so interesting to me, I

505
00:17:25,039 --> 00:17:28,960
Yeah. have to tell someone else.

506
00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:31,920
Exactly. Exactly. We love to tell

507
00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:34,240
stories which surprise people or amuse

508
00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:36,320
people, whether or not they're true.

509
00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,960
So, nowadays, it's just an image of

510
00:17:36,319 --> 00:17:39,159
something kind of cool, you know.

511
00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:41,120
I'm really sorry about that.

512
00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:43,560
Yeah. No, no, no, that's not your fault.

513
00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:45,879
No. But it it's you've contributed to

514
00:17:43,559 --> 00:17:47,000
our culture. So, the best of the memes

515
00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,000
are the ones that are spread around the

516
00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,960
most. That's

517
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:53,079
Yes. It's a meme of me doing this.

518
00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,160
Okay. Yes. Like I think what is it

519
00:17:53,079 --> 00:17:57,480
called?

520
00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:59,519
Watch out, you got a badass over here. I

521
00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:01,799
never said that. Okay. And there is a

522
00:17:59,519 --> 00:18:02,720
picture of me doing this.

523
00:18:01,799 --> 00:18:03,678
Uh

524
00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:07,519
But but it spreads.

525
00:18:03,679 --> 00:18:10,840
It spread and there are people in South

526
00:18:07,519 --> 00:18:12,440
America who saw me in the street. They

527
00:18:10,839 --> 00:18:14,359
were they were tourists. They said, "We

528
00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:16,480
know you from the meme." This is like 10

529
00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:18,519
years ago or something. I said,

530
00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:21,160
"The meme? Really? That's not even me.

531
00:18:18,519 --> 00:18:23,440
Why did that So, somehow that spread. I

532
00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:25,240
don't have any understanding of it. I'll

533
00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,679
tell you mine. John Cleese told me about

534
00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,359
that. He was What is that?

535
00:18:26,679 --> 00:18:30,000
Well, you you you do you remember the

536
00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:31,559
Fawlty Towers and and Yes.

537
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,039
Yes. Okay. Well, there's there's an

538
00:18:31,559 --> 00:18:34,960
episode where the where some Germans

539
00:18:33,039 --> 00:18:36,599
visit visit the hotel.

540
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:38,120
And and um

541
00:18:36,599 --> 00:18:40,079
Ba- Basil Fawlty is going, "Don't

542
00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:41,719
mention the war. Don't don't mention the

543
00:18:40,079 --> 00:18:43,519
war." And of course, he doesn't does

544
00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,240
mention it. Anyway, he was in I think it

545
00:18:43,519 --> 00:18:46,679
was Munich Airport

546
00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:48,159
and he was going up the escalator and

547
00:18:46,679 --> 00:18:49,919
there was a man way over there and going

548
00:18:48,159 --> 00:18:51,679
down the escalator

549
00:18:49,919 --> 00:18:53,600
ri- right across the hall and he

550
00:18:51,679 --> 00:18:56,440
recognized him and he shouted, "Don't

551
00:18:53,599 --> 00:18:57,959
mention the war!"

552
00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:00,559
Okay.

553
00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:01,919
So, that meme is spreading in Germany.

554
00:19:00,559 --> 00:19:04,918
So, that's the Selfish Gene. So, let's

555
00:19:01,919 --> 00:19:07,240
move ahead here. The Blind Watchmaker.

556
00:19:04,919 --> 00:19:08,400
Oh, that's that's my favorite book of

557
00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:11,079
yours, if I may.

558
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:13,640
okay. Um well, the watchmaker comes from

559
00:19:11,079 --> 00:19:15,439
William Paley, who the theologian

560
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:17,080
said that there must be a god because if

561
00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:19,120
you find a watch,

562
00:19:17,079 --> 00:19:21,079
you pick out you pick up the watch. He's

563
00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:22,359
crossing a heath, he said. You open it

564
00:19:21,079 --> 00:19:24,439
up.

565
00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:25,918
Great big pocket watch in those days.

566
00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:26,720
Pocket watches were watches in those

567
00:19:25,919 --> 00:19:27,919
days.

568
00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,960
And um

569
00:19:27,919 --> 00:19:31,320
uh and you see all the cogwheels and

570
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,319
springs and things. It had to have a

571
00:19:31,319 --> 00:19:36,319
designer, of course it did. And so, how

572
00:19:33,319 --> 00:19:39,200
much more would you say that of an eye

573
00:19:36,319 --> 00:19:41,079
or a a knee joint or anything living.

574
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:43,279
So, that that's the Paley watchmaker

575
00:19:41,079 --> 00:19:44,599
argument. Natural selection is the blind

576
00:19:43,279 --> 00:19:46,639
watchmaker.

577
00:19:44,599 --> 00:19:48,319
It produces results that are like

578
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:50,240
watches. They're beautifully designed.

579
00:19:48,319 --> 00:19:52,119
Eyes are beautifully designed.

580
00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,200
Certain flaws, but they're are obviously

581
00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:54,919
designed.

582
00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,519
And they come about not through any

583
00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,279
design process, not through any

584
00:19:56,519 --> 00:20:00,519
deliberate design, but through the blind

585
00:19:58,279 --> 00:20:02,720
watchmaker, which is natural selection.

586
00:20:00,519 --> 00:20:04,240
So, it's a So, that's hard for people to

587
00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,360
accept, especially if they're deeply

588
00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:06,279
religious. Yes.

589
00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:06,879
Because they have they already have an

590
00:20:06,279 --> 00:20:07,200
account.

591
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:08,960
Yes.

592
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:12,000
Now, you're saying one of the acts of

593
00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:13,440
their God is some random force operating

594
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,480
He didn't have to be there at all. He

595
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,160
didn't have to be there at all.

596
00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:19,400
Yes. And I think where people get

597
00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:22,240
confused, and even some of our people

598
00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:24,519
have made this mistake. Uh Fred Hoyle,

599
00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:29,039
who was the architect of the steady

600
00:20:24,519 --> 00:20:32,039
state universe, who pejoratively

601
00:20:29,039 --> 00:20:33,720
invented the name Big Bang to describe

602
00:20:32,039 --> 00:20:36,279
the universe beginning in one point. He

603
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:39,759
said that in a pejorative way. He wanted

604
00:20:36,279 --> 00:20:41,680
the universe to be a steady state. Um he

605
00:20:39,759 --> 00:20:44,640
did a calculation

606
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:46,560
for how you would get an eye,

607
00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,600
a fully functioning eye, and how long

608
00:20:46,559 --> 00:20:49,000
that would take. And it was some

609
00:20:47,599 --> 00:20:51,359
impossibly,

610
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:54,079
you know, 10 to the some very high power

611
00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:55,519
number of years, given the rate at which

612
00:20:54,079 --> 00:20:59,559
you have

613
00:20:55,519 --> 00:21:02,519
um a defects in a in a in a in a genome.

614
00:20:59,559 --> 00:21:04,839
And what Correct me if I'm wrong.

615
00:21:02,519 --> 00:21:06,440
The rebuttal to that is

616
00:21:04,839 --> 00:21:07,519
natural selection is not completely

617
00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,440
random.

618
00:21:07,519 --> 00:21:10,599
Well, no. That's right. It Actually, it

619
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,519
wasn't an eye. It was a it was a

620
00:21:10,599 --> 00:21:14,319
hemoglobin molecule, but it's the it's

621
00:21:12,519 --> 00:21:16,799
the same argument anyways. What he

622
00:21:14,319 --> 00:21:19,000
overlooked was that it doesn't happen

623
00:21:16,799 --> 00:21:20,159
all in one go. He he imagined all the

624
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,799
bits

625
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,800
coming together

626
00:21:21,799 --> 00:21:25,000
at random. Um every

627
00:21:23,799 --> 00:21:26,319
And that's one case that doesn't work,

628
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,519
and it has another random thing that

629
00:21:26,319 --> 00:21:29,639
doesn't work, and you do that forever.

630
00:21:28,519 --> 00:21:32,279
If you do that forever, of course you

631
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:33,560
won't but what what you need is Let's

632
00:21:32,279 --> 00:21:36,440
Let's use the eye, even though he

633
00:21:33,559 --> 00:21:38,000
didn't. Um you need a slightly less good

634
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,440
eye, and then a slightly less good eye,

635
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,519
and a slightly less good eye. And you

636
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:43,160
start with just a

637
00:21:41,519 --> 00:21:46,079
uh a sheet of

638
00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:48,040
light-sensitive cells, which just detect

639
00:21:46,079 --> 00:21:49,319
whether it's light or dark. That's

640
00:21:48,039 --> 00:21:50,440
useful. It's not like

641
00:21:49,319 --> 00:21:52,319
better than nothing. It's better than

642
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,559
not having it. You can tell when when

643
00:21:52,319 --> 00:21:55,639
it's night or day, you can tell whether

644
00:21:53,559 --> 00:21:58,480
there's a predator flying overhead. And

645
00:21:55,640 --> 00:22:00,520
then, if you have a um

646
00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:02,480
a slightly cup-shaped If you if you if

647
00:22:00,519 --> 00:22:04,119
you bend that retina from a flat thing

648
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:06,440
into a slight cup,

649
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:08,519
then if it's coming from that direction,

650
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,960
it hits that side of of the We are on

651
00:22:08,519 --> 00:22:10,839
video, aren't we? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

652
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,679
Uh-huh.

653
00:22:10,839 --> 00:22:14,119
Uh and so, you got It's not an image,

654
00:22:12,679 --> 00:22:15,960
but it but it gives a slight

655
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:18,159
directionality.

656
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:20,200
And then and you close up, and you start

657
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:22,080
to get a pinhole camera.

658
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:24,200
Um it's a very crude and out of focus,

659
00:22:22,079 --> 00:22:26,199
but it's sort of an image. And then, you

660
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:28,720
need a little bit of

661
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:30,799
transparent gunk in there. It's not a

662
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:33,519
proper lens, but it does something like

663
00:22:30,799 --> 00:22:35,319
a lens. And all these stages,

664
00:22:33,519 --> 00:22:37,480
one by one, they step by step, they

665
00:22:35,319 --> 00:22:39,399
incrementally improve.

666
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:41,839
And every improvement is the new

667
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,360
starting place for the variations at

668
00:22:41,839 --> 00:22:43,359
that generation.

669
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:43,519
right. And then and then you get

670
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:44,678
improvement.

671
00:22:43,519 --> 00:22:45,200
Cuz every generation is not starting

672
00:22:44,679 --> 00:22:46,080
from zero.

673
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,440
That's right. Yes.

674
00:22:46,079 --> 00:22:48,839
So, the blind watchmaker I I just

675
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,039
thought that was brilliantly written,

676
00:22:48,839 --> 00:22:53,399
and

677
00:22:50,039 --> 00:22:54,960
it was my benchmark for

678
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:57,720
if I were to ever write a book for the

679
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:59,840
public, I want to be this articulate.

680
00:22:57,720 --> 00:22:59,960
Oh, wow. That's highly complimentary.

681
00:22:59,839 --> 00:23:02,439
Thank you for that.

682
00:22:59,960 --> 00:23:03,160
just want you to know I just want you to

683
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:03,960
know that.

684
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:07,000
Thank you for that.

685
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:08,559
Okay. Let Let the record show.

686
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,400
Climbing Mount Improbable. Well, that's

687
00:23:08,559 --> 00:23:11,079
what we've just been talking about. Um

688
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,280
uh

689
00:23:11,079 --> 00:23:13,519
Mount Improbable is Just that metaphor.

690
00:23:13,279 --> 00:23:15,359
Describe it.

691
00:23:13,519 --> 00:23:18,160
a It's a metaphor where you've got a a

692
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:19,759
mountain with a sheer cliff, a

693
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:22,480
vertical cliff.

694
00:23:19,759 --> 00:23:24,759
And on the top of the cliff is an eye.

695
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:27,319
And to produce the eye in the Fred Hoyle

696
00:23:24,759 --> 00:23:28,599
manner would be to leap from the bottom

697
00:23:27,319 --> 00:23:29,439
of the cliff to the top in one go.

698
00:23:28,599 --> 00:23:31,000
one go.

699
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,759
You cannot do do it, but you go around

700
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:35,119
the other side of the mountain, and you

701
00:23:32,759 --> 00:23:37,599
find a nice gentle slope. And so, you

702
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:39,439
just climb.

703
00:23:37,599 --> 00:23:43,319
Step by step, and you and you get reach

704
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:45,799
the summit. Okay. So, so if you think it

705
00:23:43,319 --> 00:23:47,039
got there in one fell swoop, there's no

706
00:23:45,799 --> 00:23:48,319
Of course, you're going to invent a God,

707
00:23:47,039 --> 00:23:50,920
cuz what what

708
00:23:48,319 --> 00:23:51,399
But not imagining that there's another

709
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,240
way,

710
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:56,240
Yes. you're stuck in one

711
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,039
religious philosophy versus any other

712
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:57,640
philosophy.

713
00:23:57,039 --> 00:23:58,678
Yes.

714
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:02,400
Okay.

715
00:23:58,679 --> 00:24:03,960
All right. Got that. And uh this one

716
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,240
much was written about Unweaving the

717
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:08,960
Rainbow. So, tell me about that. Okay.

718
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:11,160
Um That was what to 1998 now. That That

719
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,360
comes from Keats.

720
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,279
Uh I did not know that.

721
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,678
Keats complained about Newton spoiling

722
00:24:14,279 --> 00:24:18,160
all the poetry of the rainbow by

723
00:24:15,679 --> 00:24:19,640
explaining it. And so, my my point was

724
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,840
the point which you've made often enough

725
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:24,120
that actually, there's far more poetry

726
00:24:21,839 --> 00:24:26,000
in really understanding the spectrum.

727
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:27,639
So, I I Did I tell you this? Do you

728
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,200
remember there was this It was on

729
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:31,480
YouTube. There was this called Double

730
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:33,279
Rainbow Guy. Have you ever seen this?

731
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:35,120
No. Double rainbow. You got You should

732
00:24:33,279 --> 00:24:37,039
check it out. Okay, this is now back

733
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:39,359
when social media was just people

734
00:24:37,039 --> 00:24:41,440
posting things. It wasn't the cesspool

735
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:43,359
that it is today. So, he was hiking

736
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,240
somewhere, there's some guy back when

737
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:47,479
you had you needed a camcorder to take

738
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,920
videos, not a cell phone. He's hiking in

739
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,319
the What is it? Sierra Madre? I don't

740
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:53,039
remember where.

741
00:24:50,319 --> 00:24:55,599
And he's You hear him sort of narrating

742
00:24:53,039 --> 00:24:58,119
his Oh, that's a nice cliff, huh? Then

743
00:24:55,599 --> 00:24:59,719
he turns a corner, and he says,

744
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:01,279
Oh!

745
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:04,600
A rainbow!

746
00:25:01,279 --> 00:25:07,480
Oh my gosh! What What could it mean? Oh,

747
00:25:04,599 --> 00:25:10,079
a double rainbow! Oh my gosh! And he's

748
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:12,360
tearing You don't see him, but you can

749
00:25:10,079 --> 00:25:14,720
easily interpret just his emotions, his

750
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:17,919
breath. And then he goes prostrate to

751
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:19,720
the ground. Yes. And and he he can't

752
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:22,600
contain himself.

753
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:25,160
What does it mean? This is a sign. And

754
00:25:22,599 --> 00:25:27,000
so, I I felt bad doing this.

755
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,519
You might be proud of me, but I felt bad

756
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:31,279
doing this. I

757
00:25:28,519 --> 00:25:35,679
I tweeted. I put a link to this

758
00:25:31,279 --> 00:25:37,519
to this video, and I said, This is how

759
00:25:35,679 --> 00:25:39,320
you behave

760
00:25:37,519 --> 00:25:41,119
if you've never studied physics.

761
00:25:39,319 --> 00:25:43,039
Yes.

762
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:45,399
But I thought that was kind of mean.

763
00:25:43,039 --> 00:25:47,759
He's having his moment. Well, in a way,

764
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,720
that's what Keats was doing.

765
00:25:47,759 --> 00:25:51,079
To Newton. Yes, that's right. But

766
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,960
anyway, I can capital story in the

767
00:25:51,079 --> 00:25:55,119
opposite direction. I read a story about

768
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:57,559
a woman in California.

769
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:59,279
She had a a lawn sprinkler,

770
00:25:57,559 --> 00:26:01,319
and she saw a rainbow in the lawn

771
00:25:59,279 --> 00:26:04,799
sprinkler, and she said, "What are they

772
00:26:01,319 --> 00:26:04,799
doing to our water supply?"

773
00:26:06,519 --> 00:26:11,799
That's funny.

774
00:26:08,519 --> 00:26:13,400
Oh my gosh! So, I did not know that that

775
00:26:11,799 --> 00:26:14,559
that Keats had that to say about Newton,

776
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,280
cuz Newton

777
00:26:14,559 --> 00:26:18,639
yeah, he decoded the rainbow. And that

778
00:26:16,279 --> 00:26:21,200
was what That was his thing. One of his

779
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:23,040
things. Uh by the way, you mentioned

780
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:26,000
beautiful the eye is, even with some

781
00:26:23,039 --> 00:26:27,839
flaws. As an astrophysicist,

782
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:30,400
when I would learn this very early, when

783
00:26:27,839 --> 00:26:32,399
I took classes here, actually, when I

784
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,800
was in middle school at the Hayden

785
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,360
Planetarium, uh that's when I learned

786
00:26:34,799 --> 00:26:37,519
about the entire electromagnetic

787
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:38,879
spectrum.

788
00:26:37,519 --> 00:26:40,759
And

789
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:44,160
that the visible part of the spectrum is

790
00:26:40,759 --> 00:26:44,480
tiny. It's not even a full octave That's

791
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:48,040
right.

792
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:50,559
of the of what's out there. And then, I

793
00:26:48,039 --> 00:26:53,639
was just disappointed with my sight. I

794
00:26:50,559 --> 00:26:56,039
said, "Is this the best nature can get?

795
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,640
Is this You know, you know, let me go

796
00:26:56,039 --> 00:26:59,879
back in line and see what else is

797
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:01,720
there." And later on in Star Trek: The

798
00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:04,320
Next Generation, there'd be a character

799
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:07,799
called Geordi. He had a VISOR,

800
00:27:04,319 --> 00:27:09,279
V I S O R, which was an acronym, Visual

801
00:27:07,799 --> 00:27:14,079
Instrument

802
00:27:09,279 --> 00:27:15,289
Sight Organ Replacement. And so, early

803
00:27:14,079 --> 00:27:16,879
acronym days.

804
00:27:15,289 --> 00:27:20,319
[Music]

805
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:22,400
So, yeah, I'd be intrigued by what the

806
00:27:20,319 --> 00:27:24,639
world would look like that way. For

807
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:26,759
example, if you're Someone's calling you

808
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:29,080
on your on your cell phone,

809
00:27:26,759 --> 00:27:30,279
that would be like radiant microwaves

810
00:27:29,079 --> 00:27:32,519
while that's happening. That'd be just

811
00:27:30,279 --> 00:27:34,519
kind of cool. You know, or if you go by

812
00:27:32,519 --> 00:27:36,400
the the countryside, and you see uh

813
00:27:34,519 --> 00:27:38,400
radio towers, they would be the

814
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,080
brightest things on the horizon. And now

815
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,960
they're just hunks of metal. And so,

816
00:27:40,079 --> 00:27:43,359
they get him to look at scenes that

817
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,799
they're coming upon. What's high in

818
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:47,479
x-rays, it's high in this, it's high in

819
00:27:44,799 --> 00:27:49,359
that. And then I worried that if you

820
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:51,960
could see all bands of light, that would

821
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:54,079
be very visually noisy, wouldn't it?

822
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:56,600
Yes. I mean, if you see right through to

823
00:27:54,079 --> 00:27:57,720
radio waves, you wouldn't I mean, Well,

824
00:27:56,599 --> 00:27:58,839
then everything becomes transparent.

825
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,200
wavelengths. Yes.

826
00:27:58,839 --> 00:28:00,678
Then then this There are no walls in

827
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,000
this office.

828
00:28:00,679 --> 00:28:05,320
won't see things. That's right. You have

829
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:07,079
coined this term, and we've even

830
00:28:05,319 --> 00:28:09,919
appeared on stage together under this

831
00:28:07,079 --> 00:28:12,359
title, The Poetry of Reality.

832
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:14,920
And I'm all in.

833
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:17,000
But if you're actually a poet, surely

834
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:19,120
there are parts of reality that are best

835
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:21,559
expressed by a poet. Would you agree? I

836
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:24,158
suppose so. I've never quite understood

837
00:28:21,559 --> 00:28:25,599
I mean, I I I don't write verse.

838
00:28:24,159 --> 00:28:29,280
Um but

839
00:28:25,599 --> 00:28:32,799
I suppose, like you, I try to

840
00:28:29,279 --> 00:28:33,039
evoke emotion at the same time as

841
00:28:32,799 --> 00:28:34,359
science.

842
00:28:33,039 --> 00:28:35,759
Otherwise, it's just a Wiki page.

843
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,918
Yes, that's right.

844
00:28:35,759 --> 00:28:39,960
And um I'm not not entirely clear what

845
00:28:37,919 --> 00:28:41,440
what what you mean by poetic. I sort of

846
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,679
feel intuitively I know what it means,

847
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,400
but I can't

848
00:28:42,679 --> 00:28:47,800
quite put it into words. Maybe that's no

849
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:50,200
accident. Um but um

850
00:28:47,799 --> 00:28:52,158
Yes, I I

851
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:54,080
defend in my own mind the idea that

852
00:28:52,159 --> 00:28:57,159
science is the poetry

853
00:28:54,079 --> 00:28:59,079
of of reality. It makes me feel poetic.

854
00:28:57,159 --> 00:29:00,679
And I think it makes you feel poetic.

855
00:28:59,079 --> 00:29:02,918
So, it might be self-serving on that

856
00:29:00,679 --> 00:29:05,040
level. The what would matter if others

857
00:29:02,919 --> 00:29:07,400
can be convinced of the same.

858
00:29:05,039 --> 00:29:09,480
Cuz otherwise, it's just a self-licking

859
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,519
ice cream cone, That's right. And if But

860
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:14,079
if you're if you're skilled in writing,

861
00:29:11,519 --> 00:29:15,000
I think you can bring others with you.

862
00:29:14,079 --> 00:29:17,678
For me,

863
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:20,039
poetry, art more broadly,

864
00:29:17,679 --> 00:29:22,000
best serves us

865
00:29:20,039 --> 00:29:24,678
when it highlights something you might

866
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:26,319
have otherwise missed, or never noticed.

867
00:29:24,679 --> 00:29:29,240
It's a good way to put it. My best

868
00:29:26,319 --> 00:29:32,879
example of that was July 21st, 22nd, was

869
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:34,120
it? After we landed on the moon in 1969,

870
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,880
The New York Times had a special

871
00:29:34,119 --> 00:29:37,678
section.

872
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,400
People reacting to the fact that we

873
00:29:37,679 --> 00:29:42,320
walked on the moon. And there were these

874
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:44,400
all these famous poets of the day.

875
00:29:42,319 --> 00:29:47,079
There was Archibald MacLeish, and you

876
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:50,000
know, people who who who carried the

877
00:29:47,079 --> 00:29:51,319
soul of creative expression

878
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:55,559
in the day.

879
00:29:51,319 --> 00:29:57,879
And I read these poems. They were awful.

880
00:29:55,559 --> 00:30:00,240
They're We have pierced the sky and

881
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,840
touched the sky. And I'm thinking

882
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,319
none of this

883
00:30:01,839 --> 00:30:04,959
is greater

884
00:30:03,319 --> 00:30:06,679
than the act of walking on the moon

885
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,440
itself.

886
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,680
So, maybe I don't need artists to

887
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:12,640
interpret that for me. Maybe I need them

888
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:16,560
to interpret the tree that I'm walking

889
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:17,759
by. Then you get Joyce Kilmer's poem The

890
00:30:16,559 --> 00:30:19,720
Tree.

891
00:30:17,759 --> 00:30:20,759
I will never see something as lovely as

892
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,559
a tree.

893
00:30:20,759 --> 00:30:24,480
It arms pressed to the sky. It There's

894
00:30:23,559 --> 00:30:27,119
that

895
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:28,360
in American poetry, Henry Wadsworth

896
00:30:27,119 --> 00:30:30,119
Longfellow,

897
00:30:28,359 --> 00:30:32,279
uh who wrote The Midnight Ride of Paul

898
00:30:30,119 --> 00:30:34,359
Revere. That might not be heralded as

899
00:30:32,279 --> 00:30:38,599
great poetry, but we all know it here in

900
00:30:34,359 --> 00:30:41,119
America. And that's a poem about a guy

901
00:30:38,599 --> 00:30:42,279
who told other people that the enemy was

902
00:30:41,119 --> 00:30:45,439
coming.

903
00:30:42,279 --> 00:30:47,960
Is that an important person?

904
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,680
No. Yet, we all know that person's name

905
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:52,079
because it's a poem about him. You do

906
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,920
not know that corresponding person for

907
00:30:52,079 --> 00:30:55,720
any other war that has ever been fought

908
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,560
in the history of the world.

909
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,319
The person who told other people that

910
00:30:57,559 --> 00:31:00,960
the enemy was coming. That is not a

911
00:30:59,319 --> 00:31:02,279
person, but for us it is cuz it was a

912
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,000
poem about him.

913
00:31:02,279 --> 00:31:07,319
It was somebody who would otherwise go

914
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:09,160
forgotten. So, for me, art is best when

915
00:31:07,319 --> 00:31:10,639
it captures that. I don't need I don't

916
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:13,200
need artists saying, "Oh, I saw this

917
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:15,080
Hubble photo. Here's my painting of that

918
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,279
Hubble photo."

919
00:31:15,079 --> 00:31:17,720
I don't need that cuz I got the Hubble

920
00:31:16,279 --> 00:31:19,799
photo.

921
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,759
Give me a point of view that science

922
00:31:19,799 --> 00:31:23,399
does not give me. Then we can hang out

923
00:31:21,759 --> 00:31:25,359
together in the sandbox. That's how I

924
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:27,360
feel about it. The tree poem you

925
00:31:25,359 --> 00:31:28,279
mentioned, that was a religious poem. I

926
00:31:27,359 --> 00:31:28,319
I mean,

927
00:31:28,279 --> 00:31:29,559
only God could make a tree.

928
00:31:28,319 --> 00:31:31,599
at the end, but no, that come come The

929
00:31:29,559 --> 00:31:33,799
God

930
00:31:31,599 --> 00:31:36,240
was just in the culture. So, is it

931
00:31:33,799 --> 00:31:37,919
religious when you say goodbye when that

932
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,839
draws from God be with you? It's just a

933
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:42,160
cultural expression.

934
00:31:39,839 --> 00:31:43,839
Carl Sagan's chapter headings. They They

935
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,560
inspire me. Just just every single one

936
00:31:43,839 --> 00:31:47,319
of his chapter headings.

937
00:31:44,559 --> 00:31:48,279
Yes. Um His widow, Yes.

938
00:31:47,319 --> 00:31:50,919
Adrienne,

939
00:31:48,279 --> 00:31:53,678
who is highly literate unto herself and

940
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:55,000
co-author of all three Cosmoses, even

941
00:31:53,679 --> 00:31:57,120
the two that I Yes.

942
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:59,200
have had the privilege of hosting. Um

943
00:31:57,119 --> 00:32:01,359
she was a major force in that poetic

944
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:03,279
voice. I just want to give credit where

945
00:32:01,359 --> 00:32:04,959
that's due there. Across the backbone of

946
00:32:03,279 --> 00:32:09,319
night, I mean, that that is a poetic

947
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:10,400
phrase. Um it immediately speaks to me.

948
00:32:09,319 --> 00:32:11,960
Um

949
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:15,360
I see the Milky Way. I'm not sure I'm

950
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:17,720
meant to. Um and and

951
00:32:15,359 --> 00:32:19,678
I guess I try to do something similar.

952
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,960
Mhm. List in some of my books. Hey,

953
00:32:19,679 --> 00:32:25,000
StarTalk fans. I don't know if you know

954
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:28,960
this, but the audio version of the

955
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:31,119
podcast actually posts a week in advance

956
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:34,799
of the video version. And you can get

957
00:32:31,119 --> 00:32:37,719
that in Spotify and Apple Podcast and

958
00:32:34,799 --> 00:32:41,000
most other podcast outlets that are out

959
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:43,519
there. Multiple ways to ingest

960
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:45,000
all that is cosmic on StarTalk.

961
00:32:43,519 --> 00:32:47,000
All right, I'm up to 2004. The

962
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:49,400
Ancestor's Tale.

963
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:51,799
That is a title that reminds me of the

964
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,560
Sagan book Shadows of Forgotten

965
00:32:51,799 --> 00:32:55,599
Ancestors.

966
00:32:52,559 --> 00:32:57,519
Yes. It It kind of feels the same to me.

967
00:32:55,599 --> 00:32:59,559
So, in what happened in Ancestor's Tale?

968
00:32:57,519 --> 00:33:02,400
it's it's it's a reference to Chaucer.

969
00:32:59,559 --> 00:33:03,599
Um and the Canterbury Tales.

970
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:04,600
Um And

971
00:33:03,599 --> 00:33:05,159
But one of his tales was not the

972
00:33:04,599 --> 00:33:05,639
ancestor.

973
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,560
No, no, no.

974
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,920
Oh, you just There's the Miller's Tale

975
00:33:07,559 --> 00:33:10,639
and now there's the Ancestor's Tale.

976
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,279
It's a history of life.

977
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,000
Um but it's going backwards. So, it's in

978
00:33:12,279 --> 00:33:15,920
it's the form of a pilgrimage,

979
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:18,599
Chaucerian pilgrimage going backwards in

980
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:21,240
time. We human pilgrims set off into the

981
00:33:18,599 --> 00:33:22,719
past and we're joined by the chimpanzee

982
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:25,359
pilgrims and then the orangutan and then

983
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:27,360
the gorilla pilgrims

984
00:33:25,359 --> 00:33:28,639
finally get back to the origin of life.

985
00:33:27,359 --> 00:33:30,399
Um so,

986
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,800
it's a way of doing history of life, but

987
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,120
do it backwards because if you do it

988
00:33:31,799 --> 00:33:36,000
forwards,

989
00:33:33,119 --> 00:33:38,639
then you end up with the idea that

990
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:40,200
humans are kind of the the climax, which

991
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,280
you don't want. I mean, that's that's

992
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,920
not a good way of looking at it. So, if

993
00:33:42,279 --> 00:33:45,079
you go backwards,

994
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,519
um then you start

995
00:33:45,079 --> 00:33:47,678
Okay, that's I'm

996
00:33:46,519 --> 00:33:49,879
I was getting on your case, but that's

997
00:33:47,679 --> 00:33:52,440
brilliant. Brilliant. Thanks for deliver

998
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:54,920
I'm going to now read that, okay? Cuz

999
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:57,679
that I missed that one. Uh here's one we

1000
00:33:54,920 --> 00:34:00,440
all saw and know about whether or not we

1001
00:33:57,679 --> 00:34:03,200
read it, The God Delusion. That put you

1002
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:05,400
on a plateau to be identified as one of

1003
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:08,000
the four horsemen. All right.

1004
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:09,639
Okay. Not not a phrase that that

1005
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,280
any of us actually

1006
00:34:09,639 --> 00:34:13,000
It was bestowed upon you? Yes.

1007
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,840
Yeah, so it was Daniel Dennett,

1008
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:17,239
Christopher Hitchens Hitchens, Sam

1009
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:19,760
Harris. Um and both of them are past.

1010
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:22,398
Sam Harris and you. Yes. Okay. The four

1011
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,600
horsemen who have each been quite vocal

1012
00:34:22,398 --> 00:34:25,440
about

1013
00:34:23,599 --> 00:34:26,960
their atheism. Yes. And The God

1014
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:27,440
Delusion, if that's not atheist, I don't

1015
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:28,000
know what is.

1016
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,519
It is, yes.

1017
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:33,358
In the title. Yes. Right. So, we spoke

1018
00:34:30,519 --> 00:34:35,280
about this book before. Didn't you say

1019
00:34:33,358 --> 00:34:38,159
there were religious groups that wanted

1020
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:41,640
people to read it so that they know the

1021
00:34:38,159 --> 00:34:43,960
face of their enemy? Was that I forget.

1022
00:34:41,639 --> 00:34:45,119
It's quite possible. Um

1023
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,280
There are some people who say they were

1024
00:34:45,119 --> 00:34:49,519
converted to religion by it.

1025
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:51,240
Really? I'm not quite sure how they

1026
00:34:49,519 --> 00:34:52,878
managed to get that, but

1027
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:55,279
doesn't say much for my rhetorical

1028
00:34:52,878 --> 00:34:57,039
skills.

1029
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,160
So, is this your single biggest selling

1030
00:34:57,039 --> 00:35:01,199
book, The God Delusion?

1031
00:34:58,159 --> 00:35:03,000
Uh yes, just about, yes. It was equal

1032
00:35:01,199 --> 00:35:05,439
with The Selfish Gene, maybe. I've taken

1033
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:07,280
you to task on the very first day I met

1034
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:09,840
you, and it I think it's worth repeating

1035
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:11,120
here. The first day I ever knew you,

1036
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,559
again, I like I said, I'd read your

1037
00:35:11,119 --> 00:35:15,960
books and yeah yeah I aspired to have

1038
00:35:13,559 --> 00:35:18,880
the vocabulary the command of vocabulary

1039
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:20,960
that you that spills off your plate.

1040
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:23,000
I took you to task in the front of a

1041
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,440
group It was It was one of the uh what's

1042
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,199
the name of that conference? A Beyond

1043
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,079
Belief conference.

1044
00:35:25,199 --> 00:35:28,119
Oh, yes. Which gathered Oh, yes. That's

1045
00:35:27,079 --> 00:35:30,759
right. Which gathered scientists,

1046
00:35:28,119 --> 00:35:32,880
biologists, theologians, philosophers.

1047
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:35,400
Yes. And it was to discuss are we in an

1048
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:37,039
era beyond where belief matters? Yes.

1049
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:39,880
Does belief still matter? So, it was

1050
00:35:37,039 --> 00:35:42,519
quite the juxtaposition of points of

1051
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:45,200
view. You and I are up up on front in a

1052
00:35:42,519 --> 00:35:46,480
panel. Two other people are there.

1053
00:35:45,199 --> 00:35:48,279
And

1054
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:50,599
I heard you speak.

1055
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:52,280
I'd only ever read what you wrote. Then

1056
00:35:50,599 --> 00:35:56,039
I heard you speak.

1057
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:58,440
It was more articulate and more barbed

1058
00:35:56,039 --> 00:36:01,000
than anything I'd ever read that you had

1059
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:04,840
written. And I said, "Oh my gosh, I'm

1060
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:07,559
glad we're on the same side because

1061
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:11,480
because if you had spoke to me, I'd feel

1062
00:36:07,559 --> 00:36:14,519
like a complete idiot. I would feel not

1063
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:16,679
worthy of life." And then I thought,

1064
00:36:14,519 --> 00:36:18,119
"You are so potent.

1065
00:36:16,679 --> 00:36:20,639
Is this

1066
00:36:18,119 --> 00:36:23,319
turning people off because they reject

1067
00:36:20,639 --> 00:36:25,440
it? Because you are not investing in how

1068
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:27,920
they think. Everybody has little

1069
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:29,920
receptors for receiving information. And

1070
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,320
if you're just going to say, 'I'm right

1071
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,920
and I know I'm right and you all are

1072
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:35,840
just wrong and you're idiots,'

1073
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,240
maybe that's not as effective as you can

1074
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,480
be. So, I

1075
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:42,079
challenged you to be a little more

1076
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:44,440
sensitive to people who are just trying

1077
00:36:42,079 --> 00:36:46,639
to explore the world and that you could

1078
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:49,440
be more effective than you are. Do you

1079
00:36:46,639 --> 00:36:51,319
remember your reply to me? I said,

1080
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,039
"I gratefully accept the rebuke." Yeah.

1081
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:55,640
By the way, in that moment, there was

1082
00:36:53,039 --> 00:36:57,039
like 5 seconds of silence cuz I'm just

1083
00:36:55,639 --> 00:37:01,199
some young whippersnapper and you're

1084
00:36:57,039 --> 00:37:03,440
like storied, famous guy on stage.

1085
00:37:01,199 --> 00:37:06,000
Nobody made a sound. In London, there

1086
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:07,800
was No no no no no no no. Just in that

1087
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,480
moment of silence, it's

1088
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,519
how is he going to react? It was one of

1089
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:14,039
these what's he going to say? In that

1090
00:37:11,519 --> 00:37:16,199
moment, it was total silence. And then

1091
00:37:14,039 --> 00:37:19,440
you broke the silence with "I gratefully

1092
00:37:16,199 --> 00:37:21,960
accept the rebuke." And then people were

1093
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:23,720
people got were calmed after that. Yes,

1094
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,159
and you gave a worse example. What was

1095
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:25,879
it? Do you remember?

1096
00:37:25,159 --> 00:37:27,480
The editor of

1097
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:29,720
yeah. The editor of New Scientist who

1098
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:30,920
who was asked,

1099
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,879
uh

1100
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,599
"What is your policy at New Scientist

1101
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,840
magazine?" And he said, "Our policy at

1102
00:37:34,599 --> 00:37:38,920
New Scientist magazine is science is

1103
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,680
interesting. If you don't agree, you can

1104
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,720
off."

1105
00:37:40,679 --> 00:37:45,879
So, so that was So, that's so we can

1106
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:48,239
feel better about you.

1107
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:50,720
The Greatest Show on Earth, 2009,

1108
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:52,799
subtitled The Evidence for Evolution.

1109
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:56,239
Was that motivated because around that

1110
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:57,560
time there was the rise of uh what they

1111
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,599
called intelligent design.

1112
00:37:57,559 --> 00:38:02,480
Well, that had come before. I mean, this

1113
00:37:59,599 --> 00:38:03,639
was um in a way, The Blind Watchmaker

1114
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,240
was a response to that.

1115
00:38:03,639 --> 00:38:06,960
Yes, of course.

1116
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:09,239
Um but um now this was ready to set out

1117
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:12,240
the evidence for evolution, which which

1118
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:14,519
I hadn't really done before. Mhm. I just

1119
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:17,399
sort of assumed it. So, You assumed that

1120
00:38:14,519 --> 00:38:19,079
everyone knew it. Well, not Well, not

1121
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,480
really. Well, yes, maybe. Yes, maybe.

1122
00:38:19,079 --> 00:38:21,159
Okay.

1123
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,400
Yeah. There's a lot of misunderstanding

1124
00:38:21,159 --> 00:38:25,679
I have found. People think that an

1125
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:29,840
organism adapts to its environment. And

1126
00:38:25,679 --> 00:38:31,519
I say, "No, it either survives or dies."

1127
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,280
Yes, that's right. Right. I mean,

1128
00:38:31,519 --> 00:38:36,400
there's And there's a great quote at the

1129
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:39,080
end of War of the Worlds, where as you

1130
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:41,280
remember, H. G. Wells, at the end,

1131
00:38:39,079 --> 00:38:44,719
there's a recitation,

1132
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:46,200
and he says, I'm paraphrasing, he says,

1133
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:49,599
"These These creatures from another

1134
00:38:46,199 --> 00:38:52,439
planet, they they were doomed, undone by

1135
00:38:49,599 --> 00:38:56,079
the smallest creatures on Earth

1136
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:58,440
uh where for to whom to which we had

1137
00:38:56,079 --> 00:39:01,840
developed immunity." Yes. And it ends

1138
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:04,920
with a very poetic phrase, "No man lives

1139
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:05,920
nor dies in vain."

1140
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,639
That

1141
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:10,440
through through the toll of a billion

1142
00:39:07,639 --> 00:39:12,719
deaths, man has bought his birthright on

1143
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:14,920
this Earth, and it is his against all

1144
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:16,919
comers, and it would have still been his

1145
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:20,519
had the Martians been 10 times as mighty

1146
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:22,960
as they are, because no no no man lives

1147
00:39:20,519 --> 00:39:24,239
nor dies in vain. And I And that I

1148
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:27,599
thought that was potent. He was, of

1149
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:30,439
course, scientifically literate, and he

1150
00:39:27,599 --> 00:39:31,960
he's saying there generations that die

1151
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:34,400
because they didn't have they can't make

1152
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:35,760
it through this next stress to the

1153
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,680
environment.

1154
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,040
It's

1155
00:39:36,679 --> 00:39:40,279
rather horrifying when you think that

1156
00:39:38,039 --> 00:39:42,679
actually that's what happened to the

1157
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:45,240
native South Americans when the Spanish

1158
00:39:42,679 --> 00:39:47,639
arrived, Um I mean that they were killed

1159
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:50,039
by by epidemics of things like measles

1160
00:39:47,639 --> 00:39:51,480
which they had no no

1161
00:39:50,039 --> 00:39:54,360
immunity.

1162
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:56,480
And in Europe built up an immunity to

1163
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:58,280
the to these diseases and But the better

1164
00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:00,920
analogy would have been had the South

1165
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:01,880
Americans wanted to invade Europe. Yes.

1166
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,039
They would have then died by the

1167
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:08,079
European diseases. But that's not how

1168
00:40:04,039 --> 00:40:09,199
Yes. European colonialism works.

1169
00:40:08,079 --> 00:40:11,799
Just a couple more books here. I'm

1170
00:40:09,199 --> 00:40:13,439
skipping over like a half a dozen with

1171
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:15,560
your permission.

1172
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:17,639
One that I delighted cuz not only cuz I

1173
00:40:15,559 --> 00:40:19,079
received a book a copy of it in the mail

1174
00:40:17,639 --> 00:40:21,319
from your publisher. It was just

1175
00:40:19,079 --> 00:40:24,400
delightfully done. Flights of Fancy

1176
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:26,680
Defying Gravity by Design and Evolution.

1177
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:29,440
That was 2021. Beautiful book,

1178
00:40:26,679 --> 00:40:29,879
illustrated. And who's the illustrator

1179
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,360
of that book?

1180
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:34,079
Yana Solova. She's Slovak.

1181
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,440
Just something that I think is under

1182
00:40:34,079 --> 00:40:37,759
appreciated

1183
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:39,679
in in this world cuz we can't fly. So

1184
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:41,200
especially in the idea that we're at the

1185
00:40:39,679 --> 00:40:42,839
top of the evolutionary scale and

1186
00:40:41,199 --> 00:40:46,159
everything else is less than us. What

1187
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:48,240
does the condor say about that?

1188
00:40:46,159 --> 00:40:49,879
Who flaps its wings once every 10

1189
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:52,719
minutes because it coasts the rest of

1190
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:54,200
the time. So just just a celebration of

1191
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:56,359
flight in the

1192
00:40:54,199 --> 00:40:58,239
in evolution. I I was delighted by that.

1193
00:40:56,360 --> 00:41:00,079
Thank you. That was sort of designed for

1194
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:02,959
young people. Started as a children's

1195
00:41:00,079 --> 00:41:02,960
Well, that's why I liked it.

1196
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,039
That that accounted for its its

1197
00:41:04,639 --> 00:41:09,000
accessibility. I mean it was just very

1198
00:41:06,039 --> 00:41:10,920
fun to to see the illustrations and

1199
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:13,079
and and the like. And right now there's

1200
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,920
a book coming out called

1201
00:41:13,079 --> 00:41:17,000
The Genetic Book of the Dead.

1202
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:18,840
Yes. A publisher actually let you use

1203
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:21,119
that title. Why wouldn't they?

1204
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,760
Cuz it's so it's like what? A Book of

1205
00:41:21,119 --> 00:41:23,599
the Dead?

1206
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:25,480
worries me. Well, I don't know. I think

1207
00:41:23,599 --> 00:41:27,039
it's rather an uplifting title. It it

1208
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,280
Genetic Book of the Dead.

1209
00:41:27,039 --> 00:41:30,440
Yes. It doesn't mean human dead. What's

1210
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:32,519
it does it have a subtitle? What's the

1211
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:34,800
subtitle of it? It does have a subtitle.

1212
00:41:32,519 --> 00:41:37,039
A Darwinian Reverie. So tell me about

1213
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:39,160
this book. I haven't read it yet. If you

1214
00:41:37,039 --> 00:41:41,159
if you look at a

1215
00:41:39,159 --> 00:41:43,839
highly camouflaged animal,

1216
00:41:41,159 --> 00:41:45,879
a a desert lizard is one that I use.

1217
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,880
It's got pebbles and sand all over its

1218
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,760
back. It's

1219
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:51,840
just a a dummy

1220
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:53,200
painting of a desert on its back. Okay?

1221
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,880
So

1222
00:41:53,199 --> 00:41:58,039
that is a description of the worlds in

1223
00:41:55,880 --> 00:42:01,559
which its ancestors lived. You can read

1224
00:41:58,039 --> 00:42:03,679
that animal as a book describing the

1225
00:42:01,559 --> 00:42:05,920
desert world in which its ancestors

1226
00:42:03,679 --> 00:42:08,639
lived. Now that's an easy example

1227
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:11,039
because it's got it painted on its back.

1228
00:42:08,639 --> 00:42:12,839
But it must be true right the way

1229
00:42:11,039 --> 00:42:14,599
through every bit of the every cell of

1230
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:16,480
the animal. Every molecule of the animal

1231
00:42:14,599 --> 00:42:17,440
has got the same

1232
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:19,240
uh

1233
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:22,240
description written

1234
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:23,959
And some of it is baggage. Baggage as in

1235
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:26,919
burdensome rather than

1236
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,599
Yes, but We have an appendix that can

1237
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:28,240
burst.

1238
00:42:27,599 --> 00:42:29,799
That's true.

1239
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:31,199
have a pinky toe. When's the last time

1240
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:33,960
you made good use of that?

1241
00:42:31,199 --> 00:42:37,159
You'd be surprised.

1242
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:41,000
The the point is that natural selection

1243
00:42:37,159 --> 00:42:44,079
is very very fussy. It's very very

1244
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:47,119
intricate in its in its choice.

1245
00:42:44,079 --> 00:42:49,920
Far more than we we we even know about.

1246
00:42:47,119 --> 00:42:52,799
We are poor judges of what's important

1247
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:54,360
for survival. And you think that

1248
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:56,560
the genes that survive going back to the

1249
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:58,280
selfish gene. The genes that survive

1250
00:42:56,559 --> 00:43:00,840
have to survive through lots and lots of

1251
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:03,440
different individuals and through a huge

1252
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:06,320
amount of geological time. And so any

1253
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:09,000
statistical estimate that you and I make

1254
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:12,080
about the likelihood that your pinky

1255
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:15,360
will be of any use to you is a

1256
00:43:12,079 --> 00:43:17,920
statistical mistake. Natural selection

1257
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:20,160
is a much better statistician than than

1258
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:23,000
we are. So I need to think harder about

1259
00:43:20,159 --> 00:43:24,399
my pinky toe. Well, natural selection

1260
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:26,760
has

1261
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:30,400
millions of years in which to choose

1262
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:32,440
between successful toes and unsuccessful

1263
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:35,079
toes. Um

1264
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:37,639
JBS Haldane did a calculation.

1265
00:43:35,079 --> 00:43:41,519
Uh JBS Haldane the great geneticist did

1266
00:43:37,639 --> 00:43:44,960
great did did a calculation. He imagined

1267
00:43:41,519 --> 00:43:47,559
a a feature like a toe. Some something

1268
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:50,320
that seems trivial to to to you. And he

1269
00:43:47,559 --> 00:43:52,840
said let's allow that it's

1270
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:56,039
so trivial that for every thousand

1271
00:43:52,840 --> 00:44:00,920
individuals who have it and survive, 999

1272
00:43:56,039 --> 00:44:03,119
die. This feature toe whatever it is has

1273
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:04,880
been repeated

1274
00:44:03,119 --> 00:44:06,440
thousands of times in lots of different

1275
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:09,119
individuals and through lots of

1276
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:10,960
different millions of of years.

1277
00:44:09,119 --> 00:44:12,279
And it's got to survive through all

1278
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:15,119
those times. I'm explaining this very

1279
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:18,000
badly. The the the main point is that we

1280
00:44:15,119 --> 00:44:19,400
are very bad estimators of what's

1281
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:22,000
important

1282
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:23,880
in natural selection is a is a much

1283
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:26,599
better estimator of that. Okay, how

1284
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:27,039
about male pattern baldness?

1285
00:44:26,599 --> 00:44:30,000
Well,

1286
00:44:27,039 --> 00:44:32,199
got that one. Well, that's that's a

1287
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:34,840
variable. I mean some people have it and

1288
00:44:32,199 --> 00:44:37,239
some people don't. You you might take

1289
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:40,120
another example um

1290
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:42,319
maybe fingerprints. Um

1291
00:44:40,119 --> 00:44:43,639
Why why do we have fingerprints? Well,

1292
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:44,680
the fact that they're different doesn't

1293
00:44:43,639 --> 00:44:46,079
matter. But

1294
00:44:44,679 --> 00:44:47,440
are they important for clinging onto the

1295
00:44:46,079 --> 00:44:49,400
trees when we were

1296
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,760
you know had our boreal ancestors? That

1297
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:52,200
kind of thing.

1298
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:54,000
Um

1299
00:44:52,199 --> 00:44:56,480
Oh, I see. So even if they're not useful

1300
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:57,480
now, they were useful to get us to where

1301
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:58,920
they are we are now.

1302
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,639
Hence the Genetic Book of the Dead. I

1303
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,760
mean we're talking about the talking

1304
00:45:00,639 --> 00:45:03,920
about the past.

1305
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:05,400
Yeah, you're right. There it is.

1306
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,400
The Genetic Book of the Dead.

1307
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:10,119
Yes. Enabling us to get to where we are

1308
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:12,000
at all. Yes. We are we are a description

1309
00:45:10,119 --> 00:45:14,839
of the worlds in which our dead

1310
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:16,280
ancestors survived until they until they

1311
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,680
died.

1312
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,920
Survived it long enough to reproduce.

1313
00:45:17,679 --> 00:45:20,599
Because if we didn't survive, we'd go

1314
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:22,840
we'd be extinct and we wouldn't be here

1315
00:45:20,599 --> 00:45:24,039
to talk about it in modern times. We

1316
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:25,760
well, I'm only here because our

1317
00:45:24,039 --> 00:45:26,400
ancestors survived long enough to

1318
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:29,040
reproduce.

1319
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:30,880
Yes. And they survived because of the

1320
00:45:29,039 --> 00:45:31,880
highly detailed features that that they

1321
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:33,680
had which their rivals didn't.

1322
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:34,960
think differently about my pinky toe.

1323
00:45:33,679 --> 00:45:36,799
Because without the pinky toe, there

1324
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:40,679
might have been some

1325
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:42,200
dead ancestor that would have ended that

1326
00:45:40,679 --> 00:45:42,960
branch of the tree of life. And we would

1327
00:45:42,199 --> 00:45:44,319
have never been here.

1328
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:46,039
That's right. Yes. Yeah. Do you have

1329
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:47,600
hope for a civilization

1330
00:45:46,039 --> 00:45:53,119
as it's currently manifested in the

1331
00:45:47,599 --> 00:45:54,639
world? I think we have to have hope to

1332
00:45:53,119 --> 00:45:56,599
to live our lives at all. It doesn't

1333
00:45:54,639 --> 00:46:00,559
mean that at an intellectual level I

1334
00:45:56,599 --> 00:46:02,880
necessarily have have but I I I I I live

1335
00:46:00,559 --> 00:46:06,759
my life as though I have hope. Yes.

1336
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:08,039
I've come I I've become

1337
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:11,920
cynical's not the right word. I've

1338
00:46:08,039 --> 00:46:13,559
become a practical cynic. It's

1339
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:17,920
There are people who think this way or

1340
00:46:13,559 --> 00:46:21,079
feel that way or behave this other way.

1341
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:22,039
And I I've stopped trying to change

1342
00:46:21,079 --> 00:46:23,759
them.

1343
00:46:22,039 --> 00:46:25,719
What I try to do is

1344
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:28,320
offer a way of looking at the world that

1345
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:31,639
maybe they'll take, maybe they won't.

1346
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:33,519
Maybe as an educator it's my job to make

1347
00:46:31,639 --> 00:46:35,079
this as tasty as possible so that hey,

1348
00:46:33,519 --> 00:46:36,400
that's a good idea. I never thought

1349
00:46:35,079 --> 00:46:38,960
about it that way.

1350
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:42,880
But otherwise, you know, I just gave a

1351
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:44,400
presentation to a Christian school.

1352
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:46,119
K through 12.

1353
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:47,800
I talked about

1354
00:46:46,119 --> 00:46:50,799
optics.

1355
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:52,680
And at the end there was open Q&A and

1356
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:56,280
they were 11th graders.

1357
00:46:52,679 --> 00:46:58,358
And they started grilling me on

1358
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:59,440
science versus the Bible.

1359
00:46:58,358 --> 00:47:01,799
And

1360
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:03,320
I said I'm not here to stop you from

1361
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:05,519
being religious

1362
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:07,680
at all. Okay, we live in a country that

1363
00:47:05,519 --> 00:47:09,840
protects your freedom

1364
00:47:07,679 --> 00:47:11,919
to be religious. And you're in a private

1365
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:13,840
school. So the government is not going

1366
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:16,880
to come after you and say you have to

1367
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:18,320
get this out of the public coffers.

1368
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:20,880
I made that clear, but I didn't have the

1369
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:22,680
urge to try to

1370
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:24,720
convert them.

1371
00:47:22,679 --> 00:47:27,079
And I get the sense that you you've had

1372
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:29,239
this urge your entire life

1373
00:47:27,079 --> 00:47:33,400
to convert people

1374
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:35,599
with no less zeal than a religious

1375
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:37,358
person a religious

1376
00:47:35,599 --> 00:47:39,759
um

1377
00:47:37,358 --> 00:47:41,519
evangelical a religious person would

1378
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:43,080
have trying to convert people who are

1379
00:47:41,519 --> 00:47:44,559
not that. Did I tell you I didn't tell

1380
00:47:43,079 --> 00:47:45,480
you this? We have a Big Bang Theater

1381
00:47:44,559 --> 00:47:47,639
here. Yes.

1382
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:50,079
back when we first opened here at the

1383
00:47:47,639 --> 00:47:51,639
Hayden Planetarium, um there's a

1384
00:47:50,079 --> 00:47:53,279
separate theater space where we just

1385
00:47:51,639 --> 00:47:55,839
talk about the Big Bang. Someone came

1386
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:57,160
out of the Big Bang, saw me and said uh

1387
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:58,240
how come you didn't mention God in

1388
00:47:57,159 --> 00:47:59,199
there?

1389
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:00,399
And

1390
00:47:59,199 --> 00:48:02,559
then I realized okay, what am I going to

1391
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:05,280
do? I say, how about this? Why don't you

1392
00:48:02,559 --> 00:48:07,000
go to our Hall of Human Evolution

1393
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:08,359
and then come back here.

1394
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:11,199
And when I tell them to do that, they

1395
00:48:08,358 --> 00:48:13,719
never come back because that's way more

1396
00:48:11,199 --> 00:48:15,759
offensive to them having you know

1397
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:18,319
monkeys and humans hold hands in the

1398
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:19,080
dioramas than anything we could ever say

1399
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:20,519
in the Big Bang here.

1400
00:48:19,079 --> 00:48:21,799
thought they'd rather like Big Bang. I

1401
00:48:20,519 --> 00:48:22,519
mean the Big Bang sounds pretty much

1402
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:24,960
like Genesis.

1403
00:48:22,519 --> 00:48:25,840
Well, it's creation event. Yeah. Maybe

1404
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:28,320
that's why they thought we should have

1405
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:29,320
mentioned God and didn't. But I I just I

1406
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:31,000
don't I don't even have the

1407
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:32,039
conversation. I just send them over to

1408
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:33,559
your part of the museum.

1409
00:48:32,039 --> 00:48:35,759
Yes. But I think you're being too

1410
00:48:33,559 --> 00:48:37,440
pusillanimous. You you shouldn't duck

1411
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:39,200
those questions. And um

1412
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:41,800
Well, I don't duck it so much as

1413
00:48:39,199 --> 00:48:43,358
sometimes I don't have the energy.

1414
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:45,200
Oh, that's different.

1415
00:48:43,358 --> 00:48:46,519
I I I get that too. You feel that. I

1416
00:48:45,199 --> 00:48:49,000
understand that.

1417
00:48:46,519 --> 00:48:51,400
Um but in the in my field, there really

1418
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:52,920
is an absolute opposition.

1419
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,760
It's not something you Complete.

1420
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:56,159
Although the Catholic Church, they've

1421
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:56,520
met you in the middle. Yeah, yeah, they

1422
00:48:56,159 --> 00:48:58,559
have.

1423
00:48:56,519 --> 00:49:01,599
They said we have this branch of

1424
00:48:58,559 --> 00:49:03,400
primates and then God breathed the soul

1425
00:49:01,599 --> 00:49:05,279
into them and and they're humans.

1426
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:07,039
Allowing evolution all up to that point.

1427
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:10,000
yeah. That's You got You got to give

1428
00:49:07,039 --> 00:49:13,079
give them some You got to knock.

1429
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:15,480
Not a step. Not a step.

1430
00:49:13,079 --> 00:49:17,039
But the world is not that binary.

1431
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:17,880
It's not that binary.

1432
00:49:17,039 --> 00:49:19,800
I don't see it that way.

1433
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:22,440
it is. There are religious people who

1434
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:25,400
are who where Jesus is their savior, but

1435
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:26,559
they're perfectly fine with a four and a

1436
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:29,000
half billion year old Earth.

1437
00:49:26,559 --> 00:49:30,599
Yes, they are. Okay. They're not at the

1438
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:34,358
extreme. They don't don't see the

1439
00:49:30,599 --> 00:49:36,679
contradiction. But but yes. So maybe the

1440
00:49:34,358 --> 00:49:38,840
plurality of the world is a feature

1441
00:49:36,679 --> 00:49:39,879
rather than a bug of the programming of

1442
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:42,120
what it is to be human.

1443
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:43,760
The truth is so much more grand and so

1444
00:49:42,119 --> 00:49:45,480
much more elegant and so much more

1445
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:46,320
poetic and so much

1446
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:49,639
uh

1447
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:50,120
more beautiful. Why drag

1448
00:49:49,639 --> 00:49:51,639
Jesus in

1449
00:49:50,119 --> 00:49:54,199
And I would still claim you could get

1450
00:49:51,639 --> 00:49:55,559
more of that across if people didn't

1451
00:49:54,199 --> 00:49:57,399
feel stupid talking to you.

1452
00:49:55,559 --> 00:49:59,000
yeah, that that's true. Uh so you're a

1453
00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:59,440
professor at Oxford? Are you retired

1454
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:01,360
yet? Did you

1455
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:03,119
retired. You retired, okay. And you were

1456
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:03,400
professor of Public understanding of

1457
00:50:03,119 --> 00:50:06,839
science.

1458
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:10,079
Yes, I remembered that. That was a a a a

1459
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:12,160
a post created by Charles Simonyi.

1460
00:50:10,079 --> 00:50:16,279
To Charles Simonyi, yes.

1461
00:50:12,159 --> 00:50:17,960
Uh and he he created multiples of those

1462
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:18,240
around the world. That wasn't the only

1463
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:20,800
one.

1464
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:23,479
he he he he wasn't it wasn't at the

1465
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:24,200
Princeton advanced Yeah, the Institute

1466
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:25,920
for Advanced Study, maybe? Okay.

1467
00:50:24,199 --> 00:50:27,399
that's right. Yes. I think that was in a

1468
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:29,639
different field. I think that was Oh,

1469
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:31,639
okay. Okay, but I it's interesting He's

1470
00:50:29,639 --> 00:50:32,679
a very generous Yeah, if you're wealthy

1471
00:50:31,639 --> 00:50:34,599
and you want to make a change in the

1472
00:50:32,679 --> 00:50:34,919
world, that's a way to sort of keep that

1473
00:50:34,599 --> 00:50:36,599
going.

1474
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:38,599
Absolutely, yeah. And there's another

1475
00:50:36,599 --> 00:50:39,719
professorship somewhere in the UK, a

1476
00:50:38,599 --> 00:50:43,039
professorship of the public

1477
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:45,000
understanding of risk. That is That is a

1478
00:50:43,039 --> 00:50:46,519
that's a professorship.

1479
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:49,119
And forgive me, I don't remember where,

1480
00:50:46,519 --> 00:50:52,400
but I know that exists. And people have

1481
00:50:49,119 --> 00:50:54,359
no way to judge or to think about that

1482
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:54,639
as a challenge in their lives.

1483
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:57,480
So

1484
00:50:54,639 --> 00:50:58,239
is a fascinating subject. People get get

1485
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:00,559
so wrong.

1486
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:02,479
Yes, yes. Even smart people get that

1487
00:51:00,559 --> 00:51:04,880
wrong. People who would otherwise think

1488
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:07,000
should be smart don't get it.

1489
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:07,559
Well, Richard has been a delight As

1490
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:09,800
always, thank you so much.

1491
00:51:07,559 --> 00:51:12,360
have you here. Let me just end this with

1492
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:15,240
some brief reflections. Those among us

1493
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:17,440
who are educated

1494
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:18,279
on a level where you can't just hold it

1495
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:20,960
in,

1496
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:23,280
you have to sort of share the knowledge,

1497
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:24,679
wisdom, insights

1498
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:26,920
one gleans

1499
00:51:24,679 --> 00:51:29,199
from having committed your life

1500
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:30,760
to studying a subject and its related

1501
00:51:29,199 --> 00:51:33,879
components.

1502
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:35,200
And Richard Dawkins is an example of

1503
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:36,640
that.

1504
00:51:35,199 --> 00:51:37,759
Carl Sagan used to say when you're in

1505
00:51:36,639 --> 00:51:40,519
love,

1506
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:42,680
you want to tell the world.

1507
00:51:40,519 --> 00:51:45,559
And

1508
00:51:42,679 --> 00:51:47,199
whether the two dozen books on this list

1509
00:51:45,559 --> 00:51:50,320
that I just read,

1510
00:51:47,199 --> 00:51:53,079
uh this is Professor Dawkins

1511
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:55,000
can't can't contain his love.

1512
00:51:53,079 --> 00:51:57,119
He's got to share it

1513
00:51:55,000 --> 00:52:00,280
for all those

1514
00:51:57,119 --> 00:52:02,480
who seek a deeper understanding

1515
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:03,680
of life,

1516
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:05,280
not only

1517
00:52:03,679 --> 00:52:06,960
their own lives,

1518
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:08,200
the lives of everyone around them, and

1519
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:10,280
the lives

1520
00:52:08,199 --> 00:52:12,199
of all that came before us, and the

1521
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:14,640
lives of all those

1522
00:52:12,199 --> 00:52:16,559
yet to be born.

1523
00:52:14,639 --> 00:52:18,119
But in there are messages of protecting

1524
00:52:16,559 --> 00:52:20,400
our civilization

1525
00:52:18,119 --> 00:52:23,559
because without it, there will be no

1526
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:25,119
future lives to be born.

1527
00:52:23,559 --> 00:52:26,400
And then what of our branch in the tree

1528
00:52:25,119 --> 00:52:27,719
of life?

1529
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:29,840
We can't let the roaches and the rats

1530
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:32,639
take over after us.

1531
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:32,640
Help us.

1532
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:37,760
That is a cosmic perspective.

1533
00:52:36,039 --> 00:52:40,960
Neil deGrasse Tyson here, your personal

1534
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:43,920
astrophysicist. As always, I bid you

1535
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:43,920
to keep looking up.

1536
00:52:44,159 --> 00:53:05,969
[Music]